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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2006

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root canal

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katelyn.tung@gmail.com - 12 May 2006 19:00 GMT
Hi,

I had apico done on my tooth just now. The endodontist discovered two
pieces of files in two different root canals. I had to be operated on
two areas which resulted in 6 stitches. How unusual is this? Does this
mean my dentist is incompetent in doing root canals? Also, she did not
tell me that she broke two files.

Thanks,

Katelyn
Tony Bad - 12 May 2006 20:28 GMT
> Hi,
>
> I had apico done on my tooth just now. The endodontist discovered two
> pieces of files in two different root canals. I had to be operated on
> two areas which resulted in 6 stitches. How unusual is this?

Not very unusual

> Does this
> mean my dentist is incompetent in doing root canals?

No, not necessarily

> Also, she did not
> tell me that she broke two files.

This bothers me. You should have been informed of this and the possible
complications that may (and did!!) result .

T
Newbie - 14 May 2006 23:10 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Katelyn

apico = apicoectomy, surgical endodontics.

Very hard to say without seeing a radiograph (x-ray)

You don't say which tooth {upper/lower/front/back/etc...}

Never understood why people count 'stitches'.
It takes as many as it takes,  they are called sutures,
and there are many different ways to tie them.

Cannot comment on the competency of your dentist.

There is no such thing as a 'broken file'.
An instrument may 'separate', but there is an accepted
technic that may use an endodontic instrument as part
of the obturation.

Check out: http://www.aae.org for more information about endodontics.

BTW in SMD 'root canal' is commonly refered to as RCT.
[root canal therapy]

Best wishes,
Steven Bornfeld - 15 May 2006 02:37 GMT
>>Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> technic that may use an endodontic instrument as part
> of the obturation.

    You've been to too many lectures.  Yes, IF a canal has been thoroughly
debrided, a "separated" file may well be retained without harm.  But
this should not be posited as "accepted" technique.  Some broken files
are unavoidable; but the vast majority can be avoided by using
instruments as they are designed to be used, and not using them past
their useful life.  This is particularly true for NiTi files, which show
little sign of fatigue before breaking.

Steve

> Check out: http://www.aae.org for more information about endodontics.
>
> BTW in SMD 'root canal' is commonly refered to as RCT.
> [root canal therapy]
>
> Best wishes,
Bill - 15 May 2006 17:38 GMT
Yes, IF a canal has been thoroughly
debrided, a "separated" file may well be retained without harm.  But
this should not be posited as "accepted" technique.  Some broken files
are unavoidable; but the vast majority can be avoided by using
instruments as they are designed to be used, and not using them past
their useful life.  This is particularly true for NiTi files, which
show
little sign of fatigue before breaking.

Steve
____________________________

I have to agree with Dr. Bornfeld. The presence of two different pieces
of files, in two different canals, indicates a problem.

- dentaldoc
Newbie - 16 May 2006 00:08 GMT
>Yes, IF a canal has been thoroughly
>debrided, a "separated" file may well be retained without harm.  But
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>- dentaldoc

We don't know what type of files separated.
Newbie - 16 May 2006 00:06 GMT
>> There is no such thing as a 'broken file'.
>> An instrument may 'separate', but there is an accepted
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Steve

While I agree that a separated instrument may not the most ideal
obturation material, there is the technic of intentionally using an
endodontic instrument as part of the RC fill.

NiTi doesn't corrode, so if it's in the canal tightly, and there
is no leakage, things will likely be OK.

NiTi instruments should be considered 'single use' instruments.
One molar case and discard. In very small canals 6, 8, 10
hand files should be used to start, then enlarge the canal to a 20
before introducing NiTi rotary instruments.
This is likely less important than using new instruments
for every case.

BTW I often discard many 6, 8, and 10's during a single case but the
newer stiffer files don't 'kink' as easily. Besides, new instruments
cut more efficiently and are less likely to separate.
Steven Bornfeld - 16 May 2006 03:47 GMT
>>>There is no such thing as a 'broken file'.
>>>An instrument may 'separate', but there is an accepted
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> obturation material, there is the technic of intentionally using an
> endodontic instrument as part of the RC fill.

    New one on me.  Can you provide references?

> NiTi doesn't corrode, so if it's in the canal tightly, and there
> is no leakage, things will likely be OK.

    If broken instruments seal well (there is evidence that sometimes they
do, and sometimes they don't--it's usually because they've snagged on
dentinal filings.  If you're using chlorinated soda and EDTA, and using
the instruments properly, you shouldn't be getting that kind of a
dentinal plug.

> NiTi instruments should be considered 'single use' instruments.
> One molar case and discard. In very small canals 6, 8, 10
> hand files should be used to start, then enlarge the canal to a 20
> before introducing NiTi rotary instruments.
> This is likely less important than using new instruments
> for every case.

    We agree here, though my lectures on rotary endo they only required us
to get to measurement with a #15 hand instrument before starting with
the rotary.  They also advised us to recapitulate with the #15 file to
measurement after every new rotary instrument.

> BTW I often discard many 6, 8, and 10's during a single case but the
> newer stiffer files don't 'kink' as easily. Besides, new instruments
> cut more efficiently and are less likely to separate.

    I've broken my share of instruments over the years.  I also rarely use
anything as small as a 6.  Certainly I'm not aggressive with these small
instruments, and I don't often kink them.  If I see them deforming,
they're history.  Maybe the new ss files are stronger, but I'd bet I'm
breaking fewer instruments now because I'm being less cheap about
replacing them.

Steve
Newbie - 16 May 2006 18:30 GMT
>>>>There is no such thing as a 'broken file'.
>>>>An instrument may 'separate', but there is an accepted
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>    New one on me.  Can you provide references?

I just remember discussions in school and early practice.
It was largely equated to Ag points. Some also thought that
the old school 'endodontic implant' was somewhat similar in nature.

Will look around the bookshelf and see if there's any references.

>> NiTi doesn't corrode, so if it's in the canal tightly, and there
>> is no leakage, things will likely be OK.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>the instruments properly, you shouldn't be getting that kind of a
>dentinal plug.

Am using ProLube (edta) Tulsa Dental with hand files,
and flushing with hypochlorite before using rotaries.
Bubbles up nicely.

>> NiTi instruments should be considered 'single use' instruments.
>> One molar case and discard. In very small canals 6, 8, 10
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>the rotary.  They also advised us to recapitulate with the #15 file to
>measurement after every new rotary instrument.

15 is ok, but a 20 is better for a repeatable 'glide path'.
Am recapitulating often with a 10, and try to retain patency
when achievable.

>> BTW I often discard many 6, 8, and 10's during a single case but the
>> newer stiffer files don't 'kink' as easily. Besides, new instruments
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>breaking fewer instruments now because I'm being less cheap about
>replacing them.

Discarding worn instruments is a definite factor.
I don't think it's about being cheap, we just weren't taught.

BTW still have some nice sharp 60 -  80's from d-sch ;-)

>Steve
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 16 May 2006 18:54 GMT
> I just remember discussions in school and early practice.
> It was largely equated to Ag points. Some also thought that
> the old school 'endodontic implant' was somewhat similar in nature.
>
> Will look around the bookshelf and see if there's any references.

    We also were told that silver points "always" failed eventually.  Of
course this is nonsense.  I don't use them, but I've seen patients with
50 year old silver wire endos with absolutely no sign of breakdown.

>>>NiTi doesn't corrode, so if it's in the canal tightly, and there
>>>is no leakage, things will likely be OK.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Am recapitulating often with a 10, and try to retain patency
> when achievable.

    Agreed.   If I have a curved canal though, as I get to a #20 I'm
already a bit concerned about "zipping" the apex, which is one of the
reasons I'm using rotary NiTi for these teeth.  I do use a balanced
force technique with my hand instruments--this is supposed to minimize
zipping, but I'm not convinced that it always works.
    I'm still using cold gutta percha, and unless I have curved canals or
am working on a molar (I still refer out a substantial percentage of
molars), I often do hand instrumentation (crown down).  For the easy
teeth, I still think it's quicker, when you factor in all the messing
around with equipment.

>>>BTW I often discard many 6, 8, and 10's during a single case but the
>>>newer stiffer files don't 'kink' as easily. Besides, new instruments
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> BTW still have some nice sharp 60 -  80's from d-sch ;-)

    I think we're pretty much on the same page here.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

drdolittle - 16 May 2006 18:09 GMT
Steven Bornfeld Wrote:
> > On 12 May 2006 11:00:15 -0700, katelyn.tung@gmail.com wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> > Best wishes,
Katelyn

Files do break sometimes.  Unanticipated file separation, fracture,  o
breakage (whatever you want to call it), is not all that uncommon

In fact, this is usually an accidental complication and not a
anticipated  technique for obturation.  In other words, using a portio
of the file to permanently plug-up a debrided canal as Newbie ha
suggested, is generally not the norm in RCT.

With that said however,  when a file does separate, the endodontist ma
decide that the best course is to leave the fragment in the canal, a
sometimes there is more risk involved in trying to remove the piece.
This idecision is made on a case-by-case basis

The fact that the 2 files separated in your situation, does not mea
your endodontist is incompetent.  IMHO, it just means she was unlucky.
It may prompt her to change vendors.  

BTW, I count stitches too.  Thank you for elaborating. :)

It sounds like the surgeon has taken care of things. Good luck an
please keep us posted

Here is some additional information for you

http://www.endoexperience.com/fax-JulyAugSept04.ht

--
drdolittl
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 16 May 2006 18:24 GMT
> Steven Bornfeld Wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> http://www.endoexperience.com/fax-JulyAugSept04.htm

    This is a very nice page for dentists--thanks!

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

drdolittle - 14 Aug 2006 17:05 GMT
Steven Bornfeld Wrote:
> > On 12 May 2006 11:00:15 -0700, katelyn.tung@gmail.com wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> > Best wishes,
Steve

Just had a conversation with a Canadian dentist (on another forum).
Apparently there is an old technique (of the silver cone era, 1940s
where a file is purposely left in as an obturant, like a silver cone

However today is not generally an accepted technique.  In fact I hav
read some literature (abstracts form Pubmed)  where some of these hav
later needed removal due to subsequent sequelae

Best

drdo-very-little :-

--
drdolittl
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 14 Aug 2006 17:22 GMT
> Steve,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> drdo-very-little :-)

    Well, depends.  By the time I was in dental school ('73-76), silver
wire endos had been more or less abandoned.  However, I continue to see
them providing good service in some of my older patients, sometimes 50
years later--this in spite of the admonition from some endodontists that
silver wire endos "always fail eventually".

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 
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