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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2007The lowdown on getting work done at USC Dental School
Bottom line: avoid it if you can. (And from my experience there and what I have heard, I would not even consider going to rival UCLA for dental work!) Here's the lowdown: If you are totally broke and cannot afford a dentist and need some work like a filling or something minor, then by all means go to the dental school, it's better than waiting and having your tooth get worse. BUT, if you can somehow, some way come up with a bit more money, please go to a decent private dentist. Why? Because at the dental school, every appointment will be 3-4 hours. The private dentist can get you in and out of there for the same work in an hour or less, but you will spend 3-4 hours at the dental school. They spend so much time on bureaucratic nonsense and they are of course slower at their work than a licensed dentist, it just takes a lot of time. Maybe okay for the unemployed but if you have a life with things to do, it is a waste of your time. Secondly, at USC Dental School, my experience has been that they do not offer you appointments that are convenient. Once they get you in the system, they dictate to you when you have to come, and there is very little or no input from you. You may have Thursdays and Fridays off and prefer afternoons, and say, Please schedule me on Thur or Fri afternoon, and they will turn around and give you a Tue appointment at 8am and you really don't have much choice. Of course, they don't tell you this until you are already committed to the program. Also, you might think that the professors should be there hovering over you, to make sure the student dentist does everything right, but the fact is, they don't. Sometimes the prof is not around until the end of the procedure. I don't know about you, but that makes me very nervous! I want to know that the student is doing it right in the beginning, not just the end! I think there should be much more supervision! The professors also have almost no contact with you at all, even if you request it, they begrudgingly give you a minute or two. Also, I have serious question about the quality of some of the work I have had done. The prof said it was just fine, but it doesn't seem so fine to me. (crowns) While you can save a lot of money by doing it at the dental school, (depending on what work and how much work you get done), to me, it's not worth it, really, and in the future I would rather go to a regular dentist if I can afford it. (At the time I had my work done I felt I could not afford it, and that is the only reason I went to USC dental school.) Let me say this, though: Before, there was a Graduate Student Program there called AEGD. That program was 100% better than the undergrad program. With AEGD I got very good work, they worked around my schedule, and I felt it was well worth the money and time. However they ended that program and forced me into undergrad dental school to finish my work. The undergraduate program on the other hand, seems very slipshod. I tried to consult with my student's dept. head about some things and he has refused to even return my calls. I finally gave up. But now I plan to go over his head. For one thing, they overcharged me about $1000 more than was given on my treatment plan, and without ever asking me or even telling me. When I got the itemized charges I was shocked that they had charged me way more than they told me they were going to charge me. This is no doubt going to be a big hassle, fighting them over this for a refund. But I will take them to small claims court if I have to. So all in all, I just think the program at USC Dental School is not worth the time and trouble and I have doubts about the quality as well. My main problem with them is their lack of supervision and communication on the part of instructors. > Bottom line: avoid it if you can. (And from my experience there and > what I have heard, I would not even consider going to rival UCLA for > dental work!) You weren't the one that they accidentally set on fire, were you? ;-) Oh no, that was at a different school. ;-) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=461514 Welcome to dental school dentistry. Some of the things you mentioned are a fact of life if you are going to a teaching institution for dental work. If you have the time but not the dime, it can be a good place for having some work done. It will depend on the student you get, what is done, the instructors, the school, etc of course. I found the dental lab at the university I went to did some excellent work. It's not for everyone, but you can receive some nice quality work by dental students, and it's all a part of the educational experience. If no one were to have work done there, how would dentists learn how to do dentistry? You might visit the Studentdoctor forum, and open a dialogue there to get some direct feedback from the dental students and faculty if you wish. Zzzdentist www.dentalminds.com > Bottom line: avoid it if you can. (And from my experience there and > what I have heard, I would not even consider going to rival UCLA for [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > well. My main problem with them is their lack of supervision and > communication on the part of instructors. It is America........You get what you paid for........The life of a dental student is tough......Especially USC dental school......Expensive private school...... >It is America........You get what you paid for........The life of a >dental student is tough......Especially USC dental >school......Expensive private school...... Yes, you get what you pay for. I think it's good that people know what they are going to get for what they pay, though. My experience with the dental school was that they make it sound like the prof is going to be over-seeing everything, but that is not the case. I think they SHOULD oversee it, but they don't really do enough of that in my opinion. Also, before I signed on to the dental school I assumed there would be sufficient consultations with instructors. That also was not the case. Spending more time in the chair is one thing; having sub-standard work done because of a lack of supervision, well that is something else. > On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:16:32 -0000, "ahuangd...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Spending more time in the chair is one thing; having sub-standard work > done because of a lack of supervision, well that is something else. I agree with you.........But look around our education system. Can you really said most teachers goes into teaching because they enjoy teaching? If they do......How long does it take before they stop enjoying their job. Dental school is no different than your local independent school district.......Regardless if it public or private...... Now remember.....Most teaching dentist sign up to teach......not to watch out for the patients.......Sad....but it is true.....on the consent form it normally stated patient are there for the benefit for the student's educational purpose. Did you know that when you sign up? >> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:16:32 -0000, "ahuangd...@gmail.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > consent form it normally stated patient are there for the benefit for > the student's educational purpose. Did you know that when you sign up? As a former faculty member at NYUCD, I think I can say that while the primary purpose of the institution is the production of dentists, that process includes training students to treat patients ethically, respectfully and with the highest quality care available. Back in the dark ages of my dental school career there was no disclaimer about patients being there for the benefit of the student; this was understood. OTOH, the school could not operate without patients, and we recognized (we certainly recognized as students, esp. in those departments in which it was tough to find patients to satisfy our graduation requirements) that we needed them. Just like in the real world, there are other dentists they can go to. So while it is true that dental treatment tends to proceed far more slowly than in a private practice setting, the overall quality of treatment was generally very good indeed. As far as teaching, I was a part-timer--two days a week. I did it for about 2 1/2 years, and enjoyed it immensely. I quit because I couldn't afford to give the time anymore. Steve  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 On Nov 1, 9:04 am, Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> wrote: > ahuangd...@gmail.com wrote: > >> On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:16:32 -0000, "ahuangd...@gmail.com" [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Dr. Bornfield: True.......I make a generalized assumption. And you are in NYC.....where there are more dental schools than.....Oklahoma............. > Dr. Bornfield: > True.......I make a generalized assumption. And you are > in NYC.....where there are more dental schools > than.....Oklahoma............. Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain... Steve On Nov 2, 10:45 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > ahuangd...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve You can get good work at a dental school. But the cost is time. You can also get bad work done at the dental school if you get stuck with the wrong student dentist. Especially the one that cheats their way through dental school, sleeps with the instructors and gets others to pass tests for them and do their projects. You also can get outdated work done by 10 years from what is practiced outside in the real world. The instructors are usually either recent graduates with zero real life experience, or senior citizen dentists who have stopped learning new things and have become overly cautious over the years about everything. Sometimes I'd rather have the senior guys but if you are looking for cosmetics and veneer work, or heroics to save a tooth good luck. Also with the dental school you have a lot of politics. For example the school may get some materials donated or at a bulk price from company A, the product themselves suck but the school is obliged to use these products, or the head of the department gets a deal on something if he gets the school to use company A. Company A then takes endorsements about one of their products and runs to other dentists to try and sell more telling them the dental school is using their stuff and professor so and so is endorsing their product. etc..... Yes you have to work around the student's schedule. The student can't get you in for a 1 hour appointment, at 4pm. clinic closes at 5pm no instructor will give him a start check or he has classes the day you want to be seen. As far as checks the school tests the students to make sure they are competent before sending them to work on patients and they give what they feel is appropriate supervision. You may not think so because of the student that you have working on you is nervous etc... or you do not know what he/she has learned to this point and already proved their competence to the school to provide standard of care work=government dental work. They continue to test the student until they feel he she can pass the boards with flying colours and they put the student through a lot more critique and undue stress to see how they can cope in a busy dental office managed by HMO supportive management companies or clinics. Of course all this goes down the tubes if the dental student is the one that cheated their way through school, and if that is the case you are really screwed. Fact is lots of dentists fall through the cracks and are practising out there who are incompetent and should not be. That is the same risk as you going outside to private dentist without doing your research. At least in private practice you may be able to look up if the dentist you are seeing has had any discipline actions by the dental board. With a dental Student good luck getting that info from the school. It's all a luck of the draw but if you did not have any money and needed dental work by all means, the school is where you should seek help. But if you can afford it which i believe anyone can(anyone can afford any one thing during their lifetime it is just a matter of priorities, but no one can afford everything.) then seek a private dentist with good reputation. I went to USC and I have seen all of this in action. My friend is a terrific dentist (I only trust him to work on me) and he got into some of the politics there and as a result it cost him an extra year of tuition and an extra year of dental school. Meanwhile the biggest cheater in the class graduated on time with everyone else doing her work for her, she got caught cheating during the dental board exam and managed to buy her way out and is currently in private practice. If I gave her name to a malpractice lawyer, I can guarantee you this lawyer would retire with clients who are patients of this doctor. It is scary but reality is the patients that she saw in dental school got screwed and the patients she sees now in private practice are getting screwed and there is nothing that can be done. The dental board does not really care unless this becomes a high profile deal. just my 2 cents. > You can get good work at a dental school. But the cost is time. > You can also get bad work done at the dental school if you get stuck [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > really care unless this becomes a high profile deal. > just my 2 cents. Wow Alex--you are more cynical than I--and that's saying something! Steve On Nov 4, 8:41 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Wow Alex--you are more cynical than I--and that's saying something! Actually I think Alexander hit the nail right on the head with more than a few points. I know of one female dental student who slept with the ortho instructor throughout school, and she ended up becoming an orthodontist. I don't know if it applies to all dental schools, but cheating is fairly rampant as well. I guess it's considered a problem with the instructors if they don't change their exams, but with copies of the exams going around before the test, it just becomes a matter of memorization the test answers really. >I don't know if it applies to all dental schools, but cheating is >fairly rampant as well. I guess it's considered a problem with the >instructors if they don't change their exams, but with copies of the >exams going around before the test, it just becomes a matter of >memorization the test answers really. Yikes! Good thing I didn't read this thread before I signed on to the USC Periiodontal and then Grad Student (AEGD) program 2 years ago for all my implants and implant crowns (6). The only reason I did sign on was that I was sold on the AEGD grad student program, which sounded a lot better to me than having undergrads do the work. And indeed, most of the work I had done seems to have been done reasonably well and without TOO many mistakes or problems (just very long sessions mostly). But now that they ended that program and switched me over to an undergrad for my last 2 crowns, I am not very confident or happy with the situation. Let this thread be a warning to people thinking about going to a dental school. Yes, you CAN get good work there! But you can also get stuck with bad students, get overcharged, suffer a lack of supervision, have trouble getting appointments at reasonable hours and available times, spend 3-4 hours each session for treatments that would take less than half that at a private office, and so on (read the thread for more potential risks). I got one email from a woman who had a real NIGHTMARE of a problem with one dental school. But she did not want to post it here for some reason. But trust me, it was a doozy! Personally, if I had it to do all over again, I would have had it done by private dentists. Way too much time was involved, way too many appointments, and now being shoved down to the undergrad dept. against my will... >On Nov 2, 10:45 am, Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwinm...@earthlink.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >really care unless this becomes a high profile deal. >just my 2 cents. Thank you, that provides even more insight into the process! I was lucky that MOST of my work was done by Grad Students, and all but one (of the 4 I had) were pretty good, at that. It wasn't until they ended that program, that now I am stuck in Undergrad hell, and am not sure what I'm going to do. I told the student I wasn't really comfortable with her doing my crowns and so now I'm not sure but what maybe she has dumped me as a patient, which - if so - is okay, as long as I can still get in and get them done by someone else. Basically my position is that since I already paid them $12k up front, when I was assuming I was getting grad students to do all the work, and all they have left to do are 2 crowns now that the grad program has ended, (about 10% of the total work I had done) they should have instructors do the work, not undergrads. I never signed up for undergrad work and wouldn't have! But fighting to get an instructor do do it, may cost me a lot of time and trouble and even then I am not sure I could get them to do it. [cut] > Meanwhile the biggest > cheater in the class graduated on time with everyone else doing her [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > really care unless this becomes a high profile deal. > just my 2 cents. Whether or not this is an accurate description is beside the point. Let's assume, for the moment, that it is accurate. Why is there "nothing that can be done"? Webby Hi Webby, It isn't a case of nothing *can* be done as much as it is a case where nothing is *likely* to be done. One or two dentists stating that another office is mistreating patients will accomplish nothing. It takes months or years of dedicated investigation, record searches, patient interviews, and independent expert evaluation to *prove* such statements as fact. I have my own practice to run. I'm not going to spend hours every week trying to make a case that another dentist is delivering inferior care. Heck, he'd probably have a better chance of winning a slander suit against me than my odds of stopping his practice of dentistry! Placing ill-fitting crowns, crappy fillings, and bad endo aren't enough to get someone's license pulled. The discipline that is meted out by the state board (at least where I practice) is usually related to fraud or having assistants perform procedures that are not allowed under the practice act. It's much easier to prove that assistants are scaling tartar than it is to prove that the dentist does not diagnose periodontal disease. A dentist who gets caught billing for custom fitted crowns when he delivers a pre-fab stainless steel crown will be in trouble long before a dentist that places crowns with open contacts and open margins that fail in a few years. IOWs, is a dentist practicing within the framework of the law, not is the dentist delivering adequate care. Wasn't Al Capone convicted of tax evasion instead of murder and drug trafficing? JMO, D > Whether or not this is an accurate description is beside the point. > Let's assume, for the moment, that it is accurate. > > Why is there "nothing that can be done"? > > Webby > Hi Webby, > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > JMO, > D Steve-- I used to get mailings from New Jersey (now that I think of it, I guess I haven't maintained my inactive license, so that may be why I don't get them anymore) with actions against licenses. There were a significant number of suspensions related to "inferior treatment", but the bulk were fraud cases, practice or prescriptions outside the scope of the license and especially drug abuse. I would guess that in the last two cases most of them are reported by current or (more likely) disgruntled former employees. Steve >> Whether or not this is an accurate description is beside the point. >> Let's assume, for the moment, that it is accurate. >> Why is there "nothing that can be done"? >> >> Webby SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Good to "read" you, Dartos! Thanks for replying to my question. My thoughts are scattered rather than organized when it comes to putting together a response. The entire thread begs for more discussion into various related issues. Divergent thinking is a known side effect of reading usenet posts. ;-) And, I think any other discussion should go into additional new subject lines. Is there any interest, folks? (Thanks to Steve B. for replying as well!) Webby > Hi Webby, > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Webby > As far as teaching, I was a part-timer--two days a week. I did it for >about 2 1/2 years, and enjoyed it immensely. I quit because I couldn't >afford to give the time anymore. > >Steve Couldn't stand the pay cut eh ? BTW, I'm baaaaack... >> As far as teaching, I was a part-timer--two days a week. I did it for >> about 2 1/2 years, and enjoyed it immensely. I quit because I couldn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > BTW, I'm baaaaack... You were missed--esp. by the gals. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> As far as teaching, I was a part-timer--two days a week. I did it for >>> about 2 1/2 years, and enjoyed it immensely. I quit because I couldn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Steve Hmmm, they do say that I am charming in person ;-0 Nice to see you Henry. Signature/ Amatus / > >> As far as teaching, I was a part-timer--two days a week. I did it for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > BTW, I'm baaaaack... >I agree with you.........But look around our education system. Can you >really said most teachers goes into teaching because they enjoy [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >consent form it normally stated patient are there for the benefit for >the student's educational purpose. Did you know that when you sign up? I certainly knew that part of my going there was for the education of the student dentist. However, that does not mean that a patient also assumes - if not outright told, as I was - that there would be plenty of supervision. The fact is, at least in my own experience, that the supervision and overseeing and communication on the part of the instructor is not what it should be. > On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 04:13:31 -0000, "ahuangd...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > overseeing and communication on the part of the instructor is not what > it should be. Yes....You are right. Not all dental school are created equal, not all dental student are the same, and not all teachers in dental school feel the same way as Dr. Bornfeld..........There are real life patients who undergone treatments in private practice still get substandard work........So the system can fail regardless where you get your dental care. My advice is regardless who you see......You must know the dentist/ dental student in a closer level. Built a trust/bond with them........Hopefully they will appreciate the trust you have given them, and treat you right. Best wishes..........I better shut my mouth before I said some thing wrong >> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 04:13:31 -0000, "ahuangd...@gmail.com" >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Best wishes..........I better shut my mouth before I said some thing >wrong Thanks for your comments. You are right - not all Dental School programs are the same and there are many variables. That's why I made it clear that I was specifically talking about my particular experiences with the USC UNDERGRAD system. And still, someone else might be having a much better experience in the same system. (My experience with their now defunct Grad program was much better, though it still had a lack of supervision, imho). However, it is just a warning that these problems mentioned can exist, and I think it is a general indictment of the USC dental school system, that they tend not to be very responsive to patients' requests for consultation with the prof, and aren't very accomodating to the schedule of the patient, either. I have seen this now for two years, with various students and in 3 different departments, so I can say that it seems to be a "general" problem. Not to mention that I believe they overcharged me (charged me for things that were never discussed at all) and I still am going to have to fight with them about that... I have had MORE than my fair share of bad private dentistry, so I totally agree with you on that, as well. The whole dentistry thing can be a crap shoot unfortunately. It's as much an art as a science and there are a lot of clowns out there who just aren't very good at it and even more who just want to make a lot of money regardless of their substandard work. And there are lot of excellent dentists as well. So when you find a good dentist, such as those who frequent this group, stay with them, recommend them, and thank your lucky stars! |
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