Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2007
Who owns the Records?
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me - 25 Sep 2007 22:41 GMT Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
Patient X may sue Dentist A, requests records to get forensic, independent evaluation from Dentist B (without Dentist A talking to Dentist B).
Is Patient X legally entitled to the films and other records so he/she can personally transport to Dentist B? What if Dentist A refuses to release records to patient X? How do attorneys handle this so Dentist A cannot get together with Dentist B and decide on a story?
State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if that is still possible on the Usenet ;-)
Amatus Cremona - 25 Sep 2007 23:38 GMT In the USA,,,,,,,,,,, the dental office owns the media on which the records are stored (paper, film, computer disc, etc), while the patient owns the information. The patient must be allowed access to read the information on written notice. Copies of the record must be given to the patient on written notice, but the dental office is allowed to charge a "reasonable" fee for making the copies. Reasonable is considered the cost of sending a staff person to a copying center---payroll for the time spent plus the cost billed for the copies by the copying center.
Warning--Most dental complaints do not involve enough potential remuneration to be worthwhile taking to court.
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Amatus
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> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if > that is still possible on the Usenet ;-) me - 27 Sep 2007 02:10 GMT "Amatus Cremona" <Nicola@sottovocce.com> wrote in Amatus,
what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500 for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"?
news:y5gKi.606$ua4.278@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:
> In the USA,,,,,,,,,,, the dental office owns the media on which the > records are stored (paper, film, computer disc, etc), while the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Warning--Most dental complaints do not involve enough potential > remuneration to be worthwhile taking to court. Gordon Burditt - 27 Sep 2007 02:51 GMT >what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500 >for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"? I'd say that for PAPER records, "reasonable" is limited by the cost to have an employee pull your records, take them to Kinkos, and have the file copied, then come back, re-file the originals, and mail the copies to you. That includes the cost of employee time, gas, postage, the bill at Kinkos, etc.
I haven't been to Kinkos lately, but what would that come to, maybe $50 plus about $0.10 per page? Maybe more if the paper is odd sizes and you can't use the autofeeder. For small files, it might cost less to have the employee use the doctor's copying machine and save the trip.
For film, same thing, but I guess you have to take X-rays to a photo lab to have copies made.
I have no idea who copies X-rays or how much it costs.
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:56 GMT > >what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500 >>for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"? There's usually something in the Court Rules where you live concerning fees. But as I said just file a Motion for production of documents.
Dentists should have all this on computers these days so it's just a matter of copying it to disk. Then you would have to put it in a form you can present in court and it would require an expert certification to insure that there was no mistake or tampering.
> I'd say that for PAPER records, "reasonable" is limited by the cost > to have an employee pull your records, take them to Kinkos, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > $50 plus about $0.10 per page? Maybe more if the paper is odd sizes > and you can't use the autofeeder. For small files, it might cost
> less to have the employee use the doctor's copying machine and save > the trip. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I have no idea who copies X-rays or how much it costs. sarge137 - 26 Sep 2007 00:12 GMT > Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if > that is still possible on the Usenet ;-) Medical treatment records are the property of the practitioner who provided the care to you, but Arizona will no doubt have a law that gives you access to them.
You'll probably need to make a written request, and if you want copies pay a "reasonable" fee for them. There will also be a time frame within which they have to respond to your request. Let your fingers do the walking in a Google search for the specifics, or call whatever state agency oversees and licenses medical practitioners.
Seems to me that if you're involved in a malpractice action your attorney would be able to advise you on this. I certainly hope you're not trying to undertake such an action without one!
Regards, Sarge
me - 26 Sep 2007 21:33 GMT <snip for brevity's sake>
> Medical treatment records are the property of the practitioner who > provided the care to you, but Arizona will no doubt have a law that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Regards, > Sarge Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most attorneys are not interested in representing the small client, they only want the cream-the slam-dunk big bucks cases (notice I said "most"; there are still some attorneys who operate on principle and justice ;-)) Ever heard of Nolo Press? They have a very good series on representing yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse. Most people don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work. Some, perhaps you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you personally).
Simplicio - 26 Sep 2007 22:22 GMT > Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most attorneys > are not interested in representing the small client, they only want the > cream-the slam-dunk big bucks cases (notice I said "most"; there are > still some attorneys who operate on principle and justice ;-)) Ever > heard of Nolo Press? Yes , actually I filed a lawsuit myself last summer over mercury leaching from my amalgam. I was a "pro-se" litigant. Very interesting experience
They have a very good series on representing
> yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work > I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse. Keep in mind I AM not an attorney , nor am I familiar with Arizonia law, but let me tell you about my experience. Those clever doctors and legislatures in my state added another layer to the justice system called the mandatory arbitration requirement. That means that a lot of the stuff in the Nolo book is not relevant initially because you must first file for mandatory arbitration, which is essential a pricey court system in itself, run by friends of doctors and dentists now called experts who must first "certify" that your lawsuit is valid. Ever heard the phrase, first the verdict, then the trial? Of course if a dentist who is subject to dental board action, won't or is too scared to certify that you have a case of malpractice, the mercury fillings are harmful etc, in my state you can go forward, but NOW if you lose in "real court" you pay all the lawyer fees, in addition to court costs which you pay anyway (like expert witness fees, which in itself is a small fortune).
Most people
> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally > unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other > polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work. Some, perhaps > you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a > good percentage quite incompetent You'll never get as much prompt attention in your life as from the attorney for the individual you are suing for 3 million dollars. Another interesting fact is that if you are a pro-se litigant, judges and attorneys will always be sweating, because they never know if you are going to mouth off or turn around and sue them (normally barred by professional courtesy and liscencing standards for regular attorneys)
I recommend the Nolo book "how to represent yourself in court" as a good start!
me - 27 Sep 2007 02:20 GMT >> Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most >> attorneys are not interested in representing the small client, they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > from my amalgam. I was a "pro-se" litigant. Very interesting > experience I bet and an uproad battle, since there is so much controversy over whether or not those merc filings are detrimental. I would guess they are, but convincing a jury or judge is something else, especially given all the right wing old farts on the bench.
> They have a very good series on representing >> yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the lawyer fees, in addition to court costs which you pay anyway (like > expert witness fees, which in itself is a small fortune). Don't know if they have that in AZ or not. Sounds like another scam to me. What else is new. Nothing for the common man, everything for the rich protected classes, including those above 50K (that is rich to most of us). Ever notice how the deck is stacked in favor of those that get the crooked politicians elected? How did you make out with your merc. case, care to share? Let's do away with the Constitutional oath, since it is such a farce nowadays.
> Most people >> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > barred by professional courtesy and liscencing standards for regular > attorneys) Yeah, they THINK that I am stupid and don't know court procedure. Are they in for a suprise.
> I recommend the Nolo book "how to represent yourself in court" as a > good start! All their books are good, but many outdated, as you pointed out. I will say that is does seem that the guys who visit this group are alot more open than the traditional medical crowd, which was refreshing. This is the first dentist I've been to in quite some time that screwed up. Can't say that about lawyers and doctors.
Simplicio - 27 Sep 2007 04:45 GMT > I bet and an uproad battle, since there is so much controversy over > whether or not those merc filings are detrimental. I would guess they > are, but convincing a jury or judge is something else, especially given > all the right wing old farts on the bench. It is difficult to even get any case to trial, including generic malpractice in my expierence/ observation. If a case goes to trial as some have over amalgam, your are correct, it is extremely difficult to convince every member of a jury beyond all doubt that you were injured by dental Hg or that representations made by dentistry are fraudulent. When i was representing my case I calculated that just to take the case to trial against one party from start to finish would be about $350,000+. (I named 4 in my lawsuit). Remember if you lose in my state you pay the court costs, that is, not lawyers fees but the cost of things like expert testimony, about $10,000 per expert, and if you lose an appeal you pay the cost of the appeal for the other side.
> Don't know if they have that in AZ or not. Sounds like another scam to > me. I know that many states do have arbitration requirements. You are right that although arbitration requirements are billed as preventing frivolous lawsuits they are scams because they impose an expenisve secondary court system on top of the basic one. (That is also why credit card companies like arbitration so much). There was an appeals decision I read for my state during my case where the attorney general had said that making the court process more expensive is not unconstitutional ,because nowhere in the state or US consitution does it state that justice has to be affordable!! In other words the idea is you can avoid arbitration if you are willing to accept "loser pays" rules in the main courts,as long as access to the main courts isn't denied there is no limit on how expensive it can be made.
> What else is new. Nothing for the common man, everything for the > rich protected classes, including those above 50K (that is rich to most > of us). Ever notice how the deck is stacked in favor of those that get > the crooked politicians elected? Try suing a health club, you can't win!
> How did you make out with your merc. > case, care to share? it went on for about six months but the case was dismissed because I tried to bypass the arbitration requirement. I argued that not revealing Hg in fillings was fraud and should not be subject to arbitration. The judge actually was somewhat sympathetic to my case (she actually went to high school in the community where I live) but bought the other sides argument that even general fraud claims should be subject to health arbitration laws. (The truth is that if the judges don't "toe the line" they may not be reappointed). There is also a very light trigger written in the arbitration laws in my state, where any lawsuit that sounds remotely related to a "medical injury" must first go to arbitration, no matter what. Of course it's a farce because an ADA dentist shouldn't be certifying fraud claims against the ADA, which essentially is one of the requirements for arbitration to proceed. If you ever represent yourself, you'll find that some laws as written don't make sense, but they are followed mindlessly by the courts anyway. Looking back I would have argued immediately that arbitration requirements when applied to Hg filling cases are unconstitutional, I also would have added a count of "constructive fraud" but I caught on too late, after the hearing for the motion to dismiss.
No lawyers would help me on a partial basis because they said they feared being sued by a pro-se litigant if they messed up. Going rate for a good lawyer to take the entire case in my area, would have been $300+ per hour, (expert testimony, consultation usually starts at $200+ per hour). I probably ended up doing about $70K of legal work myself.
> Yeah, they THINK that I am stupid and don't know court procedure. Are > they in for a suprise. All that matters is what the judge thinks, and yes the defense will fear the aribitray judge and the sympathy you elicit as someone going it alone against the system. I think it's great to take the initiative to represent yourself in court, if you have a good case, which is not an automatic winner, and what is there to lose? Just try to avoid paying the other sides lawyer fees, court costs.
PS- when i was researching online I remember reading about one state in the Southwest where they have loser pays laws. I'm not sure if it was Arizona. I would definitely thoroughly review your states laws regarding loser pays and arbitration requirements. There is also a lawyer group on google that can give you some legal advice.
Amatus Cremona - 27 Sep 2007 12:13 GMT > Some, perhaps > you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a > good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you > personally). Ok, sorry I responded
me - 28 Sep 2007 01:30 GMT >> Some, perhaps >> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a >> good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you >> personally). > > Ok, sorry I responded The quote your using was a reply to sarge137, not to you (perhaps you're lost in the thread?). But if the shoe fits.... ;-)
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:49 GMT > <snip for brevity's sake> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work > I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse. The problem is that you're not an attorney and will be at a great disadvantage even in small claims since the dentist will be represented by a lawyer. Either his insurance carrier's lawyer or just the fact that he's a corporation and can't represent himself. Always try to settle a case even if it's for a sum lower than you believe you're entitled to. Try to negotiate with his insurance company. btw, you can't sue for malpractice in small claims. Even in the Law division you'll need to get another dentist to sign an affidavit stating you have a case before proceeding.
Most people
> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally > unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other > polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work. Yes, and you're presenting your case to a lawyer. The judge!
Some, perhaps
> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a > good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you > personally). Mike - 30 Sep 2007 14:08 GMT > <snip for brevity's sake> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Regards, >> Sarge I believe all states are covered by Federal HIPAA regulations so access to medical records are the same no matter where you're accessing them. Sorry, I didn't read the original post.
Mike The purposes of the privacy regulations are threefold:
1.. to protect and enhance the rights of consumers by providing them access to their health information and controlling the inappropriate use of that information; 2.. to improve the quality of health care in the U.S. by restoring trust in the health care system among consumers, health care processionals, and the multitude of organizations and individuals committed to delivery of care; and, 3.. to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of health care delivery by creating a national framework for health privacy protection that builds on efforts by states, health systems, other organizations and individuals.
Who is subject to HIPAA?
HIPAA regulations apply to entities that fall into three categories:
1.. Health plans 2.. Health care clearinghouses (who process nonstandard data elements into standard data elements) 3.. Health care providers who electronically transmit any health information in a HIPAA-covered "transaction". These electronic transactions are the ones for which standards have been adopted by DHHS.
Mike - 30 Sep 2007 14:14 GMT >> <snip for brevity's sake> >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > information in a HIPAA-covered "transaction". These electronic > transactions are the ones for which standards have been adopted by DHHS. http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:34 GMT >> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> can personally transport to Dentist B? What if Dentist A refuses to >> release records to patient X? No problem. This is a lawsuit, you just file a Motion for production of documents, if he doesn't turn them over to you within the statutory period you file a Motion to have him held in contempt.
How do attorneys handle this so Dentist A
>> cannot get together with Dentist B and decide on a story? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > attorney would be able to advise you on this. I certainly hope you're > not trying to undertake such an action without one! It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run the quack's legal bill up and cost his malpractise insurance carrier's legal department a lot of time and money. They may decide to settle rather than waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy.
> Regards, > Sarge The Webby - 30 Sep 2007 16:34 GMT I must admit that I am *very curious* about this:
How much **money** are you talking about in damages and also in legal costs?
Webby
> >> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist? > >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Regards, > > Sarge Steven Bornfeld - 30 Sep 2007 17:36 GMT >>> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist? >>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether > they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy. Not necessarily true. Most policies will grant a non-contest clause, which usually comes with a discount in the premium. But I've never seen a mandatory non-contest clause on any of my policies.
Steve
>> Regards, >> Sarge Jobeth66 - 30 Sep 2007 18:02 GMT > It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run the > quack's legal bill up and cost his malpractise insurance carrier's legal > department a lot of time and money. They may decide to settle rather than > waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether > they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy. That's not always true. Most malpractice policies (be it legal, medical, etc.) have a provision whereby the insured may refuse to consent to settlement. There are conditions that go with that, but for someone whose livlihood may be affected by a malpractice payment, the right to refuse to settle does in many cases lies with the policy holder, and the carrier will defer to them. This is not like a standard liability policy where the right to resolve lies with the carrier. Not all professional policies allow for this, or may offer a premium discount if the practitioner opts out of that provision, but you can't go blanket and say that the carrier is going to settle without the practitioner's approval.
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 23:31 GMT >> It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run >> the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > premium discount if the practitioner opts out of that provision, but > you can't go blanket and say that the carrier is going to settle I said when it's for a small sum. A patient can't sue in small claims for malpractice but if you try to sue the patient he may use that as a defence and file a counterclaim. At any rate the dentist's lawyer will have to represent him whether it's because he's a corporation or has liability insurance. My advice to any dentist is that if it's only a matter of a few thousand $ pay the unsatisfied patient. Save yourself a lot of time, aggravation and bad publicity. Remember that Complaints are public documents and may be freely distributed.
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