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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / March 2004Healozone treatment - should I have it?
Hello, I'm from the UK and I've been offered several doses of ozone treatment by my dentist, particularly to make it possible to have crown fitted and to secure a bridge that's being undermined by decay. I gather from internet sites that this treatment has been sweeping across the UK over the past year, but may not have been adequately researched. Does anyone have any views on this treatment, or is it pretty well unknown outside Britain and Ireland?  SignatureSimon From what I have been able to find, it is phony baloney. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Does anyone have any views on this treatment, or is it pretty well > unknown outside Britain and Ireland? healzone is new stuff.I think that each method is good if help to get treatment result.We discuss this topic couple moths ago.As I remember Joel was very sceptic of this method... I saw it several times..and till now I have not any opinion about this..In practic any from my collegues dont use this method -first of all price! This method is making treatment more expensive..I like trying new stuff but I think It will be the some result like with carisolve-gel.Presently is boom and after some time...We will see > From what I have been able to find, it is phony baloney. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > -- > > Simon Either phoney baloney or REAL baloney ... either way you slice it, its still baloney! >From what I have been able to find, it is phony baloney. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER and... *not* kosher bologna at that. >Either phoney baloney or REAL baloney ... either way you slice it, its >still baloney! > >>From what I have been able to find, it is phony baloney. -- Take out the G'RBAGE to reply wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com YUP, and it brings up the metaphor about Passover ....... (I presume you were thinking about that too!) HOLIDAY OF PASSOVER: Persons of the Jewish faith reflect over the extremes between "salt" and "leavened bread." Leavened bread contains yeast or alternatively contains some natural leavening which causes the bread to rise through bubbles. Salt is the opposite of that of course. The "bubbles" represent puffery and boastfulness (as in the internet bubble of the late '90s). So when members of the Jewish faith see "a bubble" they may be more vigilant and increasingly aware of it because of the Passover metaphor. ** Also see Tulipmania in Holland in 1623. This Biblical event (the passing over) most likely never occured according to archeology and the historical record. Metaphorically, it holds true! Now for the story on baloney ..... oh you already know what I am going to say ...... For kosher baloney, that is a special story ....... Joel >and... *not* kosher bologna at that. > >>Either phoney baloney or REAL baloney ... either way you slice it, its >>still baloney! >> >>>From what I have been able to find, it is phony baloney. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER >Hello, > >I'm from the UK and I've been offered several doses of ozone treatment >by my dentist, particularly to make it possible to have crown fitted and >to secure a bridge that's being undermined by decay. Generally ozone treatments are good for plants and microbes but do not affect dentistry one bit. Get your money back if the doc has not yet left town! > I gather from >internet sites that this treatment has been sweeping across the UK over >the past year, but may not have been adequately researched. > >Does anyone have any views on this treatment, or is it pretty well >unknown outside Britain and Ireland? SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Does anyone have any views on this treatment, or is it pretty well >unknown outside Britain and Ireland? REPLY: Its pretty unknown all places that scientific work is pursued. Does your doc wear one of the pointed hats with the stars sprinkled over it? SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER >>I'm from the UK and I've been offered several doses of ozone treatment >>by my dentist, particularly to make it possible to have crown fitted and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >your doc wear one of the pointed hats with the stars sprinkled over >it? No, but she wears braces. Ozone treatment was developed at Queen's University Belfast (over then years), so it's reasonable that it would only be widespread in Britain and Ireland. Queen's is a respectable institution, I believe. Do you have particular grounds for rejecting it, beyond mere implausibility? SignatureSimon Yep, a decayed tooth will never un-decay itself with or without ozone! Joel Especially in the year 2003~ !! >>>I'm from the UK and I've been offered several doses of ozone treatment >>>by my dentist, particularly to make it possible to have crown fitted and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >institution, I believe. Do you have particular grounds for rejecting it, >beyond mere implausibility? SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER It may help to know how this works and it has been applied in medicine for quite some time. Unless you believe that dental decay is a bacterial infection, this won't work in your head. A little cup attached to a hose is placed over the decaying tooth. Then a 10-40 second blast of ozone is delivered. This sterilizes the tooth, kills all of the bacteria. A remineralization fluid containing fluoride, calcium and phosphorus is applied to the demineralized area. If the tooth has frank decay Triage AKA Fugi Triage and Fugi VII is applied (GC America). There is no drilling, which is the traditional way of removing bacteria from the decayed portion of the tooth. The patient is generally asked to return and also asked to perform remineralization protocols including supplying F, C, P to the teeth. Nothing can live in the presence of ozone and if the cup doesn't fit over the tooth well the escaping ozone can be harmful to the people in the room. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Some people apply leeches to the decayed tooth which is very similar to how leeches are used in medcine to withdraw bad blood ......... >It may help to know how this works and it has been applied in medicine for >quite some time. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >~~~~~~~~~ >http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER I found a website: www.the-o-zone.cc Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Shirley,,,,,,, did you follow this link and look at the research presented there? Signature=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. ..Dr.Steve.@.Mancuso.d.d.s.com.. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Remove all but the last dot to email me > I found a website: > www.the-o-zone.cc [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp >Shirley,,,,,,, did you follow this link and look at the research presented >there? None if it opened for me. Just sharing the little I know. At yahoo, they have a users group and there is at least one dentist that isn't happy with the results he's getting. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Please check out the "research" listed on that site, then come back and tell my what you think, please. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >Shirley,,,,,,, did you follow this link and look at the research presented > >there? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp >Please check out the "research" listed on that site, then come back and >tell my what you think, please. Now this is what I'm interested in. As far as I know, the research hasn't been properly peer-reviewed, and it was sponsored by the N. American company that now produces the 'Healozone' equipment. As a layman I don't understand the research work presented on the site, and I would be interested in others opinions. SignatureSimon And half the articles were written by the guy who is featured on the web-site. He stands to make lots of money if you "fall for it" and go visit his surgery. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >Please check out the "research" listed on that site, then come back and > >tell my what you think, please. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As a layman I don't understand the research work presented on the site, > and I would be interested in others opinions. >And half the articles were written by the guy who is featured on the >web-site. He stands to make lots of money if you "fall for it" and go >visit his surgery. Only two were written by him, as far as I can make out. The rest were written by researchers from Queen's University, Belfast, The Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry, and St. Barts, London - all highly esteemed institutions. There are now dozens of surgeries using this treatment in the UK and I can nowhere find any coherent argument against it. Most of the dentists on this newsgroup seem to be from over the water and I'm pretty certain that fairly soon you'll be faced with the dilemma of using this treatment or carry on drilling, unless something happens to discredit it. http://www.the-o-zone.cc/research.htm SignatureSimon >> And half the articles were written by the guy who is featured on the >> web-site. He stands to make lots of money if you "fall for it" and go [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.the-o-zone.cc/research.htm This seems so outlandish, and the claims so fantastic, that if there's anything at all to it there will be major attention paid. Please note though, that it is no one's job to discredit this. It is the proponent's job to establish that it is of some clinical use. Steve Isn't trivalent oxygen going to release free radicals that can send a crowd screaming out the doors. Isn't it the free radicals that is doing the disinfection/sterilisation rather than the unstable O3? carabelli The ozone machine is set up to deliver and vacuume the ozone once the time limit is hit. There's a little hood or cup that is sealed over the lesion so that none leaks out. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp > The ozone machine is set up to deliver and vacuume the ozone once the time > limit is hit. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Obviously I can't know if this works or not. But how can the ozone actually reach the bacterial contamination of the dentinal tubules? I would certainly think that an antimicrobial mouthrinse such as chlorhexidene would penetrate the caries as well or better without all the equipment. I have heard claims for use of cg for control of root caries, but not lately. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com Plus bacteria are teensy .. they could bob and weave ....... >> The ozone machine is set up to deliver and vacuume the ozone once the time >> limit is hit. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Steve SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER > Obviously I can't know if this works or not. But how can the ozone actually > reach the bacterial contamination of the dentinal tubules? I would certainly think > that an antimicrobial mouthrinse such as chlorhexidene would penetrate the caries > as well or better without all the equipment. I have heard claims for use of cg for > control of root caries, but not lately. Indeed. If a "biofilm" is present, how does the ozone penetrate it? How many microns can it penetrate? What if there is food debris? Water? Pumice? What effect does it have on the odontoblastic extensions within the dentinal tubules? Does it effect the collagen matrix? Is smear layer a concern if rotary instruments are used to clean the surface? What effect (if any) does it have on bonding strength? Does it effect dentinal sensitivity? What is the limit on lesion size which can be treated? Width? Depth? Is this effective on dentin or just on enamel? What diagnostic criteria are used to establish whether or not a lesion qualifies for this treatment? Does the ozone have *ANY* therapeutic value? Does the post-ozone treatment have any efficacy? If so, what is the proof? Has *ANY OTHER* institution besides the one in Belfast, done any research on this therapy? Having managed a lot of decayed teeth over the previous 21 years (counting dental school), I have seen some lesions re-calcify, some lesions completely arrested in the progress of caries, and others which marched on relentlessly towards cavitation and pulpal damage. Those that re-calcified, did so in the mouth of the "Born-Again" dental patient. Meticulously clean mouth and diligent home care with high doses of fluoride. I cannot imagine a technique like this being of the least bit of good in a mouth which is subjected to a pack of cigarettes (or more) daily, and gets bathed in Pepsi or Mountain Dew for many hours a day. Help me be less of a skeptic. I was a big skeptic of the MonoDont when first presented with the concept, and now could not imagine NOT having it in my arsenal of dental therapies. I thought the NTI-TSS was useless when first presented with its parameters, and now make 1-4 of these a week. >> Obviously I can't know if this works or not. But how can the ozone >actually [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Indeed. If a "biofilm" is present, how does the ozone penetrate it? Turn up the dial on the nozzle ....... > How >many microns can it penetrate? What if there is food debris? Water? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >my arsenal of dental therapies. I thought the NTI-TSS was useless when >first presented with its parameters, and now make 1-4 of these a week. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER Born-A-Feld or Born-A-gain? >Those that re-calcified, did so in >the mouth of the "Born-Again" dental patient. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER > The ozone machine is set up to deliver and vacuume the ozone once the time > limit is hit. > There's a little hood or cup that is sealed over the lesion so that none leaks > out. That sounds like a "fool-proof" method <g> . Tell me again how the surface remains free of bacteria once you pull the cute little hood thingy off. You must work extremely fast ,,,,, bacteria are slow you know ,,, they do not have feet ........ >> The ozone machine is set up to deliver and vacuume the ozone once the time >> limit is hit. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >That sounds like a "fool-proof" method <g> . Tell me again how the surface >remains free of bacteria once you pull the cute little hood thingy off. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER "Steven Bornfeld" <marstev2nogarbageplease@earthlink.net> wrote in message . > This seems so outlandish, and the claims so fantastic, that if there's > anything at all to it there will be major attention paid. > Please note though, that it is no one's job to discredit this. It is > the proponent's job to establish that it is of some clinical use. EXACTLY ! ! ! ! Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- >"Steven Bornfeld" <marstev2nogarbageplease@earthlink.net> wrote in >message . [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >EXACTLY ! ! ! ! I entirely agree, but unless the US has stricter rules than the UK, it's going to establish itself over there with or without proper evidence as to its efficacy. SignatureSimon > >"Steven Bornfeld" <marstev2nogarbageplease@earthlink.net> wrote in > >message . [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Simon If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will have to pass muster with the FDA. This is a very expensive process, generally only possible by big pharma or in partnership with big pharma to bring it to market. No one is going to shell out the money to get it approved unless they are convinced there is a legitimate market. I doubt this could get the "orphan drug", off-label route. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com > If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will have > to pass muster with the FDA. This is a very expensive process, generally > only possible by big pharma or in partnership with big pharma to bring it to > market. No one is going to shell out the money to get it approved unless > they are convinced there is a legitimate market. I doubt this could get the > "orphan drug", off-label route. Unless the US government sees it as a cosmetic. In which case the amount of scrutiny becomes a lot less. Twenty years ago, dentifrice was seen as a cosmetic by the government here. I don't know if it still is categorized that way. It is and not only that ....... toothpaste is too! >> If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will >have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >cosmetic by the government here. I don't know if it still is categorized >that way. SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER > > If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will > have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cosmetic by the government here. I don't know if it still is categorized > that way. I noticed that ads for baldness remedies (minoxidil etc.) are carefully marketed as not intended to treat any disease. As I understand the ozone, it will be difficult to market without a therapeutic claim. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com >If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will have >to pass muster with the FDA. This is a very expensive process, generally [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Steve It is in FDA trial right now. According to a source on the users group, the tooth is free of bacteria for quite some time. And it works regardless of the remin solution. since it's a gas it easily penetrates the tubules, I don't know how it penetrates the biofilm. Glass ionomers recharge with fluoride, the material picks up fluoride in the environment. I just did a rather extensive study on GI and for every paper that discounted it, (published before 1990) there were two or three what stated it worked well. I guess the whole thing about this ozone treatment is that it should eliminate the drill in smaller early lesions. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp I do not see how this would get enough concentration to a lesion which has "popped" through the enamel into dentin. On a lesion that is still in enamel, we already know that better home care, nutrition and concentrated fluoride will arrest the lesion and sometimes reverse it completely. Why do we need Ozone to do the same thing? And explain to me how the fluoride ions penetrate the GI far enough to be of any consequence (as far as recharge is concerned). If the glass ionomer was that permeable, it would never work well. Fluoride release is only from the surface. I have never seen a study or heard a lecture which claimed that ions could flow through GI like the electrical charge flowing through a dry battery. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will have > >to pass muster with the FDA. This is a very expensive process, generally [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp >>If it is marketed as a pharmaceutical (which it clearly is) it will have >>to pass muster with the FDA. This is a very expensive process, generally [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It is in FDA trial right now. Is there a company in the approval process we can follow? Steve > According to a source on the users group, the tooth is free of bacteria for > quite some time. And it works regardless of the remin solution. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp >> It is in FDA trial right now. > > Is there a company in the approval process we can follow? KaVo is selling it in Europe and is going through the paces for FDA. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp >KaVo is selling it in Europe and is going through the paces for FDA. I sent them an Open Letter concerning their Java-junk on their web-site : http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_kavo.htm The case is much more important than you might guess. The KaVo Site cannot be read without Java-junk. So dentists are forced to switch that on. Doing so, they compromise the security of their patients and their patients' data... Regards, Aribert Deckers SignaturePOLICE - POLIZEI - POLITIE - POLICIA http://www.ariplex.com/ama/amapolis.htm > >EXACTLY ! ! ! ! > > I entirely agree, but unless the US has stricter rules than the UK, it's > going to establish itself over there with or without proper evidence as > to its efficacy. I trust you only meant that seeing the technique on this side of the pond was inevitable, not that we should accept it with or without evidence of efficacy. >> >EXACTLY ! ! ! ! >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >was inevitable, not that we should accept it with or without evidence of >efficacy. Of course. Ozone therapy would have enormous appeal in any affluent country if people believed in its efficacy. Anything that cuts down the drilling. SignatureSimon HI Simon, Thanks for replying. The site is suspicious on its research page. It appears to be a page designed to impress the lay-public only. The abstracts are only partially complete and most do NOT support the concept of this being a valid clinical procedure. Just the skeptic in me being observant. The technique may be the wave of the future, but it is not supported by this web page. Like I said to Shirley, I would love to read detailed support of the technique. Logically, I don't see how clearing the surface of bacteria for a few seconds will help very much. Not unless you find a way to clear the entire mouth of bacteria. Oops, just checked and the site does link to the entire article,,,,,,, no wait,,,,,,, the links just direct you to the entire abstract printed on yellow paper with a font too small to read. It is hard to tell, if those are the entire articles, then they are the shortest research papers I have ever seen. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >And half the articles were written by the guy who is featured on the > >web-site. He stands to make lots of money if you "fall for it" and go [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.the-o-zone.cc/research.htm >The site is suspicious on its research page. It appears to be a page >designed to impress the lay-public only. The abstracts are only partially [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >for a few seconds will help very much. Not unless you find a way to clear >the entire mouth of bacteria. Thank you for your interest - I would be interested to know if the below makes any sense at all to you: (from http://www.dentalozone.co.uk/treatment2.html ): "2. The "Treatment" phase Application of the Ozone Ozone will kill the bacteria causing the dental decay. Once the bacteria are killed, bacterial acids are no longer produced. This will stop any further damage. 3. The "Healing" Phase Remineralisation or re-hardening of the damaged tooth The Calcium from the saliva and re-mineralising toothpastes can soak back into the softened, damaged tooth. This process is made more efficient in the presence of Fluoride. The remineralised tooth does not have to be “drilled” away, and acts as a natural barrier. This process can take 4-6 weeks. 4. The "Repair" Phase Placement of a permanent restoration In small lesions this process is not necessary. In medium and large lesions the damaged tooth needs to be repaired. Traditional restorations can now be placed over the healed tooth to restore function. The nature and size of the restoration depends on the size of the cavity. In adults, very small “white” fillings which are placed with minimum effort and no pain are usually sufficient." SignatureSimon > Thank you for your interest - I would be interested to know if the below > makes any sense at all to you: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are killed, bacterial acids are no longer produced. This will stop any > further damage. You kill the bacteria on the tooth, then the tooth is bathed in saliva which is full of the same bacteria. What have you gained? > 3. The "Healing" Phase > Remineralisation or re-hardening of the damaged tooth [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have to be "drilled" away, and acts as a natural barrier. This > process can take 4-6 weeks. 4-6 weeks is not nearly enough time to re-mineralize a 1.2 mm deep area of incipient caries. It just won't happen that fast. > 4. The "Repair" Phase > Placement of a permanent restoration [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In adults, very small "white" fillings which are placed with minimum > effort and no pain are usually sufficient." So in small lesions you don't have to do this, and medium to big ones, you need a restoration. Then, what is the advantage? We do anamelplasty with bonded fillings and no anesthetic all the time. Still sounds like "Snake Oil" to me. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- When the hygienist is done disrupting bacterial colonies, there is not a self-respecting bacteria to be found anywhere ....... Or so I am told by dental hygienists ...... >You kill the bacteria on the tooth, then the tooth is bathed in saliva which >is full of the same bacteria. What have you gained? SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER >> In small lesions this process is not necessary. >> In medium and large lesions the damaged tooth needs to be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >So in small lesions you don't have to do this, and medium to big ones, >you need a restoration. Then, what is the advantage? I suppose the advantage is less drilling in general, and more often none at all. > We do anamelplasty with bonded fillings and no anesthetic all the >time. I hope this example is relevant - my dentist/snake oil dealer has told me that in order for a new crown (with a post on it) to be inserted into the root of a canine tooth, it will first need to be treated with ozone and then allowed to recalcify with the help of a mouthwash, toothpaste etc. After three months it should be possible to insert the crown. At the moment it's too soft and putting a post in is pointless. The alternative would be to have a bridge made. I'm guessing the process would be something like this: "With established decay and medium cavities: Traditional techniques apply. Anaesthetic will be required and the main portion of the decay should be removed. However, the tooth drilling is reduced and the risk of decay being left behind is eliminated. The tooth is sealed with a new material, FUJI 7. This material is extremely rich in Fluoride and will allow Calcium from the saliva to permeate through. The cavity or “wound” can now heal for 4-6 weeks. The process of re-hardening is allowed to complete. After 4-6 weeks, the Fuji 7 is removed, the tooth assessed for decay and hardening and a permanent restoration is placed on the “healed” tooth." [ http://www.dentalozone.co.uk/treatment6.html ] Except my dentist says three months. I don't know. Snake oil isn't poisonous anyway. SignatureSimon Hi Simon, > >> In small lesions this process is not necessary. > >> In medium and large lesions the damaged tooth needs to be repaired. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I suppose the advantage is less drilling in general, and more often none > at all. The source says you don't have to treat the small lesions, but the medium and large ones need restorations. The technique was supposed to remineralize the caries and make it disapper. That statement back-tracks all the way to saying that they do nothing different than before Ozone. > > We do anamelplasty with bonded fillings and no anesthetic all the > >time. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the moment it's too soft and putting a post in is pointless. The > alternative would be to have a bridge made. If they can recalcify a tooth which would otherwise be extracted, I will fly over to watch. I don't believe it, don't trust it, and am ready to laugh at it. If the tooth is too far gone to put a post into, nothing will remineralize it. Especially if it is exposed to salive the whole 3 months, and you are allowed to continue the habits which caused the caries in the first place. > I'm guessing the process would be something like this: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > permeate through. The cavity or "wound" can now heal for 4-6 weeks. > The process of re-hardening is allowed to complete. We have had glass ionomers come and go in dentistry for decades. They keep bragging about the fluoride release, but then find that the fluoride release is minor and limited. It only releases the fluoride for a hsort while. It runs out of fluoride to release after a while. (Not like amalgam which has an infinite supply of Hg <grin>). If the glass ionomer allows saliva to permeate through it, what stops the consumed acids and bacteria from permeating through? Free calciium ions being trasported through solid cement? That would be very good. I would love to see the chemistry and physics which allow that to happen. > After 4-6 weeks, the Fuji 7 is removed, the tooth assessed for decay and > hardening and a permanent restoration is placed on the "healed" tooth." I suppose.................. > [ http://www.dentalozone.co.uk/treatment6.html ] > > Except my dentist says three months. > > I don't know. Snake oil isn't poisonous anyway. Any chance this is just a ruse for the NHS to be able to put people off from getting care? Instead of time consuming restorative care, you spend a few minutes with the Ozone toy, and send the patient home. Tell the patient to schedule a visit in 3-4 months and hope the patient forgets all about it. I might be TOO skeptical there, and apologize if I over exaggerated. >Any chance this is just a ruse for the NHS to be able to put people off >from getting care? Instead of time consuming restorative care, you >spend a few minutes with the Ozone toy, and send the patient home. Tell >the patient to schedule a visit in 3-4 months and hope the patient >forgets all about it. I might be TOO skeptical there, and apologize if >I over exaggerated. Maybe a credible idea but no - ozone is only available privately and I'm sure it'll be a while before the NHS considers it. As far as I know there's no great public awareness of it yet. (The NHS isn't free for most people anyway - you can pay up to a ceiling of about $400 for each course of treatment.) Thank you for your input on this, it's very interesting. SignatureSimon > >Any chance this is just a ruse for the NHS to be able to put people off > >from getting care? Instead of time consuming restorative care, you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Simon We all know ozone is toxic, right? Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com It has to work! Hulda Clark sells an ozonator. http://www.drclark.net/info/devices.pdf If Hulda Clark uses something, I suspect the ability to believe in the product drops exponentially. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > It has to work! Hulda Clark sells an ozonator. > > http://www.drclark.net/info/devices.pdf >If Hulda Clark uses something, I suspect the ability to believe in the >product drops exponentially. This does decrease the credibility some. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Only "some"? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >If Hulda Clark uses something, I suspect the ability to believe in the > >product drops exponentially. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp What next? A Zapper for TMJ? >>If Hulda Clark uses something, I suspect the ability to believe in the >>product drops exponentially. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >~~~~~~~~~ >http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp SignatureJoel M. Eichen, . Philadelphia PA DISCLAIMER FOLLOWS: ********* Dental health-related material is provided for information purposes only and does not necessarily represent endorsement by or an official position of the SciMedDentistry gang or any other official agency either actual or fictitious or Steve Mancuso. Advice on the treatment or care of an individual patient should be obtained through consultation with a dentist who has examined that patient or is familiar with that patient's dental history. STANDARD DISCLAIMER 2733 Clinical reversal of root caries using ozone A. BAYSAN, Restorative Dent and Gerodontology, Queen's University Belfast, Northern Ireland and Bart's and the London QMSMD, London, United Kingdom, and E. LYNCH, Restorative Dent and Gerodontology, Queens University Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom - Objectives: This study assessed the safety and efficacy of a novel ozone delivery system1 with or without a root sealant2 on primary root carious lesions (PRCL). - Methods: Following Ethics approval, 80 patients with 214 PRCL were recruited. Group 1 only had ozone treatment, group 2 had neither ozone nor a root sealant application, whilst group 3 had ozone and sealant and group 4 only had sealant. At baseline and after 1 and 3 months, PRCL were clinically assessed. The Electrical Caries Monitor3 (ECM) and DIAGNOdent4 were employed to objectively quantify PRCL and sealants. Modified USPHS criteria were performed to assess clinical performance of the sealants. - Results: After 3 months, 78 patients completed. There were no observed adverse events. 30.9% of PRCL reversed from severity index 2 to 0 (i.e., hard) in the ozone group, whilst none of the lesions reversed in the control group (p < 0.001) and 34% of lesions reversed from severity index 2 to 1 in the ozone group compared to only 7.5% in the control group (p < 0.001). Modified USPHS criteria revealed 61.5% of intact sealants in the ozone and sealant group, whilst 38.5% of intact sealants in the sealant only group (p < 0.05). The ECM and DIAGNOdent readings showed improvements in the ozone group compared to the control group (p < 0.001). The ozone and sealant group also had greater improvements in the ECM and DIAGNOdent values compared to the sealant only group (p < 0.05). - Conclusions: This treatment regime using ozone alone may be considered to be an effective alternative to conventional "drilling and filling". The sealant showed reduced retention at 3 months but was retained better on ozone treated PRCL. 1HealOzone unit, CurOzone USA, 2Seal and Protect, Dentsply, Germany, 3LODE Diagnostics, Netherlands, 4Kavo, Germany Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp 1173 Clinical Indices changes in Ozone Treatment of Pit and Fissure Caries L. ABU-NABA'A, H. AL SHORMAN, and E. LYNCH, Queen's University, Belfast, United Kingdom Objectives:As Ozone continues to be investigated as a pharmaceutical treatment for pit and fissure carious lesions (PFCLs) in a longitudinal controlled clinical trial, this study aimed to quantify changes in clinical indices associated with this treatment. Methods: 34 non-cavitated occlusal pit and fissure carious lesions in 8 patients were enrolled in this part of this study. After cleaning using the air-abrasive system; Prophyflex 2® (KaVo, Germany), the following were recorded from the lesions: clinical classification (Ekstrand, 1998), the DIAGNOdent® (D) (KaVo, Germany) readings, Texture index (hard, leathery, soft), Colour (normal, yellow, light brown, grey, dark brown, black), frosted enamel (mm), Stained enamel (mm) and Perceived treatment need index (Requiring no intervention, Requiring a pharmaceutical approach but not drilling and filling (D&F) and not preventive resin restoration (PRR), Possibly requiring D&F or PRR and Definitely requiring D&F). 17 lesions were treated with Ozone (HealOzone unit, CurOzone, USA) for 40 seconds and the other 17 were reserved as controls. After 1 & 3 months, the procedure was repeated. The change in the clinical indices values was tested by one sample t test of Loge recall/ base values. Results: The lesions in the treatment group showed a significant reduction in texture, frosted enamel and perceived treatment needs indices at 1 and 3 months (p<0.05). The trend of the lesions getting darker at 1 month became significant at 3 months (p<0.05) and there was no significant change in the stained enamel length or clinical severity index (p>0.05). None of the above changes were significant in the control group in both recalls(p>0.05). Conclusion: Treating Pits and Fissure Carious Lesions with Ozone significantly produced clinical changes at one and three months that can be detected in a regular dental setting. (Supported by CurOzone, USA). Seq #148 - Caries Clinical and Restorative Studies 1:45 PM-3:45 PM, Friday, 14 March 2003 Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center Room 208 Back to the Cariology Research Program Back to the 32nd Annual Meeting and Exhibition of the AADR (March 12-15, 2003) Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Dear Shirley J... Gutkowski, Have you read the study? Can you describe how it was done? Who financed the study? Do the authors have any affiliations with outside commercial products? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > 1173 Clinical Indices changes in Ozone Treatment of Pit and Fissure Caries > L. ABU-NABA'A, H. AL SHORMAN, and E. LYNCH, Queen's University, Belfast, United [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fissure carious lesions in 8 patients were enrolled in this part of this study. > After cleaning using the air-abrasive system; Prophyflex 2? (KaVo, Germany), > the following were recorded from the lesions: clinical classification > (Ekstrand, 1998), the DIAGNOdent? (D) (KaVo, Germany) readings, Texture index > (hard, leathery, soft), Colour (normal, yellow, light brown, grey, dark brown, > black), frosted enamel (mm), Stained enamel (mm) and Perceived treatment need [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp How was the study conducted? What was the criteria for lesion evaluation? Who did the evaluation? What was the size of the lesions? What was the depth of the lesions? How many different examiners? Why was 3 months chosen as the time frame? Why did two patients drop out of the study? etc. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > 2733 Clinical reversal of root caries using ozone > A. BAYSAN, Restorative Dent and Gerodontology, Queen's University Belfast, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp 0683 Ozone Treatment of Occlusal Caries in Primary Teeth: Immediate Effects and Correlation of Diagnostic Methods M. MARASHDEH, O. ABU-SALEM, and E. LYNCH, Queen's University, Belfast, United Kingdom Ozone (O3) has been clinically proven to reverse fissure caries and root caries. It is now being further investigated as a pharmaceutical treatment for occlusal caries in permanent and primary teeth. Objectives: To correlate both DIAGNOdent and Electrical Caries Monitor (ECM) standard scale readings with a clinical classification of occlusal caries in primary molars, and to study the immediate effect of ozone application on both readings. Methods: 50 non-cavitated carious lesions in 17 patients were recruited. All teeth were cleaned by an air-abrasive system, Prophyflex 2® (KaVo, Germany). The DIAGNOdent ® (D)(KaVo, Germany), ECM (LODE BV, Netherlands) standard scale readings and clinical classification (Ekstrand, 1998) were then recorded. Subsequently, after randomisation, half of the lesions were treated with Ozone using a silicone-sealed cup via a hand piece (HealOzone unit, CurOzone USA) for 10 seconds each, whereas, the other half was reserved as a control group. The readings were repeated after Ozone application. Results: Using a paired samples T-test; ECM readings were not altered immediately by the Ozone treatment (p>0.05). However, the DIAGNOdent readings were significantly reduced after Ozone treatment (t = 2.408, p< 0.05). Moreover, ECM and DIAGNOdent readings were significantly correlated with the clinical classification (p< 0.05, p< 0.01 respectively). Conclusions: The significant correlation between the clinical classification and both the ECM and DIAGNOdent readings, proves the reliability of the clinical classification used in this study. As expected, ECM readings were not changed since remineralisation is unlikely to occur immediately; while DIAGNOdent readings were reduced Seq #91 - Antibacterials 3:45 PM-5:00 PM, Thursday, 13 March 2003 Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center Exhibit Hall C Back to the Cariology Research Program Back to the 32nd Annual Meeting and Exhibition of the AADR (March 12-15, 2003) Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp 0680 Remineralization of Occlusal Pit and Fissure Caries After Using Ozone R. MORRISON, Harbour Dental Practice, Donaghadee, United Kingdom, and E. LYNCH, Queen's University, Belfast, United Kingdom Ozone has been shown to clinically reverse primary root carious lesions and early occlusal pit and fissure caries. This study aimed to assess the use of Ozone to manage pit and fissure caries in a general dental practice. Objectives: This study assessed the effect of a novel ozone delivery system (HealOzone unit, CurOzone USA) on primary pit and fissure carious lesions over a 13-week period in a general dental practice. Methods: 148 subjects were randomly allocated to one of 2 groups. 108 patients were entered with 186 test carious lesions whilst another 40 subjects were entered with 40 control lesions, which did not receive any treatment. Each carious lesion had been deemed to require conventional drilling and filling. Ozone was applied to each test lesion for 40 seconds. After 13 weeks, patients were recalled and the lesions were clinically re-assessed for severity. Results: 52 test subjects with 87 test lesions have attended the recall visit. There were no observed adverse events. 70 of the ozone-treated primary pit and fissure carious lesions had clinically reversed based on the clinical measurement of lesion severity whilst the other 16 lesions remained stable and none became worse (P<0.05). The control lesions did not significantly change clinically. Conclusions: This treatment regime using ozone may be considered to be an effective alternative to conventional "drilling and filling" for primary occlusal fissure carious lesions in general dental practice. Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Here's another abstract. I don't suppose you'll like these as they are supported by a couple of companies with vested interest. This is new science, and we're going to hear more as time marches on. 0675 Ozone Treatment of Pit and Fissure Caries: 6-month Results L. ABU-NABA'A1, H. AL SHORMAN1, M. STEVENSON2, and E. LYNCH1, 1 Queen's University, Belfast, United Kingdom, 2 Queen's university Belfast, United Kingdom Ozone continues to be investigated as a pharmaceutical treatment for pit and fissure carious lesions (PFCLs) in a longitudinal controlled clinical trial. Aim: To continue to monitor lesions' remineralisation, arrest or progression after Ozone treatment. Methods: 240 permanent teeth with non-cavitated occlusal PFCLs in 78 patients were enrolled. Teeth were cleaned using air-abrasive system (Prophyflex 2®, KaVo, Germany) and the following were recorded: clinical severity (Ekstrand, 1998), DIAGNOdent® (KaVo, Germany) and ECM (LODE BV, Netherlands) standard scale baseline (site-specific) readings. After randomisation, 120 lesions were treated with Ozone for 10 seconds (HealOzone unit, CurOzone USA) and the other 120 were reserved as controls. The procedure was repeated at 1, 3 and 6 months. The changes in the ECM values were tested by one sample t-test of loge m/base and 2-way analysis for block and treatment effects. The effect of the following co-variables was tested: tooth location, lesion location (mesial, central or distal) and type (pit or fissure), base line DIAGNOdent, and clinical severity classification. Results: The ECM values in the treatment group were significantly higher than the base line values (p<0.01), while it was not for the control group (p>0.05). The mean ECM change for the treatment group was 1.5 times the baseline value and this was significantly higher (p<0.05) than that for the control group (0.9 times the baseline). On the other hand, there were no significant patient treatment interactions and none of the tested factors had a significant effect. Conclusion: Ozone treatment of PFCLs showed significant remineralisation at 6 months. All Ozone treated teeth responded similarly regardless of the tooth’s or lesion’s location, type and severity. (Supported by CurOzone, USA). Seq #91 - Antibacterials 3:45 PM-5:00 PM, Thursday, 13 March 2003 Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center Exhibit Hall C Back to the Cariology Research Program Back to the 32nd Annual Meeting and Exhibition of the AADR (March 12-15, 2003) Shirley Gutkowski, RDH, BSDH "Everbody wants to save the earth - nobody wants to help Mom to do the dishes." - P. J. O'Rourke ~~~~~~~~~ http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp Come on Shirley, you are starting to sound like the Hg zealots. Supporting opinions on abstracts which all come from one web site. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... Question of the month................ will JOEL get help? .. Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > Here's another abstract. I don't suppose you'll like these as they are > supported by a couple of companies with vested interest. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > system (Prophyflex 2?, KaVo, Germany) and the following were recorded: > clinical severity (Ekstrand, 1998), DIAGNOdent? (KaVo, Germany) and ECM (LODE > BV, Netherlands) standard scale baseline (site-specific) readings. After > randomisation, 120 lesions were treated with Ozone for 10 seconds (HealOzone [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Conclusion: Ozone treatment of PFCLs showed significant remineralisation at 6 > months. All Ozone treated teeth responded similarly regardless of the tooth's > or lesion's location, type and severity. (Supported by CurOzone, USA). > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.dentistry.com/poralhealth_02.asp $400 for a course of treatment on the NHS,,,,, or for a course of treatment with ozone? ? ? ? ? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan, USA DrSteve Q Mancusodds.com {change the center letter to "at" (and drop two spaces) for email} .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... Please ignore j..d... ~~~~``````````#####---- > >Any chance this is just a ruse for the NHS to be able to put people off > >from getting care? Instead of time consuming restorative care, you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thank you for your input on this, it's very interesting. >$400 for a course of treatment on the NHS,,,,, or for a course of >treatment with ozone? ? ? ? ? The ceiling for any course of treatment on the NHS. Actually I checked and it's now 360 GBP which is about $540. But that would be a huge course. Basically you pay 80% of cost unless you're young, old or very poor. SignatureSimon Do I understand correctly that you pay 80% ( at a discounted rate) up to a maximum of 360 GBP, for what ever needs you have at that time? Even if you need multiple teeth treated with RCT and crowns? Quality must be abysmal. Signature=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. ..Dr.Steve.@.Mancuso.d.d.s.com.. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Remove all but the last dot to email me > >$400 for a course of treatment on the NHS,,,,, or for a course of > >treatment with ozone? ? ? ? ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > course. > Basically you pay 80% of cost unless you're young, old or very poor. >Do I understand correctly that you pay 80% ( at a discounted rate) up >to a maximum of 360 GBP, for what ever needs you have at that time? >Even if you need multiple teeth treated with RCT and crowns? Quality >must be abysmal. I thing we have a misunderstanding. Dentists are fully remunerated by the NHS for the work they do, regardless of what the patient pays (which is limited to £360). The patient gets all the work done that they need. I had a massive and complicated course of treatment - crowns, bridges etc. - about twelve years ago and the dentist did a magnificent job. But then he went private full time, which is a common problem and makes it harder to find a good NHS dentist. Most do a mixture of private and NHS work, but the proportion of private work is going up. Quality varies - some are trying to rip you off, some are poor dentists - you have to ask around, find the good ones, same as anywhere. SignatureSimon Doesn't the dentist have to discount his/her fees with NHS? Do you pay 80% of the full fee up to a maximum of 360 GBP? Signature=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. ..Dr.Steve.@.Mancuso.d.d.s.com.. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Remove all but the last dot to email me > >Do I understand correctly that you pay 80% ( at a discounted rate) up > >to a maximum of 360 GBP, for what ever needs you have at that time? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > some are trying to rip you off, some are poor dentists - you have to ask > around, find the good ones, same as anywhere. >Doesn't the dentist have to discount his/her fees with NHS? The fees are fixed by the NHS. If a dentist thinks they're really good they can go private and charge whatever they want. Then I, as a patient, have a choice of paying more for private care or finding a reliable NHS dentist, which can be difficult in some areas at the moment. Some reform is needed to stop the bleeding of dentists into private work however. >Do you pay 80% of the full fee up to a maximum of 360 GBP? Yes. The State pays the other 20%. SignatureSimon Sounds like a great deal for the "State", and a lousy one for everyone else. Signature=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. ..Dr.Steve.@.Mancuso.d.d.s.com.. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Remove all but the last dot to email me > >Doesn't the dentist have to discount his/her fees with NHS? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yes. The State pays the other 20%. >Sounds like a great deal for the "State", and a lousy one for everyone >else. Um, the 'State' or whateveryouwanttocallit pays all the dental fees for children, the aged, pregnant women and people on income support. It pays 20% of the rest. How do you mean this is a great deal for the 'State'? I'm sure the government would like to privatise dentistry and the rest of the health service, and indeed they are, slowly and by stealth. SignatureSimon I meant it was a great deal for the "State" in comparison to what it would cost to provide a more reasonable level of service. If the "State" only has to pay 20% of the first 360 GBP, is about 72 GBP total risk per person to the government. I imagine a lot of the wording describes how the patient will get 360 GBP of service, so the patient gets the impression of getting much higher level of service. For the poor, does the system still max out at 360 GBP? Signature=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. ..Dr.Steve.@.Mancuso.d.d.s.com.. ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~` Remove all but the last dot to email me > >Sounds like a great deal for the "State", and a lousy one for everyone > >else. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'm sure the government would like to privatise dentistry and the rest > of the health service, and indeed they are, slowly and by stealth. Ahahhhhh, driven by OPM ~ Other People's Money! >>Any chance this is just a ruse for the NHS to be able to put people off >>from getting care? Instead of time consuming restorative care, you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Thank you for your input on this, it's very interesting. |
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