Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / April 2008
do implants *really* feel natural?
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mark.fermin@yahoo.com - 12 Mar 2008 13:33 GMT It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand side).
Almost all the dentists' web-sites say that implants 'feel totally natural', but then, they're trying to sell implants!
But I believe that with an implant, you lose the periodontal ligament, and with it two factors: the cushioning 'natural suspension' and the feedback to your jaw muscles (proprioception?)
This makes me wonder if chewing with an implant feels really unnatural. Or does the periodontal ligament of the opposing tooth make up for this, in effect doing the job for both teeth?
I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have heard from their patients on this subject.
Amatus Cremona - 12 Mar 2008 13:47 GMT Never had a patient notice anything out of the range of their expectations.
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> It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my > lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have > heard from their patients on this subject. Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 12 Mar 2008 16:25 GMT > It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my > lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and with it two factors: the cushioning 'natural suspension' and the > feedback to your jaw muscles (proprioception?) This is absolutely true.
> This makes me wonder if chewing with an implant feels really > unnatural. Or does the periodontal ligament of the opposing tooth make > up for this, in effect doing the job for both teeth? > > I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have > heard from their patients on this subject. I can echo what Amatus says--I've never heard a patient complain about this. Chewing (natural function) is not the same as tapping on an implant-borne crown. Yes, the proprioception is different. Patients have still reported that they feel pressure or vibration, and it is not the same as a natural tooth. IOW, you lose a very small amount of proprioception. But at the same time, if you lose a tooth and don't replace it, you've lost those proprioceptive fibers in that periodontal ligament as well. And while patients may lose chewing efficiency (esp. if there are multiple teeth involved) they never complain of anything that sounds like it is the proprioceptive response. Your other point--that the PDL provides a cushioning effect to the tooth is not without significance when it comes to implants. The fact that even periodontally healthy teeth have some "give" to them while implant fixtures are essentially fused to the bone means that connecting multiple crowns or bridges onto both teeth and implants is a bad idea. Generally the bridge will loosen up, posing increased chance of decay on the tooth abutments. And the fact that implants don't move means the stresses are carried disproportionately on the implants in these cases, sometimes leading to failure of the implant.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Newbie@bix.nex - 14 Mar 2008 05:11 GMT How about hearing from a dentist who actually has an implant ?
It doesn't feel any different and I only think about it when someone asks about it.
Wouldn't hesitate to get another if the need arose.
>It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my >lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have >heard from their patients on this subject. me@privacy.net - 14 Mar 2008 17:36 GMT >How about hearing from a dentist who actually has an implant ? > >It doesn't feel any different and I only think about it when >someone asks about it. > >Wouldn't hesitate to get another if the need arose. How much is an implant for left rear molar now days?
Newbie@bix.nex - 15 Mar 2008 01:20 GMT >>How about hearing from a dentist who actually has an implant ? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >How much is an implant for left rear molar now days? Only your surgeon knows for sure.
Dr Chan - 26 Mar 2008 07:21 GMT On Mar 15, 12:36 am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> New...@bix.nex wrote: > >How about hearing from a dentist who actually has an implant ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How much is an implant for left rear molar now days? I normally charge S$3000 for the fixture (Osstem or Bicon) and the prosthesis. A minor bone graft would cost an additional S$500.
I've done a complete implant restoration for a dentist before. He reports a very slight difference in proprioception initially (first couple of weeks after loading) but absolutely no difference after that.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists (Singapore)
Lobo - 27 Mar 2008 01:03 GMT I just inquired about implant cost and was told it will be about $1700. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Delete the obvious to reply to me personally. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I normally charge S$3000 for the fixture (Osstem or Bicon) and the prosthesis. A minor bone graft would cost an additional S$500.
I've done a complete implant restoration for a dentist before. He reports a very slight difference in proprioception initially (first couple of weeks after loading) but absolutely no difference after that.
Dr Chan - 01 Apr 2008 01:44 GMT > I just inquired about implant cost and was told it will be about $1700. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > couple of weeks after loading) but absolutely no difference after > that. S$3000 is about USD2100, crown included.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists
Jeffrey Krantz - 22 Mar 2008 18:50 GMT > How about hearing from a dentist who actually has an implant ? I lost a lower first molar due to a fracture [it had been root treated and had a full cast crown]. It was extracted and the extraction site grafted immediately. Three months later a Bicon implant was placed and three months after that the crown was placed. I dont notice a thing in the area. My reasoning for the implant vs. a three unit bridge was that both adjacent teeth were caries free and not in need of any restorations.
And I am a practicing dentist
JK
freedomfightermirelle123@gmail.com - 22 Mar 2008 22:51 GMT > And I am a practicing dentist Yah, sure you are, jeffie. However, any Muslims beware of going to get any dental work form this freak:
> > They do, Jeffy. Torture, extra-judicial murder, ten thousand hostages held
> > without charge or trial. collective punishments, illegal deportations, the
> > squatter camps in the WB... > As it should be. Until animals learn how to behave, that how they should be
> treated. Not good for business, Dr. Kranz, owner of: East Village Dental Associates. Dr. Jeffrey Krantz 645 E 11th St New York, NY 10009 USA (212) 979-6300
Calling People animals, does not bring in the shekels, Dr. Krantz.
> JK
> <New...@bix.nex> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > JK Dick Ballard - 16 Mar 2008 02:36 GMT I have two implants about 2 years old, #9 and #12. The #9 implant, being right up front, has a noticeable lack of sensation compared to #8 next to it.
I don't notice anything different about #12 unless I tap it with my finger nail or a dental tool and compare it to #11 or #13. It's probably less noticeable because it's further from the lips and incisors and needs less information.
However, these differences do not bother me and I am usually not aware of the changes unless I start thinking about them or if I have to extract some debris from between the teeth.
Dick Ballard ballardr@att.net
>It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my >lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have >heard from their patients on this subject. fredq@comcast.net - 23 Mar 2008 06:56 GMT On Mar 12, 5:33 am, mark.fer...@yahoo.com wrote:
> It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my > lower jaw (the molar nearest the front of my mouth, on the left-hand [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'd therefore be very interested to hear what dentists in this ng have > heard from their patients on this subject. The following is from Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth page325
There is a trend in dentistry that is starting to emerge from all this success wiht implants. If you go to a surgeon for an extraction, often they are selling you a bone graft so they may place an implant in 6 months rather than waiting for bone to fill the space where the root of the tooth was. Of course there is a charge for the bone graft. These holes will almost always fill on their own. Extraction sites have been healing and filling with bone since the first teeth were extracted. It just takes a little longer, say 9 months.
I had one patient who went to a surgeon to have a tooth extracted. The surgeon insisted on doing the graft even though the patient had no interest in replacing the tooth. Six months later the graft was loose and there was an infection in the area. The graft was being rejected. The patient now needed to have the graft removed and was left with a larger bone defect than if it had just healed normally without the graft. He still does not want the implant. Surgeons with somewhat elastic ethics insist on grafting all extraction sites. It does add a fee of about $300 per extraction.
Endodontists, those specialists who do root canals, are getting into the game. Some of the more aggressive among them will look at a tooth that will be a difficult root canal and simply extract it and place an implant. Of course the cost of the implant is about 3 to 4 times the cost of the root canal. I can understand this if the root canal is impossible but I have a little trouble when it is done just because there is a difficult root canal. Some restorative dentists also do implants. If they see decay that is difficult and will require extra time to do a crown and maybe an implant, they will do an implant instead. The argument is that the crown may not last, so let's do the more predictable implant. Of course we will never know that the crown will not last if the tooth is removed and an implant is placed. Of course, the implant fee is many times that of a difficult crown and possible root canal.
Implants work, but I fear they are being over prescribed. They are much more invasive and costly than a root canal or a difficult crown. Who should place implants?
Well, clearly, oral surgeons are trained to do implants. The problems I have seen are that they sometimes do not align the implants very well. This makes restoring the case with crowns very difficult if not impossible. They also tend to be rougher with the gum tissue and the bone. Periodontists are my favorite implant placers. They tend to be much kinder to the tissue and the bone. Perio surgery is a much more precise surgery than removing teeth.
I think general dentists should place implants. The techniques are not that difficult and the average dentist who is willing to take some continuing education courses and purchase some additional equipment is capable of doing implants. If you need an implant, I would suggest that you have someone who does 10 a month not someone who does 5 a year. They are technique sensitive. Do not do them just because it is easier to do than a root canal or a crown. While they are very predictable they do occasionally fail.
Fred Quarnstrom, DDS Author Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Mar 2008 20:34 GMT > The following is from Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth page325 > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have been healing and filling with bone since the first teeth were > extracted. It just takes a little longer, say 9 months. This is at best an oversimplification, and at worse dishonest. I do not necessarily recommend ROUTINE placement of bone grafts in extraction sockets. Furthermore, I have never done this myself. However, crestal bone loss ALWAYS occurs after extraction; furthermore in most areas of the mouth the loss causes a spiny, thin residual ridge. In many cases, grafting helps preserve both the height and the width of the alveolar ridge. Yes, they almost always heal, but there is bone loss. The quoted paragraph is difficult to believe was written by a dentist.
Steve
> I had one patient who went to a surgeon to have a tooth extracted. The > surgeon insisted on doing the graft even though the patient had no [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Fred Quarnstrom, DDS > Author Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth Newbie@bix.nex - 24 Mar 2008 04:42 GMT My dearest SB,
It seems to me that you are casting your pearls before swine.
Though I haven't researched the matter yet, does anyone know if Fred Quarnstrom truly exists, and is he a licensed DDS ? Is there actually a published book, as he claims ?
Something tells me that there is a rotten apple in this kettle of fish.
>> The following is from Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth page325
> This is at best an oversimplification, and at worse dishonest. > >Steve Probably both, either way, I smell a rat.
>> Fred Quarnstrom, DDS >> Author Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth Will leave my blue comments untyped, for now.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Here's Fred's headers:
Path: core-phx-easynews!news-in-01-phx.easynews.com!news.easynews.com!en236!core-easynews!news-in-02.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!news-out.readnews.com!transit3.readnews.com!postnews.google.com!h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: fredq@comcast.net Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry Subject: Re: do implants *really* feel natural? Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 22:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 81 Message-ID: <c40ff2c7-59e1-4b58-9e41-701a48f38810@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com> References: <e3a8eef2-ec56-4fea-bb01-620dafb73534@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.170.113.207 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1206251773 9032 127.0.0.1 (23 Mar 2008 05:56:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 05:56:13 +0000 (UTC) Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com; posting-host=67.170.113.207; posting-account=aqY2vwoAAAAG4asDxVbkeH0nTBPuwZod User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Xref: core-phx-easynews sci.med.dentistry:299920
Steven Bornfeld - 24 Mar 2008 13:13 GMT > My dearest SB, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Something tells me that there is a rotten apple in this > kettle of fish. I have no reason to go ad hominem on him. Let's assume he is a licensed practicing dentist. We all can probably agree that overtreatment is bad. But we don't agree that selective bone grafting at the time of extraction when implant placement is anticipated is a bad idea--an impression a casual reading of his book is sure to give the unwary.
Steve
>>> The following is from Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth page325 > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) > Xref: core-phx-easynews sci.med.dentistry:299920 Newbie@bix.nex - 25 Mar 2008 22:53 GMT >> Something tells me that there is a rotten apple in this >> kettle of fish. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steve Maybe like HRC, he "mis-spoke" 8-]]
Dr Chan - 26 Mar 2008 08:00 GMT On Mar 24, 8:13 pm, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> New...@bix.nex wrote: > > My dearest SB, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Selective is definitely the operative word and Fred does have a point. If you need to open a window into the jaw to extract a tooth, placing bone graft into that window will lead to almost 100% ossification, with or without membrane. Solid bone in 5-6 months. However, if you place bone graft into a regular extraction socket and suture a membrane over it, only the apical 2/3 of the graft will ossify. The coronal 1/3 will either leak out or remain particulate. I have not noticed any difference apart from the size of the patient's bill.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists (Singapore)
Amatus Cremona - 26 Mar 2008 11:17 GMT Vertical and horizontal grafting never stays long term unless you place an implant. If the implant is in place, the bone remains. The grafting is indicated to create a suitable implant site.
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On Mar 24, 8:13 pm, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> New...@bix.nex wrote: > > My dearest SB, [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Selective is definitely the operative word and Fred does have a point. If you need to open a window into the jaw to extract a tooth, placing bone graft into that window will lead to almost 100% ossification, with or without membrane. Solid bone in 5-6 months. However, if you place bone graft into a regular extraction socket and suture a membrane over it, only the apical 2/3 of the graft will ossify. The coronal 1/3 will either leak out or remain particulate. I have not noticed any difference apart from the size of the patient's bill.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists (Singapore)
Dr Chan - 26 Mar 2008 07:47 GMT On Mar 24, 3:34 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> fr...@comcast.net wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yes, bone loss always occurs after an extraction, but the question is, how significant is that bone loss? Will it affect aesthetics? Most importantly: How much can a post extraction graft help? Nowadays, I only place bone grafts when I need to open a window to remove a deeply retained root tip. Other than that, bone grafts under such situations are not cost effective at all. While you are right to say that crestal bone loss always occurs after extraction, I've also noticed that there is hardly any gain in bone width or height with post-extraction grafting. The bone graft supplier must have duped me. Next, a spiny residual ridge only forms after many years of tooth loss. Patterns of bone loss can be found in any textbook on prosthetic dentistry.
I may recommend post-extraction grafting only under 2 circumstances.
1. There is significant bone removal during the extraction 2. The patient is unable to afford the implant yet, but wishes to have it done in a couple of years.
Even then, the second reason is not always justifiable. Bone loss will occur as long as there is no tooth or implant there. Grafting it does not protect the ridge from bone loss over time.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists (Singapore)
Steven Bornfeld - 26 Mar 2008 13:57 GMT > On Mar 24, 3:34 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > residual ridge only forms after many years of tooth loss. Patterns of > bone loss can be found in any textbook on prosthetic dentistry. In periodontal cases, I'm sure you will find spiny ridges. These may require more extensive grafting, if you are going to use a fixture of adequate width.
> I may recommend post-extraction grafting only under 2 circumstances. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > occur as long as there is no tooth or implant there. Grafting it does > not protect the ridge from bone loss over time. I agree with you there. It makes no sense to do a graft and have it resorb.
Steve
> http://www.luckyplazadental.com > New Age Cosmetic Dentists (Singapore) Dr Chan - 01 Apr 2008 01:41 GMT On Mar 26, 8:57 pm, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > On Mar 24, 3:34 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Show quoted text - For perio cases, you would often see 5mm of palatal mucosa, 2mm of buccal mucosa and hardly any socket at all. I would not graft the site soon after extraction as it would be nearly impossible to do it well. Instead, I would wait for the gums to close up nicely before I do a "proper" bone graft with reinforced membrane and primary closure.
http://www.luckyplazadental.com New Age Cosmetic Dentists
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Mar 2008 20:41 GMT > On Mar 12, 5:33 am, mark.fer...@yahoo.com wrote: >> It looks as though I may soon need an implant to replace a molar in my [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > Fred Quarnstrom, DDS > Author Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth Sorry Fred. I have restored cases placed by both periodontists and OMF surgeons. Frankly, I see no consistent advantage of one specialist over another. I am inclined to send a patient to an OMFS in cases that may involve the sinus, or that are close to the IAN. I would suggest that if your surgeons aren't placing implants where you want them, or are rough on the tissues, that you are referring to the wrong surgeons!
Steve
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