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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005Newbie here. How do I get enough calories?
That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. Last week I had my first fasting BG level over 110 - it was 114 to be exact. But two weeks before my non-fasting level was 105, so I don't know WTF is going on. But I'm here to try to head things off if I can, and because Susan scared me half to death about it. Here's my situation. I am male, 5'10", 170 lbs, 33" waist, bodyfat 12%, 53 years old, family history of early heart attacks, but not diabetes. I get A LOT of exercise, and eat about 3200 calories per day just to maintain my weight. I rarely eat read meat. I would guess maybe 75% of my diet is carbohydrates. I drink one glass of red wine, and a quart of skim milk, per day. Cholesterol values: TOT 222 HDL 71 LDL 136 TRI 71 TOT/HDL 3.1 So basically, I need to work on both BG and LDL. But since I'm not in the typical position of needing to lose weight, I don't understand how I deal with the two problems and still get enough calories. I mean, you don't really get any calories from veggies. I don't want to go overboard on protein, and need to keep the fat down because of the LDL, so what kind of carbs do I eat that are low glycemic index - I assume that's what I need to eat because of the BG. Are there not-so-bad carbs in the nature of fruits, bread, ice cream, graham crackers, tortilla chips, chocolate, breakfast cereals, starches, and in general carbs that provide lots of low-fat calories without spiking BG? Oh, and I forgot to mention - I really hate beans. Just detest them. So how do I do this and still get enough calories? Well, you could tell I was a newbie, right? > That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. Hello again. Glad to see I only scared you *half* to death. :-) > Last week I had my first fasting BG level over 110 - it was 114 to > be exact. But two weeks before my non-fasting level was 105, so I > don't know WTF is going on. But I'm here to try to head things off > if I can, and because Susan scared me half to death about it. There you go again! All I did was provide information. Being scared was one of the choices you had. Glad to see it didn't stop you from exploring information. > Here's my situation. I am male, 5'10", 170 lbs, 33" waist, bodyfat > 12%, 53 years old, family history of early heart attacks, but not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > understand how I deal with the two problems and still get enough > calories. I mean, you don't really get any calories from veggies. Fats. Oils, in particular from fatty fish, olives, avocadoes, nuts. Fat cals add up fast. > I don't want to go overboard on protein, and need to keep the fat > down because of the LDL, so what kind of carbs do I eat that are low > glycemic index - I assume that's what I need to eat because of the > BG. Low fat doesn't keep VLDL (the only LDL you need to worry about) down, lower sugar does. LDL isn't bad for you if it isn't small and dense. > Are there not-so-bad carbs in the nature of fruits, bread, ice > cream, graham crackers, tortilla chips, chocolate, breakfast > cereals, starches, and in general carbs that provide lots of low-fat > calories without spiking BG? If you buy a meter like I recommended, you'll know exactly how they effect *your* bg. For the most part, starches aren't a good idea, at least at the beginning, while you work at becoming more insulin sensitive. > Oh, and I forgot to mention - I really hate beans. Just detest > them. I rarely eat beans. > So how do I do this and still get enough calories? > > Well, you could tell I was a newbie, right? Fats. A diabetic's friend. Fat is hormonally neutral, requires no insulin, doesn't raise BG. Red meat is your friend, if it's grass fed, not from a feedlot. Has mostly mono and polyunsaturates, especially if it's well trimmed. Susan Susan says... > There you go again! All I did was provide information. > Being scared was one of the choices you had. Glad to > see it didn't stop you from exploring information. Yeah, sure. I'm not even diagnosed yet, and you've already got me buying a meter. :-) > Fats. Oils, in particular from fatty fish, olives, > avocadoes, nuts. Fat cals add up fast. I already take fish oil caps, but probably not enough, and I eat almonds or walnuts every day, and drink some olive oil straight up. I used to eat peanuts, but read that that they are atherogenic. What's the current thinking on peanuts? >> Are there not-so-bad carbs in the nature of fruits, >> bread, ice cream, graham crackers, tortilla chips, >> chocolate, breakfast cereals, starches, and in general >> carbs that provide lots of low-fat calories without >> spiking BG? > If you buy a meter like I recommended, you'll know > exactly how they effect *your* bg. I have questions about meters, but will ask them in another thread. > For the most part, starches aren't a good idea, at least > at the beginning, while you work at becoming more > insulin sensitive. This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These are the staples of life. > Red meat is your friend, if it's grass fed, not from a > feedlot. Has mostly mono and polyunsaturates, > especially if it's well trimmed. Maybe it was the kind of beef, but when I used to eat red meat every day, my LDL went up even more, and came back down when I went back to chicken. This was mostly beef brisket. With that kind of LDL reaction, in what way would red meat be my friend? > Susan says... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > straight up. I used to eat peanuts, but read that that they > are atherogenic. What's the current thinking on peanuts? Peanuts are controversial depending on who you talk to. Some Drs. are not advising them for anyone because they can contain some kind of mold or mildew that is impossible to get rid of. They are also advised on some weight loss diets. If you're already eating the almonds and walnuts, then you don't need the peanuts. <snip> > > For the most part, starches aren't a good idea, at least > > at the beginning, while you work at becoming more > > insulin sensitive. > > This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These > are the staples of life. For a non-diabetic, yes. Alas, they are carbs and carbs are what raise our BG. Some people find that they do better with the whole grains. For me, potatoes are fine so long as I watch my portion size. Some people find that potatoes spike them so badly they can't even eat one bite. > > Red meat is your friend, if it's grass fed, not from a > > feedlot. Has mostly mono and polyunsaturates, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > With that kind of LDL reaction, in what way would red meat > be my friend? I am not familiar with brisket. Would it be prepared in some way where it would have added carbs? I don't eat a lot of meat, but when I do eat it, it's almost always beef. Either roast beef or hamburger. I am not much of a meat lover at all. Prefer a vegetarian diet, but chronic anemia requires me to eat beef at least once or twice a week.  SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >> Susan says... >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >a meat lover at all. Prefer a vegetarian diet, but chronic anemia requires >me to eat beef at least once or twice a week. If it's similar to the beef brisket I know, it's the rolled-up flap meat. Very fatty. Best cooked as a roast or braised for a very long time. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. || On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:30:37 GMT, "Julie Bove" || <julienospambove@verizon.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] |||| |||| I already take fish oil caps, but probably not enough, and I |||| eat almonds or walnuts every day, and drink some olive oil |||| straight up. I used to eat peanuts, but read that that they |||| are atherogenic. What's the current thinking on peanuts? ||| [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] |||| Maybe it was the kind of beef, but when I used to eat red |||| meat every day, my LDL went up even more, and came back down |||| when I went back to chicken. This was mostly beef brisket. |||| With that kind of LDL reaction, in what way would red meat [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] || rolled-up flap meat. Very fatty. Best cooked as a roast or || braised for a very long time. Smoked brisket is a staple here in Texas. One of my favorites. BJ Signature"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- H. Hubert Humphrey : >I am not familiar with brisket. Would it be prepared in some way where it : >would have added carbs? I don't eat a lot of meat, but when I do eat it, : >it's almost always beef. Either roast beef or hamburger. I am not much of : >a meat lover at all. Prefer a vegetarian diet, but chronic anemia requires : >me to eat beef at least once or twice a week. : If it's similar to the beef brisket I know, it's the : rolled-up flap meat. Very fatty. Best cooked as a roast or : braised for a very long time. : Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Brisket is a fatty cut of breast meat. Here, in the US, the first cut is the leaner part and the second sut is swimmingly fatty. both cust must be pot poasted or braised for a long time to get tender. It is a cut often used in making the best corned beef (silversides) and is use din Texas barbeque, cooked for a long time over a smoky fire. It is stringy and must be cut assross the grain or you just have long strings of meat. When prepred properly it can be a delicious meat. I have a great fmily recipe tht i make only 2 ime s ayer for holidays, as it is such a rich cut of meat. Lean cuts tht cn be dry roasted or broiled or grilled are your best bets. many of the very lean suts can be lovely prepared fat free,. Shoulder steak can be broiled and gives a beefy tsting met that may be tougher than the fatty cuts like sirloin, rib or poterhouse steaks. I use tis same cut for a roast beef. There are the various round cuts, like top round, bottom tound and silver tip which are also lean. If u like hamburger or chopped meat, generlly, it may pay to buy some very lean roast and grind it yourself, as the pre-choped meats are often quite fatty. I know that the cuts have different names in different parts of the world, so I cannot "translate" for you except for the "silversides." Although the lean cuts are healthier as the saturalted ft is lessened, I understand that the meat itself may have some chloresterol problems, but of a lesser degree. I have no sources for this last item other than a diatician many yers ago. Wendy > This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These > are the staples of life. I worked with my dietitian for the first 6 months to the T. after that I was able to get off all medications and lost a lot of wieght. i ate all those things with no problem. some people like to push their diet on others. when you learn as much as i have about them they are the most unhealthy group i have ever met. that is not an insult it is the truth - but youll have to stay here 3 years to find out all that is wrong with them. why do you need to know this? because all of their physical and mental problems effect how and what they can do with their diabetes - they should not compare themselves to someone who is just diabetic and much younger. i say work with a your doctor and dietiitan. i now can handle more carbs than anyone here and i dont take any medications. my cholesterol is better than anyone here - even if they take their damn meds. to me it looks like i did the most to turn myself around. but they started with how bad my advice was. i look at is this way - you can run from carbs or you can fight for the right to eat them. when i said look into red meat - it really depends on your life style. body builders eat a lot and I wouldnt think it was unhealthy for them. they require the vitamins that red meat has. i wouldnt want to see the average diabetic eat as much as a body builder does. i have yet to find anyone that knows as much as a real dietitian. hell even Alton Brown is smarter than any diabetic i ever met. me - i dropped out of school at a very young age to work - but when I want to learn about something I learn. and i have learned to take care of my diabetes. i suggest you do your own research while working with real experts that know enough to get a license. good luck. - o sorry for sounding so mean but i see no reason to sugar coat things when talking about them and they feel the same when talking about me. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html | > This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These | > are the staples of life. | | I worked with my dietitian for the first 6 months to the T. Really? LOL wasn't it you who admitted it was YOUR wifes dietician and not yours... Oh brother.. thank GOD for archieves! RK, t1 <useless drivel deleted> > Susan says... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yeah, sure. I'm not even diagnosed yet, and you've already > got me buying a meter. :-) That's how a lot of us first get diagnosed. But seriuously, you have no reason to believe you're diabetic, but good evidence that you may have IGT. That info can lead to excellent prevention opportunities. > > Fats. Oils, in particular from fatty fish, olives, > > avocadoes, nuts. Fat cals add up fast. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > straight up. I used to eat peanuts, but read that that they > are atherogenic. What's the current thinking on peanuts? Varied. Lectins have been studied and implicated in promotion of atherosclerosis. Many of us opt for almond or even macadamia butters instead. Peanuts aren't real nuts, anyhoo, they're just pretending. :-) > >> Are there not-so-bad carbs in the nature of fruits, > >> bread, ice cream, graham crackers, tortilla chips, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have questions about meters, but will ask them in another > thread. Otay. > > For the most part, starches aren't a good idea, at least > > at the beginning, while you work at becoming more > > insulin sensitive. > > This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These > are the staples of life. Not really. They're the non-essentials, biologically speaking. Humans need proteins and essential fats. Certain carbs can be healthy, but starches have very little nutrition bang for the calorie relative to veggies and fruits. And they're not good for those of us with IGT or DM. Pure sugar once they hit the bloodstream. > > Red meat is your friend, if it's grass fed, not from a > > feedlot. Has mostly mono and polyunsaturates, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > With that kind of LDL reaction, in what way would red meat > be my friend? You may be focusing too much on LDL instead of particle size. Given your very low TGL and very high HDL (IIRC), your's should be the non damaging kind. Nothing wrong with not eating red meat, if you'd rather not, though, but grass fed is much better, lipid wise than feedlot/supermarket beef. Glad to see you asking so many good questions. Susan >> This would include wheat, potatoes, corn and rice? These >> are the staples of life. > > Not really. They're the non-essentials, biologically speaking. Humans > need proteins and essential fats. look at the nutritional lable of whole grains. :) - they have protien. meats and other high fat foods are not the only thing that contain protien. as far as essential fats one does not have to go low carb to get them. even the worlds biggest body builders dont need more than 25 grams of protien per meal anything more than that is too much. the same for carbs or anything else too much is simply too much. its a lot easier to get your fiber from whole grains. any idea how much brocolli you would have to eat to match the fiber in 1 serving of bran cereal? Certain carbs can be healthy, but > starches have very little nutrition bang for the calorie relative to > veggies and fruits. no need to stop eating them on a low fat diet. but it does make a good selling point even tho it holds no value as being truthful - in choosing the right diet for you. the big difference between the diets is the amount of fat one eats. take chicken breast for example - think of how much fat and cholesterol you think it has - now look it up for yourself. yep they are going to say their diet is not high in fat but take what they really eat and show it to your doctor. i dont really care what diet you choose i just want you to know the truth before you make up your mind. and this is not only for you but any other diabetic that comes here. And they're not good for those of us with IGT or > DM. Pure sugar once they hit the bloodstream. she compared fruits and veggies to whole grains. take a look at the sugar content of those fruits you like to eat and also the veggies - now compare that to whole grains. they will bring up low carb veggies and fruits but no need to stop eating them no matter what diet you choose. that is why i feel most of their talk is double talk. red meats are pretty fantastic foods for bodybuilders and those that exercise ALOT. but no need for myself at this point to eat it more than once or twice a week. in the summer i have no problem with going low carb on sundays when i throw a rack of ribs and the BBQ. do your own research learn the truth. you should not follow anything i say or anything anyone else here says blindly. do your own research and work with professionals. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html > Susan says... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > eat almonds or walnuts every day, and drink some olive oil > straight up. I had to come back this was on my mind. its important for any diabetic to find what diet keeps them the healthiest. Some are healthier on low fat others im sure will do better on higher fat diets. I dont know how good of an idea it is to combine the 2. try to find one way or the other that works best for you. on a low fat diet 6 almonds might be what a dietitian would recommend for you as a serving of fat per meal. yes there are many others. in the begining a dietitian may just tell you to keep an eye on your carbs for me that is 200 a day and just eat what ever you are eating.. taking 1 step at a time to a healthier you. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html > I had to come back this was on my mind. > its important for any diabetic to find what diet keeps them the > healthiest. Some are healthier on low fat others im sure will do > better on higher fat diets. > I dont know how good of an idea it is to combine the 2. How can anyone combine low fat and hight fat? Moron. Perhaps you meant low cholesterol/trans fats but not low good fats. Isn't it about time you researched the benefits of good fats? And why you should have a little more of them rather than less? And if you do advise going low fat, can you guarantee that the person you are advising can handle the higher carbs one would need if they were eating low fat? If not, shut up. Back up your statements and don't forget that little YMMV when talking about carb limits. Remember to talk about the risk of high triglycerides if advising one of higher carb. Not to mention the risk of taking in trans fats when eating more rather than less carbohydrate foods of a certain kind. LOL that's okay Jan, he's back touting how he spent time with "HIS" dietician when he finally admitted before he never had one, he just went with his wife. Sadly Tom wouldn't know "healthy" if it bit him in his a.s! RK, t1 | > I had to come back this was on my mind. | > its important for any diabetic to find what diet keeps [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] | when eating more rather than less carbohydrate foods of a | certain kind. > Susan says... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yeah, sure. I'm not even diagnosed yet, and you've already > got me buying a meter. :-) Well, if you'd like to *keep* it that way, then a meter can be an invaluable tool. Priscilla >Yeah, sure. I'm not even diagnosed yet, and you've already >got me buying a meter. :-) Buying it, and using it as advised in Jennifer's testing advice, may mean that you never will be. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. > > Last week I had my first fasting BG level over 110 - it was 114 to > be exact. But two weeks before my non-fasting level was 105, so I > don't know WTF is going on. But I'm here to try to head things off > if I can, and because Susan scared me half to death about it. This is no biggie at all! Those numbers are all very close and well within the range of a meter variance. Meters are not 100% accurate. Your BG will change from minute to minute throughout the day. > Here's my situation. I am male, 5'10", 170 lbs, 33" waist, bodyfat > 12%, 53 years old, family history of early heart attacks, but not [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > cereals, starches, and in general carbs that provide lots of low-fat > calories without spiking BG? All carbs raise BG. And you don't necessarily want to go low fat. There are good fats and bad fats. Good fats are things like olives, olive oil, nuts, and avocados. Avocados are recommended for people who need to gain weight because they are very calorie dense. > Oh, and I forgot to mention - I really hate beans. Just detest > them. > > So how do I do this and still get enough calories? > > Well, you could tell I was a newbie, right? You do not say whether you are type 1 or type 2 and what (if any) meds you are on. And do you have some other medical problem such as thyroid that would make it difficult for you to gain weight? Have you seen a dietician? A dietician would be able to give you good suggestions for this. Sorry I can't help you more. I spent the younger part of my life trying to gain weight. Was never able to do it. Now I am overweight and it's next to impossible to take the weight off. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm Julie Bove says... > This is no biggie at all! Those numbers are all very > close and well within the range of a meter variance. > Meters are not 100% accurate. Your BG will change from > minute to minute throughout the day. No, these readings weren't from a meter. These were lab tests from drawn blood. But to your point, I'm still holding out hope that this was just a fluke, and that I'm not diabetic or even headed that way. But my doctor wasn't happy about the 114. Neither was Susan. :-) > All carbs raise BG. So this whole thing about glycemic index is wrong? > And you don't necessarily want to go low fat. There are > good fats and bad fats. Good fats are things like > olives, olive oil, nuts, and avocados. How about peanuts? > Avocados are recommended for people who need to gain > weight because they are very calorie dense. Sorry, I just can't handle avocados. > You do not say whether you are type 1 or type 2 and what > (if any) meds you are on. Neither, and none. I just had one lab test with a bad number. But with my family history, the high LDL, and hypertension, I just need to watch things like this. > Julie Bove says... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not diabetic or even headed that way. But my doctor wasn't > happy about the 114. Neither was Susan. :-) Um... And how do you think the lab tested the blood? They would have to use a meter. And they use the same kind of meters we do. Whether Susan is happy with the 114 or not doesn't matter to me at all. I wouldn't worry at all at seeing 114 once. Then again, I've been diagnosed with diabetes. Of course the elevated number should send alarm bells off in your head. You need the diagnosis and you need the meter so you can start doing something about this. What the 114 is telling me is that unless you are on an extreme low carb diet, you are probably spiking to much higher numbers after eating. And this is something you don't want. > > All carbs raise BG. > > So this whole thing about glycemic index is wrong? According to some, yes. Reason being, the glycemic index is based on single foods. Once you start combining foods in a meal, the glycemic index is meaningless. What you ate at your prior meal or snack factors in there too. Some people swear by the glycemic index. Doesn't do a thing for me! In fact I usually find that the opposite of what it says is true for me. White bread works better for me than whole wheat. Ditto for pasta. Potatoes work well for me. I've seen three dieticians and none placed any value whatever on the GI. Now if you get a meter and find that the GI works for you, then go for it. But keep in mind that the GI does not tell you that there are certain carby foods that will not raise your BG. As I said before, all carbs will raise your BG. That's why you have to make meal and snack choices carefully. > > And you don't necessarily want to go low fat. There are > > good fats and bad fats. Good fats are things like > > olives, olive oil, nuts, and avocados. > > How about peanuts? Personally, I have no problems with peanuts. But as I said in the other reply, some people avoid them. > > Avocados are recommended for people who need to gain > > weight because they are very calorie dense. > > Sorry, I just can't handle avocados. Me either. I think they're probably one of the most disgusting foods on the face of the earth. Right up there with liver, broccoli, asparagus and peaches. Blech! > > You do not say whether you are type 1 or type 2 and what > > (if any) meds you are on. > > Neither, and none. I just had one lab test with a bad > number. But with my family history, the high LDL, and > hypertension, I just need to watch things like this. I see. Well, if you got a fasting number of 114, I'd say you need to take action rather than watch things. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >>Julie Bove says... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > use a meter. And they use the same kind of meters we do. Whether Susan is > happy with the 114 or not doesn't matter to me at all. His doctor was concerned about it, too. I simply said his lipids looked great, but that he should investigate the BG further, given a high incidence of CVD in his family. No diagnosis made or offered by me. Susan > No, these readings weren't from a meter. These were lab > tests from drawn blood. But to your point, I'm still > holding out hope that this was just a fluke, and that I'm > not diabetic or even headed that way. But my doctor wasn't > happy about the 114. Neither was Susan. :-) :-) Your doctor was more alert than most. Be grateful for that. > > All carbs raise BG. > > So this whole thing about glycemic index is wrong? Yes, pretty much it's an individual thing, and quantity matters, as does quality. GL is more relevent, the effect of a mixed meal, but your own bg is the most important measure of all. > > You do not say whether you are type 1 or type 2 and what > > (if any) meds you are on. > > Neither, and none. I just had one lab test with a bad > number. But with my family history, the high LDL, and > hypertension, I just need to watch things like this. Good idea. Susan This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:14:21 GMT, "Julie Bove" <julienospambove@verizon.net> wrote: >Avocados are recommended for people who need to gain >weight because they are very calorie dense. G'day G'day Julie, The people who made such recommendations would be wrong. Avocados are LESS calorie dense than bread. Water provides zero calories and avocados are 75% water. Any fat-water mixture that has more than 56% water will always have fewer calories per 100 grams than carbohydrate. Avocados have about 160 kcal/100grams whilst ALL breads that I have seen listed have 220 kcal/100grams or MORE ... sometimes considerably more. I'm sure many will remember the couple who asked me for advice on losing weight. I recommended have had an avocado for lunch, meaning that they should share one. To my surprise and ultimate learning benefit, I discovered when I had lunch with them that they had one each and had done so daily while losing one kilo plus per week. They had no bread with any meals but have since added ryvita, whole grain rye wafers. She ultimately lost 42 kg and has kept it off for about four years. Amazingly he complexion and figure is more of that of a teenager. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > This post not CC'd by email > On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:14:21 GMT, "Julie Bove" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > four years. Amazingly he complexion and figure is more of that of a > teenager. Ah, phooey! Wrong again. But I have seen that touted for weight gain many times. My daughter's pediatrician even recommended it to me as one of her first foods in the hopes of getting her to gain weight. She was very underweight up until almost a year old. Now she's gone too far the other way. But she still doesn't like avocados. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 07:24:13 GMT, "Julie Bove" <julienospambove@verizon.net> wrote: >Ah, phooey! Wrong again. Or could that be wronged again? G'day G'day Julie, > But I have seen that touted for weight gain many >times. My daughter's pediatrician even recommended it to me as one of her >first foods in the hopes of getting her to gain weight. As I suspected you were repeating what an "authority" had told you. Shows how few of them actually read the USDA database for factual information. >She was very underweight up until almost a year old. >Now she's gone too far the other way. This isn't too surprising a sequence. When you say she was underweight up until almost a year old I hope it isn't too great an assumption to suggest that perhaps she was under weight at birth. If so then what I am about to say will be relevant. If not it won't. When an embryo is under weight it allows the division of fat cells around the vital organs ie in the abdominal cavity to continue further than usual. This means a baby that is underweight at birth is likely to have more than it's fair share of fat cells and hence to become overweight when exposed to a plentiful food supply later in life. > But she still doesn't like avocados. I really don't know if that is environment or genetics. I gather you detest them. Broccoli is more easily understood. Some people have genes that give them many times the number of receptors for bitterness than those who don't have the gene. Put simply broccoli will taste bitter to these people. Peaches ... there you really have me going. I couldn't imagine anyone who didn't like peaches. I still find it hard to comprehend. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin || Peaches ... there you really have me going. I couldn't || imagine anyone || who didn't like peaches. I still find it hard to comprehend. only someone that has only had those sliced things that come in a can with syurp. :-) BJ Signature"The leading cause of death among fashion models is falling through street grates." -- Dave Barry > || Peaches ... there you really have me going. I couldn't > || imagine anyone > || who didn't like peaches. I still find it hard to comprehend. > > only someone that has only had those sliced things that come > in a can with syurp. :-) The first peach I ever had came right off the tree at an orchard. I was maybe three years old. I didn't know what it was except that it was orange. So I thought it was some kind of weird orange. I remember bursting into tears as I bit into it from feeling the fuzz on my tongue. When I went home, I cried to my parents that my friend's grandpa tried to make me eat a furry orange. Luckily they knew that grandpa had a peach orchard. So they knew what it was. They told me that peaches were good. So they gave me a peeled and cut up one to eat. That didn't go over any better. Something about the combination of the texture and the sweetness. I can't stand any kind of fruit that is overly sweet. Canned peaches are another matter. If once touches my tongue, I immediately gag on it. My husband and daughter can't stand peaches either. Oddly, my brother loves them. As a child, he couldn't get enough of them. He'd eat them all the way down to the pit, then keep the pit in his mouth all day so he could chew on it. SignatureSee my webpage: http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm >Canned peaches are another matter. If once touches my tongue, I immediately >gag on it. My husband and daughter can't stand peaches either. Oddly, my >brother loves them. Julie, in the nicest possible way, may I suggest that it's not your brother that's odd in this case. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html > That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > diabetes. I get A LOT of exercise, and eat about 3200 calories per > day just to maintain my weight. I rarely eat read meat. if you exercise enough to eat 3200 calories you might look into some of the benefits of eating red meat - for someone with your life style. make nots of your blood sugar levels and see a dietitian to get the most of what you are doing. total health is good nutrtion and exercise. the ADA now says that your total cholesterol should be below 140. being you get your info from susan i doubt you will be into the ADA. if not let me know and i will gladly point you to what they say about cholesterol. looking at your post ide say you on your way to great health. you just need the right information. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html I just wanted to correct myself on what I said about cholesterol. I was wrong with the 140 - if you want to read more.. read my thread on "updated guidelines for treating diabetes" SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html > the ADA now says that your total cholesterol should be below 140. > being you get your info from susan i doubt you will be into the ADA. > if not let me know and i will gladly point you to what they say about > cholesterol. > looking at your post ide say you on your way to great health. > you just need the right information. Thomas Muffaletto says... > if you exercise enough to eat 3200 calories you might > look into some of the benefits of eating red meat - for > someone with your life style. I don't understand this. Everything I've heard before suggested that red meat had no benefits. > being you get your info from susan i doubt you will be > into the ADA. Since I'm new here, and know very little about this subject, it would help me to assess what I read if I understand what preconceptions people may be operating from. And I detect from your comment that there may be not be total unanimity of opinion here on certain things. Can you, very diplomatically, tell me what the major schools of thought are here that I should know about? > if not let me know and i will gladly point you to what > they say about cholesterol. Thanks. I'd like to know what they say. >I detect >from your comment that there may be not be total unanimity >of opinion here on certain things. Can you, very >diplomatically, tell me what the major schools of thought >are here that I should know about? I'll try, although I'm not Tom. He will let you know if I stray from impartiality. I'll try to keep it unbiased. The range of views range from unquestioning belief in revered authority, such as the ADA or NHS and the medical professionals such as doctors and dieticians, to advocates of weird herbal cures, magnets and bloodletting. Between those extremes, the majority appear to be interested in finding out as much about their variant of diabetes as possible in an attempt to improve their control over their own progression. A significant number advocate planned BG testing to discover their own body's response to foods, with subsequent dietary modification to improve control. That method can be seen in detail at http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm Some others follow methods proposed by various writers such as Bernstein, or follow the guidance of some excellent writers on diabetes such as Becker or Mendosa. And many of us pick and choose from the best of all of the above. In my own case, I am a passionate advocate of http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm but I also read as much as I can absorb from every source and then pass it through the filter of my own reason and common sense. Now you'll just have to read that link to see what I'm talking about:-) PS. You asked some questions about food. For future reference, two names stand out - read anything Quentin or Annette say on that subject. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. Can you, very > diplomatically, Sure.. I dont insult until insulted and even then most of the time i ignore it. >tell me what the major schools of thought > are here that I should know about? for the most part if you are not low carb you are made to feel unwelcome here. they will say it isnt so. it is. lots of newbies leave after these people here carry on about how wrong their doctor is if he/she does not give that newbie low carb. i was told the very same things when i first came here. and when i seen that they could not understand that i was not going to give up my doctors advice for strangers in a news group - that was my first sign that these are people that lack the power of reason. mind you i was labled a troll on the 3rd day i was here and i never insulted anyone up until that point. on the 5th day a very well liked by these people made a joking post about me dieing and that they hope the ADA pays for my funeral. any nasty post I made was after that post and some of my posts were very nasty and till this day they use them against me. I will not leave - because i feel newbies like you need to see that not all diabetics think like them and not all have to go on low carb diets and not all of us want to take cholesterol lowering medications. this is an unmoderated group and being annoying is a weapon they use to keep it of 1 mind sort. it will take more than a secret hand shake to get me to shut up. my advice to you unless you want to go low carb is to work with a dietitian. > > if not let me know and i will gladly point you to what > > they say about cholesterol. > > Thanks. I'd like to know what they say. lol tell you the truth I don't know if I was talking about the ADA or these clowns. but most that are here for 3 years or maybe even less take cholesterol medications. ok ok so they will say all the eggs and fat they eat has nothing to do with it. now I know some people can not help having high cholesterol but come on ALL OF THEM. LOL. when I first came here I was told they went low carb so they didn't have to take meds for diabetes. I later found out that was a lie - most if not all take some kind of med for their diabetes. then I was told that they go low carb cause the diet the ADA recommends will raise their cholesterol. I later found out that was a lie - most after 3 years or sooner take meds for their cholesterol. not to mention the lies about gaining wait when working with dietitians. I really feel some here are low carb spammers that recommends books all over the internet and the rest are just mindless sheep. I wish you will power - knowledge and luck no matter what you choose. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html Thomas Muffaletto says... > for the most part if you are not low carb you are made > to feel unwelcome here. they will say it isnt so. it > is. lots of newbies leave after these people here carry > on about how wrong their doctor is if he/she does not > give that newbie low carb. I know what low-carb is from all the discussion on Atkins. But I'm not clear what the alternative is - what my doctor and dietitian are gonna tell me. I went to the diabetes.org website, and it's the kind of site where the really useful, detailed information must be on the very next link, but when you get there, there's no information there either. Are we basically talking about a balanced diet, with carbs being the complex variety as much as possible? I guess I was hoping for a list of things to eat, and things not to eat, but I'm not gonna find that, am I? And even if I do, I would still need to test to see what actually works for me and what doesn't. Well thanks for telling me how the armies are laid out here, or at least your version of it. I hope he can all get along. > I know what low-carb is from all the discussion on Atkins. There are many more low carb philosophies than Atkins, and I doubt that many here will blindly preach that Atkins is a nirvana for diabetics, although there is some good information to be gleaned from his approach. > But I'm not clear what the alternative is - what my doctor > and dietitian are gonna tell me. It is likely that your dietitian will recommend the canned, one-size-fits-all 1800 cal diet that used to be called the ADA diet. This is somewhere around 60% carb, 25-30% fat, and 10-15% protein. Many of us here believe that a proper diabetic diet differs for everyone, and that learning how to measure the BG results from different meals will teach us how to make adjustments to our diets that will result in tight BG control. In general, most espouse a reduction in carbs from the 60% number to attain this. I went to the diabetes.org > website, and it's the kind of site where the really useful, > detailed information must be on the very next link, but when > you get there, there's no information there either. An astute observation. > Are we basically talking about a balanced diet, with carbs > being the complex variety as much as possible? I think most will recommend as balanced a diet as possible while still maintaining glycemic control, eating whole, fresh foods and avoiding processed stuff. Eat your carbs as complex grains, legumes, and fresh green vegetables; and avoid sugar, bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, etc., except in small quantities. > I guess I was hoping for a list of things to eat, and things > not to eat, but I'm not gonna find that, am I? And even if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > or at least your version of it. I hope he can all get > along. Being diabetic is completely about timing. Much of your successes and failures with meals will be related to how far along the diabetes progression you are at diagnosis. This has a great impact on your ability to eat carbs without major spikes. In addition, don't expect instantaneous results. A meal that spikes you today, shortly after diagnosis, will become acceptable after you have gained control for a while. Eventually, you will be able to eat the things you like if you are willing to limit serving size. You have guessed correctly that nobody in this newsgroup, nor your dietitian, nor your doctor, can tell you how your body will react to meals. You have to use your meter to tell you how you did. Keep your meter happy, and you will limit to the greatest extent possible the eventual diabetic complications that could make your life miserable. This newsgroup maintains a website at http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/ that you may find useful. There is also a website at http://www.disbetic-talk.org/ that is maintained for our chatroom on Undernet. I hope that they give you better and more immediate information than the ADA site did. Jim I went to the diabetes.org > website, and it's the kind of site where the really useful, > detailed information must be on the very next link, but when > you get there, there's no information there either. just wondering if you mean www.diabetes.org or http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/ if you think www.diabetes.org does not have much information you will probably love this link http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/ its the site this group has created. tell me what information you want and i will show you the page with that info from the www.diabetes.org web site. on the American Diabetes Associations web site there is a search box on the upper right. type in what you want to find and if its diabetes related you will get information on many of the studies there millions of dollars have paid for. i think the supported 40 million dollars in research for 2005 alone. > Are we basically talking about a balanced diet, with carbs > being the complex variety as much as possible? not as much as possible about the same amount as any veggie low carb or things like carrots ( higher carb) your diet will change depending upon your wants, needs and what ever it takes to improve the chances of you becoming healthier. SignatureTom Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow ADA's Diabetes Learning Center http://www.diabetes.org/all-about-diabetes/chan_eng/channel.htm Information you can trust from the diabetes experts... Your American Diabetes Association http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies. http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html >I went to the diabetes.org >website, and it's the kind of site where the really useful, >detailed information must be on the very next link, but when >you get there, there's no information there either. You are obviously very wise. I think you will do well here. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. if ya want help... honest help.. Listen to Quentin, Alan, Julie, Mack... Wendy, Colleen and a cpl other that slip my mind atm... Listening to Tom, will just get you a fast diagnosis... RK, t1... | Thomas Muffaletto says... | [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | | Thanks. I'd like to know what they say. This post not CC'd by email On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:49:37 -0500, Peabody <waybackKILLSPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: >That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. > >Last week I had my first fasting BG level over 110 - it was 114 to >be exact. But two weeks before my non-fasting level was 105, so I >don't know WTF is going on. But I'm here to try to head things off >if I can, and because Susan scared me half to death about it. G'day G'day Peabody, Firstly welcome. Hope that collectively we can provide you with information that is sufficiently coherent to be comprehensible. Please bare in mind that none of us are doctors. At best we can provide information based on our own experience, what we have read or which authorities we believe have got it right. Secondly. We don't deal in diagnosis. If we did we would adopt the same cautious approach that the medical profession to do diagnosis. For instance it takes TWO fasting blood glucose readings of 126 mg/dL = 7.0 mmol/L to confirm a diagnosis of diabetes. My point is even a diagnosis of impaired glucose tolerance requires two tests if one uses fasting blood glucose as a criterion. >Here's my situation. I am male, 5'10", 170 lbs, 33" waist, bodyfat >12%, 53 years old, family history of early heart attacks, but not >diabetes. I get A LOT of exercise, and eat about 3200 calories per >day just to maintain my weight. FWIIW, one website I read comparing French and USA adult calorie intakes put the USA average at 3640 kcal per day. With a good percentage of folks on hypocaloric diets how much those who aren't dieting are eating doesn't bare thinking about. >I rarely eat read meat. That won't change calorie intake much if you eat lean meat. Somewhere I read you ate brisket. Brisket as sold here is anything but lean. >I would guess maybe 75% of my diet is carbohydrates. It may seem like a silly question how is that 75% referenced. Are you, A. eating about 75% of foods by designation ie that is 75 of the foods you eat are what people think of as "carbs". You know the sort of thing. Meat = protein. Bread = carbs. B. Eating about 75% of carbs by WEIGHT having obtained this result by putting a day's menu into number crunching software. C. Eating about 75% of carbs by Calories having obtained this result by putting a day's menu into number crunching software. D. Something I haven't thought of yet which you can explain. >I drink one glass of red wine, and a quart of skim milk, per day. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >TRI 71 >TOT/HDL 3.1 The number are internally consistent. >So basically, I need to work on both BG and LDL. Your BG probably does. If I've read you correctly this needs confirming. The LDL is more interesting. I take it you wish to get under the LDL level of 100 mg/dL recommended for diabetics and those who have a confirmed history of coronary heart disease. >But since I'm not >in the typical position of needing to lose weight, I don't >understand how I deal with the two problems and still get enough >calories. >I mean, you don't really get any calories from veggies. I'll forgive a little hyperbole. One can get calories from vegetables even if in general the more variety we have of vegetables the more we eat and the less we eat of calorie dense foods. Vegetables tend to have a high water content so contribute favourably to satiety and are lower calorie to boot. >I don't want to go overboard on protein, Opinions vary one what going overboard might be. If you were getting 75% of calories from carbohydrate then that leaves only 25% to get from protein, fat and alcohol. Let's say you are typical and get 15% of calories from protein then somehow you have cut your fat intake to 10%. That would be a neat trick if you could manage it. If you raise protein levels over 20% of calories it makes sense to get it from a mixture of animal and vegetable sources. >and need to keep the fat down because of the LDL, Saturated fats and trans fats raise LDL. Polyunsaturated fats, PUFAs won't raise LDL, in fact they may well lower it. The catch with PUFAs is that they are vulnerable to oxidation and that leads to the nice large fluffy relatively harmless LDL turning into the small dense nasty stuff. Put simply risk isn't simply a matter of the LDL level but also its composition. The safest fats are monounsaturated fats. The best sources are macadamias, avocados, olives, almonds. >so what kind of carbs do I eat that are low glycemic index - I assume > that's what I need to eat because of the BG. For many people it helps to eat low gi food. For some it doesn't. Think of published glycemic indices as a starting point and feedback from your meter as personal confirmation. Rather that suggest items eg pearl barley, channa dahl may I suggest you look up Mendosa's GI list. Food is so much a matter of personal preference ... along with gentle evolution. http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm >Are there not-so-bad carbs in the nature of fruits, Not all fruit will have their glycemic indices listed as their carb content is too low to make measurement practical. Try berries, stone fruit, apples, pears. >bread, ice cream, graham crackers, Most breads have starches that convert rapidly to glucose. Exceptions are those that have be SLOW fermented and SLOWLY cooled after baking. Don't expect these characteristics from a cut price bakery. >tortilla chips, You might try coarse cornmeal instead. >chocolate, You might try chocolates that is about 70% cocoa solids. > breakfast cereals, >starches, You might try Basmati or Doongara rice or a rice/pearl barley mix. >and in general carbs that provide lots of low-fat >calories without spiking BG? > >Oh, and I forgot to mention - I really hate beans. Just detest >them. Not really a problem though they are a good source of folate and you have mentioned a family history of coronary heart disease. Folate or folic acid is required to lower the levels of homocysteine, an amino acid intermediate that accumulates to dangerous levels in the absence of folate, B6 and B12. >So how do I do this and still get enough calories? Safe fats, blended protein and low glycemic index carbs. A combined approach has the common sense virtue of making the dietary intake of vitamins and minerals. >Well, you could tell I was a newbie, right? Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin Quentin Grady says... > G'day G'day Peabody, G'day Mate. > Firstly welcome. Hope that collectively we can provide > you with information that is sufficiently coherent to be > comprehensible. Please bare in mind that none of us are > doctors. But, does anyone play one on TV? >> I would guess maybe 75% of my diet is carbohydrates. > It may seem like a silly question how is that 75% > referenced. That is a fuzzy number, I admit, and I may be remembering it wrong. I've lost the data, but it was a year ago, and it comes from totaling up everything I eat in a typical day, and converting the grams to calories based on labels and other nutitional sources, and actually weighing things. I was, and still am, on a low-fat diet for LDL purposes, which also tended to reduce the amount of protein I ate since the two often go together. And my memory now is that the diet was overwhelmingly carbohydrates. Maybe not 75%, but a lot. And there was no attempt to select complex carbs. In the end, that diet probably isn't good even for LDL, which means I didn't do my homework. Thanks very much for the specific food suggestions, and the GI link. This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:07:53 -0500, Peabody <waybackKILLSPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> I would guess maybe 75% of my diet is carbohydrates. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >end, that diet probably isn't good even for LDL, which means >I didn't do my homework. G'day G'day, On reflection I had wondered if yo had a book by Pritikin or a similar advocate of ultra low fat diets and had used their recipes extensively. They manage something in the region of 70%+ carbs by weight. The only culture I know of that HAD an 80% by calories intake was the folks in Okinawa BEFORE they became renowned for their longevity. At the time their longevity wasn't remarkable. The Tarahumara Indians famous for their ultra long distance running inhabit the Copper Canyon, as it is known in the U.S., or the Sierra Tarahumara in northwest Mexico. They had an ultra high carb diet. Strangely enough this was "emulated" by those who wished lower cholesterol. I say emulated for the US version used oats and the Tarahumara probably never saw an oat in their lives, eating largely corn meal and beans. The point is they were NOT a model for longevity. My point is the folks renowned for longevity have higher levels of protein OR suitable lipids. The bottom line is, "Why do you want to control fasting blood glucose and LDL etc?" Does it have something to do with enjoying a long life? If it does then their are lessons to be learnt from the folks who lived on Crete and Okinawa. The Okinawans had about 22% protein, 23% fat and 55% carbohydrate by weight. The protein was roughly fifty:fifty animal:vegetable sourced. Roughly speaking they had 100 grams each of pork, seafood and firm tofu per day. The firm tofu was set with magnesium chloride not sodium chloride. The profile of fatty acids was not exceptional being roughly equivalent to free range chicken. The people on Crete achieve notoriety for having 40% of calories from fat, mostly olives but also almonds, walnuts, a salad vegetable called pursalane and fish. They ate significantly more vegetables than their neighbours in Italy who didn't enjoy such a low coronary heart disease rate. They prided themselves in preferring wild vegetables which they referred to as "horta". These had much higher levels of bioflavonoids etc than their domesticated relatives. Protein came from sheep and goat cheese, fish, lamb and goat meat. Put simply there is no particular reason to think something terrible will happen if one changes from an ULTRA high carb diet to one higher in protein and fats if these are chosen wisely. Best wishes, SignatureQuentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin > That may sound like a stupid question, but I don't think it is. > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Well, you could tell I was a newbie, right? You might still be 20 lbs heavier than optimal. I personally invite you and all other ASD participants to an on-line chat where one of the topics covered will be diabetes: http://www.OurMableton.net/ParadiseChat Hope to see you in Paradise this Thursday from 6-7 pm EST :-) In Christ's love and service now and forevermore, Andrew -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist ** Suggested Reading: (1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?G1D5217EA (2) http://makeashorterlink.com/?W13A4250B (3) http://makeashorterlink.com/?X1C62661A (4) http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A (5) http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A (6) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I24E5151A (7) http://makeashorterlink.com/?I22222129 > Here's my situation. I am male, 5'10", 170 lbs, 33" waist, bodyfat > 12%, 53 years old, family history of early heart attacks, but not [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > So how do I do this and still get enough calories? What you need to do is test everything you like at different times of the day to see what it does to your BG. http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm Don't think because something is low fat that it automatically means it's good for you. Transfats are one thing you want to avoid as much as possible, the ingredient list will say hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils, they are bad for cholesterol. Of the polyunsaturated fats, people usually get too much omega 6 and not enough omega 3, find omega 3 in oily fish, walnuts, flaxseed, and now some eggs and margarines. Vegetable oils have a lot of omega 6. Monounsaturated fats (omega 9) are also good for cholesterol and can be substituted for some of your carbs, olives, avocados, macadamias, almonds, etc. are good sources. Just like the unsaturated fats, there are different saturated fats, free range fed meat has a better fatty acid profile than feed lot fed meat. There are lower sugar versions of a lot of things and lower carb versions of some things. Berries are lower carb than bananas and Lindt makes 70% and 85% cocoa dark chocolate, for ex. Whole grain is better than white flour but it may or may not make a lot of difference to your BG. Oat bran and psyllium are good for your cholesterol. If you eat cereal at breakfast and it spikes your BG, though, it could be taxing your pancreas even if it lowers your cholesterol. You seem to have a good HDL/cholesterol ratio but lowering your LDL could make it better. Your triglyceride/HDL ratio suggests your insulin resistance is not too bad and you aren't overweight, so metformin may not be much help. Developing diabetes seems to raise triglycerides and lower HDL, worsening that ratio, so that is the one you want to keep from getting worse by cutting back on fast carb. When you say your diet is 75% carbs, do you mean by percentage of calories? If so, you aren't getting enough protein or fat. Joslin recommends 20-30% of calories from protein and 30-35% from fat. They are mainly talking about people who need to lose weight. http://joslin.org/Files/Nutrition_ClinGuide.pdf With something like Fitday.com you can plug in what you eat and see where you stand on vitamins, minerals, fiber, plus fat, protein, and carbs. Sometimes the first symptom of diabetes is a fatal heart attack. Some doctors don't want to diagnose it until you go blind or have numb feet. You may have it in your family and not know it because they were never diagnosed. My husband was diagnosed with diabetes with FBG <110 because his A1c was >6, he can spike over 200 if he eats the wrong things, which fits the definition of diabetes. He doesn't know anyone among his blood relatives that have ever had diabetes, either. Have you had an A1c yet? SignatureNo Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. I think at this point I need to do a lot of homework to figure out where I go from here. I think I'll get the Relion meter and see what it shows. There are a few points I want to ask about from some of your posts, so in no particular order, here they are: 1. I'm being tested for FBG again in about three weeks. Should I request the A1c test as well? 2. I see references to a standard 1800 C diet, and to 200 grams of carbs a day, but this brings me back to my original question. What do you do with people who are not at all overweight, and who, because of exercise levels or perhaps work requirements, need to consume a lot more calories than that to support their activity level? I don't want to beat this to death, but despite my age I am very fit, and muscular, and I really want to stay that way as long as I can, but I can't do that on 1800 calories a day. My impression from what I've read here is that increasing the total number of calories eaten will complicate BG control even if it doesn't make you overweight. 3. Does it help to break up the day's total food intake into smaller, more frequent meals? 4. If you want to test what effect a particular food has on BG, do you eat JUST that food, and test immediately before, and one and two hours after? Does that tell you anything? Or do you vary a complete meal one thing, or at least one carb, at a time and test for that? Seems like the single food test would tell you what you want to know. With my schedule, I could do that first thing in the morning, testing one thing at a time. 5. Looks like testing (three tests per meal) is pretty expensive. But I guess you only have to do that in the beginning if things settle down after a while. 6. I can't imagine anybody not liking peaches. Thanks again for your responses. > I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. I think > at this point I need to do a lot of homework to figure out where I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1. I'm being tested for FBG again in about three weeks. Should I > request the A1c test as well? Sure. Your doc should be glad to do it, since your doc was concerned. > 2. I see references to a standard 1800 C diet, and to 200 grams of > carbs a day, but this brings me back to my original question. What [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > calories eaten will complicate BG control even if it doesn't make > you overweight. 1800 Calories is ridiculous for a muscular, fit, active man. You can add fats and proteins, since you eat extremely high carb, and maintain fitness and desirable glucose. No diabetic or IGT should eat 200 gms of carbs per day. > 3. Does it help to break up the day's total food intake into > smaller, more frequent meals? Yes. Meal size actually influences insulin levels, too, and more frequent meals maintain more level glucose. > 4. If you want to test what effect a particular food has on BG, do > you eat JUST that food, and test immediately before, and one and two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > want to know. With my schedule, I could do that first thing in the > morning, testing one thing at a time. Do the meals; the problem foods will reveal themselves. Besides, you want to test the effect of your meals, which you'll be eating, not individual ingredients. Mixed meals affect bg differently. > 5. Looks like testing (three tests per meal) is pretty expensive. > But I guess you only have to do that in the beginning if things > settle down after a while. Exactly. > 6. I can't imagine anybody not liking peaches. Nor I. :-) Susan I'll interleave. However, first, I'll repeat your opening post: "Last week I had my first fasting BG level over 110 - it was 114 to be exact. But two weeks before my non-fasting level was 105, so I don't know WTF is going on." Then, cholersterol: TOT 222 HDL 71 LDL 136 TRI 71 TOT/HDL 3.1 My reason for repeating that is that you are not yet a diabetic. Many here would love to have those numbers. Depending which definition you follow, you MAY be pre-diabetic. However, you are being wise and pro-active and attempting to pre-empt future diagnosis - correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, there is no need to panic, but some modest changes now may lead to some significant benefits later. >I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. I think >at this point I need to do a lot of homework to figure out where I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >1. I'm being tested for FBG again in about three weeks. Should I >request the A1c test as well? I would, but I wouldn't stress about it. However, if your new meter shows some high BG numbers (come back and ask with some results) then I definitely would. >2. I see references to a standard 1800 C diet, and to 200 grams of >carbs a day, but this brings me back to my original question. What [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >calories eaten will complicate BG control even if it doesn't make >you overweight. Start with exactly what you eat now. Then, using your meter, see what effects that has. Maybe you don't need to change anything. But, if you do, replace the carbs you cut with either lower GI carbs or protein/fat(pref mono-unsaturated) for an equivalent energy result. >3. Does it help to break up the day's total food intake into >smaller, more frequent meals? For me, yes. For you - it depends on your lifestyle and your varying energy needs through the day. >4. If you want to test what effect a particular food has on BG, do >you eat JUST that food, and test immediately before, and one and two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >want to know. With my schedule, I could do that first thing in the >morning, testing one thing at a time. I'd suggest one at a time as you said. Start with breakfast - that's the most common problem for most type 2's. A variation may be to cut out one item at a time from your normal meal, because the other ingredients can affect the speed and height of a spike. >5. Looks like testing (three tests per meal) is pretty expensive. >But I guess you only have to do that in the beginning if things >settle down after a while. If strips are a problem - just do fasting and post-prandials for one meal a day. Once you know when your peak is (it can still vary sometimes), you may only need to check at that timing after eating. I only bother with a two-hour test if the one-hour was high. As you learn, no need to re-invent the wheel. However, I do re-checks regularly just to confirm things aren't changing. Very quickly you should get to know your stable pre-meal numbers; I rarely bother with pre-meal tests now (except fasting). >6. I can't imagine anybody not liking peaches. Me either:-) >Thanks again for your responses. Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. SignatureEverything in Moderation - Except Laughter. > I want to thank everybody for their replies and comments. I think > at this point I need to do a lot of homework to figure out where I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1. I'm being tested for FBG again in about three weeks. Should I > request the A1c test as well? I would expect that to be done as a matter of course, it is a part of the diagnostic requirement. > 2. I see references to a standard 1800 C diet, and to 200 grams of > carbs a day, but this brings me back to my original question. There is more chance of having a standard shoe size than a standard diet. Many if not most people diagnosed are overweight and any diet suggested may well be a "weight loss" diet rather than a maintenance diet. 1800 calories is nowhere near enough for an active male who isn't attempting to lose weight. What > do you do with people who are not at all overweight, and who, > because of exercise levels or perhaps work requirements, need to > consume a lot more calories than that to support their activity > level? They should eat more. I eat at least 2500 calories per day at the moment, it can go up from that depending on my exercise level. 2500 is my minimum, but I exercise an absolute minimum of an hour and a half per day, divided into morning and evening. If I add, say a day of kayaking or bike riding, I will increase calories proportionately. I don't want to beat this to death, but despite my age I am > very fit, and muscular, and I really want to stay that way as long > as I can, but I can't do that on 1800 calories a day. My impression > from what I've read here is that increasing the total number of > calories eaten will complicate BG control even if it doesn't make > you overweight. Not so if you are getting sufficient exercise. Exercise lowers blood glucose long term although some claim that it temporarily raises it for them. It has never done so for me, it always drops it. > 3. Does it help to break up the day's total food intake into > smaller, more frequent meals? Yes, it helps a great deal. I eat five or six small meals per day. Large meals cause higher blood glucose spikes than a series of smaller meals. It is the spikes, the time your blood sugar is high, that do the damage. > 4. If you want to test what effect a particular food has on BG, do > you eat JUST that food, and test immediately before, and one and two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > want to know. With my schedule, I could do that first thing in the > morning, testing one thing at a time. You need to be realistic and include it with other "normal" foods if you want to discover how it will affect you. I measure before eating and at one and two hours intervals after whenever I include a new food. > 5. Looks like testing (three tests per meal) is pretty expensive. > But I guess you only have to do that in the beginning if things > settle down after a while. You only need to do it when you try new foods, or eat them at different times of the day etc. > 6. I can't imagine anybody not liking peaches. I eat them all the time with my cereal in the morning although I think that they are rather bland. I buy bakers peach and apple in large (1 gallon) containers, an unsweetened diced fruit for use in pie making. I am ambivalent to peaches, perhaps spoiled by things like mangoes, black plums and cherries. I prefer nectarines to peaches but can't get them in baker's lots. Regards David SignatureTo email me, please include the letters DNF anywhere in the subject line. All other mail is automatically deleted. > 1. I'm being tested for FBG again in about three weeks. Should I > request the A1c test as well? Absolutely. If nothing else, it will establish a starting point against which you can measure improvements. You should also have baseline tests consisting of a CBC, CMP, CUA, and at least a microalbumin dipstick, if you didn't get them last time. A TSH and FreeT3 would be a good idea, too. Get copies of your lab reports and start a file. You are legally entitled to them. > 2. I see references to a standard 1800 C diet, and to 200 grams of > carbs a day, but this brings me back to my original question. What [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > calories eaten will complicate BG control even if it doesn't make > you overweight. First, I have to caution you that, as a fit, adult onset diabetic, you may actually be a Type-1 diabetic called a LADA. While it is not unheard of for a fit adult to be Type-2, it is somewhat unusual. Please discuss this with your doc, and request antibody tests to see if you are really Type-1. These antibodies will have names like GAD-65, HLA-DR3, HLA-DR4, IAA, and ICA512. If your doc doesn't even know these names, you need a doc who does, like an endocrinologist. If you truly need 2400 or 3000 cals per day to maintain your weight, then that's what you need, and that's what you should eat. This is where a dietitian who truly crafts a diet for your specific needs is invaluable. Unfortunately, the collective experience of most in this NG is that such dietitians are a rare commodity. From a diabetic standpoint, the old so-called ADA diet was based on erroneous assumptions. These included: 1. Dietary cholesterol translates to serum cholesterol. We now know this is not true. Over 80% of serum cholesterol is manufactured within the body by the liver. 2. Fats make you fat. While fat is more calorie dense at 9 kcal/g than protein and carb at 4 kcal/gm, fats are necessary for nerve repair and the production of important hormones. The new focus is less on quantity and more on quality; on eating "good" fats, i.e., more mono- and poly-unsaturated fats and fewer saturated fats. Eating more Omega-3 fats and fewer Omega-6 fat |
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