Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005
Why use supplememts at all?
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Annette - 24 Oct 2005 18:43 GMT Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be obtained by eating natural, fresh foods. So many things that are promoted as supplements to our diets are unnecessary, if you know just which foods to eat, and in what proportion.
Supplements are expensive, and can even be harmful, if used incorrectly, or even sometimes because they are being ingested in isolation from the items found in natural foods. Vit C is a good example. Without the rutin and other flavinoids found in fruit, it can actually do more harm than good, even damaging cells and disrupting biological processes.
So why use supplements at all?
1. A necessary item may be lacking in our diets due to location and local conditions. Iodine is a good example of this. In some parts of the world, like inland Australia, iodine is lacking in the soil and it's produce, and sea food is difficult to get or very expensive. So we have a product called iodised salt that can be used in place of ordinary salt. Without iodine, our thyroid glands cannot function efficiently, and lack of this mineral can even lead to brain damage in our children.
2. We may not be able to absorb the needed nutriment efficiently or in sufficient amounts, even when it is in the food, due to ill health or old age. Some disorders (like diabetes) can deplete the body more of certain things, than in healthy people Supplements that are designed to be more easily absorbed or metabolised can make up the lack. In diabetes, for instance, supplementary Vitamin B12 may prevent low levels of this important vitamin if it has been depleted by the medication metformin.
3. Genetic metabolic, or chronic disease disorders can prevent the production/metabolising of complicated biochemicals that are normally produced naturally by healthy bodies from simpler nutriments. If identical compounds can be produced artificially, then they can replace the missing ones in the body, and maintain health. Often these are obtained as prescribed "medicines", insulin being a classic example. But there are some that are available in many countries as OTC "supplements". One that is prescribed by doctors in Germany, but is treated as a supplement in Oz and the US, is ALA or Thiotic Acid. It is an insulin memetic, and very useful for T2's in helping with the management of bg levels and neuropathy, and preventing the oxidisation of cells.
4. Some items that are obtained from natural vegetable sources, are proven safe and effective, but are not easily available as a food item, can be taken as a supplement. GLA, for example, is recognised by medicine and science as being beneficial for those suffering from peripheral neuropathy, but is obtained as a part of the oil from Evening Primrose seeds or Borage. Not plants that one would normally eat! But reasonably cheap and readily obtainable as a supplementary oil.
I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful. But it is also unwise to write off all supplements as being of no value.
So the best plan is to discuss the use of supps with your doctor, and always research the scientific literature carefully, (not purely anecdotal reports or commercial sites), and ONLY use those things that are well documented and supported, in the recommended amounts. If in doubt, DON'T! You might be surprised to find how little you will ever really need to purchase, yet how helpful particular items can be if you really need them.
Be alert and aware, and spend your hard earned dollars carefully and thoughtfully,
Annette
Quentin Grady - 25 Oct 2005 01:25 GMT G'day G'day Annette,
Thank you for posting an excellent summary. I'm sure many new comers will find it most helpful. Even the not so new comers will find it a jolly up for the memory cells.
There are a few points others are likely to want to be included.
Newbies sometimes see supplements as a way to avoid dealing with diet, exercise or medication. Supplements are just that, optional items after having gotten the basics correct not a replacement.
Supplements are much less tightly regulated and tested for efficacy and safety than medications. Brand loyalty can sometimes lead one into buying supplements that are not all that we think they are.
Best wishes, Quentin.
This post not CC'd by email On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:43:19 GMT, "Annette" <acianthus@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be >obtained by eating natural, fresh foods. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > >Annette
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Annette - 25 Oct 2005 14:13 GMT > G'day G'day Annette, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Best wishes, > Quentin. Hi there Quentin,
Thank you for your comments. I agree totally with all the points you made.
Unless one gets the basics of good blood glucose management established, no supplement is able to "fix" or "cure" diabetes. The truth is, no matter what we would prefer, DIABETES IS INCURABLE. The very word supplement is the clue - something added as an extra, and definitely not the main thing. This is not a trivial matter. Whilst one is merrily going along relying on some wonder cure, those high blood glucose levels are damaging more and more organs, with unpleasant and even fatal consequences.
The same applies even to the acredited prescribed medications. Even insulin. Sure, they do a great job, but a careless or indifferent attitude to one's own responsibility regarding management can lead to the same undesirable consequences. The three main foundations for good management of diabetes, whether T1, T2, or Gestational Diabetes, or even pre-diabetic conditions, is diet, exercise, and suitable medications as advised.
MANAGEMENT is the object and the best option available at the present time.
It's like building a house. Shelter from the elements is the primary goal. One needs a sound foundation, solid walls and a reliable roof. Anything extra can make it more comfortable and pleasant, but will not keep the rain out.
As for the lack of regulation with supplements, I got caught once with a supplement that purported to include something like 80% of the desired substance (ALA) in a soy oil base. For once I did not react to the soy oil, (that's another story), but yet did not seem to obtain the expected benefit. It was quite expensive too!
Anyway, when the PAN scandal hit, this particular brand disappeared off the shelves, and a detailed description of the contents of the capsules were published. It seems that almost all the content consisted of was oil, with about 1% or less or even only a trace of the purported (and obviously more expensive) supplement in there. No wonder I did not seem to gain any benefit!
One learns as one goes along, I guess. Experience is what is gained, but sometimes at a serious cost (and I don't mean money, either!)
Annette
Alan S - 25 Oct 2005 02:48 GMT >I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either >unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful. >But it is also unwise to write off all supplements as being of no value. Totally agreed.
My only supps were added after a long process of trying to get it all through foods, and analysing my daily menu. But I cut back severely on dairy, so I added calcium (which happens to come in a combined calcium magnesium tablet - I share my wife's bottle). I read the various discussions here and added CoQ10 and B12 for my lipitor and now the metformin; and as I cut starches I added psyllium for fibre.
I'm starting to review all of those, but I'll do it one at a time in three-month stages as I see successive complete blood counts.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
naneklund@aol.com - 25 Oct 2005 18:17 GMT We're all different and some of us can't get what we need in "regular" or "healthy" foods. My doctor, noting my age (77), put me on Actonel plus calcium plus Vitamin D (for old lady's bone loss - dah!) and I, personally, have added Vitamin C since most fruits raise my sugar level. About the only ones I can eat without problems are whole oranges - carefully and I try to keep them small) and blueberries. (I shouldn't eat blackberries but I've got them on the back fence and can't resist!) I trust my doctor and even if my back is perfectly straight, there's that pesky herniated disc...........might as well fortify the spine. Nan, Type 2 since 1990 or so
bj - 25 Oct 2005 19:34 GMT Did you ever have a DEXA scan?
> We're all different and some of us can't get what we need in "regular" > or "healthy" foods. My doctor, noting my age (77), put me on Actonel > plus calcium plus Vitamin D (for old lady's bone loss - dah!) .... > I trust my doctor and even if my back is perfectly straight, there's > that pesky herniated disc...........might as well fortify the spine. > Nan, Type 2 since 1990 or so Quentin Grady - 25 Oct 2005 20:09 GMT This post not CC'd by email
>(I shouldn't eat blackberries but I've got them on the back fence and >can't resist!) G'day G'day,
Eat them unless they are not yours.
Check the USDA database and you'll discover that getting enough carbs from blackberries to spike would be really hard work.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
The blackberries would have about the best antioxidants at the best possible price.
Of course there might be some unstated reason why you shouldn't eat blackberries ... perhaps the pits stick in your teeth. <grin>
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
ted rosenberg - 26 Oct 2005 02:14 GMT > Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be > obtained by eating natural, fresh foods. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > glands cannot function efficiently, and lack of this mineral can even lead > to brain damage in our children. Iodized salt is not a "supplement" it is a food, a fortified food, but a food, with all the protections
> 2. We may not be able to absorb the needed nutriment efficiently or in > sufficient amounts, even when it is in the food, due to ill health or old [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > prevent low levels of this important vitamin if it has been depleted by the > medication metformin. Diabetics do not need "supplementary B12" only vegans do, The rest of us can get it from food,
> 3. Genetic metabolic, or chronic disease disorders can prevent the > production/metabolising of complicated biochemicals that are normally [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > management of bg levels and neuropathy, and preventing the oxidisation of > cells. Bullcrap
> 4. Some items that are obtained from natural vegetable sources, are proven > safe and effective, but are not easily available as a food item, can be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not plants that one would normally eat! But reasonably cheap and readily > obtainable as a supplementary oil. more bullcrap
> I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either > unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Annette Alan S - 26 Oct 2005 16:07 GMT >more bullcrap Ted
There are some posters you can say that to without clarification - and no one will argue. Because we all know it's bullcrap. Chung, spammers, no problem.
But there are others who have far higher credibility here than you in certain areas; for those you'll need to expand that word with some verifiable or logical support. Personally, I wouldn't argue with Annette on nutrition and supplements without spending a day in the library first. In fact, I just don't argue with her because I'd end up looking foolish. In your case, just as one small example, you have never understood that different countries use different methods to define things. In this country, iodised salt is salt supplemented by iodine. Salt is a food, iodine forms are not. http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/Standard2102_Salt_v62.pdf "In this Code - iodised salt means a mixture of salt and - (a) potassium iodide or potassium iodate; or (b) sodium iodide or sodium iodate."
But that's semantics anyway. Try checking who you're talking to before you respond and set your tone accordingly. Must you always put the keyboard in gear before you engage your brain?
On a seperate note, from this meek, mild milquetoast, be grateful you weren't face to face with me at the time I read your post.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
ted rosenberg - 29 Oct 2005 21:49 GMT >>more bullcrap > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia. Alan - I think you should note that I have said that in Oz, supplements are regulated, not very well, but they are regulated. IN THE US - they are not regulated AT ALL, and iodized salt is not a supplement, it is a food. as is fortified milk. If one is in the us, the appellation "SUPPLEMENT" is the same as saying "FRAUD" SO, anyone talking about Australian "supplements" should always note that they are talking about Australian "supplements" not Kiwi or Brit (which are not as well regulated) or US, which are fraudulent. or Canadian, which are almost as bad as US. You all are by far the minority
Alan S - 30 Oct 2005 00:08 GMT >>>more bullcrap >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >regulated) or US, which are fraudulent. or Canadian, which are almost as >bad as US. You all are by far the minority Ted, my comment wasn't about supplements and their regulation. In fact, that was a side issue. We have to work out for ourselves where a poster is from when attempting to understand their posts. I make it clear in my sig, but after your years of posting here, if you weren't aware that Annette was from Australia, you must have Alzheimer's.
It was about credibility, manners and knee-jerk reactions. It also quite clearly indicated that some form of apology was warranted for your outburst and your ignorance.
You chose to ignore that. Sadly, I'm not surprised.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Wes Groleau - 30 Oct 2005 02:23 GMT > food. as is fortified milk. If one is in the us, the appellation > "SUPPLEMENT" is the same as saying "FRAUD" SO, anyone talking about A Chinese phrase is the perfect response:
不是 meaning "IS NOT!" and pronounced BÙ SHÌ
We know fraud and lies abound in the supplement industry.
We also know--AND SO DOES TED--that some supplements are of some value to some people.
 Signature Wes Groleau Heroes, Heritage, and History http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/
Quentin Grady - 26 Oct 2005 22:05 GMT This post not CC'd by email On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:14:53 -0400, ted rosenberg <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
>Bullcrap BAD dog.
Sit
Stay
Good dog <grin>
G'day G'day Ted,
It could be that you have something useful to say on the subject of GLA and lipoic acid. If so we haven't heard it.
"Bullcrap" doesn't qualify.
Neither does "More Bullcrap"
All these comments do is suggest elevated cortisol is bringing on a cranky phase where heightened sensitivity to words like "supplements" brings on a knee jerk reaction with diminished rationality. Frankly, we know you are capable of a more carefully reasoned discussion if you put your heart and mind to it.
Your choice.
Best wishes,
 Signature Quentin Grady ^ ^ / New Zealand, >#,#< [ / \ /\ "... and the blind dog was leading."
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Alan S - 27 Oct 2005 01:35 GMT >This post not CC'd by email > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Best wishes, Darn! Why didn't I say that!
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
 Signature Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
mrslang - 30 Oct 2005 01:34 GMT > Bullcrap maybe to you but annette took the time to write up some very informative things and I appreciate that she did. she's a poster that should be on everybody's "must read" list in this newsgroup. no bull.
Sally
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