Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Alpha Lipoic Acid

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Trinity - 30 Nov 2005 21:09 GMT
Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range. I told
her about the burning in my feet & asked her about alpha lipoic acid.
She did not know anything about it. So it looks like I'm on my own on
tht one. I did check the pharmacy in the bldg if they had any. The lady
did not know what that was & they didn't carry it.

I know some of you order on-line, but are there any stores that carry
it? I'm in Ontario, Canada. I would like to look at the bottle before I
buy & try & I'm not going to order on-line without really knowing more
about it.

I also told her that when I work out, that I drop to 4.2 to 4.8 after my
30 minute workout. She told me to eat more protein with the carbs. ??
Ok, I can try that. I'm still experimenting so we'll see.

on the metformin thread, I realize that since on metformin, I've had a
period every month. Pre dx, maybe because of stress, or diabetes, I
would tend to skip my period 3-4 times a year.
Also mentioned the heavy bleeding, so will have a pelvic ultrasound next
week.

As far as test strip renewal, I feel fortunate that there is no
hesitation prescribing 100 strips per months, and I'm sure if I use
more, no hesitation to prescribe more.

She did ask if I've lost more weight. I told her I'm working out. She
said before long, I'll "fade" away. Well I'm 5 1 1/2 feet tall, and
weigh 125 lbs.  When I started the gym, my body fat was 18%, in the
healthy range.  So, I must be at an ideal weight, lipid panel, A1c,
metformin meds, to have a great effect on my insulin resistance.

Trinity
Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

morrisolder@earthlink.net - 30 Nov 2005 21:48 GMT
In the US, I know that ALA is available at Long's Walgreeen's, Rexall,
Trader Joes's, Whole Foods, and Walmart among other pharmacies and
health food stores.  Any of those up there?
Trinity - 30 Nov 2005 21:57 GMT
> In the US, I know that ALA is available at Long's Walgreeen's, Rexall,
> Trader Joes's, Whole Foods, and Walmart among other pharmacies and
> health food stores.  Any of those up there?

We have Walmart.
Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

Ma¢k - 30 Nov 2005 22:48 GMT
>In the US, I know that ALA is available at Long's Walgreeen's, Rexall,
>Trader Joes's, Whole Foods, and Walmart among other pharmacies and
>health food stores.  Any of those up there?

try super-K as well. or any drug store with a supplement section.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

http://tinyurl.com/dgb3q
http://tinyurl.com/aw4mh

Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 22:34 GMT
> I know some of you order on-line, but are there any stores that carry
> it? I'm in Ontario, Canada. I would like to look at the bottle before
> I buy & try & I'm not going to order on-line without
really knowing
> more about it.

Do you have health food stores? If no luck:

http://www.iherb.com/alphasustain.html  Jarrow brand - slow
release.
Trinity - 01 Dec 2005 00:10 GMT
>>I know some of you order on-line, but are there any stores
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> http://www.iherb.com/alphasustain.html  Jarrow brand - slow
> release.

Yes we do. I'll have to check them out. I was surprised that the
pharmacy in the medical building did not have it. Although it's a small
pharmacy. I'll check out the more common health food stores.

I haven't tried our Shoppers Drug or other larger stores, so I'll be
doing that as well.

Thanks,
Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

Vicki Beausoleil - 01 Dec 2005 03:53 GMT
> >>I know some of you order on-line, but are there any stores
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> 40 lbs lost
> next goal: gain muscle strength

It's guaranteed that iherb will be WAY cheaper (Jan's link is 4 bottles
of 300mg for US$68 - $79.35CDN). The exchange rate is much better now
than when I last checked. The bottle I have I paid $18.99 for 60 - 100mg
gel capsules, Natural Factors brand. I got it at Nutrition House (I know
you've got a few of those where you are). They're not time released.
That's important, otherwise you'll have to space your dosage out
throughout the day. I've never seen time released ones here, nor have I
seen any with a larger dose than 100mg. Most places I've checked in the
past only had 50mg caps.

You're lucky you live in Ontario. Here in Quebec, I'm only allowed to
import a 30 day supply. When I order some in future, I'll go across the
river and get a post office box so I can get what I want, not what the
stupid government wants.

http://www.xrates.com for the currency calculator...

HTH

Vicki
Trinity - 02 Dec 2005 01:03 GMT
>>>>I know some of you order on-line, but are there any stores
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Vicki
Thanks,
I'm checking out the link now.
Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

Peter G. (Bigbird) - 02 Dec 2005 01:31 GMT
I've used SwansonVitamines.Com for most of my suppliments. I just looked and
ALA 300mg x 120 caps is currently $7.19 US plus shipping. This one uses rice
flour as a bulking agent if you need to know that. They seem to charge $4.95
S&H for one item or many.... my current order is seven items for that
charge. Worth a look?

BTW, I tried ALA 300mg x 2/day with little noticable results. I think I'll
try again along with EPO and C. I don't have a lot of neuropathy left but it
sure slows me down and I hobble around like someone older. I think most of
my gains were through bg control and weight loss.

Peter G.
Susan - 02 Dec 2005 01:41 GMT
> BTW, I tried ALA 300mg x 2/day with little noticable results.

Me, too.  Then I learned it has a very short half life and switched to a
time released formula.  I lost all my residual PNs on it within 3 mos.
Last winter they came back when my control worsened around the holidays,
and 1200 mg per day time released got rid of all of my PNs in one week.

Susan
Peter G. (Bigbird) - 02 Dec 2005 01:50 GMT
> x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Susan

Hmm, thanks for that input. I'll look into that scheme. What makes me think
I still have some PN is that bunched-up-sock feeling someone mentioned. That
hit's it on the head for me..

Peter G.
Ozgirl - 02 Dec 2005 02:19 GMT
> I've used SwansonVitamines.Com for most of my suppliments. I just
> looked and ALA 300mg x 120 caps is currently $7.19 US plus
shipping.
> This one uses rice flour as a bulking agent if you need to
know that.
> They seem to charge $4.95 S&H for one item or many.... my
current
> order is seven items for that charge. Worth a look?
>
> BTW, I tried ALA 300mg x 2/day with little noticable results. I think
> I'll try again along with EPO and C.

Yes, but what about a different brand? Yours is awfully
cheap... I really don't trust ultra cheap supplements.
Annette's trio makes sense.
Peter G. (Bigbird) - 02 Dec 2005 02:23 GMT
<<SNIP>>
>> BTW, I tried ALA 300mg x 2/day with little noticable
> results. I think
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cheap... I really don't trust ultra cheap supplements.
> Annette's trio makes sense.

Yes, I'm definitely considering a different formulation. You may have a
valid point here, thanks for voicing it.

PG
noneyabusiness - 02 Dec 2005 08:24 GMT
>> I've used SwansonVitamines.Com for most of my suppliments.
>I just
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>cheap... I really don't trust ultra cheap supplements.
>Annette's trio makes sense.

I thought I was getting all the "TLA"  supplements with the Flaxseed,
EPO and Fish oil I was taking. Then I read this thread :/
(Just in case: TLA = 3 letter acronym  ...  <g>.)

Sooo, I found a bottle of ALA at a local store. 60 softgels at 600 mg
for $31 (US). Seemed to be the best deal as all other choices were
lower doses and fewer servings for a higher comparable price.

No results to offer yet as it's only been a few days.

...
Jennifer - 02 Dec 2005 16:53 GMT
I use a timed release formula from Jarrow.

I found a good price here (and no I don't own stock ; )

This is for four bottles... but you can also buy one.
http://www.provitaminas.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Prod
uct_Code=200104


Free shipping too.

Jennifer

>>>I've used SwansonVitamines.Com for most of my suppliments.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> ...
noneyabusiness - 02 Dec 2005 23:58 GMT
>I use a timed release formula from Jarrow.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Jennifer

I saw the Jarrow selection at the same store.
Although, it might not have been the sustained release formula.
Which ever one they had, it was cheaper than the $60 that your
sustained release costs, but more expensive than what I bought (when
comparing overall dosage).

(BTW, the web page shows $60 PER bottle, not for 4 bottles ... ?)

...

[snip]

>> I thought I was getting all the "TLA"  supplements with the Flaxseed,
>> EPO and Fish oil I was taking. Then I read this thread :/
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> ...
Jennifer - 03 Dec 2005 02:25 GMT
I think you're misreading.

It's $60 for a SET of four bottles.

Alpha Lipoic Sustain 60 tab. "Set of 4 Bottles" **Sugg. Retail $119.80**
Code: 200104
Price: $59.99

I've bought many sets over the years from them.  I also get my DHA fish
oil there.

Jennifer

>>I use a timed release formula from Jarrow.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>>
>>>...
noneyabusiness - 03 Dec 2005 10:05 GMT
>I think you're misreading.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Jennifer

[snip]

Yup, brain-farted ;-)

...
Susan - 30 Nov 2005 22:47 GMT
A new abstract:

 Pharmazie. 2005 Oct;60(10):772-5.     Related Articles, Links

    Lipoic acid improves glucose utilisation and prevents protein
glycation and AGE formation.

    Thirunavukkarasu V, Anitha Nandhini AT, Anuradha CV.

    Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, Annamalai
University, Annamalainagar, Tamil Nadu, India.

    The present study investigates the antiglycating effect of
alpha-lipoic acid (LA) in high fructose-fed rats in vivo and its
potential to inhibit the process of glycation in vitro. In addition, the
effect of LA on glucose utilisation in rat diaphragm was also studied.
Rats fed a high fructose diet (60% total calories) were administered
with 35 mg/kg b.w, lipoic acid (LA) intraperitoneally for 20 days. The
effects of LA on plasma glucose, fructosamine, protein glycation and
glycated haemoglobin in high fructose rats and on in vitro glycation
were studied. In vitro utilization of glucose was carried out in normal
rat diaphragm in the presence and absence of insulin in which LA was
used as an additive. The contents of glucose, glycated protein, glycated
haemoglobin and fructosamine were significantly lowered on LA
administration to high fructose-fed rats. LA prevented in vitro
glycation and the accumulation of advanced glycation end products.
Further LA enhanced glucose utilization in the rat diaphragm. This
effect was additive to that of insulin and did not interfere with the
action of insulin. The findings provide evidence for the therapeutic
utility of lipoic acid in diabetes and its complications.

    PMID: 16259126 [PubMed - in process]

Susan
Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 07:55 GMT
G'day G'day Susan,

You're a gem.   60% of calories from fructose is one heck of a dose
of rats since they are more sensitive to fructose than humans.  

For that matter 60% of calories from fructose would be one heck of a
dose for humans.

What is fascinating is that lipoic acid reduced the glycation of
protein.

Best wishes,
Quentin.

This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:47:18 -0500, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Susan

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 08:07 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:55:46 +1300, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>You're a gem.   60% of calories from fructose is one heck of a dose
>of rats since they are more sensitive to fructose than humans.  
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Best wishes,
>Quentin.

I should also add that 35 mg/kg is one heck of a dose of lipoic acid
in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting alpha lipoic acid confer the same
benefits to diabetics. For a 100 kg T2 that would be 3500 mg per day.
I don't know of anyone who has trialed such crazily high doses.

OK, it is isn't usual to do a straight kg conversion from rats to
humans but hopefully the eternally optimistic will see the need for
caution.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Susan - 01 Dec 2005 16:54 GMT
> G'day G'day Susan,
>
>  You're a gem.

<*yawn*> Yeah, I hear that every day.  ;-)

  60% of calories from fructose is one heck of a dose
> of rats since they are more sensitive to fructose than humans.  
>
> For that matter 60% of calories from fructose would be one heck of a
> dose for humans.

Yes, the intention is to quickly induce diabetes in the rats for
experimental purposes, so they sure do dose them up!

> What is fascinating is that lipoic acid reduced the glycation of
> protein.

Yes, halting the formation of AGEs seems to be a lot of the ballgame.

Susan
Alan S - 01 Dec 2005 00:41 GMT
>Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range.

Wonderful! Congratulations.

>I told her about the burning in my feet & asked her about alpha
> lipoic acid. She did not know anything about it. So it looks
> like I'm on my own on tht one.

About ALA or burning feet? If the latter, it sounds like
it's second opinion time. That's not good enough.

Good luck in your search. Others may be able to offer advice
on the specialty area.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

guy - 01 Dec 2005 01:30 GMT
>>Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
This item has had good reports
from some people.   It is a common
item.  IN some cases where a scam artist is not
the one touting a "cure", it might be cheaper
to buy some and try it.  Go to the
archives to look at past posts in this area,

Good control is the necessary item in
all cases.  Lots are eating themselves into
much misery.
                              Guy
                            Guy
Trinity - 02 Dec 2005 00:46 GMT
>>>Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>                                Guy
>                              Guy

Thanks Guy,
I guess all I can do is try it and see. Gotta find it first :)

Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

Trinity - 02 Dec 2005 00:42 GMT
>>Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range.
>
> Wonderful! Congratulations.

Thanks!

>>I told her about the burning in my feet & asked her about alpha
>>lipoic acid. She did not know anything about it. So it looks
>>like I'm on my own on tht one.
>
> About ALA or burning feet? If the latter, it sounds like
> it's second opinion time. That's not good enough.

About the ALA. After my appt. I went to do another blood test for B12 &
Ferrin. She did write down the ALA in my record, so maybe she'll look
into it???

> Good luck in your search. Others may be able to offer advice
> on the specialty area.
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

Annette - 01 Dec 2005 12:03 GMT
> Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range. I told
> her about the burning in my feet & asked her about alpha lipoic acid.
> She did not know anything about it. So it looks like I'm on my own on
> tht one. I did check the pharmacy in the bldg if they had any. The lady
> did not know what that was & they didn't carry it.

Hi there Trinity,

Burning feet is often caused by peripheral neuropathy, and normally it is
advisable first off to get your bg levels down. But you've obviously
achieved excellent control, so that's covered.
But damage can also be caused by blocked blood vessels in the legs, (called
claudation), or deformed red blood cells, which prevents sufficient blood
(and therefore oxygen) from reaching the feet, and in particular the nerves
there. Have you been tested for this problem? Any qualified podiatrist can
do this test. Most doctors will simply feel for a good pulse in the foot,
but sometimes this is not sufficient to detect a problem. In either case,
the end result is damage to the nerves of the feet.

So what can be done to help lower the pain or even heal such damage?

There are a number of strategies and helpful substances that might do some
good. Some very good ideas can be found at;
http://www.geocities.com/bsy53/dn/neuropat.html
A MULTIDISCIPLINARY APPROACH TO DIABETIC NEUROPATHY TREATMENT

The authjor explains why your doctor does not appear to know much about all
this;
"The average time it takes medical research findings to enter clinical
practice is best measured in decades. But this problem is known and may be
rectified, eventually; see (Owen, 1995). Until that time comes around, it is
the patient who is the ultimate loser. In the meantime, the best strategy is
to arm oneself and/or one's physician with as many pertinent facts as are
necessary
to make more fully-informed decisions about the management of your neuropath
y.

There is a vast amount of medical research extant on sound, valuable
remedies that ultimately end up ignored for lack of promotion (usually due
to limited profit potential) in spite of being, demonstrably, the most
effective ones available. Thus we have found a treatment which emphasizes
the judicious use of nutrients together with the novel use of some
prescription drugs. "

I do recommend that you read the whole article for a better understanding of
what you can do to that might help yourself to deal with your condition.

Please note that the author states; "First, it is important to get an
examination by a physician to get a correct diagnosis."

Having dealt with a detailed look at neuropathy and it's causes, he then
explains how nutritional therapy might help as an adjunct to the more
traditional medical assistance;
"So the aim of a nutritional treatment is to:
Change the lipid characteristics of blood corpuscles to make them more
deformable.
Induce angiogenesis; (regenerate the capillaries thus obviating the
consequences of continuing  neural hypoxia).
Encourage nerve growth.
Increase the overall oxygen-delivery capacity of the blood circulation
system."

Secondly, he recommends that ALA is combined with gamma-linolenic acid
(GLA), which is found in oils extracted from either Evening Primrose Oil
(EPO) or borage seeds. Most of those who take the oil in capsules use EPO.

"Recent experimental work confirms that GLA-aLA (equimolar) conjugate is so
effective that it completely reverses the effects of the broken neurotrophic
mechanisms that correlate with diabetic neuropathy."

"It is well documented that the first step in the conversion of the
essential fatty acid (EFA) linoleic acid to gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) is
broken in diabetics. In more severe cases the EFA metabolism is broken in
two places....  The result of this broken process is shortage of GLA and its
metabolites; prostacyclin and prostaglandins. Diabetic neuropathy is a
progressive disease that is most probably caused by the effects of a chronic
deficiency of prostacyclin and prostaglandins. This is central to the
pathogenesis of diabetic neuropathy."

Thirdly, he also recommends that Vitamin C be added to the combo, because;
"........ showed that a novel essential fatty acid derivative ascorbyl-GLA
was 40 times as efficacious as GLA as a treatment for neuropathy.
........... but the same study showed that GLA plus ascorbate was over 75%
as efficacious as ascorbyl-GLA.
Ascorbate (vitamin C) is flushed from the human body every 5 hours, so it is
prudent to always take it together with the GLA."

Do take note that ALA is an anti-hyperglycemic, which means it can lower bg,
so once you start taking it, it would be wise to monitor your bg levels and
make adjustments if necessary, to prevent a possible hypo.

He then goes on to discuss vitamins and minerals and other nutrients that
may also prove beneficial. Some of them are readily available in ordinary
foods, so I leave that for you to work out.

In some other studies on this subject, it is recommended that the triple
combination of ALA, EPO and Vit C be taken on an empty stomach about 1 hr
before a meal, preferably breakfast, for best absorbtion. My stomach has not
complained to date, but remember, YMMV.

As for purchasing ALA, the brand I use is made by Solgar, a US company, and
sold in many countries, including Australia. I found that if I enquire, many
health food shops can order it in for you. It all depends on what is
approved for use and sale in Canada.

I hope this helps,

Annette
Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 16:28 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 12:03:04 GMT, "Annette" <acianthus@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>"Recent experimental work confirms that GLA-aLA (equimolar) conjugate is so
>effective that it completely reverses the effects of the broken neurotrophic
>mechanisms that correlate with diabetic neuropathy."

G'day G'day Annette,

Darn, I feel some calculation coming on to put that in a mg ratio.

Best wishes and thank you for an excellent post.

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Trinity - 02 Dec 2005 01:09 GMT
>>Ok, saw my dr. today. Great results, A1C 5.6 all lipids in range. I told
>>her about the burning in my feet & asked her about alpha lipoic acid.
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
>
> Annette

Yes, thank  you Annette, that is very helpful.
Since I already go low with exercise, I probably would want to start
with a small dose. I seem to have lowered my insulin resistance quite a
bit, so I feel I'm more susceptible to drop.

I haven't had a chance to check out any health stores yet, but it's on
my list to do.

Cheers,
Trinity

Signature

trinitytype2@nospamyahoo.ca
remove nospam
dx Oct 2003, Type 2,
metformin 500mg/2xday
low dose aspirin 3x week
walking 30 min/day
A1C 5.4
40 lbs lost
next goal: gain muscle strength

morrisolder@earthlink.net - 03 Dec 2005 01:26 GMT
Annette,

Thanks for the info on ALA/GLA.  I have had good luck with ALA in the
past, and credit it somewhat for reversing 85-90% of my neuropathy
symptoms. Hard to be sure because it coincided with bringing my blood
sugar into good control, so what exactly did cause what? I tend to
think they both made a big difference. But that last 5-10% of
neuropathy in  my feet--the scrunched up sock feeling, some
numbness--has resisted improvement, and I'd like to see if the ALA/EPO
combo can root it out. Forgive me if I am being lazy, but did you, or
does the article you cited or is it somewhere else suggested how much
EPO and Vit C should go with the ALA, or what the proportion should be?
Annette - 03 Dec 2005 10:44 GMT
> Annette,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> does the article you cited or is it somewhere else suggested how much
> EPO and Vit C should go with the ALA, or what the proportion should be?

The article does give the proportions of ALA to GLA for best results, but
not for the Vit C.  It does not seem to be as relevant.

It also lists other substances that may also help reduce the symptoms and/or
assist in healing the damaged nerves. Do keep in mind that it may take some
time to see the improvements. Even if that kind of reversal (85-90%), is
certainly worth celebrating, considering that without such efforts, the
condition may have very well continued to worsen.

Peripheral neuropathy is, despite the pain, one of the less life-threatening
conditions of neuropathy, unless the damage leads to the necessity of an
ampution of one of your limbs. Other nerves are also being affected too, but
you might not realise it until you are diagnosed with gastroparesis or even
a heart condition. This more hidden damage is called Autonomic Neuropathy,
and may affect many internal organs. It is one of the main causes of the
erectile disfunction that is so dreaded by male diabetics, for instance. If
the nervous system at risk, it may be damaged in other areas as well, with
serious consequences.

So rejoice that you now have recognisable improvement in something you can
personally monitor. The same benefits are happening elsewhere, even if you
can't feel it.

Annette
morrisolder@earthlink.net - 04 Dec 2005 03:33 GMT
Annette,

Thanks for your answer. Actually I am thrilled with the 85-90%
improvement and have strongly  recommended ALA to others with
neuropathy. I'm not sure where you are, but in the US, because it is a
supplement rahter than a drug and thus not regulated by the FDA, it
pretty much doesn't exist as far as doctors here are concerned. My
doctor said go ahead and try it, but neither he nor my neurologist
really knew about it until I told them I would be using it.

But as far as I know,  or at least I thought that, the studies I have
read show it to be effective with peripheral neuropathy, but do not
mention it in relation to autonomous neuropathy of any kind, including
ED. And yet since it seems like they are in most cases probably caused
by the same thing as peripheral neuropathy, high out of control blood
sugars, it would seem like ALA and maybe ALA/EPO could very well have
the same effect on AN as PN.  Which in fact you seem to be hinting at
in your response that the same benefits are happening elsewhere even if
you can't feel it.  Is that logical cnnection something you have read
about in the same way that I missed it in the literature? I'm not
asking you to search for the relevant links, just to affirm that I
probably missed it--probably because I was so focused on the PN.

Another thing on ALA.  After over a year it seemed to be having no
effect. I wondered if it was useful any longer. I had been averaging a
5.0 A1c over that time, so I felt confident that I was not creating
more neuorpathy, and my symptoms had stabilized. When I looked at the
literature, the studies I found all seemed to say it made a big
difference (though not for everyone)  in a period of 2-4 months. I did
not see anything suggesting take it forever, although this time I did
not search as thoroughly as I had when I first started taking it. So I
stopped taking it, about  ten months ago, with seemingly no change in
symptoms.   Do you know anything about the effectiveness of ALA or
ALA/EPO over a long period? Does it continue improvement, or does it do
its job as far as it can and then lose its effectiveness?
Annette - 04 Dec 2005 07:27 GMT
> Annette,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> doctor said go ahead and try it, but neither he nor my neurologist
> really knew about it until I told them I would be using it.

That your doctor knows nothing about it is not unusual - doctors in general
practise need to know something about almost everything, are always
overworked, and simply do not have the time or energy to keep up with so
many things. They do their best, but usually refer patients to a relevant
specialist when their own expertise is limited.

OTOH, I would have thought that a neurologist would be better informed.
Still, many are very cognicant of the current pharmaceutical studies and
treatments, but take little interest in what are still considered
"alternative medicine", seeing it as being in the "quack" area. They do not
take any interest in the more recent studies being done on certain
substances, even those used in say, places like Germany, where substances
like ALA are treated with more interest, and are even commonly prescribed .

> But as far as I know,  or at least I thought that, the studies I have
> read show it to be effective with peripheral neuropathy, but do not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> you can't feel it.  Is that logical cnnection something you have read
> about in the same way that I missed it in the literature?

You are quite right. I have simply drawn a logical link between the two
conditions - the separation, IMO, is more one of medical convenience, rather
than being based on the underlying clinical causes of the damage to the
nerves and the nerve sheath, going by what I have read about it. I do not
have any sites that talk about using the same modality for treating
autonomous neuropathy, apart from the necessity of gaining good glycemic
control.
Just about every article I have read on the many kinds of diabetic
complications do agree on that one!  Even if it does not actually reverse
(heal) the damage, (and it may, in some cases), it seems to be universally
agreed that lowering bg levels slows the progression of these otherwise
quite varied conditions.

>I'm not
> asking you to search for the relevant links, just to affirm that I
> probably missed it--probably because I was so focused on the PN.

No, I do not have any links for you, but there may be others in this group
that may have come across the information you are seeking.

> Another thing on ALA.  After over a year it seemed to be having no
> effect. I wondered if it was useful any longer. I had been averaging a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> ALA/EPO over a long period? Does it continue improvement, or does it do
> its job as far as it can and then lose its effectiveness?

I don't know. In fact, I don't even suffer from peripheral neuropathy
myself. But it seems to me to be so important that I use the protocol daily,
in hopes of it being pro-active, ie helping to prevent damage. Since it is
prescibed in Geramany for T2 diabetics generally, there are probably other
benefits of which I am unaware. It appears to be helpful in lowering bg
levels to some degree without any apparent risk of side affects, and that's
worth considering for starters.

Neuropathy is only one of the metabolic complications that we are prone to
suffer. I hold the position that it is my choice to do all *I* can to lower
that risk.

As for further improvement in the neuropathy, I might speculate that some
damage may very well be irreversable. Nerves can be difficult to re-grow in
some cases, and may never recover. As for the length of time, in one area I
looked into - ie peripheral neuropathy caused by exposure to hexane, it was
noted that this condition could take at least 2 years to improve, (without
any medical intervention apart from removing the patient from the chemical
exposure), and in some cases the damage was permanent.

Speaking of hexane, it is a powerful solvent used to extract edible oils
from seeds and grains. Testing by the FDA has revealed that despite claims
that the amount remaining in the oil is so small as to be negligable, much
larger and significant amounts do remain in such products as to be caused
for concern. For the cautious, perhaps a good reason to use cold-pressed
oils rather than the much cheaper processed "regular" ones on sale
everywhere. But I digress.

It's up to you to decide what is in your own best interests - and I include
financial cost as one of the considerations.

I wish you all the best,

Annette
morrisolder@earthlink.net - 05 Dec 2005 01:28 GMT
Thanks for your reply Annette, even if mostly it was confriming what I
knew.

the frustrating part about some of this is that the more you
investigate,. and the more you know, it often turns out that that the
new information you have learned is just learning how much you still
have to learn!

Knowing the limits of your knowledge, and the limits of the knowledge
available out there, however does have a lot of value.  Even knowing
what questions are worth pursuing is quite valuable.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.