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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2007

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Lower left second pre-molar still problematic

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John - 05 Jul 2007 18:24 GMT
The story continues:

It's now 13 weeks post root canal therapy on this inexplicably painful
tooth.  The root canal was done by a very thorough and meticulous
endodontist (so my dentist said), and x-rays revealed no signs of
abscess.  Four weeks ago my dentist put a temporary crown on the tooth
which he hoped would "stabilize it" if there was an unseen crack
causing the pain.   The crown didn't really cut down on the pain, and
just last week, the tooth is more sensitive to touch than it ever was
before.

My options as I see them:

1. redo the root canal, presumably with a different endodontist
2. do an apicoectomy to remove the tooth root tip
3. declare the tooth a loss, and begin the extraction and implant
process

My inclination is to get an implant, but perhaps an apicoectomy is
worth a shot?  The tooth has tortuous root canal structure and the RCT
was very difficult to do the first time, so I'm guessing that redoing
it would not give better results.

But with the recent posts about implant problems, I'm a little more
anxious about it doing it, and at $3000-$4000 a tooth here in the
north east (Long Island), it's not a trivial expense.   How much is an
apicectomy going to cost me?
Amatus Cremona - 05 Jul 2007 20:26 GMT
I don't know about fees in your area, but I can say you are comparing:

Apical surgery with 50% success rate
Implant surgery with 95% success rate

Approximations.

Signature

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Amatus

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> The story continues:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> north east (Long Island), it's not a trivial expense.   How much is an
> apicectomy going to cost me?
nospam - 06 Jul 2007 01:17 GMT
Thanks to AC for the success rates. I had heard 67% for apico and 98%
for implants.

Protocol is to 1st attempt disassembly and retreat. The original RCT
specialist "should" do this gratis since you are so close to original Tx.

However, I'm sure that the GP and endo guy will want to perio probe
around the tooth to see if there is a narrow, deep pocket that would be
pathognomonic for a root fracture.

Apico on a lower molar can be dicey. I'd go for the implant myself or if
you were my brother.
ruby2sd@webtv.net - 05 Jul 2007 22:31 GMT
I realize that what I'm about to say is not helpful except that in the
"misery loves company"  line I definitely feel your pain..!

 Have been going through the exact same procedures.( last  molar on
left bottom) which was a fine, filled strong tooth to which the anchor
for a Root-Canal on next tooth was to be placed..

When the last of the first 3 Endodentists worked on the
still-uncompleted RC.
she said"oops!".. and told me to come back in a few weeks for the
Crown,
Later, at home, I acidently swalllowed 1/2 the filling and a piece of
the good tooth that had dislodged.(from the "oops".I gather)
When I tried to get another appt w/ her, I was told I must seek another
Dentist...as she had just had a baby..
3 consultations,(with recommendations to Extract" the1/2-finished RC
tooth many x-rays and a year later..I've finally found an "Emergency"
Dentist for a filling for the formerly good, strong molar as even air
hitting the exposed nerve has been excrutiating..It's taken that long to
find a dentist to phone back, make an evening appt.for ext Wed..After
his vacation..!
I live in Long Island too..

I wish I'd never gone for the unneccessary R.C. as that tooth wasn't
bothering me.. I simply obeyed the referral of my old  DentisT.. who,,
chose to file down the tooth part of the last molar "to make it even
with the filling"....

   I know, in other states, Dentists do Oral surgery in hospitals, but
haven't found one here...and bcs of impending knee surgery, and
infection.. would fee safer in a hospital..

 I'm on the South Shore.. If any of you Dentists.. will do a simple
filling, w/o trying to sell me on a lifetime of intricate procedures on
my winning smile.. please e-mail me...Spent my youth in the
Orthodontists chair, prefer to spend the Golden years facing my 6
Grandsons rather than Dental X-ray machines...My autograph on a check is
worth more than you can imagine...

I'd like to keep my smile.I was blessed wth strong teeth and bones
Why is that such a no-no for the DEntal community?
John & Ninetta - 06 Jul 2007 00:45 GMT
Doing an apico usually removes a some of the buccal bone plate necessary for
good implant success.  So, if the apico fails, you may have difficulties
with putting an implant in that space.  You should ask your dentist of
his/her opinion given your clinical/radiographic circumstances prior to
deciding on apico.

John
John - 06 Jul 2007 22:51 GMT
> Doing an apico usually removes a some of the buccal bone plate necessary for
> good implant success.  So, if the apico fails, you may have difficulties
> with putting an implant in that space.  You should ask your dentist of
> his/her opinion given your clinical/radiographic circumstances prior to
> deciding on apico.

The low success rate of apicoectomy compared to implant is definitely
something
to seriously consider, as well as a failed apico making a subsequent
implant
more difficult.
mamounjo3@yahoo.com - 06 Jul 2007 16:51 GMT
you could try having it re-done with an endodontist who uses a
microscope and a technique called "warm vertical condensation of gutta
percha" where the root canal filling is pushed into the tooth while it
is in a soft, melted state, so that it flows into the root canal, even
if it is a torturous root canal.  most endodontists use microscopes
and use this technique anyway.

You have to be careful with lower second molars because the ends of
the roots of these teeth are often right next to a large jaw nerve in
the area called the mental nerve.  This nerve can occassionally be
injured during root canal treatment on these teeth, which may cause
pain.  the root canal filling material may sometimes be pushed out the
end of the root into the mental nerve, also causing pain.   The tooth
might also be cracked.  Sometimes this happens if the endodontist uses
a technique called "cold lateral condensation" to fill the tooth with
the root canal material.  in the "cold lateral condensation"
technique, the endodontists pushes a metal wedge into the root canal
in order to condense and push the root canal filling material.  This
wedging motion can on rare occasions crack the tooth because of the
pressure of the wedging motion on the thin tooth root.  The "warm
vertical condensation" technique for filling a root canal has less
risk of this happening.

Doing an apicoectomy on these teeth is also somewhat risky because in
an apicoectomy a hole is made in the bone at the tip of the root of
the tooth in question.  on a lower premoler an apicoectomy could
result in damage to the mental nerve, because the drill hole into the
bone might go into the nerve.  An implant might be a better option,
but the implant must be placed above the mental nerve so as not to
damage it.  there has to be enough bone above the mental nerve to give
support for the implant.

Also, sometimes there may be enough glitches in the root canal filling
that doing an apicoectomy would not solve the problem, in which case
first redo the root canal then do the apicoectomy.

whatever is done must take into account possible risk of damaging
mental nerve.

> The story continues:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> north east (Long Island), it's not a trivial expense.   How much is an
> apicectomy going to cost me?
John - 06 Jul 2007 22:47 GMT
On Jul 6, 11:51 am, mamoun...@yahoo.com wrote:
> you could try having it re-done with an endodontist who uses a
> microscope and a technique called "warm vertical condensation of gutta
> percha" where the root canal filling is pushed into the tooth while it
> is in a soft, melted state, so that it flows into the root canal, even
> if it is a torturous root canal.  most endodontists use microscopes
> and use this technique anyway.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure my endodontist didn't use magnification nor any
high tech locating or imaging devices of any kind other than x-rays.
He did heat something up and insert it - perhaps that is a sign of the
"warm vertical" technique...

> whatever is done must take into account possible risk of damaging
> mental nerve.

Is there a way to accurately see how close this nerve is to the root
tip?
Amatus Cremona - 09 Jul 2007 12:09 GMT
> whatever is done must take into account possible risk of damaging
> mental nerve.

Mental Nerve ??  Are you sure you meant that particular branch?
Newbie - 09 Jul 2007 15:45 GMT
>You have to be careful with lower second molars because the ends of
>the roots of these teeth are often right next to a large jaw nerve in
>the area called the mental nerve.

OK this is completely wrong.

The second *bicuspid* is near the mental foramen.

Second molar apicies are near the mandibular canal,
which contains the mandibular nerve.

Never seen an apico on a lower second molar.

BTW success rate for 2nd molar RCT is lower than other
teeth. IIRC ~85%.
Dartos - 10 Jul 2007 13:56 GMT
> Never seen an apico on a lower second molar.
>
> BTW success rate for 2nd molar RCT is lower than other
> teeth. IIRC ~85%.

I have seen one, though I didn't believe it according the the
radiograph.  It was after the tooth was on the tray that I could
tell the roots had been sliced at a 45º angle from the buccal.

No retrograde filling though.

I would suspect a lot of the problem with 2nd molars is adequate
vision and working space.  Add some aberrant canal anatomy, and
the finished endo is likely less than perfect.

D
Newbie - 10 Jul 2007 17:46 GMT
>> Never seen an apico on a lower second molar.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>D

Indeed ! Add a little trismus and/or limited opening, it's tough.

Am pretty brave and have taken out thousands of WTs but
an apico on a second molar... not me !

Even an apico on a lower 1st is, well, not in my comfort zone.
Dartos - 10 Jul 2007 22:43 GMT
The only apico that I do is when #7 or #25, etc. is lost due to perio
and I'm bonding the crown portion back in the space.  I cut quite a lot
of root off there before my retrograde restoration.

;-)
D

>>>Never seen an apico on a lower second molar.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Even an apico on a lower 1st is, well, not in my comfort zone.
Amatus Cremona - 11 Jul 2007 14:12 GMT
Use Monodont components to hold the extracted tooth in place.  It easily
lasts 5-8 years that way.  I have some in longer than that.

Signature

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Amatus

/

>
> The only apico that I do is when #7 or #25, etc. is lost due to perio
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>
>> Even an apico on a lower 1st is, well, not in my comfort zone.
Newbie - 11 Jul 2007 15:26 GMT
Have seen these on-the-fly "bridges",
and usually respect both of your your opinions.
Just think it is crappy dentistry.

If ya'll are talking about a temporary situation (months not years)
and more extensive splinting then, nevermind.

>Use Monodont components to hold the extracted tooth in place.  It easily
>lasts 5-8 years that way.  I have some in longer than that.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> ;-)
>> D
Amatus Cremona - 11 Jul 2007 18:00 GMT
I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough" to
place castings on and are trying to post-pone the dentures.  Surprising how
often these last for many years.

Signature

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Amatus

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>
> Have seen these on-the-fly "bridges",
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>> ;-)
>>> D
Dartos - 11 Jul 2007 19:11 GMT
> I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough" to
> place castings on and are trying to post-pone the dentures.  Surprising how
> often these last for many years.

Most of the time, that's where I use them too.  But, I can't say
'always'.  Several of mine are over 10 years old.

'Course another good choice is where any anterior tooth is being
extracted and you need something in place today.  Implants and
bridges come later after healing has taken place.

D
Amatus Cremona - 11 Jul 2007 19:40 GMT
yup

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Amatus

/

>
>> I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough"
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> D
Newbie - 12 Jul 2007 16:49 GMT
>> I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough" to
>> place castings on and are trying to post-pone the dentures.  Surprising how
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>D

Flipper.
Newbie - 12 Jul 2007 17:08 GMT
>> I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough" to
>> place castings on and are trying to post-pone the dentures.  Surprising how
>> often these last for many years.
>
>Most of the time, that's where I use them too.  But, I can't say
>'always'.  Several of mine are over 10 years old.

Then those should have been FPD's or Maryland bridge.

>'Course another good choice is where any anterior tooth is being
>extracted and you need something in place today.  Implants and
>bridges come later after healing has taken place.
>
>D
Amatus Cremona - 12 Jul 2007 17:38 GMT
Lower incisors with so much recession that a parallel crown prep would
result in a prep 0.5 mm wide, or you have to stop the prep 7 mm above the
gingiva.  I hate crown prep's on lower incisors in any case.  You have to
cut away the entire tooth.  I am about ten years on a couple of Monodont FPD
on lower incisors with severe recession, with no maintence.  The Maryland
prep will turn the abutment teeth gray if the teeth are not real thick.

This works well for me.

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Amatus

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>
>>> I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough"
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>>D
John & Ninetta - 13 Jul 2007 01:38 GMT
Whatever happened to Maris?

John

> Lower incisors with so much recession that a parallel crown prep would
> result in a prep 0.5 mm wide, or you have to stop the prep 7 mm above the
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>>
>>>D
Steven Bornfeld - 13 Jul 2007 03:17 GMT
> Whatever happened to Maris?
>
> John

    According to this he is retired from dentistry:

http://www.eastflex.com/Patients.html

Steve
John & Ninetta - 13 Jul 2007 10:03 GMT
>> Whatever happened to Maris?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Steve

Thanks...John
Amatus Cremona - 13 Jul 2007 12:04 GMT
Last time I checked, he was participating at DT.  I log in there every 2-3
years and do a search for my name to see what people are saying about me.
Otto was there as well last time I checked.

He re-married a couple of years ago (I wanted to attend the ceremony, but
could figure out how to get away that week.  He currently lives in the
Chicago area.

He recently opened a dental lab.  The lab does denture work, monodonts, and
sells monodont components.  I have his card if anyone wants a contact
number.

He still does his education seminars as well.

Great guy!

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Amatus

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> Whatever happened to Maris?
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>>>
>>>>D
Steven Bornfeld - 13 Jul 2007 17:54 GMT
> Last time I checked, he was participating at DT.  I log in there every 2-3
> years and do a search for my name to see what people are saying about me.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Great guy!

    Unless memory fails, (quite likely) he's the only dentist on this list
I've ever met in person--at the Greater NY Meeting.
    We'll have to fix that...

Steve
Amatus Cremona - 16 Jul 2007 19:15 GMT
I thought "M" wanted to visit Michissippi.   :-)

Signature

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Amatus

/

>> Last time I checked, he was participating at DT.  I log in there every
>> 2-3 years and do a search for my name to see what people are saying about
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 16 Jul 2007 19:37 GMT
> I thought "M" wanted to visit Michissippi.   :-)

    She either does, or it's a verbal tic.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Newbie - 19 Jul 2007 16:43 GMT
>Lower incisors with so much recession that a parallel crown prep would
>result in a prep 0.5 mm wide, or you have to stop the prep 7 mm above the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>This works well for me.

My main objection was to the use of the "natural pontic".

Agree with your other statements.
Amatus Cremona - 19 Jul 2007 19:53 GMT
I know.

:-)

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Amatus

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>
>>Lower incisors with so much recession that a parallel crown prep would
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Agree with your other statements.
Newbie - 12 Jul 2007 16:49 GMT
Now are we talking about splinting or are we talking about using
the clinical crown of a natural tooth as a "pontic"

Would much rather have a denture tooth used as a pontic.
As the "natural pontic" inevitably dries out and fractures or crazes,
not to mention the probable more rapid calculus formation on the
"natural pontic"

Though certain that your kung-fu is superior to what I have seen,
still think it's crappy patchwork.

>I only do it for severe perio patients whose teeth are not "good enough" to
>place castings on and are trying to post-pone the dentures.  Surprising how
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>>Use Monodont components to hold the extracted tooth in place.  It easily
>>>lasts 5-8 years that way.  I have some in longer than that.
Amatus Cremona - 12 Jul 2007 17:32 GMT
Most often for lower incisors that are periodontal nightmares with 6-8 mm of
horizontal bone loss.  One tooth has to come out, so I prep small class III
preps on the neighbors and the one coming out.  Bond the monodont component
to the one coming out, extract it, shorten the root until it just barely
enters the socket 1-3 mm, polish and bond it back in place.  Takes about 30
minutes.

I agree that the denture tooth stays clean longer.  Sometimes, you don't
have enough time, or you figure the adjacent teeth are not even good enough
for that.

Try the Monodont Tie-Bows for your next splinting case.  Fast, easy and
minimal preparation.  Nothing protruding external to the tooth.

Signature

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Amatus

/

>
> Now are we talking about splinting or are we talking about using
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>>>Use Monodont components to hold the extracted tooth in place.  It easily
>>>>lasts 5-8 years that way.  I have some in longer than that.
Newbie - 19 Jul 2007 16:43 GMT
Think you showed me some prototypes a few summer solstices ago.

Thanks for the reminder, think I will.

>Most often for lower incisors that are periodontal nightmares with 6-8 mm of
>horizontal bone loss.  One tooth has to come out, so I prep small class III
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Try the Monodont Tie-Bows for your next splinting case.  Fast, easy and
>minimal preparation.  Nothing protruding external to the tooth.
Newbie - 09 Jul 2007 17:28 GMT
13 weeks is a reasonable amount of time to expect
the tooth to settle down.

Suspect that there is either a missed canal or a root fracture.

If it were me, would probably let the endo have another go
at treating the RCT with special focus on looking for a vertical
root fracture. Would probably use the same one.

If there is a vertical root fracture, sorry there's no fixing that.
If the endo thinks an apico will work, it might be worth a try,
but retreatment may be the best first option.

You can always get an implant later, with modern grafting
technics there should be no problem placing an implant
wether you get an apico or not.

>The story continues:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>north east (Long Island), it's not a trivial expense.   How much is an
>apicectomy going to cost me?
 
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