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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / January 2006Nothing worked until
I always made excuses for myself. My mother did too when I was growing up. She was indulgent. Anyway, I became obese and developed diabetes. I never could lose weight. I gained year after year. I blamed my slow metabolism or my bad genes. It wasn't until I got so mad at myself that I finally changed. I lost weight by riding a wave of anger at myself that became a motivation to exercise every day and eat properly. I got so mad when I realized I'd disfigured myself with food. When I didn't feel like exercising, I would say to myself "Get your big a.s off the couch and go for a walk you lazy slob! " I realize this won't work for everyone because many of us are so sensitive, we might hurt our own feelings. :) Everyone knows what works for themselves. How many people can blame it on genes, It is probably more environmental. We all chose what we put in our mouths. I am overweight because I like to eat, I maintain my weight so it doesnt fluctuate. I watch all my bloodwork/ I realized that I was getting racked with pain so I forced myself to exercise. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. This post not CC'd by email On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:24 GMT, "Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> wrote: >I always made excuses for myself. My mother did too when I was growing up. >She was indulgent. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I realize this won't work for everyone because many of us are so sensitive, >we might hurt our own feelings. :) G'day G'day Rudy, I read your description with interest. You have outlined how anger, even anger with one's own behaviour can play an essential role in activating a strong sense of being motivated. As an initial step it can be essential. Until one has a sense of being upset what usually happens is one continues along the same path even if objectively the probable outcome looks steadily worse and worse. People are like that, they drift unless something happens that brings about a sudden awakening. It is like a driver on a long journey who drifts off to sleep unaware that they were drifting off to sleep ... than awakening with a jolt. What I am saying here is, "Be thankful that you can be angry with yourself" or better still, "Be thankful that you can be angry with self destructive behaviour". It might not seem like much of a change but IMHO it is important, My sense is that you are to be congratulated for having "snapped awake". It has most likely saved your life. Let's assume for a moment that your "tough love" approach to your past behaviour works. There will arise a time when you will need to love yourself ... OK, there will be a time when you will wake up one morning and think "Hey, I'm pretty OK," even "Hey I'm pretty". Now' that will be a crucial time. You'll need to like yourself to think, "Hey, this person looking back at me from the mirror is well worth protecting ... how am I going to do that?" Worth working towards don't you think? Best wishes,  SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Thoughtful response Quentin. I have loads of self love. It's not the kind of self-love that focuses on appearance. If it were, I would have controlled my eating long ago. My form of self-love concerns that small area of my palate that adores sweets and fat. My focus was pleasing that part of me. Complacency was my worst enemy. To counter complacency and inertia, I had to become angry as if I were my own parent reacting to the spoiled child within me whose goal was doing what I wanted to do regardless of consequences. I had to be my own drill sergeant. Now I love both parts of me...parent and child. I am the obedient child of the parent within me. There is harmony. I see many obese people who want to lose weight, but the child within them disobeys the parent within them and chaos reigns. I have a female friend who bemoans the fact that she is obese, single at 45 and with no boyfriend or marriage prospects, yet she is firm in her commitment never to give up french fries. That's the kind of non-rational bargain a child will make. BTW these mental gymnastics merely involve speaking out loud to oneself. "Get your big a.s off the couch and go for a walk, you lazy slob!" Again, this will not work for the proud, or people who could easily hurt their own feelings. :) > This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Best wishes, Hopefully she loses the weight, and stays single. Who the Hell needs marriage prospects at 45 in this day and age? :-) -- Cheri Rudy Toot wrote in message ... >I have a female friend who bemoans the fact that she is obese, single at 45 >and with no boyfriend or marriage prospects, yet she is firm in her >commitment never to give up french fries. That's the kind of non-rational >bargain a child will make. Cheri, she should lose weight for herself. But it is so much easier to say stay single when the plate is full. Go to a restaurant, People sitting at the table are wondering why people waiting on line are carrying on. The people at the table have full stomachs so it is easy for them to judge the others. But, if the shoe were on the other foot. they would be complaining about the wait. What we choose is one thing, What we have no choice about is another. jmo Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. I agree, she should lose weight for herself, but who says she wants to be married, especially if she's stayed single for 45 years. The thing is, there are a lot of heavy people out there who are married, in happy relationships etc., so I'm just saying that the weight is probably not why she's single, and the prospect of marriage probably isn't a huge incentive for her. :-) -- Cheri Loretta Eisenberg wrote in message <7673-43B5CA1F-42@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net>... Cheri, she should lose weight for herself. But it is so much easier to say stay single when the plate is full. Go to a restaurant, People sitting at the table are wondering why people waiting on line are carrying on. The people at the table have full stomachs so it is easy for them to judge the others. But, if the shoe were on the other foot. they would be complaining about the wait. What we choose is one thing, What we have no choice about is another. jmo Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. You're right, Cheri. Being overweight is only a problem for spouses who are shallow...My ex's mother has been overweight for years, and her wonderful husband loved her nonetheless (he died 1.5 yrs. ago) Mary > I agree, she should lose weight for herself, but who says she wants to > be married, especially if she's stayed single for 45 years. The thing [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and > terrorism. This post not CC'd by email On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:22:09 GMT, "Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> wrote: >Thoughtful response Quentin. > >I have loads of self love. It's not the kind of self-love that focuses on >appearance. If it were, I would have controlled my eating long ago. My form >of self-love concerns that small area of my palate that adores sweets and >fat. My focus was pleasing that part of me. G'day G'day Rudy, Let me say first up it is pleasure talking to someone who has so much sorted in an intelligent way. >Complacency was my worst enemy. Yep. You are not alone in that respect. >To counter complacency and inertia, I had >to become angry as if I were my own parent reacting to the spoiled child >within me whose goal was doing what I wanted to do regardless of >consequences. One thing I have particularly enjoyed is the clarity with which you express yourself. Being a bit of a self editor, I'd have preferred to have said, "... the spoiled child within me whose goal was doing what IT wanted to do regardless of consequences." Not sure that I'm right about this but sometimes it helps to dissociate oneself a bit from the behaviours one wishes to leave behind. Using "I" makes it part of your identity and turns your internal dialogue into a battle field. Mind you I'm a bit of softy. I'd thank the sweet tooth part for having done its best to take care of me in the past. IMHO bits hang around past their leave by date if you don't thank them. >I had to be my own drill sergeant. Now I love both parts of me...parent and >child. I am the obedient child of the parent within me. There is harmony. Cool. I was wondering if you were getting along without adult to adult conversations. They too have a place. >I see many obese people who want to lose weight, but the child within them >disobeys the parent within them and chaos reigns. As I see it their identity is attached with super glue to their indulgent child parts. >I have a female friend who bemoans the fact that she is obese, single at 45 >and with no boyfriend or marriage prospects, yet she is firm in her >commitment never to give up french fries. That's the kind of non-rational >bargain a child will make. Interestingly she "bemoans." I take this an indication that she is not happy. Perhaps the only internal dialogue she knows is parent child. Maybe when she was a child that was how life was. Now she has some feeling that at last she (the child) has won. Maybe what she needs is to begin an adult adult conversation with herself and take a long holiday from wanting anything in particular. Then one day, on a day she couldn't predict she will realise life has other options, than get fat or get married. >BTW these mental gymnastics merely involve speaking out loud to oneself. > >"Get your big a.s off the couch and go for a walk, you lazy slob!" Hey, I'm impressed. Too many people stupidly involve other people. I believe it is called cathartics. The idea is that venting will help one get over stuff. Frankly having spent a "holiday" listening to old friends getting together and venting the baggage they should have recycled into something useful years ago I'm very unimpressed with the whole idea. Better to yell at yourself loudly. At least you might be listening. Having overheard some of these womanly gatherings (while watching the cricket) I'm convinced they only listen in order to pick when the other is going to draw breath and its their turn to dump. >Again, this will not work for the proud, or people who could easily hurt >their own feelings. :) Absolutely. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > This post not CC'd by email > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:22:09 GMT, "Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> > Hey, I'm impressed. Too many people stupidly involve other people. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > whole idea. Better to yell at yourself loudly. At least you might be > listening. I agree. If you look at those folks who are caught up in harmful behaviors, they typically blame others, engage in fruitless conversation, or adopt the view that they cannot control themselves. In contrast, those folks who achieve self control use the classic behaviors--goal setting, self-monitoring, info gathering, public confession, self-criticism and relentless advancement on their goal without excuses. Interestingly, the military can take gawky teenage boys and turn them into disciplined soldiers through relentless toughness. Successful athletes, entrepreneurs, mountain climbers are single minded, make no excuses and take risks. The best coaches and teachers are the most demanding. In contrast, we have people promoting "fat acceptance," or suing food retailers. We have doctors being sued for being blunt with their patients about the dangers of obesity. Meanwhile, the majority of diabetics are "out of control" yet doctors soft pedal the dangers when they should be running a "Scared Straight" and telling the truth about uncontrolled blood sugar. I have a neighbor, a man in his 30's, a college graduate who is approximately 450 pounds, and about to lose his home because no one will hire him. Although he is intelligent and articulate, he refuses to give up pizzas and burgers. He objects to having to cook for himself. I 've offered him help, but we quickly reach the end of discussion when he tells me he would never be able to give up his two beloved foods or prepare his own food. He will not make any sacrifices, yet, he's about to make the biggest sacrifice of all. In contrast, the military drill sergeant takes such recalcitrance, breaks it down, dismantles it, and rebuilds it into something better. My neighbor needs to become his own drill sergeant as I doubt that he could accept or find the drill sergeant he needs. In my own case, I could never take verbal abuse from someone else, but I can easily put up with yelling at myself, especially since it works so well. When I hear myself yelling at me, it's nice to know that someone really cares enough to take the time to set me straight. :) Getting control of my Fat Man: Picture a fat man sitting in front of a mirror and wishing he were thin. It's as if there are two people--the fat man who is out of control and the thin man who wants to control the fat man but can't. This is a harmful form of schizophrenia though it's not recognized clinically. The problem for the thin man is that he doesn't dialog with the fat man--doesn't push the fat man into doing what is necessry to become one man--a thin man. I found that talking, cajoling, yelling at my fat man was a method to becoming one man--of healthy weight. "What the hell have you done to yourself?" was a common question for my fat man. I'd look at my gut hanging over my belt and think of words like "disfigurement" or even "maimed." I had to get angry. This post not CC'd by email On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 05:38:52 GMT, "Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> wrote: >Getting control of my Fat Man: > >Picture a fat man sitting in front of a mirror and wishing he were thin. > >It's as if there are two people--the fat man who is out of control and the >thin man who wants to control the fat man but can't. G'day G'day Rudy, One sometimes has the sense that certain conversations will turn out to be fascinating. This one is no exception. >This is a harmful form of schizophrenia though it's not recognized >clinically. Hey, I tend not to use labels like schizophrenia. Labels stick and people who use them get stuck. <grin> Whatever. I happen to share some of your concerns over dividing one's internal self. I spent some time in the company of some very interesting people who were highly successful in producing personal change ... and some who talked a lot about producing personal change and were monumental failures themselves. Naturally the ones who produced lasting personal change for themselves were more interesting. One Japanese woman held a certain fascination for me. She did for others too ... especially when she taught negotiation skills for consumers in the platinum card category. For me though, it was the way she controlled her weight. I met her husband. He was gross and seemingly ate nothing but salads and small portions. She tucked in vigorously ... so much so that people stared at her. As I got to know her she confided that when she was a teenager she "tubby bear" It may even have been her nick name. Her secret, as she revealed it to me, was "One image." He repeated it to me over and over as if I was hard of hearing, "One image. One image" Put simply what she said happened for most people was they had two images, one of them fat, as they were and the other thin as they wanted to be. Now, some parts of the human brain work on images. In order to think of "Not fat" it must think of fat. I suspect you are already aware of that. It was what else she said that has stayed with me and become part of my belief system. The subconscious processes whichever image is infused with the most emotional energy. For most people it is the fat image. The homeostasis triggers are set to the fat image because that has more emotional grunt. The thin image ... well that is something they would like but it isn't processed as being real. My strong sense from all that you have said is that for you, the kick a.s sergeant has more emotional energy. I think that is fantastic. I hope readers will be aware though that for people with different beliefs about shouting out loud at oneself it might not be OK in the long term. Then it become important to have one image. With one image there is only one winner. >The problem for the thin man is that he doesn't dialog with the fat >man--doesn't push the fat man into doing what is necessry to become one >man--a thin man. Yes. And at some time the images must integrate. >I found that talking, cajoling, yelling at my fat man was a method to >becoming one man--of healthy weight. I admire your success. >"What the hell have you done to yourself?" was a common question for my fat >man. I'd look at my gut hanging over my belt and think of words like >"disfigurement" or even "maimed." I had to get angry. Anger is powerful. That is why we have it hard wired into our emotional make up. Sometimes it comes with bad decision making skills, and leads us to reacting against something rather than choosing carefully what it is we really want in life and working towards it. Thankfully it seems you have included the essential step of choosing a worthy goal BEFORE becoming angry. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Hey, I tend not to use labels like schizophrenia. Labels stick and > people who use them get stuck. <grin> Whatever. That's a wise thing to do Quentin. I'm speaking metaphorically here so permit me to use a shorthand to quickly get an idea across. Given that obesity and diabetes are so horrendous, it 's helpful to use strong languge like "schizophrenia" when you are a fat man who cannot control his behavior though you know that you are damaging yourself in profound and permanent ways and yet want to change--but don't. Unfortunately, I spent years making excuses for myself when I should have been kicking my own butt (metaphorically speaking). I was using all the wrong strategies. It's helpful to use mental constructs such as the parent/child or fat man/thin man when you need to devise strategies that work. It's a little like using labels in algebra when you need to solve problems that otherwise seem insoluble. I know there is a contemporary resistance against labelling, but we all have to communicate and so we wind up inventing new labels that sound better. Eventually these labels get rejected after some years of use and then we move on to a new label--but feel a little silly in the process after moving through several re-labellings. I find it helpful to give fellow communicators the benefit of the doubt on labels. > Anger is powerful. That is why we have it hard wired into our > emotional make up. Sometimes it comes with bad decision making > skills, and leads us to reacting against something rather than > choosing carefully what it is we really want in life and working > towards it. Thankfully it seems you have included the essential step > of choosing a worthy goal BEFORE becoming angry. You're right about anger being both powerful and potentially harmful. The kind of anger that I'm talking about is a healthy, normal, rational response to looking in a mirror and seeing a dangerously fat body that is both life threatening, costly and unattractive. What is stunning to me is that I slowly grew into the obese condition, one fork full at a time, and never had the motivation to effectively change. Rather than anger, I developed a belief that I couldn't do anything about it. I had become a wimp. As people, we are capable of a multitude of roles to play. Why be "stuck on stupid" and play the wimp? I simply developed the effective parent to my disobedient child. It was what I said to myself that worked. It's very simple. We're spending too much time on this really. It was a mental stratagem non unlike the athlete swimmer who visualizes his tricky dive before doing it and then does it flawlessly. What we say to ourselves really does matter. Being too easy on oneself doesn't work when one is faced with life threatening behavior. This post not CC'd by email On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 19:41:14 GMT, " Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> wrote: >It's helpful to use mental constructs such as the parent/child or fat >man/thin man when you need to devise strategies that work. It's a little [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >moving through several re-labellings. I find it helpful to give fellow >communicators the benefit of the doubt on labels. G'day G'day Rudy, In the interests of keeping the discussion short I have cut much that I agree with. I'm not against labeling, however I set myself some rules. Where possible I reserves labels as descriptors of actions not people. This helps avoid the situation where people identify with the labels and regard behavioral change as a risk to their assumed identity. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin I have not participated in this discussion until now, not from lack of interest, but simple from the lack of the time and energy - a developing health problem that now imposes it's own limitations. So if this point has already been disussed to death, please excuse me. What drew my attention was the header "Nothing worked until....." It seems to me that discovering just what motivates each of us can be very personal. The thing is to find that emotional trigger that gets us moving, that creates the energy and incentive, in order to make the personal effort needed to effectively find the answers and methods that works for us, personally. If what you are currently doing is not working, and has never worked, it's time to look for something new. Some like the lash, others the soft place to fall. For me, two things happened around the same time. 1. I got mad at the doctors and other "experts". I had followed all the advice given for years, without gaining any improvements in bg management or weight loss, and received nothing but disbelief and criticism for my efforts. I was regarded as a liar, a cheat, and a "bad patient". When it came to labels, that was just a few of them! I was copping a lot of bad ones, and I did *not* agree with them. I was more than ready to try something new. 2. I was kindly given a computer, and helped to get onto the internet. I looked around and I joined asd, and read and tried Jennifer's advice. It worked! I finally found something that really worked! It made a profound change in my life, and I'll always be grateful for that lady's simple and logical advice. It literally saved my life, and perhaps my mental health too. The anger I felt provided the energy to "show them all". I was very angry that no-one had ever mentioned such a thing to me before, and I had suffered for so many years without achieving any means of improving my situation. Anger was the emotional fuel that got me moving. The things I learned here in asd provided the means to do so at last. It also inspired me to seek more information about the general management of my health in other areas. The positive results from all that work provided the incentive to persist in this course, long after the initial anger had faded away. I'm not angry with the doctors anymore. They do the best they can, and I now respect the knowledge and skills that they *do* posess. But, they don't know everything. No one does, no one has all the answers. The one thing that anyone can do for themselves is to find the thing that will motivate us, each and every one, to look for answers, abandon denial, and tackle the changes that may be needed to make a difference. My personal bottom line is "Does it work"? Closely followed by "Is it possibly harmful?" I wish each and everyone seeking to better their situation, all the very best in their quest. Be brave, be honest, and never give up. Find and do what you need to do, without losing respect for others and their choices, and always maintaining a good sense of the risks and consequences of your actions. All the best in an imperfect world, Annette Annette, this was an excellent post. There are so many different to view so many different situations. We all have to grab onto what works for ourselves. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. I felt strange when I read Rudy Toots post. On the one hand, I said to myself, good for him, He knows who he is and what works for him, On the other hand, I thought it was sad that he combined his body image with his self image and that he would call himself those names. I know as a child, I was called fat a.s, fat slob and all the terrible names kids call other kids who are different. Even those that loved me thought calling me names would work It never did, I only ate more. As I grew up, I felt that if I was overweight then I wasnt pretty, I wasnt smart, That to be worth something I had to lose weight. I went on every diet imagineable from the water diet, atkins, to taking amphetamines and I must have lost fifty pounds at least twenty times. What a strain this was taking on my health. I think it was more unhealthy gaining back the weight and even some, than staying the same weight. It took many many years and being diagnosed with diabetes to realize that my body image and self image are not interdependent of each other. When I was diagnosed, I lost 43 pounds. My health is good, My numbers are great, My diabetes is in control. I could lose forty pounds, but I am now happy with who I am, If that is not good enough for anyone, that has to be their problem. I think I look better being stable than I look with fluctuating weight In five years, I have stayed in the same three pound range. I feel good about myself and know who I am is not about what I look like. Coming to terms with our inner being is very important. Of course, in life, moderation is the key to happiness in almost all things. I dont want to beat myself up anymore. I dont think anyone should do that. I believe in a little tough love but not to the point of calling ourselves such hideous names like fat pig. jmo. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. G'day G'day Loretta, You reconfirm my belief that you are one smart cookie ... in the areas that matter most. I like your summation of the situation. I'd be proud to have made such a clear, logical explanation of what it is like to recognise what is most important in life ... learning to live at peace with oneself. Congratulations and thank you, Best wishes, Quentin. This post not CC'd by email On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:46:19 -0500, Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta Eisenberg) wrote: >I felt strange when I read Rudy Toots post. On the one hand, I said to >myself, good for him, He knows who he is and what works for him, On the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Loretta SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Quentin, if you are calling me a smart cookie, it must be true since I think you are brilliant. lol Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. Well said, and IMO too. I always hate the way people seem to add "slob" or "pig" or "lazy" when describing overweight people. -- Cheri Loretta Eisenberg wrote in message <29603-43B84DAB-259@storefull- I dont want to beat myself up anymore. I dont think anyone should do that. I believe in a little tough love but not to the point of calling ourselves such hideous names like fat pig. jmo. Loretta -- In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. > This post not CC'd by email > On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 05:38:52 GMT, "Rudy Toot" <rudytoot@nospam.com> > wrote: >>Getting control of my Fat Man: >> >>Picture a fat man sitting in front of a mirror and wishing he were thin. >> >>It's as if there are two people--the fat man who is out of control and the >>thin man who wants to control the fat man but can't. > G'day G'day Rudy, > One sometimes has the sense that certain conversations will turn out > to be fascinating. This one is no exception. > I spent some time in the company of some very interesting people who > were highly successful in producing personal change ... and some who > talked a lot about producing personal change and were monumental > failures themselves. Naturally the ones who produced lasting personal > change for themselves were more interesting. > One Japanese woman held a certain fascination for me. She did for > others too ... especially when she taught negotiation skills for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > fat. I suspect you are already aware of that. It was what else she > said that has stayed with me and become part of my belief system. > The subconscious processes whichever image is infused with the most > emotional energy. > For most people it is the fat image. The homeostasis triggers are set > to the fat image because that has more emotional grunt. The thin > image ... well that is something they would like but it isn't > processed as being real. > My strong sense from all that you have said is that for you, the kick > a.s sergeant has more emotional energy. I think that is fantastic. I > hope readers will be aware though that for people with different > beliefs about shouting out loud at oneself it might not be OK in the > long term. Then it become important to have one image. With one > image there is only one winner. Fascinating. We're all trying to learn how to manage a very complicated device without benefit of a user manual: our bodies. Evolution has set up all sorts of useful handles which make the right thing happen enough of the time to be useful to animals who don't do a lot of thinking. Thinking a lot is a recent evolutionary discovery which has some extraordinary advantages, so many that in promoting it some other other more ancient features of our design have been pushed aside by the progress of this extremely successful juggernaut. There still seems to be plenty of room for individuals of intelligence, imagination, and curiosity, to discover "forgotten" but useful features of the human design. I say "forgotten", but we haven't really forgotten them, because we never knew them in the consciously aware sense. It's just that a million or few years ago our ancestors happened to be in the kind of environments where they naturally reacted in ways which exploited these features. If human beings happened to have been genetically endowed with the ability to sleep safely in trees, how would we ever know this if we lived in houses? SignatureChris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] This post not CC'd by email On 4 Jan 2006 11:21:23 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote: >Fascinating. We're all trying to learn how to manage a very >complicated device without benefit of a user manual: our [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >been pushed aside by the progress of this extremely successful >juggernaut. G'day G'day Chris, The thinking a lot seems to be a product of language. For chimps, as I understand it, if you weren't there, you don't know and will never no. The same is not true for humans. We can listen when spoken to and we can listen even when not spoken to. We can overhear conversations. To our surprise research based on overhearing conversations seems to suggest that two thirds of what is talked about is RELATIONSHIPS. One of the more relevant ones for us here and now is the relationship with food. How do we relate to food? >There still seems to be plenty of room for individuals of >intelligence, imagination, and curiosity, to discover "forgotten" but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >happened to be in the kind of environments where they naturally >reacted in ways which exploited these features. Yeap. One of the great ways to discover what we "forgot" is to listen to people, preferably successful people, going about their business largely ignoring our presence. IMHO to tap into what is really happening we have to be as the fly on the wall. Cafes make a great place for such human watching. We could of course listen to fat people and see how they relate to food. What we hear is "I'd like ... ", "I am dying for a ... " "I really shouldn't eat these lovely ... they'll make me fat." Hey, you have heard such conversations so many times you could fill out a few. Listening to slim people is IMHO more useful. They are what we would like to be. (I'm talking about the bulk of T2s here.) Slim people say strange things, "They say, nah, if I eat that I'll feel ... (bloated, sleepy, dopey)... in half an hour." Now, what the heck is going on there? It seems like they are experiencing the liking, wanting stuff like the rest of us BUT something happens. Now as trained observers so often observe ... everything before the "but" is BS. The bit embed with the emotional energy that determines action is what comes after the "but". Equally strangely they are NOT so likely to be carrying around an image of getting fat if they over eat. What determines their actions isn't the IMMEDIATE, "I'd like..." or "I'm dying for a ..." or the LONG TERM, too far away adverse aspect, " ... get fat" What determines their behaviour is what will happen in the INTERMEDIATE time range, in half an hour to an hour. >If human beings happened to have been genetically endowed with the >ability to sleep safely in trees, how would we ever know this if we >lived in houses? Exactly. Many of us don't know how effective it would be base our decisions on predicted responses in an intermediate time scale because we are habitually driven by predictions of immediate gratification and think long term goals will allude us or are out of our control. To put it another way, it is easy to fall into the trap of denying ourselves the benefits of a healthy life style because our past experiences and role models have been ones ill adapted to a world with a super abundance of food. We could of course try the successful strategy for a day, a week etc and see how it works for us. Simply behave _as if_ we had been given the slim way of thinking by some loving parent. If we don't like it and/or the results it produces, no harm done. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > Her secret, as she revealed it to me, > was "One image." He repeated it to me over and over as if I was hard [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > image ... well that is something they would like but it isn't > processed as being real. This is fascinating - but I'm somewhat suspicious. How come for years I expected to see a slim 18yo in the mirror, and it was surprising when someone else looked back? I must admit it's still surprising now I see someone slim (or at least slim-ish) there. I think I got used to looking at bits of me in the mirror, rather than the whole person... the 18yo's disappeared somewhere, though, my current internal person feels around my chronological age. Occasionally she wears a tweed skirt, which is seriously worrying : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg This post not CC'd by email On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:46:53 -0000, "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote: >> Her secret, as she revealed it to me, >> was "One image." He repeated it to me over and over as if I was hard [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >expected to see a slim 18yo in the mirror, and it was surprising when >someone else looked back? G'day G'day Nicky, OK, so that eliminates one possibility concerning with whom you share the shower? >I must admit it's still surprising now I see someone slim (or at least > slim-ish) there. Surprise is only a few submodalities away from delight. The former can rapidly transform into the latter. >I think I got used to looking at bits of me in the mirror, rather than > the whole person... Fantastic. It's a gift. What if you stand there and go "hmmm, my cheek bones are pretty elegant." "My ears are positively nibble worthy" ... the rest is probably better to confined to further out in cyber space before the screen fogs up like a bathroom mirror. >the 18yo's disappeared somewhere, They come when called. Blow gently in the their ear. >though, my current internal person feels around my chronological age. So you ARE young at heart. >Occasionally she wears a tweed skirt, which is seriously >worrying : ) Now you are worrying even me. >Nicky. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > Now you are worrying even me. Indeed : ) Thanks for the belly-laugh! Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg |
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