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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / February 2007

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Is this a mistake of an inexperienced surgeon or ...?

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JimSocal - 14 Feb 2007 20:00 GMT
Whenever I get gum surgery or implant surgery from my grad-student
dentist, I always end up choking towards the end of the session - an
hour and a half or so...

I always seem to get a lot of saliva and/or crap from the surgery
(blood, etc.?) in my throat and I find it difficult to swallow and end
up coughing/choking. I do my best to control it as he is suturing or
finishing up but it becomes very uncomfortable.

Should I demand to let him let me get up and rinse/spit, or what?

I have only had this problem with my implant and related surgeries by
this grad-student dentist and I don't know if it's because I've never
had such long sessions before, or if it's his or the assistant's
inexperience in getting me "suctioned" properly or ...?

Yesterday I had the gums cut open to reveal the 4 implants I had in
July (to prepare for crowns, finally!) and I was choking like crazy at
one point so he said, "Do you need to rinse?" and before I could say
yes, he said "We're almost done..."...

so I waited... another HALF HOUR of choking!

I hate to be a difficult patient so I just put up with it, but this
seems somewhat abusive and in retrospect I think I should have
demanded to get up and spit...

What is a patient to do?
JimSocal - 23 Feb 2007 08:24 GMT
Why won't anyone touch this thread?
It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
surgeon, and no one wants to come out and say that.
or...?
Steven Fawks - 23 Feb 2007 13:05 GMT
> Why won't anyone touch this thread?
> It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
> surgeon, and no one wants to come out and say that.
> or...?

Well, first off, I never read the original post.  Second, I'm not
a surgeon who places implants.

In reading the post, it sounds like a pretty simple explanation.
If you only have trouble with this one dentist, then it is some
combination of taking too long with the procedure, not keeping you
rinsed and suctioned well, and not giving you any rest periods.

Students are usually slower than experienced practitioners.  That
may be the main reason for your problem.  You probably don't want
him to speed up on your treatment.

You should have a discussion about this problem before the appt.
so he can find ways of making you more comfortable.

One of the trade offs when using dental schools for treatment.

JMO,
Steve
JimSocal - 23 Feb 2007 18:41 GMT
>> Why won't anyone touch this thread?
>> It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>JMO,
>Steve
Thanks for the response, Steve.
I guess you pointed to the nature of the problem, and the probable
cause and solution.

As to Webby's question as to what I think is the mistake, it seems to
me that it is a mistake to let so much saliva gather in your patient's
throat that he is choking, and then not do anything about it!

This was not during implant surgery, if it was, I think the prof or
assistant would have addressed it. This was when he uncovered the
implants by cutting back my gums where he had covered them months
before to prevent infection.

What I was wondering is whether or not having a patient start choking
on saliva is common, and what you should do about it, and what the
patient should do.

The problem was, my mouth was full of cotton, so I could not speak,
the surgeon asked me if I needed a break and before I could say YES!,
he said, "This will just take a few more minutes, I'm almost done", so
I allowed him to continue (what choice did I really have?), and then
it took not just a few more minutes but another half an hour in which
I kept choking every few minutes and was using all my energy and
strength of mind not to allow myself to cough from the choking on
saliva in my throat. I was trying to swallow but could not swallow it
all and it kept gathering there.

I won't see this surgeon again until May when he cuts back the gums on
the upper 2 implants I just had. I will try to remember to tell him,
"Please, if I start to choke, let me take a break!"

I think it is just a matter of him taking longer than a regular
dentist, and then not being willing to stop to let me take a quick 1
minute break. Next time I'll tell him if I can remember.

I was just wondering if this was a common situation, or do I just have
more saliva build up than most, or is the dentist not suctioning
properly, or ?
The Webby - 23 Feb 2007 15:42 GMT
> Why won't anyone touch this thread?
> It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
> surgeon, and no one wants to come out and say that.
> or...?

I just saw the thread.  

Is your "student" surgeon a resident in an Oral and Maxillofacial
Surgery program?

http://www.aaoms.org/the_oms.php

What mistake do you believe took place?  

Webby
Steven Bornfeld - 23 Feb 2007 20:42 GMT
> Why won't anyone touch this thread?
> It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
> surgeon, and no one wants to come out and say that.
> or...?

    There really is no way to know.  And as a gp I really don't have the
professional standing to pass judgement on surgeons who presumably know
the ins and outs of this procedure.  IOW, I could just shoot my mouth
off, but what good would it do?
    OK, I'll shoot my mouth off.  I haven't had that many patients going in
for sinus lifts.  I tell them that the attitudes about entering the
maxillary sinus have changed tremendously in the 31 years I've been out
of dental school, and the success rates for this kind of surgery are
reported to be high.  BUT::
    Given my cautious nature, and my training that inadvertently entering
the maxillary antrum during an upper molar extraction was one of those
things to recoil in horror from, I also tell my patients that implants
are wonderful things, and I would not hesitate to have one placed in my
mouth, nor would I hesitate to get a bone graft.  A sinus lift however
is where I PERSONALLY would draw the line, because sinus sufferers seem
to be such a miserably suffering lot that I don't wish to tempt fate.
This is a PERSONAL, not a PROFESSIONAL judgement that I would make for
myself.
    When you add to the mix the existing history of sinus problems, it is
something that just seems like looking for trouble here.  Everything may
have been done perfectly according to Hoyle (or not) but I wouldn't look
for tsuris in this way.
     I hope you recover promptly.

Steve
JimSocal - 24 Feb 2007 09:19 GMT
>> Why won't anyone touch this thread?
>> It leads me to believe that it IS the mistake of an inexperienced
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>Steve
Wish I'd read this before; I would have at least considered it more
carefully. I was sold on the idea (by my surgeon and his prof) that
this is a very simple and not very invasive procedure; certainly among
sinus lifts, the type I had done is the least invasive type.

I thought long and hard about it but in the end I decided it was the
only way I could get some teeth in my upper right jaw, and I have
exactly ZERO molars there now. If I had at least one or two already, I
would not have done this. But having NONE, it seemed worth some risk.

In the end, even with your opinion, I'd have probably done it anyway,
for the above reason.

I felt the same way you do: Why risk messing with my already
problematic sinuses?

I did read in at least 2 places that it can happen that the sinus lift
HELPS the sinuses, and this also was told to me by my surgeon.

So, in the end, despite the risk, I felt it was pretty much necessary,
given my lack of molars to chew with on my right side of the my mouth.
Steven Fawks - 24 Feb 2007 13:28 GMT
> So, in the end, despite the risk, I felt it was pretty much necessary,
> given my lack of molars to chew with on my right side of the my mouth.

A year from now, you may be tickled pink.

Steve
Steven Bornfeld - 24 Feb 2007 17:12 GMT
>> Steve
> Wish I'd read this before; I would have at least considered it more
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> So, in the end, despite the risk, I felt it was pretty much necessary,
> given my lack of molars to chew with on my right side of the my mouth.

    If you have made the decision with full knowledge of the
reasonably-predictable risks, then you have done the right thing.
    I don't know about "improving" problematic sinuses with sinus lifts.
You have to be very careful about this kind of claim--it's self-serving
and if it is used as an incentive to encourage patients to have the
surgery it's IMO dangerously close to practice outside the scope of
practice.  And if the sinuses go south, it is likely the ENT specialist
and not the OMFS who is going to have to get involved at some point.
    My thoughts are that the sinus lift is unlikely to have much of an
effect on the overall sinus condition one way or another.
    Hope things go your way.

Steve
JimSocal - 24 Feb 2007 09:22 GMT
p.s. Dr. Bornfeld, is it possible you did not read the OP and just
assumed this was about the sinus lift operation?
In reality, this post was specifically about the idea of my surgeon
not stopping to let me swallow or rinse when I was getting my gum
surgery this time, or my implant surgery last time.
It wasn't about whether he did a good job on the implants or sinus
lift.

However, your comments on that were still welcome! ;-)
Steven Bornfeld - 24 Feb 2007 17:18 GMT
> p.s. Dr. Bornfeld, is it possible you did not read the OP and just
> assumed this was about the sinus lift operation?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> However, your comments on that were still welcome! ;-)

Definitely--I was replying only to your prior post.  As far as choking,
it is sometimes difficult to interrupt surgery at a particular point.
Some surgeons may be more or less sensitive to discomfort of any kind
esp. intraoperatively.  Certainly if there is debris causing discomfort
it should be possible to have it syringed and suctioned away.  It should
also be possible to give the conscious patient a few moments to rest at
various points during the procedure.  It's a matter of degree--I have a
patient who demands to be able to rinse every 10 seconds--I'm trying to
decrease this interval and she's trying to decrease it.  In this case
I'm clearly dealing with something other than a dental issue, but I (and
she) still have to deal with it; we try to compromise to the extent that
neither of us are TOO unhappy.  I usually finish the visit with a knot
in my stomach though.

Steve
JimSocal - 27 Feb 2007 18:46 GMT
>Definitely--I was replying only to your prior post.  As far as choking,
>it is sometimes difficult to interrupt surgery at a particular point.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Steve
Well, I think you are an extremely exceptional dentist to put up with
that! Good for you!

I think I was an exceptionally good patient to put up with 1 and 1/2 -
2 and 1/2 hours of implant surgery and then on another occassion, gum
surgery, with NO break, and choking on saliva or whatever it is
causing it.

Next time I'm going to say, before we get started, that if I start to
choke, he is to give it to me at the earliest possible time after I
start to choke. I would have thought that need not be said, but....
 
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