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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2005

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Defending ADA's A1C Target

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Sarah - 29 Nov 2005 06:33 GMT
http://tinyurl.com/bmydm
mrslang - 29 Nov 2005 08:04 GMT
> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm

the article seems to buy into the myth about what the ADA has regarding
what a1c goals, which is not what they advise...

this is from their own site...

"The better your glucose control, the less likely you are to develop
complications of diabetes.  An A1C in the sevens (7s), however, does
not represent good control.  The ADA goal is LESS than 7 percent.  The
closer your A1C is to the normal range (less than 6 percent), the lower

your chances of complications.  However, you increase your risk of
hypoglycemia, especially if you have type 1 diabetes.  Talk with your
health care provider about the best goal for you."

the key words "less than 6 percent)

Sally
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 29 Nov 2005 00:04:13 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
wrote:

>> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm
>
>the article seems to buy into the myth about what the ADA has regarding
>what a1c goals, which is not what they advise...

ROTFL

G'day G'day Sally,

The article was written by Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, is
national vice president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes
Association.

My guess he is au fait with ADA policy.  If you say he has bought into
a myth, that is OK with me. Just know that you are the one saying it
and what the implications are of saying it.

>this is from their own site...
>
>"The better your glucose control, the less likely you are to develop
>complications of diabetes.  An A1C in the sevens (7s), however, does
>not represent good control.  The ADA goal is LESS than 7 percent.  The
>closer your A1C is to the normal range (less than 6 percent), the lower

Which only makes it funnier.

>your chances of complications.  However, you increase your risk of
>hypoglycemia, especially if you have type 1 diabetes.  Talk with your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Sally

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 17:03 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> a myth, that is OK with me. Just know that you are the one saying it
> and what the implications are of saying it.

Sallys point was correct.  however i think she missed the
reason for the article.
it was about why the ADA and the AACE targets are different.
I think Sally took it as advice on what goals a diabetic should truely
look to achieve.  and a newbie should not use either site to look for any
kind of goals
the best way is to talk to their doctors about it and yes do their own
research but talk to
their doctor before making changes.  of course i am talking about non expert
newbies
not the newbies here that become experts in just a matter of weeks.
in another place I doubt Sally would have ever made that post.
Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow
ADA's Diabetes Learning Center
http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
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Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:39 GMT
of course i am talking about non
> expert newbies
> not the newbies here that become experts in just a matter of weeks.

Like you did? No, you became an expert in about 5 days.
Alan S - 29 Nov 2005 09:08 GMT
> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm

Interesting article. The basic flaw for type 2's appears
here:

"However, we must consider the cost-benefit relationship.
Placing the patient on another oral medication or starting
the patient on insulin needs to be weighed against the
potential benefit of further A1C reduction. If the question
is, "What should be done to decrease my patient's A1C from
6.9% (meeting the ADA target) to 6.5% (meeting the AACE
target)?" it must be realized that within that range of A1C
reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on
current data."

Read that again, and see if you can find any mention of
diet, lifestyle or exercise. The basic assumption is that
the ONLY way to decrease the patient's A1c is "another oral
medication or starting the patient on insulin".

And, unfortunately they are correct if the philosophy
followed is based on this:

"The message today: Eat more whole grains!  Whole grains and
starches are good for you because they have very little fat,
saturated fat, or cholesterol.  They are packed with
vitamins, minerals, and fiber.  Yes, foods with carbohydrate
-- starches, vegetables, fruits, and dairy products -- will
raise your blood glucose more quickly than meats and fats,
but they are the healthiest foods for you.  Your doctor may
need to adjust your medications when you eat more
carbohydrates. You may need to increase your activity level
or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day."
http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp

If you follow that advice, then your doctor has no choice
but to "adjust your medications when you eat more
carbohydrates" if you are over the recommended ADA A1c of
7%.

Somehow, the possibility that those starches may be why you
are over 7% in the first place just doesn't seem to be
getting through.

Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, who wrote:

"(meeting the ADA target) to 6.5% (meeting the AACE
target)?" it must be realized that within that range of A1C
reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on
current data"

needs to read, among others, some quite old data from the
EPIC-Norfolk study of Jan 2001:
http://tinyurl.com/auxr2
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/322/7277/15?maxtoshow=&HITS=&hit
s=&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=EPIC-Norfo
lk+HbA1c&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1133254541690_817&stored_search=&FIRSTI
NDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1


"An increase of 1% in HbA1c was associated with a 28%
(P<0.002) increase in risk of death independent of age,
blood pressure, serum cholesterol, body mass index, and
cigarette smoking habit; this effect remained (relative risk
1.46, P=0.05 adjusted for age and risk factors) after men
with known diabetes, a HbA1c concentration >= 7%, or history
of myocardial infarction or stroke were excluded."

If you read that study fully, it will become clear that they
are talking about the risk below 7%. Of course, things get
worse above it.

I find it interesting that the ADA has become defensive
enough to see a need to publish this statement.

Shades of Portia.

“Methinks she doth protest too much”

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Jenny - 29 Nov 2005 15:06 GMT
>>http://tinyurl.com/bmydm
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on
> current data."

Unless you are fond of your beta cells, kidneys, eyes, and toes.

Here's a study published by the ADA that correlates an a1c of 7% with an
average blood sugar of 170 mg/dl. (And then tells doctors not to have
patients test!)
http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169

An average of 170 mg/dl probably includes many hours when the blood
sugar is over 200 mg/dl--a level at which the immune system is
compromised, insulin resistance heightened, and very bad things happen
to the microvasculature.

If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which
appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target.
If it is to save your health, I'll go with what my doctors said: "Lower
is better!"
It is irresponsible to

--Jenny

http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/  Type 2 Diabetes info
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/  Low Carb info
Wes Groleau - 29 Nov 2005 23:56 GMT
> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which
> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target.

How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ?

Signature

Wes Groleau
  "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
   the courage to change the one I can;
   and the wisdom to know it's me."
                               -- unknown

Ma¢k - 30 Nov 2005 00:10 GMT
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:56:26 GMT, Wes Groleau
<groleau+news@freeshell.org> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:

>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which
>> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target.
>
>How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ?

because in america, by the time most of these occur you lose your job,
and then lose your insurance and then have to damn near reach the
poverty level or below before the government steps in and starts
helping to cover the cost.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

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Jenny - 30 Nov 2005 01:01 GMT
>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which
>> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target.
>
> How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ?

Maybe it is because by the time you have all the complications you've
lost your job and hence your health insurance so it is costing someone
ELSE money. <wry grin>

Whatever the explanation, all the ADA articles arguing against testing
or earlier diagnosis make th point that these behaviors would not be
cost effective.
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:06 GMT
>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money

I wonder just how many diabetes get there medical needs paid for by the
government
and not insurance companies.
From everything I have read i would think the number is pretty high.

Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow
ADA's Diabetes Learning Center
http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index
Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies.
http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html

Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:35 GMT
>>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money
>
> I wonder just how many diabetes get there medical needs paid for by
> the government
> and not insurance companies.
> From everything I have read i would think the number is pretty high.

Then you read wrong.
mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT
> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which
> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target.

but as I proved the ADA advises less than 6% if possible.  but that
doesn't fit in with your bitter cynical and pathetic hating about the
ADA so you spin things however you want to that will fit your unhealthy
low carb agenda.  sad really.

Sally
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 03:05 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
wrote:

>but that
>doesn't fit in with your bitter cynical and pathetic hating about the
>ADA so you spin things however you want to that will fit your unhealthy
>low carb agenda.  sad really.
>
>Sally

G'day G'day Sally,

I see you have taken to arguing with the judgment of Nathaniel G.
Clark, MD, MS, RD, is national vice president, clinical affairs for
the American Diabetes Association.  The bloke shouldn't publish unless
he knows what he is talking about. <yeah, right>

Lighten up.  See the funny side of all this.  

Nathaniel made some good points in his article eg that most diabetics
in America are way out of control by anybody's standard except perhaps
their own.
 
If you'd like to discuss some of them I'm willing.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 04:38 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Lighten up.  See the funny side of all this.

well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the
article, but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more
confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted.  so many
in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising
someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand
on it is.

I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the
continual ADA bashing in here.  and mostly by the low carb zealots who
hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs.  so
forgive me if I don't laugh about that.

what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't
find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements.
or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning.

Sally
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 08:32 GMT
> I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the
> continual ADA bashing in here.  and mostly by the low carb zealots who
> hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs.  so
> forgive me if I don't laugh about that.

I'd be interested in knowing who the low carb zealots are in
here. Last one I can remember was Bob the Boob whose ISP
obviously didn't like him giving no carb advice to Madison.
Apart from Chung rubbish, Murray and Chuck and Budd arguing,
I read every post in it's entirety and I am wondering where
you get the low carb zealot/mentality thing from. I could
understand if you were in the low carb group, where people
are losing weight and like purple pee pee sticks but in
here? You really need to spend more time in that group to
understand what real low carbing is.

I see many in here who share their carb "lowering"
experiences, is that what you are commenting on? There are
few "zealots" in here at present, religious, anti aspartame
etc but one zealot stands out very clearly, a pro ADA/anti
anyone-who-uses-carb "lowering" zealot. I am sure you never
take a good hard look at yourself Sally. Whilst the rest of
us share our differing carb level diets, you just positively
foam at the mouth and little else.
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 09:09 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 29 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
wrote:

>well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the
>article,

G'day G'day Sally,

  This time the joke is on you, not that it matters much.  My point
is that just as there are people who habitually appear to attack the
ADA there are those who as habitually appear to defend it.  

You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour.
IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually attack
and some habitually defend the ADA. Surely there is some better
position eg looking at the upside and downside of their
recommendations somewhat dispassionately.

> but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more
>confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted.  so many
>in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising
>someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand
>on it is.

Sally, I believe Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, national vice
president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes Association is
stating the ADA's real stand on this. Think about it. It is likely
that most of the time the website pages are being written by the
public relations department with vetting by some committee or other.
Not this time.  This time they have felt under pressure and that
pressure has brought out the big guns to make an OFFICIAL statement.
Notice it is not some anonymous committee.  No, this one has someone's
status and no doubt future prospects on the line.  

>I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the
>continual ADA bashing in here.

Fair enough though bear this in mind.  Locally most people blame local
or national government when things they don't like happen. Politicians
learn to take it. I suspect the situation in similar in the US.  

> and mostly by the low carb zealots who
>hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs.  so
>forgive me if I don't laugh about that.

Laughing is optional.  There was a time when you did a lot of LOL.
It got to the point where you could have taken up a new career as a
street LOLLY vendor.  Today you call them zealots and describe their
beliefs as austere.  None of this helps dialogue.  

>what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't
>find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements.
>or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning.

Malicious and unfounded, eh?  

She has taken a position as have you.  What I don't see in your
malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally is any discussion let alone
refutation of the following.  

>> Here's a study published by the ADA that correlates an a1c of 7%
>> with an average blood sugar of 170 mg/dl. (And then tells doctors
>> not to have patients test!)
>> http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169

>Sally

Hey, I threw in malicious, unfounded and maligning only because they
seemed to be words you like. Anything to oblige.  <grin>  

Put simply I'd prefer people who want to discuss the ADA to discuss
what the ADA representatives actually say rather engaging in MUM,
malicious, unfounded maligning.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 18:37 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 29 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour.
> IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually attack

most in here

> and some habitually defend the ADA.

a few in here.

>Surely there is some better
> position eg looking at the upside and downside of their
> recommendations somewhat dispassionately.

never said the ADA is perfect but certainly not deserving of the
bashing they receive in here. and it's mostly from people who adhere to
a low carb diet because the ADA does not recommend it.

> > but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more
> >confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted.  so many
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Notice it is not some anonymous committee.  No, this one has someone's
> status and no doubt future prospects on the line.

well since the bashing in here is always about what the website says
then I think that holds a lot more importance than what one of their
people said in an article.

> >I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the
> >continual ADA bashing in here.
>
> Fair enough though bear this in mind.  Locally most people blame local
> or national government when things they don't like happen. Politicians
> learn to take it. I suspect the situation in similar in the US.

> > and mostly by the low carb zealots who
> >hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs.  so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> street LOLLY vendor.  Today you call them zealots and describe their
> beliefs as austere.  None of this helps dialogue.

like I said, I still LOL and will continue to push my LOL-Y cart. but
I'm not on drugs so I'm nt going to laugh like a hyena through
everything.  especially jenny's unfounded and bitter attacks.

> >what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't
> >find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements.
> >or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning.
>
> Malicious and unfounded, eh?

yes.  thanks for repeating those words.  don't get to see them enough
because no one seems to care what she says about the ADA.

> She has taken a position as have you.

hers is not a position, it is an assault.

>What I don't see in your
> malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally

I never do that to Sally, lol

>is any discussion let alone
> refutation of the following.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >> not to have patients test!)
> >> http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169

from the abstract:

"This article suggests that targeting fasting plasma glucose is more
beneficial when hemoglobin A1c (A1C) results are very high, whereas
targeting postprandial glucose is more effective when A1C results are
lower.

addresses a1c's...suggests...

and yet you conclude that "the ADA tells doctors not to have patients
test!"  you make it sound like they say never test your blood sugar.
sorry, we see different things in this article.  added to that....the
real issue here is what does their website advise...and as I've quoted
and others have that everyone is different and will have different
needs.

what does there website say?

> Hey, I threw in malicious, unfounded and maligning only because they
> seemed to be words you like. Anything to oblige.  <grin>

yeah, thanks for obliging. lol

> Put simply I'd prefer people who want to discuss the ADA to discuss
> what the ADA representatives actually say rather engaging in MUM,
> malicious, unfounded maligning.

I'd rather have them discuss the website and not something taken out of
context from one or two articles.  MUM is the word for what happens
when the letters ADA come up in here.

Sally
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:50 GMT
>> You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour.
>> IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually
>> attack
>
> most in here

We don't attack, we point out flaws.

>> and some habitually defend the ADA.
>
> a few in here.

Like behaviour is still like behaviour no matter how many
people involved.

>>Surely there is some better
>> position eg looking at the upside and downside of their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bashing they receive in here. and it's mostly from people who adhere
> to a low carb diet because the ADA does not recommend it.

If something that is right in your face regarding treatment
and has so many faults of course it is going to criticised.
And it is not criticised by just low carbers. There are very
few people in here who you could truly call low carbers and
a lot of them don't even participate in threads like this.
Please state who this large lot of zealots are - of course
you won't though.

> well since the bashing in here is always about what the website says
> then I think that holds a lot more importance than what one of their
> people said in an article.

Nice way of trying to wiggle out of a stuff up. Well done.

>> Laughing is optional.  There was a time when you did a lot of LOL.
>> It got to the point where you could have taken up a new career as a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I'm not on drugs so I'm nt going to laugh like a hyena through
> everything.  especially jenny's unfounded and bitter attacks.

Well you did behave like a hyena for a very long time.

>> >what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you
>> >don't find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and
unfounded
>> >statements. or maybe you just saw the funny side of her
maligning.

>> Malicious and unfounded, eh?
>
> yes.  thanks for repeating those words.  don't get to see them enough
> because no one seems to care what she says about the ADA.

If a person is justified then why criticise the critic? Your
defence of the ADA is somewhat lacking in proof. You never
back up your comments. But we have all come to expect that.

>> She has taken a position as have you.
>
> hers is not a position, it is an assault.

As is yours, pot kettle, no difference, once again you need
to take a good look at yourself. You assaulted Quentin, big
time, in your first post here. Name calling as well.
Strangely you were the only one that saw fault with his
comments. Which is even more strange in a group that will
usually have 40 or so attack your jugular if there is even a
whiff of anti-Americanism - no matter who you are. You are
such a hypocrite Sally, big time hypocrite.

>  >What I don't see in your
>> malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally
>
> I never do that to Sally, lol

Maybe you should.

> I'd rather have them discuss the website and not something taken out
> of context from one or two articles.  MUM is the word for
what happens
> when the letters ADA come up in here.

With all the hoohah you create, believe me, people do go
check to see if something is out of context. After all, one
shouldn't come to a debate half armed.
VBHol - 01 Dec 2005 01:18 GMT
 After all, one
> shouldn't come to a debate half armed.

Or to a battle of wits ;)

VBH
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:26 GMT
>> This post not CC'd by email
>>  On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the
> article,

i dont think the Joke is on you and it is not important to who wrote the
article.
what is important is what was written.
I dont recall reading in the article that patients should work with their
doctors
to set A1C goals.
and that i believe was your point.
they do talk as doctors what should be done to lower patients A1C's but
dont get into that patients should work with their doctor.
i think it was a good article and i believe your reaction has come about in
the
same way that Ceebees 1st reply to trinity ( the carbs thing ) came about.
i doubt either of you would have made those posts if this group didnt have
"I HATE THE ADA" agenda.

the first goal of below 7% should not be the final goal for myself
but it was my first goal.  my dx A1C was 13%

but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more
> confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted.  so many
> in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising
> someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand
> on it is.

they make it very clear that it is a YMMV thing and that is why doctors are
needed to help
most newbies. 7% is not a bad first goal for newbies or any diabetic that is
getting A1C's that
are much higher.  no where does it say that 7% should be the final goal.

> I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the
> continual ADA bashing in here.

many of us do not show our true personality here because of
the way things are here.

and mostly by the low carb zealots who
> hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs.  so
> forgive me if I don't laugh about that.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Sally

it doesn't surprise me.  they look at the ADA as their enemy
and I believe it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
its an attack the giant and share the rewards thing.
its fine to disagree with the ADA but to put it like
the ADA is the enemy and so much double talk really makes me wonder
what their motivation is.

Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow
ADA's Diabetes Learning Center
http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
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the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
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Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:37 GMT
> same way that Ceebees 1st reply to trinity ( the carbs thing ) came
> about. i doubt either of you would have made those posts
if this
> group didnt have "I HATE THE ADA" agenda.

Hate is such a strong word and you are wrong, as usual.
Finding flaws in something and hating something are two
different things. Go buy a clue.

> it doesn't surprise me.  they look at the ADA as their enemy
> and I believe it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

More lies.

> its an attack the giant and share the rewards thing.
> its fine to disagree with the ADA but to put it like
> the ADA is the enemy and so much double talk really makes me wonder
> what their motivation is.

You don't even know what double talk is, you just proved
that.
VBHol - 01 Dec 2005 01:30 GMT
> i doubt either of you would have made those posts if this group didnt have
> "I HATE THE ADA" agenda.

Can we have this resolved once and for all please?

You are a part of "this group" as much as anyone else.  But I doubt that
you mean the above in the literal sense....unless of course you want to
tell us why you hate the ADA.

Yes I am taking the piss.

But there is a serious point here.

You are claiming that persons whom you refuse to identify HATE
EVERYTHING about the ADA.

You are labelling EVERYONE EXCEPT yourself and Sally (presumably, from
what you have written) as those persons.

Note the emphasis.

You are making blanket statements here which clearly do not hold water
and are clearly guilty of exactly what you are accusing others of - a
blanket discrimination.

Care to be more specific?

Or do you really believe that everyone here bar two hates everything
about the ADA?

VBH
morrisolder@earthlink.net - 30 Nov 2005 05:20 GMT
"If the goal is to ... save your health, I'll go with what my doctors
said: "Lower
is better!"

Which, despite one sentence summary (A1c goal = 7)that we are so
familiar with, is exactly what the article says:

"ADA not only states that its goal is <7%, but also notes that it is
critical to include the following "key concepts in setting glycemic
goals":

   * The goals should be individualized.
   * Certain populations such as the elderly, young children, and
pregnant women require special considerations.
   * Less intensive goals may be appropriate in those with a history
of significant hypoglycemia or hypoglycemia unawareness.
   * More stringent goals (i.e., a normal A1C of <6%) may further
reduce the risk of microvascular complications at the cost of increased
risk of hypoglycemia.

ADA suggests that one should strive for the lowest A1C appropriate for
the patient based on these concepts."
Donna Evleth - 29 Nov 2005 20:37 GMT
> From: Alan S <loralweightandcarbs@optusnet.com.au>
> Organization: self
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the ONLY way to decrease the patient's A1c is "another oral
> medication or starting the patient on insulin".

This sounds like the GP who gave me my metformin disaster.

> And, unfortunately they are correct if the philosophy
> followed is based on this:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day."
> http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp

Ah yes, whole grains.  I am coeliac, and whole grains will not poison me
next year or the year after, they will poison me within the next twelve
hours.

Why is so much diabetic advice based on the principle of "one size fits all"
when in fact this is one of the most individual diseases?  Everyone's body
reacts differently.

> If you follow that advice, then your doctor has no choice
> but to "adjust your medications when you eat more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> are over 7% in the first place just doesn't seem to be
> getting through.

One size fits all again.

I will add also that my ox is not gored here, as my last A1c was 5.5%.

Donna Evleth
Sarah - 30 Nov 2005 00:28 GMT
>> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm
>>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.

Everyone missed the whole point of the article. Re-read the statement:
"Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S.,
diabetes experts often estimate that it is 8.5-9%. This suggests that we
should spend less time discussing what the goal should be and more time
discussing how to improve glycemic control, and thereby get more of our
patients to either goal. This point is particularly true when one realizes
that, based on available data, we would accomplish far more by targeting
those with high A1Cs and decreasing their A1Cs significantly than by arguing
about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are
doing well by either standard."

Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7%
advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests
average 5.8%.

If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it
would be a vast improvement.

Sarah
T1
Alan S - 30 Nov 2005 07:10 GMT
<snip>
>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7%
>advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests
>average 5.8%.

Excellent.

>If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it
>would be a vast improvement.

True - except for those like us under 7%.

>Sarah
>T1

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 08:15 GMT
> <snip>
>>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7%
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
> True - except for those like us under 7%.

And a mean goal wouldn't help me personally. Whilst it would
be nice to see everyone else attaining non diabetic numbers
(or even "good" diabetic numbers) I am more concerned with
what I personally attain.
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:12 GMT
> Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7%
> advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my
> tests average 5.8%.

I work mostly with my doctor and dietitian the ADA web site is one of many
places
i get my information from.
while the ADA suggests that an A1C below 7% is good - it was my first goal.
now i will not be happy unless i remain in the 5% club. the ADA web site is
for information
only. if you follwer their advice you will work with your doctor and
make changes to your lifestyle - not follow the numbers on their page.

Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow
ADA's Diabetes Learning Center
http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm
Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index
Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies.
http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html

>
> If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it
> would be a vast improvement.
>
> Sarah
> T1
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:35 GMT
>> Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the
>> 7% advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my
goals at 6%
>> and my tests average 5.8%.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> while the ADA suggests that an A1C below 7% is good - it was my first
> goal. now i will not be happy unless i remain in the 5%
club.

You don't have a clue what any of your numbers are.
Wes Groleau - 01 Dec 2005 01:59 GMT
> Everyone missed the whole point of the article. Re-read the statement:
> "Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S.,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are
> doing well by either standard."

The whole article, as well as the above point,
was excellent by itself.  The problem is that
(1) ADA's dietary advice is inconsistent, but
(2) their good advice doesn't seem to get noticed
much in the outside world, and what does get noticed
is advice that is proven to prevent most diabetics
from ever getting down to a reasonable A1c.

I vigorously oppose high-carb advice.  That does not
make me a low carb zealot.  If you cannot understand
that, how about: "I vigorously oppose drunk driving.
That does not make me a prohibitionist."

Signature

Wes Groleau

You always have time for what you do first.

Sarah - 01 Dec 2005 03:24 GMT
> The whole article, as well as the above point,
> was excellent by itself.  The problem is that
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that, how about: "I vigorously oppose drunk driving.
> That does not make me a prohibitionist."

I don't want to participate is an argument about good or bad advice given by
the ADA. A lot of what is considered bad advice is taken from articles that
were not meant for the general public. Articles taken from their Journals
are targeted for specific groups, not patients. What is considered as
inconsistency by the ADA is usually different advice given to different
target groups.

Maybe I am to blame for some of the misunderstanding, I have posted links to
articles that were not intended for diabetic patients. I will try not to do
that in the future.

Sarah
T1
Alan S - 01 Dec 2005 07:31 GMT
>> The whole article, as well as the above point,
>> was excellent by itself.  The problem is that
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Sarah
>T1

Sorry, Sarah, but on that one I vehemently disagree.

Censorship is NOT the solution. Whether the comments or
advice are "targeted" for patients or practitioners or
lobbyists or researchers is irrelevant to the coherence and
uniformity of those comments or quality of that advice.

If it isn't meant to be read by us ignorant plebs who happen
to have the afflictions being discussed, then they shouldn't
publish it in sources we can access on the web. Far too many
bureaucracies see outsiders as mushrooms - to be kept in the
dark and fed manure. The internet has set us free.

If I had treated my diabetes with only that information fed
to me by my medical staff - I would still have an A1c over
7% and breakfast post-prandials over 15(270). Definitely a
mushroom.

They should, IMO, definitely split their advice into at
least two targets - type 1 and type 2. It's a pity they
don't do that instead of the targeting you imply is
occurring.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Nicky - 01 Dec 2005 13:35 GMT
> Maybe I am to blame for some of the misunderstanding, I have posted links
> to articles that were not intended for diabetic patients. I will try not
> to do that in the future.

Please continue to do so. I don't want to waste my time reading stuff that
has been cleared for a lowest common denominator!

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.6/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/73/72Kg

Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 07:30 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:28:27 -0800, "Sarah"
<sarahpa1980nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Everyone missed the whole point of the article.

G'day G'day Sarah,

If you yourself had missed the point you wouldn't now be commenting as
you have done.  That means "everyone" has been reduced to "everyone
minus one"  

I noticed it.  

So that makes "everyone", "everyone minus two".

"Everyone" is shrinking.   A new relativity is born.  <grin>

> Re-read the statement:
>"Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S.,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>patients to either goal. This point is particularly true when one realizes
>that, based on available data, we would accomplish far more by targeting
                              ^^^^  
>those with high A1Cs and decreasing their A1Cs significantly than by arguing
>about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are
>doing well by either standard."

The most interesting word in that paragraph may well be the "we".  It
basically implies that in the opinion of a vice president of the ADA
the more important goal for them is getting to the great unwashed
masses who push the mean A1c in the U.S. up to around 8.5 or 9%   Put
simply they are not so interested in gains to be achieved from having
tighter post prandial control as AACE. I'm slightly curious as to why
not.  

The AACE advocates < 140 mg/dL and the ADA advocates < 180 mg/dL

Who better to state the ADA position than Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS,
RD, national vice president, clinical affairs for the American
Diabetes Association?   I'll accept the post prandial guidelines
stated by him as fact.

How is that two well heeled organisations in the same country,
governed by the same statutes, reading the same literature, having the
same resources to research the same data etc have reached different
conclusions?

IMHO it isn't complicated.  

They have a different client base.  The AACE caters for a more select
client base.  Those whose personal wealth either directly or via
better insurance allows them to avail themselves of a better standard
of care ie to go to endocrinologists.  Presumably endocrinologists can
give more personalised advice on matters of choice of insulin etc. The
AACE aren't for some reason expressing the same level of concern as
the ADA over hypos. This seems strange until one realises that with
better standards of care, more personalised advice etc is reasonable
to assume that such unfortunate events are likely to be a lesser risk.

The ADA doesn't have such a luxury.  It has to deal with a situation
where the average A1c is STILL almost 9% even including those who have
benefited from the AACE, the ADA and other agencies.  They have to
deal with poorly controlled T1s.  IMHO out of control T1s are likely
to have more highs and more hypos.  (It is hard to choose the right
words here because phases such as poorly controlled and tightly
controlled have come to have specific meaning in terms of A1c)

For the me the simplest solution is to assume both guidelines are
correct ... correct that is for the assumptions made by the respective
organisations.   If one lives in the US then which guidelines are
offered to you are likely to be determined largely by your personal
wealth, insurance, or your state of health or perhaps attitude since
engaging an endocrinologist isn't mandatory and the US prides itself
on freedom of choice.

>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7%
>advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests
>average 5.8%.

Ah, yes ... personal choice kicks in.  I think it wise to be aware
that both guidelines were made by professional bodies.  Their
decisions were made with certain assumptions about their client base.

With the decision to personally choose or accept the lower value
(< 140 mg/dL post prandial) suggested by the AACE comes, extra
responsibilities.  To me that is the bottom line.  

>If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it
>would be a vast improvement.

It sure would be for the millions who have determined that the average
is as high as it is despite the ADA and despite the AACE.  As some
other posters are bound to have already commented, it would be a retro
step for them.  

>Sarah
>T1

Best wishes,
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                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

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Jenny - 01 Dec 2005 12:46 GMT
> They have a different client base.  The AACE caters for a more select
> client base.  Those whose personal wealth either directly or via
> better insurance allows them to avail themselves of a better standard
> of care ie to go to endocrinologists.  

<snip>
> The ADA doesn't have such a luxury.  It has to deal with a situation
> where the average A1c is STILL almost 9% even including those who have
> benefited from the AACE, the ADA and other agencies.  They have to
> deal with poorly controlled T1s.  IMHO out of control T1s are likely
> to have more highs and more hypos.

Quentin,

This is logical, but probably not true in the U.S. where the ADA is based.

Quite a few of the "well heeled" see family doctors rather than endos
because their access is still controlled by insurance company
regulations.  You often can't get a referral to the specialist until
your blood sugar control is very high. At the same time, Those who are
near the ADA sanctioned 7% are told they are doing great so they never
think to see a specialist.

And, in my experience, family doctors can be more in touch with the
latest findings than some endocrinologists who base their practice
largely on what they learned during hospital-based residencies decades ago.

I think the real problem is that the ADA's credibility with donors would
be shaken were they to change their advice in a way that appears to show
 that their previous advice has been hurting people for decades. The
AACE is a newer organization and doesn't carry the baggage.
Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 16:18 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:46:10 -0500, Jenny <lottadata@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> They have a different client base.  The AACE caters for a more select
>> client base.  Those whose personal wealth either directly or via
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>latest findings than some endocrinologists who base their practice
>largely on what they learned during hospital-based residencies decades ago.

G'day G'day Jenny,

OK, I'm an outsider looking in, trying to make sense of how two well
financed organisations, in the same country, with the same access to
scientific information could be reaching different conclusions or at
least making different recommendations.

>I think the real problem is that the ADA's credibility with donors would
>be shaken were they to change their advice in a way that appears to show
>  that their previous advice has been hurting people for decades. The
>AACE is a newer organization and doesn't carry the baggage.

Oh, I'm even willing to accept that the ADA might want to couch its
recommendations with so many escape clauses that they are subject to
all manner of interpretations so they can't be pursued in a class
action etc.

It is the sort of thing that might be true. It might not as well.
The point is that it is pointless to pursue from an individual point
of view.  My model might not represent the reality that is the US as
well as I'd like it to. It does however have one virtue.  It suggests
that if one intends to be a slack a.s and not monitor blood glucose
routinely then perhaps the ADA recommendations are actually safer for
a lot of folks.  If one is willing to be more disciplined them some of
the ADA objections to tighter control disappear.   The AACE
recommendations use fewer weasel words to cover their butts.  They
aren't saying a higher pp blood glucose ie up to 180 is OK because it
reduces the risk of hypos.  IMHO they're a respectable organisation
who are saying "Yes it can be done."  People can keep their pp glucose
under 140 and not live with an unreasonable fear of hypos.  Now how
can that be?  They have access to the same data as the ADA. They have
had much experience in dealing with people and their misguided notions
of control.  Rightly or wrongly they are saying under 140 pp is not
only doable (for most people) but worth doing.  

Put simply I'm endeavouring to come up with a perspective that uses
ALL the information that is available to us. That said I do thank you
for your insight into the workings of the US.  While the rest of the
world watches and often blindly follows I'm left wondering what
recommendations would have evolved in different countries with
different world views, medical systems and different standards of
care. Imagine for a moment a totalitarian state that made all people
have compulsory regular A1c tests. Further imagine that it penalized
folks IMMEDIATELY for having a high A1c.  What pp glucose
recommendations would doctors in such a society make to their
patients?  OK, I've been extreme and provocative. My point is that
recommendations by organisations aren't made with absolute regard for
the patients personal health.  What society or affected subpopulations
of that society will stand is also a factor in their decision making.

Best wishes,

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Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Nicky - 01 Dec 2005 22:46 GMT
> Imagine for a moment a totalitarian state that made all people
> have compulsory regular A1c tests. Further imagine that it penalized
> folks IMMEDIATELY for having a high A1c.  What pp glucose
> recommendations would doctors in such a society make to their
> patients?

Didn't New York make such a proposal fairly recently? What happened to it?

Nicky.

Signature

A1c 10.5/5.6/<6  T2 DX 05/2004
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/73/72Kg

outsor@citynet.net - 30 Nov 2005 20:15 GMT
I'm not going to bother to look it up again and post it here as was done
before, but the ada in a somewhat recent guideline said that where other
complications don't prevent it, an a1c of less then 6 is a good goal.  
What they mean of course is to avoid lows for people whose drugs might
cause them if not well controlled.

I note that the logic used for not trying to go from a 7 to a 6.5 was that
adding more drugs to do so adds more complications then it is worth.  
What is missing of course is to moderate the carb intake on the diet side
of the glucose intake and insulin available equation to reach that and
even lower a1c numbers. That goal can be reached by eating to one's meter
to bring into balance that equation. Then even folk who use drugs and
could be in danger of lows can have lower numbers, I know people with
type1 in the 5 club for long periods using this approach.  As they say,
there is no lower a1c number where complications don't occur.
 
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