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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2005

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A Critical Question

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tightwad - 14 Dec 2005 02:17 GMT
I'm Agent Orange linked Diabetic and have Diabetic Neuropathy and
associated other problems.
I'm being treated by the VA.I only get to see my Physician every six
months unless?
The Neuropathy was  in my feet and lower legs. Then it appeared in my
upper lip and face. Together with the ringing in my ears, and the
burning, stinging and pain and other things it is a living hell.
I feel I will go mad some times. I feel like just running and running
and maybe escaping the pain.
I had a problem with low grade fever and nausea.
Soemone, no one knows who, ordered a Gall Bladder test for me.
The results were not good.  My flow rate of bile is 35% of normal, if I
understood correctly.
My Primary Care Doctor says it is caused by Neuropathy.
I am not getting much information from him, the Surgeon, who said it was
not bad enough, yet, to remove, or anyone.
I stumbled over some information, somewhere that if the Neuropathy
affects the Heart Muscle it is all over.
I could not elicit any information from any of these people what the
chances are of it occuring.
I feel I have a death sentence hanging over me. It seems the Neuropathy
may be progressing.
I keep my sugar down in the 100 or lower range. It is an ordeal to do it.
I hoped that by keeping it low and losing weight I could lick it.
Anyone know where there is any good information on this aspect of
Diabetes and Diabetic Neuropathy?
Do you know anything yourself.

Merry Christmas
Uncle Enrico - 14 Dec 2005 03:52 GMT
> I'm Agent Orange linked Diabetic and have Diabetic Neuropathy and
> associated other problems.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Merry Christmas

My sincere sympathies on your many health problems my friend. All I know
about diabetes and neuropathy I've learned here, on the web and from books.

Your blood sugar readings of 100 and lower are excellent. I have read
that tight control of blood glucose can improve neuropathies. There are
many folks here who can advise you better than I can.

Have you tried doing a Google search using several terms at once such
as: Agent Orange diabetic neuropathy.

I'm sure you'll get some  more replies with better info than I can give.

BTW...is it possible to get looked at by a doctor outside  the VA system?

God bless you my friend. Merry Christmas.
bantista - 14 Dec 2005 05:35 GMT
> I'm Agent Orange linked Diabetic and have Diabetic Neuropathy and
> associated other problems.

Sorry to hear it. This is accepted by the VA as a well known problem. How
Much they know about it, I don't know.

> I'm being treated by the VA.I only get to see my Physician every six
> months unless?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Merry Christmas

I certainly hope you can find some help for this situation. These do not
sound like trivial complications of diabetes, as if there could be such a
thing which as far as I can tell there are Not.

There is no cure for bad government.

And there is no cure for diabetes.

Someone may have some suggesions for your neuropothies, there are certainly
persons here who have experience with problems of this kind.

I hear from your post that your bg is under control. I think that is
helpful. I wish you well. This could certainly have happened to me, and I am
glad that it didn't. I also have T2 diabetes, but I have diabetes on both
sides of my family and am in native american and mexican american risk
groups, so when I got this disease it was not much of a surprise. Except
that it was. And so far, I have no neuropothies of any kind. I'm very glad
of that.

Any of us might have gone to the war and had these kind of issues.Thank you
for your service.

Please seek better council from your doctors and diabetes educators and from
specialists in your disease. You need better information about your
condition than you are getting. This, asd, is a good place to ask questions
and find support for diabetes problems, but your primary support is your
health team, which much be made to understand that your needs are not
trivial and must be met. You have to be the leader in treating your disease.
That means that you must assume responscibility for all aspects of your
situation and not flinch from troubling the medical professionals who should
help you in every way. They must give you the answers to your concerns.

Keep up communication with the group, asd, and tell the technical details of
your medical reports whenever you feel comfortable doing so with the rest of
the world.  Some of the people here are very informed about the backwaters
and byways of this disease. Not me. But I have learned a few things I
didn't know by reading this group and am better off for it.

regards,
rudy
bantista@thuntek.net
Chief - 14 Dec 2005 06:11 GMT
> I'm Agent Orange linked Diabetic and have Diabetic Neuropathy and
> associated other problems.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Merry Christmas

Hey,

 I have the usual laundry list for Vietnam/Desert Storm vets, Diabetes,
neuropathy, gout, tinitus, Upper and lower GI problems and a partridge in
a pear tree.  I don't have any pain so I count my blessings - such as
they are.

 Because I'm retired military I use tricare instead of VA. My doctor
says most of my problems could be helped or at least slowed by taking
care of the diabetes and changing my diet. So far he's been right. I
don't even know most of the time that I'm supposed to be sick.

Hang in there, hope all goes well and Merry Christmas.

Here's a link to some VA related links

http://www1.va.gov/health/diabetes/default.htm
Ma¢k - 14 Dec 2005 06:43 GMT
>> I'm Agent Orange linked Diabetic and have Diabetic Neuropathy and
>> associated other problems.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>> I stumbled over some information, somewhere that if the Neuropathy
>> affects the Heart Muscle it is all over.

Neuropathy is a very common for us and it does effect various systems
including the autonomic system..  However when it starts to affect the
heart all is NOT over.  The symptoms and severity will very from
person to person and will very from day to day in the same person.

The best way to reverse the problem or at the very least slow it or
halt it's progression is to lose excess weight, safely and slowly, and
to maintain good BG control, getting your A1c into the 5% range.

also there 2 known supplements that have varying degrees of success.
Alphalipoic acid and even primrose oil.  Both can be purchased at most
any local pharmacy.  No need to buy online or from any health food
supplement store, neither which can guarantee that what you are buying
is what you are getting.  Both can be used separately or together
safely.  The only known side effect I have read so far is a slight
itchy feeling from the EPO.  There might be others, easy enough to
find if you google for them.

There are some prescribed meds that work, in differing degrees for
different people.  I've tried elavil which gave limited relief and
after several months no longer worked.  I now use Topamax which I've
been taking for a few months along with EPO and it is working just
fine for me.

>> I could not elicit any information from any of these people what the
>> chances are of it occuring.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Hey,

it does take time.  and for many in the beginning at least, when you
get your BGs done, it will appear that the symptoms may be getting
worse.  But as your body acclimates to the normal BG range of a
non-diabetic the symptoms will ease off.

now you do not actually mention how frequently you actually test.
Some people have made the mistake that testing once or twice a day
gives them all the data they need.  What they do not always find out
until later is that they may be missing high BG readings between those
tests.  have you read Jennifer's advice to the newly diagnosed at
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org ?  It's not just for the newly
diagnosed as many old farts need the info as well.

Do not accept anything as a "definite" where diabetes is concerned.
If I did that I would be dead by over 10 years now.  The predictions
that doctors were making when I was younger have not come to pass in
the time frame they gave.

another vet says that he goes outside the VA for his medical care.  If
at all possible, you should look into this as well.  You will get
better medical care.  I do realize that you may not be in a situation
that would allow it.  But you really should look into it.  personally
I hate taking my other half to the VA.  I'd rather pay the extra
expense and go to my own doctors.

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Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

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President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
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Jenny - 14 Dec 2005 16:32 GMT
> The Neuropathy was  in my feet and lower legs. Then it appeared in my
> upper lip and face. Together with the ringing in my ears, and the
> burning, stinging and pain and other things it is a living hell.
> I feel I will go mad some times. I feel like just running and running
> and maybe escaping the pain.

You've gotten excellent advice about the neuropathy, ALA, etc and about
 testing to make sure you are keeping your post-meal spikes as low sa
possible. I want to reiterate that as you improve your blood sugars and
the nerves heal they can tingle and hurt. This can be a sign they are
getting better, so hang in there and keep those blood sugars down, as
tough as it is.

My own experience has been that tinnitus is far worse, in terms of
crazy-making, than any nerve pain (of which I have had far too much from
other reasons.) I don't know the exact mechanism by which Agent Orange
tinnitus works, but I have spent many years with tinnitus and have found
the following helpful.

1. No aspirin or any NSAID for pain, ever. Tylenol does not make
tinnitus worse.

2. Eliminate foods, sunscreens,and deodorants containing
salicylates--this includes anything with "cylate" in the name and Aloe.
Salicylates make my tinnitus much, much worse. There is one brand of
deodorant that has none, Almay, available in many drug stores. It took a
while after switching to it, but I noticed a definite improvement.

There are lists of foods containing salicylates on the web and you'll
find they include peppers and a many other vegetables. Note your own
response to these foods and eliminate those that seem to make things worse.

3. Read the prescribing information (available online) for any drug you
are taking and if it says "Tinnitus" anywhere in the list of side
effects, demand your doctor give you an alternative. A shocking number o
common drugs make existing tinnitus much worse, including a lot of
common antibiotics. Often if you ask a doctor, "Will this make my
tinnitus worse" they'll assure you it won't and THEY'LL BE WRONG.

4. White noise is your friend. Loud fans save your sanity. I use a
little "white noise" generator by my computer, and a big air-purifier
with a very noisy fan in the bedroom. They help most of the time except
when things really ramp up.

Re the cardiac neuropathy, I can't get a lot of information from doctors
on this, but lowering blood sugar as far as possible seems to be the
best approach.  Dr. Richard Bernstein in his book "Dr. Bernstein's
Diabetes Solution" says that his patients are able to improve  autonomic
neuropathy (which is what cardiac neuropathy is) with extremely tight
blood sugar control. He's been proven right on so many other things that
were written off as cranky ten years ago, that I'll give him credit on
this one, too.
Susan - 14 Dec 2005 16:45 GMT
> My own experience has been that tinnitus is far worse, in terms of
> crazy-making, than any nerve pain (of which I have had far too much from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 1. No aspirin or any NSAID for pain, ever. Tylenol does not make
> tinnitus worse.

This is excellent advice for those who are salicylate sensitive, but
aspirin and high salicylate foods don't worsen tinnitus in everyone.
IME, my own T (before it went mostly silent thanks to antibiotics and
low carb) was only temporarily elevated by a very high salicylate meal
or drug, and I can now take NSAIDS if I need them, with no worsening of
my T.

In my case, tinnitus was caused by brain infection.

Sometimes tinnitus is caused by or associated with thyroid
dysregulation, too.

I have at least one abstract finding that a low calorie, very low carb
diet improved T a great deal.

> 2. Eliminate foods, sunscreens,and deodorants containing
> salicylates--this includes anything with "cylate" in the name and Aloe.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> find they include peppers and a many other vegetables. Note your own
> response to these foods and eliminate those that seem to make things worse.

This last is a critical step, since not everyone will react badly to
salicylates.

> 3. Read the prescribing information (available online) for any drug you
> are taking and if it says "Tinnitus" anywhere in the list of side
> effects, demand your doctor give you an alternative. A shocking number o
> common drugs make existing tinnitus much worse, including a lot of
> common antibiotics. Often if you ask a doctor, "Will this make my
> tinnitus worse" they'll assure you it won't and THEY'LL BE WRONG.

Sometimes.  Not every effect noted in prescribing info is an effect of
the drug; sometimes it's just something reported during a trial.
Further, in my own case, it was important to find out that although
tinnitus initially worsened to an insanity inducing roar on doxycycline,
it was a temporary reaction to due bacterial dieoff (endotoxin release)
that got better, not worse, the longer I took the antibiotic.  Had to
research this at length before I had the confidence to continue with the
drug, since the jet engine in my head was the worst thing imaginable.

> 4. White noise is your friend. Loud fans save your sanity. I use a
> little "white noise" generator by my computer, and a big air-purifier
> with a very noisy fan in the bedroom. They help most of the time except
> when things really ramp up.

There are also downloadable programs or CDs to use to generate white
noise.  Some T folks use a radio station tuned to static to help them
get to sleep, or to mask T.

Susan
Jenny - 14 Dec 2005 17:30 GMT
>> 1. No aspirin or any NSAID for pain, ever. Tylenol does not make
>> tinnitus worse.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> or drug, and I can now take NSAIDS if I need them, with no worsening of
> my T.

For me "temporarily elevated" translates into terror, because you don't
don't if tinnitus worsening is temporary until it goes away. I was told
my permanent tinnitus (caused by a salicycilate) was "temporary", but it
never went away. So any further worsening caused by a drug or food is
very frightening.

> In my case, tinnitus was caused by brain infection.

> Sometimes tinnitus is caused by or associated with thyroid
> dysregulation, too.
>
> I have at least one abstract finding that a low calorie, very low carb
> diet improved T a great deal.

Alas, not for me. I had hoped this would be the case, but low carbing
did not make any difference in my tinnitus.

>> 3. Read the prescribing information (available online) for any drug
>> you are taking and if it says "Tinnitus" anywhere in the list of side
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Sometimes.  Not every effect noted in prescribing info is an effect of
> the drug; sometimes it's just something reported during a trial.

This line of reasoning is why I have permanent tinnitus. I got temporary
tinnitus from a drug and was stupid enough to believe my doctor when she
said it was only temporary and that after it went away (which it did) it
would be safe to take the drug at a lower dose. I took one more half
dose--ONE, and have had permanent tinnitus ever since. This was more
than seven years ago.

> Further, in my own case, it was important to find out that although
> tinnitus initially worsened to an insanity inducing roar on doxycycline,
> it was a temporary reaction to due bacterial dieoff (endotoxin release)
> that got better, not worse, the longer I took the antibiotic.  Had to
> research this at length before I had the confidence to continue with the
> drug, since the jet engine in my head was the worst thing imaginable.

Tinnitus is not a side effect of Doxycycline listed in the prescribing
information, and it is a very old drug so the side effects are well
known. This makes it believable that the tinnitus worsening was not
caused by the drug but by some characteristic of your disease. I've
taken it a couple times since developing tinnitus with no problem at
all. Can't say the same for Zithromax which caused serious worsening.

The frustrating part about tinnitus is that there doesn't seem to be any
 way of diagnosing what causes it and hence, what will make it worse.
Even worse, because it can't be measured by anything but the word of the
patient, a lot of doctors who haven't experienced it seem to treat it as
  unimportant, or even worse, a neurotic symptom.

Anyone who has experienced it, even temporarily, quickly learns this is
false, but lacking any way of verifying the symptom, there's little any
doctor will do, except possibly to prescribe a drug of the Valium family
which is seriously addictive.
 
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