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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / March 2008

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Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth

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fredq@comcast.net - 08 Mar 2008 17:11 GMT
I have reviewed the posts of the last few weeks.  Most of the
questions are good questions and show frustration on the part of
patients.  Three of us wrote a book, a consumer's guide to dentistry.
It is available on Amazon.com, search for "Open Wider."  Two of the
authors are patients who had dentists suggest 8 crowns each that they
did not need.  (Actually one needed one crown.)

The book would answer most of the questions you have asked.  I have
has over 1400 messages criticizing the book on two dental town sites
and another dental list.  Dentists do not seem to like the book;
although, very few dentists have read it.

You can see an outline of the book at http://openwider.org or go to
http://Amazon.com and click on the picture of the book and it will let
you read about 15 pages of the book. More if you keep clicking on "
suprise."

If you like what you read, you can purchase the book $18.99 plus
shipping.  Yes this is a commercial but the book has 430 pages of
consumer advice and dental information.  And you can read of lot of
the book free by clicking on the " suprise me" button.

I hope this book is helpful for those of you who need answers.

Dr. Q
Melinda Shore - 08 Mar 2008 17:16 GMT
>Yes this is a commercial but [ ... ]

So, you're posting an advertisement (OOPS) on a Usenet
newsgroup for a product created around the premise that
dentists are just in it for the money?  Unusual!
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

The Webby - 08 Mar 2008 20:18 GMT
> In article
> <19aacf61-6c94-4478-848a-fa6eb67d8f40@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> newsgroup for a product created around the premise that
> dentists are just in it for the money?  Unusual!

Fred Q. isn't really a post and run sort of poster.  He's been around
these parts in the past. I offered a swap with him ... one of my books
for one of his books.  Maybe when he sees the offer, he'll take me up on
it.  I'm not afraid to read his book and he's likely not afraid to read
"mine" either.

(I would mention the book's name, but I don't want to be accused of
advertising on a Usenet newsgroup.)

Webby
(co-author of "that book")
Matt - 09 Mar 2008 01:05 GMT
> (I would mention the book's name, but I don't want to be accused of
> advertising on a Usenet newsgroup.)

I see nothing wrong with advertising on Usenet, in moderation, if it's
relevant to the group.

> Webby
> (co-author of "that book")

IIRC, it has to do with TMJ.  Go ahead if you want.  If anybody bitches
I'll bitch back a little for you.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 01:15 GMT
>I see nothing wrong with advertising on Usenet, in moderation, if it's
>relevant to the group.

It's historically not allowed, although I guess it's
tolerated better in some newsgroups.  It tends to be like
snowmobiles and ATVs, though - there's no such thing as just
one.
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 04:01 GMT
>> I see nothing wrong with advertising on Usenet, in moderation, if it's
>> relevant to the group.
>
> It's historically not allowed, although I guess it's
> tolerated better in some newsgroups.  

Historically it is frowned upon.  "[N]ot allowed" by whom?

> It tends to be like
> snowmobiles and ATVs, though - there's no such thing as just
> one.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 12:15 GMT
>Historically it is frowned upon.

Historically it caused site administrators to terminate your
Usenet access.
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 15:48 GMT
>> Historically it is frowned upon.
>
> Historically it caused site administrators to terminate your
> Usenet access.

You don't mean _mine_.

I expect it is quite rare for anyone's access to be terminated for
posting a non-spam ad (practically really a notice) as the OP Dr.
Quarnstrom did here.

Please inform the group of any specific evidence to the contrary.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 15:57 GMT
>I expect it is quite rare for anyone's access to be terminated for
>posting a non-spam ad (practically really a notice) as the OP Dr.
>Quarnstrom did here.

It is these days, now that ISPs would lose revenue by
requiring their users to behave themselves.  But
historically, back when Usenet access was provided through
universities and tech employers, people who posted ads would
have their Usenet posting privileges terminated.  I would
give a warning before cutting people off, myself, and we
didn't have any repeat offenders.  "Historically" (I figure
if you actually knew something "historically" you'd munge
your domain name to "xyzzy," not "xxxyyz").

In the meantime, aside from the amalgam nuts this is a
pretty terrific newsgroup, with a lot of information and a
lot of dentists making their expertise available to the rest
of us, for which I am grateful.  I would be very, very sorry
to see it turned into Craigslist.  There's not exactly a
shortage of places to find information on things to buy, but
there is a shortage of places to ask dentists questions.
I'm really surprised that you want to crap it up.
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 16:14 GMT
> I'm really surprised that you want to crap it up.

I don't consider an ad (really a notice) for a relevant book to be crap.

I don't see anybody railing about the recent ads for loan consolidation
or prostitutes.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 16:49 GMT
>I don't see anybody railing about the recent ads for loan consolidation
>or prostitutes.

If you saw ads for loan consolidation or prostitutes, find a
better news provider.  
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 17:20 GMT
>> I don't see anybody railing about the recent ads for loan consolidation
>> or prostitutes.
>
> If you saw ads for loan consolidation or prostitutes, find a
> better news provider.  

Four ads pointing to www.sexydamesindianescorts.com ca. 03/06/2008 05:59
AM, for instance.  You didn't get those?  I got them from both of my two
different news servers.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 17:53 GMT
>Four ads pointing to www.sexydamesindianescorts.com ca. 03/06/2008 05:59
>AM, for instance.  You didn't get those?

Nope.  My ISP does excellent spam filtering.
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    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 17:04 GMT
>> I expect it is quite rare for anyone's access to be terminated for
>> posting a non-spam ad (practically really a notice) as the OP Dr.
>> Quarnstrom did here.
>
> It is these days, now that ISPs would lose revenue by
> requiring their users to behave themselves.  

IME it is somewhat unusual nowadays to see much reaction to ads on
Usenet.  Maybe that is due to anti-spam mechanisms that automatically
cancel excessive multiple posts and excessive cross posts.  So the
problem is greatly reduced, and advertisements are often one-off or
occasional ads relevant to the groups in which they appear.  The rest
are ignored most of the time.  I don't think it is very unusual for some
ads to be permitted in moderated groups.

IME crapflooding is the far greater problem nowadays, thankfully not
that I've seen yet in this group.  I don't know that ISP toleration of
it has much to do with the revenue they would lose by cutting off the
perpetrators.  Mostly I think they don't give much of a hoot, or maybe
they are waiting for a software solution.

> But
> historically, back when Usenet access was provided through
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> if you actually knew something "historically" you'd munge
> your domain name to "xyzzy," not "xxxyyz").

It's not much, but I read that AOL green-card ad the hour it was posted.
    I use a different mnemonic for cross product.
Simplicio - 10 Mar 2008 06:38 GMT
> In article <2NSAj.5682$Sa1.1...@news02.roc.ny>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> lot of dentists making their expertise available to the rest
> of us, for which I am grateful.

You might want to take a look at what  the MDS sheets the dentists get
say before they hide them from you...hint ( the wordsCOntRAindEEcated
and amalgam used to be used a lot!) The BEST information you've
received on this newsgroup is about the Hg content of fillings...your
just too ignorant to know
it.
The Webby - 10 Mar 2008 22:18 GMT
> >I expect it is quite rare for anyone's access to be terminated for
> >posting a non-spam ad (practically really a notice) as the OP Dr.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> there is a shortage of places to ask dentists questions.
> I'm really surprised that you want to crap it up.

[I didn't want to clip out any portions so I didn't!]

Before "these days", there were the "old days" when lots of crazy
battles were waged by zealots of many varieties.  I participated in some
activities that are no longer "necessary" (in smd) in order to get the
attention of the audience (lurkers and posters) and with a deep desire
to encourage valuable discussion on a particular subject that involves
dentistry and medicine.  Thinking about it now, if I went back into the
"old days" with all things equal, there isn't anything I wouldn't do
(again) just as I did then because it was done for all the correct
reasons; as unattractive as much of it was.  

It was a frontier back when I arrived (1994).  This newsgroup was very
young and we were all younger then... ;-)  (Some of us are no longer
living.) What I ended up doing with my ideas in the end, was not at all
what I had originally envisioned.  As they say, there is more than one
way to skin a cat. (Poor cat.)  It was the message or messages that I
was *driven* to find a way to deliver... and I did.

All in all, I was ultimately able to influence some people in the
newsgroup (and beyond) by sensitizing them to see certain serious issues
through their profession's patients' eyes.  What we all saw in order to
create that vision was not a pretty sight.  But it was an important one.  
And as a result, I *believe* that if some people accused me of
"spamming" the newsgroup in order to censor my speech by getting my ISPs
to shut me down ... then so be it.  It was a price that had to be paid
for a cause that I believed was critically important to the dentists and
their patients.  And, *so what* if people called me "names" and tried to
assassinate my character!  The fight wasn't for me; I was willing to be
the facilitator and the messenger who came armed with experiences not
ordinarily known nor experienced by dental professionals.  The fight was
for everyone in an effort to understand how certain calamities result
and how all involved suffer in their own ways. In the end, I (with help
from my co-contributor/co-author) had  completed a project in a way that
could never have been done in the days before sci.med.dentistry (and
alt.support.jaw-disorders) existed (that being the older old days). It
was an imperfect literary project that came from an equally imperfect
world.  

IMHO, all "spam" is not created equal.  When I see my opinion of "spam",
I ignore it, delete it, and once in awhile I even report it. For some,
reporting "spam" was a weapon to fight against freedom of speech.

I guess that's enough about that.

Webby
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Mar 2008 01:52 GMT
>I see nothing wrong with advertising on Usenet, in moderation, if it's
>relevant to the group.

Spam in moderation !?

Now that's a novel concept.

Here are your Headers <no arms, no legs, on the back porch>:

Shall I send a report to frontier.net ?
>###############################################################
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From: Matt <matt@themattfella.xxxyyz.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14pre (X11/20071023)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: sci.med.dentistry
Subject: Re: Open Wider: your wallet not your mouth
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Matt - 09 Mar 2008 06:58 GMT
>> I see nothing wrong with advertising on Usenet, in moderation, if it's
>> relevant to the group.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 01:05:11 GMT
> Xref: core-phx-easynews sci.med.dentistry:299688

The subject line you have written vaguely resembles a threat of sexual
assault.  Try to keep your cool.  You are a dentist after all.

Please see my remarks on the definition of Usenet spam as related to
advertisement elsewhere on this thread.
Matt - 09 Mar 2008 06:08 GMT
>> Yes this is a commercial but [ ... ]
>
> So, you're posting an advertisement (OOPS) on a Usenet
> newsgroup for a product created around the premise that
> dentists are just in it for the money?  Unusual!

I know you did not accuse the OP of spamming.  But there is a lot of
ignorance on the topic, and I will take this opportunity to help people
 note that advertising is not a sufficient condition for spam.  The
following references convey in part the meaning of Usenet 'spam' as
understood by system administrators and ISPs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup_spam
> A culture of neutrality towards content precluded defining spam on the basis of advertisement or commercial solicitations. The word "spam" was usually taken to mean excessive multiple posting (EMP), and other neologisms were coined for other abuses — such as "velveeta" (from the processed cheese product) for excessive cross-posting.[6] A subset of spam was deemed cancellable spam, for which it is considered justified to issue third-party cancel messages.[7]

FAQ: Current Usenet spam thresholds and guidelines
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/spam-faq/
> These cancels have nothing whatsoever to do with the contents of the message.  It doesn't matter if it's an advertisement ... spam is cancelled regardless, based on _how many times_ it was said and not _what_ was said.
Melinda Shore - 09 Mar 2008 12:17 GMT
>I know you did not accuse the OP of spamming.  

That's because he didn't spam.

>But there is a lot of
>ignorance on the topic,

What's that snuffling sound?
Signature

    Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - shore@panix.com

     Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community

Matt - 09 Mar 2008 15:31 GMT
>> I know you did not accuse the OP of spamming.  
>
> That's because he didn't spam.

You're right about that.

>> But there is a lot of
>> ignorance on the topic,
>
> What's that snuffling sound?

Snowmobiles?
The Webby - 08 Mar 2008 17:19 GMT
In article
<19aacf61-6c94-4478-848a-fa6eb67d8f40@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> I have reviewed the posts of the last few weeks.  Most of the
> questions are good questions and show frustration on the part of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Dr. Q

I'll trade you one of my books for one of your books.

Webby
Newbie@bix.nex - 09 Mar 2008 01:47 GMT
Reported to:
abuse@comcast.net  
groups-abuse@google.com  
abuse@sprint.com  
abuse@sprintlink.net  
abuse@amazon.com

>Path: core-phx-easynews!news-in-01-phx.easynews.com!news.easynews.com!en236!core-easynews!news-in-02.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newscon02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
>From: fredq@comcast.net
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>    rv:1.8.1.12) Gecko/20080201 Firefox/2.0.0.12,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
>Xref: core-phx-easynews sci.med.dentistry:299681

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