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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005

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Why use supplememts at all?

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Annette - 24 Oct 2005 18:43 GMT
Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be
obtained by eating natural, fresh foods.
So many things that are promoted as supplements to our diets are
unnecessary, if you know just which foods to eat, and in what proportion.

Supplements are expensive, and can even be harmful, if used incorrectly, or
even sometimes because they are being ingested in isolation from the items
found in natural foods. Vit C is a good example. Without the rutin and other
flavinoids found in fruit, it can actually do more harm than good, even
damaging cells and disrupting biological processes.

So why use supplements at all?

1. A necessary item may be lacking in our diets due to location and local
conditions.
Iodine is a good example of this. In some parts of the world, like inland
Australia, iodine is lacking in the soil and it's produce, and sea food is
difficult to get or very expensive. So we have a product called iodised salt
that can be used in place of ordinary salt. Without iodine, our thyroid
glands cannot function efficiently, and lack of this mineral can even lead
to brain damage in our children.

2. We may not be able to absorb the needed nutriment efficiently or in
sufficient amounts, even when it is in the food, due to ill health or old
age. Some disorders (like diabetes) can deplete the body more of certain
things, than in healthy people
Supplements that are designed to be more easily absorbed or metabolised can
make up the lack. In diabetes, for instance, supplementary Vitamin B12 may
prevent low levels of this important vitamin if it has been depleted by the
medication metformin.

3.  Genetic metabolic, or chronic disease disorders can prevent the
production/metabolising of complicated biochemicals that are normally
produced naturally by healthy bodies from simpler nutriments. If identical
compounds can be produced artificially, then they can replace the missing
ones in the body, and maintain health.  Often these are obtained as
prescribed "medicines", insulin being a classic example. But there are some
that are available in many countries as OTC "supplements".
One that is prescribed by doctors in Germany, but is treated as a supplement
in Oz and the US, is ALA or Thiotic Acid.
It is an insulin memetic, and very useful for T2's in helping with the
management of bg levels and neuropathy, and preventing the oxidisation of
cells.

4. Some items that are obtained from natural vegetable sources, are proven
safe and effective, but are not easily available as a food item, can be
taken as a supplement. GLA, for example, is recognised by medicine and
science as being beneficial for those suffering from peripheral neuropathy,
but is obtained as a part of the oil from Evening Primrose seeds or Borage.
Not plants that one would normally eat! But reasonably cheap and readily
obtainable as a supplementary oil.

I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either
unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful.
But it is also unwise to write off all supplements as being of no value.

So the best plan is to discuss the use of supps with your doctor, and always
research the scientific literature carefully, (not purely anecdotal reports
or commercial sites), and ONLY use those things that are well documented and
supported, in the recommended amounts. If in doubt, DON'T! You might be
surprised to find how little you will ever really need to purchase, yet how
helpful particular items can be if you really need them.

Be alert and aware, and spend your hard earned dollars carefully and
thoughtfully,

Annette
Quentin Grady - 25 Oct 2005 01:25 GMT
G'day G'day Annette,

Thank you for posting an excellent summary.  
I'm sure many new comers will find it most helpful.  Even the not so
new comers will find it a jolly up for the memory cells.

There are a few points others are likely to want to be included.

Newbies sometimes see supplements as a way to avoid dealing with diet,
exercise or medication.  Supplements are just that, optional items
after having gotten the basics correct not a replacement.

Supplements are much less tightly regulated and tested for efficacy
and safety than medications. Brand loyalty can sometimes lead one into
buying supplements that are not all that we think they are.

Best wishes,
Quentin.

This post not CC'd by email
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:43:19 GMT, "Annette" <acianthus@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be
>obtained by eating natural, fresh foods.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
>Annette

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Annette - 25 Oct 2005 14:13 GMT
> G'day G'day Annette,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Best wishes,
> Quentin.

Hi there Quentin,

Thank you for your comments. I agree totally with all the points you made.

Unless one gets the basics of good blood glucose management established, no
supplement is able to "fix" or "cure" diabetes. The truth is, no matter what
we would prefer, DIABETES IS INCURABLE.
The very word supplement is the clue - something added as an extra, and
definitely not the main thing.  This is not a trivial matter. Whilst one is
merrily going along relying on some wonder cure, those high blood glucose
levels are damaging more and more organs, with unpleasant and even fatal
consequences.

The same applies even to the acredited prescribed medications. Even insulin.
Sure, they do a great job, but a careless or indifferent attitude to one's
own responsibility regarding management can lead to the same undesirable
consequences.
The three main foundations for good management of diabetes, whether T1, T2,
or Gestational Diabetes, or even pre-diabetic conditions, is diet, exercise,
and suitable medications as advised.

MANAGEMENT is the object and the best option available at the present time.

It's like building a house. Shelter from the elements is the primary goal.
One needs a sound foundation, solid walls and a reliable roof. Anything
extra can make it more comfortable and pleasant, but will not keep the rain
out.

As for the lack of regulation with supplements, I got caught once with a
supplement that purported to include something like 80% of the desired
substance (ALA) in a soy oil base.
For once I did not react to the soy oil, (that's another story), but yet did
not seem to obtain the expected benefit. It was quite expensive too!

Anyway, when the PAN scandal hit, this particular brand disappeared off the
shelves, and a detailed description of the contents of the capsules were
published. It seems that almost all the content consisted of was oil, with
about 1% or less or even only a trace of the purported (and obviously more
expensive) supplement in there.  No wonder I did not seem to gain any
benefit!

One learns as one goes along, I guess. Experience is what is gained, but
sometimes at a serious cost (and I don't mean money, either!)

Annette
Alan S - 25 Oct 2005 02:48 GMT
>I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either
>unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful.
>But it is also unwise to write off all supplements as being of no value.

Totally agreed.

My only supps were added after a long process of trying to
get it all through foods, and analysing my daily menu. But I
cut back severely on dairy, so I added calcium (which
happens to come in a combined calcium magnesium tablet - I
share my wife's bottle). I read the various discussions here
and added CoQ10 and B12 for my lipitor and now the
metformin; and as I cut starches I added psyllium for fibre.

I'm starting to review all of those, but I'll do it one at a
time in three-month stages as I see successive complete
blood counts.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

naneklund@aol.com - 25 Oct 2005 18:17 GMT
We're all different and some of us can't get what we need in "regular"
or  "healthy" foods.  My doctor, noting my age (77), put me on Actonel
plus calcium plus Vitamin D (for old lady's bone loss - dah!) and I,
personally, have added Vitamin C since most fruits  raise my sugar
level.   About the only ones I can eat without  problems are whole
oranges - carefully and I try to keep them small)  and blueberries.  (I
shouldn't eat blackberries but I've got them on the back fence and
can't resist!)
I trust my doctor and even if my back is perfectly straight,  there's
that pesky herniated disc...........might as well fortify  the spine.
Nan, Type 2 since 1990 or so
bj - 25 Oct 2005 19:34 GMT
Did you ever have a DEXA scan?

> We're all different and some of us can't get what we need in "regular"
> or  "healthy" foods.  My doctor, noting my age (77), put me on Actonel
> plus calcium plus Vitamin D (for old lady's bone loss - dah!) ....
> I trust my doctor and even if my back is perfectly straight,  there's
> that pesky herniated disc...........might as well fortify  the spine.
> Nan, Type 2 since 1990 or so
Quentin Grady - 25 Oct 2005 20:09 GMT
This post not CC'd by email

>(I shouldn't eat blackberries but I've got them on the back fence and
>can't resist!)

G'day G'day,

Eat them unless they are not yours.

Check the USDA database and you'll discover that getting enough carbs
from blackberries to spike would be really hard work.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

The blackberries would have about the best antioxidants at the best
possible price.

Of course there might be some unstated reason why you shouldn't eat
blackberries ... perhaps the pits stick in your teeth.   <grin>

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

ted rosenberg - 26 Oct 2005 02:14 GMT
> Most of the time I write about all the wonderful nutriments that can be
> obtained by eating natural, fresh foods.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> glands cannot function efficiently, and lack of this mineral can even lead
> to brain damage in our children.

Iodized salt is not a "supplement" it is a food, a fortified food, but a
food, with all the protections

> 2. We may not be able to absorb the needed nutriment efficiently or in
> sufficient amounts, even when it is in the food, due to ill health or old
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> prevent low levels of this important vitamin if it has been depleted by the
> medication metformin.

Diabetics do not need "supplementary B12"  only vegans do,  The rest of
us can get it from food,

> 3.  Genetic metabolic, or chronic disease disorders can prevent the
> production/metabolising of complicated biochemicals that are normally
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> management of bg levels and neuropathy, and preventing the oxidisation of
> cells.

Bullcrap

> 4. Some items that are obtained from natural vegetable sources, are proven
> safe and effective, but are not easily available as a food item, can be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Not plants that one would normally eat! But reasonably cheap and readily
> obtainable as a supplementary oil.

more bullcrap

> I still think that a lot of money is wasted on things that are either
> unnecessary or even useless, let alone potentially harmful.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Annette
Alan S - 26 Oct 2005 16:07 GMT
>more bullcrap

Ted

There are some posters you can say that to without
clarification - and no one will argue. Because we all know
it's bullcrap. Chung, spammers, no problem.

But there are others who have far higher credibility here
than you in certain areas; for those you'll need to expand
that word with some verifiable or logical support.
Personally, I wouldn't argue with Annette on nutrition and
supplements without spending a day in the library first. In
fact, I just don't argue with her because I'd end up looking
foolish. In your case, just as one small example, you have
never understood that different countries use different
methods to define things. In this country, iodised salt is
salt supplemented by iodine. Salt is a food, iodine forms
are not.
http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/Standard2102_Salt_v62.pdf
"In this Code -
iodised salt means a mixture of salt and -
(a) potassium iodide or potassium iodate; or
(b) sodium iodide or sodium iodate."

But that's semantics anyway. Try checking who you're talking
to before you respond and set your tone accordingly. Must
you always put the keyboard in gear before you engage your
brain?

On a seperate note, from this meek, mild milquetoast, be
grateful you weren't face to face with me at the time I read
your post.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

ted rosenberg - 29 Oct 2005 21:49 GMT
>>more bullcrap
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.

Alan - I think you should note that I have said that in Oz, supplements
are regulated, not very well, but they are regulated.  IN THE US - they
are not regulated AT ALL, and iodized salt is not a supplement, it is a
food. as is fortified milk. If one is in the us, the appellation
"SUPPLEMENT" is the same as saying "FRAUD"  SO, anyone talking about
Australian "supplements" should always note that they are talking about
Australian "supplements" not Kiwi or Brit (which are not as well
regulated) or US, which are fraudulent. or Canadian, which are almost as
bad as US.  You all are by far the minority
Alan S - 30 Oct 2005 00:08 GMT
>>>more bullcrap
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>regulated) or US, which are fraudulent. or Canadian, which are almost as
>bad as US.  You all are by far the minority

Ted, my comment wasn't about supplements and their
regulation. In fact, that was a side issue. We have to work
out for ourselves where a poster is from when attempting to
understand their posts. I make it clear in my sig, but after
your years of posting here, if you weren't aware that
Annette was from Australia, you must have Alzheimer's.

It was about credibility, manners and knee-jerk reactions.
It also quite clearly indicated that some form of apology
was warranted for your outburst and your ignorance.

You chose to ignore that. Sadly, I'm not surprised.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Wes Groleau - 30 Oct 2005 02:23 GMT
> food. as is fortified milk. If one is in the us, the appellation
> "SUPPLEMENT" is the same as saying "FRAUD"  SO, anyone talking about

A Chinese phrase is the perfect response:

不是 meaning "IS NOT!"  and pronounced  BÙ SHÌ

We know fraud and lies abound in the supplement industry.

We also know--AND SO DOES TED--that some supplements
are of some value to some people.

Signature

Wes Groleau
Heroes, Heritage, and History
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau/

Quentin Grady - 26 Oct 2005 22:05 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:14:53 -0400, ted rosenberg
<tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:

>Bullcrap

BAD dog.

Sit

Stay

Good dog   <grin>

G'day G'day Ted,

It could be that you have something useful to say on the subject of
GLA and lipoic acid.  If so we haven't heard it.

"Bullcrap" doesn't qualify.  

Neither does "More Bullcrap"

All these comments do is suggest elevated cortisol is bringing on a
cranky phase where heightened sensitivity to words like "supplements"
brings on a knee jerk reaction with diminished rationality. Frankly,
we know you are capable of a more carefully reasoned discussion if you
put your heart and mind to it.  

Your choice.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Alan S - 27 Oct 2005 01:35 GMT
>This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>Best wishes,

Darn! Why didn't I say that!

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Signature

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

mrslang - 30 Oct 2005 01:34 GMT
> Bullcrap

maybe to you but annette took the time to write up some very
informative things and I appreciate that she did.  she's a poster that
should be on everybody's "must read" list in this newsgroup.  no bull.

Sally
 
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