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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2006

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Gestational diabetes: answers to my earlier questions

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Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 03 Jan 2006 22:45 GMT
Hello everyone,

As promised I'm following up with the answers I received from my nurse
practitioner concerning my gestational diabetes (GD) questions.  For
those who haven't been following, the questions were regarding what
sort of danger snacking on bad carbs can present in between the times
that I monitor my blood sugar.

The nurse practitioner (this is at Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston
- a highly respected research hospital affiliated with Harvard
University) took my questions to the gestational diabetes specialist RN
and called me back with the answers.

Please note that I'm paraphrasing here and may have misunderstood some
of the points the nurse made, but for what it's worth, this is what
I've learnt:

She confirmed that normal blood sugar numbers in pregnancy are higher
than when a woman is not pregnant, and therefore someone with GD cannot
be compared to a regular diabetic as far as numbers and insulin needs
go.  In GD, when we monitor blood glucose we want the numbers to be
between 80 (fasting) and 140 (one hour after a meal).  This corresponds
to the latest guideliness, and may differ from information women would
have received in the past on this subject.

We test at the hour post prandial because that is the most reliable
number for someone watching their carb intake, since bad carbs cause
the spike to happen within the hour.

We want to avoid spikes, so if I'm not sure if I should have had a
particular snack, I should test one hour afterwards to see whether it's
caused a spike.  If my number is less than 140 then that snack is
acceptable.

Regarding insulin, she said my numbers would have to be consistently
over 140 and my fasting numbers consistently over 90 in order for
insulin to be indicated.

Again, all of this applies to Gestational Diabetes and may not have
anything to do with standard practice for Type I or II diabetes.

In my particular case, I know for sure that the GD developed in the
seventh month because my blood was checked several times prior and the
glucose levels were fine.  Also, at this stage in the pregnancy, the
risks of GD are not at all comparable to the risks Type I or II
diabetes poses in pregnancy, since GD does not enter into play until
the baby's organs have long finished forming.

For anyone interested in learning more about Gestational Diabetes,
please look at Brigham & Women's website:

"http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp?fileName=11834.xml&tit
le=Gestational%20Diabetes
"

I appreciate everyone's kind concern and good advice and wish you all
the best!
Wooly - 03 Jan 2006 23:20 GMT
I'll throw in a note that GDM is (usually) the first diagnosis of T2
diabetes for many women.  After you have the baby you should continue
to spot-check your BG, watch your carb intake and keep your weight
down.  If your BG begins to creep (fasting over 80, 2 hours
post-prandial over 140) you should see your doctor.

Wooly
Formerly GDM, now T2

+++++++++++++

Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.  
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
Ozgirl - 03 Jan 2006 23:45 GMT
> Hello everyone,
>
> As promised I'm following up with the answers I received from my nurse
> practitioner concerning my gestational diabetes (GD) questions.

Penelope, I am very sorry to hear that you only got advice
from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140
with insulin in my pregnancies as far back as 12 years ago.
I really can't emphasise enough, the need to see an
endocrinologist, preferably a private one. GD pregnancies
definitely need to have numbers lower than a normal type 1
or 2 outside of pregnancy. People will make up their own
minds according to the medical information they receive. I
am one who will happily seek further advice if something
doesn't "gel". But unfortunately one has to realise
something is out of kilter before they will do that. I wish
you the very best with your outcome, which I am sure will be
good, considering the time frame within which you were
diagnosed (e.g. late pregnancy). Do be aware that future
pregnancies may result in your having GD within that crucial
first trimester and the outcome may not be as good.

The following distresses me:

"She confirmed that normal blood sugar numbers in pregnancy
are higher
than when a woman is not pregnant, and therefore someone
with GD cannot be compared to a regular diabetic as far as
numbers and insulin needs go.  In GD, when we monitor blood
glucose we want the numbers to be between 80 (fasting) and
140 (one hour after a meal)."

The body sees no difference to a GD, type 1 or type 2
mother. The bg's all have the same result on the growing
baby. Bg's can be brought into line with insulin for most
people. From the day I was diagnosed with GD each time, I
saw ob/gyn AND endo weekly. I wasn't able to be under the
care of a midwife or hospital ob/gyn - my ob care was under
the head of gyn. I wasn't allowed to make use of the
birthing room, only the traditional delivery room. I had to
write down everything I ate, what time, the amounts of carb,
the test results and show the endo each week.  He then
adjusted insulin accordingly. If my numbers rose between the
weekly visits I had to ring him and get advice. I think the
above advice to you shortchanges you badly. It gives a false
sense of security because it came from someone in the
medical field. I would never trust an RN for my pregnancy
diabetic care, ever.
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 00:14 GMT
> > Hello everyone,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140
> with insulin in my pregnancies as far back as 12 years ago.

I do appreciate your concern, Ozgirl, but from what I'm told the
guidelines have changed since 12 years ago when it comes to GD.

Also, I am able to control my blood glucose with diet and have reported
my numbers to the nurse and nutritionist, and they're happy with them.
That is why I was not required to see an endocrinologist (the nurse did
originally set up an appointment for me automatically when I failed the
GTT but she cancelled it when I reported my numbers after five days of
monitoring).  Trust me, they are following their standard procedure
here to the letter.  This is litigation-happy USA we're talking about,
the hospital wouldn't let me walk away with GD if they suspected I
needed insulin.  This particular hospital is well known for their GD
department and I doubt very much that they're taking chances with any
patient.

As an exercise I actually monitored my glucose all day yesterday, per
advice received on this group: fasting, half an hour after 'bad carb'
snack, one hour after snack, one and a half hours after snack and two
hours after snack, as well as one and two hours after my meals.  None
of the numbers were outside the range I was told to stick to.

In addition to the hospital trusting me to eat correctly, I am also
motivated not to end up needing insulin after having read that insulin
therapy of GD hasn't been proven to change outcomes, and side-effects
haven't been thoroughly studied.

Read the Cochrane Review's paper on this here:

"http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/AB003395.htm"
Ozgirl - 04 Jan 2006 01:21 GMT
> > "Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward" <penelope@rescueteam.com>
> > wrote in message

news:1136328327.007516.317500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I do appreciate your concern, Ozgirl, but from what I'm told the
> guidelines have changed since 12 years ago when it comes to GD.

Yes, they have improved, not gone backwards. My endo was
expecting lower numbers 12 years ago than you are being
advised to achieve today. With further studies into GD,
lower levels held more of a guarantee in preventing birth
defects etc than the numbers you are being advised to aim
for. Obviously you are going to do what you think is right
for you but for me, I would be erring on the side of caution
when it comes to the health and well being of a baby.

> Also, I am able to control my blood glucose with diet and have reported
> my numbers to the nurse and nutritionist, and they're happy with them.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> monitoring).  Trust me, they are following their standard procedure
> here to the letter.

That doesn't mean the guidelines are acceptable. Those
guidelines are the same that *were* in use for type 2 yet GD
has to be lower than that.

> Read the Cochrane Review's paper on this here:
>
> "http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/AB003395.htm"

Um, that review was about IT and there was insufficient data
for reliable conclusions to be made.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS00316/DSECTION=8

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3
073066&dopt=Abstract


"In a prospective controlled trial, we studied the effect of
tight metabolic control on the outcomes of 102 gestational
diabetes mellitus (GDM) pregnancies compared with outcomes
of 102 matched nondiabetic control pregnancies. Women with
GDM were treated to achieve and maintain a blood glucose
concentration of less than 130 mg/dl at 1 h after breakfast.
Treatment consisted of a diet low in oligosaccharides and
fat and, if necessary, once daily insulin. By the end of
gestation, 88 of the 102 women with GDM received insulin at
a mean dose of 18 U/day. Duration of insulin therapy ranged
from 3 to 32 wk with a median of 11 wk. Perinatal outcome of
GDM pregnancies under this management equaled that of
control pregnancies. The full spectrum of excess morbidity
from GDM was prevented, and normal distribution of birth
weight and normal rates of macrosomia, dystrophy,
hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia, hyperbilirubinemia, fetal
acidosis, and low Apgar scores were achieved. No mortality
was observed. In addition to the two main study groups, we
also studied a third group of 24 women with GDM whose
treatment lasted less than or equal to 5 wk due to late
diagnosis. This suboptimally treated group demonstrated a
significant (P less than .05) increase of macrosomia and
umbilical artery acidosis compared with the well-treated GDM
group. The study reported herein demonstrates that excess
mortality and morbidity typically observed in GDM can be
prevented by early institution of tight metabolic control,
which required insulin in 86% of our patients."

http://tinyurl.com/7pmnm :

"The classification, diagnosis, treatment and follow-up of
patients with GDM were performed according to the specific
recommendations proposed by American Diabetes Association
(1) and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology
(2). During the study period 1980-1989, patients with
fasting glucose levels of >5.8mmol/L or postprandial levels
of >7.8 mmol/L were given insulin treatment. Between 1990
and 1992, patients were also instructed to aim maintain a
plasma glucose level of 5.8 mmol/L. As of 1993 insulin was
started at fasting levels of =5.3 mmol/L and/or 2-h
postprandial levels of 6.6 mmol/l, and the glycemic goal was
set at =5.3 mmol/L."

5.3=95
6.6=118

Note the change of bg goal changed between 1990 and 1992 and
the change for insulin introduction in 1993. I became
pregnant with my 4th GD in 1994 and the above guidelines
were what my endo used. So you can see that guidelines
changed as far back as 1993.

"We hypothesized that in the management of pregnancies with
GDM combining early detection and strict metabolic control
with early induction of labor near term- to avoid excessive
fetal growth in utero, could lead to more favorable
perinatal outcome. To test this assumption, we studied
pregnancy outcome in GDM patients compared with the non-GDM
normal pregnant population over a period of 18 years in
which none, some, or all of these criteria were applied. The
results indicate a gradual and constant decline in several
important feto-maternal complications (for comprehensive
data, see reference 3).During the last follow up period
(1993-1998), the target normoglycemic level was lowered to
=5.3 mmol/L, strict metabolic control was implemented, and
labor was induced at a lower mean gestational age according
to the EFW. It is only after applying all three aspects of
the management policy together that we succeeded to decrease
the complications occurring in GDM patients to rates that
compared favorably with those observed in the general
non-GDM population."
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 05:14 GMT
Ozgirl, thanks for this. The first link you gave me seems to have the
latest data as it references a study conducted in 2005:

(http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS00316/DSECTION=8

)

It says the goal of aggressive treatment was to maintain tight control
of blood glucose. "The blood glucose goals for this group were 63 to 99
milligrams of glucose per deciliter (mg/dL) for fasting blood sugar and
126 mg/dL or lower two hours after meals."  The cutoffs I was given
(fasting no higher than 90, and two hours after a meal no higher than
120) are more agressive still, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing
with.

Your second link references a study from 1988 so I'll ignore that,
although again the numbers I'm given are more agressive. Your third
link also references an older study, from 1999, but even so my numbers
are more agressive for the fasting level and only two points higher for
two hours post-prandial.

My link, on the other hand, is of a review dated 2002, so the reviewers
have had at their disposal all of the papers you quote and still wasn't
able to conclude that insulin therapy made a difference in the outcomes
of women diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

Again, please remember that GD is NOT the same as Type I or II
diabetes, as it develops in the sixth and seventh month of pregnancy,
when birth defects can no longer be formed.  The risks of GD are more
to do with labour complications.  This is by no means the same thing.

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I have looked at all your links
carefully, and if you hadn't told me of the fact that blood glucose
could spike after the first hour I would never have thought to do my
experiment and test on the second hour as well.  So I am glad that you
wrote and I am glad that I was able to learn that I am still in control
of my blood glucose despite my occasional bad carb snack.  What I may
have failed to make clear was that the bad carbs I do consume I only
have in the carb quantities recommended for snacks, so I am not being
as reckless as you seem to fear.

If it's a consolation, I'm seeing my OB/GYN on Friday and will again
mention that the numbers I was given are contested by my new friends on
alt.support.diabetes, to see whether she can show me some studies that
support the hospital's guidelines.  If I do get further info, I'll be
sure to post it here.

And yes, if I have a future pregnancy, I will be tested early for GD
having had a history of it in the current pregnancy.  That is standard
practice at the hospital where I go, so I am not concerned about that.
Ozgirl - 04 Jan 2006 08:40 GMT
> Ozgirl, thanks for this. The first link you gave me seems to have the
> latest data as it references a study conducted in 2005:

(http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS003
16/DSECTION=8

> )
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 120) are more agressive still, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing
> with.

The 140 you have mentioned a few times. Your bg should not
be allowed to go to 140 at any point without insulin
intervention. I haven't seen you mention 120 at all - one
example "If my number is less than 140 then that snack is
acceptable". What if it is 139? Your nurse said that if bg
had to be over 140 then insulin is indicated. Given meter
error, that 139 could be 145 or more. That is contradictory
to all the studies which say insulin should be started if
numbers reach 118.

> Your second link references a study from 1988 so I'll ignore that,
> although again the numbers I'm given are more agressive. Your third
> link also references an older study, from 1999, but even so my numbers
> are more agressive for the fasting level and only two points higher for
> two hours post-prandial.

The studies started in something like 1980 and goals were
downwardly revised as time went by and effects of tighter
control became obvious. By 1993 "As of 1993 insulin was
started at fasting levels of =5.3 mmol/L and/or 2-h
postprandial levels of 6.6 mmol/l, and the glycemic goal was
set at =5.3 mmol/L." 6.6=118 not 140.

> My link, on the other hand, is of a review dated 2002, so the reviewers
> have had at their disposal all of the papers you quote and still wasn't
> able to conclude that insulin therapy made a difference in the outcomes
> of women diagnosed with gestational diabetes.

Your link talked about IGT even though it seemed to be GD at
first glance.

> I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I have looked at all
your links
> carefully, and if you hadn't told me of the fact that blood glucose
> could spike after the first hour I would never have thought to do my
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> have in the carb quantities recommended for snacks, so I am not being
> as reckless as you seem to fear.

I am not saying you are reckless. It's just that I have read
about GD intensively and I had a huge amount of information
before my computer crash. Numbers like you are quoting were
few and far between when goal recommendations were stated.
Nearly all the studies I researched had the much lower
goals. "During the last follow up period
(1993-1998), the target normoglycemic level was lowered to
=5.3 mmol/L, strict metabolic control was implemented, and
labor was induced at a lower mean gestational age according
to the EFW. It is only after applying all three aspects of
the management policy together that *we succeeded to
decrease
the complications occurring in GDM patients to rates that
compared favorably with those observed in the general
non-GDM population*."

If decrease in complications was only successful when the
new guidelines were followed doesn't it make sense that that
previous upper limits set were not as successful as they
needed to be?

>Again, please remember that GD is NOT the same as Type I or II
>diabetes, as it develops in the sixth and seventh month of pregnancy,
>when birth defects can no longer be formed.

Penelope, I am not sure who told you that but it is isn't an
absolute (there is a huge amount of information going around
the internet that tell that almost the only problem of GD is
a large baby!). It has been found in me well within the1st
trimester - I felt symptomatic and requested an early test.
The first time it was found at the routine glucose test at
18 weeks (that's a lot earlier than what appears to be the
norm for your hospital). Confirmed by GTT. Each successive
pregnancy I got it earlier - the last two being very early.
The effects of GD developed later in pregnancy isn't just
about labour (and you don't know when you actually developed
it). There is the life threatening pre eclampsia - life
threatening for you and the baby - in most cases the baby
has to be born NOW, regardless of its gestational age),
preterm labour, an underdeveloped but large baby, baby being
born with extremely low bg, developing jaundice, can have
breathing problems, hypocalcemia, neural tube defects (once
again, no one knows how long they have had GD with tests
only being given later in pregnancy as seems to be the case
in some places).

I think you have been given all the information you need
from a few sources to make the decision about how tight your
control needs to be. In my opinion (which may vary to
anyone's else's opinion) is that it is a very short time to
sacrifice to give a baby its absolute best chances. No
different in my opinion to skipping the alcohol, cigarettes
or over the counter headache pill. I do wish you good luck
Penelope, I just felt I should give you a broader outlook
than the one you have been given. Being educated allows the
decision making to be easier I feel.
David - 04 Jan 2006 16:01 GMT
> The 140 you have mentioned a few times. Your bg should not
> be allowed to go to 140 at any point without insulin
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to all the studies which say insulin should be started if
> numbers reach 118.

That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd
never know it...

dave
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 17:25 GMT
> That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd
never know it...

Dave and Ozgirl, your concern truly is very kind, even if you have been
missing some of my posts in the avalanche...  I did say that the number
I was to stick to at the 2-hour mark was 120 or less.

I will stop reading this newsgroup now, as I think I've received all
the information I needed.  I do appreciate everyone's help, believe me,
but the atmosphere is a little bit panicky.  I have made it quite clear
(unless people have missed my posts) that my blood was tested on
numerous occasions throughout my pregnancy for a different reason, and
GTT was not indicated until the sixth month when it's routinely
administered at the hospital where I'm being seen.

I have also made it clear that my providers are happy with the way I'm
controlling my bgs with diet alone and that the endocrinologist would
have been involved had my numbers been outside of the current
guidelines.  I have also indicated that this hospital has a superb
reputation for treating GD so I have no reason to believe I am being
misled.  Additionally, I have at the suggestion received here also
tested my levels throughout the day to see if there were spikes I was
missing, and again my numbers were fine.

So I thank you all and I bid you goodbye.
David - 04 Jan 2006 17:34 GMT
>>That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> So I thank you all and I bid you goodbye.

yup, guess I missed something along the way.  Take care!

dave
Julie Bove - 04 Jan 2006 01:29 GMT
> Penelope, I am very sorry to hear that you only got advice
> from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> definitely need to have numbers lower than a normal type 1
> or 2 outside of pregnancy.

I agree with you there!  Unfortunately in this country, this isn't always
the case.  My Ob/Gyn did send me to an Endo. for my thryoid problem, but the
Endo. refused to address the GD because the Ob/Gyn was.  I really wish the
Endo. had been treating it and then perhaps I would not have the
complications I do today!  As for the lower numbers during pregnancy, this
is very much true.  I have seen no evidence of it being otherwise.  I bought
that huge, expensive book on diabetes that is intended for Drs. and it
doesn't not lower the numbers for GD.

I also would not take advice during pregnancy from an RN.  I can't tell you
how much bad advice I was given by them.

>People will make up their own
> minds according to the medical information they receive. I
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> pregnancies may result in your having GD within that crucial
> first trimester and the outcome may not be as good.

And that's one problem with pregnancy.  Especially if it's your first.  I
was given so much conflicting advice and I was so stressed out with my
husband being overseas, my family in another state, and me just not feeling
well to begin with.

> The following distresses me:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> glucose we want the numbers to be between 80 (fasting) and
> 140 (one hour after a meal)."

This simply is not true!  My Ob/Gyn said it is possible to have sugar in the
urine and for it to be normal, especially when lactation is beginning.  But
if it is found, it needs a followup.  And any elevated BG needs a followup.
Elevated BG during pregnancy is certainly NOT normal!

> The body sees no difference to a GD, type 1 or type 2
> mother. The bg's all have the same result on the growing
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> medical field. I would never trust an RN for my pregnancy
> diabetic care, ever.

I wasn't put on insulin, but did use the birthing room.  I wasn't allowed to
carry beyond term though.  I had already warned that I would be induced on
my due date if I hadn't already had the baby.  But I was induced one day
before since I had developed protein in my urine and they suspected the
start of pre-eclampsia.

Signature

See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm

Loretta Eisenberg - 03 Jan 2006 23:52 GMT
I am so happy you got the right answers to your questions.  Please let
us know when the baby is born,.  Good luck

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
David - 04 Jan 2006 00:44 GMT
> Hello everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> I appreciate everyone's kind concern and good advice and wish you all
> the best!

140, huh?  sounds  a bit lax from what I've heard others (not here--I'm
talking friends in RL) comment on during pregnancies.  oh well, I guess
you'll follow the guidelines given?  I looked at the link.  under diet:
avoid foods high in sugar and fat.

Dave
W.M.McKee - 04 Jan 2006 14:08 GMT
>Hello everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>University) took my questions to the gestational diabetes specialist RN
>and called me back with the answers.

Good luck, and I am sure I speak for us all, when I wish you all the
best. It sounds like you have a good plan and like you are in good
hands. Just stay on top of it, and you'll be fine!

Will, T2
 
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