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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2008

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NTI failure continued

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jerm - 16 May 2008 06:05 GMT
I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI
in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure?

Nobody said getting control of extreme clenching was a piece of cake.

Plus, just because a neurologist prescribed an NTI, all NTI's are
not alike and you may need to experiment a little on vertical
opening, slide bars, etc.

The fact that the NTI changed your symptoms is actually a good
indication that you are on the right track with the clenching
being a large part of your problem.

I don't think I've ever seen a clencher that could not be helped
with an NTI.  I have seen a few patients who wouldn't let it
happen.

If you are serious about dealing with your problem, give us a
basic geographical location and we might have a name in mind
for a referral.
ok look, i was a clencher in the first place then dislocated,tore,
injured, whatever my tmj. JIM BOYD made
me two devices not soon after. i wore it for almost three weeks, even
though i would wake up violently clenched down much harder than i
could imagine, and then deal with piercing pain  in my jaw joints as
they would relax, and then the pain in both sides of my face was
unbelievable. i dont know if i was injured too soon to have the thing
or what, but it caused me incredible pain. after i stopped wearing the
thing, the nightmare earface pain headache that leveled me stayed for
a couple weeks. now almost a year later, im still dealing with
popping,grating, clenching and neck headaches and eyepain,face
tightness and spasms. nothing else is working, and im tempted to pop
it in again, but i am scared of that pain coming back. The professors
at UCLA also have nothing but bad things to say about the NTI, like it
can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my
pain, neurologists,dentist whatever.
jerm - 17 May 2008 03:53 GMT
> I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI
> in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure?
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my
> pain, neurologists,dentist whatever.

ive also been told that because i have a joint that is popping and
grating every few days, that i have some joint damage
that could be made worse by using an NTI. Also, ive been informed that
the NTI will help quickly, but after three weeks the pain will
return.
It just seems like all the muscles in the back of my head and neck, as
well as my jaw have been in spasm for months, but nobody has given me
any solution for this, except for buckets of pills that just make me
tired. almost a year of this nightmare has been going on, and im
afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by
wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do?
jerm - 17 May 2008 04:10 GMT
> > I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI
> > in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure?
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by
> wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do?

btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2008 05:56 GMT
> btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county

That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice.  But somehow
you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked
out.

Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI
theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble.

Steve
jerm - 17 May 2008 06:14 GMT
> > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county
>
> That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice.  But somehow
> you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked
> out.
> whoa man, easy on the bs im just stating my experience and what ive been told, which is probably bs.

     i think personallly my jaw had been injured too soon to wear the
thing.
question is what the heck do i do now?..........when i wasnt
responding positively Dr. boyd decided not to return my emails
anymore, so i dont know
what im supposed to do.

> Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI
> theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble.
>
> Steve
jerm - 17 May 2008 06:17 GMT
> > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even
got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in.
jerm - 17 May 2008 18:04 GMT
> > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even
> got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in.

well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my
neck,head pain, but
the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse.
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2008 03:26 GMT
Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the
"experts" did way more harm than good!

Like I said earlier, NTI dentists get so used to listening for a
few minutes, making an NTI, and a week later things are much better,
that a lot of diagnostic testing is usually not worth the effort
or expense.

Get control of the clenching monster and patients get better.  Pretty
plain and simple.

Once in a while, things do not respond positively for the first
NTI design.  If the patient disappears, does not report the
problems, and help work towards a solution, there is nothing
that can be done.  Especially if they don't trust the possibility
that a simple piece of plastic can help them more than serveral
'experts' with white coats.

I've had patients with a class II (overbite) who needed a maxillary
NTI with a shelf cut into it to reduce the total opening with the
NTI in place.  I've had patients with very worn dentition that needed
maxillary and mandibular NTIs that opened the bite 4-6 mm.

I've had a few patients return and say, "I can't wear that thing"
(which is total BS).  I've had a few with such a messed up arrangement
of teeth that I really couldn't figure out how to construct a decent
NTI.

I can't really tell you much more from here.  A good NTI dentist is
where I would go and work with them to find the best design for you.

Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not
feel great in a week or two.  That doesn't mean that there are
more effective, safer treatments available.

JMO,
Steve

>>do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even
>>got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in.
>
> well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my
> neck,head pain, but
> the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse.
jerm - 18 May 2008 04:53 GMT
> Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the
> "experts" did way more harm than good!
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> feel great in a week or two.  That doesn't mean that there are
> more effective, safer treatments available.

   thanks for the reply steve, i might have to give it another go,
especially since the white coats dont seem
to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing
for the spasms.
> JMO,

> Steve
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > neck,head pain, but
> > the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse.
Newbie@bix.nex - 18 May 2008 06:37 GMT
>> Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not
>> feel great in a week or two.  That doesn't mean that there are
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>> Steve

If you are within reasonable driving distance from Jim Boyd, DDS
(may have missed the part where you were being treated by him)

If so, Jim is the inventor of the NTI and he is your best bet for
treatment of your symptoms.

Amatus told me when he made an NTI for me that I wouldn't
make another of the "old school" devices.
<BTW none of which work, and aren't worth a tinkers' damn>

Didn't believe him, but he spoke the truth.
Switched all of my patients to the NTI that were wearing appliances
at "no cost", and never looked back.

With the correct construction(s) and sometimes different combinations
of NTI devices the solution will be found. A custom device may even
be indicated.

As Fawks states, it's usually shooting fish in a barrel, the
rare/difficult case may require a little more time and trials
for a sucessful result.

BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not
the bullet that gets them.
Vaughn Simon - 18 May 2008 14:07 GMT
> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not
> the bullet that gets them.

  If we ever get a chance to share some brew, be sure to ask me about the
"rifle shot down the well" story.

Vaughn
Newbie@bix.nex - 19 May 2008 00:04 GMT
>> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not
>> the bullet that gets them.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Vaughn

Looking forward to it !
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2008 14:28 GMT
> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not
> the bullet that gets them.

Nothing like beer and explosives on the river.

<VBG>
Steve
Newbie@bix.nex - 19 May 2008 00:04 GMT
>> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not
>> the bullet that gets them.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
><VBG>
>Steve

And... Firearms !
Amatus Cremona - 18 May 2008 14:41 GMT
I thought this was worth re-posting

> especially since the white coats dont seem
> to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing
> for the spasms.
Dartos - 19 May 2008 14:30 GMT
> I thought this was worth re-posting
>
>>especially since the white coats dont seem
>>to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing
>>for the spasms.

Very true.

Probably whipping out the muscle relaxants and antidepressants,
labeling the guy as a drug seeker, and wondering where he can
be referred to get him out of their hair.

D
jerm - 19 May 2008 18:03 GMT
> > I thought this was worth re-posting
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> D

oh yeah, ive beeen diagnosed with everything from transformed migraine
to major depression, and prescribed a suitcase full of different
drugs(none of which
do anything other than put me to sleep at night)such as
elavil,pamelor,neurontin,baclofen, and the list goes on and on. all
the while my jaw is cracking and all the muscles in my head and neck
are contracting. i dont want to get to excited, but ive worn the nti
for the last few nights and  my neck stiffness has gotten alot better.
my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to
be getting better too.
Dartos - 19 May 2008 19:16 GMT
Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see
what happens over the next few weeks...

:-)
D

>>>I thought this was worth re-posting
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to
> be getting better too.
jerm - 22 May 2008 20:20 GMT
> Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see
> what happens over the next few weeks...
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to
> > be getting better too.

My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are
touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the
open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make
that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point.
Dartos - 22 May 2008 21:57 GMT
> My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are
> touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the
> open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make
> that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point.

Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the
condyles to seat into the fossa.  This is because the NTI is reducing
the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues.

Usually, a little juditious adjustment at the dental office gets things
evened out.

It also is not uncommon to awake and notice your teeth don't feel
like they are biting normally, but have things straighten out after
breakfast.

What kind of injury did you have?  Was your jaw broken?  I forgot.

D
jerm - 23 May 2008 01:00 GMT
> > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are
> > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> D hard to say, i opened opened my mouth wide with my mandible to the side and something popped, after that i started
clenching like crazy.
jerm - 23 May 2008 01:09 GMT
> > > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are
> > > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> clenching like crazy.

also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated?
Steven Fawks - 23 May 2008 01:41 GMT
>>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the
>>>condyles to seat into the fossa.  This is because the NTI is reducing
>>>the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues.

> also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated?

Yes.  You want the stress off of the joint, muscles, tendons, and
ligaments.  This lets the TMJ settle where it 'feels good', not
where the teeth and occlusion are telling it where it 'has to go'.

Steve
jerm - 23 May 2008 01:46 GMT
> >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the
> >>>condyles to seat into the fossa.  This is because the NTI is reducing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait.
Steven Fawks - 23 May 2008 04:38 GMT
I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the
total accuracy of your statements or condition.

Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable
for your needs.  That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some
complication that would need to be addressed.

I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will
improve and no major complications will arise.

This would probably have been addressed in a more appropriate manner
had you just put your trust in Dr. Boyd and stayed with him until
you were better, but I understand that takes quite a leap of faith
when you have these other 'experts' telling you a totally different
story.

Best wishes,
Steve

>>>>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the
>>>>>condyles to seat into the fossa.  This is because the NTI is reducing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait.
jerm - 23 May 2008 18:48 GMT
> I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the
> total accuracy of your statements or condition.
>
> Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable
> for your needs.  That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some
> complication that would need to be addressed.

What sort of complication could arise? i know that this particular NTI
as well as another was made, and at the time
they both caused me pain and i wasnt able to keep them in all night.
but now, the same device is comfortable and is definetely helping
things.

> I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will
> improve and no major complications will arise.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait.
jerm - 23 May 2008 04:55 GMT
> > >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the
> > >>>condyles to seat into the fossa.  This is because the NTI is reducing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait.

So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was
helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast?
Steven Fawks - 23 May 2008 05:50 GMT
> So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was
> helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast?

Like I have said, it isn't possible to make absolute statements
about any individual condition over the internet.

That said, wearing an NTI takes the occlusion out of the game
and lets the condyles seat in a natural position independent
of the dentition.

This can lead to an apparent change in the 'bite', when all it
really does is allow the TMJ to settle into a normal position
for itself.

Harmony between the occlusion and the TMJ is a nice thing to have,
but it isn't the be-all, end-all.  Hardly anyone has their teeth in
perfect alignment while the TMJ's are also in a perfect location.

The intensity, duration, and frequency of clenching exacerbates any
misalignments by placing additional stresses on the teeth and
other structures.

You are *likely* to just now be finding out how far off your
occlusion is relating to your TMJ's.  If things start to feel
better and you can live with the descrepency, fine.  Otherwise,
you may need ortho or some other type of occlusal reconstruction
to finish the deal.

JME,
Steve
jerm - 23 May 2008 06:14 GMT
> > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was
> > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> JME,
> Steve

So the fact that things are moving ,is that a good indicator that im
headed for pain control?
jerm - 23 May 2008 06:16 GMT
> > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was
> > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> JME,
> Steve

i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering
if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime.
Steven Fawks - 23 May 2008 13:39 GMT
IMO, yes.

That way he won't be starting from scratch again.  He will instead
be able to see what condition you are in after his first NTI
attempt and can make changes if they are indicated.

JMO,
Steve

> i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering
> if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime.
jerm - 24 May 2008 19:33 GMT
> > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was
> > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> JME,
> Steve

ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that
states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can
cause more damage or worsen the condition, and they are against
treatment that causes changes to the bite( which is what  im going
through) are these guys incorrect? It just seems like im diving into
this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my
pain.
Steven Fawks - 24 May 2008 20:18 GMT
I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except
to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems".

The NTI is not a repositioning splint in the traditional sense.
THe NTI will *allow* the joints to relax and move slightly, but
it is not designed to create repositioning like the devices that
they are describing.

The NTI is one very safe treatment method.  It reduces stress on
all of the structures and provides a decrease in inflamation and
pain.

Make a list of questions to ask Dr. Boyd when you visit him and
relax in the meantime.

Steve

> ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that
> states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my
> pain.
jerm - 24 May 2008 21:03 GMT
> I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except
> to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems".
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my
> > pain.

thanks.....this problem is  so aggravating and seemingly complex and
misunderstood, that its hard to relax.

thanks for the replies.
Steven Fawks - 25 May 2008 05:06 GMT
And the NTI is not a "cure".  It is a means of controlling the
crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up.  It
won't 'fix' you, but it will keep you from hurting yourself.

But don't make things more complicated than they need to be.
Many of the 'experts' have learned things that are not really
true.  Many have found there is money to be made by treating
patients like you, and they are happy to take as much of it
as you (and your insurance) will give them.

Most of my patients who need an NTI are 'wound a little tight'.
Understanding that and dealing with it helps as well.  Be cool.
Dr. Boyd knows what he is doing and is not out to screw you
over (though I'm sure he charges 5X what I do...you do live
in CA, right? Hmmm...maybe that's the ticket...forget the million
dollar home, come to the midwest, plant a few tomato plants,
eat some sweet corn, live a whole lot cheaper, and just chill <g>).

If this all works out and Jim gets you feeling good, then you
owe me a 30 pack.

<VBG>
Steve

> thanks.....this problem is  so aggravating and seemingly complex and
> misunderstood, that its hard to relax.
>
> thanks for the replies.
jerm - 26 May 2008 03:27 GMT
> And the NTI is not a "cure".  It is a means of controlling the
> crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up.  It
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> <VBG>
> Steve
               not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
speak.

> > thanks.....this problem is  so aggravating and seemingly complex and
> > misunderstood, that its hard to relax.
>
> > thanks for the replies.
Dartos - 27 May 2008 14:12 GMT
>                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
> speak.

As long as your aren't planning to make a living off of it, you'll
be fine.

You still may need to trade that lexus or bmw for a tractor.

<VBG>
D
jerm - 28 May 2008 03:38 GMT
> >                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
> > speak.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> <VBG>
> D

Hate to do this,but it seems like the improvement i thought i was
having ,may have been either short lived or i dunno what....but
2 weeks into wearing this thing, im pretty much back at square one.  i
wasnt popping lately it seemed like, but yesterday just by
rotating my head a little pop came out of my jaw, and now the ears are
once again ringing and the unbelievably depressing
headache in the back of my head/neck is back. this disease seems
hopeless. either treatments that dont work, or doctors that dont
believe or understand the nature of the pain, or doctors that will say
or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this
dilemma   once again.
jerm - 28 May 2008 07:08 GMT
> > >                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
> > > speak.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this
> dilemma   once again.

actually i was wondering if you knew of this Dr. Schames, that i
believe Dr.Boyd quotes as source on  his website. This guy was another
dentist who took 400 bucks from me to listen to my jaws with a
stethoscope, only to to try to convince me that "i do not have a
problem with my tmj", and that i either had a sleep disorder, or i did
too many drugs as a youth.  nevermind the visible muscle contractions
in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured.
jerm - 28 May 2008 08:43 GMT
> > > >                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
> > > > speak.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> too many drugs as a youth.  nevermind the visible muscle contractions
> in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured.

i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens
if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty
sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that
pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading
about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac.
Dartos - 28 May 2008 19:14 GMT
> i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens
> if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty
> sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that
> pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading
> about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac.

First, popping in a TMJ is not a big deal by itself.  When you see
Dr. Boyd he can demonstrate a popping joint louder than you can
generate on your own!

Not all treatment for any condition goes perfectly smooth eliminating
all symptoms without a set back or two.  It is also possible that
any given condition cannot ever be made to completely disappear and
that the patient is the same as they were 10 years ago.  A reduction
in the severity and frequency of symptoms may be the best you can
achieve.  Magic wands are hard to come by.

I have only worked with one case of obvious joint changes.  It took
over a year of NTI use to have things return to a fairly normal
condition.  For the patient and myself this was a better solution
than trying to have a surgeon operate on the joint.

However, surgery *might* work for you.  Of course, it might not, and the
trauma from the treatment could leave you in worse shape than you are
now.

My recommendation would be to give Dr. Boyd 3-6 months where you are
both dedicated to reaching a solution.  Listen and follow directions.
See what happens over time.

D
jerm - 28 May 2008 20:08 GMT
> > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens
> > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> D

yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on
his team.
jerm - 28 May 2008 21:52 GMT
> > > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens
> > > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> > D

      the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky
sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser  for a couple
hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at
spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change?

> yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on
> his team.
Steven Fawks - 28 May 2008 23:47 GMT
>        the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky
> sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser  for a couple
> hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at
> spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change?

Probably depends upon who you ask.  (and if you're really asking me,
I don't have a definite answer)

Do you have a small lower NTI that you could wear during the day?

Steve
jerm - 29 May 2008 00:35 GMT
> >        the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky
> > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser  for a couple
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Steve

 im guessing although not definite, more like probably huh. I have a
lower one for the night only, and its pretty big, or maybe just
normal.
jerm - 29 May 2008 00:42 GMT
> >        the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky
> > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser  for a couple
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Steve

whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the
symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams
even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem?
Dartos - 29 May 2008 17:52 GMT
> whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
> that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
> when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the
> symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams
> even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem?

To me, it says the structures are within normal limits.  That's good.

However, it doesn't address the nerve and muscle *activity* or the
severity there-of.  That is where the NTI comes in.  A 'tall' NTI
may need to be lowered so it doesn't prop your mouth open as wide.
If your teeth are badly worn, the opposite could be true.
You may benefit from a small lower NTI that you can wear during the
day for a few weeks to really break the clenching cycles.

Other admonitions that are probably repetitive are:

Don't chew gum.
Don't keep moving your jaw around to see if it still pops/grates.
If you find yourself clenching in the day time, relax those muscles
and separate the teeth.
Avoid tough, chewy foods for a while.

If you sprain an ankle, you don't keep jogging every morning.  You
ice it down, wrap it, and take it easy.

Your TMJ is a traumatized anatomic structure that needs some R&R
to get better.

JMO,
D
jerm - 29 May 2008 17:58 GMT
> > whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
> > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> JMO,
> D

Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI
is definetely helping
jerm - 29 May 2008 22:07 GMT
> > > whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
> > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI
> is definetely helping

thanks to you to mr. fawks
The Webby - 30 May 2008 22:38 GMT
Hello jerm,

I was away from my desk while your discussion developed. If I have
missed this information, I apologize.  

You wrote,"...other than my opening being so tight..."  Can you be more
specific about that?

And, how long has all of this been going on?

Webby

 

In article
<10e554c0-57d6-4b9f-9929-755b1cf6a3b6@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > > whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
> > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI
> is definetely helping
jerm - 30 May 2008 23:03 GMT
> Hello jerm,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> And, how long has all of this been going on?

well it started back in november, i had already been having what is
probably transformed migraine, when for whatever reason,
i had opened my mouth   while my mandible was jutted to the side and
heard a pop, like my jaw breaking loose.
after that my jaw got sore and tigtht over the next few days. i then
started gettting all the clenching and spasms in the next couple
weeks. i then saw Dr. Boyd who made me an appliance, but it caused me
too much pain in my joints overnight, and seemed to cause a stabbing
headache in my jaw. so  i stopped wearing the NTI, and from that point
on, saw the socalled tmj experts at UCLa, who examined me and couldnt
reproduce any local pain, only a very tight opening that they were
able to stretch open enough that they only recommended pt and pretty
much funneled me to their psyche department. i then saw a couple more
dentists including a
Dr. Schames who is also from the white memoral tmj clinic i believe,
anyways he couldnt see any real problem or tenderness, so he tried to
convince me i had apnea that was causing my clenching, even though my
joint was starting to pop and make crackling and grating afterwards.
so after the last few months of trying to figure out who to believe,
meanwhile my jaw is still cracking and everything was in spasm, i
decide to give the NTI another go, since none of the bottles of pills
neurolgists have giving have accomplished anything, ive been wearing
it for 2 weeks now, and it seems to be helping, although my jaw is
still feeling very uncomfortable on the side that i know ive injured,
and  it is making less noise as well. I made another appointment with
DrBoydn next week to hopefully continue with this NTI, seeing as how
nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has
anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ
Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for
a flat fee of $5000.00

> Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI
> > is definetely helping
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:39 GMT
> seeing as how
> nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has
> anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ
> Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for
> a flat fee of $5000.00

Just highlighting that comment
The Webby - 30 May 2008 18:53 GMT
> > whats really strange to me,  is that all these guys in white coats
> > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> JMO,
> D

Interesting discussion/s.

Webby
Steven Fawks - 31 May 2008 02:55 GMT
And the little boy blurts out,  "The King is naked!"

;-)
Steve

> Interesting discussion/s.
>
> Webby
jerm - 31 May 2008 04:48 GMT
> And the little boy blurts out,  "The King is naked!"
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > Webby

the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the
headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain,
there seems to be this pain that radiates from just above the tmj that
pops into the back of my head near the nape of my neck. it seems to
start out small early in the day, and just progresses until ive got a
full blown headache. although always coming from that side that pops.
like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really
worried about that.
The Webby - 31 May 2008 06:24 GMT
In article
<0d892b8a-efbe-4c76-9f21-e322dea05cae@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> > And the little boy blurts out,  "The King is naked!"
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really
> worried about that.

I have known Dr. Boyd since 1996 ... and whether or not his plan works
for you, I have every reason to believe in his honor... and furthermore,
there isn't anyone in this newsgroup who has been posting here since the
early to mid to late 1990's who might comment upon "TMJ and NTI or
AGELK" who I would not have reason to respect.

Best wishes,

(The) Webby
Steven Fawks - 31 May 2008 13:58 GMT
> the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the
> headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really
> worried about that.

I understand that living with pain is upsetting and depressing.

I think with the right NTI design or combination, you will get
a lot of relief.  Doesn't mean you'll never need some ibuprofen,
but you shouldn't be suffering every day.

Your description makes me think the daytime appliance is what you're
missing.  If you're waking up feeling decent, the NTI has done it's
job.  If you pain grows during the day, you need help when the
regular NTI is at home on the night stand.

Just relay what's you were feeling a few weeks ago, what has improved
since you have been wearing the NTI, what symptoms you are left
with, and when/how they develop.

Steve
jerm - 31 May 2008 18:36 GMT
> > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the
> > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Steve

well, couple weeks ago my face and neck muscles were alot tighter and
in spasm.althought, still pretty tight,alot of my face musculature is
relaxing some for sure. it seems like im sleeping alot better
with the NTI for sure as well. im dreaming alot more undisturbed, as
before my sleep was completely fragmented and my head and neck was
completely painful to lay on. the pain im feeling now,seem to be more
localized around my tmj and ear. like now, its easy to say that its
one sided. i can tell that the headache starts with a twinge around my
ear thats referred to my neck movement, like if i shake my head i can
feel pain inside, and that pain seems to progress during the day. my
jaw was making a pop every few days when opening to eat something, and
that hasnt happened since wearing the NTI. However, ive had a couple
really mini pops when  looking up or rotating my head. im gonna be
seeing DrBoyd this week, and  i just hope im able to articulate what
really needs to be said.
jerm - 31 May 2008 18:45 GMT
> > > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the
> > > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain,
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> seeing DrBoyd this week, and  i just hope im able to articulate what
> really needs to be said.

also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that
ive been consistently wearing the device.
Newbie@bix.nex - 31 May 2008 19:24 GMT
>also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that
>ive been consistently wearing the device.

Not long enough.
Am checking my patients every ~2 wks up to 6 or 8.
By then most routine cases have responded favorably.

Some take longer.
jerm - 31 May 2008 19:38 GMT
On May 31, 11:24 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:

> >also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that
> >ive been consistently wearing the device.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Some take longer.

thats great to hear!
Steven Fawks - 01 Jun 2008 04:55 GMT
Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks.

:-)
Steve

> also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that
> ive been consistently wearing the device.
jerm - 01 Jun 2008 05:19 GMT
> Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that
> > ive been consistently wearing the device.

cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait  a
few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose.
Steven Fawks - 01 Jun 2008 14:17 GMT
LOL

If you drive off a cliff, see if you can borrow someones car
that you really don't like or owes you money.

;-)
Steve

>>Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait  a
> few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose.
The Webby - 01 Jun 2008 16:46 GMT
In article
<5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe253@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

> > Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait  a
> few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose.

Is there some other treatment plan you think is the one you need but
you're not getting?  

Webby
jerm - 01 Jun 2008 17:47 GMT
> In article
> <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Webby

no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings
gonna work.
jerm - 01 Jun 2008 17:51 GMT
> > In article
> > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings
> gonna work.

btw, what is thits AGELK thing?
jerm - 01 Jun 2008 18:43 GMT
> > > In article
> > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> my bite is moving around quite a bit.
jerm - 01 Jun 2008 22:47 GMT
> > > > In article
> > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> > my bite is moving around quite a bit.

but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
i just pop it back in during the day for a while?
The Webby - 01 Jun 2008 23:12 GMT
In article
<f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7eeb0@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > > > > In article
> > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
> i just pop it back in during the day for a while?

When is your appointment?

Webby
jerm - 02 Jun 2008 07:14 GMT
> In article
> <f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7e...@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Webby

this week.
The Webby - 02 Jun 2008 16:50 GMT
[clip]

> > When is your appointment?
> >
> > Webby
>
> this week.

Great then!  I hope you'll tell him that you've been sharing your
questions/concerns with smd.

Webby
The Webby - 02 Jun 2008 17:18 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> [clip]
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Webby

Also, I was thinking that the "Subject: NTI failure continued" may need
to be reworded soon!  

Webby
jerm - 02 Jun 2008 17:55 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Webby

i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping
The Webby - 02 Jun 2008 22:10 GMT
Then let's change the subject line!  What's your choice?

Webby

In article
<f1ddac7d-d45f-4ac2-b034-4d7c0c2a4884@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

> i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping
jerm - 03 Jun 2008 01:58 GMT
> Then let's change the subject line!  What's your choice?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> > i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping

well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru
life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet.
jerm - 03 Jun 2008 04:03 GMT
> > Then let's change the subject line!  What's your choice?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru
> life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet.
jerm - 03 Jun 2008 04:04 GMT
> > > Then let's change the subject line!  What's your choice?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru
> > life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet.

Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 00:33 GMT
>> > > Then let's change the subject line!  What's your choice?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here

Of course you can say whatever you want in newsgroups.
It's the last great bastion of free speech in the world.
And in some parts of the world is punished by death.

May freedom and liberty never die !
God bless the men and women who protect our freedom.

Never forget, freedom isn't free.
All it takes for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing.
jerm - 02 Jun 2008 17:18 GMT
> [clip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Webby

not a problem!
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:43 GMT
yes

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>>
>> > > > In article
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
> i just pop it back in during the day for a while?
jerm - 03 Jun 2008 04:05 GMT
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
> i just pop it back in during the day for a while?
Dartos - 03 Jun 2008 13:58 GMT
> but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
> i just pop it back in during the day for a while?

Wouldn't hurt until you see Jim and he might make a daytime appliance.

D
jerm - 03 Jun 2008 22:20 GMT
> > but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
> > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> D

its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl
ever be out of spasm.
jerm - 04 Jun 2008 00:15 GMT
> > > but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
> > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl
> ever be out of spasm.

btw, im  seeing Dr.Boyd this week and was wondering if there was
anything specific i may want
to be sure to ask him. Thanks
The Webby - 04 Jun 2008 01:44 GMT
In article
<45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12f31@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,

> > > > but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
> > > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> anything specific i may want
> to be sure to ask him. Thanks

What's on your list at this point?  Advice:  make a list of your
concerns and take it with you to the appointment.

Webby
jerm - 04 Jun 2008 18:43 GMT
> In article
> <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Webby

Thanks Webby, and thanks to everybody else on this board for being so
helpful. I saw
Dr. Boyd today and I and basically im going to use the lower NTI ive
got already during the day
and as much as possible for the next month and then go back for a
recheck. Thank God for
that guy, such a cool doctor.
The Webby - 04 Jun 2008 19:09 GMT
In article
<2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03ad9b@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> recheck. Thank God for
> that guy, such a cool doctor.

You're very welcome!  I put up one more post in response to an older
post of yours.  Hopefully, you'll see it and give us your thoughts.

It sounds as though you and Dr. Boyd have a good plan!  Best of luck to
you and hopefully you'll keep us posted as to your progress.

Webby
jerm - 05 Jun 2008 04:50 GMT
> In article
> <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Webby

Hey, sorry im back with another question that i didnt get to ask
Dr.Boyd.

before i had injured my jaw joint with an unnatural sideways opening,
i was already dealing with headaches,
that i thought were sinus related for a number of years ,that had
become just about daily and constant-i was told i had transfomed
migraine.
After i had the trauma to my jaw, everything went into complete
overdrive with spasms and headache and neck pain off the chart,and
unable to wear the NTI at first with so much jaw pain.Now, since ive
got these two overlapping conditions(or so i think) how would my
treatment with the NTI splint be different from somebody with just
routine jaw pain? Maybe this is a neurologist type question, i dont
know. I guess ive just had so many different opinions from
neurologists, in fact i had one tell me that people claiming to have
tmj pain were a pitfall for migraine diagnosis. But, i know for a fact
that i have real jaw pain popping, spasms, headaches,neck pain,etc.,
as well as a prior history of headaches before the jaw pain. OK, the
questions is  more simply, how would the diagnostic function of the
NTI be applied to my case?.........sorry i know its a bunch of
rambling.
these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think)
jerm - 05 Jun 2008 05:53 GMT
> > In article
> > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> rambling.
> these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think)

sorry Webby, I looked for the old post, but i didnt have anyluck
finding it.
jerm - 05 Jun 2008 05:56 GMT
> > In article
> > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> rambling.
> these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think)

Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
he do that without problems?
Steven Fawks - 05 Jun 2008 13:58 GMT
> Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
> he do that without problems?

By wearing an NTI every night <G>.

You see, Dr. Boyd was a young dentist (recently graduated from USC)
who was suffering with migraines and lots of jaw pain.  Noone had
been able to give him much relief, so he imersed himself in every
bit of information available to try and help himself.  (Sound
familiar?<G>)

He experimented with all kinds of bite guards/splints (mainly trying
to address the TMJ issues since he didn't know the headaches were
in fact related at the beginning).

He eventually placed a type of discluding element on the anterior
portion of a traditional TMJ splint.  Things got better with his
TMJ, and after some time, and he realized he wasn't grabbing a handful
of ibuprofen for his headaches each morning either.  This wasn't just
'neat', it was a huge discovery.  He did not regress, and he
wondered if it would work on others.  The connection of this multi-
tude of symptoms and a solution had been unearthed.

After having success with himself, he honed the design of his
appliance and began treating other patients for the same problems.
Most of them got better.  He studied more, talked to neurologists
himself (evidently some with more open minds than you have found).
He was able to offer the world a simple device with a fairly
simple protocol that could offer many suffering patients relief
that had previously been a huge, terribly expensive crap shoot.

This all led to the connection between clenching/jaw pain/migraine.
I believe it to be one of the major medical/dental break-throughs
of my lifetime.

So to go back to your story, you never had two separate problems
that got worse from an injured jaw.  You had this clenching issue
for years, and it just so happened that it got worse, the structures
were further stressed, and that one opening was the 'straw that
broke the camel's back'.

I'm sure that your neurologist 'friends' are intelligent, well-educated
folk.  They have (IMO) simply learned too much of the wrong thing.
Since they haven't been able to conquer this TMJ/migraine syndrome,
there is either a psychological component or some mysterious pathway
of pathology that is beyond known treatment.

Millions of dollars are being thrown down a rat hole, people are
suffering, people are getting worthless/sometimes dangerous treatment,
people are taking way too many drugs, all for the want of an NTI.

Best wishes,
Steve
jerm - 05 Jun 2008 20:53 GMT
> > Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
> > he do that without problems?
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> Best wishes,
> Steve

thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the
line if not, surgery?
Does that ever even help?, for a clencher even. My jaw popped  super
loud for the first time since
wearing the NTI again, pretty disheartening, as im sure ill be in pain
soon.
The Webby - 05 Jun 2008 23:45 GMT
In article
<6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d3934ac@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

[clip]

> thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the
> line if not, surgery?
> Does that ever even help?

What surgery do you have in mind?

Webby
jerm - 06 Jun 2008 01:05 GMT
> In article
> <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Webby

i dont have any planned, im still hoping the NTI is gonna help me out.
but i guess im just
thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved.
jerm - 06 Jun 2008 02:02 GMT
> > In article
> > <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> but i guess im just
> thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved.

I wonder why, for the last three weeks with the NTI, although i have
had headaches and some face pain, the side
that pops was silent, and now opening my mouth to eat some eggs i get
a  loud crack and subsequent grating for a while. a few hours later
now, my
jaw is starting to get sore, and im sure later the whole spasms and
migraine will be in full effect.

I also still cannot understand how these three "craniofacial pain
experts" could do theyre 400 dollar exams
and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all
these symptoms.
Amatus Cremona - 08 Jun 2008 00:41 GMT
Ignore the sounds.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>>
>> > In article
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all
> these symptoms.
jerm - 05 Jun 2008 23:06 GMT
> > Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
> > he do that without problems?
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> Best wishes,
> Steve

Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that
the injury was the result of
structures already injured. I actually did something incredibly
stupid. I had noticed that as I stretched my mouth
open, the "sinus" headache that id been plagued with forever seemed to
change. I had been surfing the web and came
across some jaw stretching exercises, and i followed the instructions
to jut my jaw sideways and open, and when i did came
the crack that changed everything. i remember clamping my jaw shut in
horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was
so fragile.
Steven Fawks - 06 Jun 2008 02:16 GMT
I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just
not listening.

Guess what the muscles that try and open your mouth are hooked to
on the other end.  The back of you sinus.  They are struggling
for hours each day to get your teeth apart and are causing inflamation
in that area.

Clenching is your problem (at least it is the trigger that is
leading to the cascade of other symptoms).

I've tried to baby sit you through this affair, but even I have
a limited amount of patience.

Every comment breeds 2-5 more questions, when you just need to
accept where you are and that Dr. Boyd is your best chance of
getting better.

You don't need to fully understand the whole issue.

Let the NTI work, or don't.  It's your choice.

Steve
> Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that
> the injury was the result of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was
> so fragile.
jerm - 06 Jun 2008 02:31 GMT
> I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just
> not listening.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was
> > so fragile.

sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal.
Steven Fawks - 06 Jun 2008 02:52 GMT
Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you
met Dr. Boyd.

What you need to do now is RELAX.  Quit looking for reasons for the
NTI to fail.  Let it do its job and don't complicate things.

Steve

> sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal.
jerm - 06 Jun 2008 06:09 GMT
> Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you
> met Dr. Boyd.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> > sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal.

cool, thanks again, i wont flood the board with my nonsense for a
while.......:)
Amatus Cremona - 08 Jun 2008 00:42 GMT
Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry.   You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all
the time.  The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a
normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back"

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> > Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
>> > he do that without problems?
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was
> so fragile.
jerm - 08 Jun 2008 01:28 GMT
> Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry.   You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all
> the time.  The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a
> normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back"

    I completely agree.   That was the first and last time I try to
argue with you guys!......thanks for the input.
> --
> /
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was
> > so fragile.
Newbie@bix.nex - 08 Jun 2008 16:50 GMT
>Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry.   You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all
>the time.  The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a
>normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back"

Luv how you break it down to the brass tacks.
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 01:44 GMT
Couldn't have said it better.

Since my re-education, thanks to you, AC, Dartos, my patients
have reaped the benefits for several years.

Jim, the pioneer, ridiculed as are many who solve a 'mystery'
with a seemingly *simple* but brilliant answer, IMO is sure to be in
the 'history of dentistry' books.

Sure there are practitioners in my area that are charging multiple
10s of Ks, for their own self aggrandizement for questionable
treatment.

Must tell you, and all of SMD, that there is an increasing
movement toward the NTI by the patients. Am getting asked more
and more often, by patients of all ages, and to my surprise, more men
than ever before, about relieving headaches.

If it works in my podunk, maybe it's a movement.
Am sure it is.

>> Btw, i heard the  Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does
>> he do that without problems?
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>Best wishes,
>Steve
The Webby - 07 Jun 2008 02:24 GMT
There are some points I'd like to add but I need some time to think it
through a bit first.  

Webby

> Couldn't have said it better.
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> >Best wishes,
> >Steve
The Webby - 07 Jun 2008 17:27 GMT
I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any
difference to the one person for whom I would be writing.  I see no
value in preaching to the choir.  

I'm getting a headache from all this... arghhhhhhh.

Webby

In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-4339EC.18242906062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> There are some points I'd like to add but I need some time to think it
> through a bit first.  
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> > >Best wishes,
> > >Steve
The Webby - 08 Jun 2008 01:58 GMT
I wanted to share a few thoughts mainly with jerm because most of the
others reading and posting to smd have heard it all before.  But I
decided not to post because it seems as though jerm is in a difficult
situation for reasons that none of us are truly in the position to
understand.

So it seemed a better idea to let things be and to simply wish jerm the
best.  (I was concerned that my post seemed a bit rude and it wasn't my
intention to be rude to jerm.)

Webby

In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-DE09DA.09275007062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any
> difference to the one person for whom I would be writing.  I see no
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> > > >Best wishes,
> > > >Steve
jerm - 08 Jun 2008 05:29 GMT
> I wanted to share a few thoughts mainly with jerm because most of the
> others reading and posting to smd have heard it all before.  But I
[quoted text clipped - 104 lines]
> > > > >Best wishes,
> > > > >Steve

No problem Webby, thanks. Im just happy to have gotten some free
advice from some knowledgeable people.
Newbie@bix.nex - 08 Jun 2008 16:45 GMT
>I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any
>difference to the one person for whom I would be writing.  I see no
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Webby

You worry too much.

Are you sleeping well ?
jerm - 08 Jun 2008 17:50 GMT
On Jun 8, 8:45 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:27:50 -0700, The Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Are you sleeping well ?

not too bad lately with NTI and the 50mg of elavil.
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:03 GMT
>On Jun 8, 8:45 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:27:50 -0700, The Webby
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>not too bad lately with NTI and the 50mg of elavil.

That's good to hear.

Ibuprofen dosage when used as an anti-inflammatory
is 800mg/q6h. 3200mg is the max daily dose.

For pain such as muscle or joint ache the dose is
400mg/q4h,

Do not exceed 3200mg per day.
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 01:19 GMT
>> > > but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
>> > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>anything specific i may want
>to be sure to ask him. Thanks

How about:  " I should cowboy up, and quit being a pansy, right ?"

My question to you "jerm" is:  "How often do you have insomnia ?"

Just tell Jim about your symptoms and experiences with the NTI.
He is the inventor and can and will help you.
You just sound hyperactive on usenet to me.
Can't relax, or sit still eh ?
jerm - 07 Jun 2008 01:30 GMT
On Jun 6, 5:19 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:

> >> > > but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
> >> > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> You just sound hyperactive on usenet to me.
> Can't relax, or sit still eh ?

I am imsomniac,  but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a
headache and a highspeed internet connection.
Newbie@bix.nex - 08 Jun 2008 16:47 GMT
> I am imsomniac,  but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a
>headache and a highspeed internet connection.

Insomnia will shorten your life significantly.

Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone.
Have been taking it for almost 5 years.
There is no tolerance nor liver function damage.
The Webby - 08 Jun 2008 23:23 GMT
> > I am imsomniac,  but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a
> >headache and a highspeed internet connection.

jerm, would you mind sharing your age with us?

Webby

> Insomnia will shorten your life significantly.
>
> Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone.
> Have been taking it for almost 5 years.
> There is no tolerance nor liver function damage.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 00:14 GMT
> In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>sure , im 34

> > Insomnia will shorten your life significantly.
>
> > Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone.
> > Have been taking it for almost 5 years.
> > There is no tolerance nor liver function damage.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 01:11 GMT
> > In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> > > Have been taking it for almost 5 years.
> > > There is no tolerance nor liver function damage.

Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it
constantly unless im eating.
The Webby - 09 Jun 2008 01:41 GMT
In article
<d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245e09@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> > > In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex
> > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it
> constantly unless im eating.

Do you think you might be wearing it more than Dr. Boyd recommended?

Webby
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 02:13 GMT
> In article
> <d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Webby

well, maybe. I think we discussed that i would be taking it out for
periods of times during the day, but   i was just a little concerned
about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not
freaking out or anything though.
reading about.
The Webby - 09 Jun 2008 02:36 GMT
In article
<53bc9496-6324-4baf-812e-4775b17bd650@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> freaking out or anything though.
> reading about.

Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that?
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 03:29 GMT
> In article
> <53bc9496-6324-4baf-812e-4775b17bd...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that?

No, I was just wondering.
The Webby - 09 Jun 2008 03:39 GMT
In article
<6a93e4c5-0ec1-4411-9a41-ad28d37133f1@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

[cut a bunch]

> > > > > Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it
> > > > > constantly unless im eating.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> No, I was just wondering.

I know that you're getting input from sci.med.dentistry and
alt.support.jaw-disorders but I'm wondering where else online you're  
getting additional information.  Do you think it's possible for too much
information to become confusing to you? Sometimes less is more and this
might be one of those times... do you think?

Webby
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:10 GMT
>> > Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Webby

Webby,

I mean this in the kindest way possible...

Lexapro works much better than Elavil.
Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 04:49 GMT
On Jun 8, 8:10 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:39:17 -0700, The Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Lexapro works much better than Elavil.
> Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind.

but lexapro had my jaw going crazy.........trazadone doesnt sound bad
though.......the running mind is ridiculous.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 05:27 GMT
On Jun 8, 8:10 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:39:17 -0700, The Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >information to become confusing to you? Sometimes less is more and this
> >might be one of those times... do you think?

    yeah probably.

> >Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Lexapro works much better than Elavil.
> Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind.
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:08 GMT
>was just a little concerned
>> > about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>No, I was just wondering.

Webby, you worry too much.
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:07 GMT
>> > Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it
>> > constantly unless im eating.
>>
>> Do you think you might be wearing it more than Dr. Boyd recommended?
>>
>> Webby

C'mon Webby, you know better than that.

>well, maybe. I think we discussed that i would be taking it out for
>periods of times during the day, but   i was just a little concerned
>about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not
>freaking out or anything though.
>reading about.

jerm stated that he takes out the NTI to eat.
Thereby super-eruption is impossible.
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:05 GMT
>Is it possible to wear the NTI too much?

A resounding NO !

>Im pretty much wearing it
>constantly unless im eating.

Excellent.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 04:07 GMT
On Jun 8, 8:05 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:

> >Is it possible to wear the NTI too much?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Excellent.

Than im married to the thing. I have no doubt the tension in my neck
is improving.
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Jun 2008 04:11 GMT
>On Jun 8, 8:05 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Than im married to the thing. I have no doubt the tension in my neck
>is improving.

Good deal, keep up the regiment.

Gotta go,
The Webby - 09 Jun 2008 04:15 GMT
[cut]

> Gotta go,

Thank goodness!  ;-)  You're driven me nutz!
Dartos - 09 Jun 2008 14:03 GMT
At this stage of treatment, I agree.

D

>>Is it possible to wear the NTI too much?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Excellent.
jerm - 09 Jun 2008 20:13 GMT
> At this stage of treatment, I agree.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> > Excellent.

My next appointment with Dr.Boyd was supposed to be at the end of this
month, and for whatever reason they
were unable to schedule me until July 30.
Dartos - 10 Jun 2008 14:21 GMT
My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy.

:-)
D

>>At this stage of treatment, I agree.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> month, and for whatever reason they
> were unable to schedule me until July 30.
jerm - 10 Jun 2008 14:25 GMT
> My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy.
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > month, and for whatever reason they
> > were unable to schedule me until July 30.

Yeah youre right im sure, but  he actually just got back  to me ,and
basically said if things go well
that date is fine.
Amatus Cremona - 10 Jun 2008 14:59 GMT
Actually that timing is probably preferable.

Jim Boyd is great guy.  He is much taller in person than he appears on
"Usenet"  :-)

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> basically said if things go well
> that date is fine.
jerm - 10 Jun 2008 15:15 GMT
> Actually that timing is probably preferable.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> /
> I think hes reading this stuff, because he knew i was improving before i told him.

> Amatus
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> > basically said if things go well
> > that date is fine.
Amatus Cremona - 10 Jun 2008 16:22 GMT
If he is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tell him to log in and say Hi!

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> Actually that timing is probably preferable.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> > basically said if things go well
>> > that date is fine.
jerm - 10 Jun 2008 17:04 GMT
> If he is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tell him to log in and say Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> >> > basically said if things go well
> >> > that date is fine.

 Ive been noticing that while constantly wearing the appliance my
overall head pain is improving, my actual mouth opening seems to
smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting
looser?
The Webby - 10 Jun 2008 17:14 GMT
Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities?  
Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading?  
Or do you go outside for a little exercise of any sort?  Do you share
mealtime with anyone?

In other words, how do you spend a normal day in your life?

Webby

In article
<0ee178b6-57f5-47f1-808b-1964295ba1fc@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

>   Ive been noticing that while constantly wearing the appliance my
> overall head pain is improving, my actual mouth opening seems to
> smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting
> looser?
jerm - 10 Jun 2008 18:19 GMT
> Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities?
> Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting
> > looser?

Lol.... ......i admit to compulsively checking my email and other
internet sites, but for the most part
the only constructive thing im doing at this point is limping through
a photography program. I dont know if  your just curious or
psychoanalyze
me, however, if the latter is the case i can save you some time and
just confess to being clinically depressed at this point, probably
with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this
freaking jaw and headache.
jerm - 10 Jun 2008 18:42 GMT
> > Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities?
> > Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this
> freaking jaw and headache.

As far as exercise, im not really getting much. Ive been a surfer for
most of my life  traveling around
tropic destinations, so this dragged illness had put a major damper on
things.
The Webby - 10 Jun 2008 19:24 GMT
In article
<02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ecd13@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,

> > > Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities?
> > > Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> > with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this
> > freaking jaw and headache.

No.. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you... I *am* trying to gain a bit
of insight into certain elements of your life.  How we feel can have an
impact on how we live, right?  And to some extent, if we can modify how
we live in ways that brighten our spirits, we might feel better in
general! I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this to you.

Why are you taking a photography program?  That sounds interesting...
but you seem less than enthused.

> As far as exercise, im not really getting much. Ive been a surfer for
> most of my life  traveling around
> tropic destinations, so this dragged illness had put a major damper on
> things.

Surfing... so you must be a swimmer.  Have you thought about finding
some water and swimming regularly?  

Best to you,
Webby
jerm - 11 Jun 2008 00:10 GMT
> In article
> <02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ec...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> Best to you,
> Webby

Hi Webby,  I didnt mean to sound like a smartass! Thanks for even
being concerned, I appreciate it.
I really wanted to do this photography thing, but its just almost
impossible to concentrate, and it takes major concentration.
Your right about the swimming, i cant surf like this, but I could swim
for sure. Its so weird how depressing this deal is. you think your
making
progress maybe, and then despair sets in, and your right back to
square  one. ahhhhhh.....oh well.
The Webby - 11 Jun 2008 00:57 GMT
In article
<4f0be666-cac7-432a-a19d-7cd6654d8edc@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ec...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
> progress maybe, and then despair sets in, and your right back to
> square  one. ahhhhhh.....oh well.

Good enough!!  Go catch some water even if you're not up to catching a
wave.

Webby
Dartos - 11 Jun 2008 14:29 GMT
if the latter is the case i can save you some time and
> just confess to being clinically depressed at this point, probably
> with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this
> freaking jaw and headache.

Seldom is a problem related to just one cause.  Did clenching/pain
cause the depression?  Did depression/drugs worsen the clenching
to cause the pain?  My money is on the latter, but the important
thing is realize that the success of treatment is tied to dealing
with all of the issues related to your symptoms.  Clenching is a
major one, and the NTI is the best thing going for that, but it
isn't going to eliminate depression, which may be the root cause for
the clenching getting out of hand.

You had been living with a clenching problem for years that was
below a clinical threshold of causing much pain.  Some bumps in
the road showed up, and you crossed over to the painful side of
the problem.

The NTI helps control the clenching, but it will not smooth the road
for you to deal with the other issues.  Sometimes when you are in the
middle of a complicated situation, it is difficult to see the whole
picture and develop an effective solution.

Webby's advice is excellent.  Get out and do something.  Sitting around
being obsessed with your pain is not going to do you any good.
Distracting, recreational, rewarding, and uplifting activities will
help you rebound from your present low.  Heck, even joining an online
dating service would be better than your present computer use.

JMO,
D
jerm - 11 Jun 2008 16:48 GMT
> if the latter is the case i can save you some time and
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> JMO,
> D

I was probably clenching in my sleep for years, most likely it became
entrenched as a result of
alot of my recreational drug use during the 90's. I can remember many
many early mornings forcing myself
to sleep while my jaw was going nuts from the party substances. I
sobered up about 2 years ago(6 months prior to this problem) and my
sleep
and mental health definitely took a turn for the worse. I also self
medicated with lots of benzos for years until this time, so add that
to my other external struggles and im sure it explains alot. Its
weird, a few months before i had opened my mouth sideways and
dislocated one side, I had had another accident that i can remember
preceding the headaches i was waking up with not soon after. while out
surfing, another surfer ditched his board and it
struck me in the head, perfectly across my temple and ear. I remember
that in the next days i noticed i couldnt get comfortable on the
couch, and later started waking up with headaches. The depression
started to get bad right about this time.  About a month later was
when i had stretched my jaw and it cracked loose, from that point on
everything went crazy with pain, and so did I with
depression!...........sorry to bore anybody with this
nonsense.......Oh I am on some dating sites!...................
Dartos - 11 Jun 2008 18:04 GMT
The Temporalis muscle is a major elevator involved in clenching.
Damage to this area could easily make things worse.  (Oh yeah,
guess where it's located <G>).

 Its
> weird, a few months before i had opened my mouth sideways and
> dislocated one side, I had had another accident that i can remember
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that in the next days i noticed i couldnt get comfortable on the
> couch, and later started waking up with headaches.

...Oh I am on some dating sites!...................

Then go meet someone and get out of the house!

;-)
D
The Webby - 12 Jun 2008 04:19 GMT
I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm.

Webby

> ...Oh I am on some dating sites!...................
>
> Then go meet someone and get out of the house!
>
> ;-)
> D
jerm - 12 Jun 2008 14:17 GMT
> I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > ;-)
> > D

Well, it seems like as long as I keep the splint in i feel pretty
decent, but about an hour later after taking it out the cramp on the
one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a
plastic piece. I get withdrawals.
The Webby - 12 Jun 2008 14:40 GMT
In article
<1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd21138433e2@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a
> plastic piece. I get withdrawals.

Hello jerm.  On another note, what did you do yesterday?  How did you
spend your day?

Webby
jerm - 12 Jun 2008 14:50 GMT
> In article
> <1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd2113843...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Webby
Hi Webb, managed to get through a class, bought stuff, ate mushy food,
ate pills, sleep.
The Webby - 12 Jun 2008 15:04 GMT
In article
<d119704e-e113-48ff-96e0-7dc1ca492a3b@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd2113843...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Hi Webb, managed to get through a class, bought stuff, ate mushy food,
> ate pills, sleep.

Okay... what's with the "mushy food"?  Maybe you're hungry???  Or, not
satisfied by the limitations of the foods you're choosing????  Maybe
I/we have some ideas for making mealtime more satisfying.  

So, what did you eat yesterday?  Let's see if today can be made more
interesting!  

Webby
Dartos - 12 Jun 2008 19:06 GMT
Better than adding more drugs <G>.

D

> Well, it seems like as long as I keep the splint in i feel pretty
> decent, but about an hour later after taking it out the cramp on the
> one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a
> plastic piece. I get withdrawals.
The Webby - 12 Jun 2008 19:45 GMT
> Better than adding more drugs <G>.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a
> > plastic piece. I get withdrawals.

I never needed glasses until my arms got too short.  Since I needed to
be able to see in order to read, I had to get some "readers".  The
"readers" weren't good enough after a period of time... so I got another
prescription with correction near and far.  I *need* the prescribed
glasses in order to manage my day to day life.  

Some people have "conditions" that respond to certain prescribed
"remedies" for the problems caused by the "conditions".

As for the "TMJ" stuff... well, some people need human engineered parts
too.  I should know.

Webby
jerm - 13 Jun 2008 00:10 GMT
> In article <1213281517_210...@news.newsville.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Webby

hey, ive been reading some of your posts and it seems youve really
been through it. im sorry about your struggle, i can almost imagine
where youve been.
The Webby - 13 Jun 2008 03:48 GMT
In article
<7d434aa1-84e6-485b-b854-66854e937560@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article <1213281517_210...@news.newsville.com>,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> been through it. im sorry about your struggle, i can almost imagine
> where youve been.

Thank you for your compassion, jerm.  Fortunately for you, today it is
much more difficult to get caught up in the mess/messes I did which
originally began in 1981.  As it sometimes goes in life, I was one of
those people in the wrong place at the wrong time.  But, I have tried my
best to make lemonade from all the lemons I never asked for nor
deserved.

Switching gears, so what'd you have for dinner????  (I might be able to
offer a few meal ideas... )

Webby
jerm - 13 Jun 2008 06:21 GMT
> In article
> <7d434aa1-84e6-485b-b854-66854e937...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Webby

Hi webby, I had chicken breast, and I just did alot of the work with
the knife and fork. I am able to
chew without much pain at all. its more like jaw fatigue and
discomfort when chewing. At this point  im just trying to do
everything that im supposed to  do in order to give myself a chance at
getting better-such as avoiding the chewy foods, which im finding
difficult. Im about 6'3 220 and am used to really stuffing myself
with food!  Im just about at the one month mark with the NTI.
jerm - 13 Jun 2008 00:10 GMT
> Better than adding more drugs <G>.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a
> > plastic piece. I get withdrawals.

Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during
the day?
Dartos - 13 Jun 2008 13:10 GMT
I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for
comfort*.  I've seen a few people who abused their teeth
pretty badly.

My WAG from across the net is that some of your meds, and/or your
depression are factors in this game beyond 'normal TMJ troubles'.

But, I admit to not being an expert in psychology, pharmacology,
or neurology.

D

>>Better than adding more drugs <G>.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during
> the day?
jerm - 13 Jun 2008 17:00 GMT
> I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for
> comfort*.  I've seen a few people who abused their teeth
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> But, I admit to not being an expert in psychology, pharmacology,
> or neurology.

     Hey Dartos,   Im sure depression is making things worse for
sure. But it seems like the combo of jaw problems, clenching and
depression seems to put the experts in  neurology and pharmacology in
a dilemma. They would like to give me all these meds that help with
depression, but unfortunately they all make you clench to some degree.
So  with my compromised jaw deal and clenching already, i think im
just irritating doctors. I actually told the neurologist that works
with Dr.Boyd that i was depressed at this point , having been through
the ringer for almost a year, and he didnt recommend anything other
than the elavil im taking, along with the NTI of course. So, im
guessing there alot of factors that can play into this weird
disease;whats that called co-morbidity or something? I think ive been
reading to much info on the net about disease. Maybe I shouldve stayed
in school and studied pathology since im such a freaking
hypochondriac. Btw, im pretty amazed that you docs that practice
medicine, yet still take an interest in people on the net youve never
even seen.
> D
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during
> > the day?
The Webby - 13 Jun 2008 17:46 GMT
In article
<cfdbc3e8-95fa-4bbd-a5c5-bb3e09e6f224@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for
> > comfort*.  I've seen a few people who abused their teeth
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> medicine, yet still take an interest in people on the net youve never
> even seen.

jerm, have you tried "talk therapy"?  

Webby
The Webby - 13 Jun 2008 19:59 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-64A8BD.09464213062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <cfdbc3e8-95fa-4bbd-a5c5-bb3e09e6f224@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Webby

I think you have things to talk about.  Our healthcare society has gone
pill-crazy, forgetting that some of what ails us truly depends upon
human contact.  Any kind of prolonged health problem can create a very
isolating lifestyle.  I see that sci.med.dentistry is filling a part of
your need for human contact; and I'm really happy for you if you're
finding that your time around here is well spent.

In the other world, the real world where you *live*, you also need to
find human contact to remind you that you are alive and that *you have
something to give others* just as much as they may be in a position to
give to you.  People need people.

I founded an organization a long time ago called the TMJ Foundation. Its
purposes were mainly support and education for people concerned with
matters of the TMJ often called "TMJ".  One of the most productive
elements of the organization was the community service projects.  There
was just something so healing about and for a group of people who had
all sorts of problems (some financially devastated, marriages destroyed,
jobless) but who set aside their own suffering in order to helps others
who were in need of help.  

So in a nutshell, what I'm saying is that as hard as life can be for you
right now, there are avenues you can take to at least get you to realize
that you have a lot to give ... and that helps us to feel more whole.  
Whether you find an affordable therapist to talk to for a few sessions
or not is really only one way to help you *feel* like you can get the
world off your shoulders.  But if you can find something in your
community to do ... I can assure you that you can discover that you can
make a difference in someone else's life... if you can make one person's
life better in some small way, you have made a difference.

Penny for your thoughts, jerm.

Webby
The Webby - 13 Jun 2008 20:14 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[clip]

> But if you can find something in your
> community to do ... I can assure you that you can discover that you can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Webby

Here's an example of a volunteer position that most people might not
think about:

~~~~~~~~~~
Description

The Blind Center's league plays at The Silver Nugget on Mondays from
11:15 to 1:15. The Silver Nugget donates equiptment and lanes. (The
Silver Nugget is located within 3 miles of The Blind Center)

This is the perfect opportunity for anyone interested in sharing their
love for bowling as we need assistants to help our members while they
bowl. You don't have to be a great bowler, just have a good attitude and
be encouraging!

Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or
you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if
you're interested please let us know right away!

Some knowledge of bowling is a plus but no experience is needed. We will
train!
~~~~~~~~~~~

It does sound like fun !!  

Webby
jerm - 14 Jun 2008 00:24 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Webby

Hey Webby whats up, I actually did try therapy and psychologists, but
mostly I would leave
even more annoyed by looking for answers and receiving nothing but
feigned concern, and little in the
way of solutions, but i suppose thats not really their job anyways.
That volunteer idea is great, thanks! Ive thought
of doing that but always just put it off. That really would be
infinitely better than wasting away at home. But, today was actually
a pretty good day, i managed to forget about my pain for a few hours-
first time in a year easily. I think the NTI is working, just slowly
and really gradually, so its difficult to gauge my progress.
jerm - 15 Jun 2008 04:13 GMT
> > In article
> > <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> first time in a year easily. I think the NTI is working, just slowly
> and really gradually, so its difficult to gauge my progress.

I actually chomped through a famous star with cheese without a pop or
a twinge. My jaw was a little tired afterwards. My over all pain level
is definitely improving.
jerm - 15 Jun 2008 04:29 GMT
> > > In article
> > > <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> a twinge. My jaw was a little tired afterwards. My over all pain level
> is definitely improving.

Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been
filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating
the TMD with the NTI. I would like to get it handled before it falls
out, but im worried about making my headache situation worse. thanks
Steven Fawks - 15 Jun 2008 12:57 GMT
> Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been
> filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating
> the TMD with the NTI. I would like to get it handled before it falls
> out, but im worried about making my headache situation worse. thanks

One cavity shoudn't be too much of an ordeal now that things are
improving.  If it is on the side of the tooth, you may not have
to open extremely wide to have access.  Mention your recent jaw
trouble and take a short break or two during the process.

JMO,
Steve
jerm - 15 Jun 2008 22:57 GMT
> > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been
> > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> JMO,
> Steve

good deal,  i might wait until im even better just for good measure. I
cant believe im actually feeling better!.......not great, but
definitely much better.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 01:52 GMT
> > > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been
> > > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> cant believe im actually feeling better!.......not great, but
> definitely much better.

false alarm, I seem to be regressing right back to square one.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 04:32 GMT
> > > > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been
> > > > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> false alarm, I seem to be regressing right back to square one.

i really thought things  were going in the right direction. but my jaw
seems to be getting tighter and more painful. once again, i am waking
up with a sore neck,  and today i had a full blown migraine.
a full blown migraine
Steven Fawks - 17 Jun 2008 04:49 GMT
Again I say:

No journey is made without a set back or two.  The question is
have you been doing BETTER over the last few weeks than you were
before really wearing the NTI?

If you have been better, things might still improve.  It isn't a
"cure".  It is a treatment.

A few days with comfort and then one day with pain is not a sign
to give up!

You seem to look at any recurence of discomfort as a total failure.

That's not a reasonable approach.

Steve

> i really thought things  were going in the right direction. but my jaw
> seems to be getting tighter and more painful. once again, i am waking
> up with a sore neck,  and today i had a full blown migraine.
> a full blown migraine
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 05:07 GMT
> Again I say:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> > up with a sore neck,  and today i had a full blown migraine.
> > a full blown migraine

i know im sorry, im just having a hard time
being objective about my progress. looking back, its difficult to say
how much
better i am, while still having pain on a daily basis.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 05:16 GMT
> > Again I say:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> how much
> better i am, while still having pain on a daily basis.

i think its helped to some degree, but i still at this point daily
cant even sit through a one hour class and pay attention
through the cramp in my jaw. Im not meaning to be a nuisance, but if
you think what im dealing with at the
one month mark is acceptable, i will keep going with the splint and
keep my mouth shut from now.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 06:04 GMT
> > > Again I say:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> one month mark is acceptable, i will keep going with the splint and
> keep my mouth shut from now.

my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.
Dartos - 17 Jun 2008 13:43 GMT
> my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.

Can you wear the NTI during class (or at least on the commute)?

D
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 16:41 GMT
> > my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.
>
> Can you wear the NTI during class (or at least on the commute)?
>
> D

it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
The Webby - 17 Jun 2008 18:08 GMT
In article
<2e62b84a-b727-4f9d-a0e4-c21791754358@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,

> > > my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.

I was wondering whether you've gone swimming yet.  The reason I think it
would be good for you is as follows:

1.  Swimming requires certain mouth positions for "good breathing
technique".  Exhaling while your face in in the water requires your
teeth to be apart.  Opening your mouth to breathe, also requires only a
certain amount of opening in order to get your head back in the water
for proper stroke/breathing continuity.

2.  You can start with a limited time or lap goal and add to it.  

3.  You can focus on what swimmers focus on while swimming ... usually
it's almost meditational.

This is just an idea because it would provide you with some time to do
something that really makes it difficult to clench.

I have spent plenty of time in the water and this is why I suggest this,
jerm.   What do you have to lose by getting in a pool and doing some
laps?

Webby
The Webby - 17 Jun 2008 18:19 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-B432C6.10082517062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <2e62b84a-b727-4f9d-a0e4-c21791754358@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Webby

Also, jerm, if you can find a pool easily but it's too short for serious
lap swimming, bobbing is an excellent alternative or something you can
use during your sets of laps too.  "Bobbing" also will not allow you to
clench!  And it will also give you time to just sort of space out and
relax too.

A few words of advice from someone who swam and coached and taught
enough to have some confidence in the advice being useful if used!  :-)

Webby
Dartos - 17 Jun 2008 19:20 GMT
Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into
a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
were sitting in my office.

Regression in an hour just does not a usual description for
patients I have dealt with.

Sorry for not having a better answer,

D

>>>my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 19:28 GMT
> Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into
> a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> D

 thats alright, thing is its just the side that i injured that gets
the cramping pain not soon
after removing it.

> >>>my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 19:57 GMT
> On Jun 17, 11:23 am, Dartos <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote:> Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into
> > a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
> > condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
> > were sitting in my office.

Maybe I am mentally ill. But, it sure seems like the only people with
that opinion of me, are the
doctors who have been unable to help me.

> > Regression in an hour just does not a usual description for
> > patients I have dealt with.
>
> > Sorry for not having a better answer,
>
> > D

>   thats alright, thing is its just the side that i injured that gets
> the cramping pain not soon
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
The Webby - 17 Jun 2008 22:47 GMT
jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of
the joint you have all the trouble with?  If so, what was done and when?
 
Webby

In article
<6f1f58c2-b320-4201-9f7c-cd2f15ab7772@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

> > On Jun 17, 11:23 am, Dartos <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote:> Makes me
> > think that there is "something" that has turned you into
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> >
> > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 22:59 GMT
> jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of
> the joint you have all the trouble with?  If so, what was done and when?

   I havent had any, although i tried to push for them, but when the
doctors Ive seen wouldnt even back me up my
insurance kept denying me. Dr. Schames this dentist at white memorial
craniofacial pain clinic said i didnt have anything that warranted any
imaging. UCLA just treated me like im a lunatic. One neurologist tried
to get me an MRI authorized, but even
after he sent a bunch of dication they still denied me. Dr. Boyd said
that I probably have a displaced disk on that side.
> Webby
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
The Webby - 17 Jun 2008 23:12 GMT
I was just wondering if any studies were done.  I wasn't meaning that
they should have been... just wondering *if*.

So... have you hit the water yet????  You can do bobs for a couple
minutes or longer, swim a few laps, bob some more ... and after 30
minutes, you should feel *better* about a whole lot of stuff.  So... hit
the water and take your mind off all this other stuff!!!  You can't
clench and swim at the same time!!!!!

Webby

In article
<e37d0b17-326d-4ae2-b038-55c9157086be@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> > jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of
> > the joint you have all the trouble with?  If so, what was done and when?
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> >
> > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.
jerm - 17 Jun 2008 23:13 GMT
> I was just wondering if any studies were done.  I wasn't meaning that
> they should have been... just wondering *if*.
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> > > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad.

Lol......maybe your right.
The Webby - 17 Jun 2008 23:18 GMT
In article
<55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c84854f@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > I was just wondering if any studies were done.  I wasn't meaning that
> > they should have been... just wondering *if*.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > Webby

> Lol......maybe your right.

Okay then!  What are you waiting for???

Webb!
jerm - 18 Jun 2008 02:52 GMT
> In article
> <55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c848...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Webb!

I totally would, but the migraine i had yesterday is back again, right
on time.
The Webby - 18 Jun 2008 03:12 GMT
In article
<f219c858-4d0e-41cd-b9f2-bb2e9b243d8b@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c848...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I totally would, but the migraine i had yesterday is back again, right
> on time.

Where is this water?
The Webby - 18 Jun 2008 03:15 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-C63815.19122017062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <f219c858-4d0e-41cd-b9f2-bb2e9b243d8b@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Where is this water?

If I am acting as "coach", don't mess with me!  I don't want to hear
about why you aren't in the water... I want to SEE you IN the water
(NOW)!!!

Webby!!!
jerm - 18 Jun 2008 04:17 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-C63815.19122017062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Webby!!!

Right away!......sorry for disobeying orders.....im getting wet
immediately..................does it mean anything that triptan drugs
barely do anything for my headaches????
Dartos - 18 Jun 2008 17:12 GMT
>>> a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
>>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
>>> were sitting in my office.
>
> Maybe I am mentally ill. But, it sure seems like the only people with
>  that opinion of me, are the doctors who have been unable to help me.

I didn't mean you were bonkers.  It's just that the brain and the
nervous system run on electricity and chemicals.  If the wrong signals
are being sent to the wrong areas, normal function may no longer exist.

At this time, nobody has a complete understanding of this and an ability
to change things reliably for the better.  Lots of people believe that
taking the right actions and taking control of your thoughts can improve
your mental health (read: functioning of your brain and nervous
system...not whether you are crazy or sane).

Why are there so many belief systems in the world?  Everyone is
searching for that inner peace which helps them remain calm and
relaxed in a chaotic world.  All of the religions, Yoga, martial
arts (if you get into them very far), Norman Vincent Peale's books,
etc., all try to direct you to a system that helps your inner self.

Some people believe you can change your brain function with the right
attitudes, beliefs, and actions.  Others believe in a combination of
the right prescription meds.  I don't know.

As much as we have learned about medicine and science, we have probably
barely scratched the surface of the entire universe of information.

D
jerm - 18 Jun 2008 17:31 GMT
> >>> a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
> >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> D

I just find it difficult to believe that my emotions and mental
stability is causing my pain. Its not like
I sit around and cry all day. Basically my life sucks only because of
the headaches and pain in my jaw. If it wasnt
for this junk, id be down the street at the beach right now without a
care in the world.
jerm - 18 Jun 2008 17:47 GMT
> > >>> a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
> > >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> for this junk, id be down the street at the beach right now without a
> care in the world.

but then again, what do I know.
jerm - 18 Jun 2008 18:03 GMT
> > > >>> a mega-clencher.  Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental
> > > >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> but then again, what do I know.

or is it just my cns is all screwed up.
Dartos - 18 Jun 2008 22:30 GMT
That something hurts?

;-(
D

> but then again, what do I know.
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 02:28 GMT
> That something hurts?
>
> ;-(
> D
>
> > but then again, what do I know.

Man, im in more pain right now than ive ever been in. I know that this
is hard for all the NTI believers, but
its not helping me, in fact im getting worse.
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 03:44 GMT
> > That something hurts?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> is hard for all the NTI believers, but
> its not helping me, in fact im getting worse.

Three days with a nonstop headache, and my jaw is tighter and giving
me more pain than ever.
I wish i knew what to do.
Dartos - 19 Jun 2008 14:15 GMT
My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
the NTI 'manual'.

D

>>>That something hurts?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> me more pain than ever.
> I wish i knew what to do.
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 18:24 GMT
> My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
> the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > me more pain than ever.
> > I wish i knew what to do.

just keep going back then huh.
Steven Fawks - 21 Jun 2008 12:38 GMT
I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
options.

Make a 'standard' NTI and 80% of patients get better fast.

A little tweaking here or there, and another 10-15% show
improvement.

The last 5% are tough.

Steve

> just keep going back then huh.
jerm - 21 Jun 2008 16:15 GMT
> I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
> options.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> > just keep going back then huh.

thanks Steve, im sure im a tough case with the migraine and the
stressed and depressed profile, but I can already
tell I cant live without it at this point.
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 07:14 GMT
> I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
> options.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Steve

Steve, are the last 5% just tough, or are they definitely not going
to work out?

> > just keep going back then huh.
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 07:59 GMT
> > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
> > options.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> > > just keep going back then huh.

hows this guys claim......-------->.The NTI device is only about 50%
effective, mainly for people who clench their teeth. If your joints
pop and click then you have a derangement that needs functional
treatment to correct. The NTI is only a simple band-aid. It will help,
maybe, to quiet the pain, but it will do nothing to correct the joint
problem (actually in some cases it could make it worse).

John Halmaghi, DDS
Amatus Cremona - 23 Jun 2008 11:23 GMT
The guy has not figured out how to justify billing $30K for a full mouth
re-hab when the NTI has a greater success rate.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> On Jun 21, 4:38 am, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> > > just keep going back then huh.

hows this guys claim......-------->.The NTI device is only about 50%
effective, mainly for people who clench their teeth. If your joints
pop and click then you have a derangement that needs functional
treatment to correct. The NTI is only a simple band-aid. It will help,
maybe, to quiet the pain, but it will do nothing to correct the joint
problem (actually in some cases it could make it worse).

John Halmaghi, DDS
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 17:29 GMT
In article
<33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9d32@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

> > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more
> > options.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> > > just keep going back then huh.

Ask your docs if there could be a problem with your coronoid process.
It's a long......long shot... but *worth* asking.  And ask *if* the MRI
will provide a good study of that structure (right and left).

The guy figures it's a no-brainer to get an MRI to prove (to you) that
your "clicking" is because of an internal derangement inside the joint.  
That's all well and good and expensive ... but does it also prove that
facial bones related to the jaw function are not part of the problem?

Rule in and rule out.  

That is my two-cents on the subject for now.

Webby
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 17:34 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-6D6EC3.09293523062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9d32@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Webby

Oops ... forgot to add Stove Pipe's comment too... Eagle Syndrome.  
Sorry Stovie!!
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 17:43 GMT
> In article
> <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Webby

The doctor who ordered the MRI is a neurologist I havent seen for a
couple months(took that long to get it authorized), and
I had'nt really planned on going back to him since I see Dr.Boyd with
a really good neurologist. Anyways, the MRI
is scheduled for tomorrow for the bilateral TMJs, and Im trying to
decide if I should cancel or not.
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 17:51 GMT
In article
<b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f079@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> is scheduled for tomorrow for the bilateral TMJs, and Im trying to
> decide if I should cancel or not.

Did you ask Dr. Boyd what he thinks?  What do you have to lose by
delaying it until you talk to him? *And* ask if you might be better
served by getting a CT scan instead or in addition to an MRI *if* it's
time to get studies at this point.

Webby
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 18:16 GMT
> In article
> <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Webby

Havent had a chance to ask him, but i suppose things could still get
better yet, so
like your saying I might as well wait.
jerm - 24 Jun 2008 02:46 GMT
> In article
> <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Webby

I cancelled it and sent him an email. I hate that im not doing better
and feel like
a complete nuisance. I can even concentrate with this pain. I think i
better drop my classes as well.
People just look at me like im the biggest grouch in the world. I
guess its all showing on my facial expression.
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 03:36 GMT
In article
<6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf033@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> People just look at me like im the biggest grouch in the world. I
> guess its all showing on my facial expression.

jerm, I have to do a few things and then I'll be back with some comments.

Webby
jerm - 24 Jun 2008 04:10 GMT
> In article
> <6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> Webby

No prob, thanks.....Jim just emailed me and said about the MRI that I
should
go for it. its not giving me a good feeling.
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 05:20 GMT
In article
<260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> should
> go for it. its not giving me a good feeling.

Hmmmm.  Ask him what you can learn from the MRI than you can not learn
from a CT (3-D) as it might apply to your condition.

Webby
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 05:22 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-E2B548.21204623062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Webby

P.S.  I have know Dr. Boyd, personally, for a dozen years.

Webby
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 05:28 GMT
In article
<260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
[cut to shorten]

> > > > > The doctor who ordered the MRI is a neurologist I havent seen for a
> > > > > couple months(took that long to get it authorized), and
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> should
> go for it. its not giving me a good feeling.

Did you ask him why you should have an MRI instead of a CT ... *or* why
you should have both?  You can tell him that I asked you to ask him.  I
have no problem with that.

Webby
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 05:41 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-F391DE.21282023062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Webby

jerm, I asked as I did only because he said you should go on with the
MRI.  Had he not said that, my question/s would not have been the same.  
Instead, I would have asked you to ask him if you need a "study" ... and
if so, which study/s should you have in order to *"rule in and rule
out"* whatever it is "they" are looking for in answer to your unresolved
symptoms.

Anyway, maybe I should have kept my fingers tied down or my keyboard
locked up.  Hmmmmm.

Webby
jerm - 24 Jun 2008 05:54 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-F391DE.21282023062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Webby

Its alright, I can tell that Im not progressing as hoped. I just cant
figure out why
all the exams ive had were supposedly negative, while having all these
real symptoms that make real
noises. And now, still not doing hot with a device that should help
me. Seems like
the blame is falling on myself.
jerm - 24 Jun 2008 05:42 GMT
> In article
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Webby

I only let him know by email that I could get it done and paid for,
and he just sent a short reply
saying to go for it, and that it might solve a mystery, as ive been
plaguing him for a while now.
Im guessing that not having a dramatic resolution by now my chances
are dwindling possibly.

Thanks Webby
The Webby - 24 Jun 2008 05:59 GMT
In article
<8c6e19d2-f9db-487f-9f83-d58c68405d72@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826cc...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, jerm
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Thanks Webby

*NO*.  No one said your chances of a resolution are dwindling. You
forgot about the *patience* part of it all. ...

You're tired of it all ... that doesn't mean you should conclude
anything yet.  Get some rest tonight and arise tomorrow with some
strength you do not have right now at the end of the day.

I am going to start a new thread about this subject tomorrow. It's time
to shift gears just a bit.

Webby
jerm - 26 Jun 2008 00:36 GMT
> In article
> <8c6e19d2-f9db-487f-9f83-d58c68405...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Webby

btw, is an MRI of the tmjs a reliable study or indicator of whats
going on, or are there alot of false positives and negatives?
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 18:25 GMT
> My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
> the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > me more pain than ever.
> > I wish i knew what to do.

seems like motrin is the only thing aborts the headaches, and im still
wondering if using it is gonna
set me for rebound headaches. Imitrex barely does anything.
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 18:26 GMT
> My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
> the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
> the NTI 'manual'.
>
> D
I emailed Jim and he mentioned another device he uses called the
multipurpose NTI?

> >>>That something hurts?
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > me more pain than ever.
> > I wish i knew what to do.
jerm - 19 Jun 2008 20:57 GMT
> My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
> the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > me more pain than ever.
> > I wish i knew what to do.

Dr.Boyd has another device called the multipurpose NTI. Im guessing
its for the super clencher.  I guess he's just
gonna hook me up no charge. One cool guy that Dr. Boyd.
jerm - 20 Jun 2008 17:12 GMT
> My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of
> the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> > me more pain than ever.
> > I wish i knew what to do.

This was posted on this board i believe

Alexander Vasserman DDS., BS
This will allow
me to quickly diagnose wheither the problem is occlusal dysfunction,
true nocturnal parafunction (very rare), or nuerological in origin
(certain recreational drug use can cause this). If the problem is the
first in the list it can be treated so that you will not need the
night guard. If it is the 2nd a hard occlusal splint is needed to be
worn at night or when you are under stress this will protect your
teeth during grinding. If it is the third there are no known
treatments for this it would not matter what you would do or what type
of dentistry you have done you will distroy anything placed in your
mouth.

I mean i have a history of recreational use back in the nineties, but
I have completely abstained for a few years.
Does this mean that my condition is untreatable, and that i am going
to "destroy anything placed in my mouth?", or is this referring to
a current user who is trying to treat his bruxism. I have been using
the NTI for more than a month and i havent destroyed it, only put a
couple light grooves.
Dartos - 18 Jun 2008 22:30 GMT
Causing and contributing are two different issues.

;-)
D

> I just find it difficult to believe that my emotions and mental
> stability is causing my pain.
StovePipe - 22 Jun 2008 07:26 GMT
> Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or
> you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if
> you're interested please let us know right away!

.... Um..... who's doing the driving....?....

;-)

Cheers
SP
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 03:54 GMT
In article
<518f1e05-6b36-4605-827c-733b2506fae3@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,

> > Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or
> > you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Cheers
> SP

Now that's not a fair question!!!  ;-)

Webby
Dartos - 12 Jun 2008 21:31 GMT
 Im addicted to a
> plastic piece. I get withdrawals.

I'm certainly not laughing at your situation, but I can't help
hearing my wife say almost the same thing:  "You got me addicted
to this thing".

I remind her that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI
or not.  If she feels better wearing it, then she might want
to continue.  Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she
is dependent upon the NTI to prevent pain.

If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up),
it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall.

D
StovePipe - 22 Jun 2008 07:12 GMT
Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....

<the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....>

Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus,  all-a other
regs,  _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_:

StovePipe, here, puttin' in his annual appearance... Actually, I'm
planning to get a TeraNews account and hopefully re-use the ol' iBook
to get back onto here, just like inna old days... IIRC, registry for a
TeraNews basic account is about 4 dollars US fas a one-time payment.

> I remind her (your wife) that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI
> or not.  If she feels better wearing it, then she might want
> to continue.  Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she
> is dependent upon the NTI to *******prevent pain.********

Asterisks my own, to highlight a point: If _I_ place an NTI in a
patient's mouth by the chairside cold cure method, I damned well
better have a patient with SYMPOTMS. I've learned that if I place 'em
to PREVENT further damage to worn-cracked-unbalanced (but
asymptomatic) dentitition, they will put 'em in the top drawer after
two weeks.... All sorts o' reasons: looks like hell (all yellowed and
stained), doesn't let 'em close their mouths as they try to sleep...
too big in the front of the mouth.... they're _too old_ to adapt to
new habits....

Basically, I'm not _Charismatic_ enough to convince 'em to tough out
the first month, 'till they get used to 'em.

Jim Boyd touches on this in one of his lectures (interview by David
Doddell) in mp3 format that is on the Keller Labs site. Y'all can hear
that here:

http://www.kellerlab.com/AudioFiles1.shtml

...although most-a youse already have this lecture on one-a Tim's CD's

Basically, he says that if they don't have symptoms, they maybe won't
appreciate what the NTI will do for 'em, where as if there _are_
experiencing symptoms, and therefore thy're feeling relief by wearing
their NTIs, they're much more willing to say _So What???_ when/if they
experience jaw seating/occlusal discrepancies, dry mouth, etc...

'S'at because I can't seem to get 'em as well adjusted and  polished
as, for example, those upper/lower devices that Dartos placed on one
of the patients that dropped in to the site that Tim put up a couple-a
years back?

...... Prolly......    <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and
eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....>

I'm getting slightly better acceptance using the Keller Labs NTI
product, especially on those cases where a Standard Long (I usually
use that, as the Short seems to hurt the upper centrals) or even a
Reduced Vertical DE won't fit unless I destroy either the labial or
lingual wall. Most-a these cases also need a lower or upper slider on
the opposite dental arch. I believe that _jerm_ should have a slider
instead of wearing his nighttime device during day time hours... but
that's for Jim Boyd to say.

... but for asymptomatic patients, 'specially those who have abandoned
their NTIs, I'm using the Eclipse, by Dentsply.

> If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up),
> it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall.
>
> D

Hey Dartos: Whyn't you make a couple-a devices in advance? That's what
_I_ did for one young lady I have who has gone through FOUR of them
inside a year.... Y'all heard right: FOUR... QUATRE...
QUATRO....VIERMALIG.... All placed chair-side-ally on the lower arch.
If she breaks it again, I'll let Keller try to make a stronger device,
if they can. (Breaks lengthwise, as if you intentionally pulled the
labial and lingual plates apart with some Tyranna-saurus Rex jaws....)

.... come to think of it, she _does_ have a dog.... 'wonder if doggeys
go for NTIs like they do dentures...?....

But, I digress....

Duz anybody think that maybe _jerm_ has a bit of the Eagle Syndrome
(calcification of the stylo-clavicular ligaments) operating here? That
might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise
after a certain neck or head movement...

....just a thought....

To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to
surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have
you tried _drawing_ or _painting_ your pain? That might be
theraputic...

Also for Webby:    Sheesh; Y'all have almost enough material here to
do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a
collaborative effort with _jerm_...

Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
Cheers   ;-)
SP
Tim Dixon - 22 Jun 2008 15:02 GMT
Stove my friend, long time no see(see?)...  Hope all is well and good...
whats shakin' in your orchard?

TD

> Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....
>
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> Cheers   ;-)
> SP
jerm - 22 Jun 2008 21:47 GMT
> Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....
>
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> Cheers   ;-)
> SP

I actually managed to get in the water yesterday and was oblivious to
my jaw, was great.
Seems like the  NTI really helps, but i pull the thing out, and an
hour or so later I end up with
cramp on the one side that used to pop alot(a pinching pain), while
the other side might contract  as well, sort
of a tug of war-so far about a little over a month  into this that
fact has remained constant, while my other symptoms
such as the back of neck headache, has improved some.

Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
myself.
Steven Fawks - 23 Jun 2008 03:00 GMT
Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!

Steve

> Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
> office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
> finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
> myself.
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 03:46 GMT
You can say that again.  And again.

Webby

> Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
> > myself.
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 04:47 GMT
> Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!
>
> Steve

Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody
cut my jaw joints.
Is the MRI only something to justify surgery?  The one side hurts and
pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does
that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider
surgery anyways? Just more information
to  scare me to death?

> > Would an MRI be helpful for my case?  I was informed by a doctors
> > office that an MRI of my Tmjs was
> > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
> > myself.
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 04:57 GMT
In article
<2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa4435a@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,

> > Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to
> > > myself.

jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't
mean I should or I shouldn't.  But the one thing I will say to you is
this:  if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints
based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions.

Webby
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT
> In article
> <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Webby

Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you
think its best I dont know I understand.  Is there any good that could
come
from me getting the imaging?
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 05:24 GMT
> > In article
> > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> come
> from me getting the imaging?

I think the neurologist that ordered it was convinced that I was a
hypochondriac migranieur that
was imagining the TMJ problems. I think the term he used on my medical
records was "conversion disorder".
I watched this guys dvd he gives to his new patient, and his opinion
is that TMJ problems are a pitfall for migraine
diagnosis-needless to say I got my records and moved on. So, im just
wondering if I should even bother with the MRI.
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 05:47 GMT
In article
<7dd16d70-d360-487f-a25f-aaf800447b86@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,

> > > In article
> > > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> diagnosis-needless to say I got my records and moved on. So, im just
> wondering if I should even bother with the MRI.

I would ask Dr. Boyd to comment upon this.  He knows your condition;
he's treating you.  You have found reason to have confidence in him.  
The one thing I would like to say is this:  don't have an MRI or any
other kind of a scan or study done that will be interpreted by someone
you do not have confidence in.  There is just no reason to do that to
yourself.  

Don't rush into studies ordered by any doctor who you intend to leave or
doubt.  There is no emergency here even though it may seem that way to
you.  You have time to be cautious.  And being cautious is the one thing
that should be number one on your list of how to go forward at this
point.

Hang in or just hang ten.  ;-)

Webby
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 06:27 GMT
> In article
> <7dd16d70-d360-487f-a25f-aaf800447...@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> Webby

Thanks Webby,
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 05:35 GMT
In article
<0e03f166-4c7b-4281-8c78-091a6b2ebcdf@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> come
> from me getting the imaging?

It isn't a matter of the imaging being a problem.  The interpretation of
the study is the only thing that matters to you, the patient.  

If the study is free ... let's just think for a moment about finances.  
If the study and surgery were free ... is that all a person should
consider before agreeing to a study and a surgery?  What we know about
MRIs is that they are safe.  There isn't any radiation exposure.  But
... the interpretation ... yes ... hmmm.  Surgeons operate on patients
not radiologists.  But there will be a radiology report sent to the  
doctor ordering the study.  Then the doctors will decide what to make of
the findings.  

jerm, in a keyboarding world, I am trying to tie my fingers up rather
than keyboard (bite my tongue rather than speak).  I understand the
vulnerability of the patient; in this case, we're thinking about you.  

Just for the sake of information, I was amongst the first TMJ-MRI
patients studied.  Back then, the machines overheated before the studies
could be completed; we're talking hours.  Now, it doesn't take long to
complete the MRI and obviously, the imaging is better and the
interpretations are based upon two decades *plus* of data.

I would not say to you or anyone else that you should not have the study
done.  Let's face it; there might be some valuable information gleaned
from it.  

Let's see what some of the others have to contribute to this question of
yours.  And no matter what else ... get yourself into the pool or the
ocean .. *SWIM* ... and make it a part of your daily rituals as much as
you can.  I believe it is the best thing you've got going for yourself.  
If I were nearby, I'd stand on the deck and bark at you!  So....

Webby (forgive typos.  posting quickly because of my connection troubles)
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 05:39 GMT
> In article
> <0e03f166-4c7b-4281-8c78-091a6b2eb...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> Webby (forgive typos.  posting quickly because of my connection troubles)

Will do Webby. Thanks for the thoughtful insight. What
typos?.........:-)
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT
> In article
> <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Webby

Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you
think its best I dont know I understand.  Is there any good that could
come
from me getting the imaging?
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 05:22 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> In article
> <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa4435a@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Webby

P.S.  I am not giving "medical advice".  I'm just giving you friendly
advice.  There isn't any sort of emergency surgery to be done upon your
jaw joints that *would not need additional studies and carefully thought
out options* to be offered to you.

Keep up the swimming; find a pool in addition to the ocean.  It's good
for you. (I was a competitive rough-water swimmer at age 11 (just turned
eleven).... and I lied about my age when an eleven-year-old could do
such a thing. I was supposed to be 12 yrs old to swim the event.  I
secretly swam around "the pier" before morning pool workouts almost
every morning for more than two months with lifeguards paddling with us
at about 6 in the morning ...  trust me when I tell you that I know the
value of swimming.)

Stroke and breathe, jerm.  Trust me.

Webby

Webby
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 05:35 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Webby

Hey Webby, do you think the bouncing around taking waves on the head
is something I should worry about when
surfing. I was longboarding yesterday and didnt notice any problems,
but it was pretty mellow out.
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 05:39 GMT
In article
<b0f4eb58-e9e8-4116-bb52-ae1c3c75c8fd@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> surfing. I was longboarding yesterday and didnt notice any problems,
> but it was pretty mellow out.

I don't think you should worry about it, jerm.  Just get out there and
enjoy your life.  (I'll get to your other post in a second as long as my
connection holds up.)

Webby
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 04:16 GMT
In article
<7ff54112-06fd-49b2-ba8b-a9173f9f09b2@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> I actually managed to get in the water yesterday and was oblivious to
> my jaw, was great.

Wonderful!!!  

Webby
Steven Fawks - 23 Jun 2008 02:59 GMT
Sup pipe?

;-)
Steve

> Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
> Cheers   ;-)
> SP
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 03:49 GMT
Oh my gosh!!!!!  And I was thinking about *you* just about 5 days ago...
thinking "where is Stovie??" .... he should be back by now!! And here
you are!!

(I'm having lots of trouble getting usenet via NewsWatcher.  I guess
it's the program.  Anyway, I'm rushing like crazy just to get a few
posts out before it won't work again!  '

So Stovie, send me an email!!! Hope your family is well and all that
stuff.  

Webby (who is so glad to see you back around)

In article
<fdd78075-e07a-485c-b701-aa54f4e7eff5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

> Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....
>
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
> Cheers   ;-)
> SP
The Webby - 23 Jun 2008 03:56 GMT
In article
<fdd78075-e07a-485c-b701-aa54f4e7eff5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,

> Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
> might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise
> after a certain neck or head movement...

Swimming can be both therapeutic and diagnostic.

> ....just a thought....

Me too.

> To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to
> surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a
> collaborative effort with _jerm_...

Hahaha.... you've got a point there!

Webby

> Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN
> Cheers   ;-)
> SP
Newbie@bix.nex - 23 Jun 2008 04:46 GMT
>Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post....
>
><the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....>
>
>Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus,  all-a other
>regs,  _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_:

>...... Prolly......    <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and
>eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....>

Hiya Pipey ! Good to know your diet hasn't changed much !

Don't forget to wash that down with some brake fluid.
jerm - 23 Jun 2008 06:18 GMT
On Jun 22, 8:46 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:12:28 -0700 (PDT), StovePipe
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Don't forget to wash that down with some brake fluid.

prions_, _virus_, and _jerm  <---------(:
Newbie@bix.nex - 07 Jun 2008 01:11 GMT
>> but  i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the
>> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>D

JimB = Jedi Master ?

Yes !
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:42 GMT
> it seems like im sleeping alot better
> with the NTI for sure as well. im dreaming alot more undisturbed, as
> before my sleep was completely fragmented

That was my experience on wearing an NTI
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:40 GMT
Day time NTI

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> And the little boy blurts out,  "The King is naked!"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really
> worried about that.
Newbie@bix.nex - 31 May 2008 18:57 GMT
>>                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
>> speak.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
><VBG>
>D

Ohh, ohh, ohh, <with hand up>

Get a Kubota !
jerm - 31 May 2008 21:17 GMT
On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:

> >>                 not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we
> >> speak.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Get a Kubota !

   im guessing thats a brand of tractor!!
Newbie@bix.nex - 01 Jun 2008 07:16 GMT
>On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>    im guessing thats a brand of tractor!!

Yep, and a good one at that.
Steven Fawks - 01 Jun 2008 14:23 GMT
Though it isn't very fancy, I'd have to say that my 1961 Ford
is a good tractor since it still starts easy and gets the job
done.  It's never even been converted to 12V.

Steve

>>>Get a Kubota !
>>
>>   im guessing thats a brand of tractor!!
>
> Yep, and a good one at that.
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:44 GMT
Beautiful shade of orange, too !!!

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>    im guessing thats a brand of tractor!!
Newbie@bix.nex - 18 May 2008 06:24 GMT
Well said and bloody well right !

Right as Rain, Sound as the Pound, Bob's your Uncle.

>Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the
>"experts" did way more harm than good!
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>> neck,head pain, but
>> the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse.
Steven Fawks - 18 May 2008 14:38 GMT
> Well said and bloody well right !
>
> Right as Rain, Sound as the Pound, Bob's your Uncle.

I also have to give credit where credit is due.  AC was also
instrumental to me giving the NTI a try.  I heard of them,
looked at the website, and thought, "what can that little
piece of plastic do?  if that's all there was to treating
TMJ and clenching, someone would have thought of it before
now."

This is everyones initial reaction and is quite normal.  It's
also normal to expect the highest educated, most specialized
practitioners to have the best treatment for a condition.
Well, sometimes your better off going to a gp out in the
boonies <G>.

Took me almost a year to actually make one.  My receptionist
was having TMJ troubles, had consulted her physician (go figure!),
and had been referred to an oral surgeon (OMG!).  I said,
"That might be a dangerous road to travel.  Why don't you try
one of these new little bite guards before you do anything
major?"  My first NTI was a roaring success!

The rest is history.  I've made hundreds of the things in the
last 8 years or so.

JME,
Steve
Amatus Cremona - 18 May 2008 14:49 GMT
Jim Boyd was still working over here in the Great Lakes Region when he got
me started on making NTI's.  About ten years ago.......  I was skeptical and
went back and forth with Jim and Hans on this forum and private email.
Finally Jim sent me a sample to try.  Fitted it on my RDA.  She loved it and
still has it.  Made a couple more,,,,,, same results.  I have never looked
back since.  The practice "Up North" is now converting to NTI's.  Go figure.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> Well said and bloody well right !
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> JME,
> Steve
jerm - 18 May 2008 22:23 GMT
> Jim Boyd was still working over here in the Great Lakes Region when he got
> me started on making NTI's.  About ten years ago.......  I was skeptical and
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> > JME,
> > Steve

Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the
disk. i keep hearing how they will make
someone with damage even worse?
Dartos - 19 May 2008 15:49 GMT
> Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the
> disk. i keep hearing how they will make
> someone with damage even worse?

I have only treated one case with an NTI that was obviously
a displaced/damaged disc.  This patient went from having a
relative normal bite, to only touching on the right posteriors.

She only came to me after everyone else had given up, and
they wanted to do surgery.

After extracting some wisdom teeth, a year or two with the
NTI, and some occlusal adjustments, she is almost back to normal.

Is this a better result than just surgery in the first place?
I think so.  Mainly because this 'injury' was not from a fall
or car accident.  What ever caused the 'injury' was still likely
to be in play during and after the surgery.  How would healing
progress with this additional trauma?

Most patients and many dentists just do not understand the severe
problems that arise from parafunctional activities (clenching/bruxism).
Once the light bulb comes on, and you see the NTI in action, it
all comes together.

Dentist study 'occlusion' (how the teeth fit together and the jaw
relations).  Jim made the discovery that it isn't the 'occlusion'
but the 'occluding' (the force, frequency, and intensity that the
teeth are in contact) that matters most.

IMO, the longer after an injury that you are still clenching
uncontrollably, the more likely that permanent damage has/will
occur.

D
Tim Dixon - 31 May 2008 15:06 GMT
I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you
don't mind answering?

> Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the
> disk. i keep hearing how they will make
> someone with damage even worse?
jerm - 31 May 2008 18:41 GMT
> I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you
> don't mind answering?
id rather not say , as im not sure how cool that is, but his price has
been very very reasonable considering the time
he has spent with me doing adjustments when i was really not making
any progress before. he even had made me a second upper appliance for
free, which is something i doubt any would do. And then he also
returned alot of my ,im sure , annoying  emails on his own time.
> > Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the
> > disk. i keep hearing how they will make
> > someone with damage even worse?
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jun 2008 13:44 GMT
That sounds like our friend Jim.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you
>> don't mind answering?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> > disk. i keep hearing how they will make
>> > someone with damage even worse?
Steven Fawks - 17 May 2008 05:54 GMT
Bull sh**!

Steve

> ive also been told that because i have a joint that is popping and
> grating every few days, that i have some joint damage
> that could be made worse by using an NTI.
 
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