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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Diabetes / October 2005

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Dr. McDougall's Recommendations:

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Colin Hammond - 02 Oct 2005 02:14 GMT
This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!

Both forms of diabetes, childhood and adult, are rare in parts of the
world where people's meals are based on starches. This rarity of
adult-type diabetes is concerned, since the primary cause of that
illness is the rich Western diet. Fat inhibits action of the body's
insulin, and the lack of fibers allows rapid passage of glucose from the
gut into the blood at which point the blood sugar content rises rapidly.
Carbohydrates surprisingly stimulate insulin activity, thereby lowering
blood sugar levels, and making the diabetic feel better.

Childhood diabetes is explained by cow's milk consumption. Cow's milk
protein fed to young children causes an autoimmune reaction that causes
the body to direct antibodies to the child's pancreas.

Many of the complications that occur in both forms of the disease are
the consequences of a rich diet burdening a weakened system. A diabetic
person cannot defend himself from the harmful American diet or repair
the damages it causes as well as can someone who does not have diabetes.
consider how a small infection in a diabetic's toe can soon extend to
the point where amputation of the foot or of the leg will be necessary.
The various manifestations of atherosclerosis can progress much more
rapidly in a diabetic. Even mild variations in blood sugar-control are
associated with an increased rate of heart attacks in Americans.

Dr. McDougall's Recommendations:

Never take oral hypoglycemic drugs, because they increase your chances
of dying sooner. Change to a low-fat, high-complex carbohydrate diet
(starches, vegetables, and about 3 fruits a day). If you're obese, lose
weight, for added health and blood sugar-control. You should also be
physically active. Exercise, in addition to helping you lose weight, has
independent benefits that increase the activity of insulin and improves
your diabetic condition. Childhood-type diabetics will always need
insulin because they make little or none of their own.
RK - 02 Oct 2005 02:20 GMT
BOY, is this info SO outdated... anyone would be a
fool to follow this advice.

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250

| This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
|
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
| your diabetic condition. Childhood-type diabetics will always need
| insulin because they make little or none of their own.
Julie Bove - 02 Oct 2005 10:58 GMT
> This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Carbohydrates surprisingly stimulate insulin activity, thereby lowering
> blood sugar levels, and making the diabetic feel better.

<bunch of crap snipped>

Gee...  'Splain to me how I got diabetes then?  For many years prior to
diabetes, my diet was based on starches.  Beans and rice, mainly, with leafy
and other veggies thrown in for balance.  I ate little to no fat.  Whole
grains.  No meat whatever.  And yet...  Here I am type 2.  I produce a ton
of insulin and yet I have insulin resistance.

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http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm

Annette - 02 Oct 2005 15:07 GMT
> > This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> grains.  No meat whatever.  And yet...  Here I am type 2.  I produce a ton
> of insulin and yet I have insulin resistance.

This wouldn't be Iron Tom in a new guise, would it?

Same 'ol.

Annette
Rich Murray - 02 Oct 2005 16:44 GMT
>> This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> grains.  No meat whatever.  And yet...  Here I am type 2.  I produce a ton
> of insulin and yet I have insulin resistance.

methanol (formaldehyde) from dark wines and liquors, smoke, aspartame
aggravates glucose level problems in many people: Bove: Murray 2005.10.02

Many diabetics report that aspartame severely aggravates their blood glucose
fluctuations -- this may be from the inevitable, swift conversion of much of
the 11% methanol (wood alcohol) component of aspartame in humans into
formaldehyde, and then formic acid, both severe, cumulative toxins.

Adequate levels of folic acid, plentiful in fruits and vegetables, help
counter this toxicity in most people.  But a variety of drugs, including
most common pain medicines like aspirin and Tylenol, interfere with folic
acid.

Other sources of methanol include degradation of pectins in fruits and
vegetables by bacteria in the colon, and dark wines and liquors (about twice
the amount as in diet sodas) -- agreed by experts to be the main cause of
the dreadful misery of "next morning" hangovers.

Other formaldehyde sources are wood and tobacco smoke, natural gas heaters,
vehicle exhaust, new furniture, drapes, and carpets, new mobile homes, new
buildings, many personal care items, cleaning products, mortuaries and
medical schools and labs, some dental root canal medicines.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1219
low fat vegan diet helps obese women with weight, metabolism, glucose
tolerance and insulin sensitivity, Neal D Barnard, MD et al, American J
Medicine 2005 Sept., Physicians for Social Responsibility,
FoodNavigator-USA.com: Murray 2005.09.26

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/message/1225
Aspartame -- the shocking story, Pat Thomas, The Ecologist, 2005 Sept.,
p. 35-51, full text: Murray 2005.09.30

Here's what I eat:

Avoid all products with aspartame and MSG.
Substitute stevia (at health food stores).

Gradually reduce alcohol, caffeine (coffee, cocoa, and teas), meat, fish,
eggs, milk, butter, and cheese,  hydrogenated oils, trans fats, white bread,
food additives and colors, sugar, high fructose corn syrup, fluoride, city
water, salt and sodium (< 1,000 mg daily).

Enjoy organic rice, potatoes, vegetables, fruits, beans, garlic, tumeric,
with modest use of soy products, nuts, flax seeds, almond butter, sprouted
grain breads, flax seed and olive oils, chili sauce, vitamins and minerals,
4-8 1,000 mg fish oil capsules, 4 400 mcg folic acid tablets (antidote to
methanol and formaldehyde), and fill your jugs with deionized or distilled
water.

Rich Murray, MA  Room For All  rmforall@comcast.net  505-501-2298
1943 Otowi Road    Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505   USA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aspartameNM/messages
group with 149 members, 1,229 posts in a public, searchable archive
http://RoomForAll.blogspot.com  http://AspartameNM.blogspot.com
***************************************************************
RK - 02 Oct 2005 19:53 GMT
<complete sh.t snipped from Murray>

oh you're so full of crap!! LOL since 1981
I've drank on the average of 7 diet cokes
PER DAY! and I still do... and gee before
Diet Coke came out I was drinking TAB.

can't tell ME, my DM was from anything
other then pure genetics.. NOW that I have
the proof from the blood tests..

so hey Murray.. .PISS OFF! and take your
crap elsewhere, no one here really wants
to read it.. its got more holes then swiss cheese
dude...

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250
J. David Anderson - 02 Oct 2005 14:11 GMT
> This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>
> Both forms of diabetes, childhood and adult, are rare in parts of the
> world where people's meals are based on starches.

This is far enough for me.

It seems that the writer has not heard of India, a society that eats
starch based meals and also has one of the world's greatest problems
with diabetes.

When I spent time living in India the basic food was based around rice
and vegetables, not too much meat (unlike westernised Indian
restaurants), and even back in those days there was a major problem with
diabetes.

McDougall's webs site has a section for product purchases and a very
outdated approach to modern theories regarding fats and carbohydrates. I
think that maybe he has an agenda that is more concerned with his own
welfare than with the the welfare of others.

The writer (Hammond) has, I hope, misquoted McDougall:

"Never take oral hypoglycemic drugs ..."

Hypoglycemic?

Nevertheless, be it hypoglycemic or hyperglycemic, it is reprehensible
to advise against the use of personally prescribed medications for the
treatment of a disease. If McDougall does indeed advise people not to
take prescribed medication, I think that he is both proving himself an
irresponsible charlatan and making himself into a walking invitation to
a law suit.

This poster, Hammond, is either a shill or a gullible fool. McDougall's
website seems riddled with mis-information, outdated information,
misleading conclusions and outright fabrications.

Regards

David

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Chris J. - 02 Oct 2005 18:10 GMT
>It seems that the writer has not heard of India, a society that eats
>starch based meals and also has one of the world's greatest problems
>with diabetes.

And what of the opposite end of the food scale, an almost all-fat
diet? A good example are the Eskimos. While it's true that their
incidence of DM T2 is increasing, it's still below the US average in
spite of a higher percentage of overweight people. It's also true that
in recent years their traditional diet has changed drastically due to
the introduction of many high-carb foods. Prior to that, Diabetes was
almost unknown amongst them.
RK - 02 Oct 2005 20:51 GMT
and lets NOT forget the bullcrap about
Type  1 being the cause from drinking
cow's milk as a child.. and that gee no
adults could ever be diagnosed T1 because
its a "Childhood" disease...

OMFG! then how a day after my 33rd bday
was I dx in the ER half dead?

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250

| >It seems that the writer has not heard of India, a society that eats
| >starch based meals and also has one of the world's greatest problems
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
| the introduction of many high-carb foods. Prior to that, Diabetes was
| almost unknown amongst them.
Loretta Eisenberg - 02 Oct 2005 23:24 GMT
Reisa, I sure do love your tell it like it is attitude. lol

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
RK - 02 Oct 2005 23:58 GMT
awww tanky... me do try... me do try

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250

| Reisa, I sure do love your tell it like it is attitude. lol
|
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
| terrorism.
Chris J. - 02 Oct 2005 23:31 GMT
>and lets NOT forget the bullcrap about
>Type  1 being the cause from drinking
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>OMFG! then how a day after my 33rd bday
>was I dx in the ER half dead?

Reisa, I'm glad you were not with me today :-). I was at a neighbor's
BBQ, and one of the guests overheard that I was Diabetic (I'd just
refused a roll). She came up to me and started asking a lot of
questions. She was under the impression that T1 was always a childhood
disease, and went on to say "It can't be very serious, then, if it's
just a childhood disease".

I had to turn away and stifle a laugh, because I had the sudden image
of all the T1's on ASD throwing things at her! :-)
Priscilla Ballou - 02 Oct 2005 23:44 GMT
> >and lets NOT forget the bullcrap about
> >Type  1 being the cause from drinking
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> I had to turn away and stifle a laugh, because I had the sudden image
> of all the T1's on ASD throwing things at her! :-)

Hee hee!  Chicken pox, measles, and diabetes....

Priscilla
Signature

"Inside every older person is a younger person -- wondering what
the hell happened."  -- Cora Harvey Armstrong

Chris J. - 03 Oct 2005 08:10 GMT
>> >and lets NOT forget the bullcrap about
>> >Type  1 being the cause from drinking
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Hee hee!  Chicken pox, measles, and diabetes....

I've had more than a few conversations over measles and it's
occurrence in adults. I had it at age 34, and it was no fun at all. I
did keep hearing from people that either adults can't get it, or it's
not serious. Well, adults can get it, and it is sometimes serious.
RK - 03 Oct 2005 00:03 GMT
LOL Chris... um yep... many of us prolly would have.
It amazes me also the attitude of some folks.. they either
think taking insulin is no big deal or its a major ordeal..

like at work.. I've learned the "best" way for "me" is to
eat Peanut M&M's... it works perfect for me... I usually
start to feel the low hitting around 55-58mg then I grab
my m&m's eat 7-8 of them.. the candy on the outside is
just enough to stop me from dropping lower at that
moment.. then the chocolate inside becaues of the delay
from the fat, gives me a soft small boost abt 30mins later
and the peanut is a quick small source of protein to help
ward off the hunger pangs, if I'm busy with a customer and
can't get out to eat when I need to... dont need to eat because
of the insulin, need to eat cuz lol damnit i'm hungry! I usually
go 10-12hrs between meals.

so the other day... one of the supervisors said, well theres some
hard candy in the bottom file cabinet.. hey great I thought... too
bad I hate hard candy... so.. my supervisor told me to write a
note and give it to him so he can put it in my file that as I diabetic
I'll manage my lows myself and that either a snickers or m&m's
work best for me, unless i'm acting "drunk" then call 911.

I love how those who aren't diabetic love to try to tell us what we
need and don't..

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250

----
RK, T1/pumper/Animas IR1250

| >and lets NOT forget the bullcrap about
| >Type  1 being the cause from drinking
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
| I had to turn away and stifle a laugh, because I had the sudden image
| of all the T1's on ASD throwing things at her! :-)
Julie Bove - 03 Oct 2005 03:05 GMT
> LOL Chris... um yep... many of us prolly would have.
> It amazes me also the attitude of some folks.. they either
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I love how those who aren't diabetic love to try to tell us what we
> need and don't..

I've had well meaning people snatch candy from me or refuse to give me any
candy when I'm having a hypo.  They seem to think I'm trying to kill myself
by eating candy.  And oddly, I used to think the same way when I was first
diagnosed with GD.  All the people in the in the medical profession told me
that I had to avoid sugar at all costs.  I remember saying to the dietician,
"What will happen to me if I eat...say...a Tic Tac?"  She just gave me an
odd look and told me I shouldn't do it.  The way they talked about sugar
back then made me think that if I had even a speck of it, I'd blow up or
something!

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Chris J. - 03 Oct 2005 08:29 GMT
>LOL Chris... um yep... many of us prolly would have.
>It amazes me also the attitude of some folks.. they either
>think taking insulin is no big deal or its a major ordeal..

When I was on my initial treatment, which included insulin, several of
my friends knew. I found their reactions interesting. Some couldn't
imagine giving themselves shots. Some thought it no big deal. There
seemed to be no middle ground. I can sort of sympathize with the ones
who couldn't imagine injections, though. I was one of them until the
day I was Dx'd. Now, it does not bother me, and if I have to inject in
the future it's no more daunting than testing is.

What they were, oddly, unanimous about was abject horror at the idea
of radical dietary changes. One in particular asked, numerous  times,
how on earth I could give up potatoes. It never seemed to register
with him when I told him I'd always hated potatoes, so giving up a
food I hate was hardly a hardship.  

>I love how those who aren't diabetic love to try to tell us what we
>need and don't..

ROFL!!! Yes, indeed. I've run into that a few times myself. I had a
few episodes of false hypoglycemia when I first got my BG's down. I
found a granola bar with about 15G of carbs (10 from sugar) in it was
a good countermeasure for me, so I carry them all the time. One fell
out of my pocket the other day, and a friend saw it. She snatched it
up and literally yelled at me "You can't eat that! You are a Diabetic!
It will kill you!".

I finally got her to listen as I explained about hypos, and that I
could and did eat them while hiking with no adverse effects on my
BG's. She admitted she had thought it was a candy bar, but couldn't
handle the idea that a diabetic could possibly eat sugar and not keel
over dead.

I had to kind of sympathize with that view, though: When I was first
Dx'd, even though I knew better, I still feared sugar. I considered
that a safe daily allotment of it was the same amount as a safe daily
allotment of cyanide. :-)  
Annette - 02 Oct 2005 15:05 GMT
> This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> your diabetic condition. Childhood-type diabetics will always need
> insulin because they make little or none of their own.

Hi there Colin,

You have haemochromotosis. It is hereditary. Nothing "caused" it. Long term,
untreated haemochromotosis can cause diabetes as well as some other serious
disorders. If you have not already done so, please ask you doctor to explain
to you exactly what this means, especially in regard to your diabetes. Ask
him why you have not been treated with venesection?
As for all the mixed up ideas of Dr McDougall, he could harm a lot of people
with diabetes with his advice.

For example, yes, T1 diabetes is an autoimmune disorder, where the immune
system attacks the insulin producing cells in the pancreas. BUT it has
nothing to do with consuming cow's milk!  What's more, whilst it was once
called Juvenile
diabetes, once insulin was discovered, it was also realised that adults
could also get T1 diabetes, at any age whatsoever. Previously no-one with T1
lived long enough for it to be clearly identified, and it was only diagnosed
in children.

One size does not fit all!

Annette
Loretta Eisenberg - 02 Oct 2005 23:22 GMT
Who is Dr. McDougall?

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Quentin Grady - 03 Oct 2005 03:53 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:22:20 -0400, Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta
Eisenberg) wrote:

>Who is Dr. McDougall?
>
>Loretta

G'day G'day Loretta,

Here is my take on Dr. McDougall from reading his website.  
http://www.drmcdougall.com/

Others may have other interpretations.

Dr. McDougall is an advocate of an ultra low fat, ultra low protein
diet. Whereas some attack the ADA diet for being too high in
carbohydrate, Dr McDougall attacks such diets as being too high in fat
and too high in protein. The ADA diet allows up to 30% fat by
calories. This is barely less than the current US average of 33%. He
quite correctly calls it a moderate fat diet.  His dietary advice
includes 7 to 10% fat by calorie intake.  This puts it in the same
category as Pritikin and others.

With regard to protein he surprisingly finds the 13 to 15% protein
typical in the US and the ADA diet as too high. He suggests it leads
to kidney failure in old age.  As you may guess others disagree
pointing out that some amino acids eg arginine found in larger
proportions in vegetable proteins repair kidney damage.

How does one achieve a diet with roughly 80% carbs, 10% protein, and
10% fat?   His answer is vegetables and fruit.   This is different
from grain based pyramids. The problem with grains is they tend to end
up overly processed.

Here we see him distancing his dietary recommendations from processed
carbs.   http://www.drmcdougall.com/news/high_carb_cancer_myth.html

Here we seem him distancing himself from vegetable fats.
http://www.drmcdougall.com/vegetable_fat.html

Basically he acknowledges omega-6 fats as much more dangerous than
omega-3 fats yet never the less suggests all fats contribute to breast
cancer.  Put simply, it isn't as simple as that.

His attacks on high protein diets follow fairly standard lines; early
weight loss is water loss ... people can't stick to high protein
diets, high protein diets lead to dietary imbalances including calcium
loss from bones, high protein foods are dangerous because they are
associated with high saturated fat and cholesterol intakes.  When you
personally know people who have followed sensible, relatively high
protein, low carb, moderate fat diets for three or four years after
losing forty kg and whose doctors only comment is that their total
cholesterol is too low, one has to doubt that all his fears turn out
to be realities.

Hope this helps,
Best wishes,


Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
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Thomas Muffaletto - 05 Oct 2005 23:28 GMT
Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow

Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index
Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies.
http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html

> This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and too high in protein. The ADA diet allows up to 30% fat by
> calories.

30% that is not true at all -
Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.  The total amount of fat
you eat should be based on the foods you like and your goals for eating
healthy and blood lipid (blood fats) and glucose control.  You need an
individualized eating plan.  For example, a young athlete with type 1
diabetes might need 4,000 calories a day during football season.  He
probably needs to eat 40% of his calories from fat, just to get all those
calories.  Even though he is eating a higher number of calories as fat, he
still should choose foods with less saturated fat and cholesterol and more
monounsaturated fat (such as olive oil, canola oil, avocado, nuts, or
olives).
its a YMMV thing -  they like dieititians dont believe one diet fits all (
where have i heard that before )
we are all individuals.
doctors and dietitians dont have an egenda to prove one diet over another.
they may not do their own research - most cant because it takes 1000's of
studies
to give even a small idea of what is going on.  but the do get their info
from places
that spend millions of dollars in research.
the ADA alone spent 18 million in 1999 and another $40 million in 2005.
yes they even bought a meter.

This is barely less than the current US average of 33%. He
> quite correctly calls it a moderate fat diet.
> His dietary advice
> includes 7 to 10% fat by calorie intake.  This puts it in the same
> category as Pritikin and others.

that might be close to what my dietitian told my wife to eat.
she was told to eat close to 1/2 of what I was told to eat.

> With regard to protein he surprisingly finds the 13 to 15% protein
> typical in the US and the ADA diet as too high.
>He suggests it leads
> to kidney failure in old age.  As you may guess others disagree
> pointing out that some amino acids eg arginine found in larger
> proportions in vegetable proteins repair kidney damage.

that would be very hard to prove.

> How does one achieve a diet with roughly 80% carbs, 10% protein, and
> 10% fat?

is that close to what most doctors would say someone with bad kidneys should
eat?

>His answer is vegetables and fruit.   This is different
> from grain based pyramids. The problem with grains is they tend to end
> up overly processed.

hell no I am not going I want my meat.
as far as grains go - yes some are overly processed others are not.
it depends on what you eat.

> Here we see him distancing his dietary recommendations from processed
> carbs.   http://www.drmcdougall.com/news/high_carb_cancer_myth.html
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> cholesterol is too low, one has to doubt that all his fears turn out
> to be realities.

well i see no need to follow his advice and I am not defending him at all.
but a lot of what he said is what my wife did to lower her cholestoral.
but the best advice my wife got in nutrition was to see a dietitian.
Signature

Tom
Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow

Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
Your American Diabetes Association
http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
http://community.diabetes.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=amdiabetesz&nav=index
Pictures of My motorcycle and I think 2 of my doggies.
http://www.adventurseofvtx1300c.com.50megs.com/photo.html

Quentin Grady - 07 Oct 2005 01:05 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:28:55 GMT, "Thomas Muffaletto"
<mrgantlet911@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> This post not CC'd by email
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>30% that is not true at all -

G'day G'day Tom,  

The question Loretta asked is "Who is Dr McDougall?"  

Dr McDougall happens to believe the ADA is making a general
recommendation of 30% calories fat.  

>Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.  

Your cut and paste give above confirms that Dr McDougall is reasonable
holding this belief.

>The total amount of fat
>you eat should be based on the foods you like and your goals for eating
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>monounsaturated fat (such as olive oil, canola oil, avocado, nuts, or
>olives).

Since Dr McDougal espouses an ultra low fat diet, 7 to 10% of calories
from fat, perhaps we shouldn't upset him by mentioning exceptions that
exceed the general ADA rule you quote. "Fat ought to make up about 30%
of your calories."

The paragraph you omitted

"Conversely, a small woman with type 2 diabetes who needs to lose some
weight, may need to keep the amount of fat she eats at about 25% of
calories or below to achieve her nutrition and diabetes goals."

Clearly 25% fat is still way, way higher than Dr McDougall's idea of
low fat.

[snip]

>> This is barely less than the current US average of 33%. He
>> quite correctly calls it a moderate fat diet.
>> His dietary advice includes 7 to 10% fat by calorie intake.
>> This puts it in the same category as Pritikin and others.
>
>that might be close to what my dietitian told my wife to eat.

Might be?  Either it is or it isn't.  

>she was told to eat close to 1/2 of what I was told to eat.

>> With regard to protein he surprisingly finds the 13 to 15% protein
>> typical in the US and the ADA diet as too high.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>that would be very hard to prove.

It is an ongoing controversy.  What is surprising is that despite the
large number of people who have asserted high protein causes kidney
failure convincing proof that high protein damages healthy kidneys has
been a long time coming.

>> How does one achieve a diet with roughly 80% carbs, 10% protein, and
>> 10% fat?

One almost has to include a significant proportion of fruit and go
vegetarian.

>is that close to what most doctors would say someone with bad kidneys should
>eat?

Possibly.  
Terminal diets are exceptional in nature. They tend to be imbalanced.

>> His answer is vegetables and fruit.   This is different
>> from grain based pyramids. The problem with grains is they tend to end
>> up overly processed.
>
>hell no I am not going I want my meat.

IMHO that is likely to be sensible.  I can't comment on you specific
circumstance but it is important for T2s on metformin to realise
metformin blocks Vit B12 absorption. Vit B12 can be obtained from
dairy and egg products but Dr McDougall is against dairy products.

>as far as grains go - yes some are overly processed others are not.
>it depends on what you eat.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>well i see no need to follow his advice and I am not defending him at all.

IMHO that is wise. If we click on the article expressing his ideas on
T2 diabetes ...
http://www.drmcdougall.com/science/diabetes.html
we find some disturbing comments.

Firstly there is the suggestion that adult onset diabetics should
NEVER take oral hypoglycemic agents.  

Secondly there are NO blood glucose guidelines for adult onset
diabetics who are not taking insulin.  The only guideline appears to
be for those taking insulin ie 150 mg/dl to 300 mg/dl.  

Notice that the timing of these levels is not mentioned.

>but a lot of what he said is what my wife did to lower her cholestoral.
>but the best advice my wife got in nutrition was to see a dietitian.

Is she a T1 or T2 diabetic or a non-diabetic?  

Best wishes,

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Thomas Muffaletto - 07 Oct 2005 20:24 GMT
> G'day G'day Tom,
>
> The question Loretta asked is "Who is Dr McDougall?"

i wasnt replying to her question to you but your comment of

"The ADA diet allows up to 30% fat by
>>> calories."

and that simply isnt true. as you have seen they can see the need for some
to have upto about 40% of their callories from fat.
and that is above "up to 30%."

> Dr McDougall happens to believe the ADA is making a general
> recommendation of 30% calories fat.

well he is right about that - a general recommendation of 30% but anyone
that read a few pages
on their web site would realize they dont want anyone to go to that web site
or any book to deveolop a diet.
or esle their simply wouldnt be a need to recommend dietitians as often as
they do.

>>Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.
>
> Your cut and paste give above confirms that Dr McDougall is reasonable
> holding this belief.

i wasnt questioning him but did point out that you saying "up to 30%" simply
isnt true.
30% is a general recommendation and not the maximum .

> Since Dr McDougal espouses an ultra low fat diet, 7 to 10% of calories
> from fat, perhaps we shouldn't upset him by mentioning exceptions that
> exceed the general ADA rule you quote. "Fat ought to make up about 30%
> of your calories."

I cant really picture a Dr. reading this group. so i dont think he will be
to upset.

> The paragraph you omitted
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Clearly 25% fat is still way, way higher than Dr McDougall's idea of
> low fat.

i left it out because it had nothing to do with you saying " that the ADA
allows up to 30% "
i simply gave an example when they might recommend 40% of calories from fat.
and clearly 30% fat is lower than 40% fat.
however I am glad you metioned that.  i hear just about every low carber
here
say the ADA thinks one size fits all and in this 1 thread i see a range of
recommendations
from 25% to 40% from the ADA - does atkins or bernstien or any other low car
book seller have such a wide range
of general recommendations?  so if anyone thinks a 1 size fits all its not
the leading organizations around the world
more like just those selling low carb books.

>>that might be close to what my dietitian told my wife to eat.
>
> Might be?  Either it is or it isn't.

very true

>>she was told to eat close to 1/2 of what I was told to eat.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> It is an ongoing controversy.

yes but if you look at who is saying what.  even the doctors that review
studies
not sponsered by beef, egg and cheese companies and clearly speak out in
favor of the low carb results in short term studies
always add the bit about " not enough informaton on the effects of long term
saftey for diets higher in fat"
its very hard to prove anything with any study and im sure you will agree
that at this point
more scientists around the world are in favor on low fat diets for long term
use than those
are in favor of high fat diets.
in the real world - the scientific world of nutrtion you can say its the
exact opposite of what goes on here.
in here there are more those in favor higher fat diets and saying it is
healthier than low fat diets
but in the scientific world after reviewing millions of dollors and hours of
research they are in favor
of diets low in fat.  who is right ?  i did the best I can over the past 3
years to teach myself how to live with it
but still cant help but think scientists know more.  a doctor can tell some
to take a medication and spend
an hour explaining it and how it works - some will feel they now know it all
others will know there is still much more to learn.
i doubt very much after that hour of only talking about the medication that
I or anyone reading this will be able to make
something equally as good..

What is surprising is that despite the
> large number of people who have asserted high protein causes kidney
> failure convincing proof that high protein damages healthy kidneys has
> been a long time coming.

there is lots of convincing evidence but your right there is no proof but
the same can be said
for those trying to prove diets higher in protien and fat are healthier in
the long run.
but there are plenty that have been convinced after reading reviewing
millions of dollars in research
and the many years of clynical data.
its not only the ADA but just about every organization for every organ in
your body
that thinks of the low fat diet as a better choice. and most will push you
to see a dietitian
not buy 1 of their books.

> IMHO that is likely to be sensible.  I can't comment on you specific
> circumstance but it is important for T2s on metformin to realise
> metformin blocks Vit B12 absorption. Vit B12 can be obtained from
> dairy and egg products but Dr McDougall is against dairy products.

i am not on any medications.  I hardly eat eggs but do like to have my lean
read meat.
except on sundays then its porterhouse city.

>>well i see no need to follow his advice and I am not defending him at all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Best wishes,

non diabetic and now that I have it - it is less likely she will have to
deal with it.

Signature

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Quentin Grady - 12 Oct 2005 09:38 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:24:24 GMT, "Thomas Muffaletto"
<mrgantlet911@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> G'day G'day Tom,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>to have upto about 40% of their callories from fat.
>and that is above "up to 30%."

G'day G'day Thomas,

It appears you are correct.  The American Dietetic Association and the
American Heart Foundation currently make the recommendation of up to
30% of calories by fat. The American Diabetic Association held a
similar position until recently. Their position is now more flexible.
Their expert consensus allows a combination of monounsaturated fat and
carbohydrate of approximately 60–70% of energy. If one had 55% of
calories from carbs then at most that gives 15% of monounsaturated
fat. Suggested polyunsaturated fats are put at 10%, saturated fats at
less than 10% or 7% depending on LDL levels.  That makes a total of
35% fat unless one reduces carbs.

 Let's examine that point together.  

To refresh our memories here is the quote you base your arguments on.

> Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.  
> The total amount of fat you eat should be based on the foods
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> saturated fat and cholesterol and more monounsaturated fat
> (such as olive oil, canola oil, avocado, nuts, or olives).

Firstly the general recommendation stated without any ifs or buts.

> Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.  

Put simply, the ADA makes the general recommendation for fat to make
up about 30% of calories.  Then it adds a bit of common sense ie
adjustment for individual needs.  Never the less the general
recommendation is for about 30% ie a moderate carb level not as is
sometimes stated a low fat level. Don't be fooled though by the
apparent flexibility the only area where fats are allowed to replace
carbs is with monounsaturated fats.  This coincides with the option I
have been suggesting to newbies here for years ... some carb can be
replaced with cis-monounsaturated fats eg olive, avocado, nuts and
olives. I am NOT a fan of canola oil because it is often stabilized by
partial hydrogenation that produces a contaminant called
trans-monounsaturated.  (The ADA along with many other authorities
recommends trans-monounsaturated fat should be kept to a minimum.)  

OK, now let's all look at the counter example quoted.

> For example, a young athlete with type 1 diabetes
> might need 4,000 calories a day during football season.  
 

INHO, the logic given is basically poppy cock to appeal to the
unthinking mind. If you are up for it you will find it helpful to take
a look at these US government guidelines.

http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/dga2005/document/html/chapter2.htm#table3
http://tinyurl.com/75eu6

The highest calorie recommended intake is for a 14 to 18 male and that
is 3200 kJ.  All other active people are 3000 kiloCalories or less.

Put simply, the diabetic featured in the counter example is
exceptional. Not only is the diabetic a T1 which makes the case
exceptional but his calorie intake is 25% higher than that recommended
for an active male.

If the footballer had been say a female gymnast then the maximum
recommended calorie intake for an active person is 2400 kCal which
makes 4000kCal 67% in excess of recommendations.

The requirements for calories forms part of their argument.  Actually
it doesn't really matter if footballers fit into some category of
"super" active and actually do require 4000 kCal per day. The point is
they are exceptions to the general recommendations.

OK, the real junko logic is ...
> He probably needs to eat 40% of his calories from fat, just to
> get all those calories.

Fat has a 125% higher calorific value per 100 g than carbohydrate or
protein.  Why doesn't this mean one should eat a high fat diet if one
needs a high calories intake?   Well water has 100% less calories than
carbohydrate and real foods that people eat a mixture of fat,
carbohydrate, protein, water and fibre amongst other things.

http://www.avocado.org/health-nutrition/nutrition-facts.php
gives 55 kCal per 30 grams.
That equates to 183 kCal per 100 g.

http://www.weightlossforall.com/calories-bread.htm
gives a range of values ALL in excess of 216 kCal per 100 g.
The 216 kCal per 100 g is for a truly low fat bread described as
wholemeal bread.  

Once the junko logic has been stripped from the ADA argument we see
that is would have been more appropriate to recommend eating wholemeal
bread if getting sufficient calories was their concern.

> Even though he is eating a higher number of calories as fat,
> he still should choose foods with less  saturated fat and cholesterol
> and more monounsaturated fat(such as olive oil, canola oil, avocado, nuts, or olives).

Well the good news is that the ADA DOES recognise the Mediterranean
diet, something the rest of the world did years ago without the
expenditure of millions of dollars.  I was well aware they had been
part sponsors for a high oleic acid diet(the cis-monounsaturated found
in olive oil amongst other things) and that it had been highly
successful in changing certain parameters associated with diabetic
risk factors.  I was mistaken in thinking it hadn't appeared in their
simplified public recommendations. It has been in the expert opinions
for quite a few years. Sort of now you see, now you don't.

>> Dr McDougall happens to believe the ADA is making a general
>> recommendation of 30% calories fat.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>or esle their simply wouldnt be a need to recommend dietitians as often as
>they do.

Fair enough point.

>>>Fat ought to make up about 30% of your calories.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>isnt true.
>30% is a general recommendation and not the maximum .

>> Since Dr McDougal espouses an ultra low fat diet, 7 to 10% of calories
>> from fat, perhaps we shouldn't upset him by mentioning exceptions that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I cant really picture a Dr. reading this group. so i dont think he will be
>to upset.

He might but its pretty certain he won't post here.  Imagine for a
moment the raucous duck impersonations from the gallery of regulars
and the insistent questions on post prandial blood glucose levels when
one has a C:P:F ratio similar to 80:10:10

>> The paragraph you omitted
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>the leading organizations around the world
>more like just those selling low carb books.

The 40% calories from fat is

A exceptional, the ADA quotes it for a T1 super athlete.

B comes with tight restrictions, that is the tolerance of fats is
restricted to cis-monounsaturated fats which in practice means oleic
acid.

I happen to agree with their tight restrictions to oleic acid and am
personally comfortable with them being tighter.  I wouldn't restrict
the replace of carbs by oleic acid to super active T1 males, though.
IMHO, it makes sense for overweight sedentary T2s ... at least it does
to those who can heed the restrictions.

>>>that might be close to what my dietitian told my wife to eat.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>>>she was told to eat close to 1/2 of what I was told to eat.

Well I guess  we shall never know whether in fact she eats close to
half the fat you eat ... unless you do some number crunching and are
more forthcoming with the information.  

>>>> With regard to protein he surprisingly finds the 13 to 15% protein
>>>> typical in the US and the ADA diet as too high.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>more scientists around the world are in favor on low fat diets for long term
>use than those are in favor of high fat diets.

This comment I find most fascinating.  In your posts you have praised
the money the ADA has spent on nutrition research and pointed out that
they are now including the replacement of carbs by monounsaturated
fats as a HEALTHY option.  You have made much of the rather
exceptional example of a T1 footballer having 40% of calories by fat
yet somehow deep down you still believe the ADA recommends a low fat
diet and that this is the prevailing scientific opinion.

Firstly of course the ADA general recommendation is for a moderate fat
diet.  

Secondly they don't say a thing in their recommendation about "not
enough information on the effects of long term safety for diets higher
in fat" when they restrict fat substitution to oleic acid.

>in the real world - the scientific world of nutrtion you can say its the
>exact opposite of what goes on here.

I think you are generalizing.  

My recommendations have been for T2 diabetics to be aware of the
option of replacing some carbs with cis-monounsaturated fats from
essentially unprocessed sources.  There's nothing particular
impressive about that, it is simply that I've aligned myself with the
scientific world of nutrition in this matter. My impression is that in
ASD there are many who have adopted a diet that uses the same general
principle. Some have found this option for themselves from reading the
literature. Some have adopted the principle from following the
examples of success enjoyed by others.  

There are some who DON'T except the notion of restricting the
replacement of some carbs with cis-monounsaturated fats. Some of these
are neo-Atkinites. They exist but don't appear to be in the majority
here. Perhaps it is a matter of perception ie perhaps they irritate
you more.

For years I made it pretty plain that I regard the followers of Atkins
as lacking in ambition.  IMHO it is so easy to improve upon.  South
Beach is one improvement.  The Hamptons Diet is another.  BOTH go
along the scientific community to approve the replacement of
carbohydrates with oleic acid.  

>in here there are more those in favor higher fat diets and saying it is
>healthier than low fat diets
>but in the scientific world after reviewing millions of dollors and hours of
>research they are in favor
>of diets low in fat.  

The ADA favours moderate fat even if they call it low fat.

>who is right ?  

And for whom?  

The Okinawans who have until recently had four times the number of
centenarians than the mainland Japanese have a diet that is about 23%
protein, 22% fat and 50% carbs.  Note that their protein level is
higher and their fat lower that typical.

The ADA position is,
"No evidence to suggest that usual protein intake (15–20% of total
energy) be modified if renal function is normal"
(B level evidence)

The people of Crete who were previously had the healthiest diet as
assessed by longevity had up to 40% of calories from fat mostly oleic
acid from olive, almonds and now avocados.

The point is that percentages of macronutrients aren't as important as
some people would make out. Work it out with a dietitian if you like
and ultimately check it out with reality.  Each of us is different.
The majority opinion here seems to be to test, test, test and use that
feed back to decide the composition issue.  If people are willing to
accept some restrictions and use some common sense to get a good
mineral and vitamin intake the truth appears to be that there is a
wide latitude for individual adjustment.

BTW, IMHO it is what else is with those macronutrients and WHICH fats
and WHICH proteins one eats that matter more ... that and the reality
of how a particular composition works out for you.

[snip]

[repetition snipped]

[Snipped, my comments on why McDougall's claims should not be taken at
face value]

>non diabetic and now that I have it - it is less likely she will have to
>deal with it.

Good luck with that.  I was curious to know because in general
non-diabetics have much greater tolerance to lower fat diets.
It becomes less true if beta cell death increases, for whatever
reason. Thank you for the information. It helps me follow your
comments and assess their relevance to T2 diabetics.  

Best wishes,

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Thomas Muffaletto - 12 Oct 2005 23:58 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> American Heart Foundation currently make the recommendation of up to
> 30% of calories by fat.

i found an example of where they say someone may need up to 35%.
but what is the most important thing for both groups you mention is the
importance
of working with dietitians.

> Put simply, the ADA makes the general recommendation for fat to make
> up about 30% of calories.  Then it adds a bit of common sense ie
> adjustment for individual needs.

Exactly :)

Signature

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Exercise Today = Life Tomorrow

Information you can trust from the diabetes experts...
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http://www.diabetes.org/home.jsp
the American Diabetes Association's Message Boards
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Quentin Grady - 13 Oct 2005 01:12 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 22:58:00 GMT, "Thomas Muffaletto"
<mrgantlet911@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> This post not CC'd by email
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>but what is the most important thing for both groups you mention is the
>importance of working with dietitians.

G'day G'day Thomas,

And I'd assume you would also support the idea that it is most
important for dieticians to base their recommendations on expert
opinion.  Put simply in an ideal world the dieticians are retailers
tailoring the recommendations of those qualified to wholesale expert
opinion.  

This of course is an assumption on my part.  Perhaps you think it is
OK for dieticians to ignore expert opinion and only explore a limited
number of options. I would like to think a professional dietician
offers their clients options that fit within the guidelines of expert
opinion. I'm am rather leery of the idea that dieticians should make
the final decision.  OK, I am basing my thoughts upon experience with
other professionals eg doctors.  In most cases the good ones present
an number of options for treatment.  

>> Put simply, the ADA makes the general recommendation for fat to make
>> up about 30% of calories.  Then it adds a bit of common sense ie
>> adjustment for individual needs.
>
>Exactly :)

Happiness is!

Best wishes,

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Ma¢k - 13 Oct 2005 02:09 GMT
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:12:16 +1300, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> Huffed and Puffed the following into the
madness of usenet:

>This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>tailoring the recommendations of those qualified to wholesale expert
>opinion.  

the funny thing about Tom and dieticians is that he has never seen one
specifically for his diet.  He's only following his wife's diet and he
gained most of the wait back that he had lost.

that's not being mean, just stating the facts.  

Tom needs to follow his own advise and go to a dietician for his own
needs, not simply copy his wife's diet.

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Loretta Eisenberg - 07 Oct 2005 19:49 GMT
Quentin, thank a lot.  Is there such a thing as too low cholesterol and
if so, what is it. thanks.

I personally believe that moderation in everything is the key to a happy
life.  Too bad I dont do that all the time.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Quentin Grady - 08 Oct 2005 03:57 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 14:49:20 -0400, Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta
Eisenberg) wrote:

>Quentin, thank a lot.  Is there such a thing as too low cholesterol and
>if so, what is it. thanks.

G'day G'day Loretta,

Probably. Cholesterol isn't some unnatural poison. Cholesterol is a
building block for several hormones.  That said, the question gets
tricky.  Statistically speaking people with very low cholesterol have
a reduced life expectancy.  In practice this doesn't mean anything.
Various terminal illnesses cause low blood cholesterol.  Those who
don't have terminal illnesses but have low blood cholesterol appear to
be as healthy as anyone else.  There some other oddities that show up
statistically eg death by violence from other people is more common in
those with low blood cholesterol.  It is thought these anomalies occur
simply because deviations from the norm are more common in small
populations than large populations.  The point is, "Don't attach
significance to them."  

As for those that lower their blood cholesterol by use of statins I
know of no evidence to suggest that one can over do it.  Others might
hold a different view.  It is a not a subject that has particularly
interested me so I may have overlooked some fact or other.  

Put simply, IMHO worry is likely to more problematic.

>I personally believe that moderation in everything is the key to a happy
>life.  Too bad I dont do that all the time.

So you do moderation in moderation.  <grin>
Good on you,

>Loretta

Best wishes,
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Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
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"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Loretta Eisenberg - 08 Oct 2005 20:19 GMT
Thanks a lot Quentin  You are just so smart.

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.
Colin Hammond - 09 Oct 2005 01:00 GMT
Quentin seems one of the most level headed in these groups!!! his post
are normally worth reading, I even passed on too McDougall his comments

> Thanks a lot Quentin  You are just so smart.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
> terrorism.
Quentin Grady - 09 Oct 2005 05:13 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:00:26 GMT, Colin Hammond <niloch@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Quentin seems one of the most level headed in these groups!!!

G'day G'day Colin,

Thanks for the compliment.  Such a description brings with it a
responsibility and part of that is not to let what appears to be
nonsense go unchallenged.

>his post are normally worth reading,

Normally?  I hope they are always relevant to someone, however no
posts are going to be relevant to everyone.

>I even passed on too McDougall his comments

Fascinating.  

I take it you have established some sort of personal rapport or
financial relationship with Dr McDougall. You might want to clarify
that matter.

IMHO, Dr McDougall is worth reading not because he has found THE
answer to T2 diabetes because it seems certain that he hasn't.  As a
matter of fact I believe his approach deliberately employs some
subterfuge to obscure some grievous shortcomings in his approach ...
for instance his website doesn't set post prandial goals for T2s. My
guess is that with a diet that has something like 80% of calories from
carbs his patients aren't going to meet the guidelines for post
prandial glucose set by such recognised authorities as the American
Association of Clinical Endocrinologists. I say, "guess" because one
has to deal with inferences eg suggested use of urine glucose level as
an alternative to blood glucose testing. Whatever.

The prime reason for reading Dr McDougall ... if one is looking for
factual information that can be relied on because it is likely to have
been severely peer reviewed on a very personal level ... is his
comments on the foundations of belief for other diets.  

For instance see, http://www.drmcdougall.com/debate.html

<McDougal>
> Sears: Eating fat doesn't make you fat. We are consuming less fat than
> 10 years ago and getting fatter, therefore dietary fat cannot be the culprit.

> Truth: We are consuming the same amount (actually a little more) of fat now
> than before. But, in addition, we are consuming over 250 more calories of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The reason for the rise in obesity is no mystery--Americans eat a high-calorie,
> high-fat diet.
</McDougall>

BTW I'm glad his approach worked for you.  
However the cause of your diabetes was MOST unusual and it should not
be inferred that the success you enjoyed will happen for others.

Best wishes,

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Chris J. - 09 Oct 2005 06:10 GMT
>This post not CC'd by email

>>his post are normally worth reading,
>
>Normally?  I hope they are always relevant to someone, however no
>posts are going to be relevant to everyone.

Just FYI, Quentin, my newsreader has a folders feature, and one of
those folders is called Quentin, where I save your posts, so I have
them handy to review, which I do often.  
Quentin Grady - 09 Oct 2005 07:03 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 22:10:45 -0700, Chris J. <chris@noadress.com>
wrote:

>Just FYI, Quentin, my newsreader has a folders feature, and one of
>those folders is called Quentin, where I save your posts, so I have
>them handy to review, which I do often.  

G'day G'day Chris,

Thanks. One of the curious features that is sometimes overlooked with
support groups is that much of it about giving and receiving support.
Sometimes the latter is forgotten or it is thought that only newbies
need support. When we reflect on it seems so obvious that there are
many seemingly tireless posters who give unstinting support. Perhaps
your post will nudge others to support the supporters.

FWIIW, at the moment I'm having somewhat of a quiet time.  Partly it
is because I've been preparing new subject material for students which
means I've had less time to post.  Secondly, asd has been somewhat
quiet in terms of nutritional topics I can get my teeth into.

Best wishes and again thank you,

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Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Chris J. - 10 Oct 2005 02:16 GMT
>This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Thanks. One of the curious features that is sometimes overlooked with
>support groups is that much of it about giving and receiving support.

What? Support, on a support group? :-)
Seriously, I quite agree.

>Sometimes the latter is forgotten or it is thought that only newbies
>need support. When we reflect on it seems so obvious that there are
>many seemingly tireless posters who give unstinting support. Perhaps
>your post will nudge others to support the supporters.

I hope so, but I have my doubts for technical reasons. Many usenet
users sort posts by thread, and this is an older thread so less likely
to be read. Just my guess....

>FWIIW, at the moment I'm having somewhat of a quiet time.  Partly it
>is because I've been preparing new subject material for students which
>means I've had less time to post.

Are you teaching electrical engineering, or did I mis-remember that?

> Secondly, asd has been somewhat
>quiet in terms of nutritional topics I can get my teeth into.

Nutritional topics.. that you can get your TEETH into... I do love a
good pun, and that certainly is one... :-)

>Best wishes and again thank you,

Thank you, and thank you again for all your many posts. I can't
express how helpful both your information and your support was to me
when I was in my early days here. Thanks...
Ricavito - 10 Oct 2005 02:58 GMT
Secondly, asd has been somewhat
> quiet in terms of nutritional topics I can get my teeth into.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Quentin, I also enjoy your thoughtful posts and save them for
reference.  You always mention interesting herbs and plants and so I
wonder if you have any information about the nutritional or medicinal
qualities, if any, of shiso?  Here in California, I only see it in
Japanese restaurants and that is the green variety.  I've tried to grow
it (the red variety), but without much success.  I find it a very
pleasant herb especially wrapped around a bit of sushi.  It seems
soothing to the digstive system too, similarly to ginger. But I can't
seem to find out much about it--Googling just turns up botanical info
and not much else.

TIA, Ricavito
Quentin Grady - 12 Oct 2005 06:10 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 9 Oct 2005 18:58:12 -0700, "Ricavito"
<newsgroupreader@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> Secondly, asd has been somewhat
>> quiet in terms of nutritional topics I can get my teeth into.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>TIA, Ricavito

G'day G'day Ricavito,

Firstly my apologies in taking a day to reply.  I thought about the
issues of how to find relevant information on shiso.  To eliminate
many less relevant hits I went to http://scholar.google.com 
This proved frustrating at first because many of the hits were for
BOOKS.  

However, one article gave the scientific name Perilla frutescens.

When I tried
perilla frutescens diabetic
I got 13 hits

To my amazement there was one hot hit.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=7
641310&dopt=Citation

http://tinyurl.com/9cewr

Aldose reductase inhibitors re crucial for slowing down most of the
complications of T2 diabetes associated with the eye such as
cataracts. It could also be the answer for neuropathy, nephropathy and
retinopathy because these involve the polyol pathway.
My standard answer has always been quercetin from onions.
Shiso provides an alternative for those who can't eat onions.

Some days are fantastic. This is one of them.
Thanks for the invitation.  
Glad I didn't put it in the too hard basket.

BTW. My attempts at growing it in the garden have only been partially
successful. It seemed tough compared with basil.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Ricavito - 13 Oct 2005 03:35 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>  On 9 Oct 2005 18:58:12 -0700, "Ricavito"
> <newsgroupreader@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> G'day G'day Ricavito,
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Oh, what excellent information, thank you Quentin!

I tried to grow purple shiso in a container last time, and I think it
didn't like being croweded, so I will try planting some green shiso in
our spring garden next year.  

Ricavito
Quentin Grady - 13 Oct 2005 04:12 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 12 Oct 2005 19:35:56 -0700, "Ricavito"
<newsgroupreader@frontiernet.net> wrote:

>Oh, what excellent information, thank you Quentin!
>
>I tried to grow purple shiso in a container last time, and I think it
>didn't like being croweded, so I will try planting some green shiso in
>our spring garden next year.  

G'day G'day Ricavito,

How do you prepare it for eating?  The leaves seemed tough on the
plants I grew. Don't know if it was the growing conditions or the
preparation. One great thing about it, is had a long traditional use
in Japan.

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Ricavito - 13 Oct 2005 17:51 GMT
> This post not CC'd by email
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Howdy Quentin,

It's not a tender leaf like basil but the younger leaves are a bit more
tender.  It does leave a bit of a dry chewy mouth feel so I always eat
it with something contrasting.  I like it chopped in a fresh greens mix
with vinagrette and it adds a bit of spiciness.  The only other way I
have had it to date is with a young leaf pinched off the bush and
wrapped around a bite size piece of sushi-grade fish, such as ahi or
yellow tail or albacore. Add a little wasabi and soy sauce and that's a
treat of a meal. It's also wonderful with fresh scallops, a dollop of
mayonaaise, and some rice and rolled in a piece of nori.  Hmmmm,
getting hungry now!  

Ricavito
Quentin Grady - 13 Oct 2005 19:55 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On 13 Oct 2005 09:51:36 -0700, "Ricavito"
<newsgroupreader@frontiernet.net> wrote:

>Howdy Quentin,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Ricavito

G'day G'day Ricavito,

Thanks.  I'll just have to get my act together and find some fresh
seed for sowing this Spring.  

Best wishes,

Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Colin Hammond - 09 Oct 2005 20:31 GMT
> I take it you have established some sort of personal rapport or
> financial relationship with Dr McDougall. You might want to clarify
> that matter.

I just contacted him for his help in the matter of T2, because I would
rather cure if I can than just manage all my life, I am lazy, I would
rather not put holes in my body to take blood, so I would like to stop
it!!! another I like to read is a Dr Hans Diehl, who also point out T2
can be reversed by diet and exercise!!

Colin Hammond

> This post not CC'd by email
>  On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:00:26 GMT, Colin Hammond <niloch@hotmail.com>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Best wishes,
RK - 10 Oct 2005 02:28 GMT
| I just contacted him for his help in the matter of T2, because I would
| rather cure if I can than just manage all my life, I am lazy, I would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
|
| Colin Hammond

Mind if i'm blunt? No didn't think so...

No matter how many ways you're going to try to slice that cake Colin
no matter how much $$$ you spend on wasteful books that you could
be taking that $$$ and buying nutrious foods with but instead making
LYING SACKS OF sh.t even richer... YOU are the REASON... take the
problem by the horns and begin to manage it.

Sorry to tell you this... there is NO CURE! there is no REVERSING dm...
there is ONLY CONTROLLING your destiny... either quit the trying to
get quick cure scams or buck it up and realize reality... and listen to the
folks here and figure out a proper diet, get the right meds to help protect
your kidneys and heart... start a exercise program and above all...
TEST TEST TEST..... tough luck Colin... you have to test to achieve good
control... and I'm a T1... testing STILL 8-10x a day and hmm no water spurts
out my finger tips yet... guess your theory of "fingers full of holes" is
full
of it's own holes.

... *Note: this post is for Newbies who also think there might be a "quick
cure" just ask Guy abt the quick cures... or better yet, ask him how he
likes
only having one leg instead... because THAT is what you'll get if you don't
buck up.
Ma¢k - 10 Oct 2005 15:11 GMT
>> I take it you have established some sort of personal rapport or
>> financial relationship with Dr McDougall. You might want to clarify
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Colin Hammond

I hope you enjoy pissing your money down the drain now and your eye
sight and kidneys and heart down the drain later.

That's what McDougal and his ilk will get you.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

Quentin Grady - 10 Oct 2005 19:13 GMT
This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:31:54 GMT, Colin Hammond <niloch@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> I take it you have established some sort of personal rapport or
>> financial relationship with Dr McDougall. You might want to clarify
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Colin Hammond

G'day G'day Colin,

  Your post is important for newbies to see. Those who have been
around a while know the reality ... and some of them will be only too
happy to tell you it. There is NO cure for T2 diabetes, at least for
the common type. One has to manage it for the rest of one's life.
That's the bottom line.  Your being lazy doesn't change reality, it
simply lets you live a while in denial. Your cells won't excuse you
because you are lazy.  Your vital organs won't excuse you because you
are lazy.  Your eyes won't. The nerves going to the peripheral nerves
in your feet won't.  

OK, why is your post so important for newbies to see.  Well first
there is the matter of delusion. Sometimes it isn't so easy for a
newbie to see how someone who holds out the promise of a cure is
deluding themselves or unwittingly perhaps, attempting to delude
others.  In your case it is clear.

Firstly you have a most unusual ie rare, form of diabetes, one caused
by iron overload. It is a delusion to think that what you have
achieved can be transferred to others who don't have this rare form.

Secondly, you are not forthcoming with post prandial test results. As
I have spelt out already, Dr McDougall seems to be deliberately
obfuscating on the issue of post prandial blood glucose levels.  If
one doesn't measure, one won't know if the post prandial blood glucose
levels are outside currently accepted guidelines such as those set
down by the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, the
AACE. The issue doesn't go away because some doctor somewhere chooses
not to believe in these guidelines.  It should act as a warning not to
follow their advice.  Unfortunately for some newbies, they don't
recognise these warning signs so don't heed them and unwittingly
follow a path of letting high blood glucose levels do damage.

Thirdly, there is a the little matter of sequential incongruity.  You
state quite categorically that you are lazy, yet you are opting for
diet and EXERCISE without oral medication.  Something doesn't quite
add up there.  There are folks who MANAGE the T2 diabetes for many
years with diet and exercise. They, however, have deleted the notion
of laziness being acceptable from their thought processes.

Best wishes,
Signature

Quentin Grady       ^  ^  /
New Zealand,       >#,#< [
                   / \ /\    
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Ma¢k - 03 Oct 2005 20:11 GMT
>This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Carbohydrates surprisingly stimulate insulin activity, thereby lowering
>blood sugar levels, and making the diabetic feel better.

thanks for wasting bandwidth with this stupidity.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

Richard R. - 05 Oct 2005 22:03 GMT
Maybe the diabetic gene died out in areas where peoples diets are
based mostly on starches?

>This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>your diabetic condition. Childhood-type diabetics will always need
>insulin because they make little or none of their own.
Richard
Diagnosed Type 2 March 16,2005  A1C 11  220lbs

Working on the numbers!
Ma¢k - 05 Oct 2005 23:09 GMT
>Maybe the diabetic gene died out in areas where peoples diets are
>based mostly on starches?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Working on the numbers!

Richard Colin is flat out full of sh.t on his type 2 advice.  He got a
couple of things right, loosing weight is very helpful to reducing BGs
by helping to reduce insulin resistance.  But he doesn't understand
how that process actually works.  And yes, type 1s (childhood
diabetics is an incorrect term) will always need insulin.  The rest of
his crap is just that, crap.

He starts his bad advice with a flat out lie.

Signature

Mâck©®
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
...Theodore Roosevelt

        (o o)  
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."

Jesus never hated anyone.

rleone@hotmail.com - 11 Oct 2005 16:35 GMT
Dear Colin:
  Hi! Hate to tell you this, but Dr. McDougall's advice seems quite
cultish -- and I mean that in the nastiest possible way. On one front
it's got a simple explaination for all the problems of the world, and
on the other it tries to separate us from the more complicated and
messy alternatives. In particular, although I'm not fond of the way the
medical profession has been turned into pill-pushers, the usual
diabetes patients' interaction with the docs is based on
pharmacological concerns. So stopping taking oral antihyperglycemics
sounds like a double whammy -- one to keep us away from medical
professionals who can see how we're doing (by blood test or
complications check) and the other is to increase the amount of cash in
our pockets to pay for Dr. McDougall's products.

> This is the most logical and well rounded advice I have read!!!
SNIP
IN particular the extreme high carb diet sounds like a modification of
one old pre-insulin doc's advice to feed diabetics with sugar -- to
hasten the inevitable end! Dead patients don't testify....

Yup, in a BAD mood today.

Robert Leone
 
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