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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2008

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Oils and amalgam fillings

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Robert - 02 Jun 2008 13:38 GMT
I read of some new technique that some people are using of swishing their
teeth with some kind of vegetable oil every day for 15-20 minutes.  They say
it improves their gums.  Sounds harmless enough, even if not effective.

However, some also said that this technique can loosen amalgam fillings
because the oil leeches the mercury out.

Is it possible that long-term exposure of teeth to oils can actually loosen
silver fillings?!
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:45 GMT
Who lives under a bridge and charges a fee to cross?

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>I read of some new technique that some people are using of swishing their
> teeth with some kind of vegetable oil every day for 15-20 minutes.  They
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> loosen
> silver fillings?!
Robert - 02 Jun 2008 16:46 GMT
> Who lives under a bridge and charges a fee to cross?

ummm... can someone without a chip on his shoulder answer my question?
Newbie@bix.nex - 03 Jun 2008 03:26 GMT
>Who lives under a bridge and charges a fee to cross?

HRC or BHO ?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 02 Jun 2008 17:06 GMT
> I read of some new technique that some people are using of swishing their
> teeth with some kind of vegetable oil every day for 15-20 minutes.  They say
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Is it possible that long-term exposure of teeth to oils can actually loosen
> silver fillings?!

    No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
oil for 15-20?

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Robert - 02 Jun 2008 21:20 GMT
> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
> oil for 15-20?

It sounds nutty to me too. But actually I phrased the question wrong. What I
was really asking is are there foods or liquids that are known or suspected
to loosen amalgam fillings? Resin fillings? (Not including chewing on hard
candy or ice cubes :)
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 02 Jun 2008 21:55 GMT
>> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
>> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to loosen amalgam fillings? Resin fillings? (Not including chewing on hard
> candy or ice cubes :)

    Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth
structure surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Robert - 03 Jun 2008 03:12 GMT
> Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth structure
> surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.

Can you give some examples?  Is there any reason to suspect that vegetable
oils might be one of them?
Steven Bornfeld - 03 Jun 2008 03:57 GMT
>> Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth structure
>> surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.
>
> Can you give some examples?  Is there any reason to suspect that vegetable
> oils might be one of them?

    I'd go with John's cola hypothesis.

Steve
Newbie@bix.nex - 03 Jun 2008 03:30 GMT
>    Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth
>structure surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.
>
>Steve

HCl would be my choice.
Steven Bornfeld - 03 Jun 2008 03:59 GMT
>>     Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth
>> structure surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.
>>
>> Steve
>
> HCl would be my choice.

    I have seen that--with eating disorders.  I'm guessing you have too.

Steve
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 00:21 GMT
>>>     Only if you keep in mind that some fluids will destroy the tooth
>>> structure surrounding the fillings--that'll loosen 'em.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Steve

Actually one of my son-in-laws was duped into taking a sip of "water"
that was in the battery filling room. He said it was HCl but suspect
it was H2SO4- . Luckily he did not swallow.

Nevertheless the enamel was chalky and highly friable.  We
made some custom fluoride trays for him and provided 0.4% SnF gel.
The enamel remineralized and to this day there are no sequelae.
Eight years and counting.

Yep, have treated the anorexia/bulimia patient.
Here's my take...

Clinically, prominent acidic erosion of the lingual surfaces
of the anterior region is very common. That finding in conjunction
with other recognizable symptoms, may the first clue to the
dental practitioner of this disorder.

Occlusal surface acidic erosion is likely to be indicative of longer
term sequelae of the pathologic process and palatal cusp erosion
since enamel is thicker in the upper molars, may be considered by
some as pathognomonic.

In extreme cases mandibular lingual cusp erosion will also be present.
Due to *protection* by the tongue during 'purging' the lower molars
are somewhat 'preserved' for a longer period of time, but are not
immune to acidic damage.

We can help mediate the damage to the teeth, but the underlying
factors causing the behavior must be addressed.
Treatment of the psychological nature is well beyond the scope
of dental practice. However we must at least inform the patient
of our clinical findings and the diagnosis that is suggested.

Informing a patient of our findings, and especially in the presence
of a family member or caretaker can sometimes be enough to
effect seeking treatment for the underlying causes of this disorder.
Simplicio - 04 Jun 2008 01:51 GMT
On Jun 2, 4:55 pm, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
> >> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
> >> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 718-258-5001

Do you have any studies showing Hg release as a function of exposure
to bacteria , various liquids etc....uhh yepp, that's what I thought.

Rob,
Keep in mind that dentists do not have a remote clue about the
chemistry
of amalgam and mercury, it's like asking a blind man what time it is..
in fact even hot coffee has been shown to greatly elevate Hg release
from
amalgam for hours, but don't worry about any liquid loosening the Hg.
It
comes off the filling all by itself, as a vapor! (and then will
dissolve in any liquid you swoosh around).
Robert - 04 Jun 2008 04:20 GMT
> Rob, Keep in mind that dentists do not have a remote clue about the
> chemistry of amalgam and mercury, it's like asking a blind man what time
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It comes off the filling all by itself, as a vapor! (and then will
> dissolve in any liquid you swoosh around).

Well, let me turn that around for you. What independent studies do you have
demonstrating any of your claims? For example, here are a few studies that
suggest that amalgam fillings have better longevity than composites. If the
mercury dissipated like that wouldn't you expect a higher failure rate?

http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/6/775
http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/8/1127
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0722.1992.tb01810.x
(pretty old)

As for the claims about amalgam fillings I only see unsubstantiated
pronouncements on holistic web sites.
Steven Fawks - 04 Jun 2008 05:11 GMT
If the
> mercury dissipated like that wouldn't you expect a higher failure rate?

Who said logic was involved in this argument?

;-)
Steve
Simplicio - 04 Jun 2008 18:31 GMT
> > Rob, Keep in mind that dentists do not have a remote clue about the
> > chemistry of amalgam and mercury, it's like asking a blind man what time
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Well, let me turn that around for you. What independent studies do you have
> demonstrating any of your claims?

Such as ? Coffe increases Hg release rate, that is well known. It's
also well known
that Amalgam continously emits a vapor of hg-it has a vapor pressure.
you might
want to check out Boyd Haley's website or the large German study, the
tubigen
study. In fact their are tons of studies.

> For example, here are a few studies that
> suggest that amalgam fillings have better longevity than composites. If the
> mercury dissipated like that wouldn't you expect a higher failure rate?

Well, let me ask you this. The Sun is basically a nuclear reactor.
hydrogen is
constantly converted to sunlight. Does that mean that if the Sun does
lose hydrogen, in a few years
it's lights out? Actually the amount of Hg released from a typical
filling, say as a vapor
is a fraction of the total hg content of the filling. I think its in
the neighborhood of 3-100 ug per day
and a typical filling has about a gram of Hg. You can do the math. The
reason that fillings can lose half their
Hg over many years , is because if you look at microscopic photos of
the grains in a filling you will
see that the other metallic bonds can retain their structure and
strength, even in areas which lose
Hg. I.e the Hg level is not critical to maintaining the structural
integrity of the filling.

As for whether I would expect a higher failure rate, even the ADA
recommends they
be replaced every 10 years or so, but I wouldn't expect a filling
which has lost 10-50% of
it's Hg necessarily to fail. In fact fillings expand, even while they
lose Hg! A filling that has lost
a lot of Hg might have a greater change of cracking, I suppose, but
they are made of metal
and metal is pretty strong .

> http://jada.ada.org/cgi/content/abstract/138/6/775http://jada.ada.org/cgi/conten
t/abstract/135/8/1127http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-072
2.1992.tb0
...
> (pretty old)

Yeah I don't have time to look at that, its probably aDA propaganda...

> As for the claims about amalgam fillings I only see unsubstantiated
> pronouncements on holistic web sites.

That's because you only get your information from the ADA! Go to the
FDA, there have
been thousands of adverse reactions reports (which they never
investigate). In fact
they held an FDA hearing two years ago. The expert committe did not
concur with
ADA claims of safety. A huge study was done in Germany documenting
cases of
large release of Hg from fillings. Go to Boyd Haleys' website (he is
former U of kentucky
chemistry head). He's got tons of scientific references. If you think
that fillings don't
release significant amounts of Hg , id really like to make a
substantial wager.
Of course the fact that due to filling contruction, galvanic action
etc some people might get larger doses
is a separate question from what the Hg dose is from an average
filling. That is a question of
scientific certitude not a "holistic claim". It's about 80% of your
average elemental Hg exposure,
What effect that would have on an individual is obviously not an easy
question to quantify.
Robert - 04 Jun 2008 21:01 GMT
> "Simplicio" <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote in message

> Such as ? Coffe increases Hg release rate, that is well known. It's

Where? Site one study for me? Here is one study that, while raising
questions about Amalgam fillings, refutes the coffee claim:
http://jdr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/77/3/461

Ditto.

> In fact their are tons of studies.

Please site one. All the studies that I have seen cannot find any smoking
gun, while in fairness, they do raise questions.  One question that occurs
to me is, do we ingest more mercury from the seafood we eat than we do from
the amalgam fillings in our mouths?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 04 Jun 2008 21:50 GMT
>> "Simplicio" <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ditto.

    Heat will naturally increase release of mercury vapor from amalgams.
Of course, the duration of the heat is generally pretty small.  I have
never seen any detectable increase in oxidation of amalgams in heavy
coffee drinkers.  I've never seen a study comparing the stability of
amalgam in exposure to certain foods.  My guess is that the best
compounds for sequestering mercury from amalgam would be
sulfur-containing foods, such as egg yolks.

>> In fact their are tons of studies.
>
> Please site one. All the studies that I have seen cannot find any smoking
> gun, while in fairness, they do raise questions.  One question that occurs
> to me is, do we ingest more mercury from the seafood we eat than we do from
> the amalgam fillings in our mouths?

    Most absorption of mercury from amalgams is almost certainly through
the lungs.  Most absorption from seafood is through the gut, in the form
of methylmercury.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Simplicio - 05 Jun 2008 00:42 GMT
> > "Simplicio" <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > Such as ? Coffe increases Hg release rate, that is well known. It's
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to me is, do we ingest more mercury from the seafood we eat than we do from
> the amalgam fillings in our mouths?

Notice this study was published by the NIDCR that is staffed by
Dentists, who are members of the ADA.
These military studies have been discussed on this group before. This
particular
study does not actually measure the release of Hg from a filling as a
function
of coffe, nor does it have the statistical power , or attempt to draw
epidemologicl
conclusions. What it does do is look, far from the source of the Hg
release, in
the blood stream, to "see" what the Hg levels are. As has been
discussed before  in this group, apparently with no comprehension by
the dentists. you
CANNOT determine Hg exposure by measuring the level in the blood. The
measurement is useless. Lead yes, Hg no. Since this study did not,
actually
a) determine how much Hg was absorbed in the nervous system, through
autopsy or challenge test, b) measure the hg directly as it came of
the filling,but used methods shown by newer studies to be inaccurate
its simply garbage.

For instance, those with the most Hg exposure actually have
decreased ability to excrete it, so their blood level and urine levels
are less.
Hg is absorbed directly into the organs and nervous systems, and does
not
stay long in the blood.

There are many other problems with these types of garbage studies used
by
the FDA and NIDCR. A really leaky filling will probably release it's
Hg in a pulse, then the level will decrease, and if a military veteran
was poisoned,
he would probably be have been kicked out of the military. Measuring
exposure
in veterans after years and years, using a test which at best can't
even gauge
recent exposure reliably, cannot tell you the chronic long term
exposure.
(Not to mention, suppose those most affected had their amalgams
removed , root canals, etc, or they are missing teeth.)

The most accurate studies, many used to be on Boyd Haley's site are
fecal
tests. Most of the Hg from the filling actually passes through the
gastrointestinal tract, not the kidneys or even the bloodstream.

Now, another problem with your analysis is that you are confusing a
whole
lot of issues. you are saying this study "raises questions about
amalgams",
but the topic of discussion is increase in Hg release rate due to
oils.
amalgams , vary wildly in composition, age, galvanic activity and
as yes, has been documented in some studies, some amalgams
give off hundreds of times more Hg that others. You can't just say,
here is
a study of 1000 people and THIS is the release rate of Hg from a
filling, (even
if they didn't use useless blood/urine tests), because that assumes
that all
fillings give off the same amount of Hg.
It is just like me saying, I did a study of airplane safety last year.
I studied 300 passengers. The average fatality is .01 people, which is
not much, therefore there is no danger of airplanes crashing. You got
to look at the
exposure in the top 1% using a saliva test , a challenge test, the
top .1% with a lot of statistical power (that means 10,000+ people).
> Ditto.
>
> > In fact their are tons of studies.
>
> Please site one.
The tubigen study, I think the U is with an umlaut.
Robert - 04 Jun 2008 22:58 GMT
On Jun 3, 11:20 pm, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> "Simplicio" <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > It comes off the filling all by itself, as a vapor! (and then will
> > dissolve in any liquid you swoosh around).

Another interesting paper out of Europe:
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scenihr/docs/scenihr_o_011.pdf

Basically stating that while all chemicals introduced into the body have
risks (including composites) they can see no special risk to amalgam
fillings.

Look at it this way: it is not as if dentists *have* to use amalgams. There
are cost effective alternatives. If amalgams were known or suspected to be
unsafe, why would they continue to use them? Makes no sense. Who is making
money by continuing to use them? The mercury lobby?
Simplicio - 05 Jun 2008 01:54 GMT
> On Jun 3, 11:20 pm, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Another interesting paper out of Europe:http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scenihr/docs/scenihr...

The world health organization did a study on amalgam led by expert
mats berlin,
they concluded the safety margin had been erased, I don't know who
this "comission" is couldn't open the document, but certainly "Europe"
has not
concluded amalgam safe, in fact the opposite.

> Basically stating that while all chemicals introduced into the body have
> risks (including composites) they can see no special risk to amalgam
> fillings.

Risk is a relative term. In this thread you are concerned with whether
in oil
will increase the risk of amalgam, by Hg. Probably not. But my concern
is
those with the leakiest amalgam. Assigning a risk to the average
person with
the average filling is like trying to determine whether cigratte or
second hand smoke is  dangerous. It's a complex problem

> Look at it this way: it is not as if dentists *have* to use amalgams. There
> are cost effective alternatives. If amalgams were known or suspected to be
> unsafe, why would they continue to use them?

That is a good question, which I wondered myself. It has to do with
the fact that
the majority set's the rules, not the smartest or the wisest people.
Most people
don't understand the science behind amalgam, so there is no political
pressure.

you could ask that question of numerous things including, why say
cigarettes
are safe?, why invade iraq? Why didn't anyone take global warming
seriously.
What i see in your statements is not a scientific anaylsis or question
although
you have "cited" references, your argument in the absence of that
falls into
the bandwagon syndrome, if everyone does that then in must be right.
This is precisely WHY most people accept amalgam in the first place,
which you have concluded makes the safety "self-evident". Heck, you
should be glad that *Most* people by the wrong stocks!

Makes no sense. Who is making
> money by continuing to use them? The mercury lobby?

I think you know who, the dental industry, who had no other material
for years, and
if they admitted the mistake now, would be sued into the next
universe. Suppose
the ADA declared tommorrow, that billions of mercury implants their
dentists had
installed, which will be in billions of people for decades are unsafe?
Are you that
niave?
Robert - 05 Jun 2008 14:32 GMT
No point in continuing this discussion since you obviously believe that your
feelings about things are more valid than any scientific studies.

Once someone starts bringing up Iraq and global warming in the same
discussion as amalgam fillings :)
Simplicio - 05 Jun 2008 16:30 GMT
> No point in continuing this discussion since you obviously believe that your
> feelings about things are more valid than any scientific studies.
>
> Once someone starts bringing up Iraq and global warming in the same
> discussion as amalgam fillings :)

thank simplicio for taking the time to write a detailed scientific
critique of
the study I lazily pasted, and never bothered to make any scientific
points myself

thank you simplicio for answering my question about oils
thank you for going into detail about the physics of amalgams

Nope...F you, eewww, you don't agree with the ADA (smirky smirky)
Buzz off simplton...
Robert - 05 Jun 2008 19:14 GMT
On Jun 5, 9:32 am, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> "Simplicio" <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the study I lazily pasted, and never bothered to make any scientific
> points myself

Umm... thank you for giving me your unfounded opinions without citing any
research in response to my actual references showing scientific research
refuting your claims.
Simplicio - 14 Jun 2008 23:27 GMT
> On Jun 5, 9:32 am, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> research in response to my actual references showing scientific research
> refuting your claims.

As you can see even the FDA has conceded that amalgams may be harmful.
Archived in the group is a tremendous amount of discussion about
studies, both
pro and anti-amalgam. I simply don't have time to search the web for
studies and
unlike many people I do not catalogue them. However I will look for
some if
I have time. One study, which is relevant to your study, is on the
validity
of hg blood testing, it is called bimodal distribution of Hg
measurements another
is the Tubigen study, for it's methodical collection of data. When I
have time
I will see if I can find the URL. I actually thought the bimodal
distribution study
was very informative.

You may also be aware that many people, such as Jan frequently post
pages of
studies on this site, to which dentists reply, they only want to
discuss fact's not
studies.

Since you seem to have a geniune curiosity about the issue you should
also be
aware that a filling is a variable reaction product, just like some
mixtures of concrete are crap, even if most hold together. What I am
talking about in particular, which may only happen to 1 in 1000  is
catastrophic corrosion or breakdown of the filling, poorly mixed
filling, or extreme immune system breakdown of a filling. That
probably isn't relevant to you, your more interested
in the statistical average of Hg given off by ALL the fillings ever
made, and that
is on the order of environmental exposure from other sources, which is
significant.
Simplicio - 14 Jun 2008 23:52 GMT
> On Jun 5, 9:32 am, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> research in response to my actual references showing scientific research
> refuting your claims.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10541672

This web page gives the name of the study "urinary hg distribution in
micromercurialism". It does an excellent job of describing why blood
testing
for amalgam Hg is worthless, and presents evidence of measurable
micromercurialism from amalgam. It used to be availabe on the web and
probably
is somewhere, but now they are making you get a subscription.
Simplicio - 14 Jun 2008 23:58 GMT
> On Jun 5, 9:32 am, "Robert" <guyinc...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> research in response to my actual references showing scientific research
> refuting your claims.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/AMALGAM/EN/SCIENCE/tubingen.html

Here is a link to the tubingen study, the largest trial ever attempted
on
amalgam exposure
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 01:26 GMT
>Well, let me ask you this. The Sun is basically a nuclear reactor.
>hydrogen is
>constantly converted to sunlight. Does that mean that if the Sun does
>lose hydrogen, in a few years
>it's lights out?

Simpleton, I have always considered you a fool.

So tell us, what kind of nuclear reactor is our star ?

How exactly is 'hydrogen' converted to photons ?

What is the best *guesstimate* date of fuel exhaustion for our star ?

Calculate the mass of the sun, show your work.
John & Ninetta - 03 Jun 2008 02:08 GMT
>> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
>> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> suspected to loosen amalgam fillings? Resin fillings? (Not including
> chewing on hard candy or ice cubes :)

Coca-Cola.

John
Robert - 03 Jun 2008 03:21 GMT
> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
> oil for 15-20?

Ok, well I tried it. I swished my teeth with olive oil (for about three
minutes, not fifteen minutes). I gotta say, made my teeth and gums feel
pretty darned good.  But I am sure that is simply due to the coating effect,
not any "removal of toxins".
Steven Bornfeld - 03 Jun 2008 03:58 GMT
>> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
>> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> pretty darned good.  But I am sure that is simply due to the coating effect,
> not any "removal of toxins".

    I'd rather soak a nice piece of bread in seasoned olive oil and eat it.

Steve
news.chi.sbcglobal.net - 04 Jun 2008 00:45 GMT
I think I would ditch  the swish, and switch to Vinegar and Oil  (olive)
salad dressing.   Sounds mediterranean.
Gail

>>> No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  I can't get my patients to
>>> brush and floss for 3 minutes, but these folks will rinse with vegetable
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Steve
Newbie@bix.nex - 06 Jun 2008 22:51 GMT
>But I am sure that is simply due to the coating effect,
>> not any "removal of toxins".
>
>    I'd rather soak a nice piece of bread in seasoned olive oil and eat it.
>
>Steve

Add a few Italian seasoning to that Extra Virgin and you can
count me in !
Newbie@bix.nex - 03 Jun 2008 03:28 GMT
>    No.  But this oil stuff sounds nutty to me.  
>Steve

Must be peanut oil...
 
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