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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / March 2006Dental Records
I am transferring to a new dentist due to dissatifaction. Is there any law saying the dentist office has to transfer or give me a copy of my records and x-rays? If so, can you point me to a link? Thanx > I am transferring to a new dentist due to dissatifaction. Is there any > law saying the dentist office has to transfer or give me a copy of my > records and x-rays? If so, can you point me to a link? > > Thanx Details of regulations vary from state to state. But generally, the dental office must supply a copy (not originals) of all dental records requested, including x-rays. They are permitted to charge a reasonable fee to the patient for duplication. The originals are the property of the practice. Steve Well said, Steve. A policy of some offices is to SEND the x-rays to the next dentist and not GIVE the x-rays to the patient. This is often prudent. Joel Steven Bornfeld Wrote: > > I am transferring to a new dentist due to dissatifaction. Is ther > any [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Stev -- Joel34 If sending to another dentist in most practices there is no fee for duplication since the other practice can make the copies of the x-rays and send the originals back. hmmm. what if I am relocating to another continent... and I want to take all my records . with me.. have still not decided on a dentist there.... how do i ask them to hand me over my records. same thing for medical records... one Dr. I saw.. wanted 25$ for a copy of all my records. but it was free to transfer them to another Doctor.. So i got them transferrred to the Dr no 2. and then requested them for a copy and guess what he said... " that he will only release those copies back to the sender." and not to me. phew !!! i ended up paying 25$ and now have a copy of all my records one thing I have learnt is that,, each annual health checkup.. request for a copy of all lab work reports. .and keeep them as ur health record.. rather than asking them at the end and paying $$$ > hmmm. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > them for a copy and guess what he said... " that he will only release > those copies back to the sender." and not to me. i agree that you pay for the visit you should own the records. However....Doctors do actually have a legitamite reason for keeping the orginals which is lawsuits. If they gave the originals to you and you lost the records and sued the doctor a couple of years later afterall, how would they defend themselves? >>hmmm. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to you and you lost the records and sued the doctor a couple of years > later afterall, how would they defend themselves? Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as far as I can tell this has always been the case legally. Where copies are furnished to the patient gratis it is a courtesy to the patient. Even in the case of a law suit the law stipulates that the dentist should be reimbursed for records released to plaintif on request. Steve > Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and > clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as > far as I can tell this has always been the case legally. Well on the bill then it should have an itemization for records cost. Unless the dentist pays for the film himself and the cost of using the machine (which I doubt) the patient is truly paying for or funding the creaion of the records and in addition paying for the diagnosis and clincal judgement. I suppose each side has a good point about ownership of records and everyone can agree that the patient should pay for copies, but what really bugs me is poor copies that aren't the quality of the orginals. I don't know if this is typical but one OS gave me some kind of zerox copy/printout of a panorex which was barely readable. With digitization all copies and originals should be of the same quality so I suppose even this will soon become a moot point. cz > > Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and > > clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > machine (which I doubt) the patient is truly paying for or funding the > creaion of the records That is, the originals, not the copies >> Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and >>clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > cz You are correct--x-ray copies are usually of poor quality. I don't have digital x-rays, but frequently use double films, so that rather than a copy I get two originals. Steve . Many xray type images are stored digitally. Ask for xray type images by email ! > >> Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and > >>clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve . Dental record data can be kept online, on computer systems. Ask for your dental record data on a disc or by email ! > >> Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and > >>clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve You are correct--x-ray copies are usually of poor quality. I don't have digital x-rays, but frequently use double films, so that rather than a copy I get two originals. Steve ________________________________ The double films are a great invention and have been around for many years. Today it is possible to digitize single films, so a clear copy can be made. However, the use of double-film packs is a simple and easy way to have two originals from the beginning. - dentaldoc "Well on the bill then it should have an itemization for records cost. Unless the dentist pays for the film himself and the cost of using the machine (which I doubt) the patient is truly paying for or funding the creaion of the records and in addition paying for the diagnosis and clincal judgement." _________________________________ I couldn't disagree more. >"Well on the bill then it should have an itemization for records cost." There is no separate "records cost" for itemization. When you buy a loaf of bread, is there an itemization for packaging cost? For shelving cost? For transportation cost to ship the bread to the grocer? Should the transportation cost of the bread be further broken down and itemized? How about the cost of the gasoline, the oil, the cost of the driver for the bakery truck? How about the cost of the insurance for the truck owner? All a dentist does when creating a "record" is to jot down some notes, and put them together in an organized fashion for his future needs. How much does it cost YOU to jot down some notes? To buy the pens, pencils and paper? The paper clips? Staples? Cover folders? The only certainty is that no number would be accurate, as it would be impossible to figure all the variables. The idea of itemization for such things is sheer folly. >"Unless the dentist pays for the film himself and the cost of using the machine (which I doubt) " What?? UNLESS?? OF COURSE the dentist is paying for the film! What dental supply company would send the film to the dentist unless he paid for it? And the cost of using the machine? Huge! And the dentist pays for ALL of it. I had to pay many thousands of dollars for my xray machine and the associated developing and viewing setup, not to mention the more recent computer setup to digitize the films when necessary. When you say "which I doubt," WHY do you doubt it? Do you really think that all the expensive supplies that dentists must buy are just left out on the street by the manufacturers so that dentists driving by can just pick them up for free?? >"the patient is truly paying for or funding the creaion of the records and in addition paying for the diagnosis and clincal judgement." The patient is ALSO "truly paying" for the dentist's daily food and shelter. The dentists performs work, and for this work, he deserves payment. That is how he makes his living. If the patient "truly pays" for the creation of the records, then by the same reasoning, he also "truly pays" for the dentist's clothing, and the dentist's car, and the dentist's house. Does the patient then OWN the dentist's house and car? Presumably, the patient works for a living, just like the dentist. I assume the patient's employer pays him for his work. Does that same patient then believe that his employer owns the patient's house and his car? After all, the employer "truly paid" for the house and the car, so doesn't the employer OWN them too? - dentaldoc >the patient is truly paying for or funding the > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > cost? For shelving cost? For transportation cost to ship the bread to > the grocer? I suppose we could argue this both ways. Actually the patient owns the records idea was put forth by someone else on another list. However in terms of food consider the following: You go to a restuarant and request a meal. Some restuarants, especially buffets do not allow food to be taken from the restuarant. Now suppose you go to a restuarant and at the end of the evening food is left over and the restuarant has no policy about food leaving the restuarant? Who should get the food? the restuarant since they had to "create" the "whole meal" for the diner as a necessary step in providing the contracted dining experience? or the diner who afterall, actually paid for the leftover food. Similarly, when a patient leaves an office who has more right to the "leftover x-rays" the "cook/dentist" who created the x-rays as a necessary part of the dental visit, or the patient, who afterall funded the materials and x-ray use? Or think of it this way, the city contracts an artist to paint a mural. As part of the cost the artist requests money for paints and other materials. The artist surely would not be expected to pay for these materials himself! When the mural is done, who should have possesion of the mural? The city, obviously because they paid for it. Now who should have possesion of the leftover paints, sketchbooks and other materials. The city, they paid for that too! > Should the transportation cost of the breor ad be further broken down and > itemized? How about the cost of the gasoline, the oil, the cost of the > driver for the bakery truck? How about the cost of the insurance for > the truck owner? If you pay for the truck as part of the delivery cost, who should get the truck after the bread is delivered? That is why I am saying, that the patient bought the films for the dentist unless the dentist never passes that cost onto the patient. So the patient should own what they buy at the conclusion of the transaction. > All a dentist does when creating a "record" is to jot down some notes, > and put them together in an organized fashion for his future needs. I am thinking more of x-rays. However a patient has an expectation that records are being created which they can access. at any rate if the patient pays for the index cards, notebook, pens etc.. guess who should own them at the end of the visit? In fact by paying for record materials, the patient is funding the creation/storage of records which satisfy a dentists legal obligations. Now if you said, I , the dentist have a legal burden to retain records as a result of treating you and therefore I will be applying some of the fee's towards that cost, or instead not crediting you for buying the records, I may agree that the paitent doesn't own the records. > How much does it cost YOU to jot down some notes? To buy the pens, > pencils and paper? The paper clips? Staples? Cover folders? The only > certainty is that no number would be accurate, as it would be > impossible to figure all the variables. If I was a contractor I would buy my own pens before taking notes for an installation. However if I passed that cost on to the consumer I would gladly give them my sketches/notes. > The idea of itemization for such things is sheer folly. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > OF COURSE the dentist is paying for the film! What dental supply > company would send the film to the dentist unless he paid for it? That is not what i said. Is the cost of the film passed to the consumer? > And the cost of using the machine? Huge! And the dentist pays for ALL > of it. I had to pay many thousands of dollars for my xray machine and > the associated developing and viewing setup, not to mention the more > recent computer setup to digitize the films when necessary. So how much do your charge for x-rays? Is that free? Suppose Bill gates payed for a new specialized x-ray machine in the 3rd world addition to the films to help make a difficult oral cancer diagnosis for underprivelaged patients. Should he own the x-ray machine ??? The answer is yes! The dentists doesn't get too keep it becaue they required the machine as part of their professional services. > The patient is ALSO "truly paying" for the dentist's daily food and > shelter. The patient is paying for the professional services ONCE. The dentist then uses that payment for whatever they want. The patient is not paying twice for the services and the food! >The dentists performs work, and for this work, he deserves > payment. That is how he makes his living. > > If the patient "truly pays" for the creation of the records, then by > the same reasoning, he also "truly pays" for the dentist's clothing, No, because the clothing is bought with money that the patient payed the dentist for a service. In the case of leftover records there is no service. Now if the dentist took money which the patient payed for diagnosis and then said, I will use this money I have earned to buy x-rays for you, I would agree that in a monetary/ethical sense the patient would have no right to the x-rays. > Presumably, the patient works for a living, just like the dentist. I > assume the patient's employer pays him for his work. Does that same > patient then believe that his employer owns the patient's house and his > car? They certainly own all the records created a work, the electronic records, EVEN ideas and or patients the patient may create while at work! Do you think that an employee could say to an employer, I quit and I'm taking all the reports and records I created while I was working for you since they were a necessary part of my professional/creative process. NOOOO, they own everything, and believe me they let you know it too! Steve wrote: > Both technically and legally, you are paying for the diagnosis and > clinical judgement. You are not paying for the physical records, and as > far as I can tell this has always been the case legally. ___________________________________ Yes, it always has been the case legally. Some folks may be surprised to learn that within living memory, some dentists didn't keep clinical records. In the early part of the 20th Century it was common for some dentists to see all patients on a walk-in basis. Treatment was rendered, paid for, and that was that. Neither the dentist nor the patient had any need to write anything down -- so no records were kept. The whole transaction was akin to buying a loaf of bread at the baker's. Who needed to keep records of that? I can recall older dentists who told me years ago that this was true, in a diminishing number of cases, up to the 1940's. By then, of course, all the younger, "modern" dentists were keeping some sort of records on all patients. Some of those records were really nothing more than a small note of what treatment was rendered, and the amount paid by the patient. Back in the 1970's, I worked for a dentist who had been in practice since 1947. His "records" for each patient consisted of a single 3 x 5 card, which listed the date and abbreviated type of treatment for each visit. Some of his patients' total records had 20 years of visits on ONE LITTLE CARD. A typical entry would be : "3-15-57 #3 ext. $15." Imagine! Obviously the dentist created the record to keep the accounts straight in his memory. The dentist doesn't own the patient's checkbook register when a patient writes in it, and the patient doesn't own the dentist's record when he writes in it. That is the way it has always been. - dentaldoc lakota wrote: i ended up paying 25$ and now have a copy of all my records ________________ That was a small amount of money. If you are moving to another continent, this is certainly the least of your expenses! Now you can make copies of your copies and furnish them to as many new doctors as you want. Cheap and easy. - dentaldoc |
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