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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2007

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quitting sugar to stop tooth cavities - affective ?

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odedwolff@gmail.com - 20 Jan 2007 20:00 GMT
Hi all.
Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
expensive, painful and
it just doesn't seem to succeed in preventing cavities.
I am so sick and frustrated of this situatation I am considering
quitting sugar altogether.
Actually the only thing that is keeping from doing so is that I am not
sure how affective this is -
I am looking for any evidence or research about quitting sugar in this
context, suprisingly it seems that ppl are
only intersted in quitting sugar in order to lose weight....
Any idead and comments are welcome.
Thanx.
Steven Bornfeld - 20 Jan 2007 21:30 GMT
> Hi all.
> Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Any idead and comments are welcome.
> Thanx.

    "Conventional" (read: "restorative") dentistry was never intended to
prevent cavities.  Restorative dentistry at the BEST will restore form
and function to the dentition in a way that will not act to ENCOURAGE
the formation of new cavities.
    Caries is a multi-factorial disease.  It involves microbes, oral
biology, host resistance factors, and modifying influences.  What this
means in plain english is that besides diet (sugars and other
fermentable carbohydrates and their variants), saliva quality and
quantity, germs, antibodies, oral hygiene, fluorides, periodic
professional cleanings and probably some other genetic factors all
influence whether or not you will get cavities.
    Decreasing the number of exposures per day of your teeth to fermentable
carbohydrate (starches as well as sugars) will help.  But so will proper
oral hygiene and topical fluoride agents.  Regular checkups will make
restoration of any cavities you continue to have easier and more likely
to be successful long-term.

Good luck,
Steve
odedwolff@gmail.com - 21 Jan 2007 07:48 GMT
> > Hi all.
> > Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> professional cleanings and probably some other genetic factors all
> influence whether or not you will get cavities.

>     Decreasing the number of exposures per day of your teeth to fermentable
> carbohydrate (starches as well as sugars) will help.  But so will proper
> oral hygiene and topical fluoride agents.  Regular checkups will make
> restoration of any cavities you continue to have easier and more likely
> to be successful long-term.

Of course, oral hygiene and topical fluoride agents are taken care of.
I appreciate your reply, however, this is all common knowledge, and
just about every kid knows all of that.
My question was, Since all these conventional measures don't seem to
leave my mouth very healthy, what else can
I do, and more specifically, will quitting sugar altogether make a real
difference.
Thanks again for your reply, but that just not what I asked.
Steven Bornfeld - 21 Jan 2007 16:54 GMT
>>> Hi all.
>>> Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> difference.
> Thanks again for your reply, but that just not what I asked.

    If you cut out all fermentable carbohydrate (sugars and starches) you
will certainly cut down on decay.  As a practical matter this is very
difficult to do.
    Caries activity is highest for 20 minutes or so after ingesting a
carbohydrate load.  Foods with high substantivity (dried fruit, hard
candies) that bathe the teeth in high sugar concentration  over an
extended period of time can be expected to promote caries better than
those with lower substantivity--such as fresh fruit and juices that are
in the mouth and gone.  Frequency is almost certainly more important in
cariogenesis than total carbohydrate ingestion.
    Assuming you are right about having first-rate oral hygiene and optimum
fluoride use.  However, if just about every kid knows this, I can assure
you that few children or adults act as if they do.  Assuming you walk
the walk and your oral hygiene is ideal, then switching the frequency of
sweets is worth trying before trying a carbohydrate-free diet.

Good luck,
Steve
odedwolff@gmail.com - 21 Jan 2007 19:52 GMT
Thanks !
Sorry if I was a little impetiance, it just drives me nuts, having my
teeth butchered by dentists that charges me prime money and on the long
run seem
to achieve absolutly nothing (medicaly). Call this what you want, but
modern medicine it ain't.
Steven Bornfeld - 21 Jan 2007 23:16 GMT
> Thanks !
> Sorry if I was a little impetiance, it just drives me nuts, having my
> teeth butchered by dentists that charges me prime money and on the long
> run seem
> to achieve absolutly nothing (medicaly). Call this what you want, but
> modern medicine it ain't.

    I would be the last to say there is no butchery out there.  FWIW,
slowly and steadily decay is being approached more as a treatable
condition medically, and not merely microcarpentry.  Hope we see it in
practice in our lifetimes.

Steve
Stormin Mormon - 24 Jan 2007 14:47 GMT
After years of my dentist encouraging me to give up sucking on
life savers, I changed dental care from high fluoride Prevident.
Changed to using baking soda on my tooth brush. He kept talking
about sugars decomposing to phosphoric acid. Few better ways to
neutralize phosphoric acid than applying baking soda.

Yesterday was the second hygenist appointment since the change.
Nearly no stuff scraped off my teeth. They did find the two
places where I knew the plastic fillings were chipped, and one
other place they want to repair. These will have to wait a bit.

Have you considered that instead of "harder, faster, more" that
you should try a different approach? If the prescription high
fluoride doesn't work, try....

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

> Of course, oral hygiene and topical fluoride agents are taken care of.
> I appreciate your reply, however, this is all common knowledge, and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> difference.
> Thanks again for your reply, but that just not what I asked.
odedwolff@gmail.com - 25 Jan 2007 07:56 GMT
On Jan 24, 4:47 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61-&spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> After years of my dentist encouraging me to give up sucking on
> life savers, I changed dental care from high fluoride Prevident.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> you should try a different approach? If the prescription high
> fluoride doesn't work, try....

Absolutely - That's exactly what I am looking for - a different
approach.
The last paragraph is my thoughts exactly.
Unfortunately, I still don't have enough information, but I am on it.
the replies I got about baking soda are a new idea for me - i will
certainly consider it seriously.
Also, I am thinking about replacing  much of my sugar consumption as
possible with Xylitol,
which lately I became aware of and still learning about.
BTW, is baking soda considered safe ? has it any side affects ?
Thank you
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 25 Jan 2007 20:30 GMT
> On Jan 24, 4:47 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
> <cayoung61-&spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> BTW, is baking soda considered safe ? has it any side affects ?
> Thank you

    Well, obviously you'll want to minimize your ingestion if you are on a
sodium restricted diet.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Stormin Mormon - 26 Jan 2007 03:15 GMT
I don't know anything about Xylitol, so I'll leave that to others
to comment.

My present dentist doesn't like me using baking soda. At least
one of the dentists on this group has mentioned baking soda in a
positive light.

What I do know, from my own mouth, is that after using baking
soda, the hygenist appointment brings up a lot less stuff that
has to be scraped off my teeth. Also the healthy color is coming
back. My teeth had been chalky white near the gum line.

If you don't like baking soda, you can always go back. I have no
financial interest in your teeth. My dentist, who reccomends
fluoride, gets paid by the cavity. I think that's signifigant.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

> Also, I am thinking about replacing  much of my sugar consumption as
> possible with Xylitol,
> which lately I became aware of and still learning about.
> BTW, is baking soda considered safe ? has it any side affects ?
> Thank you
odedwolff@gmail.com - 26 Jan 2007 20:27 GMT
On Jan 26, 5:15 am, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61-&spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know anything about Xylitol, so I'll leave that to others
> to comment.
> If you don't like baking soda, you can always go back. I have no
> financial interest in your teeth. My dentist, who reccomends
> fluoride, gets paid by the cavity. I think that's signifigant.

Did you quit using flouride or do you use both fouride and baking soda
combined (today i've seen at the pharmacy a toothpaste that
have them both. BTW - the only tooth paste I could find that contains
baking soda and no flouride was for kids...  I bought it anyway.
The chewing gum flavoure takes some getting used to...
Stormin Mormon - 27 Jan 2007 14:20 GMT
When I say "baking soda", I mean the powder that comes in the
yellow Arm and Hammer box. I havn't used fluoride in any form in
about a year.

I'm surprised that a kid tooth paste would be sold without
fluoride.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

> On Jan 26, 5:15 am, "Stormin Mormon"
> <cayoung61-&spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Did you quit using flouride or do you use both fouride and baking soda
> combined (today i've seen at the pharmacy a toothpaste that
> have them both. BTW - the only tooth paste I could find that contains
> baking soda and no flouride was for kids...  I bought it anyway.
> The chewing gum flavoure takes some getting used to...
Jim - 22 Jan 2007 06:13 GMT
You have the right idea, but it's not entirely that simple.  The major
caries risk factor for many  people is diet.  Saliva loses its ability
to buffer acid if a person consumes sugar (and carbohydrates)
throughout the day.  This phenomenon is described as a "Stefan Curve."

If you have a lot of cavities and restorations you should cut out
between meal sugar consumption (including sugar-containing beverages).
Brush after each meal with a fluoride toothpaste for at least two
minutes each time with a soft toothbrush, and floss daily.  I also
recommend brushing before you go to bed at night.  The topical
applications of fluoride (in toothpaste) are important.  If you can
get your dentist to write you a prescription for Peridex mouth rinse
(a topical antimicrobial), I also recommend that you use it once a
week.  A 16 ounce bottle will last you for 32 weeks.

James  

>Hi all.
>Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Any idead and comments are welcome.
>Thanx.
odedwolff@gmail.com - 22 Jan 2007 09:54 GMT
> You have the right idea, but it's not entirely that simple.  The major
> caries risk factor for many  people is diet.  Saliva loses its ability
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> James

Thanks you.
Once again, all of this is taken care of, as it is common knowledge.
I am trying to examine other solutions, because this one failed, as far
as I am concerned.
nyscof - 22 Jan 2007 12:23 GMT
Sugar isn't the only cavity culprit - poor diet is also.

Vital nutrients for teeth are calcium magnesium phosphorous, vitamins
A, C, D, K and other essential nutrients.

Teeth are constantly de- and re-mineralizing all day - which means
nutrients are leaving and entering your teeth all day.
If you don't have enough of teeth building constituents in your saliva
(or diet) there's going to be a negative balance and your teeth will
decay.

Also, if you are on any medicines or have a condition where saliva flow
is a problem, your teeth might suffer.

If you are eating the required 7 - 9 servings of fruits and vegetables
a day, consuming all the calcium your body needs and getting sufficient
Vitamin D from sunshine or from diet as well as whole grains and other
essential nutrients and brushing the debris off your teeth, you
probably wouldn't have so much tooth decay

And fluoride is neither a nutrient nor essential for healthy teeth

New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc.
http://www.orgsites.com/ny/nyscof

Fluoridation News Releases
http://tinyurl.com/6kqtu

Tooth Decay Crises in Fluoridated Areas
http://www.fluoridenews.blogspot.com/

Fluoride Action Network http://www.FluorideAction.Net

Fluoride Journal http://www.FluorideResearch.Org

On Jan 22, 4:54 am, "odedwo...@gmail.com" <odedwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > You have the right idea, but it's not entirely that simple.  The major
> > caries risk factor for many  people is diet.  Saliva loses its ability
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I am trying to examine other solutions, because this one failed, as far
> as I am concerned.
Dartos - 22 Jan 2007 21:10 GMT
> Thanks you.
> Once again, all of this is taken care of, as it is common knowledge.
> I am trying to examine other solutions, because this one failed, as far
> as I am concerned.

I'm not trying to be a smart a.s, but....

What part has failed?  Do you sip on soda (or other drink sweetened
with sugar)?  Do you frequently use breath mints or cough drops?  Do you
snack between meals?  Do you floss (at least daily)?  Do you brush
after every time you eat?  Have all of the decay problems been properly
detected and restored?  Have you been councled on diet and home care?
Were you prescribed a fluoride gel for home use (custom fitted trays
are nice too)?  Are you on medication which dries out your mouth?

D
odedwolff@gmail.com - 23 Jan 2007 07:34 GMT
> > Thanks you.

sorry for that extra 's'

> > Once again, all of this is taken care of, as it is common knowledge.
> > I am trying to examine other solutions, because this one failed, as far
> > as I am concerned.I'm not trying to be a smart a.s, but....
>
> What part has failed?
My teeth are regularly treated by a dentist, and still in poor shape -
sensitive, aching, especially those
that WERE threated (fillings or root canal)
Do you sip on soda (or other drink sweetened
> with sugar)?
just plain water
Do you frequently use breath mints or cough drops?
just sugarless gum
Do you
> snack between meals?
Yes, I do , which is exactly why I raised the question in the first
place. I would try
to cut sugar altogether, but I would rather see some evidence that it
will do good.
There seem to be many assumptions in dentistry that are held as truths.
>>Do you floss (at least daily)?
No, I have such narrow space between my teeth it is impossible for me
(tried it many time)
You probably have a point here - but that just makes it more necessary
for me to find an alternative.
>>Do you brush
> after every time you eat?
Twice daily - can't brush on work, which is where I spend most my
waking hours...
>>Have all of the decay problems been properly
> detected and restored?
The Doctor seems to be a professional, I don't think the problem is
with the quality of her work, but
with the fact that is just not the right solution for me (drilling and
filling)
> Have you been councled on diet and home care?
This is not available where I live, but I am trying to educate myself
as best as I can about nutrition,
which I am sure has a key role here.
> Were you prescribed a fluoride gel for home use (custom fitted trays
> are nice too)?
I use washing fluid that contains fluoride. (plus the toothpaste)
>Are you on medication which dries out your mouth?
None, but I do a lot of exercise. do you think that may have something
to do  ?
> D
Thanks
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 23 Jan 2007 15:09 GMT
>>>Thanks you.
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> You probably have a point here - but that just makes it more necessary
> for me to find an alternative.

    If your cavities tend to be between the teeth, I think we've found your
problem.
    Usually it's not the tightness of the spaces per se; but often
roughness of any fillings in between the teeth that leads to shredding.
    There are shred-resistant flosses out there--most available probably
being Glide.  The other problem may be your technique, and your dentist
should spend some time with you making sure you're flossing correctly.
I have never found a patient whose teeth I haven't been able to floss
between, except in those cases where the fillings are so ragged that the
floss keeps shredding.
    Decreasing the frequency of snacks is likely to help, but you'll likely
still have a problem if you can't use something to clean between your
teeth.  I assume you are fairly young and don't have significant gum
recession; some patients can use something called a Proxabrush which
does a nice job cleaning between teeth, but not everyone has enough
space to use this.  In any case, your dentist and/or hygienist should be
able and willing to work on strategies that will enable you to clean
between your teeth.  That, coupled with decreasing between-meal snacks,
should help.  And unless your workplace has no washroom, you should be
able to brush (and floss!) after lunch.

>  >>Do you brush
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>  None, but I do a lot of exercise. do you think that may have something
> to do  ?

No.

Steve

>>D
>
> Thanks

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dartos - 23 Jan 2007 15:21 GMT
It's very difficult to diagnose everything over the internet.
Much of what you are doing sounds fine.  A couple more questions
and comments:

When exercising, do you drink Gatorade, Powerade, etc.?
They aren't much better for your teeth than Coke or Pepsi.

In 27 years of dental practice, I've never seen anyones teeth
so tight together that they could not floss.  You need some
help learning how and possibly some experimentation on which
floss to use (many different types, thicknesses, waxed/unwaxed,
Gortex fibers, etc.).  This should be a normal part of your
dentist's office care (not unavailable where you live<g>).

*ANY* sugar (including fermentatble carbs) exposure between meals
will feed the bacteria and create an acid environment with leads
to decay.  A few nibbles through the morning, afternoon, and evening
can be just as problematic as sipping on soda (soft drinks are just
the most common cause, not the only cause).

Another thing to consider is the total oral environment.  The bacteria
that are present in your mouth are the ones that have been thriving
under the present conditions.  You need to change the environment
in your mouth, and eradicate as many of the harmful bugs as possible.
*If* you truly brush well, learn to floss, use a topical fluoride
(not OTC stuff), possibly use a chlorhexadine rinse, and eliminate
all decay producing drinks/foods between meals, you should see a
big change over the next few years.

The only other catch could be the diagnosis and treatment of the
existing problems.  I haven't seen the decayed areas of your teeth,
nor have I seen any of the restorations.  It is important that decay
is completely removed from the teeth, and a restoration placed that
has an adequate seal, is properly shaped, smooth (including margins
that you may not see or feel), and has adequate strength.

A fast drill and patch job may not really be a very long lasting
repair.

I don't know your insurance situation, or if your dentist has
recommended more extensive (and expensive) restorations that
you have declined to have placed.

I wouldn't want to place a bunch of crowns in a mouth that is
crumbling from chronic decay problems, but HMO/Capitation dentistry
often leads to a steady decline in dental health over the years.

If you really want to change things, I think you can.

JMO,
D

>>snack between meals?
>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Thanks
Stormin Mormon - 22 Jan 2007 15:14 GMT
My dentist said "phosphoric acid" several times in the same
sentence with sugar decay. Few things neutralize acids as well as
baking soda. So, I changed from Prevident prescription tooth
paste to baking soda. I've been very pleased, and much less
expensive too.

Signature

Christopher A. Young
 You can't shout down a troll.
 You have to starve them.
.

> Hi all.
> Conventional dental treament seems to do me very little good - it's
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Any idead and comments are welcome.
> Thanx.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 22 Jan 2007 16:14 GMT
> My dentist said "phosphoric acid" several times in the same
> sentence with sugar decay. Few things neutralize acids as well as
> baking soda. So, I changed from Prevident prescription tooth
> paste to baking soda. I've been very pleased, and much less
> expensive too.

    Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against use of baking soda as a
dentifrice.  However, to my mind it should not be relied upon to
de-acidify the mouth after eating fermentable carbohydrates.  Removing
plaque will however directly diminish acid production.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001


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