Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2006
root-canal + crown follow-up - s.m.d.
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Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 01 Aug 2006 18:45 GMT Follow-up, apropos http://www.scimeddentistry.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13 :
My crown is in and I'm happy with the end result, though angry about the process the MDC DMO imposed. <gag>It's been like pulling teeth and has left a foul taste in my mouth.</gag> It's porcelain-over-metal. The root canal cost around $750, and I didn't need the crown lengthening. My cost for the crown was, including, I'm told, $150 for the gold itself, ~$350 ($650 less than what I was originally quoted); don't know what insurance's (add'l) cost was yet. There's a band of metal showing on the inside of the tooth, which surprised me but doesn't really bother me. I assumed it would be gold-colored gold; the metal is turned out to be silver-grey; I saw the underside before it went in!
What is a "normal" crown these days anyway? Are in-office CAD-CAM machines making all-porcelain crowns like amatus' common? (I used CAD-CAM machines in college; they rock.) My insurance doesn't cover all-porcelain crowns at all, but cover 5 other types of crowns.
Oh, and as for the NTI-TSS, they'd never heard of it, so I just made one myself - cut an inch off the end of a (clear boil-n-bite 'athletic works' brand) mouth guard and shaped it appropriately. I'm sure it's not quite as good as the real thing, but it's not bad, and an improvement over using the mouthguard the normal way, AND the $480 standard mouthguard I was originally advised to buy. Now I just need to wear it regularly. THANKS for the suggestion! I still have no idea how much an NTI would cost. What's the price range; what's typical?
-RBG (Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) Posting here because the replacement forum isn't run competentty.
Still wonder if anyone's gone on a 'dental vacation' to somewhere with care I can
> > afford out-of-network. Comments? Anyone know a good lawyer? Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 04 Aug 2006 23:55 GMT John Xxxxxx emailed me to avoid spam.:
>Would you mind sharing information on the home-brew NTI device? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >for the vacation end of [the] deal. >Thanks. in response to:
Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) wrote:
> ... > Oh, and as for the NTI-TSS, they'd never heard of it, so I just made [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > care I can > > > afford out-of-network. Comments? Anyone know a good lawyer? Sure; not much more I can add. I got the mouth guard on eBay; you can get them at sporting goods stores too. I snipped an inch off the end of the guard, and then followed the instructions for fitting it (time in hot & cold water), molding it to my 4 lower front teeth such that it would stick out so my upper teeth would hit it square when I bit down. It was much easier than the dental gluing I mentioned recently. I might make another one; I made it stick out more than necessary.
Since I posted, I heard from someone who went on a dental vacation to South Africa a few years ago and has been very happy with the results.
One negative I noticed with all-porcelain crowns (e.g. Lava, and presumably Cerec Cad/Cam too) is that they seem to be thicker than the kind I got, which I conclude means that they require more tooth be removed in order for them to fit.
Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 22 Aug 2006 19:14 GMT So, after all that:
1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew (even if the food isn't hot or cold). Months of agony (the insurance nightmare, not the actual dental work) and now this. Arrgh!!!
2)My insurance company determined that even after they reduced their prices, my dentist's office still overcharged me for the crown and instructed them to give me a $125 refund.
So I'm going in to have my dentist take a look tomorrow. I figure I should probably get further work done at, or at least a second opinion from, another office. I wonder what the problem is. Thoughts? I guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could it be?
C.J. Thomas - 22 Aug 2006 21:28 GMT Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root." It can either be an infection (yes, despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root where no human can reach to clean or in cases of leakage around the crown), a problem with the occlusion/bite, or a vertical root fracture. Does it ONLY really hurt when you chew (especially on release)? It is cases like this that make us all realize that the tooth really is a biological space, and not to be treated/looked at like a car engine. Good luck, and let me know what your dentist finds.
> 1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew (even if > the food isn't hot or cold). Months of agony (the insurance nightmare, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could > it be? Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 04 Sep 2006 21:55 GMT > Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root." It can either be an infection (yes, > despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root > where no human can reach to clean or in cases of leakage around the crown), > a problem with the occlusion/bite, or a vertical root fracture. Thanks.
> Does it > ONLY really hurt when you chew (especially on release)? It is cases like > this that make us all realize that the tooth really is a biological space, > and not to be treated/looked at like a car engine. Yup. In both cases, the laws of nature (e.g. physics) apply, but the car has far simpler parts, and less trained practitioners. So each is a different field and its current state-of-the-art indicates differing progress in terms of being reduced to a science. And it's not like you can go buy a car and have it last a lifetime, even with regular professional care.
The pain hasn't appeared since after I posted. Clearly, posting to s.m.d. eliminates tooth problems. (p=1, sample size=1) :)
>Good luck, and let me know what your dentist finds. He found nothing. Staff took an X-ray. He had me bite on a q-tip a few times.
> > 1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew ...
> > ...what else could it be? C.J. Thomas - 04 Sep 2006 22:50 GMT Glad you are feeling better.
"Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.)" <RoastedBillyGoates@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1157403311.735951.99680@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root." It can either be an infection >> (yes, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> > ...what else could it be? Jan - 05 Sep 2006 18:48 GMT > Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root." It can either be an infection (yes, > despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could > > it be? The fact you got a root canal.
http://www.altcorp.com/AffinityLaboratory/rcttreatment.htm
http://www.tldp.com/issue/157-8/157rootc.htm
Surprisingly it's composed of little tiny tubules, and those tubules are so small that if we took our smallest front tooth and stretched it out - stretched those tubules out end to end - it would stretch out for a distance of 3 miles. Now what happens is when you get a cavity in a tooth and the decay gets into the dentin of the tooth the bacteria that are involved in the decay process get into those tubules. I should tell you that initially those tubules carry a fluid and that that fluid carries nutriments and the nutriments in those dentin tubules keep the tooth alive and healthy. And those nutriments come from the nerve and the blood vessels that come into the root canal of the tooth. And so fundamentally what happens when you get a deep cavity and it exposes the nerve of the tooth, those bacteria get into all of those dentin tubules and they remain in there causing infection and eventually they can escape and that's a story in itself. They can escape in what's known as the lateral canals and there toxins can actually escape directly through the root surface into what's called the peridontal membrane or ligament. This is a hard fibrous tissue which holds the tooth in the bony socket, and when the infection gets into there it transfers easily into the bony socket and from there the bacteria and the bacterial toxins can get into the surrounding bone and the blood supply of that surrounding bone. And now this acts much like cancer cells, you know cancer cells metastasize and that means that they travel around the body in the bloodstream and they get to another tissue, gland or organ and they set up a new cancer. Well these bacteria from infected dentin tubules also travel around and metastasize in the same way and they can get into the various tissue. Those bacteria are kind of like people, you know, if they get to like Seattle or Reno or someplace they decide that's where they're going to have their home, well the bacteria traveling around the body, they may get to the liver, the kidneys or the heart or the eyes or some other tissue and they set up an infection in that area. So this is exactly what happens and why the degenerative diseases occur from these teeth.
http://www.curezone.com/dental/root_canal.html
MJ You're assuming that ALL root-filled teeth harbor bacteria and/or other infective agents?
GM Yes. No matter what material or technique is used - and this is just as true today - the root filling shrinks minutely, perhaps microscopically. Further and this is key - the bulk of solid appearing teeth, called the dentin, actually consists of miles of tiny tubules. Microscopic organisms lurking in the maze of tubules simply migrate into the interior of the tooth and set up housekeeping. A filled root seems to be a favorite spot to start a new colony.
One of the things that makes this difficult to understand is that large, relatively harmless bacteria common to the mouth, change and adapt to new conditions. They shrink in size to fit the cramped quarters and even learn how to exist (and thrive!) on very little food. Those that need oxygen mutate and become able to get along without it. In the process of adaptation these formerly friendly "normal" organisms become pathogenic (capable of producing disease) and more virulent (stronger) and they produce much more potent toxins.
Today's bacteriologists are confirming the discoveries of the Price team of bacteriologists. Both isolated in root canals the same strains of streptococcus, staphylococcus and spirochetes.
MJ Is everyone who has ever had a root canal filled made ill by it?
GM No. We believe now that every root canal filling does leak and bacteria do invade the structure. But the variable factor is the strength of the person's immune system. Some healthy people are able to control the germs that escape from their teeth into other areas of the body. We think this happens because their immune system lymphocytes (white blood cells) and other disease fighters aren't constantly compromised by other ailments. In other words, they are able to prevent those new colonies from taking hold in other tissues throughout the body. But over time, most people with root filled teeth do seem to develop some kinds of systemic symptoms they didn't have before.
MJ It's really difficult to grasp that bacteria are imbedded deep in the structure of seemingly-hard, solid looking teeth.
GM I know. Physicians and dentists have that same problem, too. You really have to visualize the tooth structure - all of those microscopic tubules running through the dentin. In a healthy tooth, those tubules transport a fluid that carries nourishment to the inside. For perspective, if the tubules of a front single-root tooth, were stretched out on the ground they'd stretch for three miles!
A root filled tooth no longer has any fluid circulating through it, but the maze of tubules remains. The anaerobic bacteria that live there seem remarkably safe from antibiotics. The bacteria can migrate out into surrounding tissue where they can "hitch hike" to other locations in the body via the bloodstream. The new location can be any organ or gland or tissue, and the new colony will be the next focus of infection in a body plagued by recurrent or chronic infections.
All of the "building up" done to try to enhance the patient's ability to fight infections - to strengthen their immune system - is only a holding action. Many patients won't be well until the source of infection - the root canal tooth - is removed.
MJ I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you tell us more about how Dr. Price could be sure that arthritis or other systemic conditions and illnesses really originated in the teeth - or in a single tooth?
GM Yes. Many investigations start with the researcher just being curious about something - and then being scientifically careful enough to discover an answer, and then prove it's so, many times over. Dr. Price's first case is very well documented. He removed an infected tooth from a woman who suffered from severe arthritis. As soon as he finished with the patient, he implanted the tooth beneath the skin of a healthy rabbit. Within 48 hours the rabbit was crippled with arthritis!
http://www.midnightcafe.com/alzh/endnotes.html
19. Dentin Tubules: The tooth structure is porous and dental tubules (hollow tubes) within a single tooth are approximately three miles in length. Eight bacteria fit side by side within one dentin tubule, which makes bacteria difficult to eradicate. It is not uncommon for cavitations to become reinfected. X-rays revealed I have six to eight reinfected cavitations.
20. Cavitations: Infected areas within the jawbone.
21. Bone necrosis: Disease caused in healthy cells due to direct contact with any agent (usually living organism) capable of producing infection.
http://www.carondevita.com/dentaldebate.html
Dentists do not generally consider this a problem as they are taught that the tooth is basically dead anyway except for that little bit of nerve in the root area. However, although it appears to be a solid, very hard substance, dentin in fact has many dentinal tubules. They are so tiny that a single tooth has as much as three miles of tubules.
God luck. In the future do your own research. A mainstream dentist will not tell you the truth.
Jan
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