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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2006

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root-canal + crown follow-up - s.m.d.

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Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 01 Aug 2006 18:45 GMT
Follow-up, apropos
http://www.scimeddentistry.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13 :

My crown is in and I'm happy with the end result, though angry about
the process the MDC DMO imposed. <gag>It's been like pulling teeth  and
has left a foul taste in my mouth.</gag>
It's porcelain-over-metal.
The root canal cost around $750, and I didn't need the crown
lengthening.
My cost for the crown was, including, I'm told, $150 for the gold
itself, ~$350 ($650 less than what I was originally quoted); don't know
what insurance's (add'l) cost was yet.
There's a band of metal showing on the inside of the tooth, which
surprised me but doesn't really bother me. I assumed it would be
gold-colored gold; the metal is turned out to be silver-grey; I saw the
underside before it went in!

What is a "normal" crown these days anyway?  Are in-office CAD-CAM
machines making all-porcelain crowns like amatus' common?  (I used
CAD-CAM machines in college; they rock.)  My insurance doesn't cover
all-porcelain crowns at all, but cover 5 other types of crowns.

Oh, and as for the NTI-TSS, they'd never heard of it, so I just made
one myself - cut an inch off the end of a (clear boil-n-bite 'athletic
works' brand) mouth guard and shaped it appropriately.  I'm sure it's
not quite as good as the real thing, but it's not bad, and an
improvement over using the mouthguard the normal way, AND the $480
standard mouthguard I was originally advised to buy.  Now I just need
to wear it regularly.  THANKS for the suggestion! I still have no idea
how much an NTI would cost. What's the price range; what's typical?

-RBG (Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed
straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) Posting here
because the replacement forum isn't run competentty.

Still wonder if anyone's gone on a 'dental vacation' to somewhere with
care I can
> > afford out-of-network. Comments? Anyone know a good lawyer?
Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 04 Aug 2006 23:55 GMT
John Xxxxxx emailed me to avoid spam.:

>Would you mind sharing information on the home-brew NTI device?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>for the vacation end of [the] deal.
>Thanks.

in response to:

Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is
directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) wrote:
> ...
> Oh, and as for the NTI-TSS, they'd never heard of it, so I just made
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> care I can
> > > afford out-of-network. Comments? Anyone know a good lawyer?

Sure; not much more I can add.  I got the mouth guard on eBay; you can
get them at sporting goods stores too.
I snipped an inch off the end of the guard, and then followed the
instructions for fitting it (time in hot & cold water), molding it to
my 4 lower front teeth such that it would stick out so my upper teeth
would hit it square when I bit down.  It was much easier than the
dental gluing I mentioned recently.  I might make another one; I made
it stick out more than necessary.

Since I posted, I heard from someone who went on a dental vacation to
South Africa a few years ago and has been very happy with the results.

One negative I noticed with all-porcelain crowns (e.g. Lava, and
presumably Cerec Cad/Cam too) is that they seem to be thicker than the
kind I got, which I conclude means that they require more tooth be
removed in order for them to fit.
Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 22 Aug 2006 19:14 GMT
So, after all that:

1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew (even if
the food isn't hot or cold).  Months of agony (the insurance nightmare,
not the actual dental work) and now this.  Arrgh!!!

2)My insurance company determined that even after they reduced their
prices, my dentist's office still overcharged me for the crown and
instructed them to give me a $125 refund.

So I'm going in to have my dentist take a look tomorrow. I figure I
should probably get further work done at, or at least a second opinion
from, another office.  I wonder what the problem is.  Thoughts?  I
guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could
it be?
C.J. Thomas - 22 Aug 2006 21:28 GMT
Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root."  It can either be an infection (yes,
despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root
where no human can reach to clean or in cases of leakage around the crown),
a problem with the occlusion/bite, or a vertical root fracture.  Does it
ONLY really hurt when you chew (especially on release)?  It is cases like
this that make us all realize that the tooth really is a biological space,
and not to be treated/looked at like a car engine.  Good luck, and let me
know what your dentist finds.

> 1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew (even if
> the food isn't hot or cold).  Months of agony (the insurance nightmare,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could
> it be?
Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.) - 04 Sep 2006 21:55 GMT
> Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root."  It can either be an infection (yes,
> despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root
> where no human can reach to clean or in cases of leakage around the crown),
> a problem with the occlusion/bite, or a vertical root fracture.
Thanks.
> Does it
> ONLY really hurt when you chew (especially on release)?  It is cases like
> this that make us all realize that the tooth really is a biological space,
> and not to be treated/looked at like a car engine.
Yup.  In both cases, the laws of nature (e.g. physics) apply, but the
car has far simpler parts, and less trained practitioners.  So each is
a different field and its current state-of-the-art indicates differing
progress in terms of being reduced to a science.  And it's not like you
can go buy a car and have it last a lifetime, even with regular
professional care.

The pain hasn't appeared since after I posted.  Clearly, posting to
s.m.d. eliminates tooth problems.  (p=1, sample size=1)  :)

>Good luck, and let me  know what your dentist finds.
He found nothing.  Staff took an X-ray. He had me bite on a q-tip a few
times.

> > 1)Since last week, the tooth has started hurting when I chew ...

> > ...what else could it be?
C.J. Thomas - 04 Sep 2006 22:50 GMT
Glad you are feeling better.

"Bill Gates(Email to me without 'this is not spam' in the subject is
directed straight to the trash unread by automatic filters.)"
<RoastedBillyGoates@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157403311.735951.99680@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root."  It can either be an infection
>> (yes,
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
>> > ...what else could it be?
Jan - 05 Sep 2006 18:48 GMT
> Hmmm....I doubt it is a "missed root."  It can either be an infection (yes,
> despite a root canal, sometimes infections can occur in areas of the root
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > guess it's the 'we missed one of the roots' problem - what else could
> > it be?

The fact you got a root canal.

http://www.altcorp.com/AffinityLaboratory/rcttreatment.htm

http://www.tldp.com/issue/157-8/157rootc.htm

Surprisingly it's composed of little tiny tubules, and those tubules
are so small that if we took our smallest front tooth and stretched it
out - stretched those tubules out end to end - it would stretch out for
a distance of 3 miles. Now what happens is when you get a cavity in a
tooth and the decay gets into the dentin of the tooth the bacteria that
are involved in the decay process get into those tubules. I should tell
you that initially those tubules carry a fluid and that that fluid
carries nutriments and the nutriments in those dentin tubules keep the
tooth alive and healthy. And those nutriments come from the nerve and
the blood vessels that come into the root canal of the tooth. And so
fundamentally what happens when you get a deep cavity and it exposes
the nerve of the tooth, those bacteria get into all of those dentin
tubules and they remain in there causing infection and eventually they
can escape and that's a story in itself. They can escape in what's
known as the lateral canals and there toxins can actually escape
directly through the root surface into what's called the peridontal
membrane or ligament. This is a hard fibrous tissue which holds the
tooth in the bony socket, and when the infection gets into there it
transfers easily into the bony socket and from there the bacteria and
the bacterial toxins can get into the surrounding bone and the blood
supply of that surrounding bone. And now this acts much like cancer
cells, you know cancer cells metastasize and that means that they
travel around the body in the bloodstream and they get to another
tissue, gland or organ and they set up a new cancer. Well these
bacteria from infected dentin tubules also travel around and
metastasize in the same way and they can get into the various tissue.
Those bacteria are kind of like people, you know, if they get to like
Seattle or Reno or someplace they decide that's where they're going to
have their home, well the bacteria traveling around the body, they may
get to the liver, the kidneys or the heart or the eyes or some other
tissue and they set up an infection in that area. So this is exactly
what happens and why the degenerative diseases occur from these teeth.

http://www.curezone.com/dental/root_canal.html

MJ You're assuming that ALL root-filled teeth harbor bacteria and/or
other infective agents?

GM Yes. No matter what material or technique is used - and this is just
as true today - the root filling shrinks minutely, perhaps
microscopically. Further and this is key - the bulk of solid appearing
teeth, called the dentin, actually consists of miles of tiny tubules.
Microscopic organisms lurking in the maze of tubules simply migrate
into the interior of the tooth and set up housekeeping. A filled root
seems to be a favorite spot to start a new colony.

One of the things that makes this difficult to understand is that
large, relatively harmless bacteria common to the mouth, change and
adapt to new conditions. They shrink in size to fit the cramped
quarters and even learn how to exist (and thrive!) on very little food.
Those that need oxygen mutate and become able to get along without it.
In the process of adaptation these formerly friendly "normal" organisms
become pathogenic (capable of producing disease) and more virulent
(stronger) and they produce much more potent toxins.

Today's bacteriologists are confirming the discoveries of the Price
team of bacteriologists. Both isolated in root canals the same strains
of streptococcus, staphylococcus and spirochetes.

MJ Is everyone who has ever had a root canal filled made ill by it?

GM No. We believe now that every root canal filling does leak and
bacteria do invade the structure. But the variable factor is the
strength of the person's immune system. Some healthy people are able to
control the germs that escape from their teeth into other areas of the
body. We think this happens because their immune system lymphocytes
(white blood cells) and other disease fighters aren't constantly
compromised by other ailments. In other words, they are able to prevent
those new colonies from taking hold in other tissues throughout the
body. But over time, most people with root filled teeth do seem to
develop some kinds of systemic symptoms they didn't have before.

MJ It's really difficult to grasp that bacteria are imbedded deep in
the structure of seemingly-hard, solid looking teeth.

GM I know. Physicians and dentists have that same problem, too. You
really have to visualize the tooth structure - all of those microscopic
tubules running through the dentin. In a healthy tooth, those tubules
transport a fluid that carries nourishment to the inside. For
perspective, if the tubules of a front single-root tooth, were
stretched out on the ground they'd stretch for three miles!

A root filled tooth no longer has any fluid circulating through it, but
the maze of tubules remains. The anaerobic bacteria that live there
seem remarkably safe from antibiotics. The bacteria can migrate out
into surrounding tissue where they can "hitch hike" to other locations
in the body via the bloodstream. The new location can be any organ or
gland or tissue, and the new colony will be the next focus of infection
in a body plagued by recurrent or chronic infections.

All of the "building up" done to try to enhance the patient's ability
to fight infections - to strengthen their immune system - is only a
holding action. Many patients won't be well until the source of
infection - the root canal tooth - is removed.

MJ I don't doubt what you're saying, but can you tell us more about how
Dr. Price could be sure that arthritis or other systemic conditions and
illnesses really originated in the teeth - or in a single tooth?

GM Yes. Many investigations start with the researcher just being
curious about something - and then being scientifically careful enough
to discover an answer, and then prove it's so, many times over. Dr.
Price's first case is very well documented. He removed an infected
tooth from a woman who suffered from severe arthritis. As soon as he
finished with the patient, he implanted the tooth beneath the skin of a
healthy rabbit. Within 48 hours the rabbit was crippled with arthritis!

http://www.midnightcafe.com/alzh/endnotes.html

19. Dentin Tubules: The tooth structure is porous and dental tubules
(hollow tubes)
   within a single tooth are approximately three miles in length.
Eight bacteria
   fit side by side within one dentin tubule, which makes bacteria
difficult to
   eradicate. It is not uncommon for cavitations to become reinfected.
X-rays
   revealed I have six to eight reinfected cavitations.

20. Cavitations: Infected areas within the jawbone.

21. Bone necrosis: Disease caused in healthy cells due to direct
contact with
   any agent (usually living organism) capable of producing infection.

http://www.carondevita.com/dentaldebate.html

Dentists do not generally consider this a problem as they are taught
that the
tooth is basically dead
anyway except for that little bit of nerve in the root area. However,
although
it appears to be a solid, very hard substance, dentin in fact has many
dentinal
tubules. They are so tiny that a single tooth has as much as three
miles of
tubules.

God luck.  In the future do your own research.  A mainstream dentist
will not
tell you the truth.

Jan
 
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