Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / December 2005
Defending ADA's A1C Target
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Sarah - 29 Nov 2005 06:33 GMT http://tinyurl.com/bmydm
mrslang - 29 Nov 2005 08:04 GMT > http://tinyurl.com/bmydm the article seems to buy into the myth about what the ADA has regarding what a1c goals, which is not what they advise...
this is from their own site...
"The better your glucose control, the less likely you are to develop complications of diabetes. An A1C in the sevens (7s), however, does not represent good control. The ADA goal is LESS than 7 percent. The closer your A1C is to the normal range (less than 6 percent), the lower
your chances of complications. However, you increase your risk of hypoglycemia, especially if you have type 1 diabetes. Talk with your health care provider about the best goal for you."
the key words "less than 6 percent)
Sally
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 02:45 GMT This post not CC'd by email On 29 Nov 2005 00:04:13 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> wrote:
>> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm > >the article seems to buy into the myth about what the ADA has regarding >what a1c goals, which is not what they advise... ROTFL
G'day G'day Sally,
The article was written by Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, is national vice president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes Association.
My guess he is au fait with ADA policy. If you say he has bought into a myth, that is OK with me. Just know that you are the one saying it and what the implications are of saying it.
>this is from their own site... > >"The better your glucose control, the less likely you are to develop >complications of diabetes. An A1C in the sevens (7s), however, does >not represent good control. The ADA goal is LESS than 7 percent. The >closer your A1C is to the normal range (less than 6 percent), the lower Which only makes it funnier.
>your chances of complications. However, you increase your risk of >hypoglycemia, especially if you have type 1 diabetes. Talk with your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Sally
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 17:03 GMT > This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > a myth, that is OK with me. Just know that you are the one saying it > and what the implications are of saying it. Sallys point was correct. however i think she missed the reason for the article. it was about why the ADA and the AACE targets are different. I think Sally took it as advice on what goals a diabetic should truely look to achieve. and a newbie should not use either site to look for any kind of goals the best way is to talk to their doctors about it and yes do their own research but talk to their doctor before making changes. of course i am talking about non expert newbies not the newbies here that become experts in just a matter of weeks. in another place I doubt Sally would have ever made that post.
 Signature Tom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:39 GMT of course i am talking about non
> expert newbies > not the newbies here that become experts in just a matter of weeks. Like you did? No, you became an expert in about 5 days.
Alan S - 29 Nov 2005 09:08 GMT > http://tinyurl.com/bmydm Interesting article. The basic flaw for type 2's appears here:
"However, we must consider the cost-benefit relationship. Placing the patient on another oral medication or starting the patient on insulin needs to be weighed against the potential benefit of further A1C reduction. If the question is, "What should be done to decrease my patient's A1C from 6.9% (meeting the ADA target) to 6.5% (meeting the AACE target)?" it must be realized that within that range of A1C reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on current data."
Read that again, and see if you can find any mention of diet, lifestyle or exercise. The basic assumption is that the ONLY way to decrease the patient's A1c is "another oral medication or starting the patient on insulin".
And, unfortunately they are correct if the philosophy followed is based on this:
"The message today: Eat more whole grains! Whole grains and starches are good for you because they have very little fat, saturated fat, or cholesterol. They are packed with vitamins, minerals, and fiber. Yes, foods with carbohydrate -- starches, vegetables, fruits, and dairy products -- will raise your blood glucose more quickly than meats and fats, but they are the healthiest foods for you. Your doctor may need to adjust your medications when you eat more carbohydrates. You may need to increase your activity level or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day." http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
If you follow that advice, then your doctor has no choice but to "adjust your medications when you eat more carbohydrates" if you are over the recommended ADA A1c of 7%.
Somehow, the possibility that those starches may be why you are over 7% in the first place just doesn't seem to be getting through.
Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, who wrote:
"(meeting the ADA target) to 6.5% (meeting the AACE target)?" it must be realized that within that range of A1C reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on current data"
needs to read, among others, some quite old data from the EPIC-Norfolk study of Jan 2001: http://tinyurl.com/auxr2 http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/322/7277/15?maxtoshow=&HITS=&hit s=&RESULTFORMAT=1&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=EPIC-Norfo lk+HbA1c&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1133254541690_817&stored_search=&FIRSTI NDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1
"An increase of 1% in HbA1c was associated with a 28% (P<0.002) increase in risk of death independent of age, blood pressure, serum cholesterol, body mass index, and cigarette smoking habit; this effect remained (relative risk 1.46, P=0.05 adjusted for age and risk factors) after men with known diabetes, a HbA1c concentration >= 7%, or history of myocardial infarction or stroke were excluded."
If you read that study fully, it will become clear that they are talking about the risk below 7%. Of course, things get worse above it.
I find it interesting that the ADA has become defensive enough to see a need to publish this statement.
Shades of Portia.
Methinks she doth protest too much
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Jenny - 29 Nov 2005 15:06 GMT >>http://tinyurl.com/bmydm > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > reduction the potential benefit is small indeed, based on > current data." Unless you are fond of your beta cells, kidneys, eyes, and toes.
Here's a study published by the ADA that correlates an a1c of 7% with an average blood sugar of 170 mg/dl. (And then tells doctors not to have patients test!) http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169
An average of 170 mg/dl probably includes many hours when the blood sugar is over 200 mg/dl--a level at which the immune system is compromised, insulin resistance heightened, and very bad things happen to the microvasculature.
If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target. If it is to save your health, I'll go with what my doctors said: "Lower is better!" It is irresponsible to
--Jenny
http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Type 2 Diabetes info http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Low Carb info
Wes Groleau - 29 Nov 2005 23:56 GMT > If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which > appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target. How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ?
 Signature Wes Groleau "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change; the courage to change the one I can; and the wisdom to know it's me." -- unknown
Ma¢k - 30 Nov 2005 00:10 GMT On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:56:26 GMT, Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> Huffed and Puffed the following into the madness of usenet:
>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which >> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target. > >How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ? because in america, by the time most of these occur you lose your job, and then lose your insurance and then have to damn near reach the poverty level or below before the government steps in and starts helping to cover the cost.
 Signature Mâck©® Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
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Jenny - 30 Nov 2005 01:01 GMT >> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which >> appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target. > > How do amputations, dialysis, and Braille training save money ? Maybe it is because by the time you have all the complications you've lost your job and hence your health insurance so it is costing someone ELSE money. <wry grin>
Whatever the explanation, all the ADA articles arguing against testing or earlier diagnosis make th point that these behaviors would not be cost effective.
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:06 GMT >> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money I wonder just how many diabetes get there medical needs paid for by the government and not insurance companies. From everything I have read i would think the number is pretty high.
 Signature Tom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:35 GMT >>> If the goal is to save your health insurance company money > > I wonder just how many diabetes get there medical needs paid for by > the government > and not insurance companies. > From everything I have read i would think the number is pretty high. Then you read wrong.
mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 00:25 GMT > If the goal is to save your health insurance company money (which > appears to be a major consideration of the ADA), 7% is a worthy target. but as I proved the ADA advises less than 6% if possible. but that doesn't fit in with your bitter cynical and pathetic hating about the ADA so you spin things however you want to that will fit your unhealthy low carb agenda. sad really.
Sally
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 03:05 GMT This post not CC'd by email On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> wrote:
>but that >doesn't fit in with your bitter cynical and pathetic hating about the >ADA so you spin things however you want to that will fit your unhealthy >low carb agenda. sad really. > >Sally G'day G'day Sally,
I see you have taken to arguing with the judgment of Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, is national vice president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes Association. The bloke shouldn't publish unless he knows what he is talking about. <yeah, right>
Lighten up. See the funny side of all this.
Nathaniel made some good points in his article eg that most diabetics in America are way out of control by anybody's standard except perhaps their own. If you'd like to discuss some of them I'm willing.
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 04:38 GMT > This post not CC'd by email > On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Lighten up. See the funny side of all this. well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the article, but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted. so many in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand on it is.
I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the continual ADA bashing in here. and mostly by the low carb zealots who hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs. so forgive me if I don't laugh about that.
what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements. or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning.
Sally
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 08:32 GMT > I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the > continual ADA bashing in here. and mostly by the low carb zealots who > hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs. so > forgive me if I don't laugh about that. I'd be interested in knowing who the low carb zealots are in here. Last one I can remember was Bob the Boob whose ISP obviously didn't like him giving no carb advice to Madison. Apart from Chung rubbish, Murray and Chuck and Budd arguing, I read every post in it's entirety and I am wondering where you get the low carb zealot/mentality thing from. I could understand if you were in the low carb group, where people are losing weight and like purple pee pee sticks but in here? You really need to spend more time in that group to understand what real low carbing is.
I see many in here who share their carb "lowering" experiences, is that what you are commenting on? There are few "zealots" in here at present, religious, anti aspartame etc but one zealot stands out very clearly, a pro ADA/anti anyone-who-uses-carb "lowering" zealot. I am sure you never take a good hard look at yourself Sally. Whilst the rest of us share our differing carb level diets, you just positively foam at the mouth and little else.
Quentin Grady - 30 Nov 2005 09:09 GMT This post not CC'd by email On 29 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> wrote:
>well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the >article, G'day G'day Sally,
This time the joke is on you, not that it matters much. My point is that just as there are people who habitually appear to attack the ADA there are those who as habitually appear to defend it.
You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour. IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually attack and some habitually defend the ADA. Surely there is some better position eg looking at the upside and downside of their recommendations somewhat dispassionately.
> but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more >confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted. so many >in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising >someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand >on it is. Sally, I believe Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, national vice president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes Association is stating the ADA's real stand on this. Think about it. It is likely that most of the time the website pages are being written by the public relations department with vetting by some committee or other. Not this time. This time they have felt under pressure and that pressure has brought out the big guns to make an OFFICIAL statement. Notice it is not some anonymous committee. No, this one has someone's status and no doubt future prospects on the line.
>I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the >continual ADA bashing in here. Fair enough though bear this in mind. Locally most people blame local or national government when things they don't like happen. Politicians learn to take it. I suspect the situation in similar in the US.
> and mostly by the low carb zealots who >hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs. so >forgive me if I don't laugh about that. Laughing is optional. There was a time when you did a lot of LOL. It got to the point where you could have taken up a new career as a street LOLLY vendor. Today you call them zealots and describe their beliefs as austere. None of this helps dialogue.
>what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't >find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements. >or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning. Malicious and unfounded, eh?
She has taken a position as have you. What I don't see in your malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally is any discussion let alone refutation of the following.
>> Here's a study published by the ADA that correlates an a1c of 7% >> with an average blood sugar of 170 mg/dl. (And then tells doctors >> not to have patients test!) >> http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169
>Sally Hey, I threw in malicious, unfounded and maligning only because they seemed to be words you like. Anything to oblige. <grin>
Put simply I'd prefer people who want to discuss the ADA to discuss what the ADA representatives actually say rather engaging in MUM, malicious, unfounded maligning.
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
mrslang - 30 Nov 2005 18:37 GMT > This post not CC'd by email > On 29 Nov 2005 20:38:25 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour. > IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually attack most in here
> and some habitually defend the ADA. a few in here.
>Surely there is some better > position eg looking at the upside and downside of their > recommendations somewhat dispassionately. never said the ADA is perfect but certainly not deserving of the bashing they receive in here. and it's mostly from people who adhere to a low carb diet because the ADA does not recommend it.
> > but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more > >confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted. so many [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Notice it is not some anonymous committee. No, this one has someone's > status and no doubt future prospects on the line. well since the bashing in here is always about what the website says then I think that holds a lot more importance than what one of their people said in an article.
> >I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the > >continual ADA bashing in here. > > Fair enough though bear this in mind. Locally most people blame local > or national government when things they don't like happen. Politicians > learn to take it. I suspect the situation in similar in the US.
> > and mostly by the low carb zealots who > >hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs. so [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > street LOLLY vendor. Today you call them zealots and describe their > beliefs as austere. None of this helps dialogue. like I said, I still LOL and will continue to push my LOL-Y cart. but I'm not on drugs so I'm nt going to laugh like a hyena through everything. especially jenny's unfounded and bitter attacks.
> >what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you don't > >find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded statements. > >or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning. > > Malicious and unfounded, eh? yes. thanks for repeating those words. don't get to see them enough because no one seems to care what she says about the ADA.
> She has taken a position as have you. hers is not a position, it is an assault.
>What I don't see in your > malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally I never do that to Sally, lol
>is any discussion let alone > refutation of the following. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> not to have patients test!) > >> http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/4/169 from the abstract:
"This article suggests that targeting fasting plasma glucose is more beneficial when hemoglobin A1c (A1C) results are very high, whereas targeting postprandial glucose is more effective when A1C results are lower.
addresses a1c's...suggests...
and yet you conclude that "the ADA tells doctors not to have patients test!" you make it sound like they say never test your blood sugar. sorry, we see different things in this article. added to that....the real issue here is what does their website advise...and as I've quoted and others have that everyone is different and will have different needs.
what does there website say?
> Hey, I threw in malicious, unfounded and maligning only because they > seemed to be words you like. Anything to oblige. <grin> yeah, thanks for obliging. lol
> Put simply I'd prefer people who want to discuss the ADA to discuss > what the ADA representatives actually say rather engaging in MUM, > malicious, unfounded maligning. I'd rather have them discuss the website and not something taken out of context from one or two articles. MUM is the word for what happens when the letters ADA come up in here.
Sally
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:50 GMT >> You have used the phrase "sad really" to describe such behaviour. >> IMHO it cuts both ways. It is "sad really" that some habitually >> attack > > most in here We don't attack, we point out flaws.
>> and some habitually defend the ADA. > > a few in here. Like behaviour is still like behaviour no matter how many people involved.
>>Surely there is some better >> position eg looking at the upside and downside of their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bashing they receive in here. and it's mostly from people who adhere > to a low carb diet because the ADA does not recommend it. If something that is right in your face regarding treatment and has so many faults of course it is going to criticised. And it is not criticised by just low carbers. There are very few people in here who you could truly call low carbers and a lot of them don't even participate in threads like this. Please state who this large lot of zealots are - of course you won't though.
> well since the bashing in here is always about what the website says > then I think that holds a lot more importance than what one of their > people said in an article. Nice way of trying to wiggle out of a stuff up. Well done.
>> Laughing is optional. There was a time when you did a lot of LOL. >> It got to the point where you could have taken up a new career as a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm not on drugs so I'm nt going to laugh like a hyena through > everything. especially jenny's unfounded and bitter attacks. Well you did behave like a hyena for a very long time.
>> >what also surprises me....and maybe it shouldn't.....is that you >> >don't find anything wrong with jenny's malicious and unfounded
>> >statements. or maybe you just saw the funny side of her maligning.
>> Malicious and unfounded, eh? > > yes. thanks for repeating those words. don't get to see them enough > because no one seems to care what she says about the ADA. If a person is justified then why criticise the critic? Your defence of the ADA is somewhat lacking in proof. You never back up your comments. But we have all come to expect that.
>> She has taken a position as have you. > > hers is not a position, it is an assault. As is yours, pot kettle, no difference, once again you need to take a good look at yourself. You assaulted Quentin, big time, in your first post here. Name calling as well. Strangely you were the only one that saw fault with his comments. Which is even more strange in a group that will usually have 40 or so attack your jugular if there is even a whiff of anti-Americanism - no matter who you are. You are such a hypocrite Sally, big time hypocrite.
> >What I don't see in your >> malicious and unfounded maligning of Sally > > I never do that to Sally, lol Maybe you should.
> I'd rather have them discuss the website and not something taken out > of context from one or two articles. MUM is the word for what happens
> when the letters ADA come up in here. With all the hoohah you create, believe me, people do go check to see if something is out of context. After all, one shouldn't come to a debate half armed.
VBHol - 01 Dec 2005 01:18 GMT After all, one
> shouldn't come to a debate half armed. Or to a battle of wits ;)
VBH
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:26 GMT >> This post not CC'd by email >> On 29 Nov 2005 16:25:12 -0800, "mrslang" <mslangerhans@aol.com> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > well, I guess the jokes on me because I didn't notice who wrote the > article, i dont think the Joke is on you and it is not important to who wrote the article. what is important is what was written. I dont recall reading in the article that patients should work with their doctors to set A1C goals. and that i believe was your point. they do talk as doctors what should be done to lower patients A1C's but dont get into that patients should work with their doctor. i think it was a good article and i believe your reaction has come about in the same way that Ceebees 1st reply to trinity ( the carbs thing ) came about. i doubt either of you would have made those posts if this group didnt have "I HATE THE ADA" agenda.
the first goal of below 7% should not be the final goal for myself but it was my first goal. my dx A1C was 13%
but given that it makes the statments about A1c even more
> confusing since the ADA site mentions the very thing I quoted. so many > in here always use that "ADA says 7% is okay" that it's surprising > someone from the ADA would not state clearly what the ADA's real stand > on it is. they make it very clear that it is a YMMV thing and that is why doctors are needed to help most newbies. 7% is not a bad first goal for newbies or any diabetic that is getting A1C's that are much higher. no where does it say that 7% should be the final goal.
> I have no problem with seeing the funny side of me, but not the > continual ADA bashing in here. many of us do not show our true personality here because of the way things are here.
and mostly by the low carb zealots who
> hate the fact that the ADA doesn't back their austere beliefs. so > forgive me if I don't laugh about that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sally it doesn't surprise me. they look at the ADA as their enemy and I believe it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" its an attack the giant and share the rewards thing. its fine to disagree with the ADA but to put it like the ADA is the enemy and so much double talk really makes me wonder what their motivation is.
 Signature Tom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:37 GMT > same way that Ceebees 1st reply to trinity ( the carbs thing ) came > about. i doubt either of you would have made those posts if this
> group didnt have "I HATE THE ADA" agenda. Hate is such a strong word and you are wrong, as usual. Finding flaws in something and hating something are two different things. Go buy a clue.
> it doesn't surprise me. they look at the ADA as their enemy > and I believe it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" More lies.
> its an attack the giant and share the rewards thing. > its fine to disagree with the ADA but to put it like > the ADA is the enemy and so much double talk really makes me wonder > what their motivation is. You don't even know what double talk is, you just proved that.
VBHol - 01 Dec 2005 01:30 GMT > i doubt either of you would have made those posts if this group didnt have > "I HATE THE ADA" agenda. Can we have this resolved once and for all please?
You are a part of "this group" as much as anyone else. But I doubt that you mean the above in the literal sense....unless of course you want to tell us why you hate the ADA.
Yes I am taking the piss.
But there is a serious point here.
You are claiming that persons whom you refuse to identify HATE EVERYTHING about the ADA.
You are labelling EVERYONE EXCEPT yourself and Sally (presumably, from what you have written) as those persons.
Note the emphasis.
You are making blanket statements here which clearly do not hold water and are clearly guilty of exactly what you are accusing others of - a blanket discrimination.
Care to be more specific?
Or do you really believe that everyone here bar two hates everything about the ADA?
VBH
morrisolder@earthlink.net - 30 Nov 2005 05:20 GMT "If the goal is to ... save your health, I'll go with what my doctors said: "Lower is better!"
Which, despite one sentence summary (A1c goal = 7)that we are so familiar with, is exactly what the article says:
"ADA not only states that its goal is <7%, but also notes that it is critical to include the following "key concepts in setting glycemic goals":
* The goals should be individualized. * Certain populations such as the elderly, young children, and pregnant women require special considerations. * Less intensive goals may be appropriate in those with a history of significant hypoglycemia or hypoglycemia unawareness. * More stringent goals (i.e., a normal A1C of <6%) may further reduce the risk of microvascular complications at the cost of increased risk of hypoglycemia.
ADA suggests that one should strive for the lowest A1C appropriate for the patient based on these concepts."
Donna Evleth - 29 Nov 2005 20:37 GMT > From: Alan S <loralweightandcarbs@optusnet.com.au> > Organization: self [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the ONLY way to decrease the patient's A1c is "another oral > medication or starting the patient on insulin". This sounds like the GP who gave me my metformin disaster.
> And, unfortunately they are correct if the philosophy > followed is based on this: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > or try spacing carbohydrates throughout the day." > http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp Ah yes, whole grains. I am coeliac, and whole grains will not poison me next year or the year after, they will poison me within the next twelve hours.
Why is so much diabetic advice based on the principle of "one size fits all" when in fact this is one of the most individual diseases? Everyone's body reacts differently.
> If you follow that advice, then your doctor has no choice > but to "adjust your medications when you eat more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are over 7% in the first place just doesn't seem to be > getting through. One size fits all again.
I will add also that my ox is not gored here, as my last A1c was 5.5%.
Donna Evleth
Sarah - 30 Nov 2005 00:28 GMT >> http://tinyurl.com/bmydm >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Everyone missed the whole point of the article. Re-read the statement: "Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S., diabetes experts often estimate that it is 8.5-9%. This suggests that we should spend less time discussing what the goal should be and more time discussing how to improve glycemic control, and thereby get more of our patients to either goal. This point is particularly true when one realizes that, based on available data, we would accomplish far more by targeting those with high A1Cs and decreasing their A1Cs significantly than by arguing about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are doing well by either standard."
Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7% advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests average 5.8%.
If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it would be a vast improvement.
Sarah T1
Alan S - 30 Nov 2005 07:10 GMT <snip>
>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7% >advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests >average 5.8%. Excellent.
>If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it >would be a vast improvement. True - except for those like us under 7%.
>Sarah >T1 Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 08:15 GMT > <snip> >>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7% [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > True - except for those like us under 7%. And a mean goal wouldn't help me personally. Whilst it would be nice to see everyone else attaining non diabetic numbers (or even "good" diabetic numbers) I am more concerned with what I personally attain.
Thomas Muffaletto - 30 Nov 2005 16:12 GMT > Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7% > advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my > tests average 5.8%. I work mostly with my doctor and dietitian the ADA web site is one of many places i get my information from. while the ADA suggests that an A1C below 7% is good - it was my first goal. now i will not be happy unless i remain in the 5% club. the ADA web site is for information only. if you follwer their advice you will work with your doctor and make changes to your lifestyle - not follow the numbers on their page.
 Signature Tom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html
> > If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it > would be a vast improvement. > > Sarah > T1 Ozgirl - 30 Nov 2005 20:35 GMT >> Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the >> 7% advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6%
>> and my tests average 5.8%. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > while the ADA suggests that an A1C below 7% is good - it was my first > goal. now i will not be happy unless i remain in the 5% club.
You don't have a clue what any of your numbers are.
Wes Groleau - 01 Dec 2005 01:59 GMT > Everyone missed the whole point of the article. Re-read the statement: > "Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S., [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are > doing well by either standard." The whole article, as well as the above point, was excellent by itself. The problem is that (1) ADA's dietary advice is inconsistent, but (2) their good advice doesn't seem to get noticed much in the outside world, and what does get noticed is advice that is proven to prevent most diabetics from ever getting down to a reasonable A1c.
I vigorously oppose high-carb advice. That does not make me a low carb zealot. If you cannot understand that, how about: "I vigorously oppose drunk driving. That does not make me a prohibitionist."
 Signature Wes Groleau
You always have time for what you do first.
Sarah - 01 Dec 2005 03:24 GMT > The whole article, as well as the above point, > was excellent by itself. The problem is that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that, how about: "I vigorously oppose drunk driving. > That does not make me a prohibitionist." I don't want to participate is an argument about good or bad advice given by the ADA. A lot of what is considered bad advice is taken from articles that were not meant for the general public. Articles taken from their Journals are targeted for specific groups, not patients. What is considered as inconsistency by the ADA is usually different advice given to different target groups.
Maybe I am to blame for some of the misunderstanding, I have posted links to articles that were not intended for diabetic patients. I will try not to do that in the future.
Sarah T1
Alan S - 01 Dec 2005 07:31 GMT >> The whole article, as well as the above point, >> was excellent by itself. The problem is that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Sarah >T1 Sorry, Sarah, but on that one I vehemently disagree.
Censorship is NOT the solution. Whether the comments or advice are "targeted" for patients or practitioners or lobbyists or researchers is irrelevant to the coherence and uniformity of those comments or quality of that advice.
If it isn't meant to be read by us ignorant plebs who happen to have the afflictions being discussed, then they shouldn't publish it in sources we can access on the web. Far too many bureaucracies see outsiders as mushrooms - to be kept in the dark and fed manure. The internet has set us free.
If I had treated my diabetes with only that information fed to me by my medical staff - I would still have an A1c over 7% and breakfast post-prandials over 15(270). Definitely a mushroom.
They should, IMO, definitely split their advice into at least two targets - type 1 and type 2. It's a pity they don't do that instead of the targeting you imply is occurring.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Nicky - 01 Dec 2005 13:35 GMT > Maybe I am to blame for some of the misunderstanding, I have posted links > to articles that were not intended for diabetic patients. I will try not > to do that in the future. Please continue to do so. I don't want to waste my time reading stuff that has been cleared for a lowest common denominator!
Nicky.
 Signature A1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg
Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 07:30 GMT This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:28:27 -0800, "Sarah" <sarahpa1980nospam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Everyone missed the whole point of the article. G'day G'day Sarah,
If you yourself had missed the point you wouldn't now be commenting as you have done. That means "everyone" has been reduced to "everyone minus one"
I noticed it.
So that makes "everyone", "everyone minus two".
"Everyone" is shrinking. A new relativity is born. <grin>
> Re-read the statement: >"Although there are not good data to tell us the mean A1C in the U.S., [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >patients to either goal. This point is particularly true when one realizes >that, based on available data, we would accomplish far more by targeting ^^^^
>those with high A1Cs and decreasing their A1Cs significantly than by arguing >about how to further improve the A1Cs of those who, most would agree, are >doing well by either standard." The most interesting word in that paragraph may well be the "we". It basically implies that in the opinion of a vice president of the ADA the more important goal for them is getting to the great unwashed masses who push the mean A1c in the U.S. up to around 8.5 or 9% Put simply they are not so interested in gains to be achieved from having tighter post prandial control as AACE. I'm slightly curious as to why not.
The AACE advocates < 140 mg/dL and the ADA advocates < 180 mg/dL
Who better to state the ADA position than Nathaniel G. Clark, MD, MS, RD, national vice president, clinical affairs for the American Diabetes Association? I'll accept the post prandial guidelines stated by him as fact.
How is that two well heeled organisations in the same country, governed by the same statutes, reading the same literature, having the same resources to research the same data etc have reached different conclusions?
IMHO it isn't complicated.
They have a different client base. The AACE caters for a more select client base. Those whose personal wealth either directly or via better insurance allows them to avail themselves of a better standard of care ie to go to endocrinologists. Presumably endocrinologists can give more personalised advice on matters of choice of insulin etc. The AACE aren't for some reason expressing the same level of concern as the ADA over hypos. This seems strange until one realises that with better standards of care, more personalised advice etc is reasonable to assume that such unfortunate events are likely to be a lesser risk.
The ADA doesn't have such a luxury. It has to deal with a situation where the average A1c is STILL almost 9% even including those who have benefited from the AACE, the ADA and other agencies. They have to deal with poorly controlled T1s. IMHO out of control T1s are likely to have more highs and more hypos. (It is hard to choose the right words here because phases such as poorly controlled and tightly controlled have come to have specific meaning in terms of A1c)
For the me the simplest solution is to assume both guidelines are correct ... correct that is for the assumptions made by the respective organisations. If one lives in the US then which guidelines are offered to you are likely to be determined largely by your personal wealth, insurance, or your state of health or perhaps attitude since engaging an endocrinologist isn't mandatory and the US prides itself on freedom of choice.
>Most regulars of this newsgroup set their goals much lower that the 7% >advocated by the ADA. I personally, as a T1, set my goals at 6% and my tests >average 5.8%. Ah, yes ... personal choice kicks in. I think it wise to be aware that both guidelines were made by professional bodies. Their decisions were made with certain assumptions about their client base.
With the decision to personally choose or accept the lower value (< 140 mg/dL post prandial) suggested by the AACE comes, extra responsibilities. To me that is the bottom line.
>If the mean in the U.S. was improved from 8.5-9% to the ADA goal of 7%, it >would be a vast improvement. It sure would be for the millions who have determined that the average is as high as it is despite the ADA and despite the AACE. As some other posters are bound to have already commented, it would be a retro step for them.
>Sarah >T1 Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Jenny - 01 Dec 2005 12:46 GMT > They have a different client base. The AACE caters for a more select > client base. Those whose personal wealth either directly or via > better insurance allows them to avail themselves of a better standard > of care ie to go to endocrinologists. <snip>
> The ADA doesn't have such a luxury. It has to deal with a situation > where the average A1c is STILL almost 9% even including those who have > benefited from the AACE, the ADA and other agencies. They have to > deal with poorly controlled T1s. IMHO out of control T1s are likely > to have more highs and more hypos. Quentin,
This is logical, but probably not true in the U.S. where the ADA is based.
Quite a few of the "well heeled" see family doctors rather than endos because their access is still controlled by insurance company regulations. You often can't get a referral to the specialist until your blood sugar control is very high. At the same time, Those who are near the ADA sanctioned 7% are told they are doing great so they never think to see a specialist.
And, in my experience, family doctors can be more in touch with the latest findings than some endocrinologists who base their practice largely on what they learned during hospital-based residencies decades ago.
I think the real problem is that the ADA's credibility with donors would be shaken were they to change their advice in a way that appears to show that their previous advice has been hurting people for decades. The AACE is a newer organization and doesn't carry the baggage.
Quentin Grady - 01 Dec 2005 16:18 GMT This post not CC'd by email On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:46:10 -0500, Jenny <lottadata@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> They have a different client base. The AACE caters for a more select >> client base. Those whose personal wealth either directly or via [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >latest findings than some endocrinologists who base their practice >largely on what they learned during hospital-based residencies decades ago. G'day G'day Jenny,
OK, I'm an outsider looking in, trying to make sense of how two well financed organisations, in the same country, with the same access to scientific information could be reaching different conclusions or at least making different recommendations.
>I think the real problem is that the ADA's credibility with donors would >be shaken were they to change their advice in a way that appears to show > that their previous advice has been hurting people for decades. The >AACE is a newer organization and doesn't carry the baggage. Oh, I'm even willing to accept that the ADA might want to couch its recommendations with so many escape clauses that they are subject to all manner of interpretations so they can't be pursued in a class action etc.
It is the sort of thing that might be true. It might not as well. The point is that it is pointless to pursue from an individual point of view. My model might not represent the reality that is the US as well as I'd like it to. It does however have one virtue. It suggests that if one intends to be a slack a.s and not monitor blood glucose routinely then perhaps the ADA recommendations are actually safer for a lot of folks. If one is willing to be more disciplined them some of the ADA objections to tighter control disappear. The AACE recommendations use fewer weasel words to cover their butts. They aren't saying a higher pp blood glucose ie up to 180 is OK because it reduces the risk of hypos. IMHO they're a respectable organisation who are saying "Yes it can be done." People can keep their pp glucose under 140 and not live with an unreasonable fear of hypos. Now how can that be? They have access to the same data as the ADA. They have had much experience in dealing with people and their misguided notions of control. Rightly or wrongly they are saying under 140 pp is not only doable (for most people) but worth doing.
Put simply I'm endeavouring to come up with a perspective that uses ALL the information that is available to us. That said I do thank you for your insight into the workings of the US. While the rest of the world watches and often blindly follows I'm left wondering what recommendations would have evolved in different countries with different world views, medical systems and different standards of care. Imagine for a moment a totalitarian state that made all people have compulsory regular A1c tests. Further imagine that it penalized folks IMMEDIATELY for having a high A1c. What pp glucose recommendations would doctors in such a society make to their patients? OK, I've been extreme and provocative. My point is that recommendations by organisations aren't made with absolute regard for the patients personal health. What society or affected subpopulations of that society will stand is also a factor in their decision making.
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Nicky - 01 Dec 2005 22:46 GMT > Imagine for a moment a totalitarian state that made all people > have compulsory regular A1c tests. Further imagine that it penalized > folks IMMEDIATELY for having a high A1c. What pp glucose > recommendations would doctors in such a society make to their > patients? Didn't New York make such a proposal fairly recently? What happened to it?
Nicky.
 Signature A1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/73/72Kg
outsor@citynet.net - 30 Nov 2005 20:15 GMT I'm not going to bother to look it up again and post it here as was done before, but the ada in a somewhat recent guideline said that where other complications don't prevent it, an a1c of less then 6 is a good goal. What they mean of course is to avoid lows for people whose drugs might cause them if not well controlled.
I note that the logic used for not trying to go from a 7 to a 6.5 was that adding more drugs to do so adds more complications then it is worth. What is missing of course is to moderate the carb intake on the diet side of the glucose intake and insulin available equation to reach that and even lower a1c numbers. That goal can be reached by eating to one's meter to bring into balance that equation. Then even folk who use drugs and could be in danger of lows can have lower numbers, I know people with type1 in the 5 club for long periods using this approach. As they say, there is no lower a1c number where complications don't occur.
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