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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2007question re Treatment Plan
Long story short: I have a Treatment Plan from the dental school in which I was to have my last 2 implant crowns made and installed. This treatment plan was signed by the instructor and graduate student dentist last year. Now they have ended the grad school program and are telling me they want to have it done by undergrads because having staff do it is more expensive. I say I did not sign up to have it done by undergrads nor will I permit undergrads to do it, I want staff (residents) to do it and at the price I was quoted. Isn't a signed Treatment Plan a binding contract? I should also mention that I pre-paid for the traetment. I would be willing to compromise with them at 50% the difference between staff prices and student prices, if I had to, but basically I signed a paper that they would do the last 2 crowns on the implants (3 and 4) at $850 each and I think I should get that price because that is what we all agreed to AND done by grad students. I say if there is not a grad student program anymore than it should be done by profs, not by undergrads. I would have never agreed (and will not agree) to any contract involving under-grads for this work. I think you should get your money back because undergrads were not what you agreed to. I would also look at any fine print on the contract you signed in case you agreed to have a "student" do the work (which could be implied as being an undergrad or a grad student). You also did not agree in your contract to have a prof do your work. You may want to talk to a lawyer regarding this contract you signed. When I was a student, all profs who saw patients at the school (outside of patients involved in some sort of research) were the prof's actual private practice patients (even though they were seen at the school). Most schools permit this in order to entice would-be profs to teach there because what most schools pay them to teach is much less than what they could earn in a full-time private practice. It allows them to supplement their income they get from teaching. Given this, you can see why there is a reluctance on the part of some professor to treat you. School budgets change all the time. There is no doubt that there was talk of the grad program closing for more than the summer. It is too bad you didn't know about it before you started your complex treatment. John > Long story short: > I have a Treatment Plan from the dental school in which I was to have [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > done by profs, not by undergrads. I would have never agreed (and will > not agree) to any contract involving under-grads for this work. OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. In the Dental/Medical school programs an undergrad is someone who hasn't graduated college. It is correct to use pre-doctoral and post-doctoral student in this situation. Many if not most pre-doctoral students have B.S. and B.A. degrees. Some have Masters degrees, and a few even have PhDs. If you signed a contract you'd better read the fine print. You and the contractor already have a legal binding agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it to the letter of the law. > OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. > > In the Dental/Medical school programs an undergrad is someone who > hasn't graduated college. > It is correct to use pre-doctoral and post-doctoral student in this > situation. I understand what you are saying, but universities consider dental degrees as undergraduate (not pre-doctoral) degrees. So, it is more appropriate to refer to them as undergraduate (for your general dental degree) and postdoctoral (as your dental specialty degree). If the poster signed a legal document, the word "pre-doctoral" wouldn't appear on it as it doesn't exist. John > Many if not most pre-doctoral students have B.S. and B.A. degrees. > Some have Masters degrees, and a few even have PhDs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it > to the letter of the law. >> OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >John While this may be the norm <undergraduate> in dental school degrees, I still find it insulting and inaccurate. Since post-doc is commonly used shouldn't *pre-doc* be used as well ? Not only for consistency but for accuracy, which is a hallmark of our chosen profession ! As far as the legal document goes, who knows what it says ? It appears that the OP hasn't even read it. >> Many if not most pre-doctoral students have B.S. and B.A. degrees. >> Some have Masters degrees, and a few even have PhDs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it >> to the letter of the law. >As far as the legal document goes, who knows what it says ? >It appears that the OP hasn't even read it. You make a lot of inaccurate assumptions. There is no contract to read, it's just a signed Treatment Plan (1 page) with procedures and prices. I probably signed something when admitted to the program but if I did, they did not give me a copy of it. In fact, I do not recall ever signing such a contract, which is surprising. Maybe the student forgot this step??? (I noticed from the beginning, which was 2005, that they were very "loose" over there, in the beginning, with the student periodontist, I never talked to an instructor, although the student reported that he was in conversations with one. I never ever consulted with the instructor, only the student. Also, the student bypassed paperwork a lot, like he would just take me over for "free" xrays instead of filling out paperwork, and the people over there would just give him a "knowing" look. He also gave me a "free" cleaning, bypassing paperwork. Sometimes he would say, "Don't check in the office, just meet me back at the office". This was not a bad thing, as far as I'm concerned, it saved me time and money and I was appreciative. The surgery was apparently done pretty well, and the instructor was hovering over the student pretty often during each surgery, sometimes stepping in to show the student something. I mention all this only to point out that they may have forgotten to have me sign a contract, as I do not recall signing one and have no copy of one, and I kept records in a folder of everything! >> OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > John I know in the UK the degree is BDS, is it not? Here of course it's DDS or DMD, and you know what that stands for... Steve >> Many if not most pre-doctoral students have B.S. and B.A. degrees. >> Some have Masters degrees, and a few even have PhDs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it >> to the letter of the law.  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. > > In the Dental/Medical school programs an undergrad is someone who > hasn't graduated college. > It is correct to use pre-doctoral and post-doctoral student in this > situation. I understand this is the convention in parts of the old empire (and the UK)--I believe dentists are addressed as "Mister". IIRC there was a quite acrimonious thread several years back on this subject. No one's mind was changed. I really don't care what they call me, as long as they have an understanding of the training involved. However, I think there is one area where your point is well-taken, and where not acknowledging the degree may have hurt us, and this is in the hospitals. Of course, our medical brethren rule the roost (of late, probably the pencil-pushers do) and to the extent that it tends to de-emphasise our level of training may in fact have a negative effect on our status and reimbursement within the institution. Steve > Many if not most pre-doctoral students have B.S. and B.A. degrees. > Some have Masters degrees, and a few even have PhDs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it > to the letter of the law. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >agreement in place. Both are obligated to follow it >to the letter of the law. At the school I go to for this, they use the term grad. My patient history states: "Presented to grad perio for implant consultation". In the case of my student dentists, they had not graduated the dental program they were in, thus "grad students" was used. I didn't make it up, that's what I heard them use at least in some cases. There is no fine print on the Treatment Plan. It is simply one page, signed by the dental student, the instructor and myself, and it has the treatment to be done with prices listed. It does say "estimated price" but I thought I heard somewhere that, like auto mechanics, that estimate has a legal status. That is what I am wondering: what legal status this Treatment Plan has, because I'm pretty sure they're going to try to force me into having it done by undergrads, or pay more for instructors to do it. > At the school I go to for this, they use the term grad. My patient > history states: > "Presented to grad perio for implant consultation". Which school are you getting these services from? Webby > There is no fine print on the Treatment Plan. It is simply one page, > signed by the dental student, the instructor and myself, and it has [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to try to force me into having it done by undergrads, or pay more for > instructors to do it. Sounds to me like you should just ask for your money back if you don't want undergrads to do it. I believe the director of clinics at the school would want to quickly diffuse a situation of a patient who has a beef with the clinic. Easy to diffuse it by giving the money back. Just my guess. By the way, current undergraduate (you know what I mean, Newbie) dental students do in fact graduate having restored at least one dental implant at my alma mater...As for surgically placing them, I don't think they do that. John An estimate is "An Estimate". A best guess at what the proposed treatment will cost assuming nothing changes along the way. If the procedures listed are completed in a "timely" manner, the fees listed are charged. If different procedures are done or if the course of treatment takes many years to complete, fees can be different. It is not a contract. You sign it to prove fees were discussed with the patient, nothing more. Signature/ Amatus / > >>OK, have a problem with your terminology usage. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > to try to force me into having it done by undergrads, or pay more for > instructors to do it. >An estimate is "An Estimate". A best guess at what the proposed treatment >will cost assuming nothing changes along the way. If the procedures listed >are completed in a "timely" manner, the fees listed are charged. If >different procedures are done or if the course of treatment takes many years >to complete, fees can be different. It is not a contract. You sign it to >prove fees were discussed with the patient, nothing more. Considering that there is no fine print, I think I am inclined to agree with you, in a legal sense, anyway. Unless California has a specific law re "treatment plans" as they do with car repair estimates. That is the question: do treatment plans have a specific legal meaning in California, or not? and that is what I need to find out. Otherwise, if the Treatment Plan is just an estimate with no legal standing, then my best recourse is to get my money back from them and have the work done somewhere else, (at a higher price, no doubt) or have the instructors do it at a higher price. The thing is, my "feeling" was that the Treatment Plan was what I should expect to pay, and I did not figure on paying more. Guess if the grad program had not ended, maybe it would have worked out that way. Still, it doesn't hurt to ask and see if they can give me a fair discount, given that I have already given them around $12k of business. >I think you should get your money back because undergrads were not what you >agreed to. I would also look at any fine print on the contract you signed >in case you agreed to have a "student" do the work (which could be implied >as being an undergrad or a grad student). You also did not agree in your >contract to have a prof do your work. You may want to talk to a lawyer >regarding this contract you signed. I hope it does not come to that. That is why I came here for facts re a "treatment plan". I have still not gotten the answer. Does anyone here know what the legal status of a "Treatment Plan" is, in California? The contract has no fine print, just procedures and prices, signed by the instructor, student, and myself. I'm pretty sure it would be binding if I said, "No, you should charge me LESS for that!" >When I was a student, all profs who saw patients at the school (outside of >patients involved in some sort of research) were the prof's actual private [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >full-time private practice. It allows them to supplement their income they >get from teaching. No, here,they do have "resident professors" doing work on people who come in for dental work at the school. They offer you prices on undergrads, grads, and instructors, whichever you want. I chose grad students but now that program has been discontinued and I still am left with this treatment plan and the work not done, and I've pre-paid. >Given this, you can see why there is a reluctance on the part of some >professor to treat you. No, I don't think that is the reason. I think they just want more money to do the work I have contracted to have done at a lower price by grad students. I think the school itself should make up the difference in price between grad students (which THEY took away from me) and instructors, which I did not contract for but am being forced into. Does that seem fair to anyone? Am I off base here? >School budgets change all the time. There is no doubt that there was talk >of the grad program closing for more than the summer. It is too bad you >didn't know about it before you started your complex treatment. > >John I started my treatment in 2005, I had 6 implants so it has taken this long to get around to the last 2 crowns. That is the other reason I think they should honor the treatment plan, it is already about 4/5 done at the end of almost 2 years of treatment. They just ended the grad program in June, right after my 4 implant crowns on the bottom, so I only have 2 more crowns to go, on top. >> Long story short: >> I have a Treatment Plan from the dental school in which I was to have [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> done by profs, not by undergrads. I would have never agreed (and will >> not agree) to any contract involving under-grads for this work. |
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