Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / October 2006
Fraudelant 2003 study showing no harm from amalgams
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nightlight - 08 Oct 2006 18:05 GMT A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html which found no harmful effects appears to have been designed not to find any such effects.
Basically what they did is to perform a series of mental performance tests on people with various numbers of amalgams.
They did find direct linear correlation in blood and urine levels of mercury metabolites with number of amalgams (or surfaces). Clearly the amalgams do cause mercury absorption and show linear dose/response relation.
Regarding the mental tests, they cheated by "stratifying" the subjects into categories such as educational level, professional status, socioeconomic status and numerous other "confounders" (using unspecified adjustment). Then they compared mental performance of subjects with and without amalgams _within each subset_. The problem with this approach is that after you adjust for all "confounders" you get subset which by definition will be have level of mental performance corresponding to the parameters held fixed for the subgroup (e.g. professional level, socioeconomic status...).
For example if amalgams (which were all placed in teen years) have caused drop in IQ of 30 points, a person who might have been IQ=130 would become IQ=100 and achieve professional status of people with IQ=100. Hence someone who might have been a scientist (with IQ 130), may have turned out, due to amalgams, an average person and would be compared to that subgroup. Similarly a person with pre-amalgam IQ 160, who might have been Nobel laureate, would only become an average scientist corresponding to IQ 130 and would be compared to those.
Hence, by fixing great many "confounding variables" within each group, the authors had in effect fixed the equivalent of the mental performance within that subgroup. Comparing subjects within each subgroup will then by definition measure that same fixed level of performance corresponding to that subgroup. The whole experiment was in effect a worthless tautology with guaranteed outcome. It was completely insensitive to the effect of mercury on shifting persons from one "stratum" to another.
To give analogy, consider we wish to measure effect of childhood starvation on height of adults. We pick 1000 adults, divide them into subgroups based on weight and height. Then _within_ each subgroup we compare how the remaining small height variations correlate with the data on childhood starvation. Obviously, if we're looking within the 6 ft +/- 10% subgroup, we won't find out how tall a 6 ft person with history of starvation would have been had he not been starving in childhood.
The entire study was obviously rigged -- it was devised to be entirely insensitive to the question of amalgam effects on mental performance. The fact that they had to cheat using such cheap statistical sleight of hand means that the amalgams do cause harm and any genuine study would show it.
Steven Bornfeld - 08 Oct 2006 22:46 GMT > A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams > http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > sleight of hand means that the amalgams do cause > harm and any genuine study would show it. I don't generally comment on amalgam threads, but I agree that the process of "correcting" for "confounding variables" is a process fraught with peril. In this context I have little confidence relating periodontal disease with cardiovascular and cerebrovascular incidents which have been "corrected" for smoking and other confounding variables. I don't agree that this necessarily was done to achieve the desired effect, but obviously I can't know. Mental performance tests are pretty dicey in any case. Studying obvious parameters related to neurologic damage (neuromuscular markers such as reaction time, tremor etc.) would be easier to measure and less prone to manipulation.
Steve
Clinton - 09 Oct 2006 00:26 GMT > A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams > http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of mental performance tests on people > with various numbers of amalgams. Good point, believe it or not the ADA brought up this worthless study repeatedly at the FDA hearings as well as another 'amalgam counting' study criticized on this NG and full of errors.
If you like you can send your comment to the FDA before Nov.
Send an email to FDADockets@oc.fda.gov. In the subject line type "Docket Number - 2006N-0352". Send a copy to Mary Ann Newell at bullelkman@aol.com (to insure inclusion in the docket). The expert committe will review your comments.
Jan - 09 Oct 2006 19:36 GMT > > A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams > > http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > committe > will review your comments. Thanks Clinton.
I just received this from Marie Flowers.
Send an email to FDADockets@oc.fda.gov. In the subject line type "Docket Number - 2006N-0352". Send a copy to Mary Ann Newell at bullelkman@aol.com or Freya Koss at frekoss@aol.com so we can make sure that your comments get recorded to the Docket. Deadline is Nov 9, 2006.
Jan
Jan - 09 Oct 2006 19:41 GMT > > > A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams > > > http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Jan Excuse me, I forgot to post this additional info.
The joint panel concluded with personal recommendations by the members. These include that FDA should : · Consider informed consent for patients receiving amalgam · Consider labeling changes restricting its use in pregnant woman and children · Revisit the white paper to include a broader search, include data from other countries, and provide the rationale for study exclusion · Study the pharmacokinetics of mercury · Consider the relevancy of the "precautionary principle." · Not make any rash decisions by having the pubic remove their amalgams because it appears that this problem may affect only a small segment of the population.
HOW TO POST TO THE FDA DOCKET
Send an email to FDADockets@oc.fda.gov. In the subject line type "Docket Number - 2006N-0352". Send a copy to Mary Ann Newell at bullelkman@aol.com or Freya Koss at frekoss@aol.com so we can make sure that your comments get recorded to the Docket. Deadline is Nov 9, 2006.
If you don't post a story, the Advisory Panel will think there are just a few people poisoned from dental fillings instead of a possible 25% rate in the general population.
Marie Flowers Dental Amalgam Mercury Syndrome- DAMS www.MercuryPoisoned.com
For an in-depth report of what happened at recent FDA hearings look at the top of my website. www.MercuryPoisoned.com
The Advisory Panel to the FDA REJECTED the FDA's Safety Report on Dental Amalgam, and suggest labeling changes so that children and pregnant women should not have mercury dental fillings. The Advisory Panel also said that people should be informed before a dentist places mercury dental fillings. Jan
Peter Moran - 09 Oct 2006 21:31 GMT >> > A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams >> > http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> repeatedly at the FDA hearings as well as another 'amalgam counting' >> study criticized on this NG and full of errors. This is "talking the talk" -- mere mimicry of science-speak, as various kinds of activist are wont to do these days.
What we need here is a clearer exposition of just why counting peoples amalgam surfaces (and presumably including a group with none) and correlating that with neurological performance is a "worthless" approach. We know that the number of amalgam surfaces correlates with mercury exposure. How else might one investigate whether subtle mercury poisoning may sometimes be occurring in patients with amalgam fillings?
Peter Moran
nightlight - 09 Oct 2006 23:20 GMT >>>>A recent (2003) study of effects of dental amalgams >>>>http://www.ehponline.org/members/2003/5879/5879.html [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>of mental performance tests on people >>>>with various numbers of amalgams.
> This is "talking the talk" -- mere mimicry of science-speak, as various > kinds of activist are wont to do these days. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > exposure. How else might one investigate whether subtle mercury poisoning > may sometimes be occurring in patients with amalgam fillings? The problem isn't that they counted amalgams. The problem is their "stratification" which basically fixes subgroups based on their present status (various confounding variables which amount to an equivalent of mental performance). There is no reason why within a subgroup of, say, janitors or equivalent non-professionals, a janitor with 10 amalgams would be any dumber than another janitor with no amalgams. Comparing performance of two janitors doesn't tell you how well the janitor with 10 amalgams might have done had he not had these amalgams i.e. how did amalgams affect his development and resulting mental performance, energy and drive to achieve. Had he not been inhaling mercury vapors since childhood he might have been a doctor or a scientist.
By stratifying the data based on variables which amount to a indirect measure of mental performance they have fixed, within some narrow band of arbitrary fluctuations, what performace they will find by measuring it directly.
The ADA friendly "researchers" have obviously rigged the "study" to find no significant effect of amalgams by looking through a contrived pinhole defining their subgroups. The fact that they didn't find any more subtle way of rigging indicates that there wasn't any but clumsy and transparent sleight of hand they tried. The real implication is that just about anything else one might have done would have shown the negative impact of amalgams.
Clinton - 10 Oct 2006 01:13 GMT > The problem isn't that they counted amalgams. I understand what you are saying but to address the above and Peter Moran's comments, counting amalgams is a problem. Why? Galvansim, crevice corrsion, and poor condensation of amalgam makes some amalgams give off much higher levels of Hg than others. Since Hg exposure isn't measured directly, those with the highest level aren't counted.
For example, let's say 1 in 100 amalgams is poorly made or undergoes an unusal amount of galvanic activity, and gives off high levels of Hg. Or that this amalgam undergoes what manufacturer refer to as "electrochemical reactions" on the surface which may allow bactria to methylize the Hg released in a corrosion reaction. On average that amalgam will be in the mouth with an individual with an average number of fillings. that means that amalgam counting, by ignoring galvanic activity, poor condensation anc surface electrochemical reactions in "rare" cases actually counts the most adverse effects as evidence of amalgam safety
nightlight - 10 Oct 2006 18:15 GMT >>The problem isn't that they counted amalgams. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > most > adverse effects as evidence of amalgam safety I think that epidemiological method, unless very carefully designed for this specific purpose and carried over long time, is not very sensitive in detecting long term subtle and far away effects of chronic, low dose mercury poisoning. Direct experiments on primates (or even lower animals which live long enough for low dose mercury toxicity to manifest itself), where the animals with and without amalgams are observed and tested over many years, would work better. Human and animal bodies are marvelous biochemical systems which can compensate and work around lots of damage. Of course, each compensatory process would have a cost downstream, hence one would need to follow fairly long chains of causes and effects to tally the total cost to the organism. Since the compensatory systems are used for variety of repair & detox tasks unrelated to mercury damage, epidemiology & bulk statistics are much too coarse grained to accurately attribute the blame for the final harmful effects to a single far away cause.
Additional complication for direct and indirect studies is that people with different genetic profiles are affected differently by amalgams. For example, the effect on brain depends on the actual concentration of Hg in the brain, which for any given exposure level depends on genetics of biochemical detox, such as ApoE2,3,4 alelles. People with ApoE4 alelle from both parents, which is more common in northern Europeans, would detox most poorly and would have the highest Hg concentrations in the brain, while people with ApoE2 from both parents would have the lowest Hg concentration (ApoE3 alelle, most common among southern Europans, falls in between on detox scale). Further series of subtle genetic dependencies enter at the repair and damage compensation/workaround phases.
The bottom line, though, is that mercury in low doses, such as those which can be produced by amalgams, is a demonstrable toxin to neurons, as well as to variety of other cells & larger systems in the human and animal bodies. The only variation among individuals is the pattern and degree of damage, but everyone is damaged by them. Hence, the amalgams are at best a Russian roulette using gun with perhaps 5-10 percent of chambers loaded -- if you're lucky you will avoid the most serious consequences, such as MS, Alzheimers, Parkinson disease etc.
Amalgams should therefore not only be banished from dental practice, but existent amalgams should be carefully removed and people already damaged should be compensated, all at public expense (since we are all responsible for the government we elect, hence for the bureaucracies they create). At least some "health" bureaucrats, "scientists" (such as the lead authors of this and similar fraudelant studies), CEOs, "educators" and "experts", from public and private sector, who deliberately deceived the public, dental students and dentists should be pursued through courts and punished as criminals.
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 12 Oct 2006 03:27 GMT I'll do composites any and all days of the week-more money, more sensitivity, they are weaker=more breakdown, increased chance of RCT leads to more money. SO...why do you think there is a great conspiracy to keep amalgam ? ? ? ? Have you ever researched what's in a composite ("white") filling..hmmmmm???
> >>The problem isn't that they counted amalgams. > > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > deliberately deceived the public, dental students and dentists should > be pursued through courts and punished as criminals. nightlight - 12 Oct 2006 11:22 GMT > I'll do composites any and all days of the week-more money, more > sensitivity, they are weaker=more breakdown, increased chance of RCT > leads to more money. SO...why do you think there is a great > conspiracy to keep amalgam ? ? ? ? Have you heard of tobacco industry conspiracy to hide harm and addictiveness of tobacco? Mercury is far more toxic and harmful to humans than even most direct tobacco smoke. For example, while it is practically impossible to induce lung cancers in lab animals by having them breathe smoke, even when inhaling equivalents of hundreds of cigarettes per day, it is very easy to demonstrate harm from mercury in very small amounts to virtually any lifeform, from single cell to human organisms.
The dental industry has no choice but to stick tightly to its "silver" story, otherwise it would face the mother of all class action lawsuits. As long as they stick unwaveringly to their `"silver" fillings are safe and effective' mantra, they get paid both ways, to put in the mercury into mouths of their patients, then even more to remove it safely for those who ask years later when the damage is manifest, even when the mercury filling is dentally perfectly fine. The alternative is simply unthinkable for dental industry.
While it may surprise those who still believe that TV commercials are all truth and whole truth, most people eventually learn, usually by age of seven or so, that it's not all they see on TV is true and that money has a way to make people lie (and much more), let alone remain silent.
Note that, as with many other toxins, there are, of course, genetic differences in efficiency of mercury elimination. For example, the three Apolipoprotein alleles, ApoE2,3,4 affect how efficiently the mercury is excreted from the brain, which in turn determines the rate of mental deterioration (such as onset of senility) due to mercury exposure from amalgams. People with ApoE2 allele from both parents eliminate mercury from brain the most efficiently, while those with double ApoE4 the least efficiently (ApE3 falls in between). It happens that ApoE4 frequency is highest in northern Europe (hence they're more affected by mercury from amalgams) and it drops in favor of ApoE3 which is most prevalent in southern Europe (hence the Mediteranian population is less affected). The IQ of European populations has precisely the opposite gradient, it drops from north to south. Hence, among Europeans, the populations whose brains are damaged more by mercury also have higher IQ. Hence an IQ drop of ApoE4 population due to mercury exposure from amalgams would simply bring it down toward IQ of ApoE2,E3 populations (which is less affected) i.e. it would merely reduce European IQ gradient, bunching everyone toward the middle.
Interestingly, the highly promoted (by ADA, EPA and other parties responsible for amalgam use) amalgam 2006 study was done in Portugal, which is among Europeans the population the least sensitive to mercury toxicity to brain (due to larger admixture of African genotype than other European populations). Further, the study observed kids (mostly with ApoE3/E2 alleles) only for few years while the effects on brain, such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's take a bit longer to develop and any honest study would not look for such effects in children. Clearly, the study was optimized (in many ways) to find no harmful effects. See also additional critique of this study at:
"Unmasking The Unscientific JAMA 2006 CHILDRENS AMALGAM STUDY" http://www.bioprobe.com/ReadNews.asp?article=95
Of course, the fact that dental industry has to use such means to "prove" that "silver" fillings are not harmful only proves that they know better.
> Have you ever researched what's in a composite ("white") > filling..hmmmmm??? There is no one "white" filling. Porcelain fillings (as inlays) are probably the least problematic. Even though they do have aluminum, it is not present in porcelain as alloy or amalgam (which is a weak non-chemical mixture of components) but in a form of an orders of magnitude stronger chemical bond.
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 12 Oct 2006 12:07 GMT Again, I'll do porcelain fillings as much as you want me to; even MORE money!!! All of your scientific regurgitation on genetics I would never contest, who could?? You are absolutely right-Hg is a neurotoxin-but the risk at the concentration in amalgam is worth the benefits derived in dentistry. Radiation causes cancer-but the risk of it for radiography, detecting structural failures in airplane turbines, and for cancer treatment is WORTH the BENEFIT. Capish the analogy? Placing Hg fillings for the future 'financial gain' of removing them later on is ludicrous, we'll get a better return on 'white' fillings again. The notion that dentistry must 'hide' the real truth about silver fillings because of a looming class-action lawsuit does not hold water, otherwise we'd all be in the courts, eagerly smacking our lips and gleefully rubbing our hands together for a piece of the pie from the class action lawsuit against PCB's in transformers, plasticizers in kid's toys, food bags, chlorine in paper products, DEET in bug spay, selenium in photocopiers, mercury in catalytic converters and so on. It will never happen, and dentistry is not worried that it will. At this time of recent, double-blind, peer-reviewed, independent science, the benefits still outweigh the risks, and this is what the courts will look at. When dentistry bans Hg-laden amalgam and the likes of yourselves are throwing your hats in the air and whooping a cheer of victory-I'll be right there beside, you-cheering for my increased income, placing my bis-phenyl laden 'white fillings' and cementing my porcelain inlays with resin (ie: carcinogen-containing) luting cements.
> > I'll do composites any and all days of the week-more money, more > > sensitivity, they are weaker=more breakdown, increased chance of RCT [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > (which is a weak non-chemical mixture of components) but > in a form of an orders of magnitude stronger chemical bond. trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 12 Oct 2006 12:11 GMT PS: "Hg far more toxic than cigarette smoke??? I almost spit out my Cheerios!!! You are kidding.....please don't tell me you composed your previous reply with a Marlboro in your hand!!!!! trelbrier...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> Again, I'll do porcelain fillings as much as you want me to; even MORE > money!!! All of your scientific regurgitation on genetics I would [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > (which is a weak non-chemical mixture of components) but > > in a form of an orders of magnitude stronger chemical bond. nightlight - 12 Oct 2006 13:34 GMT > Radiation causes cancer-but the risk of > it for radiography, detecting structural failures in airplane turbines, > and for cancer treatment is WORTH the BENEFIT. Capish the analogy? It is always a matter of risk/benefit ratio. That's why the dental industry is working so hard to misrepresent the risks (with no means considered too low, as their latest study illustrates; cf. the critique at the link posted). Consider how cheap is their mindless insistence on calling it euphemistically "silver" filling, even though half of it is mercury while silver is only 20-30 percent.
While the benefits might have outweighed risks as far as science knew in 19th century, especially considering the average lifespans of that time, that has long ceased to be so. At various points since then the dental and amalgam industries have crossed from ignorant and negligent into unethical and finally into domain of criminal behavior in the last couple decades. There are only so many lawyers to go around. Give it some time, though, until the packs of lawyers are done with the junk food industry.
> PS: "Hg far more toxic than cigarette smoke??? I almost > spit out my Cheerios!!! You are kidding.....please don't > tell me you composed your previous reply with a Marlboro > in your hand!!!!! After offering no specifics or substance of any sort in defense of the phony JAMA 2006 study, you proceeded to demonstrate further facets of your ignorance about relative toxicities of tobacco smoke and mercury. Well, thanks for being so helpful.
I suppose one should not expect any better from our modern day Mad Hatters, the folks inhaling mercury dust and vapors every day for much of their lives. FYI, unlike nicotine, which is, in doses obtained from smoking, a beneficial neuro-stimulant and among others, protective against Alzheimer's and Parkinson's (cf. http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm ), the mercury effects on brain are precisely the opposite (in the usual ranges of respective exposures).
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 12 Oct 2006 14:17 GMT > > Radiation causes cancer-but the risk of > > it for radiography, detecting structural failures in airplane turbines, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > means considered too low, as their latest study illustrates; cf. > the critique at the link posted). Consider how cheap is their
> mindless insistence on calling it euphemistically "silver" filling, > even though half of it is mercury while silver is only 20-30 percent. It was not the dentists or the industry that EVER called them "silver fillings, it was the public in response to what they look like. It makes an easy descriptor for the public.
> While the benefits might have outweighed risks as far as science > knew in 19th century, especially considering the average lifespans [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > toxicities of tobacco smoke and mercury. Well, thanks > for being so helpful. Call me ignorant-I have no problem with that; I will not even try to refute your interpretation of the evidence because I don't have the time to read all of the peer-reviewed journals that you obviously do. I do know what comes from peer reviewed journals up my alley. "Phony JAMA study"; your paranoid opinion. "They're all in on it. right??"
> I suppose one should not expect any better from our > modern day Mad Hatters, the folks inhaling mercury dust [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the mercury effects on brain are precisely the opposite (in the usual > ranges of respective exposures). ...and I knew it...you ARE a smoker! (probably a lawyer, too). Go ahead and justify your pathetic habit to yourself! I find it always amusing to talk to the hooked smoker who cannot kick their habit, therefore they justify it's need. Anyway, I don't think you'll find any dentist that wouldn't admit that Hg is not good for you, it comes down to -does it's use justify the risk?? And so far the answer is yes. I notice you didn't comment on the components of white fillings or the cements required to bond your porcelain inlays/onlays. Tha answer????
DON'T GET CAVITIES !!!!!!!!!!
Tony Bad - 12 Oct 2006 17:40 GMT > ...and I knew it...you ARE a smoker! (probably a lawyer, too). Go > ahead and justify your pathetic habit to yourself! I find it always [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > DON'T GET CAVITIES !!!!!!!!!! One of my patients who consistently banged the amalgam drum was also a smoker. I didn't understand why he was so worried about something of, at best, debatable risk, yet engaged in something with a clear and obvious risk. Didn't make sense to me.
T
nightlight - 12 Oct 2006 19:49 GMT > One of my patients who consistently banged the amalgam drum was also a > smoker. I didn't understand why he was so worried about something of, at > best, debatable risk, yet engaged in something with a clear and obvious > risk. Didn't make sense to me. It's not your fault. It is hard to make sense of half-truths, junk science and propaganda.
Tobacco is protective against the toxic effects of mercury on brain, such as those found in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's diseases. Smokers at any age have less than half the rates of these diseases than non-smokers. The smokers who quit double after few years their odds for getting these diseases, nearly catching up to never-smokers. Further, the brains of Alzheimer's patients show significant excess of mercury. In test tube the mercury in similar or lower concentration than those commonly found in brains of people with amalgams and who carry single or double ApoE4 allele, produces the same tangles on neurons as those characteristic of Alzheimer's disease (mercury is the only known substance so far that produces such effect on neurons).
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/02/Sep02/091602/80027dd5.pdf http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/alzheimers.htm
Note also that almost all longevity record holders, such as those above 110 and still mentally sharp, are life long smokers. Here are some links and summaries of little publicized studies and facts on smoking and anti-smoking:
"The Scientific Scandal of Antismoking" http://members.iinet.com.au/~ray/TSSOASb.html
"In defense of Smokers" (online book) http://www.lcolby.com/
Some studies on therapeutic effects of smoking:
http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm http://www.data-yard.net/10/nicoplus.htm http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/life.htm http://www.forces.org/evidence/hamilton/other/oldest.htm http://www.forces.org/evidence/hamilton/other/nicotine.htm http://speakeasyforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/173601742/m/7541044041
Of course, there is a statistical _correlation_ between smoking and poor health (as well as with variety of other problems). Much of it, perhaps all, is the result of strong social pressures against smoking which have reshaped the population of smokers in recent decades, turning smoking into a mere passive marker of various negative traits statistically associated with that highly skewed sample (e.g. risk takers, low socioeconomic status, unhealthy & stressful job environment,... ). As demonstrated in the studies cited & described at the first link above, large controlled experiments spanning decades, in which subjects are randomly assigned to either smoking cessation or to no intervention group, showed no gain, and even increase in some diseases, for the smoking cessation group. Similarly, the studies examining health problems of smokers and non-smokers in otherwise fairly homogeneous groups, such as lung cancers among asbestos workers, have found that lung cancers were much more prevalent among the non-smoking workers. Curiosly, among smokers in general, the lung cancers are also significantly more prevalent among those who do _not_ inhale the smoke than those who do inhale.
------ quoting from ----------------------------
"The Scientific Scandal of Antismoking" http://members.iinet.com.au/~ray/TSSOASb.html ------------------------------------------------
By the end of the century general opinion had changed. The Royal College of Physicians of London promoted smoking for its benefits to health and advised which brands were best. Smoking was compulsory in schools. An Eton schoolboy later recalled that "he was never whipped so much in his life as he was one morning for not smoking". As recently as 1942 Price’s textbook of medicine recommended smoking to relieve asthma.
These strong opinions for and against smoking were not supported by much evidence either way until 1950 when Richard Doll and Bradford Hill showed that smokers seemed more likely to develop lung cancer. A campaign was begun to limit smoking. But Sir Ronald Fisher, arguably the greatest statistician of the 20th century, had noticed a bizarre anomaly in their results. Doll and Hill had asked their subjects if they inhaled. Fisher showed that men who inhaled were significantly less likely to develop lung cancer than non-inhalers. As Fisher said, "even equality would be a fair knock-out for the theory that smoke in the lung causes cancer."
Doll and Hill decided to follow their preliminary work with a much larger and protracted study. British doctors were asked to take part as subjects. 40.000 volunteered and 20,000 refused. The relative health of smokers, nonsmokers and particularly ex-smokers would be compared over the course of future years. In this trial smokers would no longer be asked whether they inhaled, in spite of the earlier result. Fisher commented: "I suppose the subject of inhaling had become distasteful to the research workers, and they just wanted to hear as little about inhaling as possible". And: "Should not these workers have let the world know not only that they had discovered the cause of lung cancer (cigarettes) but also that they had discovered the means of its prevention (inhaling cigarette smoke)? How had the MRC [Medical Research Council] the heart to withhold this information from the thousands who would otherwise die of lung cancer?"
Five year’s later, in 1964, Doll and Hill responded to this damning criticism. They did not explain why they had withdrawn the question about inhaling. Instead they complained that Fisher had not examined their more recent results but they agreed their results were mystifying. Fisher had died 2 years earlier and could not reply.
This refusal to consider conflicting evidence is the negation of the scientific method. It has been the hallmark of fifty years of antismoking propaganda and what with good reason may well be described as one of the greatest scandals in 500 years of modern science.
-------- end quote
These anti-tobacco social pressures and the resulting mass hysteria being whipped up in recent decades are not accidental. Hundreds of billions are being transferred every year from the pockets of smokers to the pockets of those creating and financing all the "grass roots "antismoking organizations and buying the junk science and politicians in the support of their extortion racket. For example, of $60 per carton of cigarettes in my state (MA), $15 goes to the Big Tobacco, tobacco farmers and all the sales and marketing. The remaining $45 goes to the Big Anti-tobacco. Some links with more details on the money trail are here:
http://cleanairquality.blogspot.com/2006/08/its-time-for-full-scale-congressiona l.html http://www.forces.org/writers/kjono/pdf/tobacco_control_and_fda_regulation.pdf
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 12 Oct 2006 20:35 GMT > It's not your fault. It is hard to make sense of half-truths, > junk science and propaganda. I do not ordinarily respond to the flat earth society--please forgive me. But my father, who was a heavy smoker for over 30 years and who just last week endured a lung lobectomy for adenoca, this is just a bit much for me right now. As someone who has seen some of the many, many people killed by tobacco (and first-hand seen the effects of tobacco in the mouth), I think you can take your no-doubt-Altria-endorsed bullshit and stick it up your propagandistic arse. BTW folks, on a mostly unrelated note, I rented the following movie last weekend--recommended.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
nightlight - 12 Oct 2006 20:55 GMT > ... you can take your no-doubt-Altria-endorsed bullshit and stick it > up your propagandistic arse. > ... > Steve Thanks Steve for the informative post. I am sure the readers here can hardly wait for the next installment of your wit.
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 12 Oct 2006 21:04 GMT Steve,
Sorry to hear of your dad, I have experienced thisx2 with my folks. I find this fellow curiously interesting to see how he dedicates (apparently all) of his time to his pet project "Death to Amalgam-Slinging Dentists", yet defends the so-obvious smoking. Notice how he refutes the "half-truths and lies" with no-truths and bullshit? He is an interesting oddity for sure. We must not taunt him, however, as he has been expanding his mind with Nico-vitamins ala Marlboros!!!
> > ... you can take your no-doubt-Altria-endorsed bullshit and stick it > > up your propagandistic arse. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks Steve for the informative post. I am sure the readers > here can hardly wait for the next installment of your wit. Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 12 Oct 2006 22:53 GMT > Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > him, however, as he has been expanding his mind with Nico-vitamins ala > Marlboros!!! I've been here a while, Doc--since about 2000. I've seen 'em come, and I've seen 'em go. I also have considerable tolerance for other people's views--even patently (to me) ridiculous ones, so long as they cannot hurt the people I care about. I also have a healthy respect for the fungibility of the "conventional wisdom". But I hadn't heard anyone referring to tobacco as a tonic in a long time (I know doctors endorsed Camels back in the '40s), and it was just a little too raw for me. Thanks for the kind words about my dad. Just found out this morning his nodes and pleura are clean, so we're optimistic.
Thanks, Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Mark Probert - 12 Oct 2006 23:43 GMT >> It's not your fault. It is hard to make sense of half-truths, >> junk science and propaganda. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who just last week endured a lung lobectomy for adenoca, this is just a > bit much for me right now. I wish your dad well.
> As someone who has seen some of the many, many people killed by > tobacco (and first-hand seen the effects of tobacco in the mouth), I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Steven Bornfeld - 13 Oct 2006 03:02 GMT > I wish your dad well. Thanks, Mark!
Steve
>> As someone who has seen some of the many, many people killed by >> tobacco (and first-hand seen the effects of tobacco in the mouth), I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Steve David Wright - 13 Oct 2006 05:19 GMT >Further, the brains of Alzheimer's >patients show significant excess of mercury. Oh, sure they do. Let's see some references.
-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "George Bush is a gruesome boob." -- Bill Maher
nightlight - 13 Oct 2006 09:19 GMT >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's >>patients show significant excess of mercury. > > Oh, sure they do. Let's see some references. Apparently you haven't checked the links provided. Right after the sentence that followed the one you quoted there is a link to a page titled:
"Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels and Alzheimer's Disease" http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/alzheimers.htm
See also the second link posted there:
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/02/Sep02/091602/80027dd5.pdf
for further biochemical parallelism between the physiological signatures of Alzheimer's (e.g. neuronal tangles) and the indistinguishable low concentration mercury effects on neurons.
Note also that the strong protective effects of tobacco smoke against Alzheimer's which have been known for decades as a well established epidemiological fact (so much so that nicotine patches were recommended for Alzheimer's patients), in light of the above relation of Alzheimer's and Hg accumulation in the brains, also have a direct biochemical explanation: several components in the tobacco smoke stimulate both the production capacity and the baseline levels of glutathione (and various other antioxidants), all as a side-effect of the need to remove tobacco smoke metabolites. Since glutathione is also the chief mercury eliminator in humans (via liver-bile-fecal pathway which is responsible for 90% of human mercury elimination), at any exposure level the smokers end up having much stronger excretion of Hg than non-smokers and thus suffer far less from its effects on brain and immune system (e.g. smokers also have lower rates of various autoimmune diseases than non-smokers, see the other links posted, especially the page: http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm ).
At the other end of the glutathione spectrum are autistic children who tend to have genetically very low glutathione production, which in turn increases the mercury (such as that from thimerosal used until recently in all childhood vaccines, also in fungicides, maternal amalgams & cosmetics esp. skin whiteners, fish,...) accumulation in their brains. The rise of autism in recent decades, which closely followed in time and space the massive proliferation of the thimerosal laden childhood vaccines, is paralleled by the simultaneous rise in the auto-immune diseases in vaccinated children (e.g. allergies, asthma), which at least in part can be attributed to the side-effects of mercury toxicity. True to its role as a paid agent of the Big Pharma (which not only makes big bucks from the vaccines but even more from the treatment of the damage they do to children), and similarly to its position in the ongoing dental amalgam battle, the FDA acted as a fox guarding the hen house by fighting tooth and nail the requests from scientists to ban thimerosal from children vaccines (and is still fighting its removal from others, such as flu vaccines, also given to children). As result of the shameful FDA and CDC delaying actions, the thimerosal was banned in pet vaccines years before it was banned in children vaccines. Hopefully some day we will see at least few of these corrupt bureaucrats and their Big Pharma puppeteers go to prison for the needless damage to hundreds of thousands of children.
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 13 Oct 2006 12:02 GMT > > > >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > corrupt bureaucrats and their Big Pharma puppeteers go to prison > for the needless damage to hundreds of thousands of children. ..."Hopefully some day we will see ALL of these corrupt beurocrats and their big tobacco-producing puppeteers AND the mindless, spineless smokers go to prison for the needless damage of thousands of children due to second-hand smoke. "
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 13 Oct 2006 13:23 GMT PS: Had a good laugh looking at NL's sources "published literature", Just because it sits on a website or on the rack next to the National Enquirer does not put it in the same league as JAMA or JADA!! But then again, I know know it's like trying to convince him the sky is blue. anyway, puff away......we like it when you do that. Place a bag over your head while you do it, so you don't lose any of those mind-expanding nico-vitamins.
> > > > > >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > smokers go to prison for the needless damage of thousands of children > due to second-hand smoke. " nightlight - 13 Oct 2006 17:17 GMT >>>"Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels >>>and Alzheimer's Disease" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> >>>http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/02/Sep02/091602/80027dd5.pdf
> PS: Had a good laugh looking at NL's sources "published literature", > Just because it sits on a website or on the rack next to the National [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > your head while you do it, so you don't lose any of those > mind-expanding nico-vitamins. It seems that by the time you came back from checking links to type in your "reply" you forgot what was on the page you just visited. Breathing mercury vapors and dust all your life can do that to your short term memory, ADA's mantras notwithstanding.
I gave two links in the post you replied to. The first link is a page of references & abstracts on relation between brain concentration of mercury and Alzheimer's. That list starts and ends with JADA papers. The second link is B. Haley's summary of the research on that topic, which includes a brief critique of the first JADA paper (the one which didn't find, because it clearly didn't want to find, relation between mercury from amalgams and Alzheimer's).
In any case, other than knee-jerk barking at the messenger, you have no specific critique, or anything of any substance at all, to say on the papers and studies mentioned. Just so you don't get depressed, the responses of other dentists here are even less pertinent. Altogether, the collective vapidity of the responses here demonstrates quite well what breathing elemental mercury vapors and dust for few years can do to human brains.
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 13 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT My question is.....WHY would they NOT want to find a link between Alzheimer's and Hg?? Then they will ban amalgam, we carry on with composite, porcelain , wood and so forth, and life goes on. There is very little "money" in 'mercury fillings, both for the dentist and the dental industry. I (my opinion) do not think the threat of a lawsuit is the force behind the 'conspiracy'. And why would all the independent research (and I mean legitimate studies....I'm assuming you're smart enough to know what that entails) 'protect' amalgam? DOn't tell me their getting paid too. My theory....they are not protecting amalgam, the evidence is inconclusive, therefore the risk is worth the benefit.
> >>> > >>>"Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > elemental mercury vapors and dust for few years can do to > human brains. nightlight - 13 Oct 2006 19:28 GMT > My question is.....WHY would they NOT want to find a link between > Alzheimer's and Hg?? That's a transparent attempt to sidetrack the debate. The motivation of ADA officials is entirely irrelevant for the scientific question of Hg role in Alzheimer's disease. There is a body of scientific literature, as indicated at the link given, establishing this role. Your attempt to divert the debate into psychoanalysis of motives of ADA officials and lawyers is an acknowledgment that you have no answer to the scientific facts already established.
> Then they will ban amalgam, we carry on with > composite, porcelain , wood and so forth, and life goes on. There is > very little "money" in 'mercury fillings, both for the dentist and the > dental industry. I (my opinion) do not think the threat of a lawsuit > is the force behind the 'conspiracy'. You may wish to examine tobacco industry lawsuits to see why ADA might not wish its internal documents, emails, meeting notes, insider testimonies under oath,... brought up into open. These kinds of materials would likely show their damage control efforts over decades, ranging from unethical to illegal, to keep the public in dark on hazards of mercury amalgams.
> And why would all the > independent research (and I mean legitimate studies....I'm assuming > you're smart enough to know what that entails) 'protect' amalgam? > DOn't tell me their getting paid too. My theory....they are not > protecting amalgam, the evidence is inconclusive, therefore the risk is > worth the benefit. There is plenty of legitimate research showing harmfulness of amalgams. I provided some links to papers related to Alzheimer's. Just because ADA approved researchers don't wish to measure directly the amounts Hg vapors released by amalgams (which many others have done and published in peer reviewed papers) or pursue the effects of these levels of exposure (which again, many others have done), that doesn't mean the evidence is "inconclusive". Other countries, especially those in which ApoE4 allele (see earlier posts in this thread) is more prevalent, such as northern Europeans, have taken strong measures to eliminate mercury in dental restorations. The ADA position (supported also by FDA/CDC staffers) you and other dentists here are parroting has already been judged as "unreasonable" by the recent (oct 2006) scientific panel reviewing the research on amalgam safety:
Transcripts from the FDA hearings: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/cdrh06.html#dentalproductspanel
Informal summaries & links to references: http://www.mercurypoisoned.com/FDA%20hearings/advisory_panel_rejects_amalgam_saf ety.html
Haley's critique: http://www.mercurypoisoned.com/research/haley_review_of_phony_science_concerning _amalgam_safety.html
Other reactions: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=FDA+amalgam+hearings+unreason able&sa=N&tab=nw
Peter Bowditch - 14 Oct 2006 00:34 GMT >The second link is B. Haley's summary >of the research on that topic Bwahahahahah!!!
Boyd Haley!! Old 50% Boyd!
Now there's a great authority on stuff.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
nightlight - 14 Oct 2006 03:14 GMT >>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Now there's a great authority on stuff. It seems you clicked the wrong link. Your newsgroup is here:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clueless/
Rich - 14 Oct 2006 04:07 GMT >>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It seems you clicked the wrong link. Your newsgroup is here: So how long have you had fecalencephalopathy?
 Signature
--Rich
Recommended websites:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles http://www.acahf.org.au http://www.quackwatch.org/ http://www.skeptic.com/ http://www.csicop.org/
Jan Drew - 14 Oct 2006 08:09 GMT >>>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So how long have you had fecalencephalopathy? 00000000000000--such a big word.
*I don't give a damn if Peter lies to you, this newsgroup, his mother or the pope*.
http://www.ratbagsLIES
Three dead Children
http://tinyurl.com/9hkaj
http://tinyurl.com/bgqou
> http://www.acahf.org.au [snip spam]
NO medical training
> http://www.quackwatch.org/ QUACK QUACK
*Alternative therapy" is a marketing term that should not be permitted.*
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/98news/alternat.htm Schools Opening Up to Alternative Medicine
*While a few of those so accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical care*
The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:
a.. Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment
That clearly is a LIE!!!!!
http://tinyurl.com/8qeg3
http://tinyurl.com/8caw5
http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/12/1508
http://tinyurl.com/7ajgz
{spin spam}
Jan Drew - 14 Oct 2006 08:03 GMT >>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clueless/ LOL! You must learn about the many LIES on Peter Bow-itch's website.
Peter Bowditch - 14 Oct 2006 09:15 GMT >>>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >LOL! You must learn about the many LIES on Peter Bow-itch's website. Which site is that, Jan? If you are going to refer to sites owned by people who don't post here you should always provide the URL.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 14 Oct 2006 09:20 GMT "Peter Bow-itch"
>>>>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Which site is that, Jan? Posted @ 2:09 am
http://www.ratbagsLIES
Three dead Children
http://tinyurl.com/9hkaj
http://tinyurl.com/bgqou
> http://www.acahf.org.au [snip spam]
NO medical training
> http://www.quackwatch.org/ QUACK QUACK
*Alternative therapy" is a marketing term that should not be permitted.*
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/98news/alternat.htm Schools Opening Up to Alternative Medicine
*While a few of those so accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical care*
The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:
a.. Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment
That clearly is a LIE!!!!!
http://tinyurl.com/8qeg3
http://tinyurl.com/8caw5
http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/12/1508
http://tinyurl.com/7ajgz
{spin spam}
Peter Bowditch - 14 Oct 2006 09:48 GMT >"Peter Bow-itch" >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >http://www.ratbagsLIES That's not a working URL. Please try to answer the question.
>Three dead Children > >http://tinyurl.com/9hkaj That's Google's web site. It doesn't seem to belong to Peter Bow-itch, whoever he is.
>http://tinyurl.com/bgqou Another Google site. What are you trying to demonstrate here? When are we going to be pointed to a site owned by this Peter Bow-itch?
>> http://www.acahf.org.au An excellent site owned by a non-profit organisation, but still not Peter Bow-itch's site.
>[snip spam] > > NO medical training What does this mean, Jan? Are you referring to yourself?
>> http://www.quackwatch.org/ That site seems to belong to a retired psychiatrist named Dr Stephen Barrett. Is Peter Bow-itch an alias Dr Barrett uses? If not, why is Quackwatch being mentioned.
>QUACK QUACK > >*Alternative therapy" is a marketing term that should not be permitted.* Fair comment. Where does it appear on the site owned by this mysterious Peter Bow-itch?
>http://www.napa.ufl.edu/98news/alternat.htm >Schools Opening Up to Alternative Medicine [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to >such bogus treatments when they need real medical care* Good stuff. I might put it up on my web site. Do I have to ask Peter Bow-itch for permission (assuming that it came from his site) or can I just claim permission in the same way that someone here once claimed to have permission to publish "Stupid Skeptic Tricks"?
>The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded: > > a.. Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment > >That clearly is a LIE!!!!! Is it a lie that NCAHF has concluded this? Please try to use English as she is spoke.
>http://tinyurl.com/8qeg3 Peter Bow-itch owns PubMed?
Do you know that there are 18 papers indexed by PubMed that can be found by using the search term "phlogiston"? Does this make phlogiston real?
>http://tinyurl.com/8caw5 I'd be scared to take a leak if I thought that someone was going to stick needles into me, but I don't see what this has to do with either amalgams or the apocryphal Peter Bow-itch
>http://rheumatology.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/12/1508 Does this mysterious Peter Bow-itch own the journal Rheumatology? He doesn't seem to be any of the authors of this paper, and it doesn't seem to have much to do with amalgams or the idiocy of Boyd Haley.
>http://tinyurl.com/7ajgz Does this Peter Bow-itch get migraines? Do these migraines come from amalgams? What has this article to do with anything?
>{spin spam} Are you having flashbacks to your LSD experiences, Jan?
There's that name again. But where is his web site with all the lies?
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Jan Drew - 15 Oct 2006 04:01 GMT "Peter Bow-itch" Harassing again.
>>>>>The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>>>of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Which site is that, Jan? If you are going to refer to sites owned by > people who don't post here you should always provide the URL. Posted today. Now--are you done making a fool of yourself?
Peter Bowditch - 15 Oct 2006 04:46 GMT >"Peter Bow-itch" Harassing again. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Posted today. Now--are you done making a fool of yourself? You posted, in response to a polite request to show us the web site full of lies belonging to a "peter Bow-itch":
a) An unworkable URL that lead nowhere.
b) Two links to Google Groups (which is not a site owned by this Peter Bow-itch, whoever he is).
c) A link to the excellent site belonging to the Australian Council Against Health Fraud.
d) A link to Quackwatch
e) Some links to PubMed.
So for you to say that the link to this Peter Bow-itch's web site was posted earlier today is a LIE.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Mark Probert - 14 Oct 2006 15:56 GMT >>> The second link is B. Haley's summary >>> of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clueless/ Does Boyd Haley post there? I thought he was licking his wounds when he was recently barred from testifying as an expert.
Jan Drew - 15 Oct 2006 04:12 GMT >>>> The second link is B. Haley's summary >>>> of the research on that topic [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Does Boyd Haley post there? I thought he was licking his wounds when he > was recently barred from testifying as an expert. Too bad, you have NO shame for being disbarred. HYPOCRITE!
In the Matter of Mark Probert (Admitted as Mark S. Probert), a Suspended Attorney, Respondent. Grievance Committee for the Tenth Judicial District, Petitioner.
92-02731
SUPREME COURT OF NEW YORK, APPELLATE DIVISION, SECOND DEPARTMENT
183 A.D.2d 282; 590 N.Y.S.2d 747
November 9, 1992, Decided
PRIOR HISTORY: [***1]
Disciplinary proceedings instituted by the Grievance Committee for the Tenth Judicial District. Respondent was admitted to the Bar on February 15, 1978, at a term of the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court in the Second Judicial Department, under the name Mark S. Probert.
DISPOSITION: Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline upon the respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is granted; and it is further,
HEADNOTES: Attorney and Client - Disciplinary Proceedings
Respondent attorney, who is charged with 22 counts of failing to cooperate with investigations of alleged misconduct by the Grievance Committee, and who has failed to answer or appear, is disbarred.
COUNSEL:
Frank A. Finnerty, Jr., Westbury (Muriel L. Gennosa of counsel), for petitioner.
JUDGES: Mangano, P. J., Thompson, Bracken, Sullivan and Harwood, JJ., concur.
Ordered that the petitioner's motion to impose discipline upon the respondent based upon his failure to appear or answer is granted; and it is further,
Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary Law § 90, effective immediately, the respondent, Mark Probert, is disbarred and his name is stricken from the roll of attorneys and counselors-at-law; and it is further,
Ordered that the respondent shall continue to comply with this Court's rules governing the conduct of disbarred, suspended and resigned attorneys (22 NYCRR 691.10); and it is further,
Ordered that pursuant to Judiciary [***2] Law § 90, the respondent, Mark Probert, is commanded to continue to desist and refrain (1) from practicing law in any form, either as principal or as agent, clerk or employee of another, (2) from appearing as an attorney or counselor-at-law before any court, Judge, Justice, board, commission or other public authority, (3) from giving to another an opinion as to the law or its application or any advice in relation thereto, and (4) from holding himself out in any way as an attorney and counselor-at-law.
OPINIONBY: Per Curiam.
OPINION: [*282]
[**747] By decision and order of this Court dated September 29, 1989, the respondent was suspended from the practice of law until the further order of this Court based upon his failure to cooperate with the Grievance Committee. By further order of this Court dated June 4, 1992, the Grievance Committee was authorized to institute and prosecute a disciplinary proceeding [*283] against the respondent and the Honorable Moses M. Weinstein was appointed as Special Referee.
[**748] A notice of petition and petition was personally served upon the respondent on July 2, 1992. No answer was forthcoming. The petitioner now moves to hold the [***3] respondent in default. The motion was personally served upon the respondent on August 14, 1992. The respondent has failed to submit any papers in response to the default motion.
The charges involve 22 counts of the respondent's failure to cooperate with the Grievance Committee in its investigations into complaints of professional misconduct.
The charges, if established, would require the imposition of a disciplinary sanction against the respondent. Since the respondent has chosen not to appear or answer in these proceedings, the charges must be deemed established. The petitioner's motion to hold the respondent in default and impose discipline is, therefore, granted. Accordingly, the respondent is disbarred and his name is stricken from the roll of attorneys and counselors-at-law, effective immediately
Source:
NY UNIFIED COURT SYSTEM, ATTORNEY REGIST. UNIT
Currency Status:
ARCHIVE RECORD
NAME & PROFESSIONAL INFORMATION
Name:
MARK PROBERT
Date Of Birth:
11/XX/1946
Gender:
MALE
Address:
1698 WEBSTER AVE
MERRICK, NY 11566
County:
NASSAU
Phone:
516-968-5572
EMPLOYER INFORMATION
Employer:
MARK S PROBERT ESQ
Organization:
PERSON
LICENSING INFORMATION
Licensing Agency:
NY STATE OFFICE OF COURT ADMINISTRATION
License/Certification Type:
ATTORNEY
License Number:
1253889
Issue Date:
00/00/1978
License Status:
DISBARRED
License State:
NY
Tells you birthday.............
From: Mark Probert - view profile Date: Sun, Feb 11 2001 4:17 pm Email: Mark Probert <markpr...@my-deja.com> Groups: k12.chat.teacher
Noah has had one since 11/26/96 (my birthday).
Jan Drew - 14 Oct 2006 07:48 GMT "Peter Bow-itch"
> trelbrierley@sympatico.ca wrote: >> My question is.....WHY would they NOT want to find a link between [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Other reactions: > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&q=FDA+amalgam+hearings+unreason able&sa=N&tab=nw Mark Probert - 13 Oct 2006 14:21 GMT > > > >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/02/Sep02/091602/80027dd5.pdf I see your two Boyd Haley's and request real proof.
nightlight - 13 Oct 2006 17:16 GMT >> > >> >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I see your two Boyd Haley's and request real proof. The first link lists no Haley's papers. The second link is Haley's summary of literature and his research on the topic (also on thimerosal).
Mark Probert - 13 Oct 2006 21:20 GMT >>> > >>> >>Further, the brains of Alzheimer's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > The first link lists no Haley's papers. Who do you think owns Altcorp?
The second link
> is Haley's summary of literature and his research on the > topic (also on thimerosal). nightlight - 13 Oct 2006 21:34 GMT >>>> "Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels >>>> and Alzheimer's Disease" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Who do you think owns Altcorp? If that's your best shot at the scientific references listed then the scientific argument is settled. Apparently, having nothing to say on the scientific aspects of neuro-toxicity of mercury from amalgams, you are now trying to debate the amalgam intrigue and psychology. Sorry, I will leave that subject to dentists.
Mark Probert - 14 Oct 2006 16:00 GMT >>>>> "Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels >>>>> and Alzheimer's Disease" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If that's your best shot at the scientific references listed > then the scientific argument is settled. No, I thought, incorrectly it seems, that you knew that Boyd Haley has been totally discredited and his testimony was barred by a court since he is not an expert. I also thought, incorrectly again, that you knew that Boyd Haley has demonstrated that he bullshits about chemistry when he claims that thimerosal is 49.?% mercury, as if that is supposed to mean something.
Apparently, having
> nothing to say on the scientific aspects of neuro-toxicity of > mercury from amalgams, you are now trying to debate the > amalgam intrigue and psychology. Sorry, I will leave that > subject to dentists. It has been dealt with a hundred, if not a thousands times before. Do dredge it up from Google Groups archives.
Yawn.
nightlight - 14 Oct 2006 21:28 GMT > No, I thought, incorrectly it seems, that you knew that Boyd Haley has > been totally discredited and his testimony was barred by a court since > he is not an expert. That's a red herring.
I don't care about the intrigues and politicking from EPA/ADA staffers and lawyers. Haley is university professor of chemistry. If you're a rule maker for the FDA hearings who defines the term "expert-FDA-2003" for the purpose of testifying in the FDA 2003 hearings, it is trivial to make them exclude Haley, e.g. by requiring that "expert-FDA-2003" must be a medical doctor (in addition to any other conditions). That has nothing to do with the scientific validity of Haley's peer reviewed papers or the related experiments.
The scientific work is falsified only by other scientific work, not by bureaucratic intrigues and legalistic gimmicks in courts. You don't seem to differentiate these two very distinct realms and keep trying to steer debate into political/bureaucratic realm since your case has been lost for decades in the scientific realm.
Further, the list of references on mercury & Alzheimer's I gave you has no Haley's papers. So your remark is doubly pointless.
"Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels and Alzheimer's Disease" http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/alzheimers.htm
If you have anything of substance to say in the scientific realm, give it a shot.
> I also thought, incorrectly again, that you knew > that Boyd Haley has demonstrated that he bullshits about chemistry when > he claims that thimerosal is 49.?% mercury, as if that is supposed to > mean something. He is right. If you receive 50 mcg of thimerosal, you have then received ~25 mcg of mercury, which is the figure relevant when comparing mercury exposure to various safety limits. The safe exposure limits specify maximum _weight_ of Hg e.g. as 0.1 micrograms of Hg per kg of person's weight, and not as the count of Hg atoms.
Why don't you explain what is wrong with the 50% figure used to estimate mercury exposure from a given quantity of thimerosal?
>> Apparently, having >> nothing to say on the scientific aspects of neuro-toxicity of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It has been dealt with a hundred, if not a thousands times before. Do > dredge it up from Google Groups archives. The only paper debated and debunked, as found by google searches, is the first one on the list, the JADA paper (rejected multiple times by the reputable peer review journals and finally published in JADA, the non-peer-review trade journal of mercury-peddling ADA itself) which failed to find correlation between Alzheimer's and mercury levels in brains of patients (because it was designed not find it, among others by cherry picking the control group among subjects with high recent Hg exposure).
If you have links where any of the remaining peer reviewed studies showing elevated levels of Hg in the brains of Alzheimer's patients, have been refuted _scientifically_, you are welcome to provide such links. Otherwise we can consider the scientific debate concluded.
Mark Probert - 15 Oct 2006 15:46 GMT >> No, I thought, incorrectly it seems, that you knew that Boyd Haley has >> been totally discredited and his testimony was barred by a court since >> he is not an expert. > > That's a red herring. No, that is the truth.
> I don't care about the intrigues and politicking from EPA/ADA > staffers and lawyers. Haley is university professor of chemistry. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to do with the scientific validity of Haley's peer reviewed > papers or the related experiments. You should brush up a tad. Haley was not permitted to testify as he did not measure up under the Daubert rule. Learn it.
> The scientific work is falsified only by other scientific work, > not by bureaucratic intrigues and legalistic gimmicks in courts. > You don't seem to differentiate these two very distinct realms > and keep trying to steer debate into political/bureaucratic > realm since your case has been lost for decades in the > scientific realm. Your imagination is running wild. I did not mention the FDA, etc. It was the USDOJ that successfully opposed Haley being admitted as an expert under the Daubert rule.
> Further, the list of references on mercury & Alzheimer's I gave > you has no Haley's papers. So your remark is doubly pointless. > > "Published Studies on Elevated Brain Mercury Levels and > Alzheimer's Disease" > http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/alzheimers.htm Haley owns Altcorp.
> If you have anything of substance to say in the scientific > realm, give it a shot. See above.
>> I also thought, incorrectly again, that you knew that Boyd Haley has >> demonstrated that he bullshits about chemistry when he claims that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > micrograms of Hg per kg of person's weight, and not as the count > of Hg atoms. No, he is incorrect, since the percentage of the molecular weight of one atom of the molecule is irrelevant to its chemical properties, and, the mercury in thimerosal never becomes elemental mercury. Locate your high school chemistry notes and look it up.
> Why don't you explain what is wrong with the 50% figure used to > estimate mercury exposure from a given quantity of thimerosal? See above. Further, the toxicity of E-Hg is far different that that of MeHg or elemental Hg.
>>> Apparently, having >>> nothing to say on the scientific aspects of neuro-toxicity of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > to provide such links. Otherwise we can consider the scientific > debate concluded. nightlight - 16 Oct 2006 01:13 GMT >> That's a red herring. > > No, that is the truth. "Red herring" may be true or false. You seem to imagine that "misleading" is a synonim for "false":
------------------------------------------------------- Red herring: ... 2. something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue. ------------------------------------------------------- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=red+herring&x=0&y=0
>> I don't care about the intrigues and politicking from EPA/ADA >> staffers and lawyers. Haley is university professor of chemistry. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You should brush up a tad. Haley was not permitted to testify as he did > not measure up under the Daubert rule. Learn it. That has nothing to do with scientific research and findings by others (the list I gave you).
>> The scientific work is falsified only by other scientific work, >> not by bureaucratic intrigues and legalistic gimmicks in courts. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the USDOJ that successfully opposed Haley being admitted as an expert > under the Daubert rule. You obviously wish to debate the amalgam issue in any other realm, but the realm of science.
>> Further, the list of references on mercury & Alzheimer's I gave >> you has no Haley's papers. So your remark is doubly pointless. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Haley owns Altcorp. Again, you are diverting debate into the realm of analysis of motives of web hosts, not the realm of science. Who owns the web site that listed the references to published, peer reviewed scientific studies done by other scientists is entirely irrelevant in the realm of science. What is relevant are the studies themselves.
>> If you have anything of substance to say in the scientific >> realm, give it a shot. > > See above. There was no substance above. Just few of your lame attempts to debate intrigue, courts, gossip, psychology of web host motives,... and everything else but the scientific facts of mercury toxicity.
>> He is right. If you receive 50 mcg of thimerosal, you have then >> received ~25 mcg of mercury, which is the figure relevant when [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > mercury in thimerosal never becomes elemental mercury. Locate your high > school chemistry notes and look it up. You're answering the wrong question. The 50% figure refers to weight of mercury within given weight of thimerosal, which is what you need to know to compare the mercury exposure (organic, inorganic or elemental) to the corresponding (organic, inorganic, elemental) published safety limits. Both the amounts of thimerosal in vaccines and the safety limits are given in units of weight of Hg (such as micrograms). There is no unit or figure that specifies how many "chemical properties" are safe, as you seem to imagine. Hence, your answer is a complete non sequitur.
>> Why don't you explain what is wrong with the 50% figure used to >> estimate mercury exposure from a given quantity of thimerosal? > > See above. Further, the toxicity of E-Hg is far different that that of > MeHg or elemental Hg. There are different mercury safety limits for different mercury compounds. For example, there are limits (e.g. in micrograms of Hg per kg of person's weight) for Hg exposure from fish, which would be the exposure mostly from the organic mercury compounds.
Mark Probert - 16 Oct 2006 14:52 GMT >>> That's a red herring. >> >> No, that is the truth. > > "Red herring" may be true or false. You seem to imagine > that "misleading" is a synonim for "false": There was no misleading. I was pointing out that your so-called expert, Boyd Haley, is not accepted as an expert. Sorry you cannot handle that.
If I had mentioned that he is a despicable human being for calling ASD "Mad Child Disease", then you might have a gripe.
> ------------------------------------------------------- > Red herring: [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > per kg of person's weight) for Hg exposure from fish, which would be > the exposure mostly from the organic mercury compounds. Jan Drew - 17 Oct 2006 01:02 GMT "Mark Probert"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/A1974true/73819e3a.gif
trelbrierley@sympatico.ca - 17 Oct 2006 01:28 GMT I THis sums it up raather nicely: What makes antiamalgamists tick? James R. Berry, associate publisher of the American Dental Association's newspaper, has characterized them this way:
We know that some few of them are sincere, though confused by the Scientific Method. They read nonsense and accept it. Others have clearer vision and no excuses. They see plainly enough, and what they see is opportunity, which comes in green. When the universal quest for health collides with greed, the collision is loud and dangerous. People get hurt by those they expect, at minimum, to do no harm.
The anti-amalgamists-with their mercury meters . . . would be comical figures if they weren't so insidious. They prey on easy targets: the desperately ill grasping for hope against a dark alternative [19].
> >>> That's a red herring. > >> [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > per kg of person's weight) for Hg exposure from fish, which would be > > the exposure mostly from the organic mercury compounds. nightlight - 17 Oct 2006 01:33 GMT > What makes antiamalgamists tick? James R. Berry, associate publisher of > the American Dental Association's newspaper, has characterized them [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > figures if they weren't so insidious. They prey on easy targets: the > desperately ill grasping for hope against a dark alternative [19]. In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a defense mechanism in which one attributes ("projects") to others, one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Clinton - 17 Oct 2006 12:36 GMT > In psychology, psychological projection (or projection bias) is a > defense mechanism in which one attributes ("projects") to others, one's > own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts or/and emotions. Projection > reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted subconscious > impulses/desires without letting the ego recognize them. ... Good point. But how to get the message across to dentists that Hg does leave amalgam in large quantities. Perhaps you could employ the "commonsense" approach. Just as people refused to believe that the Earth revolved around the Sun, before the invention of the telescope, perhaps pro-amalgmists would be convinced if they rented a Jermone Hg meter.
By the way what is you interest in this issue? Concerned citizen or scientist, amalgam victim, random poster?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection Tony Bad - 17 Oct 2006 13:25 GMT > Earth revolved around the Sun, before the invention of the telescope, > perhaps pro-amalgmists would be convinced if they rented a Jermone Hg > meter. Using this kind of meter in any medical or dental care or diagnosis is absurd. It is the equivalent of using a truck scale to weigh a child and making a diagnosis based on such data. It is the wrong tool for the job...unless the job is a con job.
T
Clinton - 17 Oct 2006 15:26 GMT > > Earth revolved around the Sun, before the invention of the telescope, > > perhaps pro-amalgmists would be convinced if they rented a Jermone Hg [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > T The Jerome meter? I'm afraid not. The Jerome meter is designed to measure very low levels of Hg vapor up to industrial levels of exposure. It can easily measure the amount of Hg coming off an amalgam. It is the equivalent of an accurate chem lab balance and a "truck scale" in one.
Clinton - 18 Oct 2006 18:22 GMT > > Earth revolved around the Sun, before the invention of the telescope, > > perhaps pro-amalgmists would be convinced if they rented a Jermone Hg [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > making a diagnosis based on such data. It is the wrong tool for the > job...unless the job is a con job. Also, now that you've no doubt discoverd how accurate a jerome meter is, you c
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