Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005
Ping Chris J!
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Bastian - 25 Oct 2005 16:13 GMT Hey Chris J,
It's almost time for out three month A1c and bloodwork, I'm looking forward to comparing notes and seeing the results. Two newbies facing a brave new world together!
Hope you're doing really well, I've been a bit naughty recently so who knows...
Have fun, Bastian.
Chris J. - 25 Oct 2005 23:30 GMT >Hey Chris J, > >It's almost time for out three month A1c and bloodwork, I'm looking >forward to comparing notes and seeing the results. Two newbies facing a >brave new world together! Hey Bastian!
Yes indeed. Mine is scheduled for Nov 11th. I'm making sure I don't get my hopes up for the HB1AC, though! Red blood cells live about 120 days, so for you and me both there will be plenty still around from pre-Dx.
>Hope you're doing really well, I've been a bit naughty recently so who >knows... What, you, naughty? :-)
Actually, I had a very shocking test this morning!
Back at Dx, I found I was very carb-sensitive for breakfast, which I last checked about two weeks after Dx. I've been keeping to under 10 carbs for breakfast ever since. So, this morning, I decided to do a test and see if it's improved any. I had salad plus a slice and a half of german bread (whole grain), totaling about 30 carbs.
So, I started out at 4.8 (88), and tested every 30 minutes. I kept waiting for the high spike. But, I peaked at 5.3 (96). I was shocked.
What is most shocking is that is slightly lower (but within meter error) than my normal low-carb-breakfast PP!
That simply does not make sense, but I'll try it again tomorrow and see if it happens again.
So, how have you been? I've been very busy lately so haven't had time to post much, though things are getting better now.
RK - 26 Oct 2005 00:01 GMT | >Hey Chris J, | > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | blood cells live about 120 days, so for you and me both there will be | plenty still around from pre-Dx. Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results from?
Check out the Diabetes FAQ sometimes... it's a wonderful document.
I've tested this theory and found it to be true many times. LOL, often I'll put off my A1C at the doctors if I've been running higher then normal until I get a good 2 week stretch with good numbers in them.
jacquelineheart@optonline.net - 26 Oct 2005 00:17 GMT ::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that ::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results ::from? I can vouch for this! I was diagnosed in the ER with a number of 353. I had my first A1c 8 weeks later, it was 5.4. Chris, your numbers have been excellent for weeks now. I think (and hope).... you will be pleasantly surprised :)
Jackie
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 05:36 GMT >::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that >::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >been excellent for weeks now. I think (and hope).... you will be >pleasantly surprised :) That's fantastic progress in an incredibly short period of time! Congratulations!!!
I am aiming for the 5% club, but three months ago (at Dx) my fasting BG was in the 600's, so I was being conservative and hoping I got under 7 for the A1c... One reason for my skepticism is that I've seen others here with great BG readings but high A1C's... Plus, I know that A1C can vary up to 1% between individuals with identical BG readings.
BTW, one reason I picked 7% for a goal is that my Doc, a few days after Dx, said she would like to see me under 7% in a year.
I'd really, really like to shock her (in a good way) with a good A1c this soon, though. :-)
Thanks, Jackie!
Colleen - 26 Oct 2005 14:29 GMT If it's any consolation, I went from an A1c of 10.8 down to a 5.4 in 8 weeks. The doc was flabbergasted. I'm predicting that you'll be wayyyy under 7%. c
>>::Why not? You don't know that when they draw for a A1C that >>::the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks, Jackie! Chris J. - 27 Oct 2005 07:47 GMT >If it's any consolation, I went from an A1c of 10.8 down to a 5.4 in 8 >weeks. The doc was flabbergasted. I'm predicting that you'll be wayyyy >under 7%. >c Wow, that's one heck of a drop! Congratulations!
Thanks, Colleen!
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 05:20 GMT >"Chris J." <chris@noadress.com> wrote in message
>| Yes indeed. Mine is scheduled for Nov 11th. >| I'm making sure I don't get my hopes up for the HB1AC, though! Red [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the last 2 weeks glucose is normally read and what the test results >from? Hmmmm? I'd read that once red blood cells become glycated they stay that way, and that the average red blood cell lives about 120 days. I knew the HBa1c is weighted to the last few weeks, but evidently, I've either read something inaccurate or misconstrued it. Thanks for the correction.
>Check out the Diabetes FAQ sometimes... it's a wonderful document. Thanks, I'd not heard of it, but some searching turned it up. Excellent info!!! You are quite correct, it does go into detail about HBa1c timing, and how so much of the literature is wrong. I've pasted in the relevant text and a link to the FAQ at the bottom of the post.
>I've tested this theory and found it to be true many times. LOL, often >I'll put off my A1C at the doctors if I've been running higher then normal >until I get a good 2 week stretch with good numbers in them. LOL! So, the day before my test would not be the opportune time to eat a few boxes of sugar glazed, sugar filled donuts, with extra sugar on top? :-)
OK, here is the link http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-08,G GLD:en&q=misc%2Ehealth%2Ediabetestext and here is the text on HBa1c timing
Subject: Why is interpreting HbA1c values tricky?
Interpreting HbA1c values is tricky for several reasons: differing lab measurements, variation among individuals, and misapprehension of the relevant timeframe.
First trick: several different lab measurements have been introduced since 1980, measuring slightly different subtypes with different limits for normal values and thus different interpretive scales.
A National Glycohemoglobin Standardization Program began in 1996, sponsored by the American Diabetes Association and others. See reference 1. This program certifies HbA1c assays which conform to the method used in the DCCT. However, as of 1998 other versions are still in use in many places, both in the US and elsewhere. When you get a lab result, be sure to look at what the lab considers to be the normal range. Most discussion of HbA1c values in m.h.d appears to be based on the DCCT, where the normal range is approximately 3.0-6.1%. Caveat lector. (See part 5, Research, of this FAQ for more information on the DCCT, the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial.)
Second trick: HbA1c levels appear to vary by up to 1.0% among individuals with the same average bG. See reference 2.
This is very recent research and its implications are not yet clear. The actual reaction rates governing the formation of HbA1c may vary among individuals. Some of the variation may be due to differences in erythrocyte (red blood cell) survival times -- the rough 90-120 day range noted earlier -- although other work limits this to a small part of the total variation (see reference 5). Variations in the HbA1c formation rate may or may not correlate with the rate of damage to other tissues.
While we await further research, we can only say that differences of 4.% from one individual to another may not be meaningful.
Although HbA1c varies among individuals with the same average bG, it is very stable for any given individual. Thus a change of 1.0% in your own HbA1c is definitely meaningful.
Third and final trick: most medical professionals have been given incorrect information about the timeframe which HbA1c represents. Even textbooks normally state the 90-120 day average, as does the American Diabetes Association in its Position Statement on Tests of Glycemia in Diabetes (see reference 1).
The longer estimate is based on the assumption that the conversion of hemoglobin A to HbA1c is essentially irreversible. This was a reasonable assumption before the reaction rates were actually measured. See the following section for information about the research which measured the reaction rates and simulated the consequences.
See the following section for the references mentioned above.
Subject: Who determined the HbA1c reaction rates and the consequences?
In the early 1980s, Henrik Mortensen and colleagues at Glostrup University Hospital, in Denmark, measured the reaction rates in vitro. Their results showed the assumption of irreversibility to be untrue. In fact the reverse reaction (HbA1c to HbA and glucose) proceeds at about 5/8 the rate of the forward reaction, which is very far from irreversible. Mortensen et alia also built a biokinetic model based on the measurements, and validated the model by comparing its predictions to actual patients. See references 3-5.
Among other things, Mortensen's work shows that after a change in average bG level, the HbA1c level restabilizes after about 4 weeks. This has several consequences. Clinically, the most important are these:
First, the HbA1c is an exponentially weighted average of blood glucose levels from the preceding 4 weeks, with the most recent 2 weeks being by far the most important.
Second, measuring HbA1c less often than monthly results in unmonitored gaps between measurements. To use HbA1c as a continuous monitoring tool, you need to check it at least once a month.
Third, it is worthwhile checking the HbA1c of newly diagnosed patients as often as once a week to determine the effectiveness of the newly imposed treatment.
Reference 1: American Diabetes Association, Tests of Glycemia in Diabetes, Diabetes Care 23:S80-S82, January 2000 Supplement 1. This specific issue is no longer available online, but the most recent version is available at http://diabetes.org/cpr/.
Reference 2: Kilpatrick ES, Maylor PW, Keevil BG: Biological Variation of Glycated Hemoglobin. Diabetes Care 21:261-264, February 1998. Abstract available on the web at http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/261.
Reference 3: Mortensen HB, Christophersen C: Glucosylation of human haemoglobin a in red blood cells studied in vitro. Kinetics of the formation and dissociation of haemoglobin A1c. Clinica Chimica Acta 6:317-326, 15 November 1983.
Reference 4: Mortensen HB, Volund A, Christophersen C: Glucosylation of human haemoglobin A. Dynamic variation in HbA1c described by a biokinetic model. Clinica Chimica Acta 136:75-81, 16 January 1984.
Reference 5: Mortensen HB, Volund A: Application of a biokinetic model for prediction and assessment of glycated haemoglobins in diabetic patients. Scandinavian Journal of Clinical and Laboratory Investigation 7:595-602, October 1988.
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 06:19 GMT > Hmmmm? I'd read that once red blood cells become glycated they stay > that way, and that the average red blood cell lives about 120 days. I > knew the HBa1c is weighted to the last few weeks, but evidently, I've > either read something inaccurate or misconstrued it. Thanks for the > correction. I'm pretty sure you read it right, Chris.
Susan
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 06:35 GMT >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I'm pretty sure you read it right, Chris. I think I did, but the info was wrong. I've already confirmed that the irreversibility of glycanation is not true, yet it's stated in several places as fact.
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 06:42 GMT > I think I did, but the info was wrong. I've already confirmed that the > irreversibility of glycanation is not true, yet it's stated in several > places as fact. What I've seen is a general consensus that it's closest to a 3 mos. average glycosylation, but with a lot of debate about how long the window actually is.
I don't think there's any debate that the test is weighted toward the most recent weeks, though, and anecdotally, quite a few folks have observed that of theirs.
I think it's one of those things that gets treated in text as if it's a known, exact science, but it's just not when more closely examined.
Susan
Chris J. - 26 Oct 2005 08:08 GMT >x-no-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >average glycosylation, but with a lot of debate about how long the >window actually is.
>I don't think there's any debate that the test is weighted toward the >most recent weeks, though, and anecdotally, quite a few folks have >observed that of theirs. > >I think it's one of those things that gets treated in text as if it's a >known, exact science, but it's just not when more closely examined. I think there is a lot of that in medicine, unfortunately.
Susan - 26 Oct 2005 14:54 GMT >>x-no-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I think there is a lot of that in medicine, unfortunately. Yes, there is. :-/
Susan
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