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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / May 2007

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TMJD treatment success questions

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Mac - 12 May 2007 16:10 GMT
Hello,
I have just been fitted with my two piece splint, lower for 4-6 months,
upper forever.
I've had a "click" in my left jaw for over twenty years but I started having
migraines and neck trouble in January.  I'm a night and day grinder.
Is it true that only around 40% of those treated with splints find relief?
I have seen this statistic all over the web.  I'm willing to do what it
takes to get this fixed, the months of migraines are just too much.
However, I had to take out a loan to pay for this treatment and I was not
informed that it has a low success rate.  Could this be due to patients not
following directions?  And speaking of not following directions, must I wear
the splint when I eat?  I'm assuming there is some importance to
splint/chewing/jaw alignment.
I asked about the NTI device during my consult but it was dismissed as
pseudo-science and not effective.
Thanks,
-Mac
The Webby - 12 May 2007 16:18 GMT
[clip]

> I asked about the NTI device during my consult but it was dismissed as
> pseudo-science and not effective.
> Thanks,
> -Mac

It would be nice to know who told you that; by name.  But this isn't the
proper place to share that sort of information.
Mac - 12 May 2007 17:05 GMT
> [clip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> It would be nice to know who told you that; by name.  But this isn't the
> proper place to share that sort of information.

I'm sorry, they didn't use those exact words.  It was more like:

"What about this NTI device?  It sounds pretty cool."
"We don't know much about it but we have had patience that have tried it."
"Did it work?"
"They came here didn't they?"

It wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.
My real issue, besides the money, is that I have to wear this splint 24/7
for four months without knowing if it will work.  Anyone dolling out
reassurance?
Thanks again,
-Mac
The Webby - 12 May 2007 17:35 GMT
> > [clip]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Thanks again,
> -Mac

First of all, I don't know how you define "TMJD".  Would you please
define it and then we can begin on that page together.

How much money did you agree to spend on the treatment plan?  

What is supposed to have happened at the conclusion of this four month
24/7 treatment?  In what way is the success of the treatment determined?

What have you read about the NTI?  Do you understand how and why it
works?  Likewise, do understand when and why it may not be indicated?

Webby
Mac - 12 May 2007 20:27 GMT
>> > [clip]
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Webby

TMJD = temporomandibular joint disorder (sp?)
What I understand is that (probably due to a head injury I had a few years
back) my jaw is displaced.  The disk on the left tmj has been pulled out of
position and "pops" back in when I open my mouth very wide.  The muscles
that control the jaw are connected to (or the same as) the neck muscles
which might be why I'm experiencing neck pain.  Every other day or so my
necks "cracks" up near the skull which causes a migraine.  I've been
treated, on and off, for back and neck trouble for twenty years but this
neck problem is different.  It's much higher up and I never had migraines
before this.  I have been seeing my chiro about once a week and it helps but
not for long.
When I open my mouth wide, my jaw moves off to my right.  I'm assuming I
unconsciously learned to do this to avoid an even harder "pop".  Around
January, I started experiencing joint pain on both sides of my face.  This
happened about the same time as the migraines.  I used moist heat (after
doing some research) on the left.  This made me experience pain in the right
joint (I found this interesting).
I also noticed joint pain after (and during) eating.  I don't chew gum or
eat steak, never really have.
I found the NIT-TSS.com site and began reading.  I found the
pencil-in-the-mouth test very interesting.  I asked my regular dentist about
it and he hadn't heard of it.  However, after a brief examination, he
referred me to our TMJ specialist (the only one in town to my
understanding).
And here I am.
I had a student this past term that had the splint form the same specialist
but she ended up with braces for her teeth and hadn't finished the
treatment.
I think I understand the basic principals of the NTI, mostly resting the
muscles and ligaments by arresting the bruxism, an appliance for night and a
separate appliance for daytime if necessary.  I suppose it doesn't help with
jaw displacement, unless allowing the joints to heal places the joint back
in position naturally.
I've already paid for the splint and treatment, about three grand so I have
to give it a try.
Thanks for listening,
-Mac
Triclinic - 12 May 2007 22:14 GMT
Mac,
I'm sorry, I don't have any simple advice for TMD treatment.  This
field is one of the most complex fields in dentistry.  There are high
number of variables that effect symptoms; these variables are
difficult to identify, measure and thus determine the best course of
treatment.  Add to this the observation that the majority of cases
improve without any intervention.  As a result, many methods of
treatment have developed with little evidence of efficacy.

The best advice I can recommend is to contact the nearest Dental
School and request a referral for a Oral-Facial Pain Specialist.  This
is not an ADA recognized specialty, but both dental schools I attended
had instructors that narrowed their practice to TMD management and
were our instructors for Oral-Facial Pain courses.  Both instructors
were specialists in another field, one was an Oral Pathologist and the
other was an Oral Radiologist.

I copied a couple of excerpts from the reference listed below.  One is
specifically in regards to the NTI appliance.

"A recent investigation attempted to compare treatment efficacy
obtained by a conventional stabilization appliance and a new type of
splint, the Nociceptive Trigeminal Inhibition Tension Suppression
System (NTI), on the signs and symptoms of TMD....The stabilization
splint was judged superior."

"The frustration felt by the clinician is evident by the increasing
availability of focused systematic reviews by sources such as the
Cochrane Central Registrar of Controlled Trials and summary reviews
published in Evidence-Based Dentistry...This thorough, systematic
review identified only 12 studies that qualified for inclusion."

Reference:
T. Magnusson, A.M. Adiels, H.L. Nilsson and M. Helkimo, Treatment
effect on signs and symptoms of temporomandibular disorders-comparison
between stabilisation splint and a new type of splint (NTI). A pilot
study, Swed Dent J 28 (2004), pp. 11-20.
E. Allen, A. Brodine, R. Cronin, Jr., T. Donovan, J. Rouse, J.
Summitt.  Annual review of selected dental literature: Report of the
Committee on Scientific Investigation of the American Academy of
Restorative Dentistry.  The Journal of Prosthetic Dentistry, Volume
94, Issue 2, Pages 146-176.

I wish you the best.
Sincerely,
Don
Mac - 13 May 2007 00:32 GMT
"The stabilization splint was judged superior."
I think this is what I wanted to hear.  I know that in medicine there are
rarely easy answers, or inexpensive treatments.  I suppose, after reading
too much internet-info, that I was feeling duped (whether intentionally or
not).
I'll give this a try, following recommendations, etc. and see where I am
with this in four months.
Thanks very much,
-Mac

> Mac,
> I'm sorry, I don't have any simple advice for TMD treatment.  This
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Sincerely,
> Don
The Webby - 13 May 2007 00:40 GMT
> "The stabilization splint was judged superior."
> I think this is what I wanted to hear.  I know that in medicine there are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks very much,
> -Mac

I think there will likely be some other comments made into this thread.  
Don't go away too quickly, Mac.

Webby

> > Mac,
> > I'm sorry, I don't have any simple advice for TMD treatment.  This
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> > Sincerely,
> > Don
Mac - 13 May 2007 01:20 GMT
Not going anywhere, at least for four months :-)

>> "The stabilization splint was judged superior."
>> I think this is what I wanted to hear.  I know that in medicine there are
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Don
Amatus Cremona - 14 May 2007 19:24 GMT
I think you will want to read that particular study in full before accepting
what it says at face value.  There were some problems as I recall.

Signature

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Amatus

/

> "The stabilization splint was judged superior."
> I think this is what I wanted to hear.  I know that in medicine there are
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>> Sincerely,
>> Don
Tim Dixon - 13 May 2007 16:10 GMT
Isn't it also true that the investigators have been reprimanded by the
Swedish government for their bias and lack of objectivity in their "study".

> Mac,
> I'm sorry, I don't have any simple advice for TMD treatment.  This
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Sincerely,
> Don
Mac - 14 May 2007 13:12 GMT
Is this true, anyone?

"Tim Dixon" <timgdixon@cox.net> wrote in message

> Isn't it also true that the investigators have been reprimanded by the
> Swedish government for their bias and lack of objectivity in their
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> System (NTI), on the signs and symptoms of TMD....The stabilization
>> splint was judged superior."
Tim Dixon - 14 May 2007 14:17 GMT
Mac-  This might interest you.  This is what the inventor of the NTI
therapeutic protocol has to say:
**************************************************************************
What is it about the acrylic placed on the teeth that is therapeutic?
Nothing.
What is it about the effect of the shape of the acrylic on the activity of
the masticatory musculature? Everything.

What are the goals of nocturnal splint therapy?
1--To minimize tooth wear during parafunctional occluding activity;
2--To minimize joint strain and disc load during parafunctional occluding
activity;
3--To minimize intensity of muscular activity during parafunctional
occluding activity.

What are the accepted criteria for splint design to achieve the desired
therapeutic result? (which are the same as that for a "good occlusion")
A--Bilateral even posterior contact in COR, with light anterior contact.
(statisfies 1 and 2 above)
B--Immediate posterior disclusion in the event of excursive occluding
movement, made possible by:
--opposing canine contact during the excursive occluding movement, with
transition to;
--incisal contact. (satisfies 1, 2 and 3)

But how do we know that these splint design criteria provide the desired
therapeutic goals? Through prior EMG research and force/load studies.

There are abundant EMG studies and force/load models of A which support its
intended provision of 1 and 2.
There are abundant EMG studies and force/load models of B which support 2
and 3.
(Unfortunately, there are abundant EMG studies to show that A cannot prevent
3).

We expect that a properly made splint or occlusal scheme should minimize
joint strain and disc load and minimize muscular activity in excursive
occluding events, based on the data from EMG and force/load models.

The only difference between an ideal full-coverage occlusal splint and an
NTI-type device is that an NTI-type designed splint can minimize the
intensity of muscular activity in a centric, as well as excursive,
parafunctional act.

So when a study compares a Michigan splint to an NTI on a group of patients
with jaw disorders, (excluding those "primary clenchers" who don''t have any
jaw/joint symptoms but present primarily with headache/migraine) you''d
expect the efficacy to be the same, and in fact, in the Norwegian study,
(one of two studies specifically observing the NTI), that is exactly what
was found.

Knowing what a properly designed Michigan splint and NTI device are supposed
to provide is what makes the Swedish study so curious. If both a Michigan
splint and a properly made NTI provide the same instant posterior disclusion
in excursive movements and incisal-only contact in protrusion, but the
Swedish study showed that nearly ALL Michigan splint subjects saw
significant improvement, while nearly half of the NTI subjects had no
improvement at all, what is one to conclude?

-El There''s-something-fishy-in-Sweden-O~

James P. Boyd, DDS, Developer of the NTI Therapeutic Protocol and Website
The Headache Center of Southern California Clincial Associate
Son of USC Hall of Fame Basketball Coach Bob Boyd
*************************************************************
And from a well known Swedish dentist (Hans Lennros)  that has participated
extensively in this newsgroup over the years.
*************************************************************
Toofy wrote in response to "-El There's-something-fishy-in-Sweden-O~": > So
what is this Swedish "properly made Michigan splint??? Yes, what is it? Good
question! Let's see how they properly made Michigan splints in the Swedish
study (Magnusson et al, 2004):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=15129601&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

To prove that the NTI-splint is clinically worthless they not only
investigated its efficay but also cost-effectiveness measured in minutes.
They did not calulate that the Michigan splint needs TWO visits, that
patients cancel and re-schedule (which costs money), they disregarded cost
of impression material, packaging and stamps/delivery to send to dental
technician and the extra time spent on the Michigan splint compared to the
NTI-splint. In their world dental assistants do not want any sallary and
everything around the office is free of charge! Including the dental
laboratory fee. The result showed that the Michigan splint took a total of
17 minutes and the NTI-splint 27 minutes. The time consumed for the
NTI-splint can be explained by lack of experience (which indicates a risk of
not getting optimal clinical effect). What is more interesting, however, is
the time Magnusson and his fellow investigator Helkimo needed to make the
Michigan splint. In the Swedish textbook "Bite splints in the clinic and
laboratory" ("Bettskenor i kliniken och på laboratoriet", 1987) Magnusson
writes about the normal time needed in average to make a Michigan splint in
the public dental care system: (quote) "It is interesting that the new
government insurance for a splint is based on 34 minutes. During that time
the dentist must during one appointment make impressions of both jaws and
make a jaw registration to obtain inter-occlusal records. The next
appointment, which is also included in this just over half-an-hour, the
splint should be fitted and checked. We sure must have effective methods to
make this work!" (end quote) So he complains that 34 minutes is not really
enough time to do a Michigan splint and all of a sudden, in the scientific
NTI-study, the Michigan splint is made in half that time! Only to show that
the Michigan splint is 10 mintues clinically faster than the NTI-splint!
This can be compared with doping in sports when pride and honor is sold out
to beat someone with seconds or minutes. In this study he sold his
scientific integrity for 10 minutes! The obvious question that arises are:
in how many scientific studies has he done similar cheating before? And to
what degree do results in his previous career depend on concious bias, i.e.
academic dishonesty? I think it is really sad to have to watch how two
outstanding and former respected scientists (Magnusson & Helkimo) are
compromising their reputations in that way. What actually made them to
choose to commit scientific suicide over the NTI-splint? Hans
***************************************************
More from Hans
***************************************************
Hi Jim, The Magnusson picture is a mystery ! If you enlarge it enough you
will see the following: The lower jaw can go to the patient's left as far as
the mandibular midline (between the two lower front teeth) is aligned with
the distal surface on the upper left front tooth. But the patient can go to
the right further, in fact half the width of a lower tooth further. Most
likely if the patient has not an unilateral restricted jaw movement the
patient could go just as far to the left, and then would slide off the
discluding element. So they made the patient stop the excursive movement at
that fixed point that looks good on the picture certifying they were
following the NTI-protocol. Hence this is an arranged picture! Either this
is a model patient for presentation purposes only, or it shows to what
extent they actually paid attention to the NTI protocol. Besides, the NTI
does not seem to have a correct horisontal position from front to back as
the back of the discluding element seems lower than the front part. If this
is the best they could do in an educational model picture they knew would be
scrutinized, what does that tell you about the probability of high,
respectively low, quality of the actual NTI-splints used on patients in the
study? I have repeatedly asked to see those they used in the study but the
only answer I get is a legal mumble that they are not required by law to
show me anything. Which per se is wrong! They are obliged by law to show
their basic data so that clinical trials can be examined. So there is no
doubt they are lawbreakers. For a study to be scientific they must let out
information that can be evaluated. Also, the study should be possible to
repeat. If not it is no serious science. When I offered $150 to every
patient that I was allowed to examine, they responded they did have not time
to arrange that. Anyone ever wondered why Magnusson consistently excluded
headache in the study? Especially strange since Magnusson has stated that is
a common TMD symptom and over 25 years ago stated that clenching of teeth is
correlated to the severity of headache!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=281857&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

and that TMD treatment are beneficial for many patients who suffer from
recurrent headaches:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=6937100&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

Real strange that this large group of typical TMD patients wasn't included
in the study ... maybe fear of the NTI would prove to be far more effective
than the other splint ... Hans the NTI-CSI (crime-scene-investigator)
**************************************************************
Mac here is some recent research you should take the time to read.
http://www.nti-tss.com/RESEARCH.html

Just because someone posts an abstract that apparently contradicts what
other clincians are seeing in their practices doesn't mean you should hang
your hat on it.  Research, research, research, research.  I am sorry you
already paid for the splint, but that doesn't mean you have to actually use
it.  In fact the frequency and severity of your migraines will likely
increase by using the full coverage design.  It simply gives you more
surface area to achieve maximum clenching ability while asleep.

Perhaps some of the others will weigh in on this issue and give you some
sound clinical advice from their perspectives.

> Is this true, anyone?
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>> System (NTI), on the signs and symptoms of TMD....The stabilization
>>> splint was judged superior."
Amatus Cremona - 14 May 2007 19:56 GMT
I have been making NTI splints instead of the horseshoe splints for over ten
years now.  I have never had a patient want to go back to the horseshoe!
Compliance........  About 70% of the NTI's I make are worn every single day.
About 10% of the horseshoe's I made were every worn regularly.  The
horseshoe would help about 40% of the time, while the NTI helps about 95% of
the time.  I takes me 45 minutes to deliver a horseshoe that is properly
adjusted (assuming a staff person made the impressions and sent them to the
lab).  The occlusion then changed on the splint every week or two,,,,,, so
the patient had to return 8-10 times to have the occlusion adjusted as the
joint settled into a more normal position eventually (for the 40% who got
better).  The NTI settles the joint into position in a couple of weeks and
requires *almost* no adjustment after delivery.

TMJ dysfunction is basically due to:
1)  trauma (fractures and the like)
2)  growths and tumors (the dreaded "C" word)
3)  improper development (bad chromosomes)
4)  muscle spasm (the other 99% of cases)

The horseshoe does very little to help (4).  The horseshoe does a fine job
of protecting teeth from further damage.

Once we start talking about headaches, sore necks, clicking, popping,
soreness when chewing, strange phantom pains in the lower first molar
regions, teeth that hurt to chewing or cold only sometimes,,,,,, then we are
dealing with problem (4).  It has been theorized that those patients who do
better with the horseshoe (that 40%), improve only because they have
something in their mouth which disrupts their normal routine.  This leads to
remarks about ping pong balls because someone called this the ping pong ball
syndrome which means that even placing a ping pong ball in these particular
mouths would have seen the same results. [How they fit the ping pong ball
inside those mouths,,,, I have no idea  :-)  ]

The NTI therapy, takes what was previously thought to be a complex difficult
issue that required a lot of time and expense to treat, and makes it simple
and predictable.  The **"TMJ Specialists" ** [remember that there is not
such specialty], hate this.  They prefer to charge thousands for splints and
adjustments, followed by restoring all the teeth, over placing a "new"
device for a few hundred dollars.

The interesting thing is this.  Every dentist I have ever encountered who
was willing to look at the NTI with an open mind and was willing to try a
few, became a convert.  The only ones who tried it and gave up, never
studied the technique to learn what they were really trying to achieve.
They were stuck doing what they learned in dental school, even if that was
learned 35 years ago.

Signature

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Amatus

/

> Mac-  This might interest you.  This is what the inventor of the NTI
> therapeutic protocol has to say:
[quoted text clipped - 182 lines]
>>>> System (NTI), on the signs and symptoms of TMD....The stabilization
>>>> splint was judged superior."
Dartos - 14 May 2007 20:35 GMT
My experience has been the same, but for only 8 years <G>.

And though I think I have said this before, I am most thankful that you
had tried them and gave me the recommendation that I trusted to try
some myself.

I never would have dreamed that they could work like they do.

D

> I have been making NTI splints instead of the horseshoe splints for over ten
> years now.  I have never had a patient want to go back to the horseshoe!
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> They were stuck doing what they learned in dental school, even if that was
> learned 35 years ago.
The Webby - 14 May 2007 21:56 GMT
> My experience has been the same, but for only 8 years <G>.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> D

Hi D.  Can you estimate how long it might have taken for the NTI to have
made its way into your practice had the internet not have played a role
in your professional communications?  AC and Newbie may have something
to say about the way they brought the NTI into their practices.

Webby (who doesn't have any money to be made from these posts)

> > I have been making NTI splints instead of the horseshoe splints for over
> > ten
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> > They were stuck doing what they learned in dental school, even if that was
> > learned 35 years ago.
Newbie - 14 May 2007 22:23 GMT
>> My experience has been the same, but for only 8 years <G>.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>in your professional communications?  AC and Newbie may have something
>to say about the way they brought the NTI into their practices.

AC made an NTI for me, was skeptical at first and until I wore one myself
for about 4 weeks. Am now a convert and haven't made another horseshoe
in years. Guessing about 3 maybe 4 yrs. AC would more likely know
the time frame.

>Webby (who doesn't have any money to be made from these posts)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>> > They were stuck doing what they learned in dental school, even if that was
>> > learned 35 years ago.
Amatus Cremona - 15 May 2007 12:19 GMT
June of 2003.

Signature

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Amatus

/

>
>>> My experience has been the same, but for only 8 years <G>.
[quoted text clipped - 97 lines]
>>> > was
>>> > learned 35 years ago.
Dartos - 14 May 2007 23:00 GMT
> Hi D.  Can you estimate how long it might have taken for the NTI to have
> made its way into your practice had the internet not have played a role
> in your professional communications?  AC and Newbie may have something
> to say about the way they brought the NTI into their practices.
>
> Webby (who doesn't have any money to be made from these posts)

Difficult to say.  I had heard of them without the internet, but I
was very skeptical.  I'm sure it would have been 'years', but whether
2,5, or what, I don't know.

Virtually nothing in the magazines and journals, so unless I had run
into a friend at a convention, it is very possible I would have remained
a scoffing outsider.

I have said for years, that the internet has helped me a great deal in
the practice of dentistry.

:-)
D

BTW, I don't think I make any money here either.
Amatus Cremona - 15 May 2007 12:23 GMT
At the time, Jim Boyd was practicing 15 minutes from my office, and I would
not have heard of Jim without SMD.  Like Dartos, I had seen the NTI in an
advertisement, but it did not make sense at the time, so I dismissed it.
Debating Jim Boyd on SMD for 2-3 months, followed by him sending me a free
kit to try, convinced me.  Those months of hard debate on the topic were
very educational.  It also, showed me how much of our education we take at
face-value without checking to see if the concept is actually supported by
any research.

Signature

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Amatus

/

>
>> Hi D.  Can you estimate how long it might have taken for the NTI to have
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> BTW, I don't think I make any money here either.
Dartos - 15 May 2007 14:21 GMT
> Debating Jim Boyd on SMD for 2-3 months, followed by him sending me a free
> kit to try, convinced me.

Since we aren't lawyers, it's hard for us to win an argument while
being wrong.

<G>
D
Steven Fawks - 13 May 2007 01:52 GMT
> I've already paid for the splint and treatment, about three grand so I have
> to give it a try.
> Thanks for listening,
> -Mac

An NTI gives postitive results about 80% of the time with a lot less
cost.  I've been using them for about 8 years now and can't imagine
using anything else as the first line of defense with TMJ problems.

Steve
The Webby - 13 May 2007 15:07 GMT
> > I've already paid for the splint and treatment, about three grand so I have
> > to give it a try.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

Hey Steve.  In your practice, would you say that the NTI is effective
80% of the time or ????  The reason I ask is this:  we know that some
people have problems with their devices because of "fit issues".  Those
issues may have to do with the technical skill of the dentist and also
may have something to do with what is in the control of the patient (not
returning to have the fit evaluated.)  But my question was about your
practice because you (and others of smd) have been using the NTI for
eight years now.  Your technical skill for fabrication along with your
increasing knowledge base about NTI application puts you in the position
to offer a unique perspective.

We all know that if "dentist x" makes NTIs and they "just don't work"
for the patients, there must be something wrong with the picture.  (We
also need to know what the people want the device to accomplish when
they "work".)  Subjective reports of pain complicate the ability to
quantify "success" if it is only about pain.  This is an area where
objectivity is not easily accomplished.

Can you share more in-depth information from your experience?

Webby
The Webby - 13 May 2007 18:31 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-56A541.07075013052007@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,

> > > I've already paid for the splint and treatment, about three grand so I
> > > have
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Webby

P.S.  Maybe some other opinions/experiences will be offered in addition
to those from Steve.  ;-)

Webby
Dartos - 14 May 2007 18:00 GMT
> Hey Steve.  In your practice, would you say that the NTI is effective
> 80% of the time or ????  The reason I ask is this:  we know that some
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Webby

Well, at the risk of sounding like a Ronco info-mercial.....

IME, an NTI improves the situation virtually every time it is *used*.

However, as with any removable appliance, patient compliance is not
always perfect.  There are patients with jaw pain who go home with
an NTI and wear it for a few weeks or months, have the pain go away,
and stop wearing it.  Six months, or even 2-3 years later, they show
up with jaw pain again.  I see in the chart when I made them an NTI,
and I ask them how the 'little bite guard' is working. (same is true
when I recommend it for headaches, sensitive teeth, etc.)

Patient:

"Well...er...I haven't been wearing it.  I guess maybe I should try to
find it?"

Me:

"Yeah, maybe so.  I've never seen anyone miraculously stop clenching."

Then I have a few patients who bring it back in 2 days and say, "I can't
wear that thing".  They made a decision not to give it a chance.

These types of patients do probably make up about 20% of the NTIs I
make.  Regardless of how my posts read on smd, I really try not to
oversell them.  I want the patient to really want to try it so they
will give it a fair shot. It does not always make things better from
the first night.  I'm sure there is someone who won't get better
no matter who makes one or how religiously it is worn.

It's also possible to have patients with multiple symptoms who are
back after a month or two and might say, "My jaw still pops".  Well,
how is the pain?  "Oh it hardly ever hurts anymore, but it still pops".
To me, that's success, but the patient still has a complaint.

Then I have patints who frantically call the office because they can't
find/dog ate/broke their NTI and need a new one before they go to bed
that night!

As I've said before, the NTI is not a 'cure'.  It is a device that
interupts the clenching/parafuntion that many patients suffer from.
It only works when it is worn.  It will need to be remade at some time.
It may not make *all* symptoms go away completely.

For dentists to begin using them, it is much better to go to a CE course
where they are taught how to make them.  It is much more than just
putting a little acrylic in the stock shell.  Dr. Boyd does have lots
of pointers on the professional side of his website.

IME, it is still the best clenching interupter available.  BTW, it is
possible for a dentist to make an NTI clone from scratch without paying
a penny to the company.  It takes more time and isn't really cost
effective, but if you don't want to pay Jim Boyd a thing for his
invention, knock yourself out.

D
Steven Fawks - 13 May 2007 01:47 GMT
Some dentists are just too educated to see any hope in something
simple, inexpensive, and yet effective.

;-(
Steve

> I asked about the NTI device during my consult but it was dismissed as
> pseudo-science and not effective.
> Thanks,
> -Mac
Mac - 14 May 2007 13:09 GMT
"Steven Fawks" <tuthjockey@myturbonet.com> wrote in message

> Some dentists are just too educated to see any hope in something
> simple, inexpensive, and yet effective.
>
> ;-(
> Steve

Forgive me Steve, but your responses sound like advertisements.  Are you
affiliated with the NTI-tss?  Other than using it in your practice I mean.
-Mac
Dartos - 14 May 2007 16:18 GMT
Now you did it.  Brace yourself for the whole strory <G>.

When I first heard of the NTI, I was just as skeptical as anyone
else.  Dentists here and on another internet group recommended
giving them a try.  I relented (after about a year <G>) and I
was very surprised at how well they worked.  After all, it's just
a little piece of plastic.

I thought to myself, "This thing is going to revolutionize
dentistry!"

It was possible at this time to buy stock in the company, and
I did buy *1* share for $10,000.  Not much of a risk and certainly
not a situation that is going to make me rich by talking about
the NTIs on SMD.  I invested $75,000 in a local bank when it
was being started as a comparison.

So, yes, I have a very limited financial interest.  I have been a
'regular' on SMD for over 10 years.  This is a pretty small piece
of the internet, and it is the only public area that I ever say
anything about the NTI.  I seriously doubt that my conversations
here will ever make me a single dime.

Dentistry has a fairly long history of screwing up treating TMJ
problems.  Equilibrations, various splints, ortho, and even surgical
intervention have been attempted with the idea that *IF* the perfect
alignment of the jaw and teeth were obtained, a "cure" would
occur.  Trouble was, nobody could quite develop a repeatable,
predictable system for this condition (and it's variations).

Dr. Boyd blew down this house of cards by making a simple statement.
"It's not the occluSION, it's the occluDING".

IOWs, this is more of a neuro-muscular condition, than a strictly
dental condition.  Taming the forces of parafunctional activity
result in less stress on the teeth, jaws, muscles, and other structures.
This results is less pain and healing of inflamed tissues.

Traditional splints do put plastic between the teeth and provide a
flatter surface that reduces wear and lateral forces placed on the
teeth.  This is enough to help some patients.  Thus the 40-50%
'success' rates.

The NTI goes a step further by preventing any contact with posterior
teeth.  The patient simply cannot generate large clenching forces.
Everything involved with the clenching has tension reduced.  No drugs.
No ortho.  No surgery.  No equilibration.  No $40K rebuild of the
entire mouth.

Why do I talk about NTIs so much?  Simple.  It works.  It works in
a small town general practice.  It saves *ME* grief and hardship.
Patients literally try and destroy my restorations with clenching.
They crack teeth.  They clench so hard they flex the teeth to the
point of getting notches at the gumline.  They have jaw pain.  They
wake up with headaches almost every single day.  For the first 20 years
of my practice, I had little to offer patients.  I could tell them what
was happening, but a 'horseshoe' splint was about all there was.  Most
of them ended up in the drawer gathering dust.

Now it's possible to help these people and to make my restorative
treatment more comfortable and longer lasting.  That gets me excited!

When I hear people talk about CAT scans, MRIs, drugs, "TMJ Specialists",
etc., I can't help but say, "Why not try an NTI before all of this
expensive, unpredictable treatment?".

'Course, I have to realize that you don't know me and you haven't been
reading my posts over the last 10+ years.  Trusting someone over the
internet is possibly more dangerous than trusting someone in person
(however, I've had that turn out to be a bad decision too!).  I am
certainly not a "TMJ Specialist" (but they don't really exist <G>).
I'm just a small town GP who has been working with teeth (and the people
who are attached to them) for over 28 years.

To understand my perspective of TMJ Experts, you need to reread "The
Emperor's New Clothes".

Best wishes,
D

>>Some dentists are just too educated to see any hope in something
>>simple, inexpensive, and yet effective.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> affiliated with the NTI-tss?  Other than using it in your practice I mean.
> -Mac
The Webby - 14 May 2007 20:34 GMT
[clip]

> Dentistry has a fairly long history of screwing up treating TMJ
> problems.  Equilibrations, various splints, ortho, and even surgical
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Dr. Boyd blew down this house of cards by making a simple statement.
> "It's not the occluSION, it's the occluDING".

[clip]

And there was another "belief":

If the imperfect occlusion was made perfect *before* the patient had any
complaints of jaw joint pain or jaw dysfunction, "TMJ" could be
prevented **because** it was also believed there was no "cure" to jaw
joint pain or dysfunction; there was only prevention.

Fixing what wasn't "broke" had a whole new list of potential problems.  
Even if risks of severe complications are rare; why take those risks to
perfect the occlusion if occlusion does not cause the problem?

Around and around and around it can go... and where it stops ...

To have been in the position to first see the non-invasive A.G.E.LK
cause a (potentially disastrous) surgical case simply *resolve* without
surgery (a case deemed absolutely surgically necessary by OMFS) ... and
then to see the NTI take its place... well, no place else on earth, that
I know of, could people have seen these two developments take place as
we saw them right here in smd.

It's truly amazing.

Webby
The Webby - 14 May 2007 20:44 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-9F4293.12345114052007@news.phx.highwinds-media.com>,
[clip]

> To have been in the position to first see the non-invasive A.G.E.LK
> cause a (potentially disastrous) surgical case simply *resolve* without
> surgery (a case deemed absolutely surgically necessary by OMFS) ... and
> then to see the NTI take its place... [sic]

[clip]

Ouuu..  That did not turn out as I meant it.

The NTI *did not take the place* of the A.G.E.LK.  I meant that
discussions about the NTI began here in smd; the NTI then taking its
place along with the A.G.E.LK as a successful tool for the battle
against what was commonly called "TMJ" or "TMD".

W.
Steven Fawks - 15 May 2007 01:53 GMT
Luckily that never caught on around these parts before it was found
to be a little risky.  Hence my early posts on smd.

It is a real tragedy that it was done at all.

:-(

D

> If the imperfect occlusion was made perfect *before* the patient had any
> complaints of jaw joint pain or jaw dysfunction, "TMJ" could be
> prevented **because** it was also believed there was no "cure" to jaw
> joint pain or dysfunction; there was only prevention.

> Webby
Amatus Cremona - 15 May 2007 12:15 GMT
Oh YES ! ! !

I can remember lots of seminars in the 1980's teaching us that if the "bite"
was not *perfect*, that TMJ problems would begin in the future.  So Ortho,
full mouth restorations, and jaw surgery were routinely prescribed for these
people.  Some actually needed the treatment, but not for the joint.  Try to
find an OMFS today who will recommend jaw surgery to prevent a future TMJ
problem.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> [clip]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Webby
Newbie - 14 May 2007 16:52 GMT
>"Steven Fawks" <tuthjockey@myturbonet.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>affiliated with the NTI-tss?  Other than using it in your practice I mean.
>-Mac

None of us that make the NTI are employees of the company.
We are enlightened practitioners who know that the NTI works.
Hands down it is the best device currently available.

headachehope.com
Amatus Cremona - 14 May 2007 19:21 GMT
> Is it true that only around 40% of those treated with splints find relief?

If you are talking about a "Horseshoe", then yes the statistic is correct.
Mac - 15 May 2007 05:38 GMT
I'm still here listening.  And wondering if I made the right choice.
Although I wasn't ever given a choice.  This splint is making my jaw hurt
more, sore throat, dry mouth, and I'm freakin hungry!  Wearing both the uper
and lower at night make me feel like I'm clenching more, although I was
thinking I'm more of a daytime clencher.
Keep the chatter going, I'm still reading it all.
I wonder, at this point, if my insurance would cover an NTI.  If nothing
else, to experiment with.
-Mac

>> Is it true that only around 40% of those treated with splints find
>> relief?
>
> If you are talking about a "Horseshoe", then yes the statistic is correct.
Amatus Cremona - 15 May 2007 12:17 GMT
Now you know why so few patients ever actually wear their horseshoe.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> I'm still here listening.  And wondering if I made the right choice.
> Although I wasn't ever given a choice.  This splint is making my jaw hurt
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> If you are talking about a "Horseshoe", then yes the statistic is
>> correct.
Dartos - 15 May 2007 14:16 GMT
Daytime clenchers have some limiting factors while awake.  When
you go to sleep, those limiting factors disappear and the clenching
can be 10-14X greater than anything you were doing while awake.

The best way to reduce the clenching is to take the posterior teeth
out of contact.

Only one way to do that, and it isn't with a horseshoe splint.

These dentists who make a living out of treating TMJ problems have
usually spent years and thousands of dollars learning the process.
The problem is that they have been learning theories and techniques
that are not very successful in treating the condition.  They believe
that TMJD is complex and hard to treat.  How could you expect them
to toss away much of what they have spent their carreer learning?
It gets to be a religion.  A religion that if practiced faithfully
enough, may help a few poor souls while ignoring the masses.

It is still a neuro-muscular condition, and it doesn't have any
known 'cure', so I'm not saying I understand the condition fully.
Your "TMJ" dentist could make me look very stupid in a debate
over the issue.  But I do know when something works.
I know that if you reduce the clenching, things get better.
I now have a simple, effective tool to accomplish that task.

D

And look, one whole post without mention of an N** <G>

> I'm still here listening.  And wondering if I made the right choice.
> Although I wasn't ever given a choice.  This splint is making my jaw hurt
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> else, to experiment with.
> -Mac
Newbie - 15 May 2007 14:45 GMT
>D
>
>And look, one whole post without mention of an N** <G>

News <G>roup ?  ;-D
grubertm@gmail.com - 15 May 2007 23:25 GMT
> > Is it true that only around 40% of those treated with splints find relief?
>
> If you are talking about a "Horseshoe", then yes the statistic is correct.

I'd be curious to know the NTI success rate. I was talking to Dr Boyd
today asking whether I am just the odd one out who needs many NTI
adjustments to make it work, but since he's dealing with the tricky
cases that would be a biased sample. What's the success rate among SMD
folks then ?
Steven Fawks - 16 May 2007 00:55 GMT
> I'd be curious to know the NTI success rate. I was talking to Dr Boyd
> today asking whether I am just the odd one out who needs many NTI
> adjustments to make it work, but since he's dealing with the tricky
> cases that would be a biased sample. What's the success rate among SMD
> folks then ?

Virtually 100% with a cooperative patient.

Patients that only wear them when something hurts, or patients
that don't wear them at all, don't do so well.

My guess is that about 80% of the patients wear it and relax.

I would also admit that there may be a few in that 20% that just
wouldn't get better no matter what, but I don't think it's very
many.

I had a patient this morning who had an NTI for a couple of months.
She was complaining of her jaw hurting.  She admitted to not wearing
the NTI very much.  Then she had a Chiropractor jack with her joint
yesterday!  AARRGGG!  I told her the NTI is not like aspirin that
you use only when there is pain.  It must be used every night to
keep the strain off of the structures.  She's a class III with
posterior crossbite and has very worn, almost flat posterior
teeth at 33.

Another patient who had one for just a few weeks was glowing.  She
had awakened with headaches almost daily for 20+ years.  She says
they are *GONE*.  Along with her neck pain and tenseness in the
sides and back of her head.

Another patient was in with her 9 yo son.  She asked me if I would
make an NTI for her niece when she visits from out of state next
week.  (I had made one for the mom several years ago.)

I also made a lower slide bar for one of my assistants who has started
nipping her tongue wearing just her upper NTI.

Typical day in the neighborhood.

:-)
Steve
Mac - 16 May 2007 04:29 GMT
Okay, saw my Doc today and asked him directly if the NTI would work for me.
He actually approves of the NTI under certain conditions (not surprising).
He says I have a significant derangement of the jaw and joints and the first
thing he wants is to train my mouth to rest in a non-clenched position
(daytime), which I think the splint is helping with.
I'm still not convinced either way.  The only sure way to know, for each
individual, would be to try both and see which works.  Uhhg, a lengthy
procedure at best.
As I said, I have already paid for this treatment so I might as well give it
a try.
-Mac
The Webby - 16 May 2007 04:34 GMT
> Okay, saw my Doc today and asked him directly if the NTI would work for me.
> He actually approves of the NTI under certain conditions (not surprising).
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a try.
> -Mac

In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.

Webby
Mac - 16 May 2007 13:54 GMT
>> Okay, saw my Doc today and asked him directly if the NTI would work for
>> me.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Webby

I might need help with this acronym Webby.  Also, I don't see the Doc for
another month.
-Mac
Newbie - 16 May 2007 17:21 GMT
>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>
>Webby

A Guarantee Everything Looks Kosher ?
Tim Dixon - 16 May 2007 18:00 GMT
>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>
>>Webby
>
> A Guarantee Everything Looks Kosher ?

Endo-oral Gnathological Apparatus by Prof Luksich

Just to keep things in perspective.
Dartos - 16 May 2007 19:09 GMT
Would be willing to bet money that very few dentist
outside of smd has ever heard of it.

;-)
D

>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Just to keep things in perspective.
Newbie - 16 May 2007 19:56 GMT
>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Just to keep things in perspective.

OK but I get EGAPL from that.
Tim Dixon - 16 May 2007 22:38 GMT
>>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> OK but I get EGAPL from that.

"Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
Amatus Cremona - 17 May 2007 12:46 GMT
> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK

AGELK  =  Intra-Oral Occlusal Appliance designed by Dr. Luksich.
Mac - 17 May 2007 15:00 GMT
>> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
>
> AGELK  =  Intra-Oral Occlusal Appliance designed by Dr. Luksich.

A deprogrammer?
Newbie - 17 May 2007 20:02 GMT
>>> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
>>
>> AGELK  =  Intra-Oral Occlusal Appliance designed by Dr. Luksich.
>
>A deprogrammer?

Exactly.
The Webby - 17 May 2007 21:05 GMT
> >> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
> >
> > AGELK  =  Intra-Oral Occlusal Appliance designed by Dr. Luksich.
>
> A deprogrammer?

Mac, I was being serious when I mentioned this.  I know there's been a
little poking of fun about it (AGELK); but, it's a very valid treatment.  
Unfortunately, it just isn't readily available in the US (assuming you
are in the US).

Dr. Stradaioli (of Italy) uses in his practice, with very good success,
the AGELK or the NTI and sometimes he uses a combination of both.  Had
he not been involved in smd, he would not have known about the NTI when
he did (in about 1995-1996).  He knows Dr. Boyd, and they have discussed
AGELK and NTI together.  

I wish he were still able to find time to participate in smd so that he
could respond to your situation from his online-POV (without the benefit
of seeing you in person).

Webby
Newbie - 17 May 2007 19:55 GMT
>> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
>
>AGELK  =  Intra-Oral Occlusal Appliance designed by Dr. Luksich.

IOOADL ? = AGELK ?

Man, my alphabet learnin' needs remediation

Look guys I was jes ribbin' ya'll...

Still don't get where the 'K' comes in  ;-D
Tim Dixon - 17 May 2007 19:59 GMT
>>> "Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Still don't get where the 'K' comes in  ;-D

I believe it is from LuKsich
Newbie - 17 May 2007 17:56 GMT
>>>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>"Apparecchio Gnatologico Endoorale del Prof. Luksich"= A.G.E.LK

Tim, I was yanking your chain dude...
Tim Dixon - 17 May 2007 18:00 GMT
>>>>> On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:34:05 -0700, The Webby
>>>>> <tmjiatroepidemic@cox.net>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Tim, I was yanking your chain dude...

I knew you were- ;-)

I just put that up for Mac's benefit.  You guys all know what its about.

Do you suppose if i had gone through with the planned and deemed medically
necessary surgical amputation of my condyles I would be any better today
because of that procedure?  And to take it a step further, do you think
there would have been any need to completely rehab my mouth with the
restorative work that was successfully accomplished following agelk
treatment?
Mac - 17 May 2007 14:58 GMT
>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>
>>Webby
>
> A Guarantee Everything Looks Kosher ?

Lol, okay.  I thought it was yet another appliance.
Tim Dixon - 17 May 2007 16:01 GMT
>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Lol, okay.  I thought it was yet another appliance.

{I used an A.G.E.LK for a one year period in the hope of avoiding
unnecessary maxillofacial surgery, and that hope was completely fulfilled}

What is the A.G.E. LK?
It is a device for gnathological use, simple and versatile to use.

Why  the "Gothic Arch"?

Prof. Luksich has been gradually and radically changed Gysi's device: with
the term "Gothic Arch" generally refers to the special technique and
relative device developed by the Swiss Alfred Gysi in 1910 solely to detect
the centric relationship only in fully edentate patients, using a graphic
tracing whose configuration is very similar to that of a Gothic Arch.

The structural features of Gysi's device have now reached a technical level
of use which is extremely linear, rapid and precise, no longer limited to
merely the detection of the centric relationship in edentate patients, but
extending to the full range of gnathological registrations and applicable in
all cases.

What does the A.G.E.LK consist of?

It basically consits of two parts:
a tracing point applied to the upper maxilla;
a tracing plane applied to the mandible.

These two parts are fitted onto two support structures built individually on
the two antagonistic upper and lower arches. These structures vary according
to the circumstances and the inventiveness of the person making them, but
must in any case serve two basic functions: maximum stability and proper
retention. These conditions are essential in order to take advantage of the
absolute precision of the A.G.E.LK.

What does the A.G.E.LK do?

It takes static and dynamic intermaxillary measurements, such as:
determinig the resting height;
determining the free way space;
determining the normal occlusive height with respect to the habitual height;
recording the centric relationship;
recording the mandibular dynamic in all possible directions (protrusive,
retrusive and lateral);
determining the physiological guide for checking and casting the occlusion
surfaces and incisor, canine and group disclusions.

What are possible uses of the A.G.E. LK?

Assuming that gnathology is the prevailing area of stomatology, it is
obvious that the A.G.E.LK can be used in all cases in which the normal
intermaxillary ratios with respect to habitual ratios must be determined,
such as:

In prosthetic and surgical orthognathodontia.
In prosthetic rehabilitation (permanent, removable, mixed and implants) when
the prostheses involve both arches or even a single arch.
In parodontology.
In gnathological alog-dysfunctional syndromes as a valid
diagnostic-therapeutic tool.
As a unique and rational bite plane.

What are the features of the A.G.E.LK?

It has the advantage of being extremely simple to use, requiring no special
aptitude by the operator.
All registrations are made freely by the patient, without the slightest
interference by the physician.
It allows extremely precise and constantly repeatable biomechanical
measurements.
All registrations made on the patient are transferred to the dental
technician in the laboratory with no margin for error.
It may be used to equal satisfaction in patients who are fully edentate,
partially edentate, or posses all teeth or the arch.
It may be used not only with individual or average value articulators, but
also with simple occlusors depending on the intended purpose.

You will find out that if you use AGELK:

 1.. condyles are not "essential" in determining the jaw position;
 2.. the movements and the exercises the patient performs allow total
relaxation of the patient's muscles : just a few days are sufficient if the
patient is asymptomatic, ten minutes three time a day for some months if
more serious symptoms are present.
Differently from other relaxation systems, exercises with AGELK can be
easily done at home,without the patient's staying in the dentist's chair for
a long time
The Webby - 17 May 2007 16:26 GMT
> >>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Lol, okay.  I thought it was yet another appliance.

It is a device of exceptional value; and here in smd, it was introduced
via a regular participant back during the 1990s.  He lives and practices
in northern Italy.

I have seen the device work its wonders.

Webby
Newbie - 17 May 2007 20:03 GMT
>>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Lol, okay.  I thought it was yet another appliance.

I was ribbin' the regs...

Didn't mean to mislead you.
The Webby - 17 May 2007 20:40 GMT
> >>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Didn't mean to mislead you.

Back in 1998, while in Italy studying "TMJ" and its "treatment issues"
with Prof. Luksich and Dr. Stradaioli, I discovered that acronyms can be
*very confusing* when going from one language to another!
 
The English (language) acyonym "TMJ" translates into "ATM" in Italian.  
Where I live (in the USA), "ATM" is the acronym for "automatic teller
machine".

"TMJ" has long been referred to as the acronym for "the money joint".

Now go figure the irony in that one!!!

Webby
Newbie - 17 May 2007 21:53 GMT
>> >>>In other words, you need A.G.E.LK ....  ask him.
>> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Webby

You mean it's not:
Temple of the Money grubbing Jack- @$$ ?
The Webby - 17 May 2007 21:59 GMT
> >> >> On Tue, 15 May 2007 20:34:05 -0700, The Webby
> >> >> <tmjiatroepidemic@cox.net>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> You mean it's not:
> Temple of the Money grubbing Jack- @$$ ?

Well... I suppose it certainly could be!!!!  ;-)
Mac - 18 May 2007 14:44 GMT
No worries :-)
 
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