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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005

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Ping Chris J!

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Bastian - 25 Oct 2005 16:13 GMT
Hey Chris J,

It's almost time for out three month A1c and bloodwork, I'm looking
forward to comparing notes and seeing the results. Two newbies facing a
brave new world together!

Hope you're doing really well, I've been a bit naughty recently so who
knows...

Have fun,
Bastian.
Chris J. - 25 Oct 2005 23:30 GMT
>Hey Chris J,
>
>It's almost time for out three month A1c and bloodwork, I'm looking
>forward to comparing notes and seeing the results. Two newbies facing a
>brave new world together!

Hey Bastian!

Yes indeed. Mine is scheduled for Nov 11th.
I'm making sure I don't get my hopes up for the HB1AC, though! Red
blood cells live about 120 days, so for you and me both there will be
plenty still around from pre-Dx.

>Hope you're doing really well, I've been a bit naughty recently so who
>knows...

What, you, naughty? :-)

Actually, I had a very shocking test this morning!

Back at Dx,  I found I was very carb-sensitive for breakfast, which I
last checked about two weeks after Dx. I've been keeping to under 10
carbs for breakfast ever since. So, this morning, I decided to do a
test and see if it's improved any. I had salad plus a slice and a half
of german bread (whole grain), totaling about 30 carbs.

So, I started out at 4.8 (88), and tested every 30 minutes. I kept
waiting for the high spike. But, I peaked at 5.3 (96). I was shocked.

What is most shocking is that is slightly lower (but within meter
error) than my normal low-carb-breakfast PP!

That simply does not make sense, but I'll try it again tomorrow and
see if it happens again.

So, how have you been? I've been very busy lately so haven't had time
to post much, though things are getting better now.
RK - 26 Oct 2005 00:01 GMT
| >Hey Chris J,
| >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| blood cells live about 120 days, so for you and me both there will be
| plenty still around from pre-Dx.

Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that
the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results
from?

Check out the Diabetes FAQ sometimes... it's a wonderful document.

I've tested this theory and found it to be true many times.  LOL, often
I'll put off my A1C at the doctors if I've been running higher then normal
until I get a good 2 week stretch with good numbers in them.
jacquelineheart@optonline.net - 26 Oct 2005 00:17 GMT
::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that
::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results
::from?

I can vouch for this! I was diagnosed in the ER with a number of 353.
I had my first A1c 8 weeks later, it was 5.4. Chris, your numbers have
been excellent for weeks now. I think (and hope).... you will be
pleasantly surprised :)

Jackie
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 05:36 GMT
>::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that
>::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>been excellent for weeks now. I think (and hope).... you will be
>pleasantly surprised :)

That's fantastic progress in an incredibly short period of time!
Congratulations!!!

I am aiming for the 5% club, but three months ago (at Dx) my fasting
BG was in the 600's, so I was being conservative and hoping I got
under 7 for the A1c... One reason for my skepticism is that I've seen
others here with great BG readings but high A1C's... Plus, I know that
A1C can vary up to 1% between individuals with identical BG readings.

BTW, one reason I picked 7% for a goal is that my Doc, a few days
after  Dx, said she would like to see me under 7% in a year.

I'd really, really like to shock her (in a good way) with a good A1c
this soon, though. :-)

Thanks, Jackie!
Colleen - 26 Oct 2005 14:29 GMT
If it's any consolation, I went from an A1c of 10.8 down to a 5.4 in 8
weeks.  The doc was flabbergasted.  I'm predicting that you'll be wayyyy
under 7%.
c

>>::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that
>>::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Thanks, Jackie!
Chris J. - 27 Oct 2005 07:47 GMT
>If it's any consolation, I went from an A1c of 10.8 down to a 5.4 in 8
>weeks.  The doc was flabbergasted.  I'm predicting that you'll be wayyyy
>under 7%.
>c

Wow, that's one heck of a drop! Congratulations!

Thanks, Colleen!
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 05:20 GMT
>"Chris J." <chris@noadress.com> wrote in message

>| Yes indeed. Mine is scheduled for Nov 11th.
>| I'm making sure I don't get my hopes up for the HB1AC, though! Red
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results
>from?

Hmmmm? I'd read that once red blood cells become  glycated  they stay
that way, and that the average red blood cell lives about 120 days. I
knew the HBa1c is weighted to the last few weeks, but evidently, I've
either read something inaccurate or misconstrued it. Thanks for the
correction.

>Check out the Diabetes FAQ sometimes... it's a wonderful document.

Thanks, I'd not heard of it, but some searching turned it up.
Excellent info!!!  You are quite correct, it does go into detail about
HBa1c timing, and how so much of the literature is wrong.
I've pasted in the relevant text and a link to the FAQ at the bottom
of the post.

>I've tested this theory and found it to be true many times.  LOL, often
>I'll put off my A1C at the doctors if I've been running higher then normal
>until I get a good 2 week stretch with good numbers in them.

LOL!
So, the day before my test would not be the opportune time to eat a
few boxes of sugar glazed, sugar filled donuts, with extra sugar on
top? :-)

OK, here is the link
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-08,G
GLD:en&q=misc%2Ehealth%2Ediabetestext

and here is the text on HBa1c timing

Subject: Why is interpreting HbA1c values tricky?

Interpreting HbA1c values is tricky for several reasons: differing lab
measurements, variation among
individuals, and misapprehension of the relevant timeframe.

First trick: several different lab measurements have been introduced
since 1980, measuring slightly
different subtypes with different limits for normal values and thus
different interpretive scales.

A National Glycohemoglobin Standardization Program began in 1996,
sponsored by the American Diabetes
Association and others. See reference 1. This program certifies HbA1c
assays which conform to the
method used in the DCCT. However, as of 1998 other versions are still
in use in many places, both in
the US and elsewhere. When you get a lab result, be sure to look at
what the lab considers to be the
normal range. Most discussion of HbA1c values in m.h.d appears to be
based on the DCCT, where the
normal range is approximately 3.0-6.1%. Caveat lector. (See part 5,
Research, of this FAQ for more
information on the DCCT, the Diabetes Control and Complications
Trial.)

Second trick: HbA1c levels appear to vary by up to 1.0% among
individuals with the same average bG.
See reference 2.

This is very recent research and its implications are not yet clear.
The actual reaction rates
governing the formation of HbA1c may vary among individuals. Some of
the variation may be due to
differences in erythrocyte (red blood cell) survival times -- the
rough 90-120 day range noted
earlier -- although other work limits this to a small part of the
total variation (see reference
5). Variations in the HbA1c formation rate may or may not correlate
with the rate of damage to
other tissues.

While we await further research, we can only say that differences of
4.% from one individual to another may not be meaningful.

Although HbA1c varies among individuals with the same average bG, it
is very stable for any given
individual. Thus a change of 1.0% in your own HbA1c is definitely
meaningful.

Third and final trick: most medical professionals have been given
incorrect information about the
timeframe which HbA1c represents. Even textbooks normally state the
90-120 day average, as does the
American Diabetes Association in its Position Statement on Tests of
Glycemia in Diabetes (see
reference 1).

The longer estimate is based on the assumption that the conversion of
hemoglobin A to HbA1c is
essentially irreversible. This was a reasonable assumption before the
reaction rates were actually
measured. See the following section for information about the research
which measured the reaction
rates and simulated the consequences.

See the following section for the references mentioned above.

Subject: Who determined the HbA1c reaction rates and the consequences?

In the early 1980s, Henrik Mortensen and colleagues at Glostrup
University Hospital, in Denmark,
measured the reaction rates in vitro. Their results showed the
assumption of irreversibility to be
untrue. In fact the reverse reaction (HbA1c to HbA and glucose)
proceeds at about
5/8 the rate of the forward reaction, which is very far from
irreversible. Mortensen et alia also
built a biokinetic model based on the measurements, and validated the
model by comparing its
predictions to actual patients. See references 3-5.

Among other things, Mortensen's work shows that after a change in
average bG level, the HbA1c
level restabilizes after about 4 weeks. This has several consequences.
Clinically, the most
important are these:

First, the HbA1c is an exponentially weighted average of blood glucose
levels from the preceding 4
weeks, with the most recent 2 weeks being by far the most important.

Second, measuring HbA1c less often than monthly results in unmonitored
gaps between measurements. To
use HbA1c as a continuous monitoring tool, you need to check it at
least once a month.

Third, it is worthwhile checking the HbA1c of newly diagnosed patients
as often as once a week to
determine the effectiveness of the newly imposed treatment.

Reference 1: American Diabetes Association, Tests of Glycemia in
Diabetes, Diabetes Care 23:S80-S82,
January 2000 Supplement 1. This specific issue is no longer available
online, but the most recent
version is available at http://diabetes.org/cpr/.

Reference 2: Kilpatrick ES, Maylor PW, Keevil BG: Biological Variation
of Glycated Hemoglobin.
Diabetes Care 21:261-264, February 1998. Abstract available on the web
at
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/261.

Reference 3: Mortensen HB, Christophersen C: Glucosylation of human
haemoglobin a in red blood
cells studied in vitro. Kinetics of the formation and dissociation of
haemoglobin A1c. Clinica
Chimica Acta
6:317-326, 15 November 1983.

Reference 4: Mortensen HB, Volund A, Christophersen C: Glucosylation
of human haemoglobin A. Dynamic
variation in HbA1c described by a biokinetic model. Clinica Chimica
Acta 136:75-81, 16 January 1984.

Reference 5: Mortensen HB, Volund A: Application of a biokinetic model
for prediction and assessment
of glycated haemoglobins in diabetic patients. Scandinavian Journal of
Clinical and Laboratory
Investigation
7:595-602, October 1988.
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 06:19 GMT
> Hmmmm? I'd read that once red blood cells become  glycated  they stay
> that way, and that the average red blood cell lives about 120 days. I
> knew the HBa1c is weighted to the last few weeks, but evidently, I've
> either read something inaccurate or misconstrued it. Thanks for the
> correction.

I'm pretty sure you read it right, Chris.

Susan
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 06:35 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I'm pretty sure you read it right, Chris.

I think I did, but the info was wrong. I've already confirmed that the
irreversibility of glycanation is not true, yet it's stated in several
places as fact.  
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 06:42 GMT
> I think I did, but the info was wrong. I've already confirmed that the
> irreversibility of glycanation is not true, yet it's stated in several
> places as fact.  

What I've seen is a general consensus that it's closest to a 3 mos.
average glycosylation, but with a lot of debate about how long the
window actually is.

I don't think there's any debate that the test is weighted toward the
most recent weeks, though, and anecdotally, quite a few folks have
observed that of theirs.

I think it's one of those things that gets treated in text as if it's a
known, exact science, but it's just not when more closely examined.

Susan
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 08:08 GMT
>x-no-archive: yes
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>average glycosylation, but with a lot of debate about how long the
>window actually is.

>I don't think there's any debate that the test is weighted toward the
>most recent weeks, though, and anecdotally, quite a few folks have
>observed that of theirs.
>
>I think it's one of those things that gets treated in text as if it's a
>known, exact science, but it's just not when more closely examined.

I think there is a lot of that in medicine, unfortunately.
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 14:54 GMT
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I think there is a lot of that in medicine, unfortunately.

Yes, there is.   :-/

Susan
 
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