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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / June 2008NTI failure continued
I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? Nobody said getting control of extreme clenching was a piece of cake. Plus, just because a neurologist prescribed an NTI, all NTI's are not alike and you may need to experiment a little on vertical opening, slide bars, etc. The fact that the NTI changed your symptoms is actually a good indication that you are on the right track with the clenching being a large part of your problem. I don't think I've ever seen a clencher that could not be helped with an NTI. I have seen a few patients who wouldn't let it happen. If you are serious about dealing with your problem, give us a basic geographical location and we might have a name in mind for a referral. ok look, i was a clencher in the first place then dislocated,tore, injured, whatever my tmj. JIM BOYD made me two devices not soon after. i wore it for almost three weeks, even though i would wake up violently clenched down much harder than i could imagine, and then deal with piercing pain in my jaw joints as they would relax, and then the pain in both sides of my face was unbelievable. i dont know if i was injured too soon to have the thing or what, but it caused me incredible pain. after i stopped wearing the thing, the nightmare earface pain headache that leveled me stayed for a couple weeks. now almost a year later, im still dealing with popping,grating, clenching and neck headaches and eyepain,face tightness and spasms. nothing else is working, and im tempted to pop it in again, but i am scared of that pain coming back. The professors at UCLA also have nothing but bad things to say about the NTI, like it can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my pain, neurologists,dentist whatever. > I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI > in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > can cause major injuries or whatever. I dont know , nobody believes my > pain, neurologists,dentist whatever. ive also been told that because i have a joint that is popping and grating every few days, that i have some joint damage that could be made worse by using an NTI. Also, ive been informed that the NTI will help quickly, but after three weeks the pain will return. It just seems like all the muscles in the back of my head and neck, as well as my jaw have been in spasm for months, but nobody has given me any solution for this, except for buckets of pills that just make me tired. almost a year of this nightmare has been going on, and im afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do? > > I didn't read everything in detail, but if you never left the NTI > > in for even one whole night, how could you deem it a failure? [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > afraid im either making things worse by doing nothing, or worse by > wearing something like the NTI. what the heck do i do? btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice. But somehow you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked out. Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble. Steve > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > > That would make Dr. Boyd the obvious choice. But somehow > you didn't stay with him long enough to get things worked > out. > whoa man, easy on the bs im just stating my experience and what ive been told, which is probably bs. i think personallly my jaw had been injured too soon to wear the thing. question is what the heck do i do now?..........when i wasnt responding positively Dr. boyd decided not to return my emails anymore, so i dont know what im supposed to do. > Your dependence upon the 'experts' who are against the NTI > theories are likely to blame for much of your trouble. > > Steve > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. > > > btw, im in huntington beach,ca orange county > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even > got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my neck,head pain, but the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the "experts" did way more harm than good! Like I said earlier, NTI dentists get so used to listening for a few minutes, making an NTI, and a week later things are much better, that a lot of diagnostic testing is usually not worth the effort or expense. Get control of the clenching monster and patients get better. Pretty plain and simple. Once in a while, things do not respond positively for the first NTI design. If the patient disappears, does not report the problems, and help work towards a solution, there is nothing that can be done. Especially if they don't trust the possibility that a simple piece of plastic can help them more than serveral 'experts' with white coats. I've had patients with a class II (overbite) who needed a maxillary NTI with a shelf cut into it to reduce the total opening with the NTI in place. I've had patients with very worn dentition that needed maxillary and mandibular NTIs that opened the bite 4-6 mm. I've had a few patients return and say, "I can't wear that thing" (which is total BS). I've had a few with such a messed up arrangement of teeth that I really couldn't figure out how to construct a decent NTI. I can't really tell you much more from here. A good NTI dentist is where I would go and work with them to find the best design for you. Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are more effective, safer treatments available. JMO, Steve >>do i need to get imaging at this point ??.....seems like i never even >>got an exam before the NTI. He just popped one in. > > well, i tried wearing it last night, and it did help the back of my > neck,head pain, but > the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. > Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the > "experts" did way more harm than good! [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are > more effective, safer treatments available. thanks for the reply steve, i might have to give it another go, especially since the white coats dont seem to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing for the spasms. > JMO, > Steve > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > neck,head pain, but > > the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. >> Difficult cases don't always resolve every symptom, and may not >> feel great in a week or two. That doesn't mean that there are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> Steve If you are within reasonable driving distance from Jim Boyd, DDS (may have missed the part where you were being treated by him) If so, Jim is the inventor of the NTI and he is your best bet for treatment of your symptoms. Amatus told me when he made an NTI for me that I wouldn't make another of the "old school" devices. <BTW none of which work, and aren't worth a tinkers' damn> Didn't believe him, but he spoke the truth. Switched all of my patients to the NTI that were wearing appliances at "no cost", and never looked back. With the correct construction(s) and sometimes different combinations of NTI devices the solution will be found. A custom device may even be indicated. As Fawks states, it's usually shooting fish in a barrel, the rare/difficult case may require a little more time and trials for a sucessful result. BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not the bullet that gets them. > BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not > the bullet that gets them. If we ever get a chance to share some brew, be sure to ask me about the "rifle shot down the well" story. Vaughn >> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not >> the bullet that gets them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Vaughn Looking forward to it ! > BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not > the bullet that gets them. Nothing like beer and explosives on the river. <VBG> Steve >> BTW <shooting fish in a barrel> it's the concussion, not >> the bullet that gets them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] ><VBG> >Steve And... Firearms ! I thought this was worth re-posting > especially since the white coats dont seem > to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing > for the spasms. > I thought this was worth re-posting > >>especially since the white coats dont seem >>to believe what im going thru, and their treatment has done nothing >>for the spasms. Very true. Probably whipping out the muscle relaxants and antidepressants, labeling the guy as a drug seeker, and wondering where he can be referred to get him out of their hair. D > > I thought this was worth re-posting > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > D oh yeah, ive beeen diagnosed with everything from transformed migraine to major depression, and prescribed a suitcase full of different drugs(none of which do anything other than put me to sleep at night)such as elavil,pamelor,neurontin,baclofen, and the list goes on and on. all the while my jaw is cracking and all the muscles in my head and neck are contracting. i dont want to get to excited, but ive worn the nti for the last few nights and my neck stiffness has gotten alot better. my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to be getting better too. Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see what happens over the next few weeks... :-) D >>>I thought this was worth re-posting >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to > be getting better too. > Not saying that you're out of the woods, but we'll see > what happens over the next few weeks... [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > my jaw still hurts, but the weird back of neck headache pain seems to > > be getting better too. My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point. > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the > open bite huh. Although, if it gets me out of pain im willing to make > that sacrifice. in fact, id probably cut my own arm off at this point. Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues. Usually, a little juditious adjustment at the dental office gets things evened out. It also is not uncommon to awake and notice your teeth don't feel like they are biting normally, but have things straighten out after breakfast. What kind of injury did you have? Was your jaw broken? I forgot. D > > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > D hard to say, i opened opened my mouth wide with my mandible to the side and something popped, after that i started clenching like crazy. > > > My bite is already changing!, is that a bad thing?.......my molars are > > > touching in different places......im probably going to end up with the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > clenching like crazy. also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated? >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing >>>the stress and subsequent inflamation in the tissues. > also , is that where i really want the condyles-seated? Yes. You want the stress off of the joint, muscles, tendons, and ligaments. This lets the TMJ settle where it 'feels good', not where the teeth and occlusion are telling it where it 'has to go'. Steve > >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the > >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the total accuracy of your statements or condition. Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable for your needs. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some complication that would need to be addressed. I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will improve and no major complications will arise. This would probably have been addressed in a more appropriate manner had you just put your trust in Dr. Boyd and stayed with him until you were better, but I understand that takes quite a leap of faith when you have these other 'experts' telling you a totally different story. Best wishes, Steve >>>>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the >>>>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. > I reiterate that I haven't seen you in person and I don't know the > total accuracy of your statements or condition. > > Since you say Jim Boyd made your NTI, I am assuming it is reasonable > for your needs. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be some > complication that would need to be addressed. What sort of complication could arise? i know that this particular NTI as well as another was made, and at the time they both caused me pain and i wasnt able to keep them in all night. but now, the same device is comfortable and is definetely helping things. > I hope that by regular wear of the NTI, that your symptoms will > improve and no major complications will arise. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. > > >>>Your teeth are not moving, but the NTI is allowing the heads of the > > >>>condyles to seat into the fossa. This is because the NTI is reducing [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > feels good, thats what im talking about. i cant wait. So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? Like I have said, it isn't possible to make absolute statements about any individual condition over the internet. That said, wearing an NTI takes the occlusion out of the game and lets the condyles seat in a natural position independent of the dentition. This can lead to an apparent change in the 'bite', when all it really does is allow the TMJ to settle into a normal position for itself. Harmony between the occlusion and the TMJ is a nice thing to have, but it isn't the be-all, end-all. Hardly anyone has their teeth in perfect alignment while the TMJ's are also in a perfect location. The intensity, duration, and frequency of clenching exacerbates any misalignments by placing additional stresses on the teeth and other structures. You are *likely* to just now be finding out how far off your occlusion is relating to your TMJ's. If things start to feel better and you can live with the descrepency, fine. Otherwise, you may need ortho or some other type of occlusal reconstruction to finish the deal. JME, Steve > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve So the fact that things are moving ,is that a good indicator that im headed for pain control? > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime. IMO, yes. That way he won't be starting from scratch again. He will instead be able to see what condition you are in after his first NTI attempt and can make changes if they are indicated. JMO, Steve > i made a new appointment with Dr.Boyd in two weeks, im just wondering > if im doing the right thing by wearing it now in the meantime. > > So, is it safe to say, that if i didnt have a problem that NTI was > > helping, my bite wouldnt be shifting around this fast? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can cause more damage or worsen the condition, and they are against treatment that causes changes to the bite( which is what im going through) are these guys incorrect? It just seems like im diving into this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my pain. I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems". The NTI is not a repositioning splint in the traditional sense. THe NTI will *allow* the joints to relax and move slightly, but it is not designed to create repositioning like the devices that they are describing. The NTI is one very safe treatment method. It reduces stress on all of the structures and provides a decrease in inflamation and pain. Make a list of questions to ask Dr. Boyd when you visit him and relax in the meantime. Steve > ive been reading this information this website called tmj.org that > states that repositioning splints(which is what the NTI is right?) can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my > pain. > I doubt that these people know much of anything about the NTI, except > to say, "We are the only people who understand TMJ problems". [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > this area of permanent changes, and i dont want to end up worsening my > > pain. thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and misunderstood, that its hard to relax. thanks for the replies. And the NTI is not a "cure". It is a means of controlling the crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up. It won't 'fix' you, but it will keep you from hurting yourself. But don't make things more complicated than they need to be. Many of the 'experts' have learned things that are not really true. Many have found there is money to be made by treating patients like you, and they are happy to take as much of it as you (and your insurance) will give them. Most of my patients who need an NTI are 'wound a little tight'. Understanding that and dealing with it helps as well. Be cool. Dr. Boyd knows what he is doing and is not out to screw you over (though I'm sure he charges 5X what I do...you do live in CA, right? Hmmm...maybe that's the ticket...forget the million dollar home, come to the midwest, plant a few tomato plants, eat some sweet corn, live a whole lot cheaper, and just chill <g>). If this all works out and Jim gets you feeling good, then you owe me a 30 pack. <VBG> Steve > thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and > misunderstood, that its hard to relax. > > thanks for the replies. > And the NTI is not a "cure". It is a means of controlling the > crazy stress that is a part of some people's neural make up. It [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > <VBG> > Steve not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we speak. > > thanks.....this problem is so aggravating and seemingly complex and > > misunderstood, that its hard to relax. > > > thanks for the replies. > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > speak. As long as your aren't planning to make a living off of it, you'll be fine. You still may need to trade that lexus or bmw for a tractor. <VBG> D > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > <VBG> > D Hate to do this,but it seems like the improvement i thought i was having ,may have been either short lived or i dunno what....but 2 weeks into wearing this thing, im pretty much back at square one. i wasnt popping lately it seemed like, but yesterday just by rotating my head a little pop came out of my jaw, and now the ears are once again ringing and the unbelievably depressing headache in the back of my head/neck is back. this disease seems hopeless. either treatments that dont work, or doctors that dont believe or understand the nature of the pain, or doctors that will say or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this dilemma once again. > > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > or try anything to fleece money out of you. i guess im back in this > dilemma once again. actually i was wondering if you knew of this Dr. Schames, that i believe Dr.Boyd quotes as source on his website. This guy was another dentist who took 400 bucks from me to listen to my jaws with a stethoscope, only to to try to convince me that "i do not have a problem with my tmj", and that i either had a sleep disorder, or i did too many drugs as a youth. nevermind the visible muscle contractions in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured. > > > > not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > > > > speak. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > too many drugs as a youth. nevermind the visible muscle contractions > in face, and popping,cracking, grating of a joint, i know i injured. i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac. > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty > sure of) that there is something anatomically wrong with the side that > pops(such as this internal derangement i keep reading > about)?.......sorry to ramble on like a depressed hypochondriac. First, popping in a TMJ is not a big deal by itself. When you see Dr. Boyd he can demonstrate a popping joint louder than you can generate on your own! Not all treatment for any condition goes perfectly smooth eliminating all symptoms without a set back or two. It is also possible that any given condition cannot ever be made to completely disappear and that the patient is the same as they were 10 years ago. A reduction in the severity and frequency of symptoms may be the best you can achieve. Magic wands are hard to come by. I have only worked with one case of obvious joint changes. It took over a year of NTI use to have things return to a fairly normal condition. For the patient and myself this was a better solution than trying to have a surgeon operate on the joint. However, surgery *might* work for you. Of course, it might not, and the trauma from the treatment could leave you in worse shape than you are now. My recommendation would be to give Dr. Boyd 3-6 months where you are both dedicated to reaching a solution. Listen and follow directions. See what happens over time. D > > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > D yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on his team. > > > i know this is proabably a question for doctor boyd, but what happens > > > if after a few weeks of NTI use and it is determined(like im pretty [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > D the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change? > yeah, regardless of what im feeling right now, im hoping to be back on > his team. > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple > hours, then the joint usually gets sore and seems to put me back at > spasm square one. is this indicative of a true joint change? Probably depends upon who you ask. (and if you're really asking me, I don't have a definite answer) Do you have a small lower NTI that you could wear during the day? Steve > > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve im guessing although not definite, more like probably huh. I have a lower one for the night only, and its pretty big, or maybe just normal. > > the popping i experience is followed my grating and chunky > > sounds, not really painful and my jaw feels looser for a couple [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem? > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem > when examining me, other than my opening being so tight and the > symptoms that i claim and they just blow off. Do these physical exams > even carry any weight in determining if there is a real problem? To me, it says the structures are within normal limits. That's good. However, it doesn't address the nerve and muscle *activity* or the severity there-of. That is where the NTI comes in. A 'tall' NTI may need to be lowered so it doesn't prop your mouth open as wide. If your teeth are badly worn, the opposite could be true. You may benefit from a small lower NTI that you can wear during the day for a few weeks to really break the clenching cycles. Other admonitions that are probably repetitive are: Don't chew gum. Don't keep moving your jaw around to see if it still pops/grates. If you find yourself clenching in the day time, relax those muscles and separate the teeth. Avoid tough, chewy foods for a while. If you sprain an ankle, you don't keep jogging every morning. You ice it down, wrap it, and take it easy. Your TMJ is a traumatized anatomic structure that needs some R&R to get better. JMO, D > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > D Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI is definetely helping > > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > is definetely helping thanks to you to mr. fawks Hello jerm, I was away from my desk while your discussion developed. If I have missed this information, I apologize. You wrote,"...other than my opening being so tight..." Can you be more specific about that? And, how long has all of this been going on? Webby In article <10e554c0-57d6-4b9f-9929-755b1cf6a3b6@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > is definetely helping > Hello jerm, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And, how long has all of this been going on? well it started back in november, i had already been having what is probably transformed migraine, when for whatever reason, i had opened my mouth while my mandible was jutted to the side and heard a pop, like my jaw breaking loose. after that my jaw got sore and tigtht over the next few days. i then started gettting all the clenching and spasms in the next couple weeks. i then saw Dr. Boyd who made me an appliance, but it caused me too much pain in my joints overnight, and seemed to cause a stabbing headache in my jaw. so i stopped wearing the NTI, and from that point on, saw the socalled tmj experts at UCLa, who examined me and couldnt reproduce any local pain, only a very tight opening that they were able to stretch open enough that they only recommended pt and pretty much funneled me to their psyche department. i then saw a couple more dentists including a Dr. Schames who is also from the white memoral tmj clinic i believe, anyways he couldnt see any real problem or tenderness, so he tried to convince me i had apnea that was causing my clenching, even though my joint was starting to pop and make crackling and grating afterwards. so after the last few months of trying to figure out who to believe, meanwhile my jaw is still cracking and everything was in spasm, i decide to give the NTI another go, since none of the bottles of pills neurolgists have giving have accomplished anything, ive been wearing it for 2 weeks now, and it seems to be helping, although my jaw is still feeling very uncomfortable on the side that i know ive injured, and it is making less noise as well. I made another appointment with DrBoydn next week to hopefully continue with this NTI, seeing as how nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for a flat fee of $5000.00 > Webby > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Thanks Alot for this advice Dartos, much appeciated!..........the NTI > > is definetely helping > seeing as how > nothing else has even made one bit of difference, much less has > anybody even believed my pain, with the exception of another "TMJ > Expert" who used a JVA on me, and said he could get me out of pain for > a flat fee of $5000.00 Just highlighting that comment > > whats really strange to me, is that all these guys in white coats > > that ive seen, have all flat out told me they didnt see any problem [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > JMO, > D Interesting discussion/s. Webby And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" ;-) Steve > Interesting discussion/s. > > Webby > And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Webby the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, there seems to be this pain that radiates from just above the tmj that pops into the back of my head near the nape of my neck. it seems to start out small early in the day, and just progresses until ive got a full blown headache. although always coming from that side that pops. like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really worried about that. In article <0d892b8a-efbe-4c76-9f21-e322dea05cae@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really > worried about that. I have known Dr. Boyd since 1996 ... and whether or not his plan works for you, I have every reason to believe in his honor... and furthermore, there isn't anyone in this newsgroup who has been posting here since the early to mid to late 1990's who might comment upon "TMJ and NTI or AGELK" who I would not have reason to respect. Best wishes, (The) Webby > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really > worried about that. I understand that living with pain is upsetting and depressing. I think with the right NTI design or combination, you will get a lot of relief. Doesn't mean you'll never need some ibuprofen, but you shouldn't be suffering every day. Your description makes me think the daytime appliance is what you're missing. If you're waking up feeling decent, the NTI has done it's job. If you pain grows during the day, you need help when the regular NTI is at home on the night stand. Just relay what's you were feeling a few weeks ago, what has improved since you have been wearing the NTI, what symptoms you are left with, and when/how they develop. Steve > > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve well, couple weeks ago my face and neck muscles were alot tighter and in spasm.althought, still pretty tight,alot of my face musculature is relaxing some for sure. it seems like im sleeping alot better with the NTI for sure as well. im dreaming alot more undisturbed, as before my sleep was completely fragmented and my head and neck was completely painful to lay on. the pain im feeling now,seem to be more localized around my tmj and ear. like now, its easy to say that its one sided. i can tell that the headache starts with a twinge around my ear thats referred to my neck movement, like if i shake my head i can feel pain inside, and that pain seems to progress during the day. my jaw was making a pop every few days when opening to eat something, and that hasnt happened since wearing the NTI. However, ive had a couple really mini pops when looking up or rotating my head. im gonna be seeing DrBoyd this week, and i just hope im able to articulate what really needs to be said. > > > the one thing that i am worried isnt going to get better, is the > > > headache part of my symptoms. even though i can chew without pain, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > seeing DrBoyd this week, and i just hope im able to articulate what > really needs to be said. also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that ive been consistently wearing the device. >also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that >ive been consistently wearing the device. Not long enough. Am checking my patients every ~2 wks up to 6 or 8. By then most routine cases have responded favorably. Some take longer. On May 31, 11:24 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > >ive been consistently wearing the device. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Some take longer. thats great to hear! Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. :-) Steve > also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > ive been consistently wearing the device. > Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > also , i was checking the calender, and it has only been 16 days that > > ive been consistently wearing the device. cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. LOL If you drive off a cliff, see if you can borrow someones car that you really don't like or owes you money. ;-) Steve >>Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a > few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. In article <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe253@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, > > Doesn't sound too bad for just a couple of weeks. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cool, i guess some progress is more hopeful than none. i can wait a > few more weeks before driving off the cliff i suppose. Is there some other treatment plan you think is the one you need but you're not getting? Webby > In article > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Webby no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings gonna work. > > In article > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > no, im pretty sure this is my best hope. im just worried that nothings > gonna work. btw, what is thits AGELK thing? > > > In article > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > my bite is moving around quite a bit. > > > > In article > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > my bite is moving around quite a bit. but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the afternoon my masseters start contracting. should i just pop it back in during the day for a while? In article <f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7eeb0@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > In article > > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? When is your appointment? Webby > In article > <f86ab281-e51b-4e26-8582-f12a26f7e...@q27g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Webby this week. [clip] > > When is your appointment? > > > > Webby > > this week. Great then! I hope you'll tell him that you've been sharing your questions/concerns with smd. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > [clip] > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Webby Also, I was thinking that the "Subject: NTI failure continued" may need to be reworded soon! Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-50EEA3.08502102062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Webby i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? Webby In article <f1ddac7d-d45f-4ac2-b034-4d7c0c2a4884@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > i sure hope so!!!.....already not failure, NTI helping well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru > life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. > > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > well, truth is i am still in more pain than i can imagine going thru > > life with. im not so sure im a success story just yet. Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here >> > > Then let's change the subject line! What's your choice? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Can I edit the old subject line?......forum newbie here Of course you can say whatever you want in newsgroups. It's the last great bastion of free speech in the world. And in some parts of the world is punished by death. May freedom and liberty never die ! God bless the men and women who protect our freedom. Never forget, freedom isn't free. All it takes for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing. yes  Signature/ Amatus / >> >> > > > In article [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? > > > > > In article > > > > > <5d11c7e7-5b4d-4da6-8110-53efa06fe...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should > i just pop it back in during the day for a while? Wouldn't hurt until you see Jim and he might make a daytime appliance. D > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > D its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl ever be out of spasm. > > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > its just so frustrating. it doesnt seem like my head and neck willl > ever be out of spasm. btw, im seeing Dr.Boyd this week and was wondering if there was anything specific i may want to be sure to ask him. Thanks In article <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12f31@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > > > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > anything specific i may want > to be sure to ask him. Thanks What's on your list at this point? Advice: make a list of your concerns and take it with you to the appointment. Webby > In article > <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Webby Thanks Webby, and thanks to everybody else on this board for being so helpful. I saw Dr. Boyd today and I and basically im going to use the lower NTI ive got already during the day and as much as possible for the next month and then go back for a recheck. Thank God for that guy, such a cool doctor. In article <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03ad9b@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <45ba7baa-542f-45d0-b504-ae5af1e12...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > recheck. Thank God for > that guy, such a cool doctor. You're very welcome! I put up one more post in response to an older post of yours. Hopefully, you'll see it and give us your thoughts. It sounds as though you and Dr. Boyd have a good plan! Best of luck to you and hopefully you'll keep us posted as to your progress. Webby > In article > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Webby Hey, sorry im back with another question that i didnt get to ask Dr.Boyd. before i had injured my jaw joint with an unnatural sideways opening, i was already dealing with headaches, that i thought were sinus related for a number of years ,that had become just about daily and constant-i was told i had transfomed migraine. After i had the trauma to my jaw, everything went into complete overdrive with spasms and headache and neck pain off the chart,and unable to wear the NTI at first with so much jaw pain.Now, since ive got these two overlapping conditions(or so i think) how would my treatment with the NTI splint be different from somebody with just routine jaw pain? Maybe this is a neurologist type question, i dont know. I guess ive just had so many different opinions from neurologists, in fact i had one tell me that people claiming to have tmj pain were a pitfall for migraine diagnosis. But, i know for a fact that i have real jaw pain popping, spasms, headaches,neck pain,etc., as well as a prior history of headaches before the jaw pain. OK, the questions is more simply, how would the diagnostic function of the NTI be applied to my case?.........sorry i know its a bunch of rambling. these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) > > In article > > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > rambling. > these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) sorry Webby, I looked for the old post, but i didnt have anyluck finding it. > > In article > > <2d4e3932-16f8-415c-a6fc-552caf03a...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > rambling. > these two problems overlapping it seems(or so i think) Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does he do that without problems? > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > he do that without problems? By wearing an NTI every night <G>. You see, Dr. Boyd was a young dentist (recently graduated from USC) who was suffering with migraines and lots of jaw pain. Noone had been able to give him much relief, so he imersed himself in every bit of information available to try and help himself. (Sound familiar?<G>) He experimented with all kinds of bite guards/splints (mainly trying to address the TMJ issues since he didn't know the headaches were in fact related at the beginning). He eventually placed a type of discluding element on the anterior portion of a traditional TMJ splint. Things got better with his TMJ, and after some time, and he realized he wasn't grabbing a handful of ibuprofen for his headaches each morning either. This wasn't just 'neat', it was a huge discovery. He did not regress, and he wondered if it would work on others. The connection of this multi- tude of symptoms and a solution had been unearthed. After having success with himself, he honed the design of his appliance and began treating other patients for the same problems. Most of them got better. He studied more, talked to neurologists himself (evidently some with more open minds than you have found). He was able to offer the world a simple device with a fairly simple protocol that could offer many suffering patients relief that had previously been a huge, terribly expensive crap shoot. This all led to the connection between clenching/jaw pain/migraine. I believe it to be one of the major medical/dental break-throughs of my lifetime. So to go back to your story, you never had two separate problems that got worse from an injured jaw. You had this clenching issue for years, and it just so happened that it got worse, the structures were further stressed, and that one opening was the 'straw that broke the camel's back'. I'm sure that your neurologist 'friends' are intelligent, well-educated folk. They have (IMO) simply learned too much of the wrong thing. Since they haven't been able to conquer this TMJ/migraine syndrome, there is either a psychological component or some mysterious pathway of pathology that is beyond known treatment. Millions of dollars are being thrown down a rat hole, people are suffering, people are getting worthless/sometimes dangerous treatment, people are taking way too many drugs, all for the want of an NTI. Best wishes, Steve > > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Best wishes, > Steve thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the line if not, surgery? Does that ever even help?, for a clencher even. My jaw popped super loud for the first time since wearing the NTI again, pretty disheartening, as im sure ill be in pain soon. In article <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d3934ac@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [clip] > thanks, i really hope it ends up helping me. What could be down the > line if not, surgery? > Does that ever even help? What surgery do you have in mind? Webby > In article > <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Webby i dont have any planned, im still hoping the NTI is gonna help me out. but i guess im just thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved. > > In article > > <6080d899-fde7-459b-b214-96520d393...@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > but i guess im just > thinking about whats going to happen if i dont get solved. I wonder why, for the last three weeks with the NTI, although i have had headaches and some face pain, the side that pops was silent, and now opening my mouth to eat some eggs i get a loud crack and subsequent grating for a while. a few hours later now, my jaw is starting to get sore, and im sure later the whole spasms and migraine will be in full effect. I also still cannot understand how these three "craniofacial pain experts" could do theyre 400 dollar exams and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all these symptoms. Ignore the sounds. Signature/ Amatus / >> >> > In article [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > and not find anything other than a tight opening, and yet i have all > these symptoms. > > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does > > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Best wishes, > Steve Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that the injury was the result of structures already injured. I actually did something incredibly stupid. I had noticed that as I stretched my mouth open, the "sinus" headache that id been plagued with forever seemed to change. I had been surfing the web and came across some jaw stretching exercises, and i followed the instructions to jut my jaw sideways and open, and when i did came the crack that changed everything. i remember clamping my jaw shut in horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was so fragile. I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just not listening. Guess what the muscles that try and open your mouth are hooked to on the other end. The back of you sinus. They are struggling for hours each day to get your teeth apart and are causing inflamation in that area. Clenching is your problem (at least it is the trigger that is leading to the cascade of other symptoms). I've tried to baby sit you through this affair, but even I have a limited amount of patience. Every comment breeds 2-5 more questions, when you just need to accept where you are and that Dr. Boyd is your best chance of getting better. You don't need to fully understand the whole issue. Let the NTI work, or don't. It's your choice. Steve > Im sure i had been clenching for some time, but im not so sure that > the injury was the result of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > so fragile. > I'm beginning to think you don't want to get better, or are just > not listening. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > > so fragile. sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you met Dr. Boyd. What you need to do now is RELAX. Quit looking for reasons for the NTI to fail. Let it do its job and don't complicate things. Steve > sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. > Yes, and you've been led down the storied path...until you > met Dr. Boyd. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > sorry i dont mean to bother, it just been a long dragged out deal. cool, thanks again, i wont flood the board with my nonsense for a while.......:) Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry. You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all the time. The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back" Signature/ Amatus / >> > Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does >> > he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > so fragile. > Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry. You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all > the time. The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a > normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back" I completely agree. That was the first and last time I try to argue with you guys!......thanks for the input. > -- > / [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > horror-never realizing that my seeming indestructible jaw was > > so fragile. >Nope,,,,,,,,,,, sorry. You had a pre-existing condition from clenching all >the time. The one incident (which should not have caused anything on a >normal person) happened to be the "straw that broke the camel's back" Luv how you break it down to the brass tacks. Couldn't have said it better. Since my re-education, thanks to you, AC, Dartos, my patients have reaped the benefits for several years. Jim, the pioneer, ridiculed as are many who solve a 'mystery' with a seemingly *simple* but brilliant answer, IMO is sure to be in the 'history of dentistry' books. Sure there are practitioners in my area that are charging multiple 10s of Ks, for their own self aggrandizement for questionable treatment. Must tell you, and all of SMD, that there is an increasing movement toward the NTI by the patients. Am getting asked more and more often, by patients of all ages, and to my surprise, more men than ever before, about relieving headaches. If it works in my podunk, maybe it's a movement. Am sure it is. >> Btw, i heard the Dr. Boyd tmj pop today.....what the?......how does >> he do that without problems? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >Best wishes, >Steve There are some points I'd like to add but I need some time to think it through a bit first. Webby > Couldn't have said it better. > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >Best wishes, > >Steve I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any difference to the one person for whom I would be writing. I see no value in preaching to the choir. I'm getting a headache from all this... arghhhhhhh. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-4339EC.18242906062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > There are some points I'd like to add but I need some time to think it > through a bit first. [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > >Best wishes, > > >Steve I wanted to share a few thoughts mainly with jerm because most of the others reading and posting to smd have heard it all before. But I decided not to post because it seems as though jerm is in a difficult situation for reasons that none of us are truly in the position to understand. So it seemed a better idea to let things be and to simply wish jerm the best. (I was concerned that my post seemed a bit rude and it wasn't my intention to be rude to jerm.) Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-DE09DA.09275007062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any > difference to the one person for whom I would be writing. I see no [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Steve > I wanted to share a few thoughts mainly with jerm because most of the > others reading and posting to smd have heard it all before. But I [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > > > >Best wishes, > > > > >Steve No problem Webby, thanks. Im just happy to have gotten some free advice from some knowledgeable people. >I've concluded that there is nothing I might add that would make any >difference to the one person for whom I would be writing. I see no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Webby You worry too much. Are you sleeping well ? On Jun 8, 8:45 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:27:50 -0700, The Webby > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Are you sleeping well ? not too bad lately with NTI and the 50mg of elavil. >On Jun 8, 8:45 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: >> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:27:50 -0700, The Webby [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >not too bad lately with NTI and the 50mg of elavil. That's good to hear. Ibuprofen dosage when used as an anti-inflammatory is 800mg/q6h. 3200mg is the max daily dose. For pain such as muscle or joint ache the dose is 400mg/q4h, Do not exceed 3200mg per day. >> > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the >> > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >anything specific i may want >to be sure to ask him. Thanks How about: " I should cowboy up, and quit being a pansy, right ?" My question to you "jerm" is: "How often do you have insomnia ?" Just tell Jim about your symptoms and experiences with the NTI. He is the inventor and can and will help you. You just sound hyperactive on usenet to me. Can't relax, or sit still eh ? On Jun 6, 5:19 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >> > > but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the > >> > > afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You just sound hyperactive on usenet to me. > Can't relax, or sit still eh ? I am imsomniac, but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a headache and a highspeed internet connection. > I am imsomniac, but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a >headache and a highspeed internet connection. Insomnia will shorten your life significantly. Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone. Have been taking it for almost 5 years. There is no tolerance nor liver function damage. > > I am imsomniac, but really im just unemployed ,and stuck home with a > >headache and a highspeed internet connection. jerm, would you mind sharing your age with us? Webby > Insomnia will shorten your life significantly. > > Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone. > Have been taking it for almost 5 years. > There is no tolerance nor liver function damage. > In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >sure , im 34 > > Insomnia will shorten your life significantly. > > > Get one of your docs to Rx Trazadone. > > Have been taking it for almost 5 years. > > There is no tolerance nor liver function damage. > > In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > Have been taking it for almost 5 years. > > > There is no tolerance nor liver function damage. Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it constantly unless im eating. In article <d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245e09@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > > In article <jlvn44htqq3276e0rl8776s106bjrfe...@4ax.com>, New...@bix.nex > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it > constantly unless im eating. Do you think you might be wearing it more than Dr. Boyd recommended? Webby > In article > <d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Webby well, maybe. I think we discussed that i would be taking it out for periods of times during the day, but i was just a little concerned about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not freaking out or anything though. reading about. In article <53bc9496-6324-4baf-812e-4775b17bd650@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <d7c89451-9468-4e12-b7ab-845b85245...@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > freaking out or anything though. > reading about. Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that? > In article > <53bc9496-6324-4baf-812e-4775b17bd...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that? No, I was just wondering. In article <6a93e4c5-0ec1-4411-9a41-ad28d37133f1@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, [cut a bunch] > > > > > Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it > > > > > constantly unless im eating. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No, I was just wondering. I know that you're getting input from sci.med.dentistry and alt.support.jaw-disorders but I'm wondering where else online you're getting additional information. Do you think it's possible for too much information to become confusing to you? Sometimes less is more and this might be one of those times... do you think? Webby >> > Did Dr. Boyd tell you to worry about that? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Webby Webby, I mean this in the kindest way possible... Lexapro works much better than Elavil. Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind. On Jun 8, 8:10 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: > On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:39:17 -0700, The Webby > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Lexapro works much better than Elavil. > Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind. but lexapro had my jaw going crazy.........trazadone doesnt sound bad though.......the running mind is ridiculous. On Jun 8, 8:10 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: > On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:39:17 -0700, The Webby > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >information to become confusing to you? Sometimes less is more and this > >might be one of those times... do you think? yeah probably. > >Webby > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Lexapro works much better than Elavil. > Trazadone to sleep, turns off that running mind. >was just a little concerned >> > about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No, I was just wondering. Webby, you worry too much. >> > Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? Im pretty much wearing it >> > constantly unless im eating. >> >> Do you think you might be wearing it more than Dr. Boyd recommended? >> >> Webby C'mon Webby, you know better than that. >well, maybe. I think we discussed that i would be taking it out for >periods of times during the day, but i was just a little concerned >about this "supraeruption" deal ive been reading about. Im not >freaking out or anything though. >reading about. jerm stated that he takes out the NTI to eat. Thereby super-eruption is impossible. >Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? A resounding NO ! >Im pretty much wearing it >constantly unless im eating. Excellent. On Jun 8, 8:05 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Excellent. Than im married to the thing. I have no doubt the tension in my neck is improving. >On Jun 8, 8:05 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Than im married to the thing. I have no doubt the tension in my neck >is improving. Good deal, keep up the regiment. Gotta go, At this stage of treatment, I agree. D >>Is it possible to wear the NTI too much? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Excellent. > At this stage of treatment, I agree. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > Excellent. My next appointment with Dr.Boyd was supposed to be at the end of this month, and for whatever reason they were unable to schedule me until July 30. My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy. :-) D >>At this stage of treatment, I agree. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > month, and for whatever reason they > were unable to schedule me until July 30. > My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > month, and for whatever reason they > > were unable to schedule me until July 30. Yeah youre right im sure, but he actually just got back to me ,and basically said if things go well that date is fine. Actually that timing is probably preferable. Jim Boyd is great guy. He is much taller in person than he appears on "Usenet" :-) Signature/ Amatus / >> My guess would be that Dr. Boyd is quite busy. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > basically said if things go well > that date is fine. > Actually that timing is probably preferable. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > / > I think hes reading this stuff, because he knew i was improving before i told him. > Amatus > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > basically said if things go well > > that date is fine. If he is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tell him to log in and say Hi! Signature/ Amatus / >> Actually that timing is probably preferable. >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> > basically said if things go well >> > that date is fine. > If he is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tell him to log in and say Hi! > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >> > basically said if things go well > >> > that date is fine. Ive been noticing that while constantly wearing the appliance my overall head pain is improving, my actual mouth opening seems to smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting looser? Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities? Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading? Or do you go outside for a little exercise of any sort? Do you share mealtime with anyone? In other words, how do you spend a normal day in your life? Webby In article <0ee178b6-57f5-47f1-808b-1964295ba1fc@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > Ive been noticing that while constantly wearing the appliance my > overall head pain is improving, my actual mouth opening seems to > smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting > looser? > Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities? > Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > smaller and tighter. Is that normal, or should things be getting > > looser? Lol.... ......i admit to compulsively checking my email and other internet sites, but for the most part the only constructive thing im doing at this point is limping through a photography program. I dont know if your just curious or psychoanalyze me, however, if the latter is the case i can save you some time and just confess to being clinically depressed at this point, probably with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this freaking jaw and headache. > > Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities? > > Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this > freaking jaw and headache. As far as exercise, im not really getting much. Ive been a surfer for most of my life traveling around tropic destinations, so this dragged illness had put a major damper on things. In article <02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ecd13@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > > Do you talk to anyone during the course of your normal daily activities? > > > Or would you say that you mainly sit in front of your computer reading? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this > > freaking jaw and headache. No.. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you... I *am* trying to gain a bit of insight into certain elements of your life. How we feel can have an impact on how we live, right? And to some extent, if we can modify how we live in ways that brighten our spirits, we might feel better in general! I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this to you. Why are you taking a photography program? That sounds interesting... but you seem less than enthused. > As far as exercise, im not really getting much. Ive been a surfer for > most of my life traveling around > tropic destinations, so this dragged illness had put a major damper on > things. Surfing... so you must be a swimmer. Have you thought about finding some water and swimming regularly? Best to you, Webby > In article > <02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ec...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Best to you, > Webby Hi Webby, I didnt mean to sound like a smartass! Thanks for even being concerned, I appreciate it. I really wanted to do this photography thing, but its just almost impossible to concentrate, and it takes major concentration. Your right about the swimming, i cant surf like this, but I could swim for sure. Its so weird how depressing this deal is. you think your making progress maybe, and then despair sets in, and your right back to square one. ahhhhhh.....oh well. In article <4f0be666-cac7-432a-a19d-7cd6654d8edc@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <02b9507a-02e5-44dc-b93f-98a12d4ec...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > progress maybe, and then despair sets in, and your right back to > square one. ahhhhhh.....oh well. Good enough!! Go catch some water even if you're not up to catching a wave. Webby if the latter is the case i can save you some time and > just confess to being clinically depressed at this point, probably > with a side of generalized anxiety disorder-only because of this > freaking jaw and headache. Seldom is a problem related to just one cause. Did clenching/pain cause the depression? Did depression/drugs worsen the clenching to cause the pain? My money is on the latter, but the important thing is realize that the success of treatment is tied to dealing with all of the issues related to your symptoms. Clenching is a major one, and the NTI is the best thing going for that, but it isn't going to eliminate depression, which may be the root cause for the clenching getting out of hand. You had been living with a clenching problem for years that was below a clinical threshold of causing much pain. Some bumps in the road showed up, and you crossed over to the painful side of the problem. The NTI helps control the clenching, but it will not smooth the road for you to deal with the other issues. Sometimes when you are in the middle of a complicated situation, it is difficult to see the whole picture and develop an effective solution. Webby's advice is excellent. Get out and do something. Sitting around being obsessed with your pain is not going to do you any good. Distracting, recreational, rewarding, and uplifting activities will help you rebound from your present low. Heck, even joining an online dating service would be better than your present computer use. JMO, D > if the latter is the case i can save you some time and > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > JMO, > D I was probably clenching in my sleep for years, most likely it became entrenched as a result of alot of my recreational drug use during the 90's. I can remember many many early mornings forcing myself to sleep while my jaw was going nuts from the party substances. I sobered up about 2 years ago(6 months prior to this problem) and my sleep and mental health definitely took a turn for the worse. I also self medicated with lots of benzos for years until this time, so add that to my other external struggles and im sure it explains alot. Its weird, a few months before i had opened my mouth sideways and dislocated one side, I had had another accident that i can remember preceding the headaches i was waking up with not soon after. while out surfing, another surfer ditched his board and it struck me in the head, perfectly across my temple and ear. I remember that in the next days i noticed i couldnt get comfortable on the couch, and later started waking up with headaches. The depression started to get bad right about this time. About a month later was when i had stretched my jaw and it cracked loose, from that point on everything went crazy with pain, and so did I with depression!...........sorry to bore anybody with this nonsense.......Oh I am on some dating sites!................... The Temporalis muscle is a major elevator involved in clenching. Damage to this area could easily make things worse. (Oh yeah, guess where it's located <G>). Its > weird, a few months before i had opened my mouth sideways and > dislocated one side, I had had another accident that i can remember [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that in the next days i noticed i couldnt get comfortable on the > couch, and later started waking up with headaches. ...Oh I am on some dating sites!................... Then go meet someone and get out of the house! ;-) D I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm. Webby > ...Oh I am on some dating sites!................... > > Then go meet someone and get out of the house! > > ;-) > D > I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ;-) > > D Well, it seems like as long as I keep the splint in i feel pretty decent, but about an hour later after taking it out the cramp on the one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a plastic piece. I get withdrawals. In article <1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd21138433e2@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > I'm hoping that no news is good news today for jerm. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a > plastic piece. I get withdrawals. Hello jerm. On another note, what did you do yesterday? How did you spend your day? Webby > In article > <1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd2113843...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Webby Hi Webb, managed to get through a class, bought stuff, ate mushy food, ate pills, sleep. In article <d119704e-e113-48ff-96e0-7dc1ca492a3b@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <1edeaf39-9994-40ba-b01f-fd2113843...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Hi Webb, managed to get through a class, bought stuff, ate mushy food, > ate pills, sleep. Okay... what's with the "mushy food"? Maybe you're hungry??? Or, not satisfied by the limitations of the foods you're choosing???? Maybe I/we have some ideas for making mealtime more satisfying. So, what did you eat yesterday? Let's see if today can be made more interesting! Webby Better than adding more drugs <G>. D > Well, it seems like as long as I keep the splint in i feel pretty > decent, but about an hour later after taking it out the cramp on the > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a > plastic piece. I get withdrawals. > Better than adding more drugs <G>. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a > > plastic piece. I get withdrawals. I never needed glasses until my arms got too short. Since I needed to be able to see in order to read, I had to get some "readers". The "readers" weren't good enough after a period of time... so I got another prescription with correction near and far. I *need* the prescribed glasses in order to manage my day to day life. Some people have "conditions" that respond to certain prescribed "remedies" for the problems caused by the "conditions". As for the "TMJ" stuff... well, some people need human engineered parts too. I should know. Webby > In article <1213281517_210...@news.newsville.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Webby hey, ive been reading some of your posts and it seems youve really been through it. im sorry about your struggle, i can almost imagine where youve been. In article <7d434aa1-84e6-485b-b854-66854e937560@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > > In article <1213281517_210...@news.newsville.com>, > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > been through it. im sorry about your struggle, i can almost imagine > where youve been. Thank you for your compassion, jerm. Fortunately for you, today it is much more difficult to get caught up in the mess/messes I did which originally began in 1981. As it sometimes goes in life, I was one of those people in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, I have tried my best to make lemonade from all the lemons I never asked for nor deserved. Switching gears, so what'd you have for dinner???? (I might be able to offer a few meal ideas... ) Webby > In article > <7d434aa1-84e6-485b-b854-66854e937...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Webby Hi webby, I had chicken breast, and I just did alot of the work with the knife and fork. I am able to chew without much pain at all. its more like jaw fatigue and discomfort when chewing. At this point im just trying to do everything that im supposed to do in order to give myself a chance at getting better-such as avoiding the chewy foods, which im finding difficult. Im about 6'3 220 and am used to really stuffing myself with food! Im just about at the one month mark with the NTI. > Better than adding more drugs <G>. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > one tmj kicks back in and the headache follows. Im addicted to a > > plastic piece. I get withdrawals. Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during the day? I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for comfort*. I've seen a few people who abused their teeth pretty badly. My WAG from across the net is that some of your meds, and/or your depression are factors in this game beyond 'normal TMJ troubles'. But, I admit to not being an expert in psychology, pharmacology, or neurology. D >>Better than adding more drugs <G>. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during > the day? > I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for > comfort*. I've seen a few people who abused their teeth [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But, I admit to not being an expert in psychology, pharmacology, > or neurology. Hey Dartos, Im sure depression is making things worse for sure. But it seems like the combo of jaw problems, clenching and depression seems to put the experts in neurology and pharmacology in a dilemma. They would like to give me all these meds that help with depression, but unfortunately they all make you clench to some degree. So with my compromised jaw deal and clenching already, i think im just irritating doctors. I actually told the neurologist that works with Dr.Boyd that i was depressed at this point , having been through the ringer for almost a year, and he didnt recommend anything other than the elavil im taking, along with the NTI of course. So, im guessing there alot of factors that can play into this weird disease;whats that called co-morbidity or something? I think ive been reading to much info on the net about disease. Maybe I shouldve stayed in school and studied pathology since im such a freaking hypochondriac. Btw, im pretty amazed that you docs that practice medicine, yet still take an interest in people on the net youve never even seen. > D > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Do you think it will get to the point where im ok without it during > > the day? In article <cfdbc3e8-95fa-4bbd-a5c5-bb3e09e6f224@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > I've never seen anyone who needed long term daytime wear *for > > comfort*. I've seen a few people who abused their teeth [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > medicine, yet still take an interest in people on the net youve never > even seen. jerm, have you tried "talk therapy"? Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-64A8BD.09464213062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <cfdbc3e8-95fa-4bbd-a5c5-bb3e09e6f224@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Webby I think you have things to talk about. Our healthcare society has gone pill-crazy, forgetting that some of what ails us truly depends upon human contact. Any kind of prolonged health problem can create a very isolating lifestyle. I see that sci.med.dentistry is filling a part of your need for human contact; and I'm really happy for you if you're finding that your time around here is well spent. In the other world, the real world where you *live*, you also need to find human contact to remind you that you are alive and that *you have something to give others* just as much as they may be in a position to give to you. People need people. I founded an organization a long time ago called the TMJ Foundation. Its purposes were mainly support and education for people concerned with matters of the TMJ often called "TMJ". One of the most productive elements of the organization was the community service projects. There was just something so healing about and for a group of people who had all sorts of problems (some financially devastated, marriages destroyed, jobless) but who set aside their own suffering in order to helps others who were in need of help. So in a nutshell, what I'm saying is that as hard as life can be for you right now, there are avenues you can take to at least get you to realize that you have a lot to give ... and that helps us to feel more whole. Whether you find an affordable therapist to talk to for a few sessions or not is really only one way to help you *feel* like you can get the world off your shoulders. But if you can find something in your community to do ... I can assure you that you can discover that you can make a difference in someone else's life... if you can make one person's life better in some small way, you have made a difference. Penny for your thoughts, jerm. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [clip] > But if you can find something in your > community to do ... I can assure you that you can discover that you can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Webby Here's an example of a volunteer position that most people might not think about: ~~~~~~~~~~ Description The Blind Center's league plays at The Silver Nugget on Mondays from 11:15 to 1:15. The Silver Nugget donates equiptment and lanes. (The Silver Nugget is located within 3 miles of The Blind Center) This is the perfect opportunity for anyone interested in sharing their love for bowling as we need assistants to help our members while they bowl. You don't have to be a great bowler, just have a good attitude and be encouraging! Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if you're interested please let us know right away! Some knowledge of bowling is a plus but no experience is needed. We will train! ~~~~~~~~~~~ It does sound like fun !! Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Webby Hey Webby whats up, I actually did try therapy and psychologists, but mostly I would leave even more annoyed by looking for answers and receiving nothing but feigned concern, and little in the way of solutions, but i suppose thats not really their job anyways. That volunteer idea is great, thanks! Ive thought of doing that but always just put it off. That really would be infinitely better than wasting away at home. But, today was actually a pretty good day, i managed to forget about my pain for a few hours- first time in a year easily. I think the NTI is working, just slowly and really gradually, so its difficult to gauge my progress. > > In article > > <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > first time in a year easily. I think the NTI is working, just slowly > and really gradually, so its difficult to gauge my progress. I actually chomped through a famous star with cheese without a pop or a twinge. My jaw was a little tired afterwards. My over all pain level is definitely improving. > > > In article > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-6A3570.11593613062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > a twinge. My jaw was a little tired afterwards. My over all pain level > is definitely improving. Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating the TMD with the NTI. I would like to get it handled before it falls out, but im worried about making my headache situation worse. thanks > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating > the TMD with the NTI. I would like to get it handled before it falls > out, but im worried about making my headache situation worse. thanks One cavity shoudn't be too much of an ordeal now that things are improving. If it is on the side of the tooth, you may not have to open extremely wide to have access. Mention your recent jaw trouble and take a short break or two during the process. JMO, Steve > > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been > > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > JMO, > Steve good deal, i might wait until im even better just for good measure. I cant believe im actually feeling better!.......not great, but definitely much better. > > > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been > > > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > cant believe im actually feeling better!.......not great, but > definitely much better. false alarm, I seem to be regressing right back to square one. > > > > Ive got a tooth that looks like its decaying through the side(its been > > > > filled already), and I wondered what i should do now that im treating [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > false alarm, I seem to be regressing right back to square one. i really thought things were going in the right direction. but my jaw seems to be getting tighter and more painful. once again, i am waking up with a sore neck, and today i had a full blown migraine. a full blown migraine Again I say: No journey is made without a set back or two. The question is have you been doing BETTER over the last few weeks than you were before really wearing the NTI? If you have been better, things might still improve. It isn't a "cure". It is a treatment. A few days with comfort and then one day with pain is not a sign to give up! You seem to look at any recurence of discomfort as a total failure. That's not a reasonable approach. Steve > i really thought things were going in the right direction. but my jaw > seems to be getting tighter and more painful. once again, i am waking > up with a sore neck, and today i had a full blown migraine. > a full blown migraine > Again I say: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > up with a sore neck, and today i had a full blown migraine. > > a full blown migraine i know im sorry, im just having a hard time being objective about my progress. looking back, its difficult to say how much better i am, while still having pain on a daily basis. > > Again I say: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > how much > better i am, while still having pain on a daily basis. i think its helped to some degree, but i still at this point daily cant even sit through a one hour class and pay attention through the cramp in my jaw. Im not meaning to be a nuisance, but if you think what im dealing with at the one month mark is acceptable, i will keep going with the splint and keep my mouth shut from now. > > > Again I say: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > one month mark is acceptable, i will keep going with the splint and > keep my mouth shut from now. my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. > my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. Can you wear the NTI during class (or at least on the commute)? D > > my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. > > Can you wear the NTI during class (or at least on the commute)? > > D it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. In article <2e62b84a-b727-4f9d-a0e4-c21791754358@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > > my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. I was wondering whether you've gone swimming yet. The reason I think it would be good for you is as follows: 1. Swimming requires certain mouth positions for "good breathing technique". Exhaling while your face in in the water requires your teeth to be apart. Opening your mouth to breathe, also requires only a certain amount of opening in order to get your head back in the water for proper stroke/breathing continuity. 2. You can start with a limited time or lap goal and add to it. 3. You can focus on what swimmers focus on while swimming ... usually it's almost meditational. This is just an idea because it would provide you with some time to do something that really makes it difficult to clench. I have spent plenty of time in the water and this is why I suggest this, jerm. What do you have to lose by getting in a pool and doing some laps? Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-B432C6.10082517062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <2e62b84a-b727-4f9d-a0e4-c21791754358@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Webby Also, jerm, if you can find a pool easily but it's too short for serious lap swimming, bobbing is an excellent alternative or something you can use during your sets of laps too. "Bobbing" also will not allow you to clench! And it will also give you time to just sort of space out and relax too. A few words of advice from someone who swam and coached and taught enough to have some confidence in the advice being useful if used! :-) Webby Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you were sitting in my office. Regression in an hour just does not a usual description for patients I have dealt with. Sorry for not having a better answer, D >>>my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. > Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into > a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > D thats alright, thing is its just the side that i injured that gets the cramping pain not soon after removing it. > >>>my jaw was popping every couple days, only 3 times in the last month. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. > On Jun 17, 11:23 am, Dartos <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote:> Makes me think that there is "something" that has turned you into > > a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental > > condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you > > were sitting in my office. Maybe I am mentally ill. But, it sure seems like the only people with that opinion of me, are the doctors who have been unable to help me. > > Regression in an hour just does not a usual description for > > patients I have dealt with. > > > Sorry for not having a better answer, > > > D > thats alright, thing is its just the side that i injured that gets > the cramping pain not soon [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of the joint you have all the trouble with? If so, what was done and when? Webby In article <6f1f58c2-b320-4201-9f7c-cd2f15ab7772@d19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > > On Jun 17, 11:23 am, Dartos <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote:> Makes me > > think that there is "something" that has turned you into [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. > jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of > the joint you have all the trouble with? If so, what was done and when? I havent had any, although i tried to push for them, but when the doctors Ive seen wouldnt even back me up my insurance kept denying me. Dr. Schames this dentist at white memorial craniofacial pain clinic said i didnt have anything that warranted any imaging. UCLA just treated me like im a lunatic. One neurologist tried to get me an MRI authorized, but even after he sent a bunch of dication they still denied me. Dr. Boyd said that I probably have a displaced disk on that side. > Webby > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. I was just wondering if any studies were done. I wasn't meaning that they should have been... just wondering *if*. So... have you hit the water yet???? You can do bobs for a couple minutes or longer, swim a few laps, bob some more ... and after 30 minutes, you should feel *better* about a whole lot of stuff. So... hit the water and take your mind off all this other stuff!!! You can't clench and swim at the same time!!!!! Webby In article <e37d0b17-326d-4ae2-b038-55c9157086be@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > jerm, did any of the doctors perform any kind of radiology studies of > > the joint you have all the trouble with? If so, what was done and when? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > > > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. > I was just wondering if any studies were done. I wasn't meaning that > they should have been... just wondering *if*. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > > > > > > > it seems like in less than an hour of taking it out things get bad. Lol......maybe your right. In article <55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c84854f@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > I was just wondering if any studies were done. I wasn't meaning that > > they should have been... just wondering *if*. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > Webby > Lol......maybe your right. Okay then! What are you waiting for??? Webb! > In article > <55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c848...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Webb! I totally would, but the migraine i had yesterday is back again, right on time. In article <f219c858-4d0e-41cd-b9f2-bb2e9b243d8b@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <55d264eb-2b36-4016-9d97-3b098c848...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I totally would, but the migraine i had yesterday is back again, right > on time. Where is this water? In article <tmjiatroepidemic-C63815.19122017062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <f219c858-4d0e-41cd-b9f2-bb2e9b243d8b@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Where is this water? If I am acting as "coach", don't mess with me! I don't want to hear about why you aren't in the water... I want to SEE you IN the water (NOW)!!! Webby!!! > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-C63815.19122017062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Webby!!! Right away!......sorry for disobeying orders.....im getting wet immediately..................does it mean anything that triptan drugs barely do anything for my headaches???? >>> a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you >>> were sitting in my office. > > Maybe I am mentally ill. But, it sure seems like the only people with > that opinion of me, are the doctors who have been unable to help me. I didn't mean you were bonkers. It's just that the brain and the nervous system run on electricity and chemicals. If the wrong signals are being sent to the wrong areas, normal function may no longer exist. At this time, nobody has a complete understanding of this and an ability to change things reliably for the better. Lots of people believe that taking the right actions and taking control of your thoughts can improve your mental health (read: functioning of your brain and nervous system...not whether you are crazy or sane). Why are there so many belief systems in the world? Everyone is searching for that inner peace which helps them remain calm and relaxed in a chaotic world. All of the religions, Yoga, martial arts (if you get into them very far), Norman Vincent Peale's books, etc., all try to direct you to a system that helps your inner self. Some people believe you can change your brain function with the right attitudes, beliefs, and actions. Others believe in a combination of the right prescription meds. I don't know. As much as we have learned about medicine and science, we have probably barely scratched the surface of the entire universe of information. D > >>> a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental > >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > D I just find it difficult to believe that my emotions and mental stability is causing my pain. Its not like I sit around and cry all day. Basically my life sucks only because of the headaches and pain in my jaw. If it wasnt for this junk, id be down the street at the beach right now without a care in the world. > > >>> a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental > > >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > for this junk, id be down the street at the beach right now without a > care in the world. but then again, what do I know. > > > >>> a mega-clencher. Closed bite, drugs, depression, other mental > > > >>> condition....I don't know and wouldn't be likely to know if you [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > but then again, what do I know. or is it just my cns is all screwed up. That something hurts? ;-( D > but then again, what do I know. > That something hurts? > > ;-( > D > > > but then again, what do I know. Man, im in more pain right now than ive ever been in. I know that this is hard for all the NTI believers, but its not helping me, in fact im getting worse. > > That something hurts? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is hard for all the NTI believers, but > its not helping me, in fact im getting worse. Three days with a nonstop headache, and my jaw is tighter and giving me more pain than ever. I wish i knew what to do. My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in the NTI 'manual'. D >>>That something hurts? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > me more pain than ever. > I wish i knew what to do. > My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of > the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > me more pain than ever. > > I wish i knew what to do. just keep going back then huh. I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more options. Make a 'standard' NTI and 80% of patients get better fast. A little tweaking here or there, and another 10-15% show improvement. The last 5% are tough. Steve > just keep going back then huh. > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more > options. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > just keep going back then huh. thanks Steve, im sure im a tough case with the migraine and the stressed and depressed profile, but I can already tell I cant live without it at this point. > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more > options. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve Steve, are the last 5% just tough, or are they definitely not going to work out? > > just keep going back then huh. > > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more > > options. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > just keep going back then huh. hows this guys claim......-------->.The NTI device is only about 50% effective, mainly for people who clench their teeth. If your joints pop and click then you have a derangement that needs functional treatment to correct. The NTI is only a simple band-aid. It will help, maybe, to quiet the pain, but it will do nothing to correct the joint problem (actually in some cases it could make it worse). John Halmaghi, DDS The guy has not figured out how to justify billing $30K for a full mouth re-hab when the NTI has a greater success rate. Signature/ Amatus / > On Jun 21, 4:38 am, Steven Fawks <tuthjoc...@myturbonet.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > just keep going back then huh. hows this guys claim......-------->.The NTI device is only about 50% effective, mainly for people who clench their teeth. If your joints pop and click then you have a derangement that needs functional treatment to correct. The NTI is only a simple band-aid. It will help, maybe, to quiet the pain, but it will do nothing to correct the joint problem (actually in some cases it could make it worse). John Halmaghi, DDS In article <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9d32@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > > I would until Jim says he doesn't have any more > > options. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > > just keep going back then huh. Ask your docs if there could be a problem with your coronoid process. It's a long......long shot... but *worth* asking. And ask *if* the MRI will provide a good study of that structure (right and left). The guy figures it's a no-brainer to get an MRI to prove (to you) that your "clicking" is because of an internal derangement inside the joint. That's all well and good and expensive ... but does it also prove that facial bones related to the jaw function are not part of the problem? Rule in and rule out. That is my two-cents on the subject for now. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-6D6EC3.09293523062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9d32@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Webby Oops ... forgot to add Stove Pipe's comment too... Eagle Syndrome. Sorry Stovie!! > In article > <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Webby The doctor who ordered the MRI is a neurologist I havent seen for a couple months(took that long to get it authorized), and I had'nt really planned on going back to him since I see Dr.Boyd with a really good neurologist. Anyways, the MRI is scheduled for tomorrow for the bilateral TMJs, and Im trying to decide if I should cancel or not. In article <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f079@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <33123c76-32ce-4a06-be90-cda0d36a9...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > is scheduled for tomorrow for the bilateral TMJs, and Im trying to > decide if I should cancel or not. Did you ask Dr. Boyd what he thinks? What do you have to lose by delaying it until you talk to him? *And* ask if you might be better served by getting a CT scan instead or in addition to an MRI *if* it's time to get studies at this point. Webby > In article > <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Webby Havent had a chance to ask him, but i suppose things could still get better yet, so like your saying I might as well wait. > In article > <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Webby I cancelled it and sent him an email. I hate that im not doing better and feel like a complete nuisance. I can even concentrate with this pain. I think i better drop my classes as well. People just look at me like im the biggest grouch in the world. I guess its all showing on my facial expression. In article <6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf033@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <b87dc530-70c7-48ea-a43d-fae62f09f...@a32g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > People just look at me like im the biggest grouch in the world. I > guess its all showing on my facial expression. jerm, I have to do a few things and then I'll be back with some comments. Webby > In article > <6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Webby No prob, thanks.....Jim just emailed me and said about the MRI that I should go for it. its not giving me a good feeling. In article <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <6142cc19-0738-494b-90aa-0a0e7d9bf...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > should > go for it. its not giving me a good feeling. Hmmmm. Ask him what you can learn from the MRI than you can not learn from a CT (3-D) as it might apply to your condition. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-E2B548.21204623062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Webby P.S. I have know Dr. Boyd, personally, for a dozen years. Webby In article <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, [cut to shorten] > > > > > The doctor who ordered the MRI is a neurologist I havent seen for a > > > > > couple months(took that long to get it authorized), and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > should > go for it. its not giving me a good feeling. Did you ask him why you should have an MRI instead of a CT ... *or* why you should have both? You can tell him that I asked you to ask him. I have no problem with that. Webby In article <tmjiatroepidemic-F391DE.21282023062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826ccf89@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Webby jerm, I asked as I did only because he said you should go on with the MRI. Had he not said that, my question/s would not have been the same. Instead, I would have asked you to ask him if you need a "study" ... and if so, which study/s should you have in order to *"rule in and rule out"* whatever it is "they" are looking for in answer to your unresolved symptoms. Anyway, maybe I should have kept my fingers tied down or my keyboard locked up. Hmmmmm. Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-F391DE.21282023062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Webby Its alright, I can tell that Im not progressing as hoped. I just cant figure out why all the exams ive had were supposedly negative, while having all these real symptoms that make real noises. And now, still not doing hot with a device that should help me. Seems like the blame is falling on myself. > In article > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Webby I only let him know by email that I could get it done and paid for, and he just sent a short reply saying to go for it, and that it might solve a mystery, as ive been plaguing him for a while now. Im guessing that not having a dramatic resolution by now my chances are dwindling possibly. Thanks Webby In article <8c6e19d2-f9db-487f-9f83-d58c68405d72@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <260ac7f0-a34b-4e3e-85f1-df18826cc...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, jerm [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Thanks Webby *NO*. No one said your chances of a resolution are dwindling. You forgot about the *patience* part of it all. ... You're tired of it all ... that doesn't mean you should conclude anything yet. Get some rest tonight and arise tomorrow with some strength you do not have right now at the end of the day. I am going to start a new thread about this subject tomorrow. It's time to shift gears just a bit. Webby > In article > <8c6e19d2-f9db-487f-9f83-d58c68405...@s33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Webby btw, is an MRI of the tmjs a reliable study or indicator of whats going on, or are there alot of false positives and negatives? > My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of > the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > me more pain than ever. > > I wish i knew what to do. seems like motrin is the only thing aborts the headaches, and im still wondering if using it is gonna set me for rebound headaches. Imitrex barely does anything. > My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of > the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in > the NTI 'manual'. > > D I emailed Jim and he mentioned another device he uses called the multipurpose NTI? > >>>That something hurts? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > me more pain than ever. > > I wish i knew what to do. > My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of > the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > me more pain than ever. > > I wish i knew what to do. Dr.Boyd has another device called the multipurpose NTI. Im guessing its for the super clencher. I guess he's just gonna hook me up no charge. One cool guy that Dr. Boyd. > My opinion would be to change the vertical dimension of > the NTI, and look for any of the usual trouble spots in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > me more pain than ever. > > I wish i knew what to do. This was posted on this board i believe Alexander Vasserman DDS., BS This will allow me to quickly diagnose wheither the problem is occlusal dysfunction, true nocturnal parafunction (very rare), or nuerological in origin (certain recreational drug use can cause this). If the problem is the first in the list it can be treated so that you will not need the night guard. If it is the 2nd a hard occlusal splint is needed to be worn at night or when you are under stress this will protect your teeth during grinding. If it is the third there are no known treatments for this it would not matter what you would do or what type of dentistry you have done you will distroy anything placed in your mouth. I mean i have a history of recreational use back in the nineties, but I have completely abstained for a few years. Does this mean that my condition is untreatable, and that i am going to "destroy anything placed in my mouth?", or is this referring to a current user who is trying to treat his bruxism. I have been using the NTI for more than a month and i havent destroyed it, only put a couple light grooves. Causing and contributing are two different issues. ;-) D > I just find it difficult to believe that my emotions and mental > stability is causing my pain. > Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or > you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if > you're interested please let us know right away! .... Um..... who's doing the driving....?.... ;-) Cheers SP In article <518f1e05-6b36-4605-827c-733b2506fae3@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > Transportation will be provided from the Blind Center to the lanes or > > you can meet us there. We start bowling on Monday April 14th so if [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cheers > SP Now that's not a fair question!!! ;-) Webby Im addicted to a > plastic piece. I get withdrawals. I'm certainly not laughing at your situation, but I can't help hearing my wife say almost the same thing: "You got me addicted to this thing". I remind her that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI or not. If she feels better wearing it, then she might want to continue. Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she is dependent upon the NTI to prevent pain. If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up), it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall. D Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... <the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....> Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus, all-a other regs, _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_: StovePipe, here, puttin' in his annual appearance... Actually, I'm planning to get a TeraNews account and hopefully re-use the ol' iBook to get back onto here, just like inna old days... IIRC, registry for a TeraNews basic account is about 4 dollars US fas a one-time payment. > I remind her (your wife) that it is up to her whether she wears her NTI > or not. If she feels better wearing it, then she might want > to continue. Not quite a true addiction, but certainly she > is dependent upon the NTI to *******prevent pain.******** Asterisks my own, to highlight a point: If _I_ place an NTI in a patient's mouth by the chairside cold cure method, I damned well better have a patient with SYMPOTMS. I've learned that if I place 'em to PREVENT further damage to worn-cracked-unbalanced (but asymptomatic) dentitition, they will put 'em in the top drawer after two weeks.... All sorts o' reasons: looks like hell (all yellowed and stained), doesn't let 'em close their mouths as they try to sleep... too big in the front of the mouth.... they're _too old_ to adapt to new habits.... Basically, I'm not _Charismatic_ enough to convince 'em to tough out the first month, 'till they get used to 'em. Jim Boyd touches on this in one of his lectures (interview by David Doddell) in mp3 format that is on the Keller Labs site. Y'all can hear that here: http://www.kellerlab.com/AudioFiles1.shtml ...although most-a youse already have this lecture on one-a Tim's CD's Basically, he says that if they don't have symptoms, they maybe won't appreciate what the NTI will do for 'em, where as if there _are_ experiencing symptoms, and therefore thy're feeling relief by wearing their NTIs, they're much more willing to say _So What???_ when/if they experience jaw seating/occlusal discrepancies, dry mouth, etc... 'S'at because I can't seem to get 'em as well adjusted and polished as, for example, those upper/lower devices that Dartos placed on one of the patients that dropped in to the site that Tim put up a couple-a years back? ...... Prolly...... <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....> I'm getting slightly better acceptance using the Keller Labs NTI product, especially on those cases where a Standard Long (I usually use that, as the Short seems to hurt the upper centrals) or even a Reduced Vertical DE won't fit unless I destroy either the labial or lingual wall. Most-a these cases also need a lower or upper slider on the opposite dental arch. I believe that _jerm_ should have a slider instead of wearing his nighttime device during day time hours... but that's for Jim Boyd to say. ... but for asymptomatic patients, 'specially those who have abandoned their NTIs, I'm using the Eclipse, by Dentsply. > If she breaks hers (she's my worst patient about tearing them up), > it is an emergency to get a new one before nightfall. > > D Hey Dartos: Whyn't you make a couple-a devices in advance? That's what _I_ did for one young lady I have who has gone through FOUR of them inside a year.... Y'all heard right: FOUR... QUATRE... QUATRO....VIERMALIG.... All placed chair-side-ally on the lower arch. If she breaks it again, I'll let Keller try to make a stronger device, if they can. (Breaks lengthwise, as if you intentionally pulled the labial and lingual plates apart with some Tyranna-saurus Rex jaws....) .... come to think of it, she _does_ have a dog.... 'wonder if doggeys go for NTIs like they do dentures...?.... But, I digress.... Duz anybody think that maybe _jerm_ has a bit of the Eagle Syndrome (calcification of the stylo-clavicular ligaments) operating here? That might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise after a certain neck or head movement... ....just a thought.... To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have you tried _drawing_ or _painting_ your pain? That might be theraputic... Also for Webby: Sheesh; Y'all have almost enough material here to do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a collaborative effort with _jerm_... Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN Cheers ;-) SP Stove my friend, long time no see(see?)... Hope all is well and good... whats shakin' in your orchard? TD > Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Cheers ;-) > SP > Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Cheers ;-) > SP I actually managed to get in the water yesterday and was oblivious to my jaw, was great. Seems like the NTI really helps, but i pull the thing out, and an hour or so later I end up with cramp on the one side that used to pop alot(a pinching pain), while the other side might contract as well, sort of a tug of war-so far about a little over a month into this that fact has remained constant, while my other symptoms such as the back of neck headache, has improved some. Would an MRI be helpful for my case? I was informed by a doctors office that an MRI of my Tmjs was finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to myself. Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!! Steve > Would an MRI be helpful for my case? I was informed by a doctors > office that an MRI of my Tmjs was > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to > myself. You can say that again. And again. Webby > Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to > > myself. > Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!! > > Steve Definitely. I think id rather end up on hard drugs than have somebody cut my jaw joints. Is the MRI only something to justify surgery? The one side hurts and pops(probably displaced disk?), so I find that out. Does that even change anything, seeing as how Im not going to consider surgery anyways? Just more information to scare me to death? > > Would an MRI be helpful for my case? I was informed by a doctors > > office that an MRI of my Tmjs was > > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to > > myself. In article <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa4435a@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, > > Just talk to Jim before you let anyone talk you into surgery!!!!!!! > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > finally authorized. So I could have this imaging at no charge to > > > myself. jerm, there are a bunch of things I might like to say but that doesn't mean I should or I shouldn't. But the one thing I will say to you is this: if *anyone* recommends any kind of surgery upon your jaw joints based only upon an MRI, you should get additional opinions. Webby > In article > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Webby Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you think its best I dont know I understand. Is there any good that could come from me getting the imaging? > > In article > > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > come > from me getting the imaging? I think the neurologist that ordered it was convinced that I was a hypochondriac migranieur that was imagining the TMJ problems. I think the term he used on my medical records was "conversion disorder". I watched this guys dvd he gives to his new patient, and his opinion is that TMJ problems are a pitfall for migraine diagnosis-needless to say I got my records and moved on. So, im just wondering if I should even bother with the MRI. In article <7dd16d70-d360-487f-a25f-aaf800447b86@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, > > > In article > > > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > diagnosis-needless to say I got my records and moved on. So, im just > wondering if I should even bother with the MRI. I would ask Dr. Boyd to comment upon this. He knows your condition; he's treating you. You have found reason to have confidence in him. The one thing I would like to say is this: don't have an MRI or any other kind of a scan or study done that will be interpreted by someone you do not have confidence in. There is just no reason to do that to yourself. Don't rush into studies ordered by any doctor who you intend to leave or doubt. There is no emergency here even though it may seem that way to you. You have time to be cautious. And being cautious is the one thing that should be number one on your list of how to go forward at this point. Hang in or just hang ten. ;-) Webby > In article > <7dd16d70-d360-487f-a25f-aaf800447...@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Webby Thanks Webby, In article <0e03f166-4c7b-4281-8c78-091a6b2ebcdf@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > come > from me getting the imaging? It isn't a matter of the imaging being a problem. The interpretation of the study is the only thing that matters to you, the patient. If the study is free ... let's just think for a moment about finances. If the study and surgery were free ... is that all a person should consider before agreeing to a study and a surgery? What we know about MRIs is that they are safe. There isn't any radiation exposure. But ... the interpretation ... yes ... hmmm. Surgeons operate on patients not radiologists. But there will be a radiology report sent to the doctor ordering the study. Then the doctors will decide what to make of the findings. jerm, in a keyboarding world, I am trying to tie my fingers up rather than keyboard (bite my tongue rather than speak). I understand the vulnerability of the patient; in this case, we're thinking about you. Just for the sake of information, I was amongst the first TMJ-MRI patients studied. Back then, the machines overheated before the studies could be completed; we're talking hours. Now, it doesn't take long to complete the MRI and obviously, the imaging is better and the interpretations are based upon two decades *plus* of data. I would not say to you or anyone else that you should not have the study done. Let's face it; there might be some valuable information gleaned from it. Let's see what some of the others have to contribute to this question of yours. And no matter what else ... get yourself into the pool or the ocean .. *SWIM* ... and make it a part of your daily rituals as much as you can. I believe it is the best thing you've got going for yourself. If I were nearby, I'd stand on the deck and bark at you! So.... Webby (forgive typos. posting quickly because of my connection troubles) > In article > <0e03f166-4c7b-4281-8c78-091a6b2eb...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Webby (forgive typos. posting quickly because of my connection troubles) Will do Webby. Thanks for the thoughtful insight. What typos?.........:-) > In article > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa44...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Webby Hi Webby, youve got me curious about what you want to say, but if you think its best I dont know I understand. Is there any good that could come from me getting the imaging? In article <tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062008@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, > In article > <2a06374e-e319-48af-829e-7f547aa4435a@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Webby P.S. I am not giving "medical advice". I'm just giving you friendly advice. There isn't any sort of emergency surgery to be done upon your jaw joints that *would not need additional studies and carefully thought out options* to be offered to you. Keep up the swimming; find a pool in addition to the ocean. It's good for you. (I was a competitive rough-water swimmer at age 11 (just turned eleven).... and I lied about my age when an eleven-year-old could do such a thing. I was supposed to be 12 yrs old to swim the event. I secretly swam around "the pier" before morning pool workouts almost every morning for more than two months with lifeguards paddling with us at about 6 in the morning ... trust me when I tell you that I know the value of swimming.) Stroke and breathe, jerm. Trust me. Webby Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Webby Hey Webby, do you think the bouncing around taking waves on the head is something I should worry about when surfing. I was longboarding yesterday and didnt notice any problems, but it was pretty mellow out. In article <b0f4eb58-e9e8-4116-bb52-ae1c3c75c8fd@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > > In article > > <tmjiatroepidemic-D48C9C.20573022062...@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > surfing. I was longboarding yesterday and didnt notice any problems, > but it was pretty mellow out. I don't think you should worry about it, jerm. Just get out there and enjoy your life. (I'll get to your other post in a second as long as my connection holds up.) Webby In article <7ff54112-06fd-49b2-ba8b-a9173f9f09b2@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > I actually managed to get in the water yesterday and was oblivious to > my jaw, was great. Wonderful!!! Webby Sup pipe? ;-) Steve > Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN > Cheers ;-) > SP Oh my gosh!!!!! And I was thinking about *you* just about 5 days ago... thinking "where is Stovie??" .... he should be back by now!! And here you are!! (I'm having lots of trouble getting usenet via NewsWatcher. I guess it's the program. Anyway, I'm rushing like crazy just to get a few posts out before it won't work again! ' So Stovie, send me an email!!! Hope your family is well and all that stuff. Webby (who is so glad to see you back around) In article <fdd78075-e07a-485c-b701-aa54f4e7eff5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... > [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > Cheers ;-) > SP In article <fdd78075-e07a-485c-b701-aa54f4e7eff5@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > might explain some of his spasm-like pains, especially if they arise > after a certain neck or head movement... Swimming can be both therapeutic and diagnostic. > ....just a thought.... Me too. > To _jerm_ ... Hey, man: 'd be really bitchin' if you could get back to > surfin'.... and forget a bit about your pain... But failing that, have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do follow-up to The TMJ IatroEpidemic.... That could be a > collaborative effort with _jerm_... Hahaha.... you've got a point there! Webby > Well, I have nothing else to say, so I'll say TTFN > Cheers ;-) > SP >Bless me, Oh SMD, for it has been more'n a year since my last post.... > ><the Pipe hangs his haid and eats Styrofoam....> > >Howdy Webby, Dartos, Amatus, Vaughn-a-tus, Newby-a-tus, all-a other >regs, _prions_, _virus_, and _jerm_: >...... Prolly...... <the Pipe again hangs his haid in shame, and >eats worms.... W/O ketchup.....> Hiya Pipey ! Good to know your diet hasn't changed much ! Don't forget to wash that down with some brake fluid. On Jun 22, 8:46 pm, New...@bix.nex wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:12:28 -0700 (PDT), StovePipe > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Don't forget to wash that down with some brake fluid. prions_, _virus_, and _jerm <---------(: >> but i can tell the NTI is fighting the spasms for sure!.....into the >> afternoon my masseters start contracting. should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >D JimB = Jedi Master ? Yes ! > it seems like im sleeping alot better > with the NTI for sure as well. im dreaming alot more undisturbed, as > before my sleep was completely fragmented That was my experience on wearing an NTI Day time NTI Signature/ Amatus / >> And the little boy blurts out, "The King is naked!" >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > like something is just forever inflamed in my cranium. im really > worried about that. >> not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we >> speak. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] ><VBG> >D Ohh, ohh, ohh, <with hand up> Get a Kubota ! On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: > >> not a problem!..........shopping for a farm as we > >> speak. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Get a Kubota ! im guessing thats a brand of tractor!! >On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > im guessing thats a brand of tractor!! Yep, and a good one at that. Though it isn't very fancy, I'd have to say that my 1961 Ford is a good tractor since it still starts easy and gets the job done. It's never even been converted to 12V. Steve >>>Get a Kubota ! >> >> im guessing thats a brand of tractor!! > > Yep, and a good one at that. Beautiful shade of orange, too !!! Signature/ Amatus / > On May 31, 10:57 am, New...@bix.nex wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > im guessing thats a brand of tractor!! Well said and bloody well right ! Right as Rain, Sound as the Pound, Bob's your Uncle. >Well, I ain't no "TMJ expert", but I know of some cases where the >"experts" did way more harm than good! [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> neck,head pain, but >> the cramping pain on the side of my jaw that pops seems worse. > Well said and bloody well right ! > > Right as Rain, Sound as the Pound, Bob's your Uncle. I also have to give credit where credit is due. AC was also instrumental to me giving the NTI a try. I heard of them, looked at the website, and thought, "what can that little piece of plastic do? if that's all there was to treating TMJ and clenching, someone would have thought of it before now." This is everyones initial reaction and is quite normal. It's also normal to expect the highest educated, most specialized practitioners to have the best treatment for a condition. Well, sometimes your better off going to a gp out in the boonies <G>. Took me almost a year to actually make one. My receptionist was having TMJ troubles, had consulted her physician (go figure!), and had been referred to an oral surgeon (OMG!). I said, "That might be a dangerous road to travel. Why don't you try one of these new little bite guards before you do anything major?" My first NTI was a roaring success! The rest is history. I've made hundreds of the things in the last 8 years or so. JME, Steve Jim Boyd was still working over here in the Great Lakes Region when he got me started on making NTI's. About ten years ago....... I was skeptical and went back and forth with Jim and Hans on this forum and private email. Finally Jim sent me a sample to try. Fitted it on my RDA. She loved it and still has it. Made a couple more,,,,,, same results. I have never looked back since. The practice "Up North" is now converting to NTI's. Go figure. Signature/ Amatus / > >> Well said and bloody well right ! [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > JME, > Steve > Jim Boyd was still working over here in the Great Lakes Region when he got > me started on making NTI's. About ten years ago....... I was skeptical and [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > JME, > > Steve Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the disk. i keep hearing how they will make someone with damage even worse? > Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the > disk. i keep hearing how they will make > someone with damage even worse? I have only treated one case with an NTI that was obviously a displaced/damaged disc. This patient went from having a relative normal bite, to only touching on the right posteriors. She only came to me after everyone else had given up, and they wanted to do surgery. After extracting some wisdom teeth, a year or two with the NTI, and some occlusal adjustments, she is almost back to normal. Is this a better result than just surgery in the first place? I think so. Mainly because this 'injury' was not from a fall or car accident. What ever caused the 'injury' was still likely to be in play during and after the surgery. How would healing progress with this additional trauma? Most patients and many dentists just do not understand the severe problems that arise from parafunctional activities (clenching/bruxism). Once the light bulb comes on, and you see the NTI in action, it all comes together. Dentist study 'occlusion' (how the teeth fit together and the jaw relations). Jim made the discovery that it isn't the 'occlusion' but the 'occluding' (the force, frequency, and intensity that the teeth are in contact) that matters most. IMO, the longer after an injury that you are still clenching uncontrollably, the more likely that permanent damage has/will occur. D I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you don't mind answering? > Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the > disk. i keep hearing how they will make > someone with damage even worse? > I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you > don't mind answering? id rather not say , as im not sure how cool that is, but his price has been very very reasonable considering the time he has spent with me doing adjustments when i was really not making any progress before. he even had made me a second upper appliance for free, which is something i doubt any would do. And then he also returned alot of my ,im sure , annoying emails on his own time. > > Does the NTI work with someone who has had trauma or dislocated the > > disk. i keep hearing how they will make > > someone with damage even worse? That sounds like our friend Jim. Signature/ Amatus / >> I'm curious how much has Dr. Boyd charged you for your care so far if you >> don't mind answering? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > disk. i keep hearing how they will make >> > someone with damage even worse? Bull sh**! Steve > ive also been told that because i have a joint that is popping and > grating every few days, that i have some joint damage > that could be made worse by using an NTI. |
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