Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2006
Gestational diabetes: answers to my earlier questions
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Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 03 Jan 2006 22:45 GMT Hello everyone,
As promised I'm following up with the answers I received from my nurse practitioner concerning my gestational diabetes (GD) questions. For those who haven't been following, the questions were regarding what sort of danger snacking on bad carbs can present in between the times that I monitor my blood sugar.
The nurse practitioner (this is at Brigham & Women's Hospital in Boston - a highly respected research hospital affiliated with Harvard University) took my questions to the gestational diabetes specialist RN and called me back with the answers.
Please note that I'm paraphrasing here and may have misunderstood some of the points the nurse made, but for what it's worth, this is what I've learnt:
She confirmed that normal blood sugar numbers in pregnancy are higher than when a woman is not pregnant, and therefore someone with GD cannot be compared to a regular diabetic as far as numbers and insulin needs go. In GD, when we monitor blood glucose we want the numbers to be between 80 (fasting) and 140 (one hour after a meal). This corresponds to the latest guideliness, and may differ from information women would have received in the past on this subject.
We test at the hour post prandial because that is the most reliable number for someone watching their carb intake, since bad carbs cause the spike to happen within the hour.
We want to avoid spikes, so if I'm not sure if I should have had a particular snack, I should test one hour afterwards to see whether it's caused a spike. If my number is less than 140 then that snack is acceptable.
Regarding insulin, she said my numbers would have to be consistently over 140 and my fasting numbers consistently over 90 in order for insulin to be indicated.
Again, all of this applies to Gestational Diabetes and may not have anything to do with standard practice for Type I or II diabetes.
In my particular case, I know for sure that the GD developed in the seventh month because my blood was checked several times prior and the glucose levels were fine. Also, at this stage in the pregnancy, the risks of GD are not at all comparable to the risks Type I or II diabetes poses in pregnancy, since GD does not enter into play until the baby's organs have long finished forming.
For anyone interested in learning more about Gestational Diabetes, please look at Brigham & Women's website:
"http://healthgate.partners.org/browsing/browseContent.asp?fileName=11834.xml&tit le=Gestational%20Diabetes"
I appreciate everyone's kind concern and good advice and wish you all the best!
Wooly - 03 Jan 2006 23:20 GMT I'll throw in a note that GDM is (usually) the first diagnosis of T2 diabetes for many women. After you have the baby you should continue to spot-check your BG, watch your carb intake and keep your weight down. If your BG begins to creep (fasting over 80, 2 hours post-prandial over 140) you should see your doctor.
Wooly Formerly GDM, now T2
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Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET. This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%. Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...
Ozgirl - 03 Jan 2006 23:45 GMT > Hello everyone, > > As promised I'm following up with the answers I received from my nurse > practitioner concerning my gestational diabetes (GD) questions. Penelope, I am very sorry to hear that you only got advice from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140 with insulin in my pregnancies as far back as 12 years ago. I really can't emphasise enough, the need to see an endocrinologist, preferably a private one. GD pregnancies definitely need to have numbers lower than a normal type 1 or 2 outside of pregnancy. People will make up their own minds according to the medical information they receive. I am one who will happily seek further advice if something doesn't "gel". But unfortunately one has to realise something is out of kilter before they will do that. I wish you the very best with your outcome, which I am sure will be good, considering the time frame within which you were diagnosed (e.g. late pregnancy). Do be aware that future pregnancies may result in your having GD within that crucial first trimester and the outcome may not be as good.
The following distresses me:
"She confirmed that normal blood sugar numbers in pregnancy are higher than when a woman is not pregnant, and therefore someone with GD cannot be compared to a regular diabetic as far as numbers and insulin needs go. In GD, when we monitor blood glucose we want the numbers to be between 80 (fasting) and 140 (one hour after a meal)."
The body sees no difference to a GD, type 1 or type 2 mother. The bg's all have the same result on the growing baby. Bg's can be brought into line with insulin for most people. From the day I was diagnosed with GD each time, I saw ob/gyn AND endo weekly. I wasn't able to be under the care of a midwife or hospital ob/gyn - my ob care was under the head of gyn. I wasn't allowed to make use of the birthing room, only the traditional delivery room. I had to write down everything I ate, what time, the amounts of carb, the test results and show the endo each week. He then adjusted insulin accordingly. If my numbers rose between the weekly visits I had to ring him and get advice. I think the above advice to you shortchanges you badly. It gives a false sense of security because it came from someone in the medical field. I would never trust an RN for my pregnancy diabetic care, ever.
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 00:14 GMT > > Hello everyone, > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140 > with insulin in my pregnancies as far back as 12 years ago. I do appreciate your concern, Ozgirl, but from what I'm told the guidelines have changed since 12 years ago when it comes to GD.
Also, I am able to control my blood glucose with diet and have reported my numbers to the nurse and nutritionist, and they're happy with them. That is why I was not required to see an endocrinologist (the nurse did originally set up an appointment for me automatically when I failed the GTT but she cancelled it when I reported my numbers after five days of monitoring). Trust me, they are following their standard procedure here to the letter. This is litigation-happy USA we're talking about, the hospital wouldn't let me walk away with GD if they suspected I needed insulin. This particular hospital is well known for their GD department and I doubt very much that they're taking chances with any patient.
As an exercise I actually monitored my glucose all day yesterday, per advice received on this group: fasting, half an hour after 'bad carb' snack, one hour after snack, one and a half hours after snack and two hours after snack, as well as one and two hours after my meals. None of the numbers were outside the range I was told to stick to.
In addition to the hospital trusting me to eat correctly, I am also motivated not to end up needing insulin after having read that insulin therapy of GD hasn't been proven to change outcomes, and side-effects haven't been thoroughly studied.
Read the Cochrane Review's paper on this here:
"http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/AB003395.htm"
Ozgirl - 04 Jan 2006 01:21 GMT > > "Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward" <penelope@rescueteam.com> > > wrote in message news:1136328327.007516.317500@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Hello everyone, > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I do appreciate your concern, Ozgirl, but from what I'm told the > guidelines have changed since 12 years ago when it comes to GD. Yes, they have improved, not gone backwards. My endo was expecting lower numbers 12 years ago than you are being advised to achieve today. With further studies into GD, lower levels held more of a guarantee in preventing birth defects etc than the numbers you are being advised to aim for. Obviously you are going to do what you think is right for you but for me, I would be erring on the side of caution when it comes to the health and well being of a baby.
> Also, I am able to control my blood glucose with diet and have reported > my numbers to the nurse and nutritionist, and they're happy with them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > monitoring). Trust me, they are following their standard procedure > here to the letter. That doesn't mean the guidelines are acceptable. Those guidelines are the same that *were* in use for type 2 yet GD has to be lower than that.
> Read the Cochrane Review's paper on this here: > > "http://www.cochrane.org/cochrane/revabstr/AB003395.htm" Um, that review was about IT and there was insufficient data for reliable conclusions to be made.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS00316/DSECTION=8
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3 073066&dopt=Abstract
"In a prospective controlled trial, we studied the effect of tight metabolic control on the outcomes of 102 gestational diabetes mellitus (GDM) pregnancies compared with outcomes of 102 matched nondiabetic control pregnancies. Women with GDM were treated to achieve and maintain a blood glucose concentration of less than 130 mg/dl at 1 h after breakfast. Treatment consisted of a diet low in oligosaccharides and fat and, if necessary, once daily insulin. By the end of gestation, 88 of the 102 women with GDM received insulin at a mean dose of 18 U/day. Duration of insulin therapy ranged from 3 to 32 wk with a median of 11 wk. Perinatal outcome of GDM pregnancies under this management equaled that of control pregnancies. The full spectrum of excess morbidity from GDM was prevented, and normal distribution of birth weight and normal rates of macrosomia, dystrophy, hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia, hyperbilirubinemia, fetal acidosis, and low Apgar scores were achieved. No mortality was observed. In addition to the two main study groups, we also studied a third group of 24 women with GDM whose treatment lasted less than or equal to 5 wk due to late diagnosis. This suboptimally treated group demonstrated a significant (P less than .05) increase of macrosomia and umbilical artery acidosis compared with the well-treated GDM group. The study reported herein demonstrates that excess mortality and morbidity typically observed in GDM can be prevented by early institution of tight metabolic control, which required insulin in 86% of our patients."
http://tinyurl.com/7pmnm :
"The classification, diagnosis, treatment and follow-up of patients with GDM were performed according to the specific recommendations proposed by American Diabetes Association (1) and the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology (2). During the study period 1980-1989, patients with fasting glucose levels of >5.8mmol/L or postprandial levels of >7.8 mmol/L were given insulin treatment. Between 1990 and 1992, patients were also instructed to aim maintain a plasma glucose level of 5.8 mmol/L. As of 1993 insulin was started at fasting levels of =5.3 mmol/L and/or 2-h postprandial levels of 6.6 mmol/l, and the glycemic goal was set at =5.3 mmol/L."
5.3=95 6.6=118
Note the change of bg goal changed between 1990 and 1992 and the change for insulin introduction in 1993. I became pregnant with my 4th GD in 1994 and the above guidelines were what my endo used. So you can see that guidelines changed as far back as 1993.
"We hypothesized that in the management of pregnancies with GDM combining early detection and strict metabolic control with early induction of labor near term- to avoid excessive fetal growth in utero, could lead to more favorable perinatal outcome. To test this assumption, we studied pregnancy outcome in GDM patients compared with the non-GDM normal pregnant population over a period of 18 years in which none, some, or all of these criteria were applied. The results indicate a gradual and constant decline in several important feto-maternal complications (for comprehensive data, see reference 3).During the last follow up period (1993-1998), the target normoglycemic level was lowered to =5.3 mmol/L, strict metabolic control was implemented, and labor was induced at a lower mean gestational age according to the EFW. It is only after applying all three aspects of the management policy together that we succeeded to decrease the complications occurring in GDM patients to rates that compared favorably with those observed in the general non-GDM population."
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 05:14 GMT Ozgirl, thanks for this. The first link you gave me seems to have the latest data as it references a study conducted in 2005:
(http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS00316/DSECTION=8
)
It says the goal of aggressive treatment was to maintain tight control of blood glucose. "The blood glucose goals for this group were 63 to 99 milligrams of glucose per deciliter (mg/dL) for fasting blood sugar and 126 mg/dL or lower two hours after meals." The cutoffs I was given (fasting no higher than 90, and two hours after a meal no higher than 120) are more agressive still, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
Your second link references a study from 1988 so I'll ignore that, although again the numbers I'm given are more agressive. Your third link also references an older study, from 1999, but even so my numbers are more agressive for the fasting level and only two points higher for two hours post-prandial.
My link, on the other hand, is of a review dated 2002, so the reviewers have had at their disposal all of the papers you quote and still wasn't able to conclude that insulin therapy made a difference in the outcomes of women diagnosed with gestational diabetes.
Again, please remember that GD is NOT the same as Type I or II diabetes, as it develops in the sixth and seventh month of pregnancy, when birth defects can no longer be formed. The risks of GD are more to do with labour complications. This is by no means the same thing.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I have looked at all your links carefully, and if you hadn't told me of the fact that blood glucose could spike after the first hour I would never have thought to do my experiment and test on the second hour as well. So I am glad that you wrote and I am glad that I was able to learn that I am still in control of my blood glucose despite my occasional bad carb snack. What I may have failed to make clear was that the bad carbs I do consume I only have in the carb quantities recommended for snacks, so I am not being as reckless as you seem to fear.
If it's a consolation, I'm seeing my OB/GYN on Friday and will again mention that the numbers I was given are contested by my new friends on alt.support.diabetes, to see whether she can show me some studies that support the hospital's guidelines. If I do get further info, I'll be sure to post it here.
And yes, if I have a future pregnancy, I will be tested early for GD having had a history of it in the current pregnancy. That is standard practice at the hospital where I go, so I am not concerned about that.
Ozgirl - 04 Jan 2006 08:40 GMT > Ozgirl, thanks for this. The first link you gave me seems to have the > latest data as it references a study conducted in 2005: (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/gestational-diabetes/DS003 16/DSECTION=8
> ) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 120) are more agressive still, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing > with. The 140 you have mentioned a few times. Your bg should not be allowed to go to 140 at any point without insulin intervention. I haven't seen you mention 120 at all - one example "If my number is less than 140 then that snack is acceptable". What if it is 139? Your nurse said that if bg had to be over 140 then insulin is indicated. Given meter error, that 139 could be 145 or more. That is contradictory to all the studies which say insulin should be started if numbers reach 118.
> Your second link references a study from 1988 so I'll ignore that, > although again the numbers I'm given are more agressive. Your third > link also references an older study, from 1999, but even so my numbers > are more agressive for the fasting level and only two points higher for > two hours post-prandial. The studies started in something like 1980 and goals were downwardly revised as time went by and effects of tighter control became obvious. By 1993 "As of 1993 insulin was started at fasting levels of =5.3 mmol/L and/or 2-h postprandial levels of 6.6 mmol/l, and the glycemic goal was set at =5.3 mmol/L." 6.6=118 not 140.
> My link, on the other hand, is of a review dated 2002, so the reviewers > have had at their disposal all of the papers you quote and still wasn't > able to conclude that insulin therapy made a difference in the outcomes > of women diagnosed with gestational diabetes. Your link talked about IGT even though it seemed to be GD at first glance.
> I don't mean to sound ungrateful, I have looked at all your links
> carefully, and if you hadn't told me of the fact that blood glucose > could spike after the first hour I would never have thought to do my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have in the carb quantities recommended for snacks, so I am not being > as reckless as you seem to fear. I am not saying you are reckless. It's just that I have read about GD intensively and I had a huge amount of information before my computer crash. Numbers like you are quoting were few and far between when goal recommendations were stated. Nearly all the studies I researched had the much lower goals. "During the last follow up period (1993-1998), the target normoglycemic level was lowered to =5.3 mmol/L, strict metabolic control was implemented, and labor was induced at a lower mean gestational age according to the EFW. It is only after applying all three aspects of the management policy together that *we succeeded to decrease the complications occurring in GDM patients to rates that compared favorably with those observed in the general non-GDM population*."
If decrease in complications was only successful when the new guidelines were followed doesn't it make sense that that previous upper limits set were not as successful as they needed to be?
>Again, please remember that GD is NOT the same as Type I or II >diabetes, as it develops in the sixth and seventh month of pregnancy, >when birth defects can no longer be formed. Penelope, I am not sure who told you that but it is isn't an absolute (there is a huge amount of information going around the internet that tell that almost the only problem of GD is a large baby!). It has been found in me well within the1st trimester - I felt symptomatic and requested an early test. The first time it was found at the routine glucose test at 18 weeks (that's a lot earlier than what appears to be the norm for your hospital). Confirmed by GTT. Each successive pregnancy I got it earlier - the last two being very early. The effects of GD developed later in pregnancy isn't just about labour (and you don't know when you actually developed it). There is the life threatening pre eclampsia - life threatening for you and the baby - in most cases the baby has to be born NOW, regardless of its gestational age), preterm labour, an underdeveloped but large baby, baby being born with extremely low bg, developing jaundice, can have breathing problems, hypocalcemia, neural tube defects (once again, no one knows how long they have had GD with tests only being given later in pregnancy as seems to be the case in some places).
I think you have been given all the information you need from a few sources to make the decision about how tight your control needs to be. In my opinion (which may vary to anyone's else's opinion) is that it is a very short time to sacrifice to give a baby its absolute best chances. No different in my opinion to skipping the alcohol, cigarettes or over the counter headache pill. I do wish you good luck Penelope, I just felt I should give you a broader outlook than the one you have been given. Being educated allows the decision making to be easier I feel.
David - 04 Jan 2006 16:01 GMT > The 140 you have mentioned a few times. Your bg should not > be allowed to go to 140 at any point without insulin [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to all the studies which say insulin should be started if > numbers reach 118. That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd never know it...
dave
Lady Penelope Creighton-Ward - 04 Jan 2006 17:25 GMT > That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd never know it...
Dave and Ozgirl, your concern truly is very kind, even if you have been missing some of my posts in the avalanche... I did say that the number I was to stick to at the 2-hour mark was 120 or less.
I will stop reading this newsgroup now, as I think I've received all the information I needed. I do appreciate everyone's help, believe me, but the atmosphere is a little bit panicky. I have made it quite clear (unless people have missed my posts) that my blood was tested on numerous occasions throughout my pregnancy for a different reason, and GTT was not indicated until the sixth month when it's routinely administered at the hospital where I'm being seen.
I have also made it clear that my providers are happy with the way I'm controlling my bgs with diet alone and that the endocrinologist would have been involved had my numbers been outside of the current guidelines. I have also indicated that this hospital has a superb reputation for treating GD so I have no reason to believe I am being misled. Additionally, I have at the suggestion received here also tested my levels throughout the day to see if there were spikes I was missing, and again my numbers were fine.
So I thank you all and I bid you goodbye.
David - 04 Jan 2006 17:34 GMT >>That's what I've been telling her too, but if she's listening, you'd > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > So I thank you all and I bid you goodbye. yup, guess I missed something along the way. Take care!
dave
Julie Bove - 04 Jan 2006 01:29 GMT > Penelope, I am very sorry to hear that you only got advice > from RN's. My endo was treating numbers much lower than 140 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > definitely need to have numbers lower than a normal type 1 > or 2 outside of pregnancy. I agree with you there! Unfortunately in this country, this isn't always the case. My Ob/Gyn did send me to an Endo. for my thryoid problem, but the Endo. refused to address the GD because the Ob/Gyn was. I really wish the Endo. had been treating it and then perhaps I would not have the complications I do today! As for the lower numbers during pregnancy, this is very much true. I have seen no evidence of it being otherwise. I bought that huge, expensive book on diabetes that is intended for Drs. and it doesn't not lower the numbers for GD.
I also would not take advice during pregnancy from an RN. I can't tell you how much bad advice I was given by them.
>People will make up their own > minds according to the medical information they receive. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pregnancies may result in your having GD within that crucial > first trimester and the outcome may not be as good. And that's one problem with pregnancy. Especially if it's your first. I was given so much conflicting advice and I was so stressed out with my husband being overseas, my family in another state, and me just not feeling well to begin with.
> The following distresses me: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > glucose we want the numbers to be between 80 (fasting) and > 140 (one hour after a meal)." This simply is not true! My Ob/Gyn said it is possible to have sugar in the urine and for it to be normal, especially when lactation is beginning. But if it is found, it needs a followup. And any elevated BG needs a followup. Elevated BG during pregnancy is certainly NOT normal!
> The body sees no difference to a GD, type 1 or type 2 > mother. The bg's all have the same result on the growing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > medical field. I would never trust an RN for my pregnancy > diabetic care, ever. I wasn't put on insulin, but did use the birthing room. I wasn't allowed to carry beyond term though. I had already warned that I would be induced on my due date if I hadn't already had the baby. But I was induced one day before since I had developed protein in my urine and they suspected the start of pre-eclampsia.
 Signature See my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm
Loretta Eisenberg - 03 Jan 2006 23:52 GMT I am so happy you got the right answers to your questions. Please let us know when the baby is born,. Good luck
Loretta
-- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.
David - 04 Jan 2006 00:44 GMT > Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > I appreciate everyone's kind concern and good advice and wish you all > the best! 140, huh? sounds a bit lax from what I've heard others (not here--I'm talking friends in RL) comment on during pregnancies. oh well, I guess you'll follow the guidelines given? I looked at the link. under diet: avoid foods high in sugar and fat.
Dave
W.M.McKee - 04 Jan 2006 14:08 GMT >Hello everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >University) took my questions to the gestational diabetes specialist RN >and called me back with the answers. Good luck, and I am sure I speak for us all, when I wish you all the best. It sounds like you have a good plan and like you are in good hands. Just stay on top of it, and you'll be fine!
Will, T2
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