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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2008NTI failure continued
I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? Nobody said getting control of extreme clenching was a piece of cake. Plus, just because a neurologist prescribed an NTI, all NTI's are not alike and you may need to experiment a little on vertical opening, slide bars, etc. The fact that the NTI changed your symptoms is actually a good indication that you are on the right track with the clenching being a large part of your problem. I don't think I've ever seen a clencher that could not be helped with an NTI. I have seen a few patients who wouldn't let it happen. If you are serious about dealing with your problem, give us a basic geographical location and we might have a name in mind for a referral. ok look, i was a clencher in the first place then dislocated,tore, injured, whatever my tmj. JIM BOYD made me two devices not soon after. i wore it for almost three weeks, even though i would wake up violently clenched down much harder than i could imagine, and then deal with piercing pain in my jaw joints as they would relax, and then the pain in both sides of my face was unbelievable. i dont know if i was injured too soon to have the thing or what, but it caused me incredible pain. after i stopped wearing the thing, the nightmare earface pain headache that leveled me stayed for a couple weeks. now almost a year later, im still dealing with popping,grating, clenching and neck headaches and eyepain,face tightness and spasms. nothing else is working, and im tempted to pop it in again, but i am scared of that pain coming back. The professors at UCLA also have nothing but bad things to say about the NTI, like it can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my pain, neurologists,dentist whatever. > I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI > in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my > pain, neurologists,dentist whatever. ive also been told that because i have a joint that is popping and grating every few days, that i have some joint damage that could be made worse by using an NTI. Also, ive been informed that the NTI will help quickly, but after three weeks the pain will return. It just seems like all the muscles in the back of my head and neck, as well as my jaw have been in spasm for months, but nobody has given me any solution for this, except for buckets of pills that just make me tired. almost a year of this nightmare has been going on, and im afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do? > > I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI > > in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by > wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do? btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice. But somehow you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked out. Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble. Steve > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > > That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice. But somehow > you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked > out. > whoa man, easy on the bs im just stating my experience and what ive been told, which is probably bs. i think personallly my jaw had been injured too soon to wear the thing. question is what the heck do i do now?..........when i wasnt responding positively Dr. boyd decided not to return my emails anymore, so i dont know what im supposed to do. > Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI > theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble. > > Steve > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. > > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even > got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my neck,head pain, but the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the "experts" did way more harm than good! Like I said earlier, NTI dentists get so used to listening for a few minutes, making an NTI, and a week later things are much better, that a lot of diagnostic testing is usually not worth the effort or expense. Get control of the clenching monster and patients get better. Pretty plain and simple. Once in a while, things do not respond positively for the first NTI design. If the patient disappears, does not report the problems, and help work towards a solution, there is nothing that can be done. Especially if they don't trust the possibility that a simple piece of plastic can help them more than serveral 'experts' with white coats. I've had patients with a class II (overbite) who needed a maxillary NTI with a shelf cut into it to reduce the total opening with the NTI in place. I've had patients with very worn dentition that needed maxillary and mandibular NTIs that opened the bite 4-6 mm. I've had a few patients return and say, "I can't wear that thing" (which is total BS). I've had a few with such a messed up arrangement of teeth that I really couldn't figure out how to construct a decent NTI. I can't really tell you much more from here. A good NTI dentist is where I would go and work with them to find the best design for you. Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are more effective, safer treatments available. JMO, Steve >>do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even >>got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. > > well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my > neck,head pain, but > the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. > Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the > "experts" did way more harm than good! [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are > more effective, safer treatments available. thanks for the reply steve, i might have to give it another go, especially since the white coats dont seem to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing for the spasms. > JMO, > Steve > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > neck,head pain, but > > the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. >> Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not >> feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> Steve If you are within reasonable driving distance from Jim Boyd, DDS (may have missed the part where you were being treated by him) If so, Jim is the inventor of the NTI and he is your best bet for treatment of your symptoms. Amatus told me when he made an NTI for me that I wouldn't make another of the "old school" devices. <BTW none of which work, and aren't worth a tinkers' damn> Didn't believe him, but he spoke the truth. Switched all of my patients to the NTI that were wearing appliances at "no cost", and never looked back. With the correct construction(s) and sometimes different combinations of NTI devices the solution will be found. A custom device may even be indicated. As Fawks states, it's usually shooting fish in a barrel, the rare/difficult case may require a little more time and trials for a sucessful result. BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not the bullet that gets them. > BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not > the bullet that gets them. If we ever get a chance to share some brew, be sure to ask me about the "rifle shot down the well" story. Vaughn >> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not >> the bullet that gets them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Vaughn Looking forward to it ! > BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not > the bullet that gets them. Nothing like beer and explosives on the river. <VBG> Steve >> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not >> the bullet that gets them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] ><VBG> >Steve And... Firearms ! I thought this was worth re-posting > especially since the white coats dont seem > to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing > for the spasms. > I thought this was worth re-posting > >>especially since the white coats dont seem >>to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing >>for the spasms. Very true. Probably whipping out the muscle relaxants and antidepressants, labeling the guy as a drug seeker, and wondering where he can be referred to get him out of their hair. D > > I thought this was worth re-posting > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > D oh yeah, ive beeen diagnosed with everything from transformed migraine to major depression, and prescribed a suitcase full of different drugs(none of which do anything other than put me to sleep at night)such as elavil,pamelor,neurontin,baclofen, and the list goes on and on. all the while my jaw is cracking and all the muscles in my head and neck are contracting. i dont want to get to excited, but ive worn the nti for the last few nights and my neck stiffness has gotten alot better. my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to be getting better too. Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see what happens over the next few weeks... :-) D >>>I thought this was worth re-posting >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to > be getting better too. > Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see > what happens over the next few weeks... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to > > be getting better too. My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point. > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the > open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make > that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point. Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues. Usually, a little juditious adjustment at the dental office gets things evened out. It also is not uncommon to awake and notice your teeth don't feel like they are biting normally, but have things straighten out after breakfast. What kind of injury did you have? Was your jaw broken? I forgot. D > > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > D hard to say, i opened opened my mouth wide with my mandible to the side and something popped, after that i started clenching like crazy. > > > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > > > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > clenching like crazy. also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated? >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing >>>the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues. > also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated? Yes. You want the stress off of the joint, muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This lets the TMJ settle where it 'feels good', not where the teeth and occlusion are telling it where it 'has to go'. Steve > >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the > >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the total accuracy of your statements or condition. Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable for your needs. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some complication that would need to be addressed. I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will improve and no major complications will arise. This would probably have been addressed in a more appropriate manner had you just put your trust in Dr. Boyd and stayed with him until you were better, but I understand that takes quite a leap of faith when you have these other 'experts' telling you a totally different story. Best wishes, Steve >>>>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the >>>>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. > I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the > total accuracy of your statements or condition. > > Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable > for your needs. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some > complication that would need to be addressed. What sort of complication could arise? i know that this particular NTI as well as another was made, and at the time they both caused me pain and i wasnt able to keep them in all night. but now, the same device is comfortable and is definetely helping things. > I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will > improve and no major complications will arise. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. > > >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the > > >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? Like I have said, it isn't possible to make absolute statements about any individual condition over the internet. That said, wearing an NTI takes the occlusion out of the game and lets the condyles seat in a natural position independent of the dentition. This can lead to an apparent change in the 'bite', when all it really does is allow the TMJ to settle into a normal position for itself. Harmony between the occlusion and the TMJ is a nice thing to have, but it isn't the be-all, end-all. Hardly anyone has their teeth in perfect alignment while the TMJ's are also in a perfect location. The intensity, duration, and frequency of clenching exacerbates any misalignments by placing additional stresses on the teeth and other structures. You are *likely* to just now be finding out how far off your occlusion is relating to your TMJ's. If things start to feel better and you can live with the descrepency, fine. Otherwise, you may need ortho or some other type of occlusal reconstruction to finish the deal. JME, Steve > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve So the fact that things are moving ,is that a good indicator that im headed for pain control? > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime. IMO, yes. That way he won't be starting from scratch again. He will instead be able to see what condition you are in after his first NTI attempt and can make changes if they are indicated. JMO, Steve > i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering > if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime. > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can cause more damage or worsen the condition, and they are against treatment that causes changes to the bite( which is what im going through) are these guys incorrect? It just seems like im diving into this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my pain. I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems". The NTI is not a repositioning splint in the traditional sense. THe NTI will *allow* the joints to relax and move slightly, but it is not designed to create repositioning like the devices that they are describing. The NTI is one very safe treatment method. It reduces stress on all of the structures and provides a decrease in inflamation and pain. Make a list of questions to ask Dr. Boyd when you visit him and relax in the meantime. Steve > ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that > states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my > pain. > I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except > to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems". [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my > > pain. thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and misunderstood, that its hard to relax. thanks for the replies. And the NTI is not a "cure". It is a means of controlling the crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up. It won't 'fix' you, but it will keep you from hurting yourself. But don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Many of the 'experts' have learned things that are not really true. Many have found there is money to be made by treating patients like you, and they are happy to take as much of it as you (and your insurance) will give them. Most of my patients who need an NTI are 'wound a little tight'. Understanding that and dealing with it helps as well. Be cool. Dr. Boyd knows what he is doing and is not out to screw you over (though I'm sure he charges 5X what I do...you do live in CA, right? Hmmm...maybe that's the ticket...forget the million dollar home, come to the midwest, plant a few tomato plants, eat some sweet corn, live a whole lot cheaper, and just chill <g>). If this all works out and Jim gets you feeling good, then you owe me a 30 pack. <VBG> Steve > thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and > misunderstood, that its hard to relax. > > thanks for the replies. > And the NTI is not a "cure". It is a means of controlling the > crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up. It [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > <VBG> > Steve not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we speak. > > thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and > > misunderstood, that its hard to relax. > > > thanks for the replies. > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > speak. As long as your aren't planning to make a living off of it, you'll be fine. You still may need to trade that lexus or bmw for a tractor. <VBG> D > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > <VBG> > D Hate to do this,but it seems like the improvement i thought i was having ,may have been either short lived or i dunno what....but 2 weeks into wearing this thing, im pretty much back at square one. i wasnt popping lately it seemed like, but yesterday just by rotating my head a little pop came out of my jaw, and now the ears are once again ringing and the unbelievably depressing headache in the back of my head/neck is back. this disease seems hopeless. either treatments that dont work, or doctors that dont believe or understand the nature of the pain, or doctors that will say or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this dilemma once again. > > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this > dilemma once again. actually i was wondering if you knew of this Dr. Schames, that i believe Dr.Boyd quotes as source on his website. This guy was another dentist who took 400 bucks from me to listen to my jaws with a stethoscope, only to to try to convince me that "i do not have a problem with my tmj", and that i either had a sleep disorder, or i did too many drugs as a youth. nevermind the visible muscle contractions in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured. > > > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > too many drugs as a youth. nevermind the visible muscle contractions > in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured. i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac. > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty > sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that > pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading > about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac. First, popping in a TMJ is not a big deal by itself. When you see Dr. Boyd he can demonstrate a popping joint louder than you can generate on your own! Not all treatment for any condition goes perfectly smooth eliminating all symptoms without a set back or two. It is also possible that any given condition cannot ever be made to completely disappear and that the patient is the same as they were 10 years ago. A reduction in the severity and frequency of symptoms may be the best you can achieve. Magic wands are hard to come by. I have only worked with one case of obvious joint changes. It took over a year of NTI use to have things return to a fairly normal condition. For the patient and myself this was a better solution than trying to have a surgeon operate on the joint. However, surgery *might* work for you. Of course, it might not, and the trauma from the treatment could leave you in worse shape than you are now. My recommendation would be to give Dr. Boyd 3-6 months where you are both dedicated to reaching a solution. Listen and follow directions. See what happens over time. D > > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > D yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on his team. > > > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > > > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > D the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change? > yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on > his team. > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple > hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at > spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change? Probably depends upon who you ask. (and if you're really asking me, I don't have a definite answer) Do you have a small lower NTI that you could wear during the day? Steve > > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve im guessing although not definite, more like probably huh. I have a lower one for the night only, and its pretty big, or maybe just normal. > > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem? > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem > when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the > symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams > even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem? To me, it says the structures are within normal limits. That's good. However, it doesn't address the nerve and muscle *activity* or the severity there-of. That is where the NTI comes in. A 'tall' NTI may need to be lowered so it doesn't prop your mouth open as wide. If your teeth are badly worn, the opposite could be true. You may benefit from a small lower NTI that you can wear during the day for a few weeks to really break the clenching cycles. Other admonitions that are probably repetitive are: Don't chew gum. Don't keep moving your jaw around to see if it still pops/grates. If you find yourself clenching in the day time, relax those muscles and separate the teeth. Avoid tough, chewy foods for a while. If you sprain an ankle, you don't keep jogging every morning. You ice it down, wrap it, and take it easy. Your TMJ is a traumatized anatomic structure that needs some R&R to get better. JMO, D > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > D Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI is definetely helping > > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > is definetely helping thanks to you to mr. fawks Hello jerm, I was away from my desk while your discussion developed. If I have missed this information, I apologize. You wrote,"...other than my opening being so tight..." Can you be more specific about that? And, how long has all of this been going on? Webby In article <10e554c0-57d6-4b9f-9929-755b1cf6a3b6@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > is definetely helping > Hello jerm, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And, how long has all of this been going on? well it started back in november, i had already been having what is probably transformed migraine, when for whatever reason, i had opened my mouth while my mandible was jutted to the side and heard a pop, like my jaw breaking loose. after that my jaw got sore and tigtht over the next few days. i then started gettting all the clenching and spasms in the next couple weeks. i then saw Dr. Boyd who made me an appliance, but it caused me too much pain in my joints overnight, and seemed to cause a stabbing headache in my jaw. so i stopped wearing the NTI, and from that point on, saw the socalled tmj experts at UCLa, who examined me and couldnt reproduce any local pain, only a very tight opening that they were able to stretch open enough that they only recommended pt and pretty much funneled me to their psyche department. i then saw a couple more dentists including a Dr. Schames who is also from the white memoral tmj clinic i believe, anyways he couldnt see any real problem or tenderness, so he tried to convince me i had apnea that was causing my clenching, even though my joint was starting to pop and make crackling and grating afterwards. so after the last few months of trying to figure out who to believe, meanwhile my jaw is still cracking and everything was in spasm, i decide to give the NTI another go, since none of the bottles of pills neurolgists have giving have accomplished anything, ive been wearing it for 2 weeks now, and it seems to be helping, although my jaw is still feeling very uncomfortable on the side that i know ive injured, and it is making less noise as well. I made another appointment with DrBoydn next week to hopefully continue with this NTI, seeing as how nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for a flat fee of $5000.00 > Webby > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > > is definetely helping > seeing as how > nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has > anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ > Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for > a flat fee of $5000.00 Just highlighting that comment > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > D Interesting discussion/s. Webby And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" ;-) Steve > Interesting discussion/s. > > Webby > And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Webby the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, there seems to be this pain that radiates from just above the tmj that pops into the back of my head near the nape of my neck. it seems to start out small early in the day, and just progresses until ive got a full blown headache. although always coming from that side that pops. like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really worried about that. In article <0d892b8a-efbe-4c76-9f21-e322dea05cae@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really > worried about that. I have known Dr. Boyd since 1996 ... and whether or not his plan works for you, I have every reason to believe in his honor... and furthermore, there isn't anyone in this newsgroup who has been posting here since the early to mid to late 1990's who might comment upon "TMJ and NTI or AGELK" who I would not have reason to respect. Best wishes, (The) Webby > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really > worried about that. I understand that living with pain is upsetting and depressing. I think with the right NTI design or combination, you will get a lot of relief. Doesn't mean you'll never need some ibuprofen, but you shouldn't be suffering every day. Your description makes me think the daytime appliance is what you're missing. If you're waking up feeling decent, the NTI has done it's job. If you pain grows during the day, you need help when the regular NTI is at home on the night stand. Just relay what's you were feeling a few weeks ago, what has improved since you have been wearing the NTI, what symptoms you are left with, and when/how they develop. Steve > > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve well, couple weeks ago my face and neck muscles were alot tighter and in spasm.althought, still pretty tight,alot of my face musculature is relaxing some for sure. it seems like im sleeping alot better with the NTI for sure as well. im dreaming alot more undisturbed, as before my sleep was completely fragmented and my head and neck was completely painful to lay on. the pain im feeling now,seem to be more localized around my tmj and ear. like now, its easy to say that its one sided. i can tell that the headache starts with a twinge around my ear thats referred to my neck movement, like if i shake my head i can feel pain inside, and that pain seems to progress during the day. my jaw was making a pop every few days when opening to eat something, and that hasnt happened since wearing the NTI. However, ive had a couple really mini pops when looking up or rotating my head. im gonna be seeing DrBoyd this week, and i just hope im able to articulate what really needs to be said. > > > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > > > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > seeing DrBoyd this week, and i just hope im able to articulate what > really needs to be said. also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that ive been consistently wearing the device. >also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that >ive been consistently wearing the device. Not long enough. Am checking my patients every ~2 wks up to 6 or 8. By then most routine cases have responded favorably. Some take longer. On May 31, 11:24 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > >ive been consistently wearing the device. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Some take longer. thats great to hear! Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. :-) Steve > also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > ive been consistently wearing the device. > Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > > ive been consistently wearing the device. cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. LOL If you drive off a cliff, see if you can borrow someones car that you really don't like or owes you money. ;-) Steve >>Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a > few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. In article <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe253@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, > > Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a > few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. Is there some other treatment plan you think is the one you need but you're not getting? Webby > In article > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Webby no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings gonna work. > > In article > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings > gonna work. btw, what is thits AGELK thing? > > > In article > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > my bite is moving around quite a bit. > > > > In article > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > my bite is moving around quite a bit. but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the afternoon my masseters start contracting. should i just pop it back in during the day for a while? In article <f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7eeb0@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > In article > > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? When is your appointment? Webby > In article > <f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7e...@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Webby this week. [clip] > > When is your appointment? > > > > Webby > > this week. Great then! I hope you'll tell him that you've been sharing your questions/concerns with smd. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > [clip] > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Webby Also, I was thinking that the "Subject: NTI failure continued" may need to be reworded soon! Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Webby i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? Webby In article <f1ddac7d-d45f-4ac2-b034-4d7c0c2a4884@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru > life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. > > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru > > life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here >> > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here Of course you can say whatever you want in newsgroups. It's the last great bastion of free speech in the world. And in some parts of the world is punished by death. May freedom and liberty never die ! God bless the men and women who protect our freedom. Never forget, freedom isn't free. All it takes for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing. yes  Signature/ Amatus / >> >> > > > In article [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? > > > > > In article > > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? Wouldn't hurt until you see Jim and he might make a daytime appliance. D > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > D its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl ever be out of spasm. > > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl > ever be out of spasm. btw, im seeing Dr.Boyd this week and was wondering if there was anything specific i may want to be sure to ask him. Thanks In article <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12f31@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > anything specific i may want > to be sure to ask him. Thanks What's on your list at this point? Advice: make a list of your concerns and take it with you to the appointment. Webby > In article > <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Webby Thanks Webby, and thanks to everybody else on this board for being so helpful. I saw Dr. Boyd today and I and basically im going to use the lower NTI ive got already during the day and as much as possible for the next month and then go back for a recheck. Thank God for that guy, such a cool doctor. In article <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03ad9b@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > recheck. Thank God for > that guy, such a cool doctor. You're very welcome! I put up one more post in response to an older post of yours. Hopefully, you'll see it and give us your thoughts. It sounds as though you and Dr. Boyd have a good plan! Best of luck to you and hopefully you'll keep us posted as to your progress. Webby > In article > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Webby Hey, sorry im back with another question that i didnt get to ask Dr.Boyd. before i had injured my jaw joint with an unnatural sideways opening, i was already dealing with headaches, that i thought were sinus related for a number of years ,that had become just about daily and constant-i was told i had transfomed migraine. After i had the trauma to my jaw, everything went into complete overdrive with spasms and headache and neck pain off the chart,and unable to wear the NTI at first with so much jaw pain.Now, since ive got these two overlapping conditions(or so i think) how would my treatment with the NTI splint be different from somebody with just routine jaw pain? Maybe this is a neurologist type question, i dont know. I guess ive just had so many different opinions from neurologists, in fact i had one tell me that people claiming to have tmj pain were a pitfall for migraine diagnosis. But, i know for a fact that i have real jaw pain popping, spasms, headaches,neck pain,etc., as well as a prior history of headaches before the jaw pain. OK, the questions is more simply, how would the diagnostic function of the NTI be applied to my case?.........sorry i know its a bunch of rambling. these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) > > In article > > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > rambling. > these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) sorry Webby, I looked for the old post, but i didnt have anyluck finding it. > > In article > > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > rambling. > these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does he do that without problems? > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > he do that without problems? By wearing an NTI every night <G>. You see, Dr. Boyd was a young dentist (recently graduated from USC) who was suffering with migraines and lots of jaw pain. Noone had been able to give him much relief, so he imersed himself in every bit of information available to try and help himself. (Sound familiar?<G>) He experimented with all kinds of bite guards/splints (mainly trying to address the TMJ issues since he didn't know the headaches were in fact related at the beginning). He eventually placed a type of discluding element on the anterior portion of a traditional TMJ splint. Things got better with his TMJ, and after some time, and he realized he wasn't grabbing a handful of ibuprofen for his headaches each morning either. This wasn't just 'neat', it was a huge discovery. He did not regress, and he wondered if it would work on others. The connection of this multi- tude of symptoms and a solution had been unearthed. After having success with himself, he honed the design of his appliance and began treating other patients for the same problems. Most of them got better. He studied more, talked to neurologists himself (evidently some with more open minds than you have found). He was able to offer the world a simple device with a fairly simple protocol that could offer many suffering patients relief that had previously been a huge, terribly expensive crap shoot. This all led to the connection between clenching/jaw pain/migraine. I believe it to be one of the major medical/dental break-throughs of my lifetime. So to go back to your story, you never had two separate problems that got worse from an injured jaw. You had this clenching issue for years, and it just so happened that it got worse, the structures were further stressed, and that one opening was the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. I'm sure that your neurologist 'friends' are intelligent, well-educated folk. They have (IMO) simply learned too much of the wrong thing. Since they haven't been able to conquer this TMJ/migraine syndrome, there is either a psychological component or some mysterious pathway of pathology that is beyond known treatment. Millions of dollars are being thrown down a rat hole, people are suffering, people are getting worthless/sometimes dangerous treatment, people are taking way too many drugs, all for the want of an NTI. Best wishes, Steve > > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Best wishes, > Steve thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the line if not, surgery? Does that ever even help?, for a clencher even. My jaw popped super loud for the first time since wearing the NTI again, pretty disheartening, as im sure ill be in pain soon. In article <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d3934ac@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [clip] > thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the > line if not, surgery? > Does that ever even help? What surgery do you have in mind? Webby > In article > <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Webby i dont have any planned, im still hoping the NTI is gonna help me out. but i guess im just thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved. > > In article > > <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > but i guess im just > thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved. I wonder why, for the last three weeks with the NTI, although i have had headaches and some face pain, the side that pops was silent, and now opening my mouth to eat some eggs i get a loud crack and subsequent grating for a while. a few hours later now, my jaw is starting to get sore, and im sure later the whole spasms and migraine will be in full effect. I also still cannot understand how these three "craniofacial pain experts" could do theyre 400 dollar exams and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all these symptoms. Ignore the sounds. Signature/ Amatus / >> >> > In article [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all > these symptoms. > > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Best wishes, > Steve Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that the injury was the result of structures already injured. I actually did something incredibly stupid. I had noticed that as I stretched my mouth open, the "sinus" headache that id been plagued with forever seemed to change. I had been surfing the web and came across some jaw stretching exercises, and i followed the instructions to jut my jaw sideways and open, and when i did came the crack that changed everything. i remember clamping my jaw shut in horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was so fragile. I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just not listening. Guess what the muscles that try and open your mouth are hooked to on the other end. The back of you sinus. They are struggling for hours each day to get your teeth apart and are causing inflamation in that area. Clenching is your problem (at least it is the trigger that is leading to the cascade of other symptoms). I've tried to baby sit you through this affair, but even I have a limited amount of patience. Every comment breeds 2-5 more questions, when you just need to accept where you are and that Dr. Boyd is your best chance of getting better. You don't need to fully understand the whole issue. Let the NTI work, or don't. It's your choice. Steve > Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that > the injury was the result of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > so fragile. > I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just > not listening. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > > so fragile. sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you met Dr. Boyd. What you need to do now is RELAX. Quit looking for reasons for the NTI to fail. Let it do its job and don't complicate things. Steve > sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. > Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you > met Dr. Boyd. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. cool, thanks again, i wont flood the board with my nonsense for a while.......:) Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry. You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all the time. The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back" Signature/ Amatus / >> > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does >> > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > so fragile. |
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