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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2006Do Dentists make more money than Doctors in USA?
In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General Practitioner (I believe called a "family physician" in the USA). Similarly, a dental specialist such an orthodontist will earn more than most medial specialists. (Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) Is it a similar position in the USA? > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is it a similar position in the USA? > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General > Practitioner (I believe called a "family physician" in the USA). > Similarly, a dental specialist such an orthodontist will earn more than > most medial specialists. I think since dentists are surgeons, to compare apples with apples, you have to compare them to surgeons and not physicians. A good analogy is probably general surgeons (in some countries they have all but vanished and replaced with GI surgeons). Regards, George > > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > George Perhaps what they are doing is in a sense equivalent to surgery. However, general dentists have only had a fraction of the training that a medical surgeon has.In Australia, to become a surgeon takes about 10 years post medical school. On a side note, in Australia, maxillofacial surgeons have both dental and medical degrees. >>>In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we >>>compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > On a side note, in Australia, maxillofacial surgeons have both dental > and medical degrees. For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of physicians in the U.S. choose to specialize. This is the reverse of dentistry here, where 85% choose to remain generalists. Most medical and surgical specialists however have lengthy postgrad training regimens--probably a minimum of 3 years post-internship. There are necessarily sub-specialties--pediatric dermatologists, pathologists with a specialty in lung cancer, etc.--so the training can get as arcane as one wishes. I don't know if there are specific certifying boards in all of the subspecialties though. The length of training may tend to winnow out enough candidates that the few making it through have a greater ability to keep fees high. Of course, your national health and our managed care severely disrupt what would be the natural course of affairs if there were a purely open marketplace. Certainly, compensation in employment has never had a straight-line relationship to length and difficulty in training. In the past 3 years, my wife's income has been roughly twice mine. She is a real estate agent in what was a superheated market (now precipitously cooling down). Her total training for her license was 13 weeks of a 2 hour/week course. She told me I should do more crowns now. Steve  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice > after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Brooklyn, NY > 718-258-5001 a) Most doctors here (in Australia) would laugh at the concept of 3 years post internship for specialty training being described as "long". Surgical training typically takes 8 years post-internship here in Australia. Of course, you need to add on a few extra years to suck up to the relevant people in hospital so that you are offered a position in one of the preferred specialties in the first place. b) 85% of doctors are specialists in USA??? OMG!!! In Australia, much lower. c)If a real estate agent in boom times makes twice as much as a typical dentist, either american estate agents get much more money than Aussie ones (unlikely) or American dentists clearly don't make as much as Aussie ones (more likely). I am not a dentist, but I do know some, and also know some people who are accountants and do some accounts of dentists. A dentist running their own practice will typically make about 300K profit (before tax). Admittedly that's aussie dollars, so is only $225K American dollars - but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though probably not in Sydney). >> For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >> after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > to the relevant people in hospital so that you are offered a position > in one of the preferred specialties in the first place. I would want to be sure we're not comparing apples and lychee nuts. Typical MDs in the U.S. have graduated with a science degree and in the top 10% of their graduating class. Medical school is typically 4 years, internship 1 year, residency 3-6, maybe more. I'm hardly an expert. But even assuming 3 years, this is 8 years post secondary education, so most of these surgeons are pushing 30 before they open their practice. Many specialties are doubtless longer. But you might more profitably check this in medical forums. > b) 85% of doctors are specialists in USA??? OMG!!! In Australia, much > lower. > > c)If a real estate agent in boom times makes twice as much as a typical > dentist, Nah, I'm just a kept man. But the party is about over. either american estate agents get much more money than Aussie > ones (unlikely) or American dentists clearly don't make as much as > Aussie ones (more likely). New York is a superheated market. Even in Brooklyn where I live prices have about tripled in the past 10 years. But when an average apartment in a secondary neighborhood in Brooklyn is north of $500,000, you know things can't go on forever. Steve > I am not a dentist, but I do know some, and also know some people who > are accountants and do some accounts of dentists. A dentist running > their own practice will typically make about 300K profit (before tax). > Admittedly that's aussie dollars, so is only $225K American dollars - > but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though > probably not in Sydney). >>> For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>> after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>> >>> Steve >>> -- >>> Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > a secondary neighborhood in Brooklyn is north of $500,000, you know things > can't go on forever. Of course they can't. Look at the average incomes then calculate what mortage a person would qualify for. If you put 20% (100k)down on a $500k property your mortage would be $400k and banks generally give you a mortage 2.5 x your income.So you would have to be earning $150k per year and have the $100k as a down payment. Even in NYC the average family income is about $70k and there are also many $10hr workers as well. So how do most people survive there? The answer is that there are about 1m rent controlled apts. which appear to be passed down through families(and sometimes even unrelated people) like family heirlooms lol So that many people are only paying $300-500 in rent on something that might rent for 10x as much on the open market. Former mayor Ed Koch was paying $300 for his rent controlled Greenwich Village apt. while living at Gracie mansion. Also, there is a small % of super rich who buy or rent all of these multi million apts. or houses you see advertised in the Times. So while I think the high priced market can't go on forever with prices rising; since this market only effects a small group of people it very well may improve. > Steve > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >> probably not in Sydney). > Of course they can't. Look at the average incomes then calculate what > mortage a person would qualify for. If you put 20% (100k)down on a $500k [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > market can't go on forever with prices rising; since this market only > effects a small group of people it very well may improve. Banks only give loans of 2.5 times income? Here in Australia they will often give loans of 5 times income, and our interest rates are higher than the USA's. >>Of course they can't. Look at the average incomes then calculate what >>mortage a person would qualify for. If you put 20% (100k)down on a $500k [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > often give loans of 5 times income, and our interest rates are higher > than the USA's. Don't know what the default rate is there. Here it's anticipated to go up. Many people have taken out adjustable rate mortgages with low "teaser" rates initially. Mortgage rates haven't gone up much, but those with ARMs negotiated during the go-go-days have definitely seen their payments go up. We also have these "interest only" mortgages, but if real estate prices see a serious hit we're going to hear a lot of grumbling from the banks and a lot of foreclosures. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>Of course they can't. Look at the average incomes then calculate what >>>mortage a person would qualify for. If you put 20% (100k)down on a $500k [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > with ARMs negotiated during the go-go-days have definitely seen their > payments go up. We also have these "interest only" mortgages, That's a balloon type and I don't know how common it is for banks to give them to individuals because eventually you have to pay a big lump sum. If prices dropped your property might be worth less than the amount owed. but > if real estate prices see a serious hit we're going to hear a lot of > grumbling from the banks and a lot of foreclosures. > > Steve >>>>Of course they can't. Look at the average incomes then calculate what >>>>mortage a person would qualify for. If you put 20% (100k)down on a $500k [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > them to individuals because eventually you have to pay a big lump sum. If > prices dropped your property might be worth less than the amount owed. Yes it is--though I've not heard them referred to as "balloon mortgages" when they're marketed to individuals. In the NY market "balloon mortgages" (using that term) are usually referring to a non-liquidating underlying mortgage in a cooperative or condominium apartment building. But you are right, and these mortgages are dangerous to individuals for the reason you mention. Steve > but > >>if real estate prices see a serious hit we're going to hear a lot of >>grumbling from the banks and a lot of foreclosures. >> >>Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>>>after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > market can't go on forever with prices rising; since this market only > effects a small group of people it very well may improve. A small correction; most of the regulated apartments are "stabilized", not "controlled". Rent control has pretty much gone by the boards, though you still hear of the odd 4 BR apartment on the Upper West side of Manhattan renting for $200. Rent stabilization is another story--I believe every rental with 6 or more units falls under the rent stabilization law. However, many of these fall under vacancy decontrol, and many of these apartments are sold as co-ops when they vacate. I have no idea how many apartments still fall under rent stabilization, but I doubt it's a million. I have been a tenant, and I live with a woman who has been in apartment management, so I can easily see both sides of this issue and what it's done to the housing market in NY. One more thing--most banks do not require income verification if a certain percentage of the purchase price is put down (I think it's 20%, but I'm not sure). During the time prices were accellerating quickly this could be a problem as many properties would not appraise for the selling price (this is determined by looking at comparable sales in the neighborhood; prices were rising so quickly that comparable sales even 6 months before were at much lower prices). Steve >>Steve >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >>>probably not in Sydney). SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>>For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>>>>after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>>>> Her total training for her license was 13 weeks of a 2 hour/week >>>>>course. She told me I should do more crowns now. But that's not typical. It's like actors, the average actor earns $10k a year with a handful at the top making the big money. Same in real estate. But what you earn is only partly connected to the amount of education and skills you have once you're over a certain level. You've seen those statistics about the difference between someone with a college degree compared to someone without and they are correct. But I think that as far as your capacity to make money is concerned someone with a master's would not necessarily make more, or someone with a Ph.d might not earn more than a master's or just a bachelor's. Then you have the exceptions like Bill Gates (and he is not unique) who never even attended University. >>>>>Steve >> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] >>>>but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >>>>probably not in Sydney). >>>>>>For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>>>>>after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Then you have the exceptions like Bill Gates (and he is not unique) who > never even attended University. No, of course it's not typical--my wife is a star!! ;-) Steve >>>>>>Steve >>> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] >>>>>but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >>>>>probably not in Sydney). SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>>For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>>>>after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > A small correction; most of the regulated apartments are "stabilized", not > "controlled". Yes most are now rent stablized but the rents are still low compared to market value which means that those building sell for a much lower price due to the low income generated. It's all relative. For an apartment to be rent controlled the tenant must have been living there continuously since July 1, 1971. When a rent controlled apartment becomes vacant, it either becomes rent stabilized or is removed from regulation Rent stabilized units in New York City are those apartments in buildings of six or more units in buildings built between February 1, 1947 and January 1, 1974. Tenants are entitled to receive required services to have their leases renewed and may not be evicted except on the grounds allowed by law Rent control has pretty much gone by the boards, > though you still hear of the odd 4 BR apartment on the Upper West side of > Manhattan renting for $200. Rent stabilization is another story--I > believe every rental with 6 or more units falls under the rent > stabilization law. However, many of these fall under vacancy decontrol, > and many of these apartments are sold as co-ops when they vacate. The owners usually have to pay the tenant to move out. Or the tenant has the right of first refusal at the inside price. I > have no idea how many apartments still fall under rent stabilization, but > I doubt it's a million. It's still pretty high. It's like 50% of all rentals which is down from 77% http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1382342/posts > I have been a tenant, and I live with a woman who has been in apartment > management, so I can easily see both sides of this issue and what it's > done to the housing market in NY. > One more thing--most banks do not require income verification if a certain > percentage of the purchase price is put down (I think it's 20%, but I'm > not sure). I think it's higher. During the time prices were accellerating quickly > this could be a problem as many properties would not appraise for the > selling price (this is determined by looking at comparable sales in the > neighborhood; prices were rising so quickly that comparable sales even 6 > months before were at much lower prices). That's true. But I think that unstable markets are really bad. Eventually all housing will be deregulated then you'll just have the free market so I have to wonder how many people will be able to afford housing in the city then. If there is an excess of high priced housing with no takers you'll see a big drop. It happened in the '80's, not due to deregulation but just too many vacancies and not enough renters especially in the commercial area. You could get a 1 bedroom at Battery Park city for like $60k-80! I was going to buy couple but didn't think they would rise at the time lol http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/14829 > Steve >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>>but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >>>>probably not in Sydney). >>>>>> For comparison, in the U.S. a general practice physician may practice >>>>>> after a one-year internship. However, last I'd heard about 85% of [quoted text clipped - 138 lines] > > http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/14829 Thanks for the info. I had an office on the S. Shore of Long Island between '83 and '86. At the time there was a gross overbuilding of retail space, and some new shopping centers out there were about half vacant. I know a lot of people thought the builders had learned their lesson, but the evidence seems to show otherwise. Steve >> Steve >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>>> but the cost of living is arguably cheaper in Australia (though >>>>> probably not in Sydney). > Perhaps what they are doing is in a sense equivalent to surgery. It's not equivalent to surgery, it is by definition surgery. Surgery is defined as the medical specialty that treats diseases or injuries by operative manual and instrumental treatment. The modern dental surgeon is the offspring of the medieval surgeon, who often received informal training and was responsible for dental extractions, limb amputations, and other pleasant stuff. This was contrary to the traditional physician, who intervened with medication. > However, general dentists have only had a fraction of the training > that a medical surgeon has.In Australia, to become a surgeon takes > about 10 years post medical school. I gather 10 years post-school training is mostly for senior registrars in specialities such as cardiothoracic or vascular surgery. Most surgeons would be able to practice general surgery, like appendicectomies, unsupervised long before that. But as you mentioned, the problem in comparing medical surgeons with dental surgeons, is that in order to become a medical surgeon you first have to get a medical degree. The dental school on the other hand could be seen as a fast track to a surgical specialty. Perhaps, it would be better to compare dentists with veterinary surgeons, as the vet school also offers a surgical degree on graduation. On the other hand, what would a comparison achieve anyway? If someone is contemplating between a dental and medical career, income potential is not a good way for a choice. Money can be made much easier and with less stress by becoming an investment banker or marketing consultant. Regards, George Regards, George > > Perhaps what they are doing is in a sense equivalent to surgery. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Regards, > George Most doctors and dentists are highly intelligent people, but IMHO, this does not mean that most of them would succeed in the business world, eg in being an investment banker. As a matter of fact, most doctors and dentists I have known are very very very average investors. To succeed in the business world requires a different skill set from succeeding in the medical world. Some doctors/dentists would have the relevant skills, some could learn them, but many could not. Odd thing is most doctors I have known appear to be 100% confident that they could have done well in business if that is the field they had chosen to go into. Confidence or delusion? I guess depends on the individual case. By the way, I'll have to check the amount of training for a general surgeon in Australia, but I think it might also be 8 years also post-internship. Even a non-surgical specialty such as psychiatry takes 5 years post-internship training in Australia. Come to think of it, for an Aussie choosing between medicine and dentistry, dentistry objectively has huge advantages over medicine. Yet to get into med school is still harder. Why? I guess due to the "sexy" image (which admittedly is not reflected in the reality) that medicine has but dentistry doesn't. Of course, I am simplifying the issue, there are many more factors, but I believe this is the main one. Hi Davey, In my personal experience, having worked for a few different practices in the past years and talked to several dentists, I strongly believe that most doctors and dentists are very intelligent professionals but very bad businessmen. This might no be very bad; after all both medicine and dentistry are vocations to some extent. Regards, George >>> Perhaps what they are doing is in a sense equivalent to surgery. >> It's not equivalent to surgery, it is by definition surgery. Surgery is [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > in being an investment banker. As a matter of fact, most doctors and > dentists I have known are very very very average investors. Why would you expect otherwise? Besides skill sets, there is the matter of education. To succeed > in the business world requires a different skill set from succeeding in > the medical world. Some doctors/dentists would have the relevant > skills, some could learn them, but many could not. Well, there's business, and then there's business. You won't be surprised to hear that our practice management courses in school were given short shrift. They were not required for graduation. They were potentially among the most important courses, but were poorly taught IMO. > Odd thing is most doctors I have known appear to be 100% confident that > they could have done well in business if that is the field they had > chosen to go into. Confidence or delusion? I guess depends on the > individual case. Cudda, shudda, wudda. Doesn't matter. > By the way, I'll have to check the amount of training for a general > surgeon in Australia, but I think it might also be 8 years also [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > has but dentistry doesn't. Of course, I am simplifying the issue, there > are many more factors, but I believe this is the main one. Come on, what could be sexier than a dentist? http://www.dentist.spb.ru/img/emil.jpg Steve >> Come to think of it, for an Aussie choosing between medicine and >> dentistry, dentistry objectively has huge advantages over medicine. Yet [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Steve Good one ! The old saying goes that if you couldn't get into vererinary school you go to dental school. If you can't get into dental school you go to medical school. It's all about the numbers man ! In the US it is very difficult to get into vet school because of the limited number of spaces. > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is it a similar position in the USA? From what I've read, there is so much individual practice variation with regard to income (practice setting, mode of practice) that the averages mean less than they seem to. A general dentist with a good, well-run practice will probably do better than an endodontist (usually the highest average incomes in most of the surveys I've seen) who depends on managed care, or who is a poor manager or poor operator. Having said that, most of what I've read (I don't have the numbers at hand, but I'm sure some figures could be googled) the average physician in the U.S. has substantially higher income than the average dentist. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 In the UK (where I practice) dentists on average get more money quickly after their graduation compared to their medical colleagues. These earnings however flatten out and are consistent throughout their career for most dentists, and they are significantly exceeded by family physicians and consultants later on. Of course, this is on average - there is variation among practitioners. The easiest way to make comparisons is probably IRS or national styatistics average figures for these class of professionals. Regards, George > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is it a similar position in the USA? Dave, Generally, dentistry seems to require excellent hand-eye coordination as well as speed. If you are good with tools, drawing you might want to consider dentistry Many doctors like to read and memorize. I understand that medical school requires a tremendous amount of memorization. Imagine going through a course on human anatomy in 4 weeks, memorizing the name of every nerve and bone. If you like to work with your hands then dentistry might be for you, but if you like to read and memorize lists consider being a doctor >>In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we >>compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > through a course on human anatomy in 4 weeks, memorizing the name of > every nerve and bone. Four weeks must be the Cliff notes version. Gross anatomy was taken through the first full year of dental school. Neuroanatomy took up a good part of the second. Steve > If you like to work with your hands then dentistry might be for you, > but > if you like to read and memorize lists consider being a doctor SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 Four weeks must be the Cliff notes version. Gross anatomy was taken > through the first full year of dental school. Neuroanatomy took up a > good part of the second. For me it was 1st semester of the 1st year gross anatomy, 2nd semester neuroanatomy + demonstration of anatomy on a cadaver. 2nd year "medical" subjects were physiology + biochemistry, 3rd year pharmacology + internal medicine, 4th year general surgery + ENT surgery. 5th year no medical subjects (thank god!). Regards, George > Four weeks must be the Cliff notes version. Gross anatomy was > taken [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Regards, > George Most dental programs in the U.S. are 4 years long. I suppose I did get the "Cliff notes" course--when I was at NYU we went 3 years for 11 months/year instead of 4 years of 9 mo/ yr. But this of course left us a few months short, and as the clinical requirements had not been changed many students didn't finish on time. Within a couple of years NYU was back to a 4 year schedule. Are most dental school entrants in the UK college grads at the time of admission? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > > Four weeks must be the Cliff notes version. Gross anatomy was > > taken [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve You didn't ask about Australia, and you probably don't care - but I'll share the info anyway! In Australia, most dental courses are undergraduate and 5 years long, ie aimed at high school leavers without a previous degree. The one exception is a 4 year graduate degree in Sydney University, aimed at people who have previously completed a degree. >>> Four weeks must be the Cliff notes version. Gross anatomy was >>>taken [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > exception is a 4 year graduate degree in Sydney University, aimed at > people who have previously completed a degree. Years ago there was someone who came to this newsgroup just to tease dentists that they weren't "real" doctors. When I entered dental school (1973) it was possible to enter without a baccalaureate degree--if you had the requistite chemistry, biology, physics etc. From a practical standpoint almost all entering dental students back then were already college grads. This of course was true of entering med students as well, but the grade requirements were significantly higher for medical school. Many without very high grades looked at their choices as between dental school in the U.S. and medical school abroad (chiefly Mexico and Italy). Of course, since practice settings and work environment are so different for the two professions in the states for the majority of grads, this is IMO a poor way to look at a career choice. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 No idea what happens in the UK - I studied in Greece. Dentistry was 5 years, Medicine 6, Vet Medicine 6 years and they were all undergraduate courses for people leaving high school (high school extends to 18 years old). People with other similar degrees could squeeze in the 2nd or 3rd year of either course. For example, a dental technician graduate could enter dentistry at the 2nd year, a pharmacist or a dentist could enter Medicine at the 2nd year etc. Regards, George > For me it was 1st semester of the 1st year gross anatomy I can understand why you didn't become a doctor if you thought that that anatomy was "gross". I'm sure many doctors avoid dentistry because of "disgusting" cavities. Actully I got my information from somenone in medical school, they probably wouldn't have been memorizing a whole system in 4 weeks but a good part of one. Of course what makes that course difficult is as much the grading used as the material. Many people take History,math and English in US High Schools and colleges but don't do as well in College where the grading is much tougher. Also pre-med courses are known for being cutthroat, for example in biology lab a common pre-med tactic is to "switch" frogs on dissection day > > For me it was 1st semester of the 1st year gross anatomy > > I can understand why you didn't become a doctor if you thought that > that anatomy was "gross". I'm sure many doctors avoid dentistry because > of "disgusting" cavities. I hope this was a joke...but I am honestly not sure. T >> > For me it was 1st semester of the 1st year gross anatomy >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >T Maybe he was grossly misunderstood ? ;) I can understand why you didn't become a doctor if you thought that > that anatomy was "gross". I'm sure many doctors avoid dentistry because > of "disgusting" cavities. What I meant gross was anatomy dealing with the gross details of organs/systems. More specific details like ennervation and vascular distribution in detail were generally handled in the 2nd semester. > Actully I got my information from somenone in medical school, they > probably > wouldn't have been memorizing a whole system in 4 weeks but a good > part of one. When I took the "gross" anatomy course in the first semester it lasted approximately 3.5 months. I actually studied about 4 weeks, as you said, to memorise the stuff for the final exams, which I passed with flying colours (ok, not flying colours but good enough). Regards, George > In Australia, Dentists make substantially more than doctors if we > compare apples with apples. EG, a dentist will earn more than a General [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) That's $750,000 US and I doubt that they earn that.I'm assuming that he doesn't own multiple offices and it's a usual office with just his staff etc. Dentistry and other jobs and professions which rely on your actual labor(and profit from materials) are limited by the fact that you can only attend to so many patients per day. > Is it a similar position in the USA? > > (Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > labor(and profit from materials) are limited by the fact that you can only > attend to so many patients per day. The figure was given to me by a dentist (nor orthodontist) in Australia - I assumed that being in the dental industry they know how much orthodontists earn. I was a bit sceptical at first, so I asked some people who have kids how much a) they paid their orthodontist and b)how much time in total the orthodontist spent with their kids, including initial consult, etc. Commonly, the answers were a) 4 - 5K b)a total of about 1.5 - 2 hours. >>>(Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Commonly, the answers were a) 4 - 5K b)a total of about 1.5 - 2 hours. Maybe it's done by robots. My 10 year old daughter has been in orthodontic treatment a little over a year now. She is seen about every 4 weeks, her visit lasts perhaps 20 min. to a half hour each time. There are radiographs, models, records. There are also changes in appliances, popped brackets, occasional emergencies (eg. broken archwires). In other words, orthodontists work. A lot of their patients are whiney kids much more annoying than my daughter. And in a competitive market like New York, there's plenty of managed care and reduced-fee treament. Our orthodontist does OK, but I personally doubt he's making half of that $750,000/yr. net. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > >>>(Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) And in a > competitive market like New York, there's plenty of managed care and > reduced-fee treament. Our orthodontist does OK, but I personally doubt > he's making half of that $750,000/yr. net. If he did, you'd find that to be Gross? >>>>>(Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If he did, you'd find that to be Gross? I ain't bitin', and wouldn't even if he weren't a really sweet guy (which he is). ;-) Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>>>(Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>reduced-fee treament. Our orthodontist does OK, but I personally doubt >>>he's making half of that $750,000/yr. net. I just making a wild guess but I'd say that the top orthodontists in the US earn about $250K and that's in expensive areas like NYC. Outside the high priced area probably 1/2 of that. Considering the amount of education required and time taken off your active working years it's really not much. Another problem is getting enough patients who can afford the treatment. And I doubt very much that an Australian orthodondist earns $1m net. Sure there might be a couple who earn this but the average guy doesn't. Much like a top plastic surgeon might get $50k for a nose while the average good guys get $5k. It's been my experience that these top glamour doctors are not really any better than any other good doctor but are just better at business and promoting themselves. C'mon does anyone really believe that Michael Jacksons plastic surgeon perhaps charging 10x what a good NYC surgeon would charge is any better? >> If he did, you'd find that to be Gross? > > I ain't bitin', and wouldn't even if he weren't a really sweet guy (which > he is). ;-) > > Steve > >>>>>>(Actually, in Australia, orthodontists make $1m+ incomes) > >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > plastic surgeon perhaps charging 10x what a good NYC surgeon would charge > is any better? You make a lot of doubts and claims patient. I'm just curious what you base these on, since by your own admission it is a "wild guess". Maybe that $1m figure is gross earnings for a multi-surgery practice? Regards, George > Maybe that $1m figure is gross earnings for a multi-surgery practice? > > Regards, > George Could be, that's why I specified net (the OP stated "income"). But since our OP implied a familiarity with the business world, I assumed he/she knew what was being discussed. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > > Maybe that $1m figure is gross earnings for a multi-surgery practice? > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Brooklyn, NY > 718-258-5001 The figure quoted to me was not revenue, it was profit. Though before tax. Not sure the situation in the USA, but in Australia orthodontists have kept a very tight reign over how many orthodontists are allowed to go through the system. >>>Maybe that $1m figure is gross earnings for a multi-surgery practice? >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > have kept a very tight reign over how many orthodontists are allowed to > go through the system. There is no overt "control" over the number of dentists of any stripe being graduated. Over the past several years a significant number of dental schools closed. I doubt that practicing dentists had anything to do with this, so much as the apparent diminished attractiveness of dentistry as a career, coupled with the increasing expense of providing an education. During this time, total applications to dental school declined, and tuitions rose drastically. Generally dental schools are not freestanding institutions, but parts of larger universities. Generally if the dental school loses the support of the university, it is toast. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> > Maybe that $1m figure is gross earnings for a multi-surgery practice? >> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >have kept a very tight reign over how many orthodontists are allowed to >go through the system. Endodontists still earn much more than wire benders in the US. |
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