I forgot him till you reminded me.

About time for me to brush my teeth....

Did it occur to you that  the "outraged" individual you are responding
to is a member of
the dental profession. Who else would want to hear the

"miserable experiences of dental students vis-vis their medical student

colleagues' didital radiography"

and find any discussion including criticisim of RC "drivel"

Sometimes it's difficult to understand the persistence of some writers.  
I am guilty of having been difficult to understand for a period of time
that spanned probably two years.  But my intentions were not to drive
people away; my intentions were to do whatever it took to get people to
open up about topics that up until that time had been stuck in "the
closet" so to speak.

All in all, the TMJ related discussions were unpleasant, informational,
useless and useful.  In my opinion, more good than bad (information)
resulted from a certain persistence.  (Opinions may vary, of course.)

I took a walk last January and figured that nearly twelve months was
long enough to revisit the newsgroup with hopes that there is still
plenty of "stuff" to talk about together.  Hopes do not always work out
though.

Webby

Hmmm, here we have you talking for "most people"
How many people do you know on this list other than your dental
buddies?
What is this thread? three dentists (all using fake names) attacking
people who try to discuss two controversial issues scientifically (with
dentists), now pretending to
"talk for the people", 2 of whom have thousands of post between them
many of them
devoted to berating people harmed by methods and materials used in
thier profession.

and you are now the king of contradiction. Why are you here if you
don't want to
post? What not use your real name?  and what happened to
your dentist run list that was going to be so great. If that was so
great and this list is so bad you'd be back over there, instead of
running around here now using a fake name.

I'm not saying all the methods of argumentation used on this list are
optimal or I agree
with all of them, but... Give eeet a rest eh?

Does Georgetown Medical School also read x-rays backwards, the way the
dental school graduates do? I always thought it was standard to look at
them as you would look at the patient, but when I got out of the Army,
lots of my referring dentists were from Georgetown and their x-rays were
always mounted backwards.

See how Peter lies.  This thread was not cross-posted.

He comes here mostly to stalk me.

*imagined horrors of root canals*

Blatant liars ADA.

http://www.ada.org/public/topics/root_canal_faq.asp

How long will the restored tooth last?

Your restored tooth could last a lifetime, if you continue to care for
your teeth and gums. However, regular checkups are necessary. As long
as the root(s) of a treated tooth are nourished by the tissues around
it, your tooth will remain healthy.

http://www.cfsn.com/maz/

http://www.hallvtox.dircon.co.uk/hallvt.html

Root Canals. A tooth has miles of tiny canals running through the root.
A dead or root filled tooth will have bacteria in these canals. There
is no way of removing the bacteria once they are in there.

http://www.zip.com.au/~rgammal/RCTframeset.htm

~~~~~~~

Root canal treatments and restorations including fillings, crowns and
bridges, use chemicals known to the state of California to cause
cancer.

http://www.altcorp.com/AffinityLaboratory/rcttreatment.htm

http://www.tldp.com/issue/157-8/157rootc.htm

Surprisingly it's composed of little tiny tubules, and those tubules
are so small that if we took our smallest front tooth and stretched it
out - stretched those tubules out end to end - it would stretch out for
a distance of 3 miles. Now what happens is when you get a cavity in a
tooth and the decay gets into the dentin of the tooth the bacteria that
are involved in the decay process get into those tubules. I should tell
you that initially those tubules carry a fluid and that that fluid
carries nutriments and the nutriments in those dentin tubules keep the
tooth alive and healthy. And those nutriments come from the nerve and
the blood vessels that come into the root canal of the tooth. And so
fundamentally what happens when you get a deep cavity and it exposes
the nerve of the tooth, those bacteria get into all of those dentin
tubules and they remain in there causing infection and eventually they
can escape and that's a story in itself. They can escape in what's
known as the lateral canals and there toxins can actually escape
directly through the root surface into what's called the peridontal
membrane or ligament. This is a hard fibrous tissue which holds the
tooth in the bony socket, and when the infection gets into there it
transfers easily into the bony socket and from there the bacteria and
the bacterial toxins can get into the surrounding bone and the blood
supply of that surrounding bone. And now this acts much like cancer
cells, you know cancer cells metastasize and that means that they
travel around the body in the bloodstream and they get to another
tissue, gland or organ and they set up a new cancer. Well these
bacteria from infected dentin tubules also travel around and
metastasize in the same way and they can get into the various tissue.
Those bacteria are kind of like people, you know, if they get to like
Seattle or Reno or someplace they decide that's where they're going to
have their home, well the bacteria traveling around the body, they may
get to the liver, the kidneys or the heart or the eyes or some other
tissue and they set up an infection in that area. So this is exactly
what happens and why the degenerative diseases occur from these teeth.

http://www.curezone.com/dental/root_canal.html

MJ You're assuming that ALL root-filled teeth harbor bacteria and/or
other infective agents?

GM Yes. No matter what material or technique is used - and this is just
as true today - the root filling shrinks minutely, perhaps
microscopically. Further and this is key - the bulk of solid appearing
teeth, called the dentin, actually consists of miles of tiny tubules.
Microscopic organisms lurking in the maze of tubules simply migrate
into the interior of the tooth and set up housekeeping. A filled root
seems to be a favorite spot to start a new colony.

One of the things that makes this difficult to understand is that
large, relatively harmless bacteria common to the mouth, change and
adapt to new conditions. They shrink in size to fit the cramped
quarters and even learn how to exist (and thrive!) on very little food.
Those that need oxygen mutate and become able to get along without it.
In the process of adaptation these formerly friendly "normal" organisms
become pathogenic (capable of producing disease) and more virulent
(stronger) and they produce much more potent toxins.

Today's bacteriologists are confirming the discoveries of the Price
team of bacteriologists. Both isolated in root canals the same strains
of streptococcus, staphylococcus and spirochetes.

MJ Is everyone who has ever had a root canal filled made ill by it?

GM No. We believe now that every root canal filling does leak and
bacteria do invade the structure. But the variable factor is the
strength of the person's immune system. Some healthy people are able to
control the germs that escape from their teeth into other areas of the
body. We think this happens because their immune system lymphocytes
(white blood cells) and other disease fighters aren't constantly
compromised by other ailments. In other words, they are able to prevent
those new colonies from taking hold in other tissues throughout the
body. But over time, most people with root filled teeth do seem to
develop some kinds of systemic symptoms they didn't have before.

MJ It's really difficult to grasp that bacteria are imbedded deep in
the structure of seemingly-hard, solid looking teeth.

GM I know. Physicians and dentists have that same problem, too. You
really have to visualize the tooth structure - all of those microscopic
tubules running through the dentin. In a healthy tooth, those tubules
transport a fluid that carries nourishment to the inside. For
perspective, if the tubules of a front single-root tooth, were
stretched out on the ground they'd stretch for three miles!

A root filled tooth no longer has any fluid circulating through it, but
the maze of tubules remains. The anaerobic bacteria that live there
seem remarkably safe from antibiotics. The bacteria can migrate out
into surrounding tissue where they can "hitch hike" to other locations
in the body via the bloodstream. The new location can be any organ or
gland or tissue, and the new colony will be the next focus of infection
in a body plagued by recurrent or chronic infections.

All of the "building up" done to try to enhance the patient's ability
to fight infections - to strengthen their immune system - is only a
holding action. Many patients won't be well until the source of
infection - the root canal tooth - is removed.

MJ I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you tell us more about how
Dr. Price could be sure that arthritis or other systemic conditions and
illnesses really originated in the teeth - or in a single tooth?

GM Yes. Many investigations start with the researcher just being
curious about something - and then being scientifically careful enough
to discover an answer, and then prove it's so, many times over. Dr.
Price's first case is very well documented. He removed an infected
tooth from a woman who suffered from severe arthritis. As soon as he
finished with the patient, he implanted the tooth beneath the skin of a
healthy rabbit. Within 48 hours the rabbit was crippled with arthritis!

http://www.midnightcafe.com/alzh/endnotes.html

19. Dentin Tubules: The tooth structure is porous and dental tubules
(hollow tubes)
   within a single tooth are approximately three miles in length.
Eight bacteria
   fit side by side within one dentin tubule, which makes bacteria
difficult to
   eradicate. It is not uncommon for cavitations to become reinfected.
X-rays
   revealed I have six to eight reinfected cavitations.

20. Cavitations: Infected areas within the jawbone.

21. Bone necrosis: Disease caused in healthy cells due to direct
contact with
   any agent (usually living organism) capable of producing infection.

http://www.carondevita.com/dentaldebate.html

Dentists do not generally consider this a problem as they are taught
that the
tooth is basically dead
anyway except for that little bit of nerve in the root area. However,
although
it appears to be a solid, very hard substance, dentin in fact has many
dentinal
tubules. They are so tiny that a single tooth has as much as three
miles of
tubules

* or "mercury amalgams"*

http://www.laleva.cc/choice/mercury_cronicdis.html

http://www.algonet.se/~leif/FUSCIFCT.html

http://www.algonet.se/~leif/yaTITLfr.html

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html

http://www.health.gov/environment/amalgam1/appendixIII.htm

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/amalgampage.htm

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/mercury.html

medscape.com/uslclient/searchMedline.do?queryText="mercury%20amalgam"

Recently, Caulk Company, manufacturers of Dispersalloy, published the
latest
Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) and their Direction For Use (DFU)
which
includes contraindications to the use of dental amalgam.
(.http://www.caulk.com/MSDSDFU/DispersDFU.html February 1998)

[no longer available]

I just happen to still have it.

**** the manufacturers are now acknowledging the intrinsic dangers of
this
material.***** The legal implications of this latest development are
far
reaching. If you continue to use dental amalgam you may be playing
legal
roulette with your assets.

Caulk state that dental amalgam should not be used:
1. In proximal or occlusal contact to dissimilar metal restorations.
2. In patients with severe renal deficiency.

3. In patients with known allergies to amalgam.

4. For retrograde or endodontic filling.

5. As a filling material for cast crown.

6. In children 6 and under.

7. In expectant mothers.

The Caulk Co. home page also warns that mercury may be a skin
sensitizer,
pulmonary sensitizer, nephrotoxin and neurotoxin and, further, cautions
that
the number of amalgam restorations for one patient should be kept to a
minimum.

Caulk has also published the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for
mercury.
Of
particular importance, are some statements made in "Section VIII -
Control
Measures, Inhalation, Chronic: Inhalation of mercury vapour over a long

period
may cause mercurialism, which is characterized by fine tremors and
erethism.
Tremors may affect the hands first, but may also become evident in the
face,
arms, and legs. Erethism may be manifested by abnormal shyness,
blushing,
self
consciousness, depression or despondency, resentment of criticism,
irritability
or excitability, headache, fatigue, and insomnia. In severe cases,
hallucinations, loss of memory, and mental deterioration may occur.
Concentrations as low as 0.03 mg/m3 have induced psychiatric symptoms
in
humans. Renal involvement may be indicated by proteinuria, albuminuria,

enzymuria, and anuria. Other effects may include salivation,
gingivitis,
stomatitis, loosening of the teeth, blue lines on the gums, diarrhea,
chronic
pneumonitis and mild anemia. Repeated exposure to mercury and its
compounds
may
result in sensitisation. Intrauterine exposure may result in tremors
and
involuntary movements in the infants. Mercury is excreted in breast
milk.
Paternal reproductive effects and effects on fertility have been
reported in
male rats following repeated inhalation exposures."

Ivoclar/Vivadent go further in their contraindications. They state that

their
amalgam is:

1. Not only contraindicated for expectant mothers but also for nursing
mothers.

2. Not only contraindicated for patients with severe renal deficiency
but
for
all

patients suffering from any reduced kidney function.

The Australian Dental Association is now in a difficult, if not
untenable,
position. The prevailing ADA position is that patient exposure to
mercury
from
amalgam dental fillings is medically insignificant. At the same time
major
amalgam manufacturers are exhibiting public warnings.

All dentists must now acknowledge the contradictions between ADA policy
and
amalgam manufacturers' public warnings.

Medico-legally, the dentist who ignores manufacturer's public warnings
places
himself/herself in a precarious position. Dentists are obliged to be
familiar
with the information provided in MSDS's for the products they use and
if
patients suffer ill effects from the product being used in a way which
is
contrary to the manufacturer's directions, then the dentist may be
liable
for
the consequences. In this situation it does not matter what the
Australian
Dental Association says, as it is the dentist who will be held
responsible.
You
may be interested to know that the American Dental Association has
recognised
such a possibility and in a recent case petitioned the court to release
it
from
a suit filed jointly against a dentist and the AmDA,. The AmDA claimed
that
it
owed no responsibility for the advice being given. The court granted
the
petition, which left the dentist, who had relied on AmDA advice, as the
sole
defendant. It is little comfort that you may be insured.

All dentists must be aware of the potential adverse effects of mercury
exposure
and must also be attentive to the potential effects in pregnant females
and
nursing mothers. Before placing another amalgam filling, a dentist
might be
well advised to establish that the patient has normal kidney function.
It is
not clear whether taking a medical history will suffice or whether a
kidney
function test might need to be requested. The galvanic effect created
by
placing different metals in a mouth with amalgam fillings has the
potential
to
increase mercury release from all amalgam fillings. This also has
implications
not generally considered when placing stainless steel orthodontic
appliances
in
a patient with amalgam fillings. The use of metal pins with amalgam may
need
to
be reconsidered. If amalgam is contraindicated in a six year old, the
next
question must surely be - at what age is amalgam safe? The scientific
research
shows clearly that mercury is toxic to all people, at all levels. The
Agency
for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry in the USA lists mercury as
one of
the twenty most hazardous substances to human beings. The ATSDR's
current
allowable Minimal Risk Levels (MRL) for acute exposure are 0.02 mcgm/m3
and
for
chronic exposure 0.014 mcgm/m3. Compare this with published research,
indicating amalgam mercury vapour concentrations in the mouth, as high
as
87.5
mcgm/m3. The absorption rate of inhaled mercury vapour is extremely
high,
approximately 80% of the inhaled dose, reaching the brain tissue within
one
blood circulation cycle. The toxic threshold for mercury vapour has
never
been
found. Even the US Environmental Protection Agency has so stated. The
existing
occupational standards are all specifically declared to be estimates
only on
the appearance of clinically observable signs and symptoms. The World
Health
Organisation, in 1991, made it clear that there is NO safe level of
mercury
vapour and that amalgam represents the greatest source of mercury to
the
general population.

The spectre of potential liability for adverse effects from dental
amalgam
is
now a reality.

ASOMAT recently made a 4 page submission to the Federal Executive of
the
Australian Dental Association offering confidential background
briefings
about
the latest research to all Executive members and any other officers or
committees. ASOMAT's submission was conciliatory and asked for the
lines of
communication to be opened so that the ADA could stay informed about
ALL the
research. Our offer of cooperation was peremptorily rejected.

Any dentist faced with patients wanting the removal of amalgams from
their
mouths should note that specific protocols exist for the safer removal
of
amalgam. Unless you are familiar with these protocols, it is not
recommended
to
proceed with the wholesale removal of dental amalgam. You may create
more
problems than you solve.

It would be appropriate for you to contact your insurer and ask the
specific
question..." If I use amalgam contrary to the specific warnings and
contraindications stated by the manufacturer and my patient suffers
effects
known to be associated with mercury exposure, will you cover me fully
for my
legal costs and any damages in the event that the patient sues me? "
Whatever
the answer, get it in writing!

ASOMAT's concern has always been that dentists and patients be fully
informed.
We are very worried that the profession is badly prepared to deal with
these
quickly changing circumstances, especially in light of a recent press
conference in Sweden on the 19th February 1998. At that time the
Swedish
Council for Planning and Coordinating Research, a body commissioned by
the
Swedish Government to review the literature on amalgams, stated the
following..
"Mercury from amalgam may damage the brain, kidneys and the immune
system of
a
great number of people. The effects in foetus and children are of most
concern." Those are the conclusions of a report soon to be handed to
the
Government. "There is no conflict any more", says Gunnar Goude from the

board
of the Swedish Council for Planning and Coordinating Research (FRN),
after
reviewing the comprehensive documentation from the four seminars.
"There is
total agreement among the Board members that it is time to move forward
and
leave amalgam.

1: Ned Tijdschr Tandheelkd. 1993 Apr;100(4):179-82.Related Articles,
Links

[Amalgam. IV. Metabolism of mercury]

[Article in Dutch]

Gladys S, van Meerbeek B, Vanherle G, Lambrechts P.

Afdeling Conserverende Tandheelkunde en Tandheelkundige Materialen,
School voor Tandheelkunde, Mondziekten en Kaakchirurgie, Katholieke
Universiteit te Leuven, Belgie.

After absorption in the body by four ways, each type of mercury
undergoes a specific metabolism. Elementary mercury as mercury vapour
becomes rapidly oxidized to Hg2+ and, afterwards, is metabolized as an
inorganic mercurial compound. From the blood circulation mercury
reaches target organs like the kidneys, the central nervous system, the
liver and the hypophysis, in which mercury accumulates. The retention
time varies by organ and is longest in the brain. Mercury is mainly
eliminated with urine and faeces, to a lesser degree with transpiration
and mother's milk and sometimes by respiration.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11822127 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.greenfacts.org/mercury/l-2/mercury-2.htm#2

.2 How are we exposed to mercury?
The main source of elemental mercury vapour is dental amalgam (a tooth
filling).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=11799732
1: Bull Group Int Rech Sci Stomatol Odontol. 2000
May-Dec;42(2-3):88-93.Related Articles, Links

Salivary mercury levels in healthy donors with and without amalgam
fillings.

Pizzichini M, Fonzi M, Gasparoni A, Fonzi L.

Department of Biomedical Science, University of Siena, Siena, Italy.

Dental amalgam (AMG) is the most diffused dental filling material.
Since it is constituted for at least 40-45% of Hg, many questions have
raised about its safe use. Hg particles from dental amalgam dissolve in
saliva and, being ingested, they reach the blood stream through the
intestinal mucosa. It has been demonstrated that amalgam fillings
continuously release Hg vapour and that there is detectable Hg in
expired and inspired air of amalgam owners. It is not yet fully
accepted that AMG fillings represent the principal source of Hg for man
and the aim of this study was to evaluate if the mercury level in
saliva: 1) was higher within people bearing dental amalgam restorations
than in people with no restorations; 2) was different between males or
females; 3) increased in relation to the surface of amalgam
restorations. The results showed a correlation between number of
fillings and salivary Hg, between amalgam surface and salivary Hg. The
Authors could finally assert that AMG fillings represented the
principal source of salivary Hg in the subjects studied.

PMID: 11799732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=14651282</