 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / November 2005BG and keytones
Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones?  Signature. yes........ that means you are loosing a lot of weight when that happens kate SignatureJoin us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ http://www.diabetic-talk.org/freeveggies.htm I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher. > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? > yes........ that means you are loosing[sic] a lot of > weight when that happens > > kate no it doesn't. it means you might. dave > yes........ that means you are losing a lot of > weight when that happens > > kate > > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and > still have high keytones? > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? yes. and it's KETONES. Dave What are signs of high ketones? Signature. > > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? > > > yes. and it's KETONES. > > Dave > What are signs of high ketones? before we continue, I want you to know that having ketones is NOT the same thing as ketoacidosis (DKA). fruity breath is ONE observable symptom of having ketones (ok, I listed ONE sign already) more to follow Dave I thought they were one in the same Signature. > > What are signs of high ketones? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dave > I thought they were one in the same > > > What are signs of high ketones? > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > Dave Nope. Diabetic ketoacidosis is very dangerous, but ketones in and of themselves can be benign and even desireable. If one is eating low-carb, they indicate that one is burning fat for fuel. Many low-carbers try to stay in ketosis (the state of burning fat for fuel rather than carbs). Priscilla >I thought they were one in the same You're not the first one to assume that. However, they're not. Ketoacidosis is a condition reached when there isn't enough insulin in your system. If you're T2, it's not going to happen and if you're a T1 shoving in sh.t loads of insulin but eating like a pig, it's STILL not going to happen. SignatureBeav Reply to "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com" (with the obvious changes) Simple wrote in message ... >What are signs of high ketones? One of the more reliable tests is a ketone-in-urine strip. The low-carb diets have made the strips more popular since some of the weight loss gurus recommend starting weight loss diets by reducing your carb intake until ketones show up in your urine. Most pharmacies carry the strips. Regards Old Al "oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 @individual.net: > Simple wrote in message ... >>What are signs of high ketones? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards > Old Al Isn't that the truth. Maybe if some 'expert' published in some woman's magazine that frequent sex and daisy dukes shorts were essential to losing weight the world would be a better place - at least for the men. Come to think of it maybe it's time for a detailed study? > "oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 > @individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > be a better place - at least for the men. Come to think of it maybe it's > time for a detailed study? You sound like my hubby! :) Your experience sounds a lot like mine, only I was about 10 yrs. younger. And my diagnosis was T1. Have your docs mentioned that it's possible you're T1 instead of T2? Just the fact that they've put you on insulin (no oral meds, right?) makes me wonder. Mary >> "oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >> @individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Mary Hi Mary, He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight physicals every year until I was 45 and retired in 1995. I can't imagine they missed I was diabetic all those years. Isn't Type 1 for younger folks? And aren't low Bg's more of a problem for T1's? I can stop eating and still have high BG readings. Even at only 800 to 1000 cal a day I'm running an average of 160's. I'm not talking from knowledge just wondering. I do remember feeling more tired than normal about a year after I retired but just chalked it up to getting older and doing less exercise. I didn't feel the need to see a doctor until last month. He said my BGs were to high to treat with pills and diet - so he gave me the Novolog pens, gave me a lesson on taking a reading with a meter, gave me a weeks supply of strips and an appointment 45 days later - two weeks off. Yep, I'm thinking if he doesnt open up with some information soon I'm out of here and looking for a new doctor. From what I have read at the different Diabetes sites my BG's when they were 400 and up were to high for just pills but I have wondered why I don't have both the pills and the shots because these shots peak out shortly after you take one and drop off rapidly so getting control of my BG seems to be harder than it should be. I think he should have given me both so that I could use the pen after meals and let the pills hold it down between meals. But then I'm no doctor. >>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > I think he should have given me both so that I could use the pen after > meals and let the pills hold it down between meals. But then I'm no doctor. Hi Chief! I don't know what happened--I responded quite awhile ago, but it hasn't shown up yet. I must have sent it into outer space somehow-- Anyway, T1 can occur in children and adults of any age, contrary to what was believed to be true in the past. I was struck by your comment that your wife and kids could smell the acetone breath on you--the same happened to me when I was diagnosed as T1 about 10 yrs. ago (my co-workers could even smell it through my surgical mask). Just don't hear that too often when people recount their experiences at diagnosis. I'm thinking that you may find out later that your diagnosis is really T1, especially with the presence of high blood sugars, ketones, extreme thirst, 30lbs weight loss (that's what I had too) and your MD starting you on insulin immediately. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were you I would get the opinion of a non-military endocrinologist (preferably diabetologist), just to be sure that you're receiving the correct treatment. If you stay on insulin, you will certainly need a basal insulin, such as long acting Lantus. That would even out your bgs between the meal boluses that you're taking. Mary >>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > Mary The doctor I'm using is a civilain endo doc who was referred by a doctor I saw first when I thought the problem was my stomach. I will certainly have a ton of questions when I get to the second visit. I didn't realize there were Diabetologists - Are they endos with a couple of extra courses? This may be a strange question - Is there a benefit to having one or the other type of Diabetes? I'm thinking the samething - I need something for the 'tweens' Maybe this month is for me to get it down to a managable point and then he'll figure out what the best course will be. Thanks for taking the time Mary >>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > Hi, this is Mary's husband, Dave. Personally, from all the emphasis on eating "just the right thing" and "low carbing" to "no carbing", I'm glad I'm a T1 on a pump. I can control my lifestyle to be more "normal" than many of those who describe what they go through as T2's. Some of the meds they take cause side effects and complications. T2's, as a group tend to suffer more problems because of their numbers and their belated diagnoses. OTOH, a T1's bg can go into the stratosphere during illness or mistakes in therapy. dave "David" <David@invalid.com> wrote in message news:37ednZ0Oretj_fTeRVn- > Hi, this is Mary's husband, Dave. Personally, from all the emphasis on > eating "just the right thing" and "low carbing" to "no carbing", I'm > glad I'm a T1 on a pump. I can control my lifestyle to be more "normal" > than many of those who describe what they go through as T2's. Some of > the meds they take cause side effects and complications. As can the huge amounts of insulin a type 2 needs to take whilst highly insulin resistant. If the beta cell damage isn't too great a type 2 could reduce their insulin resistance greatly with weight loss, muscle building and insulin resistance drugs. With improved insulin resistance the ability to eat more carbs returns. > "David" <David@invalid.com> wrote in message > news:37ednZ0Oretj_fTeRVn- [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > With improved insulin resistance the ability to eat more > carbs returns. I'm getting my own taste of "huge amounts of insulin"; I'm on Medrol. Tomorrow's the last day of it, thank God. I run through a whole reservoir (150U) of insulin in one day while on Medrol (it usually lasts more than 3 days) Dave "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in news:wHdaf.7410$Hj2.3537 @news-server.bigpond.net.au: > "David" <David@invalid.com> wrote in message > news:37ednZ0Oretj_fTeRVn- [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > With improved insulin resistance the ability to eat more > carbs returns. What if your already fairly fit? What are the beta cells? Are there any foods that help insulin resistance? This insulin resistance sound like me to a T. I thought last night I could do with less and boy was I wrong. It seems that anything lower than about 16 units on the Novolog pen has no effect at all. I dropped it to 10 last night and woke up to a dry mouth, dry tongue, headache, and fatigue. My BG was 210 but it was on its way down. Also, It seems that the quickness of the effect of the shots is much later than the paperwork about the insulin says it is. It's supposed to kick in within an hour. and I'm suposed to eat something 5 to 30 minutes after I take a shot. But what is happening is that the shot doesn't kick in until 3 hours. SO I take a shot, eat 30 min later hit a high BG an hour later and then see a big drop 1 to 2 hours later. >>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > Sure, Chief. I guess I misunderstood about your endo. A dibetologist is an endo who specializes in diabetes. Wow, your "strange question" is difficult to answer. Any type of diabetic can end up with the same complications as another, but the difference is how close they keep their bgs to normal range...closer to normal, supposedly less chance of complications. Is it a benefit to be T1 on insulin or T2 on diet & exercise, or oral meds, or insulin or all the above? I guess it depends on the individual. I prefer insulin (tho I've never taken orals) just because I can bolus for any type of food that I want to eat. I don't have to worry so much about carb content except to count the carbs for my insulin bolus. Of course, using that logic, a careless insulin-dependent person can destroy their body by eating unhealthy foods. Just because we can bolus for donuts doesn't mean we should eat them! Anyway, I'm sure there are others here who will try to answer your question, too. So you were in the AF? I've just heard from my youngest son that he's been accepted into pilot training (USN)! He and his wife are on cloud nine! My husband was also in the AF and in Viet Nam. Mary >>>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > > Mary Sounds like walking a tightrope. I think that for me it's best to forget about gum drops and french fries and move on to pickles(Yuck!!!), celery sticks, and peanuts. It's easier for me to just drop habits quickly and never revisit them than to go back and forth. I think I am fairly well used to the idea of being a salid and chicken kinda guy from here on out. I ate great food all over the world, drank many a bar dry, and now it's payback time. But I gotta tell you sometimes after years of running and keeping fit and trim the words "Why me" slip into my thoughts when Im standing at the checkout counter next to a guy who's way, way overweight, out of shape and buying twinkies, jelly beans, and moon pies. Then I just plop down my cash for a new jar of dill pickles, wipe the drool from my chin and move on. I was in the Army. Drafted in 1970 and ended up staying until 1995 because I loved to fly and loved to travel. I hope your son does well and stays well. >Sounds like walking a tightrope. I think that for me it's best to forget >about gum drops and french fries and move on to pickles(Yuck!!!), celery [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I ate great food all over the world, drank many a bar dry, and now it's >payback time. Chief, what I'm about to say may well endanger the lives of some people here: they might keel over in shock at hearing *me* say this! You don't have to be draconian on your diet. Sure, during the first month or so you may have to be extra careful. I certainly did. However, as time passes and you stabilize, you will probably find that you can still eat most of the foods you ate before. Maybe not in as large a serving, but they are still there. For example, pre Dx (we often call the date we were diagnosed Dx day, or Dx) I used to love german breads. I'd basically assumed that I'd never be able to eat things like that again. Well, I just had a round with dinner, and no problem, and have been having a round with lunch or dinner quite often lately. BTW, to explain my opening comment (the bit about shock): When I first arrived here my diet was truly draconian, and even when I broadened my diet a bit I'd totally exclude many, many foods that I used to love, to the point where my eating habits are a bit of a running joke around here. :-) . >But I gotta tell you sometimes after years of running and keeping fit and >trim the words "Why me" slip into my thoughts when Im standing at the >checkout counter next to a guy who's way, way overweight, out of shape >and buying twinkies, jelly beans, and moon pies. Then I just plop down my >cash for a new jar of dill pickles, wipe the drool from my chin and move >on. Chief, I sure know that feeling! Granted, I was 30 lbs overweight, but I'm very active. My main hobby is mountain hiking, which I do almost daily, plus a lot of other activity. Also, I ate a lot better than most people even before Dx. I've never liked sugar, and if I was in line with you it would be the pickles I'd go for, not the sugary stuff you mentioned, because that's the sort of thing I like. Yet, at 38, here I am a T2... The best explanation I've heard is that genetics plays a huge role in this. >But I gotta tell you sometimes after years of running and keeping fit and >trim the words "Why me" slip into my thoughts when Im standing at the >checkout counter next to a guy who's way, way overweight, out of shape >and buying twinkies, jelly beans, and moon pies. It's your own fault. You chose your parents and grandparents badly. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. >>But I gotta tell you sometimes after years of running and keeping fit >>and trim the words "Why me" slip into my thoughts when Im standing at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Yep, I should have known better. When that boat docked in New York, I should have stuck with the first class passengers. But no, not me. Like an idiot I found a broke potatoe eating mick and what have I got to show for it? A craving for fresh potatoes and the inability to eat one. >>>>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] > because I loved to fly and loved to travel. I hope your son does well and > stays well. Thanks, Chief. "Why me?" is perfectly understandable, but one thing you can be thankful for is that diabetes didn't hit you until after you retired. That's one thing I think about with my son--how disappointed he would be if he got something like diabetes, and I pray to God he doesn't. He's had great experiences and opportunities in the Navy, and I hope he makes it to retirement as he wishes. You have an advantage in that over the years you have developed a good attitude and habits concerning your fitness/health level. If you get a T1 diagnosis (which I think you will), you would be a perfect candidate for an insulin pump, and it would give you more freedom to do what you desire in life. As for the twinkies, jelly beans & moon pies--sometimes I drool for them, eat them, then realize that it wasn't all that great anyway. Aside from that, if you learn carb counting (whether on shots or a pump), you can eat those things but just learn to bolus insulin to cover them. You won't have to limit your diet much, if at all, when you're trained properly--and that will take a well-informed MD, diabetes educator and dietician team that can educate you properly. Just ask my husband--he eats a lot more junk food than me :) -- we both pump. And both our A1Cs are in the 5 or 6 range. Mary >>>>>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > to God he doesn't. He's had great experiences and opportunities in > the Navy, and I hope he makes it to retirement as he wishes. I wouldn't worry - it doesn't accomplish much. Funny thing about that. Guys who focus on making it to retirement often don't make it to retirement. Guys who focus on doing the best job they can almost always make it to retirement. I've found it's best to set goals just outside of the realm of the possible and reachable when your young. > You have an advantage in that over the years you have developed a good > attitude and habits concerning your fitness/health level. If you get > a T1 diagnosis (which I think you will), you would be a perfect > candidate for an insulin pump, and it would give you more freedom to > do what you desire in life. Just in the limited net surfing I've done it seems that Type 1 has more research going on. But who knows what is happening as we speak. > As for the twinkies, jelly beans & moon pies--sometimes I drool for > them, eat them, then realize that it wasn't all that great anyway. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Mary I think, I'll stick with my new and improved diet regardless of what the BG does or doesn't do. I'm finding the low carb and high fiber stuff is agreeing with my digestion much better. Take Care >>>>>>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 202 lines] > > Take Care Sounds great! The junk food is just that--junk. And a lower carb, higher fiber diet will benefit you in many ways. Keep up the good work. It sounds like you're doing as much as possible until you get your next appt with the endo. Hang in there! Mary >>>>>>>>>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>>>>>>>>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 202 lines] > > Take Care For sure my son is focusing on doing the best job possible. He wants to make the Navy a career, but he's already done so well because of his hard work and determination. He's been Senior Sailor of the Quarter twice in the past few years--once for his ship (USS Abraham Lincoln) and once at the base in Tokyo. Sorry I'm bragging--can't help myself--but it's to his credit, not mine! He's a great kid (oops, man). >once for his ship (USS Abraham Lincoln) and I helped build that Carrier. SignatureMâck©® Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o o) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Jesus never hated anyone. > He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight physicals >every year until I was 45 and retired in 1995. I can't imagine they missed >I was diabetic all those years. he didn't say? first sign that you need to switch docs. look for an endocrinologist they specialize in diabetes care. >Isn't Type 1 for younger folks? No. Type 1 can develop at any age. However it's onset is not as rapid in adults as it is in children which frequently leads to being misdiagnosed as a type 2. This does not mean that you were actually misdiagnosed simply because your GP started you out on insulin. The correct diagnostic tools are blood tests, namely a c-peptide or c-reactice peptide. or the GAD anti body test. This will actually show which type you are. >And aren't low Bg's more of a problem for >T1's? No. There are oral meds that type 2s take that will cause lows and reactive hypoglycemia often precedes full blown type 2 diabetes and does not go away once that diagnosis is established and lows from that do not require meds. > I can stop eating and still have high BG readings. Even at only 800 >to 1000 cal a day I'm running an average of 160's. until you get an official diagnosis based on the proper blood tests we can only guess as to the causes for this at this point and there are a few. Going too long between meals will cause a liver dump of stored glycogen. you avoid this by eating the correct daily amount for you in 6 to 8 small meals rather than 3 large meals. You could still be experiencing glucose toxicity which makes control very difficult to establish for a type 2 in the beginning. the insulin you are using is not enough to get you out of it and control the BG correctly. There are other possibilities. >I'm not talking from knowledge just wondering. keep doing so, you are on the right track. >I do remember feeling more tired than normal about a year after I retired >but just chalked it up to getting older and doing less exercise. I didn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Yep, I'm thinking if he doesnt open up with some information soon I'm out >of here and looking for a new doctor. you should be insisting on a referral to an endocrinologist now. this git handed you insulin and tossed you out the door with no real knowledge or training. That's is not just irresponsible it is down right dangerous. >From what I have read at the different Diabetes sites my BG's when they >were 400 and up were to high for just pills but I have wondered why I don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I think he should have given me both so that I could use the pen after >meals and let the pills hold it down between meals. But then I'm no doctor. if you are type 2 it would been better to give you the insulin long enough to reduce your BG and start you on the oral meds and at the same time change your diet and exercise routine. Then drop the insulin and attempt to maintain with orals and diet and exercise and if possible in time drop the orals. you were not given any diabetes education, you were not given the opportunity to make any decisions in your own goals and treatment and you are not being closely and properly monitored. SignatureMâck©® Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o o) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Jesus never hated anyone. >> He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight physicals >>every year until I was 45 and retired in 1995. I can't imagine they >>missed I was diabetic all those years. > > he didn't say? first sign that you need to switch docs. look for an > endocrinologist they specialize in diabetes care. He's an endo recommended by a doctor I initially went to for what I thought at the time was the problem - my stomach. I think I need to look around more. I never needed a doctor for anything but a flight physical my entire life. I guess I need to get Doctor smart quick. >>Isn't Type 1 for younger folks? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > c-reactice peptide. or the GAD anti body test. This will actually > show which type you are. Wonder why I wasn't told what Type I am? >>And aren't low Bg's more of a problem for >>T1's? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > not enough to get you out of it and control the BG correctly. There > are other possibilities. The original prescription was for 6units (using the Novolog pen) after each meal. I tried that for a about a week and then called the doctor when the meter reading was over 600(Hi) after a week in the 300-400's He told me to raise the amount up until I get it down. Today I'm using 26units. My training is as an engineer and I keep hoping to see a pattern develope where I can say that if I take X number of shots of quanity Y at these times then for most days of eating z amount of carbs this will keep me at a decent level. That would make me a happier man. This ping pong game of chasing the BG all over the place is wearing me out. It's really a pain when just before bed I get a high reading and then have to figure out what to do and wait to see if it was the right thing to do >>I'm not talking from knowledge just wondering. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > knowledge or training. That's is not just irresponsible it is down > right dangerous. He's an endo doc. In his defense, I was backdoored onto his schedule by a a friend of his. I'll give him the second visit and see what happens. I fully intend to approach this desease like I would a test flight and I already have completely changed my lifestyle, diet, habits and exercise routine. I am willing to do whatever it takes to have as normal a life as I can get. The rest is up to a competent doctor. >>From what I have read at the different Diabetes sites my BG's when >>they were 400 and up were to high for just pills but I have wondered [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > you were not given any diabetes education - nope, you were not given the opportunity to make any decisions in your own goals and treatment - nope and you are not being closely and properly monitored - nope. Look like three strikes? I'll hit the second appointment and see if there is any future in this relationship. Thanks for taking the time. Appriciated | >> He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight physicals | >>every year until I was 45 and retired in 1995. I can't imagine they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | but a flight physical my entire life. I guess I need to get Doctor smart | quick. Ouch! yep, you need to let your fingers do the walking and quickly. | >>Isn't Type 1 for younger folks? | > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | > | Wonder why I wasn't told what Type I am? Most doctors don't say, it's almost automatically presumed because of weight and age you would be a T2... | >>And aren't low Bg's more of a problem for | >>T1's? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] | reading was over 600(Hi) after a week in the 300-400's He told me to | raise the amount up until I get it down. Today I'm using 26units. Using 26u for a meal is close to a T2 dose. | My training is as an engineer and I keep hoping to see a pattern develope | where I can say that if I take X number of shots of quanity Y at these | times then for most days of eating z amount of carbs this will keep me at | a decent level. Hate to burst your balloon... but that will rarely happen even for a T1 most times. You'll soon learn, you can eat the exact same thing, at the exact same time.. just the next day and you can even have the exact same premeal glucose reading, but you will not have the exact same after you finish... We humans are just weird like that. I get really lucky with my guestimating some days.. some days I'm playing catchup with corrections because I royally messed up with my guessing how many carbs... | That would make me a happier man. This ping pong game of chasing the BG | all over the place is wearing me out. It's really a pain when just before [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] | | Thanks for taking the time. Appriciated Listen to Mack, he might be a T1.. but he's a smart cookie.. he's one of the ones that knocked some sense into me to make me fight for proper treatment. I believe if it weren't for some here, i'd prolly be dead from DKA.. btw.. watch out for the Trolls around here too.. seems their multiplying like larve <g> RK, t1 >| >> He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight >| >> physicals [quoted text clipped - 155 lines] > > RK, t1 I guess your right and I won't get the 'perfect world'. Sure would be nice. Who knows maybe they will find more and better stuff since the number of diabetic cash cows are growing so rapidly. Maybe this newsgroup will be empty someday. What could possibly make a troll interested in Diabetes - weird. Thanks >>> He never really said but I did take fairly rigorous flight physicals >>>every year until I was 45 and retired in 1995. I can't imagine they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >but a flight physical my entire life. I guess I need to get Doctor smart >quick. Yes, definitely shop around. One thing that might help you is to look for the local American Diabetes Association support groups, these are face to face support groups run by fellow diabetics. They usually take place in hospitals, borrowing or renting their cafeterias or meeting rooms. Call the local hospitals and ask if they host any. The members will know which endos in the area are the best. Sadly their are idiots who get the specialist titles. I've run into a couple of them in my 30 as a type 1. Luckily when it comes to specialists there are fewer idiots because of the requirements and because of the highly self motivated and self educated patients they have to deal with. >>>Isn't Type 1 for younger folks? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >Wonder why I wasn't told what Type I am? the test may never have been done. >>>And aren't low Bg's more of a problem for >>>T1's? [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >bed I get a high reading and then have to figure out what to do and wait >to see if it was the right thing to do okay you need to stop right here. 26 units of novolog is extremely high for any type 1 to take. That is an amount that a type 2 would take due to "insulin resistance". Insulin Resistance = IR is the defining characteristic of type 2 diabetes. Also you have to factor in how long the insulin will actually last. Novolog will not last long enough to cover your bodies needs between meals. So if you are still dealing with the initial glucose toxicity and or high insulin resistance you have nothing to cover your body's needs when the novolog wears off in about 3 hours maybe up to 4 tops as it peters out. It will be most effective at around 1.5 to 2 hours after injecting. >>>I'm not talking from knowledge just wondering. >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > >Thanks for taking the time. Appriciated Diabetes Education classes are pretty much standard for all new diabetics with insurance coverage or the ability to pay out of pocket. They are taught by CDEs Certified Diabetes Educators and may even include a Dietician. The endo should have the schedule for the classes in his area and should have written you a script/order for the class for your insurance company the day you saw him. Ask for this. Ask about the proper meds to reduce insulin resistance. They can be taken with injected insulin but you will cut back on the dosage of insulin and find your between meal BGs staying down. regular exercise has to become a part of the program. many type 2s find that a half hour to an hour walk after some meals greatly reduces post meal BGs. It also improves health in other areas and allows us to spend quality time with spouses. It's a win win plan no matter how you look at it. as far as your questions about testing frequency and getting your insurance to pay for it goes. The problem is that many companies do not think type 2s need to test frequently, not even when they are newly diagnosed and learning. They are wrong. And you have to fight with them sometimes. A good endo who supports your desire to maintain good control will write you the scripts specifying the number of times per day that you should be testing or the minimum number of strips per month you should be getting and include the instruction to refill as needed. A good testing pattern for a newly diagnosed type 2 is explained at http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org under the newly diagnosed section aka Jennifer's Advice to newbies. Once you get your BG under control and get your A1c where it should be and you learn how your body reacts to certain meals then you cut back on the testing only to the point where you are comfortable. Testing only once a day or only twice a day or only relying on the A1c test results is completely inadequate for good diabetes management. And since "you" are using insulin you must test as frequently as any type 1 would. SignatureMâck©® Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o o) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Jesus never hated anyone. > Wonder why I wasn't told what Type I am? Cos they haven't done the tests to see yet. I'd insist on them, in your shoes. You may not be a straightforward diagnosis. > My training is as an engineer Aha! One of those : ) Look for Derek Paine's experiences on the www.mendosa.com website - he talks your language. Problem is, each of us reacts to different foods, exercise and experiences differently, so you'll still have to do all your own testing - but it gives you some heads-ups. > and I keep hoping to see a pattern develop > where I can say that if I take X number of shots of quanity Y at these > times then for most days of eating z amount of carbs this will keep me at > a decent level. If you're a T2, your exogenous insulin needs are (hopefully) going to drop to nothing, as Chris J experienced. If you're not - don't ask me : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg >> Wonder why I wasn't told what Type I am? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you'll still have to do all your own testing - but it gives you some > heads-ups. Not completely a left brainer - I do wear matching socks - most of the time. >> and I keep hoping to see a pattern develop >> where I can say that if I take X number of shots of quanity Y at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Nicky. Thanks for the info. I got so much in the last day that I didn't know and some great links. >you should be insisting on a referral to an endocrinologist now. this >git handed you insulin and tossed you out the door with no real >knowledge or training. That's is not just irresponsible it is down >right dangerous. I totally agree with what Mack says here, but I'd like to add that while dangerous, it's not sadly not uncommon. It happened to me too, when I left the hospital. >>I think he should have given me both so that I could use the pen after >>meals and let the pills hold it down between meals. But then I'm no doctor. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >insulin and attempt to maintain with orals and diet and exercise and >if possible in time drop the orals. I was put on Metformin in the hospital, then they increased the dose a week later. As for getting off the insulin, one way that can be done is, if using a chart or similar method of calculating doses, let the lowering blood sugar levels reduce the amounts per day, then the number of shots, until they reach zero. That's how I did it, though that wasn't my Doc's plan at all. (so let the more experienced weigh in on this if you consider it). >>you should be insisting on a referral to an endocrinologist now. this >>git handed you insulin and tossed you out the door with no real [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > that wasn't my Doc's plan at all. (so let the more experienced weigh > in on this if you consider it). I can see this happening just today I dropped the shot to 10 units for the dinner meal - it was 26 units until tonight. But I'm up right now just to check if I dropped it to much or not enough. But at the same time I took off a couple of months just to deal with this stuff and I'm eating much less than I think I will need when I start working again. So I probably started this all wrong to begin with. My Goal has been to get the BG down to 140 and below and no higher. Today was the best day yet with my BG around 100 all day except for two excursions over 200. One early in the morning and one at 1 PM. The one at 1PM really confused me because I did not eat a lunch at all and went walking instead. But I can see now that it's possible to get to diet and exercise. Wouldn't that be great. If that happens I'm retiring completely. >Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote in >> I was put on Metformin in the hospital, then they increased the dose a >> week later. As for getting off the insulin, one way that can be done [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the dinner meal - it was 26 units until tonight. But I'm up right now >just to check if I dropped it to much or not enough. The downward trend is a good sign! Don't get depressed if you have minor setbacks, though. They do happen. >But at the same time I took off a couple of months just to deal with this >stuff and I'm eating much less than I think I will need when I start >working again. So I probably started this all wrong to begin with. I started badly too. I came out of hospital not having a clue as to what I could eat. I thought that carbs were bad, Protein was bad in large doses, and fat was out! So, I ended up eating steamed broccoli and tofu for every meal, and not getting good nutrition or enough calories. >My Goal has been to get the BG down to 140 and below and no higher. That is a good goal IMHO (In My Humble Opinion). . >Today >was the best day yet with my BG around 100 all day except for two >excursions over 200. >One early in the morning and one at 1 PM. The one at >1PM really confused me because I did not eat a lunch at all and went >walking instead. That might have been what we call a liver dump. When the liver senses your BG is getting low (0ften caused by skipping meals) it can release glucose into the bloodstream. In the early stages of treatment a T2 can have glucose toxicity, which compounds the problem. Also, the liver takes a while to adapt after long periods of high BG's, so might release at higher levels then it should. (If I've bungled this explanation, someone please correct me). Was the one in the morning before or after breakfast? >But I can see now that it's possible to get to diet and exercise. It may be. I never did. I'm still on a pill called Metformin. However, Metformin has some benefits; it's shown to help protect the heart, and lower insulin resistance. In my own opinion, (and not everyone here agrees), for me personally, I'd stay on it even if I didn't need it to keep my BG's down. It's one pill twice a day, so no big deal for me at all. However, if your doc puts you on it, I'd suggest starting at a low dose (say 500mg a day) and working your way up to whatever is prescribed. The reason is that it can have some nasty intestinal effects on some people, sometimes just temporary, and starting low and working your way up seems to be the vastly preferred method. I don't know what percentage of people have trouble with it. I never had any problems. >>Chris J. <chris@noadress.com> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > know what percentage of people have trouble with it. I never had any > problems. Still got two long weeks before I get to spent the 15 minutes with the doctor. Never looked forward to a doctors appointment before. Question When I get the BG range lower will that mean that the symptomes of a high BG will also start lower? I think that happened this morning. I had the dry mouth, dry tongue, fruity smell and fatigue. But when I tested the BG was high 210, but I haven't had a problem at that level before. After the info dump I got fro this group yesterday, I am thinking that this morning could be a good sign. > When I get the BG range lower will that mean that the symptomes of a high > BG will also start lower? Yes. You may also feel hypo at lower levels - or when you get a big bg change, even when you're not in dangerous hypo territory. The treatment's the same - a small amount of fast-acting carbs, wait a bit, test again. Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg >Still got two long weeks before I get to spent the 15 minutes with the >doctor. Never looked forward to a doctors appointment before. I can certainly agree with that! I was the same. I hate going to the Docs, but since Dx, especially my early appointments, I can't wait. Actually, in order to avoid postponing my two-week appointment by one day, I passed up a free night at a 5-star resort. In hindsight, I'd have taken the one day delay and had the free extra day, but back then I wouldn't even consider it. >Question > >When I get the BG range lower will that mean that the symptomes of a high >BG will also start lower? In my opinion, yes. That was certainly the case with me. I never really felt the thirst and other symptoms, at all. Looking back, I'd feel very tired after a carby meal, and had low energy overall, but that was about it. And my Bg at diagnosis was over 600. However, not long after getting my Bg's down, I felt the old tiredness suddenly return (turned out I'd inadvertently eaten a very carby meal) and was at 163. So, there was definitely a change for me. >I think that happened this morning. I had the dry mouth, dry tongue, >fruity smell and fatigue. But when I tested the BG was high 210, but I >haven't had a problem at that level before. After the info dump I got fro >this group yesterday, I am thinking that this morning could be a good >sign. It could be, as it may very well indicate lowering BG's, and your body getting used to them. That's important on many levels. With me, my FBG's (morning fasting BG's) were the last thing to come down. For a while they were my highest of the day. When I first started, my BG's were all over the place. 600 in hospital, and my in-hospital readings (after starting insulin) ranged in the three and four hundreds. For a while after I got out, they bounced all over the place, from the 120's to over 400 a few times. >>Still got two long weeks before I get to spent the 15 minutes with the >>doctor. Never looked forward to a doctors appointment before. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > in the three and four hundreds. For a while after I got out, they > bounced all over the place, from the 120's to over 400 a few times. Chris, This is selfish to say but I can't tell you how great it is to hear simular experiences. Someone ought to take this road show public. I'd imagine there are tons of diabetics thinking they are the only person in the world with their problems. I don't think I got past the first three google pages of diabetes sites but there really wasn't much there beyond what any dictionary would have except Mendosa's page. I guess the worry of a lawsuit keeps the info flow down. >> When I first started, my BG's were all over the place. 600 in >> hospital, and my in-hospital readings (after starting insulin) ranged [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Chris, This is selfish to say but I can't tell you how great it is to >hear simular experiences. Not selfish at all! I posted them in the hopes that it would be helpful to you to hear them, and I'm delighted that you feel as you do. >Someone ought to take this road show public. I'd imagine there are tons >of diabetics thinking they are the only person in the world with their >problems. I totally agree. I was very lucky: I stumbled onto this group during my first internet searches, a few hours after getting out of hospital. >I don't think I got past the first three google pages of diabetes sites >but there really wasn't much there beyond what any dictionary would have >except Mendosa's page. I found a few sites, many offering contradictory advice. Mendosa's page is a good one though! >"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >be a better place - at least for the men. Come to think of it maybe it's >time for a detailed study? I can see where the frequent sex would be good for the men, but why would men wearing daisy duke cut off shorts be a good thing for men for any reason? SignatureMâck©® Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.diabetic-talk.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." ...Theodore Roosevelt (o o) --ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------------- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." Jesus never hated anyone. >>"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3sne17Fp088aU1 >>@individual.net: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > would men wearing daisy duke cut off shorts be a good thing for men > for any reason? What? I thought it was my day to be funny. Besides you ever seen a guy dressed in Daisy Dukes trying to get the seam out of his throat? Pretty dang funny and a laugh is always good. >> Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? >> > yes. and it's KETONES. > > Dave Someday, somebody is going to correct that spelling error on those meters. Some meters come up with "keytones". I guess the person who programmed it was not "diabatic" ;) VBH > >> Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > meters. Some meters come up with "keytones". I guess the person who > programmed it was not "diabatic" ;) Or at least they could have it play a little tune... Priscilla > Someday, somebody is going to correct that spelling error on those meters. > Some meters come up with "keytones". I guess the person who programmed it > was not "diabatic" ;) Maybe "adiabatic"? : ) Nicky. SignatureA1c 10.5/5.6/<6 T2 DX 05/2004 1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine 95/74/72Kg > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? If you're eating pretty low-carb, sure. Priscilla | Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? yes for a T2.. it's called "low carb" eating. and some say its unhealthy (oh here comes the fighting again) some say it isn't.. me, if it isn't natural then its unhealthy.. we need a certain amount of energy a day for fuel for our bodies., low carbing isn't the way *I* choose to lose weight. for a T1 can mean the same, unless they have high glucose at the same time... then T1's run into trouble most often. i used to be there often.. my medical chart is stamped DIABETIC IDDM - DKA PRONED This post not CC'd by email >if it isn't natural then its unhealthy.. G'day G'day Reisa, I'm fascinated by the methods people use to decide what is right and wrong. One way is to make a generality and then fit the specific into that generality to decide what to do. You know the sort of thing. Stealing is wrong except in exceptional circumstances. Therefore shoplifting is wrong except in exceptional circumstance. I got to wondering whether this was really how they did it or merely how it appeared to them that they did it. Let me give you an example. Injecting insulin isn't natural. I know of no other animal that injects insulin from some external source into its body. Most humans don't even do it. Yet, I fully accept that T1 diabetics must do it if they are to stay healthy. IMHO, unless you wish to play around with semantics, you will also admit injecting insulin is an unnatural yet healthier option for T1s if they do it right. That would seem to mean that for some reason you had already decided low carb was unhealthy and the generalisation came after the fact in a supporting role. OK, let's look at low carb diets in nature. It is tempting to think that they don't exist, yet some humans live in cruel climates. How would an Inuit in the depths of Winter get say 55% of their calories from carbohydrate? <rhetorical> >we need a certain amount of energy a day for fuel for our bodies., This is another generality which makes it even clearer that the decision on specifics can precede the formation of the generality. Put simply the specific cannot be deduced from the generality. Perhaps you meant to say something like, "We need a certain amount of glucose per day." It isn't really important. >low carbing isn't the way *I* choose to lose weight. Same. I don't do the exceptional low carb diet that produces ketones in the urine. FWIIW some low carb advocates do NOT advocate reducing carb intake to the point where ketones are produced. The originators of the GO-diet were quite adamant on the subject. http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/go-diet.html They claimed weight loss was fastest when one reduced carb intake to the point just before ketones appeared in the urine. Unfortunately I can't direct you to a reference for this tidbit as their website http://www.go-diet.com is now reduced to a single page flogging off their book. If the tidbit should be available elsewhere on the net then I have just illustrated the point I was making about decision making. <grin> Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin | This post not CC'd by email | [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] | | Best wishes, Perhaps since I was raised pretty old fashioned I still hold those old fashions true today. Just to give you an example of where I'm coming from... First off, I was adopted as a baby. My adopted mother always kept me moving, she had me in several activities and always physical. She'd nag the living tar outta me if I'd open the frig door after school when I was hungry.. or nag and bitch at me if I ate something that wasn't healthy. We always had fresh nuts, fruit and veggies at home to eat.. I never was a sweets eater... a slice of cake or pie... a candy bar here or there would do me for weeks. She'd told me once that she was told my natural mother was severely obese as was her whole family. My adoptive mother was 5'0 and most times 105lbs... she once got to 126lbs but that was when she was flat on her back for 4month with phlebitis.. right after the clots desolved she was up moving and quickly lost the weight again. We always ate healthy.. very little red meat.. lots of pork, fish and chicken.. always had one small starch food and 2 veggies at dinner often with a salad as well. She always made sure I had a healthy good complex carb breakfast and fruit with a sandwich for lunch. When I was 27, my half sister found me and to my surprise she was a heffer. I quickly learned so was my natural mother.. who died of liver failure at the age of 47 and weighing in at a hefty 425lbs. I've NEVER been over 165lbs in my life! lol and that was when I was pregnant no less! --- My point to this little story?.... is that my adoptive mother was raised in the mid-west in the heart of Iowa.... her father was a strawberry and green bean farmer... she knew the value of needing complex carbs for energy for the body as she did knowing the simple rule... you'll lose weight if you burn more calories then you eat. I was like that as well my entire life... I still am mostly and work the best I can at it with my back problems. I realize that not all are as fortunate as I have been. But... when you compare injecting insulin to remain alive to starving the body of needed nutrients for the sole sake of losing weight.. that to me is just down right dumb... there is no comparision in my book... You cannot make logic out of that. RK, t1 by no fault of her own This post not CC'd by email >Perhaps since I was raised pretty old fashioned I still hold those >old fashions true today. Just to give you an example of where I'm [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >and work the >best I can at it with my back problems. G'day G'day Reisa, Thank you for your reply. It is much appreciated. It is clear you have a strong sense of identity and that how you grew up has been important in forming that strong sense of identity It confirms for me that the reasons people give for making various choices has very little to do with logic they provide in support of their decisions. The decision has already been made. What you have shown me most clearly is how that decision was made. Some people suggest there is a hierarchy that governs our choices. It has been a while since I thought about such things but it goes something like, 1 Beliefs about what is greater than ourselves, what we are part of. 2 Beliefs about identity. 3 Beliefs about what is OK. 4 Beliefs about capability 5 Context. The ones at the top tend to over ride those at the bottom. If you look at what you have felt important to say to me you will recognise that it is very much about your genetic make up, ie beliefs about your identity and about the family and the community you grew up in. (What is greater than yourself) >I realize that not all are as fortunate as I have been. But... when you >compare [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >no >comparision in my book... You cannot make logic out of that. Oh. Not once have you used the word "natural" in your summary. What was and wasn't natural was a vital part of the supporting logic given with deciding not to adopt a low carb diet. As you have shown most clearly is the actual reasons were based on upbringing, family and identity. >RK, t1 by no fault of her own Interesting. It must be terrible to be afflicted with an incurable condition that is no fault of one's own. Out of a sense of curiosity which I may come to regret, "Do you think it is easier to be afflicted with say T2 diabetes which many people blame fairly and squarely on the person who has it?" Best wishes and thank you for a fascinating discussion. SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin | This post not CC'd by email | [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] | clearly is the actual reasons were based on upbringing, family and | identity. perhaps the natural part comes in to play that here in the states for hundreds of years midwesterners have always eaten a higher carb meal. one thing that I didn't put which probably I should have.. is that the era that I was raised in... basically circa 1940's is that the family never sat around doing nothing.. there was always an activity or two... the kids today really don't do much of anything other then play video games, on the computer or listen to their iPods.. heck soon they'll be able to watch their iPods as well. so... natural being since the caveman (if there was such a thing) eating higher carbs was a must to subtain their energy levels to go hunting. -- then again, i'm not totally baggin on ultra low-carb. I consider what I used to eat high carb.. I moderate carb now... anywhere from 100gm-140gm a day. I maintain my weight along with a good bg reading most times, despite my pain... and still am complication free. Can't ask for anymore then that. Reisa... off to the gym for the kid | >RK, t1 by no fault of her own | [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | Best wishes and thank you for a fascinating discussion. Wow, RK, what a story you told about yourself. As you can tell, I am reading some of the other posts here. Hope that I will be able to learn some. Jeannette > | This post not CC'd by email > | [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > > RK, t1 by no fault of her own > FWIIW some low carb advocates do NOT advocate reducing carb intake to > the point where ketones are produced. The originators of the GO-diet [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They claimed weight loss was fastest when one reduced carb intake to > the point just before ketones appeared in the urine. Unfortunately I I think Atkins advocated gradually increasing carbs until the dieter is out of ketosis for a week, then dropping back down to the level where they are barely in ketosis to get the best loss rate. The extreme low carb business and slowly adding things back is mainly to break addictions and identify food intolerances. Some things are actually closer than it looks at first glance. SignatureNo Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? Depends on what you are doing. Ketones are a NATURAL by-product of burning fat so if you are dieting you may well have normal BG and be producing ketones. > Is it possible to have normal BG levels and still have high keytones? You can if you're eating a low carb diet. The ketones are a by-product of burning fat and before anyone "goes off on one", ketones in your urine is NOT the same a ketoacidosis. SignatureBeav Reply to "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com" (with the obvious changes) |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.