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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / February 2008

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Please summarize the recent Scientific American article on fluoride

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Matt - 22 Jan 2008 00:14 GMT
Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
give a detailed summary of all the major points?  I thank you and the
unborn millions thank you.  :-)

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=second-thoughts-on-fluoride

> FREE PREVIEW
> Scientific American Magazine - January, 2008
> Second Thoughts on Fluoride
> New research indicates that a cavity-fighting treatment could be risky if overused
>
> By Dan Fagin
>  
>
> TOO MUCH OF A GOOD THING: Fluoride is in many foods, beverages and dental products. The ubiquity of the cavity-fighting chemical can result in overconsumption, particularly among young children.
>
>     * Researchers are intensifying their scrutiny of fluoride, which is added to most public water systems in the U.S. Some recent studies suggest that overconsumption of fluoride can raise the risks of disorders affecting teeth, bones, the brain and the thyroid gland.
>     * A 2006 report by a committee of the National Research Council recommended that the federal government lower its current limit for fluoride in drinking water because of health risks to both children and adults.
>
> —The Editors
>
> Long before the passionate debates over cigarettes, DDT, asbestos or the ozone hole, most Americans had heard of only one environmental health controversy: fluoridation. Starting in the 1950s, hundreds of communities across the U.S. became embroiled in heated battles over whether fluorides—ionic compounds containing the element fluorine—should be added to their water systems. On one side was a broad coalition of scientists from government and industry who argued that adding fluoride to drinking water would protect teeth against decay; on the other side were activists who contended that the risks of fluoridation were inadequately studied and that the practice amounted to compulsory medication and thus was a violation of civil liberties.
>
> The advocates of fluoride eventually carried the day, in part by ridiculing opponents such as the right-wing John Birch Society, which called fluoridation a communist plot to poison America. Today almost 60 percent of the U.S. population drinks fluoridated water, including residents of 46 of the nation’s 50 largest cities. Outside the U.S., fluoridation has spread to Canada, the U.K., Australia, New Zealand and a few other countries. Critics of the practice have generally been dismissed as gadflies or zealots by mainstream researchers and public health agencies in those countries as well as the U.S. (In other nations, however, water fluoridation is rare and controversial.) The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention even lists water fluoridation as one of the 10 greatest health achievements of the 20th century, alongside vaccines and family planning.
> Graphic - Get the Rest of the Article
nyscof - 22 Jan 2008 12:05 GMT
"Second Thoughts about Fluoride," reports Scientific American

New York -  January 2, 2008 -- "Some recent studies suggest that over-
consumption of fluoride can raise the risks of disorders affecting
teeth, bones, the brain and the thyroid gland," reports Scientific
American editors (January 2008). "Scientific attitudes toward
fluoridation may be starting to shift," writes author Dan Fagin.

"Fluoride, the most consumed drug in the USA, is deliberately added to
2/3 of public water supplies theoretically to reduce tooth decay, but
with no scientifically-valid evidence  proving safety or
effectiveness," says lawyer Paul Beeber, President, New York State
Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation.

Fagin, award-wining environmental reporter and Director of New York
University's Science, Health and Environmental Reporting Program,
writes, "There is no universally accepted optimal level for daily
intake of fluoride." Some researchers even wonder whether the 1 mg/L
added into drinking water is too much, reports Fagin.

After 3 years of scrutinizing hundreds of studies, a National Research
Council (NRC) committee "concluded that fluoride can subtly alter
endocrine function, especially in the thyroid - the gland that
produces hormones regulating growth and metabolism," reports Fagin.

Fagin quotes John Doull, professor emeritus of pharmacology and
toxicology at the University of Kansas Medical Center, who chaired the
NRC committee thusly, "The thyroid changes do worry me."

Fluoride in foods, beverages, medicines and dental products can result
in fluoride over-consumption, visible in young children as dental
fluorosis - white spotted, yellow, brown and/or pitted teeth. We can't
normally see fluoride's effects to the rest of the body.

Reports Fagin, "a series of epidemiological studies in China have
associated high fluoride exposures with lower IQ."

"(E)pidemiological studies and tests on lab animals suggest that high
fluoride exposure increases the risk of bone fracture, especially in
vulnerable populations such as the elderly and diabetics," writes
Fagin.

Fagin interviewed Steven Levy, director of the Iowa Fluoride Study
which tracked about 700 Iowa children for sixteen years. Nine-year-old
"Iowa children who lived in communities where the water was
fluoridated were 50 percent more likely to have mild fluorosis... than
[nine-year-old] children living in nonfluoridated areas of the state,"
writes Fagin. Levy will study fluoride's effects on their bones.

Over 1200 professionals urge Congress to cease water fluoridation and
conduct Congressional hearings because scientific evidence indicates
fluoridation is ineffective and has serious health risks. Support
them; write your representative here:

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/2477/t/2782/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=21960

(or http://www.FluorideAction.Net )

"(G)enetic, environmental and even cultural factors appear to leave
some people much more susceptible to the effects of fluoride," writes
Fagin

"What the [NRC] committee found is that we've gone with the status quo
regarding fluoride ... for too long... and now we need to take a fresh
look," Doull says, " In the scientific community, people tend to think
that its settled... But when we looked at the studies that have been
done, we found that many of these questions are unsettled and we have
much less information than we should, considering how long this
[fluoridation] has been going on. I think that's why fluoridation is
still being challenged so many years after it began, In the face of
ignorance, controversy is rampant."

More excerpts here:

http://www.fluorideaction.net/sc.am.jan.2008.html
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2008 14:07 GMT
> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
> give a detailed summary of all the major points?  I thank you and the
> unborn millions thank you.  :-)

    Just found the article buried on my desk.  I just skimmed it--the main
points seem to be that fluoride has become so ubiquitous in the
environment that the risk of ingesting a large amount has increased.
The dental osteogenic, neurologic and endocrine effects of overdose are
discussed;  statistics are given for decrease in caries rates in both
countries that do and do not fluoridate.  The politics are also
discussed.  At first glance it looks like a fairly balanced article.
I'll read it when I get the chance and comment further.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Amatus Cremona - 22 Jan 2008 14:28 GMT
<WARNING:  Anecdotal argument follows>

I think a valid argument can be made for reducing FL in regions where the
tap water is fluoridated.  However, in areas which rely on well water, I
still see a huge increase in caries rates.  Apparently, the FL in bottled
water (remember that most bottled water is just tap water from some other
city), canned soups, frozen vegetables, etc, is not enough to keep the
caries rates low in these areas.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
>> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Steve
Matt - 22 Jan 2008 15:12 GMT
> <WARNING:  Anecdotal argument follows>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> city), canned soups, frozen vegetables, etc, is not enough to keep the
> caries rates low in these areas.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/epa/nrc/fluoridation.html

> 9) The lack of signficant benefit from fluoridation not examined. The assumption that all is well with water fluoriation because the NRC panel didn't examine this practice is highly misleading. Had the panel members been required to look at the benefits they would have been shocked on how poor the science is that supports this practice. According to the UK York Review (2000) there is not one grade A study. They might also have been surprised to find that most European countries do not fluoridate their water but according to WHO figures their children's teeth are just as good if not better than ours. Moreover, the largest NIDR study of tooth decay in the US could find very little difference in the permanent teeth of children who had lived all their lives in fluoridated compared to non-fluoridated communities (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). To this we can add the fact that US cities which have been fluoridating for years are reporting a dental crisis. This reflects the fact that
there is a much stronger relation between tooth decay and standard of living than one can ever find with ingested fluoride.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2008 15:27 GMT
>> <WARNING:  Anecdotal argument follows>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> there is a much stronger relation between tooth decay and standard of
> living than one can ever find with ingested fluoride.

    I suspect there are stronger associations with culture and dietary
practices than either.  I have a large immigrant population.  Those
coming from south Asia and western Africa pretty uniformly have little
or no caries when they first come here.  (Curiously, they have very
severe and pervasive periodontal disease, and observationally I could
not say their oral hygiene could account for the low caries rate).
    After a few years of eating our good American food, they start to get
decay.
    Most children I see who are born and raised here (in our fluoridated
area) remain caries-free at least into adolescence.  This was certainly
not true of my contemporaries growing up.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

nyscof - 22 Jan 2008 15:46 GMT
Dentist Twins

I wonder how many Medicaid patients you see.  If you are seeing mostly
children with private insurance or whose parents can afford out-of-
pocket payments, , you may be seeing children without decay because
they have higher  socioieconomic status which is linked to better
dental health. In fact, they could even afford to avoid their
fluoridated tap water and drink bottled instead.

In West Virginia, fluoridated for decades, teeth are rotting and
bellies are bulging because of inability to afford or disinterest in
consuming nutritious food.

CHARLESTON -- Rotting teeth and bulging stomachs tell Sen. Ron
Stollings that something is terribly wrong with the West Virginia
diet.

http://www.register-herald.com/local/local_story_020232336.html

On Jan 22, 10:27 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
> >> <WARNING:  Anecdotal argument follows>
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> Brooklyn, NY
> 718-258-5001
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2008 16:52 GMT
> Dentist Twins
>
> I wonder how many Medicaid patients you see.

    Not many

 If you are seeing mostly
> children with private insurance or whose parents can afford out-of-
> pocket payments, , you may be seeing children without decay because
> they have higher  socioieconomic status which is linked to better
> dental health. In fact, they could even afford to avoid their
> fluoridated tap water and drink bottled instead.

    My practice indeed is a mix of working and middle class.  Some have
private insurance or union welfare fund benefits.
    Ironically, the largest number of kids with decay I see are those who
try to avoid tap water, and those with special dietary needs. These
would include many health-conscious families who wish to avoid fluoride
specifically, though to be honest fluoride is so ubiquitous that I
question whether this could account for the increased caries rate I
observe.  I also see high caries rate among the children of the large
Orthodox Jewish population in the area.  They are forbidden by edict
from drinking unfiltered tap water in NYC.
    I have no question but that you are correct about poverty and tooth
decay--as poverty is positively correlated with just about any illness
you can name.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Matt - 23 Jan 2008 15:52 GMT
> I also see high caries rate among the children of the large
> Orthodox Jewish population in the area.  They are forbidden by edict
> from drinking unfiltered tap water in NYC.

What is their resolution to the problem?

Do they drink filtered tap water?  If so, what type of filtration do
they use?
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Jan 2008 22:09 GMT
>> I also see high caries rate among the children of the large Orthodox
>> Jewish population in the area.  They are forbidden by edict from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Do they drink filtered tap water?  If so, what type of filtration do
> they use?

    I'm not certain.  If the copepods are bigger than grains of sand, it
would seem that any reasonable filter would remove them.  I have no idea
if the approved filters remove fluoride.  I do have some patients coming
in with their own bottled water.

Steve
Matt - 24 Jan 2008 02:41 GMT
>>> I also see high caries rate among the children of the large Orthodox
>>> Jewish population in the area.  They are forbidden by edict from
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> would seem that any reasonable filter would remove them.  I have no idea
> if the approved filters remove fluoride.  

It is easy to remove copepods and much harder to remove fluoride, so it
is likely that few of them are using a technique that removes fluoride.

The best way to remove fluoride and nearly everything else is by
distillation.  Tabletop distillers can make 4 gal/day and can be found
on ebay and elsewhere for around $100.  Reverse osmosis filtration
removes most but not all fluoride.  Activated alumina filters remove
fluoride, but one is not likely to find them locally unless the local
water has too much fluoride naturally.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/a/removefluoride.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_alumina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/fluoroapatite.fact.sheet.01.pdf
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 24 Jan 2008 18:22 GMT
> It is easy to remove copepods and much harder to remove fluoride, so it
> is likely that few of them are using a technique that removes fluoride.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
> http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/fluoroapatite.fact.sheet.01.pdf

Thanks for these.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

The Webby - 24 Jan 2008 00:12 GMT
[cut]

> I also see high caries rate among the children of the large
> Orthodox Jewish population in the area.  They are forbidden by edict
> from drinking unfiltered tap water in NYC.
[cut]

Here is a link for some additional insight:

http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single/2394/

Webby
Matt - 08 Feb 2008 13:12 GMT
>     Ironically, the largest number of kids with decay I see are those
> who try to avoid tap water, and those with special dietary needs. These
> would include many health-conscious families who wish to avoid fluoride
> specifically,

Not clear whether you should report your result to Broffitt et al:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17899900?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn
trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

-----------------------------------------------------------
> 1: J Public Health Dent. 2007 Summer;67(3):151-8.Click here to read Links
>     An investigation of bottled water use and caries in the mixed dentition.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>     OBJECTIVES: Bottled water consumption in the United States has greatly increased in the past decade. Because the majority of commercial bottled water is low in fluoride, there is the potential for an increase in dental caries. In these secondary data analyses, associations between bottled water use and dental caries were explored. METHODS: Subjects (n = 413) are in the Iowa Fluoride Study, which included dental examinations of the primary (approximately aged 5) and early erupting permanent (approximately aged 9) dentitions by trained dentist examiners. Permanent tooth caries and primary second molar increments were related to bottled water use using logistic and negative binomial regression models. All models were adjusted for age and the frequency of toothbrushing. RESULTS: Bottled water use in this cohort was fairly limited (approximately 10 percent). While bottled water users had significantly lower fluoride intakes, especially fluoride from water, there were no sign
ificant differences found in either permanent tooth caries (P = 0.20 and 0.91 for prevalence and D(2+)FS, respectively) or primary second molar caries (P = 0.94 and 0.74 for incidence and d(2+)fs increment, respectively). Results for smooth surfaces differed somewhat from those for pit and fissure surfaces, but neither showed significant differences related to bottled water use. CONCLUSION: While bottled water users had significantly lower fluoride intakes, this study found no conclusive evidence of an association with increased caries. Further study is warranted, preferably using studies designed specifically to address this research question.

>     PMID: 17899900 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
-----------------------------------------------------------
See also: http://www.fluoridealert.org/2007research/08.html

> though to be honest fluoride is so ubiquitous that I
> question whether this could account for the increased caries rate I
> observe.
Steven Bornfeld - 08 Feb 2008 14:08 GMT
>>     Ironically, the largest number of kids with decay I see are those
>> who try to avoid tap water, and those with special dietary needs.
>> These would include many health-conscious families who wish to avoid
>> fluoride specifically,
>
> Not clear whether you should report your result to Broffitt et al:

    I'm sure my impression is too anecdotal to be meaningful.  I only hear
about it when (usually the mother) protests that the kids eat no sweets
and brush 14 times a day, so they CAN'T be getting cavities.  With the
Orthodox children with high caries rate, there are enough dietary
differences that it would be difficult to develop any kind of control.
    However, it does point out the possible information to be gleaned by
keeping dietary information on our patients.

Thanks,
Steve

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17899900?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn
trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>> though to be honest fluoride is so ubiquitous that I question whether
>> this could account for the increased caries rate I observe.
The Webby - 08 Feb 2008 16:22 GMT
[clip]

>     However, it does point out the possible information to be gleaned by
> keeping dietary information on our patients.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve

Any severe loss of "normal" jaw function creates incredible "dietary
challenges" and in turn, incredible "dental health challenges".  
Fluoride, as a tool for dental health, is an important matter to
patients who live decades upon decades with these challenges.  

In *my* case, my mandible does not move to the right or left, nor does
it move forward or backward.  The movement up and down is limited to an
extremely short distance which averages about 8-10 mm at best (referred
to as a hinge opening).  With fatigue and pain being a permanent
component of this significant disability, there are times when this
degree of maximum function is unattainable.

The purpose of this reply within the thread is to point out that as much
as "dentistry" recognizes the value of fluoride in decay prevention to
the masses, "dentistry" is not going to site examples such as mine
because the percentage of people with such special needs are too few to
mention.  However, if fluoride is an important tool for the masses, it
is an especially important tool to the rare population with extremely
special needs.  

Back to the point about keeping dietary information on patients; grazing
is not an uncommon dietary style and it happens for many, many reasons.  
So the question I have is this:  what advice to you give the "grazers by
choice" or "grazers with little choice"?

FYI: I was *officially* excused from any personal obligation to maintain
a "kosher diet" because of my disability.  My case was the first brought
to the rabbis attention back in the mid 1990s.  (I *must* graze in a
manner that puts my medical health above any religious "law" that if
followed would compromise my health.  That is also the Law.)

Webby

[clip]
Matt - 08 Feb 2008 23:16 GMT
>>>     Ironically, the largest number of kids with decay I see are those
>>> who try to avoid tap water, and those with special dietary needs.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> dietary differences that it would be difficult to develop any kind of
> control.

If there is general problem with caries among the Orthodox, that in
itself would be an important finding.  I wouldn't think it would be a
very hard question to answer.  It might be as simple as sending a
finely-crafted questionnaire to fifty dentists who have a lot of
Orthodox patients.

If there were a correlation, that would present a further research
opportunity.  I would list the possible fluoride and non-fluoride
explanations of the historical decline in caries and try to identify
those that did not affect the Orthodox.  For instance, if it happened
that the general historical caries decline went along with vitamin
supplementation in breakfast cereals, and it were true that the Orthodox
do not eat such cereals and they have a lot of caries, that finding
would seem to be important.

Note that there seems to be strong evidence that water fluoridation
_does not_ account for much if any of the general historical caries
decline.  And note again that the NYC Orthodox are drinking
grossly-filtered but not necessarily fluoride-free water.

>     However, it does point out the possible information to be gleaned by
> keeping dietary information on our patients.

Yes, there ought to be a way to gather such information reliably on a
massive scale through dentists---dentists are in a position to gather
that information relatively cheaply.  I use the word 'reliably' because
it would seem that people are on average biased regarding
fluoride---dentists and the public having suffered so many years of
indoctrination and even intimidation that apparently is based on very
little science.

> Thanks,
> Steve

I thank you for thanking me.
:-)

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17899900?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEn
trez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 

>> CONCLUSION: While bottled
>> water users had significantly lower fluoride intakes, this study found
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> See also: http://www.fluoridealert.org/2007research/08.html
Matt - 22 Jan 2008 18:09 GMT
A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?

> Dentist Twins
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>> Brooklyn, NY
>> 718-258-5001
Amatus Cremona - 22 Jan 2008 18:13 GMT
But,,,,,,,,,,,, if you are following the thread, bottom posting makes it
take much longer to read a thread and find the pertinent reply.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>>> Brooklyn, NY
>>> 718-258-5001
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2008 18:29 GMT
> But,,,,,,,,,,,, if you are following the thread, bottom posting makes it
How about middle-posting?
> take much longer to read a thread and find the pertinent reply.

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Matt - 22 Jan 2008 19:04 GMT
> How about middle-posting?

Good man.  And you use Thunderbird.  For now, I'll overlook your
apparent mild bias toward water fluoridation.  :-)
The Webby - 22 Jan 2008 18:20 GMT
> A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet and in e-mail?

[cut the rest]

How much content do you prefer to leave behind?
Matt - 22 Jan 2008 18:24 GMT
>> A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> How much content do you prefer to leave behind?

When I am trying to indicate the problems associated with top-posting, I
am apt to quote the whole mess.
The Webby - 22 Jan 2008 18:34 GMT
> >> A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
> >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> When I am trying to indicate the problems associated with top-posting, I
> am apt to quote the whole mess.

I see. Thanks.
Dartos - 22 Jan 2008 22:08 GMT
Completely disagree (unless the previous post is clipped to
a few sentences so you don't have to scroll down forever and
ever).

:-)
D

> A: Because it ruins the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>>>
>>> Steve
nyscof - 22 Jan 2008 15:48 GMT
Also, if you want to look at the archives, you'll find we told you
first about the studies that are reported in the Scientific American
article.  But everyone here seems to make a game of shooting the
messenger. Now we, instead of you, can say I told you so.

NYSCOF
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2008 16:59 GMT
> Also, if you want to look at the archives, you'll find we told you
> first about the studies that are reported in the Scientific American
> article.  But everyone here seems to make a game of shooting the
> messenger. Now we, instead of you, can say I told you so.
>
> NYSCOF

    Nobody's shooting anyone here.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Fran L - 23 Jan 2008 15:18 GMT
I remember hearing about these little sea creatures in NYC water. If
they're a millimeter long as this article says, they should be visible,
seems I'll eventually see one. I find the correlation that you've
observed very interesting, Steve. Here's the article I just looked
up..sounds gross!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/01/nyregion/01water.html?ex=1401422400&en=da0367b
358aeb5b1&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

Matt - 23 Jan 2008 16:09 GMT
> I remember hearing about these little sea creatures in NYC water.

NYC's water comes from upstate watersheds.  There are no sea creatures
 in NYC tap water.  They are having a problem with freshwater copepods.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copepod

> If
> they're a millimeter long as this article says, they should be visible,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/01/nyregion/01water.html?ex=1401422400&en=da0367b
358aeb5b1&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND
Fran L - 23 Jan 2008 19:45 GMT
Sorry for the wrong word, Matt...the article said creatures. Not sea.
Creepy little things in any case when I think I'm drinking them. I
actually have one friend who is of the Satmar sect and will ask him what
type of filter they use.
Matt - 23 Jan 2008 20:53 GMT
> Sorry for the wrong word, Matt...the article said creatures. Not sea.
> Creepy little things in any case when I think I'm drinking them.

Yeah, 1 mm long maybe ... ugh (thanks for the NYT article) ... my little
city runs the water through a deep bed of sand.  I could be wrong, but I
don't think anything big enough to have legs or antennae makes it through.

> I
> actually have one friend who is of the Satmar sect and will ask him what
> type of filter they use.

Thanks---that will be interesting.
Fran L - 23 Jan 2008 21:48 GMT
Matt and whoever else is reading this, I called my friend but he was at
work so I don't know what he uses. He said he gets them in the hardware
or plumbing supply store but it is not Brita or Pur. He said the holes
are really tiny so the copecods can't pass through. He also said some
people just use 2 cloths over the faucet. On Google I found some brands
that filter out these little guys.
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Jan 2008 22:16 GMT
> Matt and whoever else is reading this, I called my friend but he was at
> work so I don't know what he uses. He said he gets them in the hardware
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Fran! :-)

Steve
Fran L - 23 Jan 2008 22:55 GMT
You're welcome, excuse my typo...copecods, LOL..."You're sure to fall in
love with old Cape Cod"

One question...if the patient brings their own water, how do you spray
while working if not using the dental spray thing with your own water. A
watergun? :-)
Steven Bornfeld - 24 Jan 2008 01:05 GMT
> You're welcome, excuse my typo...copecods, LOL..."You're sure to fall in
> love with old Cape Cod"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shhhh...I keep it to a minimum and hope they don't notice if I have to.
 I don't have an independent water supply to my unit...

Steve
Dartos - 24 Jan 2008 14:38 GMT
I converted to individual bottles on each unit several years ago.
Easy to flush and disinfect the lines that way.  I could put just
about any liquid in them at any time, but tap water seems to be
the most logical <G>.

D

> Shhhh...I keep it to a minimum and hope they don't notice if I have to.
>  I don't have an independent water supply to my unit...
>
> Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 24 Jan 2008 18:32 GMT
> I converted to individual bottles on each unit several years ago.
> Easy to flush and disinfect the lines that way.  I could put just
> about any liquid in them at any time, but tap water seems to be
> the most logical <G>.
>
> D

    How big a project is this to do?  Are there systems you can install
yourself without needing a plumber?

Steve

>> Shhhh...I keep it to a minimum and hope they don't notice if I have
>> to.  I don't have an independent water supply to my unit...
>>
>> Steve

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Dartos - 24 Jan 2008 19:17 GMT
I had the equipment company install them.  It wasn't very expensive
(as far as dental stuff goes <G>).

It is a heavy duty 1L bottle on a bracket under the counter with
two plastic lines attached (air pressure in and water coming out
I think).

Looks pretty simple for a do-it-yourselfer.

D

>> I converted to individual bottles on each unit several years ago.
>> Easy to flush and disinfect the lines that way.  I could put just
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>>
>>> Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 24 Jan 2008 20:44 GMT
> I had the equipment company install them.  It wasn't very expensive
> (as far as dental stuff goes <G>).
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> D

    Thanks!

Steve

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718-258-5001

Amatus Cremona - 28 Jan 2008 19:59 GMT
It is dirt easy to install yourself.

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/

Amatus

/

>
> I had the equipment company install them.  It wasn't very expensive
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 Jan 2008 20:20 GMT
> It is dirt easy to install yourself.

Can you recommend a system?

Steve

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718-258-5001

Amatus Cremona - 28 Jan 2008 22:53 GMT
Adec makes a good system.  American Dental makes a nice "generic" one.
American Dental sends out those free catalogs.

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Amatus

/

>> It is dirt easy to install yourself.
>
> Can you recommend a system?
>
> Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 28 Jan 2008 23:43 GMT
> Adec makes a good system.  American Dental makes a nice "generic" one.
> American Dental sends out those free catalogs.

    Yes, I'm on their mailing list.  I'll take a look.

Thanks,
Steve

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Newbie@bix.nex - 24 Jan 2008 23:22 GMT
Is it possible request a nice single malt ?

>I converted to individual bottles on each unit several years ago.
>Easy to flush and disinfect the lines that way.  I could put just
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> Steve
Dartos - 28 Jan 2008 17:51 GMT
Haven't tried it this way, but it would be possible.

<VBG>
D

> Is it possible request a nice single malt ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>>
>>>Steve
Newbie@bix.nex - 29 Jan 2008 01:33 GMT
Am sure that you could eliminate the cuspidor as
expectoration would not be considered.  <hehe>

>Haven't tried it this way, but it would be possible.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>>>
>>>>Steve
Dartos - 29 Jan 2008 15:41 GMT
> Am sure that you could eliminate the cuspidor as
> expectoration would not be considered.  <hehe>

Don't have one anyway.

D
Newbie@bix.nex - 30 Jan 2008 02:33 GMT
>> Am sure that you could eliminate the cuspidor as
>> expectoration would not be considered.  <hehe>
>
>Don't have one anyway.
>
>D

Me neither, hate those nasty things.
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Jan 2008 22:07 GMT
> Sorry for the wrong word, Matt...the article said creatures. Not sea.
> Creepy little things in any case when I think I'm drinking them. I
> actually have one friend who is of the Satmar sect and will ask him what
> type of filter they use.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This may be an occasional thing.  Problem is, once the Grand Rabbi
makes a decision like this, what does it take to rescind the edict?
    Some copepod fra diavolo?

Steve
Robert - 23 Jan 2008 18:12 GMT
> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
> give a detailed summary of all the major points?  I thank you and the
> unborn millions thank you.  :-)

The problem is that once science comes up with a "good thing", like flouride
in limited amounts for tooth decay, companies go crazy and start adding it
to everything. So you get the absolutely surreal concept of adding flouride
to soda to try to prevent the tooth decay that the soda is causing.

Now that researchers seem to be confirming the benefits of Omega-3 Fatty
Acids, you will see companies adding it to everything, including Whoppers
and Big Macs :)  Eventually they'll wonder why some people are showing signs
of having too much Omega-3 Fatty Acids.
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Jan 2008 22:15 GMT
>> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
>> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> and Big Macs :)  Eventually they'll wonder why some people are showing signs
> of having too much Omega-3 Fatty Acids.

    The problem with fluoride is that it's in the environment, and most of
the salts are soluble.  This means that it can enter the environment
inadvertently, and then the careful titration of the tap water
concentration becomes meaningless.
    Children under 4 or 5 are pretty ineffective at rinsing out toothpaste,
which is on the order of 1000 times the fluoride concentration of
fluoridated water, so it's easy for them to get too much fluoride.

Steve
Matt - 24 Jan 2008 06:07 GMT
>> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
>> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The problem is that once science comes up with a "good thing", like flouride
> in limited amounts for tooth decay,

The blame for that particular "good thing" will go not to science, but
to those who shouted down science.
Steven Bornfeld - 25 Jan 2008 01:33 GMT
> Scientific American provides an intro to the article for free, but the
> whole article is not online.  Could somebody with access to the article
> give a detailed summary of all the major points?  I thank you and the
> unborn millions thank you.  :-)

    I should state my own bias, which is that Scientific American overall
seems somewhat "dumbed down" recently compared to what it was fairly
recently (I haven't been a regular reader in several years, but have
subscribed on and off since the mid-1960s.
    Having said that, I think this article gives an excellent overview of
the current state of thinking about fluoride and fluoridation.
    The major points are that while the consensus is that fluoride
historically has made a major impact on the incidence of tooth decay.
However, fluoride has become so ubiquitous in the environment that
current guidelines for fluoridation and supplementation may need
re-evaluation.  There are many sources of fluoride in the environment,
and the sum total of these sources is difficult to determine, but is
likely to exceed what were considered safe levels in the past.  As a
result of multiple sources of fluoride in the environment, one no longer
sees the caries reduction from water fluoridation that were seen in the
past.
    The mechanisms by which fluoride reduces tooth decay are summarized.
The toxicology is not (with the exception of fluorosis and skeletal
effects), but otherpossible toxic effects are reviewed--osteosarcoma,
neurologic and endocrine (thyroid) effects.  The evidence for these is
spottier, but given the increasing chances that significant populations
are receiving more than the recommended dose, these need to be looked
into further.

    I see little or nothing to criticize in this article--I think it's a
good overview of the issues for a general reading audience.

Steve
Matt - 25 Jan 2008 05:15 GMT
Thanks for your summary.

>     The mechanisms by which fluoride reduces tooth decay are summarized.

Could you mention those mechanisms as described in the article?
Steven Bornfeld - 26 Jan 2008 02:36 GMT
> Thanks for your summary.
>
>>     The mechanisms by which fluoride reduces tooth decay are summarized.
>
> Could you mention those mechanisms as described in the article?

"The topical application of fluoride to the teeth has two effects.
First, the fluoride ions replace some of the hydroxyl groups in the
hydroxylapatite molecules, crating fluorapatite crystals that are
slightly more resistant to the enamel-dissolving acid excreted by the
bacteria.  Second, the fluoride on the surface of teeth serves as a
catalyst that enhances the deposition of calcium and phosphate, thus
remineralizing damaged enamel and combating decay."

Steve
Matt - 26 Jan 2008 03:34 GMT
>> Thanks for your summary.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Steve

Is there no mention of an antimicrobial effect?
Steven Bornfeld - 26 Jan 2008 03:46 GMT
>>> Thanks for your summary.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Is there no mention of an antimicrobial effect?

    No there isn't.

Steve
Matt - 26 Jan 2008 06:43 GMT
>>>> Thanks for your summary.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Steve

Thanks.  I'm trying not to pester you but ...

Does it mention any direct positive effects of ingesting fluoride?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 26 Jan 2008 14:00 GMT
> Thanks.  I'm trying not to pester you but ...
>
> Does it mention any direct positive effects of ingesting fluoride?

    I'll have to skim it on that.  Recent research indicates that the
primary mode of action in preventing caries is topical, but that
evidence is fairly thin.  Certainly it could account for the caries
reductions claimed in fluoride toothpastes; whether it could account for
the significant caries reductions claimed for water fluoridation (.6-1.0
ppm) is tougher to believe.
   
    I'll skim the article again and get back to you.

Steve

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718-258-5001

 
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