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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2007

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Who owns the Records?

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me - 25 Sep 2007 22:41 GMT
Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?

Patient X may sue Dentist A, requests records to get forensic,
independent evaluation from Dentist B (without Dentist A talking to
Dentist B).

Is Patient X legally entitled to the films and other records so he/she
can personally transport to Dentist B? What if Dentist A refuses to
release records to patient X? How do attorneys handle this so Dentist A
cannot get together with Dentist B and decide on a story?

State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if
that is still possible on the Usenet ;-)
Amatus Cremona - 25 Sep 2007 23:38 GMT
In the USA,,,,,,,,,,, the dental office owns the media on which the records
are stored (paper, film, computer disc, etc), while the patient owns the
information.  The patient must be allowed access to read the information on
written notice.  Copies of the record must be given to the patient on
written notice, but the dental office is allowed to charge a "reasonable"
fee for making the copies.  Reasonable is considered the cost of sending a
staff person to a copying center---payroll for the time spent plus the cost
billed for the copies by the copying center.

Warning--Most dental complaints do not involve enough potential remuneration
to be worthwhile taking to court.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if
> that is still possible on the Usenet ;-)
me - 27 Sep 2007 02:10 GMT
"Amatus Cremona" <Nicola@sottovocce.com> wrote in
Amatus,

what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500
for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"?

news:y5gKi.606$ua4.278@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net:

> In the USA,,,,,,,,,,, the dental office owns the media on which the
> records are stored (paper, film, computer disc, etc), while the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Warning--Most dental complaints do not involve enough potential
> remuneration to be worthwhile taking to court.
Gordon Burditt - 27 Sep 2007 02:51 GMT
>what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500
>for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"?

I'd say that for PAPER records, "reasonable" is limited by the cost
to have an employee pull your records, take them to Kinkos, and
have the file copied, then come back, re-file the originals,  and
mail the copies to you.  That includes the cost of employee time,
gas, postage, the bill at Kinkos, etc.

I haven't been to Kinkos lately, but what would that come to, maybe
$50 plus about $0.10 per page?  Maybe more if the paper is odd sizes
and you can't use the autofeeder.  For small files, it might cost
less to have the employee use the doctor's copying machine and save
the trip.

For film, same thing, but I guess you have to take X-rays to a photo
lab to have copies made.

I have no idea who copies X-rays or how much it costs.
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:56 GMT
> >what's to prevent the dentist from saying, ok that will cost you $500
>>for copies of your xrays? Who;what defines "reasonable"?

There's usually something in the Court Rules where you live concerning fees.
But as I said just file a Motion for production of documents.

Dentists should have all this on computers these days so it's just a matter
of copying it to disk. Then you would have to put it in a form you can
present in court and it would require an expert certification to insure that
there was no mistake or tampering.

> I'd say that for PAPER records, "reasonable" is limited by the cost
> to have an employee pull your records, take them to Kinkos, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> $50 plus about $0.10 per page?  Maybe more if the paper is odd sizes
> and you can't use the autofeeder.  For small files, it might cost

> less to have the employee use the doctor's copying machine and save
> the trip.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I have no idea who copies X-rays or how much it costs.
sarge137 - 26 Sep 2007 00:12 GMT
> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> State is Arizona. Appreciate any answers to the questions I've asked, if
> that is still possible on the Usenet ;-)

Medical treatment records are the property of the practitioner who
provided the care to you, but Arizona will no doubt have a law that
gives you access to them.

You'll probably need to make a written request, and if you want copies
pay a "reasonable" fee for them.  There will also be a time frame
within which they have to respond to your request. Let your fingers do
the walking in a Google search for the specifics, or call whatever
state agency oversees and licenses medical practitioners.

Seems to me that if you're involved in a malpractice action your
attorney would be able to advise you on this.  I certainly hope you're
not trying to undertake such an action without one!

Regards,
Sarge
me - 26 Sep 2007 21:33 GMT
<snip for brevity's sake>

> Medical treatment records are the property of the practitioner who
> provided the care to you, but Arizona will no doubt have a law that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Regards,
> Sarge

Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most attorneys
are not interested in representing the small client, they only want the
cream-the slam-dunk big bucks cases (notice I said "most"; there are
still some attorneys who operate on principle and justice ;-)) Ever
heard of Nolo Press? They have a very good series on representing
yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work
I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse. Most people
don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally
unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other
polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work. Some, perhaps
you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a
good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you
personally).
Simplicio - 26 Sep 2007 22:22 GMT
> Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most attorneys
> are not interested in representing the small client, they only want the
> cream-the slam-dunk big bucks cases (notice I said "most"; there are
> still some attorneys who operate on principle and justice ;-)) Ever
> heard of Nolo Press?

Yes , actually I filed a lawsuit myself last summer over mercury
leaching
from my amalgam. I was a "pro-se" litigant. Very interesting
experience

They have a very good series on representing
> yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work
> I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse.

Keep in mind I AM not an attorney , nor am I familiar with Arizonia
law, but
let me tell you about my experience. Those clever doctors and
legislatures
in my state added another layer to the justice system called the
mandatory arbitration requirement. That means that a lot of the stuff
in the Nolo book  is not relevant initially because you must first
file for mandatory arbitration, which is essential a pricey court
system in itself, run by friends of doctors and dentists now called
experts who must first "certify" that your lawsuit is valid. Ever
heard the phrase, first the verdict, then the trial? Of course if a
dentist
who is subject to dental board action, won't or is too scared to
certify that
you have a case of malpractice, the mercury fillings are harmful etc,
in my state
you can go forward, but NOW if you lose in "real court" you pay all
the lawyer fees, in addition to court costs which you pay anyway (like
expert witness fees, which in itself is a small fortune).

Most people
> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally
> unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other
> polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work. Some, perhaps
> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a
> good percentage quite incompetent

You'll never get as much prompt attention in your life as from the
attorney for the
individual you are suing for 3 million dollars. Another interesting
fact is that if you
are a pro-se litigant, judges and attorneys will always be sweating,
because they
never know if you are going to mouth off or turn around and sue them
(normally
barred by professional courtesy and liscencing standards for regular
attorneys)

I recommend the Nolo book "how to represent yourself in court" as a
good start!
me - 27 Sep 2007 02:20 GMT
>> Thanks to you and Amateus for the on point good replies. Most
>> attorneys are not interested in representing the small client, they
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> from my amalgam. I was a "pro-se" litigant. Very interesting
> experience

I bet and an uproad battle, since there is so much controversy over
whether or not those merc filings are detrimental. I would guess they
are, but convincing a jury or judge is something else, especially given
all the right wing old farts on the bench.

> They have a very good series on representing
>> yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the lawyer fees, in addition to court costs which you pay anyway (like
> expert witness fees, which in itself is a small fortune).

Don't know if they have that in AZ or not. Sounds like another scam to
me. What else is new. Nothing for the common man, everything for the
rich protected classes, including those above 50K (that is rich to most
of us). Ever notice how the deck is stacked in favor of those that get
the crooked politicians elected? How did you make out with your merc.
case, care to share? Let's do away with the Constitutional oath, since
it is such a farce nowadays.

>  Most people
>> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> barred by professional courtesy and liscencing standards for regular
> attorneys)

Yeah, they THINK that I am stupid and don't know court procedure. Are
they in for a suprise.

> I recommend the Nolo book "how to represent yourself in court" as a
> good start!

All their books are good, but many outdated, as you pointed out.
I will say that is does seem that the guys who visit this group are alot
more open than the traditional medical crowd, which was refreshing. This
is the first dentist I've been to in quite some time that screwed up.
Can't say that about lawyers and doctors.
Simplicio - 27 Sep 2007 04:45 GMT
> I bet and an uproad battle, since there is so much controversy over
> whether or not those merc filings are detrimental. I would guess they
> are, but convincing a jury or judge is something else, especially given
> all the right wing old farts on the bench.

It is difficult to even get any case to trial, including generic
malpractice
in my expierence/ observation. If a case goes to trial as some have
over
amalgam, your are correct, it is extremely difficult to convince
every member of a jury beyond all doubt that you were injured by
dental
Hg or that representations made by dentistry are fraudulent. When i
was representing my case I calculated that just to take the case to
trial against one party from start to finish would be about $350,000+.
(I named 4 in my lawsuit). Remember if you lose in my state you pay
the court costs, that is, not lawyers fees but the cost of things like
expert testimony, about $10,000 per expert, and if you lose an appeal
you pay the cost of the appeal for the other side.

> Don't know if they have that in AZ or not. Sounds like another scam to
> me.

I know that many states do have arbitration requirements. You are
right
that although arbitration requirements are billed as preventing
frivolous
lawsuits they are scams because they impose an expenisve secondary
court system on top of the basic one. (That is also why credit card
companies like arbitration so much). There was an appeals decision
I read for my state during my  case where the attorney general had
said that making the court process more expensive is not
unconstitutional ,because nowhere in the state or US consitution does
it state that justice has to be affordable!! In other words the idea
is you can avoid arbitration if you are willing to
accept "loser pays" rules in the main courts,as long as access to the
main courts isn't denied there is no limit on how expensive it can be
made.

> What else is new. Nothing for the common man, everything for the
> rich protected classes, including those above 50K (that is rich to most
> of us). Ever notice how the deck is stacked in favor of those that get
> the crooked politicians elected?

Try suing a health club, you can't win!

> How did you make out with your merc.
> case, care to share?

it went on for about six months but the case was dismissed because
I tried to bypass the arbitration requirement. I argued that not
revealing
Hg in fillings was fraud and should not be subject to arbitration. The
judge actually was somewhat sympathetic to my case (she actually
went to high school in the community where I live) but bought the
other sides argument that even general fraud claims should be subject
to health arbitration laws. (The truth is that if the judges don't
"toe the line"
they may not be reappointed). There is also a very light trigger
written in the arbitration laws in my state, where any lawsuit that
sounds remotely related to a "medical injury" must first go to
arbitration, no matter what. Of course it's a farce because an ADA
dentist shouldn't be certifying fraud claims against the ADA, which
essentially is one of the requirements for arbitration to proceed. If
you ever represent yourself, you'll find that some laws as written
don't make sense, but they are followed mindlessly by the courts
anyway. Looking back I would have
argued immediately that  arbitration requirements when applied to Hg
filling cases are unconstitutional, I also would have added a count
of
"constructive fraud"  but I caught on too late, after the hearing for
the motion to dismiss.

No lawyers would help me on a partial basis because they said they
feared being sued by a pro-se litigant if  they messed up. Going rate
for a good lawyer to take the entire case in my area, would have been
$300+ per hour,
(expert testimony, consultation usually starts at $200+ per hour). I
probably
ended up doing about $70K of legal work myself.

> Yeah, they THINK that I am stupid and don't know court procedure. Are
> they in for a suprise.

All that matters is what the judge thinks, and yes the defense will
fear the aribitray judge and the sympathy you elicit as someone going
it alone against
the system.  I think it's great to take the initiative to represent
yourself in court, if you have a good case, which is not an automatic
winner, and what is there to lose? Just try to avoid paying the other
sides lawyer fees, court costs.

PS- when i was researching online I remember reading about one state
in
      the Southwest where they have loser pays laws. I'm not sure if
it
      was Arizona. I would definitely thoroughly review your states
laws
      regarding loser pays and arbitration requirements. There is
also
     a lawyer group on google that can give you some legal advice.
Amatus Cremona - 27 Sep 2007 12:13 GMT
> Some, perhaps
> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a
> good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you
> personally).

Ok, sorry I responded
me - 28 Sep 2007 01:30 GMT
>> Some, perhaps
>> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a
>> good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you
>> personally).
>
> Ok, sorry I responded

The quote your using was a reply to sarge137, not to you (perhaps you're
lost in the thread?). But if the shoe fits.... ;-)
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:49 GMT
> <snip for brevity's sake>
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> yourself in both small claims and superior courts. Judging from the work
> I've seen of many attorneys, I certainly can do no worse.

The problem is that you're not an attorney and will be at a great
disadvantage even in small claims since the dentist will be represented by a
lawyer. Either his insurance carrier's lawyer or just the fact that he's a
corporation and  can't represent himself. Always try to settle a case even
if it's for a sum lower than you believe you're entitled to. Try to
negotiate with his insurance company.
btw, you can't sue for malpractice in small claims. Even in the Law division
you'll need to get another dentist to sign an affidavit stating you have a
case before proceeding.

Most people
> don't like attorneys really; their profession and the fundamentally
> unjust system in which they operate, are often cited in gallup and other
> polls as being among the most dishonorable lines of work.

Yes, and you're presenting your case to a lawyer. The judge!

Some, perhaps
> you, are not dishonorable, but I have found the majority are, with a
> good percentage quite incompetent (again, no reflection on you
> personally).
Mike - 30 Sep 2007 14:08 GMT
> <snip for brevity's sake>
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> Regards,
>> Sarge

I believe all states are covered by Federal HIPAA regulations so access to
medical records are the same no matter where you're accessing them.  Sorry,
I didn't read the original post.

Mike
The purposes of the privacy regulations are threefold:

 1.. to protect and enhance the rights of consumers by providing them
access to their health information and controlling the inappropriate use of
that information;
 2.. to improve the quality of health care in the U.S. by restoring trust
in the health care system among consumers, health care processionals, and
the multitude of organizations and individuals committed to delivery of
care; and,
 3.. to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of health care delivery by
creating a national framework for health privacy protection that builds on
efforts by states, health systems, other organizations and individuals.

Who is subject to HIPAA?

HIPAA regulations apply to entities that fall into three categories:

 1.. Health plans
 2.. Health care clearinghouses (who process nonstandard data elements into
standard data elements)
 3.. Health care providers who electronically transmit any health
information in a HIPAA-covered "transaction". These electronic transactions
are the ones for which standards have been adopted by DHHS.
Mike - 30 Sep 2007 14:14 GMT
>> <snip for brevity's sake>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> information in a HIPAA-covered "transaction". These electronic
> transactions are the ones for which standards have been adopted by DHHS.

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 09:34 GMT
>> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> can personally transport to Dentist B? What if Dentist A refuses to
>> release records to patient X?

No problem. This is a lawsuit, you just file a Motion for production of
documents, if he doesn't turn them over to you within the statutory period
you file a Motion to have him held in contempt.

How do attorneys handle this so Dentist A
>> cannot get together with Dentist B and decide on a story?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> attorney would be able to advise you on this.  I certainly hope you're
> not trying to undertake such an action without one!

It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run the
quack's legal bill up and cost his malpractise insurance carrier's legal
department a lot of time and money. They may decide to settle rather than
waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether
they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy.

> Regards,
> Sarge
The Webby - 30 Sep 2007 16:34 GMT
I must admit that I am *very curious* about this:

How much **money** are you talking about in damages and also in legal
costs?

Webby

> >> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> > Regards,
> > Sarge
Steven Bornfeld - 30 Sep 2007 17:36 GMT
>>> Who owns the x-rays and other records, patient or dentist?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether
> they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy.

    Not necessarily true.  Most policies will grant a non-contest clause,
which usually comes with a discount in the premium.  But I've never seen
a mandatory non-contest clause on any of my policies.

Steve

>> Regards,
>> Sarge
Jobeth66 - 30 Sep 2007 18:02 GMT
> It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run the
> quack's legal bill up and cost his malpractise insurance carrier's legal
> department a lot of time and money. They may decide to settle rather than
> waste a lot of money AND possibly lose. The dentist has no say in whether
> they settle or not, he's waived that right when he took the policy.

That's not always true.  Most malpractice policies (be it legal,
medical, etc.) have a provision whereby the insured may refuse to
consent to settlement.  There are conditions that go with that, but
for someone whose livlihood may be affected by a malpractice payment,
the right to refuse to settle does in many cases lies with the policy
holder, and the carrier will defer to them.  This is not like a
standard liability policy where the right to resolve lies with the
carrier.  Not all professional policies allow for this, or may offer a
premium discount if the practitioner opts out of that provision, but
you can't go blanket and say that the carrier is going to settle
without the practitioner's approval.
Shyster - 30 Sep 2007 23:31 GMT
>> It depends upon how much he's suing for. Even an amateur lawyer can run
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> premium discount if the practitioner opts out of that provision, but
> you can't go blanket and say that the carrier is going to settle

I said when it's for a small sum. A patient can't sue in small claims for
malpractice but if you try to sue the patient he may use that as a defence
and file a counterclaim. At any rate the dentist's lawyer will have to
represent him whether it's because he's a corporation or has liability
insurance.  My advice to any dentist is that if it's only a matter of a few
thousand $ pay the unsatisfied patient. Save yourself a lot of time,
aggravation and bad publicity. Remember that Complaints are public documents
and may be freely distributed.
 
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