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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / July 2006Why they become Dentists
The story of Clara Harris, DDS is unrelated, but I've sourced it to illustrate my point about why dentists charge so much. You'll recall, Harris was the whacko lady dentist who killed her husband dentist for cheating. She caught in in Hotel parking lot with his mistress and ran him over with her Mercedes. Very sad, and it makes you wish you were there to push the guy out of the way, but the reason I mention it is because of the follow-up story about her the couple's assets -- 7 million dollars. He was 44, she 45 at the time of the homicide. Let's figure they were dentists for 20 years. Not bad. They may have been millionaires as early as 10 years after going into business. Certainly, by the time they were 40. But if they only had 3.5 million at age 40, assuming the assets were generating a moderate 10% interest per year, that's an appreciation of $350,000 per year, more than enough to live like a king and queen.. And that, folks, is the naked reality of why dentists charge so much -- GREED!. ricland >The story of Clara Harris, DDS is unrelated, but I've sourced it to >illustrate my point about why dentists charge so much. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >ricland What life choices of yours kept you from having the same success? Were you just too damn lazy to earn it? oops hit the wrong send button, sorry. Out of practice with usenet. Anyway........ Obviously she became wealthy by following the axiom "if you don't succeed at first try, try again". And it seems she applied that to things other than dentistry. carabelli > oops hit the wrong send button, sorry. Out of practice with usenet. > Anyway........ [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > carabelli I know at my interview at NYU they asked me why I wanted to go into dentistry--I told them I was good with my hands and I wanted to save all mankind. Somehow I was accepted anyway. Steve  SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> oops hit the wrong send button, sorry. Out of practice with usenet. >> Anyway........ [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve I told them my goal in life was to accumulate a net worth of $7 mil and then have my wife drive over me three times. Got a long ways to go before she drives over me. carabelli >>>oops hit the wrong send button, sorry. Out of practice with usenet. >>>Anyway........ [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > carabelli I think I set you up pretty well for that one! (I expected you to knock it out of the park, of course!) Best, Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>>>oops hit the wrong send button, sorry. Out of practice with usenet. >>>>Anyway........ [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Best, > Steve Always a gentleman but an even better straight man....... carabelli > What life choices of yours kept you from having the same success? Were > you just too damn lazy to earn it? Too lazy. But why do you ask? ricland > > What life choices of yours kept you from having the same success? Were > > you just too damn lazy to earn it? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ricland _________________________________- Dr. King asks because you seem to make a big deal of the fact that other people are apparently better off than you are. That doesn't do a lot of good, because no matter how well off you are, there is somebody who is better off. Even Bill Gates, the richest guy in the world, can't live in the White House. If you had applied yourself to being the best in your field for ten years, you'd probably be financially better off. Perhaps then you wouldn't be showing so much envy of other people. And considering the statistics, millionaires are a dime a dozen, and the vast, vast majority of them are not dentists. Here in southern California the average house goes for about $600,000. That means the better than average house might go for a million. In other words, if you own your house (and millions of ordinary homeowners do), then you're almost a millionaire already. And if you have worked for ten or twenty years and have made the ordinary, normal contributions to your retirement plan, your assets are well OVER a million. That's for the ordinary homeowner, the ordinary working guy in an average job. So what's the big deal about being a millionaire? Half the people in my town fit that description, although they probably don't think of themselves as wealthy, or greedy, either. Will you next rant about the baseball, football, and basketball players who make more money in ONE month than I can make in my entire life as a working doctor of dental surgery? I won't hold my breath. - dentaldoc > > > What life choices of yours kept you from having the same success? Were > > > you just too damn lazy to earn it? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - dentaldoc You appear to be taking my comments personally, sir. Pistols at dawn ...? ricland > > > > What life choices of yours kept you from having the same success? Were > > > > you just too damn lazy to earn it? [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > ricland ____________________________ No pistols necessary; truth will suffice. Seeing how the figures you wrote for the average cost of crowns in the USA and in Britain are both wrong, I'm sorry if that leaves you disarmed. - dentaldoc > The story of Clara Harris, DDS is unrelated, but I've sourced it to > illustrate my point about why dentists charge so much. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > generating a moderate 10% interest per year, that's an appreciation of > $350,000 per year, more than enough to live like a king and queen.. You forgot inflation. How much has the price of gas and housing gone up in just the last few years? As for Clara she missed her best defense. volitale outbursts and a fit of sudden uncharacteristic rage that would be inexplicable even for a hardened crimminal ....now wasn't she constantly exposed to a certain chemical vapor known to cause just that for 20 years? > > The story of Clara Harris, DDS is unrelated, but I've sourced it to > > illustrate my point about why dentists charge so much. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > hardened crimminal ....now wasn't she constantly exposed to a certain > chemical vapor known to cause just that for 20 years? They owned sex dental offices. She had enough evidence on him to take everything but his school ring in the divorce. In fact, when he saw her bearing down on him in the Mercedes, that's probably why he didn't get out the way .. or get up after she ran over him the first time. ricland "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote .......... They owned sex dental offices......... Well, that certainly explains the $7,000,000. Most of my colleagues are not that greedy. Probably only 30% or so have that kind of office - payoffs are killing them - almost not worth it. Did they practice in Nevada? carabelli > "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote .......... They owned sex dental > offices......... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > carabelli The point being, carabelli, having assets of a million dollars is a benchmark for all dentists. Most reach this benchmark within 20 years of opening their practice. That places you in the top one percentile of working Americans. But the problem with this is that you reach this category by overcharging -- not dint of your business acumen. Are we clear now? ricland you have to remember these two people were not just dentists, they were specialists,, which if you combo both of their salieries per year this would totally make sence. but I also read that the 7 mil was the total a.ses not including the morgage payments, etc which are being made. here are some thoughts for you that I heard Average crowded US city like LA where are way too many dentists. - Average salery - 60-70k/year Average non crowded city like midwest average salery is like 100k/ year specialist range from 100k to 200k year any thoughs anybody? > "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote .......... They owned sex dental > offices......... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > carabelli > you have to remember these two people were not just dentists, they were > specialists,, which if you combo both of their salieries per year this [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > any thoughs anybody? "Average salery - 60-70k/year" In LA? You've got to be kidding. The pizza delivery guy makes more than that... in tips. ricland > > "rick" <riclanders@gmail.com> wrote .......... They owned sex dental > > offices......... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > carabelli > Average crowded US city like LA where are way too many dentists. - > Average salery - 60-70k/year [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > any thoughs anybody? I like Rick's numbers better. Based on his comments I just put a down payment on a Lear jet. I am figuring I'll be a multi-millionaire any day now. If your numbers are right, I better call the jet store back! damn! T > > Average crowded US city like LA where are way too many dentists. - > > Average salery - 60-70k/year [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > T Next they'll be asking Angelina Jolie to hold a benefit for them because their food stamps were late this month. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for George to tell us -- in detail! -- all the expenses that go into a $1000 crown. How about it, George? ricland > Meanwhile, I'm still > waiting for George to tell us -- in detail! -- all the expenses that go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ricland The human body is worth about $5 when broken down to its basic elements. Would you sell me a human, perhaps yourself, for $5? I might only offer $4 for you! (just kidding) There is a lot that gets figured into the cost of anything. My best estimate is that about $1000 of expenses go into the $1000 crown. What you want to know is how much of that $1000 expense is profit...and that varies...making your question one without a definitive answer. T > Next they'll be asking Angelina Jolie to hold a benefit for them > because their food stamps were late this month. Meanwhile, I'm still > waiting for George to tell us -- in detail! -- all the expenses that go > into a $1000 crown. > > How about it, George? It's not going to happen Rick. I already gave you a suggestion: check dentists' gross and net income yourself. You'll find on average $500,000 gross, but only $120,000 net. Which means expenses are 75% of the cost. Unless you are mathematically challenged. > > Next they'll be asking Angelina Jolie to hold a benefit for them > > because their food stamps were late this month. Meanwhile, I'm still [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > $500,000 gross, but only $120,000 net. Which means expenses are 75% of > the cost. Unless you are mathematically challenged. Yeah, and how much "off the books," George? ricland > > > Next they'll be asking Angelina Jolie to hold a benefit for them > > > because their food stamps were late this month. Meanwhile, I'm still [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yeah, and how much "off the books," George? Oh, so now we're not only greedy but we're also evading tax? Get a life Rick. There are much better things to do than harassing a group of people you don't know on the net. > They owned sex dental offices. What is a sex dental office? Is that even legal? - dentaldoc > The story of Clara Harris, DDS is unrelated, but I've sourced it to > illustrate my point about why dentists charge so much. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the way, but the reason I mention it is because of the follow-up story > about her the couple's assets -- 7 million dollars. okay , i can't stand it...how many dentists here are millionares? I did hear that the starting salary for cosmetic surgeons in some areas is $500,000 I would venture to say that not many at all are millionares! (all of my professional career, I have never seen my friends make money like what you say on their practices, they make money on other deals, such as realistae, or other investments. cosmetic surgeons are not dentists, (perhaps you are refering or oral surgeons) ,but the starting salery for an associate dentist where I am in LA is about 350-to 450 a day, which after taxes is like 50-70k a year. > okay , i can't stand it...how many dentists here are millionares? I did > hear > that the starting salary for cosmetic surgeons in some areas is $500,000 > I would venture to say that not many at all are millionares! (all of > my professional career, I have never seen my friends make money like > what you say on their practices Are you talking to me?. I never made the claim, that was Rick. It is true that inflation is a factor and 1 million is not what it used to be. As Bill pointed out the average house in some areas now costs half a million. , they make money on other deals, such > as realistae, or other investments. > > cosmetic surgeons are not dentists, (perhaps you are refering or oral > surgeons) I mean rather, plastic surgeons, although their malpractice premiums are probably higher. ,but the starting salery for an associate dentist where I am > in LA is about 350-to 450 a day, which after taxes is like 50-70k a > year. I caught a report on the news recently where they claimed the average salary of a US dentist is $89,000 Rick, why don't you spare your fingers some typing and google for the average net income of dentists in the US? I know the figure for the UK and it's not excessive. I also know the figure for the US and it's also not excessive - the average dentist is certainly not a millionaire. But I will let you find it for yourself. Regards, George > Rick, why don't you spare your fingers some typing and google for the > average net income of dentists in the US? I know the figure for the UK [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regards, > George What do you charge for a one unit crown, George, and don't lie because you know I'll find out. ricland > > Rick, why don't you spare your fingers some typing and google for the > > average net income of dentists in the US? I know the figure for the UK [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What do you charge for a one unit crown, George, and don't lie because > you know I'll find out. Sorry Rick I won't reply to this kind of messages anymore. You may think yourself as some kind of crusader but all you are is another dentist hater - and we had enough in this forum without you. The truth is out there and I told you a simple solution to find out how much dentists in the US earn. If you don't want to follow it, then you're just proving my point that you're just here to stir up trouble. Regards, George > > > Rick, why don't you spare your fingers some typing and google for the > > > average net income of dentists in the US? I know the figure for the UK [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Regards, > George My point was you Brits charge 75% less than American dentists do. The point of making that point was to illustrate how your defense of American dentists is based on something other than fact, that you do it to curry favor with the American dentists in this group, that what you do is no different from what American dentists do; that is, they're all in it together. They know their prices are 50% more than they should be but demand these onerous prices from their patients because they think they're entitled ... to become millionaires. Now, George, I don't know how it works in Britain, but here in the states when you make a claim like yours -- "Their prices reflect their expenses!" -- you're expected to defend it when challenged, not equivocate the way you've been doing. The average price for a crown here in the States is $1000. In Britain it's $400. Why is that George? ricland > > > > Rick, why don't you spare your fingers some typing and google for the > > > > average net income of dentists in the US? I know the figure for the UK [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > ricland that should have been: The average price for a crown here in the States is $1000. In Britain, it's $250. Why is that, George? ricland I'm sorry Rick, you're mistaken. The average price for a privately-provisioned crown in the UK is around £300-400, which equates to $550-700. The reason for the difference is that british dentists will generally graduate with a debt of only $50,000 and insurance is much-much cheaper here. I pay only $2,300 per year to be covered for malpractice. The average income for a private dentist is around $150,000, which is much more than the income of the average US dentist. Despite seeming similar, the US and the UK have huge differences; you can't really compare them. > I'm sorry Rick, you're mistaken. The average price for a > privately-provisioned crown in the UK is around £300-400, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Despite seeming similar, the US and the UK have huge differences; you > can't really compare them. If you would be so kind as to itemize the expenses incurred by the dentist servicing the crown, I would appreciate it. Round numbers will do. ricland OK Rick I am a British private dentist. I charge about £300 for a crown. It will take about 1-1.5 hours of surgery time to do the work. Now a little about overheads- My surgery, not including dentists, employs 10 other people, eg nurses, receptionists, cleaners, practice manager, hygienists. The cost of employing these people to me is about £250,000 a year. Thats about half a million US dollars. The money to pay these people comes from me, and one other dentist. The cost per surgery to run is approx £100 per hour BEFORE a patient is sitting in the chair. Aside from peoples wages, my over heads include equipment, sterilisation of equipment, materials, insurance, building maintenance, bussiness rates, electricity bills, water bills, telephone bills, sewage bills, desposable of clinical waste bills. On top of this, when making a crown there is of course the lab fee, which is usually about £100. After that, I sometimes like to pay myself a bit of money for doing all the work. £300 seems to be quite reasonable to me. You must understand, dentistry is an expensive businness. I don't stick £300 in my pocket when I make a crown. You cannot look upon your tiny crown as costing £300. Its all the other stuff that has to take place to enable us to make your crown, or do your filling etc that puts the cost up. I hope this helps clarify things in your mind a bit milo George wrote: > I'm sorry Rick, you're mistaken. The average price for a > privately-provisioned crown in the UK is around £300-400, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Despite seeming similar, the US and the UK have huge differences; you > can't really compare them. If you would be so kind as to itemize the expenses incurred by the dentist servicing the crown, I would appreciate it. Round numbers will do. ricland > OK Rick > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > milo Thanks, Milo. Your fee is about half what U.S. dentits charge. Maybe someone would like to explain that. I'll not hold my breath. ricland Thanks, Milo. Your fee is about half what U.S. dentits charge. Maybe someone would like to explain that. I'll not hold my breath. ricland ----------------------------------------------------------- You can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal of 300 pounds). Might not be a very good one, but you can find it! T > Thanks, Milo. Your fee is about half what U.S. dentits charge. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > T And I could find a needle in a haystack if I had enough time. What's your point...? Ricland > > You can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal of 300 > > pounds). Might not be a very good one, but you can find it! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ricland On a re-read it appears my point was that you can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal of 300 pounds). Which word didn't you understand? T > > > You can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal of > 300 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > T Where? ricland > > > > You can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal of > > 300 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > ricland exactly! T > > > > > You can find a crown in the good old USA for $547.05 (current equal > of [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > T I'm afraid that's not how it works, Tony. Here in the states if one talks the talk, one is expected to walk the walk. ricland > I'm afraid that's not how it works, Tony. > > Here in the states if one talks the talk, one is expected to walk the > walk. > > ricland You've done a lot of talking. When can we count on you walking? T > > I'm afraid that's not how it works, Tony. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > T Here in the land of E Pluribus Unum we use something call a "vote" to gauge the will of the people. So, let's put it to a vote: Everyone who wants me to go, vote "nay"; everyone who wants me to stay, vote "yes!" Oh, I almost forgot the most important part -- all "nay" votes by dentists will be counted as half votes to balance things. Ler her rip... ricland ricland I vote for you staying. I kind of want to see how long you find it entertaining to badger a group of people. I enjoy such experiments in human behavior. What else you got to complain about? T > > > I'm afraid that's not how it works, Tony. > > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > ricland > I vote for you staying. I kind of want to see how long you find it > entertaining to badger a group of people. I enjoy such experiments in human [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > ricland I'm batting 1000 so far. Ok, let's make it interesting. Let's hold a poll to see how many people want Rick to stay. My vote is no. ricland I disigree, the average price for a crown from a prostodontist is 1000 but from a general dentist in the US it's much much less, I have seen ranging from 350 to 600.. > The average price for a crown here in the States is $1000. In Britain > it's $400. > Why is that George? R E P L Y That's the one with the topless dental hygienists, isn't it? *** They owned sex dental offices. She had enough evidence on him to take everything but his school ring in the divorce. In fact, when he sa her bearing down on him in the Mercedes, that's probably why he didn't get out the way .. or get up after she ran over him the first time. riclan -- Joel34 > R E P L Y > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They owned sex dental offices. She had enough evidence on him to take > everything but his school ring in the divorce. > He meant six dental offices as in the German for six is sechs. Eins , zwei, drei , fier , funf , sechs (sex) dental offices. > > R E P L Y > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > zwei, drei > , fier , funf , sechs (sex) dental offices. typos like that should stop now. I was posting from a 10 year old laptop and couldn't see the text well. Today I purchased an HP desk system. Pray for death.... ricland > > R E P L Y > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > zwei, drei > , fier , funf , sechs (sex) dental offices. No sex?? Rats...this discussion just got a lot less interesting. T Funny thread, Dude -- Joel34 Because I could -- dj > Because I could. Ah, a man who knows his limitations. ricland > > Because I could. > > Ah, a man who knows his limitations. > > ricland A man's got to know his limitations. T >>>Because I could. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > T I know what you're thinkin', ....punk! Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > I know what you're thinkin', ....punk! > > Steve You really do! ...and that is Dr. punk to you sir!! (being able to say THAT is why I really became a dentist) T > >>>Because I could. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Brooklyn, NY > 718-258-5001 Wait a minute ...How do I know it was Steve and not Mark who wrote that? ricland |
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