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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / January 2006

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Sleep Bruxism - Evidence for CNS/ANS role

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Sue - 22 Dec 2005 22:02 GMT
"This suggests that the central and/or autonomic nervous systems,
rather than peripheral sensory factors, have a dominant role in SB
genesis. "

-Sue

Topical review: sleep bruxism and the role of peripheral sensory
influences.

Kato T, Thie NM, Huynh N, Miyawaki S, Lavigne GJ.

Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry, University of Montreal, Sleep and
Biological Rhythm Research Center, Hospital du Sacre-Coeur of Montreal,
Quebec, Canada.

Sleep bruxism (SB) is an unusual orofacial movement described as a
parafunction in dentistry and as a parasomnia in sleep medicine. Since
several peripheral influences could be involved in sleep-wake
regulation and the genesis of rhythmic jaw movements, the authors have
reviewed the relevant literature to facilitate understanding of
mechanisms possibly involved in SB genesis. Various animal and human
studies indicate that during either wakefulness or anesthesia,
orofacial sensory inputs (e.g., from periodontium, mucosa, and muscle)
could influence jaw muscle activity. However, the role of these sensory
inputs in jaw motor activity during sleep is unclear. Interestingly,
during sleep, the jaw is usually open due to motor suppression; tooth
contact most likely occurs in association with sleep arousal. Recent
physiologic evidence supports an association between sleep arousal and
SB; a sequential change from autonomic (cardiac) and brain cortical
activities precede SB-related jaw motor activity. This suggests that
the central and/or autonomic nervous systems, rather than peripheral
sensory factors, have a dominant role in SB genesis. However, some
peripheral sensory factors may exert an influence on SB through their
interaction with sleep-wake mechanisms. The intent of this review is to
integrate various physiologic concepts in order to better understand
the mechanisms underlying the genesis of SB.
Tim Dixon - 22 Dec 2005 22:06 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135288975.821581.5q9720@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

so what does this have to do with anything?  another unproven theory.
Tim Dixon - 22 Dec 2005 22:08 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135288975.8215k81.59720@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

attention Sue:  Bruxism is nothing new and probably everybody with muscles
does it, it's frequency, duration and intensity that counts.
Tim Dixon - 22 Dec 2005 22:11 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135288w975.821581.59720@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

CLS
The Webby - 22 Dec 2005 22:12 GMT
And so what are *you* going to do with this information?

> "This suggests that the central and/or autonomic nervous systems,
> rather than peripheral sensory factors, have a dominant role in SB
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> integrate various physiologic concepts in order to better understand
> the mechanisms underlying the genesis of SB.
Tim Dixon - 22 Dec 2005 22:14 GMT
She is hoping someone here will agree with the author so she can go
elsewhere and say 'the dentists over in SMD think this is evidence' or some
other wording, which ever..  its all just a bunch of CLS we are witnessing.

> And so what are *you* going to do with this information?
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>> integrate various physiologic concepts in order to better understand
>> the mechanisms underlying the genesis of SB.
Tim Dixon - 22 Dec 2005 22:32 GMT
I just noticed Sue has posted this same article at that other place she
hangs out.  I hope no one will respond to her because your comments, or some
paraphrase of your comments, or the standard "the dentists at SMD agree"
statement will be posted over there.

I wouldn't touch this ladies stuff with a ten foot bur.
JanD - 23 Dec 2005 01:21 GMT
> I just noticed Sue has posted this same article at that other place she
> hangs out.  I hope no one will respond to her because your comments, or
> some paraphrase of your comments, or the standard "the dentists at SMD
> agree" statement will be posted over there.
>
> I wouldn't touch this ladies stuff with a ten foot bur.

But you are most eager to follow her around.

This is called cyberstalking, Timmy.
Tim Dixon - 23 Dec 2005 01:23 GMT
"JanD" <JanD@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:QiIqf.426785$0284.307416@attbi_s22...

ignore the old hag chester

http://www.scimeddentistry.com/jd/zapper.html
Amatus Cremona - 23 Dec 2005 14:26 GMT
Kill-Filed a long time ago.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
> I just noticed Sue has posted this same article at that other place she
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I wouldn't touch this ladies stuff with a ten foot bur.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT
Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
interested in reading it, not just the summary you posted.
Tim Dixon - 23 Dec 2005 21:40 GMT
<pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11353741007.240413.36710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

cut-- hey your soap is coming on
JanD - 23 Dec 2005 22:23 GMT
> <pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:11353741007.240413.36710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> cut-- hey your soap is coming on

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TIM, YOU DO NOT CONTROL THIS NEWSGROUPS!

Restored:

Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
interested in reading it, not just the summary you posted.
Tim Dixon - 23 Dec 2005 22:24 GMT
"JanD" <JanD@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:GN_qf.671271$xqm3.69588@attbi_s21...

ignore the old hag chester, for a good laugh go to:
http://www.scimeddentistry.com/jd/zapper.html  recognize anyone?
Sue - 23 Dec 2005 21:46 GMT
pellmellwillyni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
> interested in reading it, not just the summary you posted.

The abstract was on Pubmed.  I could not get the full article as we  do
not subscribe to the  journal.  I will look it up for you when I am at
work later today.

May I ask you.... are you a dentist, researcher, other?

Thank you,
Sue
Tim Dixon - 23 Dec 2005 21:51 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135374419.4032289.232420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> pellmellwillyni...@hotmail.com wrote:

Oh this is a riot...
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 25 Dec 2005 07:47 GMT
> pellmellwillyni...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Thank you,
> Sue

Great, thanks!

I'm just a patient. And right now my computer is leaking memory
(whatever that really means), so I'm not permitting cookies that don't
expire at the end of my online session. That makes lots of those
membership sites unavailable to me. It will be very helpful if you can
snag the full article.
Amatus Cremona - 23 Dec 2005 22:00 GMT
She would rather just paraphrase parts of it

Amatus Cremona
..
> Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
> interested in reading it, not just the summary you posted.
letsconnect - 25 Dec 2005 14:03 GMT
Access to full text articles is about $20+ a pop, unless you have
access through a university (as a registered student) or a subscription
through your place of work. In any event, it's illegal to redistribute
the full text versions, as the copyright usually belongs to the
respective journals.

> She would rather just paraphrase parts of it
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > Sue, do you know where to find the entire text of this article? I'd be
> > interested in reading it, not just the summary you posted.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 25 Dec 2005 20:59 GMT
"Access to full text articles is about $20+ a pop, unless you have
access through a university (as a registered student) or a subscription

through your place of work. In any event, it's illegal to redistribute
the full text versions, as the copyright usually belongs to the
respective journals."

* * * * *

Hm. I hadn't thought about the copyright issue. You're right about
that. Maybe my local library will have access (it has access to an
enormous and amazing number of things, including a monograph I borrowed
recently that only three American universities even owned). If Sue
gives me full bibliographical info, I could at least ask locally.

Thanks for your warning.
Tim Dixon - 26 Dec 2005 00:31 GMT
> "Access to full text articles is about $20+ a pop, unless you have
> access through a university (as a registered student) or a subscription
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks for your warning.

Why not just go see another NTI dentist instead of trying to hope you will
find some answer in a medline article.  Listen, you're not going to find it.

I hate to say it, but not all NTI providers are equally qualified, and in
fact, many need a lot more exposure to the basic principals of fabrication
and delivery than they have had.  I am not suggesting your NTI provider
isn't qualified, but if your not getting relief then its very likely that
the design needs to be modified.  You should not be able to clench with
enough force at night with a properly fabricated NTI in place to cause
ongoing symptoms.  Yes some people continue to have problems, that is why it
is important to get the thing looked at the minute you began experiencing
pain or discomfort.

Go to www.heacacheprevention.com and punch in your zip code and see if there
is someone else nearby listed and give them a call.  That article she is
referencing will do NOTHING to remedy your situation.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 26 Dec 2005 06:16 GMT
Tim, you are so right about not all NTI providers' being equally
qualified! If you search this newsgroup long enough, you might find my
post asking for references for NTI fabricators. I got my current NTI
from a provider listed on Jim's site. Although he was enthusiastic
about the device, he did some odd things during initial fabrication.
His partner is the one who really messed the device up, having me bite
into the bottom of it while it was still soft and I was anesthetized
from a filling and couldn't tell the thing was still soft. When I put
it on, I realized it had teeth marks in it, so I filed the thing flat
myself. After this experience, I am hesitant about paying another NTI
provider without a solid reference, which neither Dr. Steve could give
me.

OTOH, I also had problems with the NTI that Dr. Boyd fabricated for me,
and I'd think his NTIs would be the best around.

As to whether the article contains information I would find useful, why
don't you leave that judgment up to me? It is not you but I who lives
with my choices.
Tim Dixon - 26 Dec 2005 13:19 GMT
> Tim, you are so right about not all NTI providers' being equally
> qualified! If you search this newsgroup long enough, you might find my
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> don't you leave that judgment up to me? It is not you but I who lives
> with my choices.

If Dr. Boyd personally made you an NTI I can guarantee he will fix it for if
its not working for you.  Did you contact him and tell him of your troubles?
Did you have any follow-up visits?  Or did you in any way attempt to modify
the device yourself?  Dr. Boyd see's patients every thursday in his office
in Solana Beach, I would call carol and make an appointment immediately.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 26 Dec 2005 17:33 GMT
He made the NTI for me when he lived in Michigan. I had problems
immediately, which he tried to solve by grinding more of my already
ground lower teeth. (I later saw an intraoral camera image of the
exposed dentin.)

After a week of wearing the device at night, I hadn't slept a wink.
Regular sleep being specifically addressed in his NTI instructions, I
wanted to wear the daytime device at night until I could drive back to
get the night device adjusted. I wasn't going to be able to return for
some months, though. Instead of letting me keep the device until I
could return, he asked me to send it back and he returned my uncashed
check. True to his word on that money back guarantee.

A few months later, I found a local dentist who made my current device
and altered it (not my teeth) so it didn't hurt the lower teeth. I
never modified Jim's NTI, just the one badly "fixed" by the partner of
the local dentist who made the current device.

Solana Beach is probably thousands of miles from me.
The Webby - 26 Dec 2005 17:40 GMT
> He made the NTI for me when he lived in Michigan. I had problems
> immediately, which he tried to solve by grinding more of my already
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Solana Beach is probably thousands of miles from me.

Are you on a first-name basis with Dr. Boyd?  

Webby
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 27 Dec 2005 01:30 GMT
Since he introduces himself as Jim, I suppose I am, as are the others
who have been to his office. What's your interest in what I call him?
The Webby - 27 Dec 2005 06:08 GMT
> Since he introduces himself as Jim, I suppose I am, as are the others
> who have been to his office. What's your interest in what I call him?

Oh.. no particular interest.
Tim Dixon - 26 Dec 2005 17:51 GMT
> Solana Beach is probably thousands of miles from me.

Yes it likely is.  Well as I suggested, there is that database of dentists
you could use if you really wanted to.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 27 Dec 2005 01:31 GMT
And as I said, I've used it. I'm not sure how to do any better than I
already have.
The Webby - 27 Dec 2005 06:09 GMT
> And as I said, I've used it. I'm not sure how to do any better than I
> already have.

You do realize that no one can see what you're responding to don't you?
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 27 Dec 2005 17:27 GMT
> > And as I said, I've used it. I'm not sure how to do any better than I
> > already have.
>
> You do realize that no one can see what you're responding to don't you?

Not really. I'm reading and posting from Google, which inserts a link
(or sometimes a quote) of what I'm responding to and also provides a
"tree" to show who's responding to what. Since (if I can find what I'm
looking to read), I see a perfectly clear connection to the post(s)
being referenced, it's hard for me to imagine fully what people getting
emails or other newsgroup formats are seeing or not seeing. In
addition, this new Beta format of Google Groups sometimes doesn't
preprint the post to which I'm responding. I haven't yet figured out a
less than clumsy way to quote it myself, since that caret system that
we're all used to by now is missing.

If you've figured out how to get carets regularly on the new Google
system, I'd sure like to know how it's done!
letsconnect - 28 Dec 2005 01:26 GMT
> Not really. I'm reading and posting from Google, which inserts a link
> (or sometimes a quote) of what I'm responding to and also provides a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If you've figured out how to get carets regularly on the new Google
> system, I'd sure like to know how it's done!

Click on "show options" beside the post/name of the person/post you'd
like to respond to, and then choose "Reply" (rather than "Reply" at the
bottom of that post). That way, you'll get the quote automatically.
It's all a bit counterintuitive - the "Reply" button at the bottom of
posts is too tempting :-)...
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 28 Dec 2005 04:44 GMT
> > Not really. I'm reading and posting from Google, which inserts a link
> > (or sometimes a quote) of what I'm responding to and also provides a
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> It's all a bit counterintuitive - the "Reply" button at the bottom of
> posts is too tempting :-)...

Wellllll.... Lookee that! Now, can I remember to do that each time I
reply? You're right that the Reply button at the bottom of the post is
tempting.

Thanks for the tip!
letsconnect - 26 Dec 2005 03:06 GMT
The reference is  J Orofac Pain. 2003 Summer;17(3):187 Topical review:
sleep bruxism and the role of peripheral sensory influences. Kato T,
Thie NM, Huynh N, Miyawaki S, Lavigne GJ.

But usually those are not available through libraries other than
university libraries.

As Tim said, if it's a personal interest rather than a research
interest, the best thing would be to hook up with a dentist in your
area who's into that sort of thing.

> "Access to full text articles is about $20+ a pop, unless you have
> access through a university (as a registered student) or a subscription
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Thanks for your warning.
letsconnect - 26 Dec 2005 03:27 GMT
> The reference is  J Orofac Pain. 2003 Summer;17(3):187 Topical review:
> sleep bruxism and the role of peripheral sensory influences. Kato T,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> interest, the best thing would be to hook up with a dentist in your
> area who's into that sort of thing.

Umm, judging from your previous posts (that's to pellmell - I don't
read everything on this newsgroup for obvious reasons), you've already
done that. Although of course some dentists will be more experienced
with the NTI-TSS than others. Might be interesting to see what this
Italian dentist does differently - certainly, that's what I'd like to
find out if I was in your position. Maybe it was elaborated upon
somewhere along the line, but most of the interesting stuff is buried
amongst flame wars.

> > "Access to full text articles is about $20+ a pop, unless you have
> > access through a university (as a registered student) or a subscription
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> >
> > Thanks for your warning.
Tim Dixon - 26 Dec 2005 13:22 GMT
>> The reference is  J Orofac Pain. 2003 Summer;17(3):187 Topical review:
>> sleep bruxism and the role of peripheral sensory influences. Kato T,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> somewhere along the line, but most of the interesting stuff is buried
> amongst flame wars.

There is no one in the USA currently fabricating the A.G.E.LK and so you
would have to travel to either bologna or trieste to see Dr. Stradaioli.
http://www.studio-luksich.it/studio.htm
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 26 Dec 2005 17:44 GMT
"most of the interesting stuff is buried amongst flame wars. "

Yeah, and with the current configuration of Google Groups, I'm having a
tough time finding the comments to which I wanted to read responses.
Hope they change the Beta version back to some of the more readable
aspects of the previous version. Otherwise, I'm seeing the future: This
bout of SMD reading isn't going to last long.
Tim Dixon - 26 Dec 2005 17:49 GMT
> "most of the interesting stuff is buried amongst flame wars. "
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> aspects of the previous version. Otherwise, I'm seeing the future: This
> bout of SMD reading isn't going to last long.

Why rely on goodle or yahoo, doesn't your ISP provide usenet feeds?  Just
get a news reader and be done with them.
pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 26 Dec 2005 18:40 GMT
Does Yahoo offer Usenet access? Maybe I'll check that out.

My ISP does provide feeds, but I don't like having that stuff in my
computer. I don't seem to be able to get rid of old posts in Outlook
Express, and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
just as soon use the memory on someone else's computer.

Pros and cons to everything in life.
Stovepipe - 28 Dec 2005 06:28 GMT
> and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
> the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
> just as soon use the memory on someone else's computer.

With all due respect: this is one of the most rediculous things I've
heard yet in this (almost finished) year.

Get yourself a free copy of MacSOUP or some other Mac newsreader, set it
to purge articles older than 7 days and physically save the ones you've
read and want to keep. You need so little memory (Saved as SimpleText
files), it is totally illogical to rely on google groups for your UseNet
stuff.

If you want it on the Windoze box, pick up Forte Free Agent.

If you do not get a newsreader, you will NOT be able to pick up threads
as they develop. And you _will_ be wasting memory, (as google loads them
as html files) if you want to save them.

UseNet = NNTP/UUCP (compact, efficient)
Web/Google = HTTP (clumsy, big and smelly)

Re: OutLook Espress: you _can_ use it, but it is clumsy. To delete
articles, go over to Deleted Items, Select one and then Select All, and
hit Delete or Purge. Alternately, Select One/Select All, and physically
drag them to the trash. In O/E, they will still hang around untill you
Delete or Trash them with emptying the Trash as the last step.

As usual: JMO, JME, YMMV, DONTTRYTHISATHOME, GOEATMICE, etc......

SP
Signature

Take out the TRAASH to reply

Amatus Cremona - 28 Dec 2005 12:29 GMT
Harder to pull a DNS number off of Google, right PM ?  Plus, (for some
people) you can only have so many computers lined up in your basement.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> SP
Stovepipe - 28 Dec 2005 15:36 GMT
> Harder to pull a DNS number off of Google, right PM ?  Plus, (for some
> people) you can only have so many computers lined up in your basement.

When we get  back (around 3Jan2006), you'll have to educate me: DNS? PM?
Is this JME again in another masked crusader?

Meanwhile, Happy New Year to all the SMD. See youse all in a few days.
If we go into Rimouski, I'll try to Google Groups the SMD at their
Internet Café

Cheers, gang!   :-)
SP
Signature

Take out the TRAASH to reply

pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com - 28 Dec 2005 16:10 GMT
> > and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
> > the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> --
> Take out the TRAASH to reply

Great info. Thanks! I'll try it once I have a computer that doesn't
leak memory.

If you haven't had that happen to you -- e.g. having as few as one
window open and getting a "No more memory" message, knowing you may
lose access to all your data if you don't shut down immediately -- you
do not know whereof you speak. Until I have a secure system, I will not
be adding any more programs or saving anything unnecessary on the
computer. (Usenet posts are unnecessary.)
Sue - 29 Dec 2005 18:22 GMT
> > > and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
> > > the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> be adding any more programs or saving anything unnecessary on the
> computer. (Usenet posts are unnecessary.)

More stuff.

TMJ imbalance and autonomic disturbances (good reading, IMO):

http://www.virginiasmiles.com/html/dentalnews/37craniosacral_2.html

Excerpt:

"Located slightly anterior to the temporomandibular joint is an
autonomic nerve plexus call(ed) the Reticular Activating System.
Imbalance of the temporomandibular joint can produce a constant
hyperstimulation of this autonomic system, resulting in the patient
experiencing a pervasive sense of "fight or flight."  It is like
leaning on a fire alarm 24 hour a day.  This can affect not only the
patient's emotions, but their endocrine and other physiological systems
as well.  If the patient clenches their jaw and / or grinds their teeth
during sleep, they may wake up more fatigued than they had been when
they went to bed due to the constant firing of the sympathetic nerve
fibers."

;-)

-Sue
Tim Dixon - 29 Dec 2005 18:25 GMT
>> > > and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
>> > > the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> -Sue

You think thats good reading, well you just keep on reading that garbage
then..
Sue - 29 Dec 2005 19:08 GMT
> >> > > and with my Mac "leaking" memory, I'd just as soon not have
> >> > > the memory taken up with material much of which I'll never read. I'd
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> You think thats good reading, well you just keep on reading that garbage
> then..

Will do.  I enjoy reading everything from "traditional" Western
medicine to alternative, holistic, and Eastern medicine.  That one was
a quick read that I thought was interesting.  It would be  great if
craniosacral therapy  could relieve the pain associated with TMJ
imbalance.  It certainly is non-invasive and sounds great if it helps!

It was also posted on a dental website, so at least one dentist is
giving craniosacral therapy some  thought.

Here is a good review that describes reflex control of mastication (at
least quite extensively as to what was known at the time of print).

This is a bit longer read.

-Sue

link:

http://crobm.iadrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/13/1/85#DELLOW-AND-LUND-1971

Titles:
13(1):85-104 (2002)     Crit Rev Oral Biol Med
© 2002 International and American Associations for Dental Research
REFLEX CONTROL OF HUMAN JAW MUSCLES
Kemal S. Türker
Tim Dixon - 29 Dec 2005 19:22 GMT
Tim Dixon wrote:
> > pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Stovepipe wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> You think thats good reading, well you just keep on reading that garbage
> then..

>It was also posted on a dental website, so at least one dentist is
>giving craniosacral therapy some  thought.

So what, lost of dentists are doing all kinds of things that are worthless.

>Here is a good review that describes reflex control of mastication (at
>least quite extensively as to what was known at the time of print).

>This is a bit longer read.

I'm not interested in reading any of that.  Maybe someone else is around
here, but i highly doubt it.

Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to be
told that?
Sue - 29 Dec 2005 21:48 GMT
> Tim Dixon wrote:
> > > pellmellwillynilly@hotmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
> Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to be
> told that?

"Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to
be told that? "

Reply: BTW, I noted "TMJ imbalance" in my post, not simply "TMJ."

Tim,
Thanks for your input.

TMJ refers to the temporomandibular joint.  In normal anatomy there are
2 of them.

As I understand it, when there is pain associated with one or both of
these joints or the surrounding anatomy necessary to effect normal jaw
function (like chewing, speaking, yawning, etc.),  this indicates a
problem that may (or may not)  be diagnosed as a TMJ disorder or TM
Disorder (TMD).

I have heard many terms tossed around loosely when describing pain
associated with the TMJ and/or surrounding anatomy like:

TMJ syndrome, TM disorder, TMJ disorder, TMJ pain, TM pain, TM
problems, TMJ imbalance ... to name a few

"TMJ syndrome" may be more appropriate when speaking about these in a
collective sense.

Tim, It is my understanding that a professional (MD or dentist) can
often make a diagnosis that identifies the source of pain, and whether
the problem may be labeled as a "TMD" and/or "TMJ disorder."

Is this wrong?  This is what I gather anyway, from information shown on
the ADA website (see below):

 (Overview) (From ADA website)

More than fifteen percent of American adults suffer from chronic facial
pain. Some common symptoms include pain in or around the ear,
tenderness of the jaw, clicking or popping noises when opening the
mouth, or even headaches and neck aches.

Two joints and several jaw muscles make it possible to open and close
the mouth. They work together when you chew, speak, and swallow. These
structures include muscles and ligaments, as well as the jaw bone, the
mandible (lower jaw) with two joints, the TMJ's.

The TM joint is one of the most complex joints in the body. Located on
each side of the head, these joints work together and can make many
different movements, including a combination of rotating and
translocational (gliding) action, used when chewing and speaking.

Several muscles help open and close the mouth. They control the lower
jaw (mandible) as it moves forward, backward, and side-to-side. Both TM
joints are involved in these movements. Each TM joint has a disc
between the ball and socket (see diagram). The disc cushions the load
while enabling the jaw to open widely and perform rotating and
translocational movements. Any problem that prevents this complex
system of muscles, ligaments, discs and bones from working together
properly may result in a painful TMJ disorder.

Diagnosis & Treatment
A dentist can help identify the source of the pain with a thorough exam
and appropriate x-rays. Often, it's a sinus, toothache or an early
stage of periodontal disease. But for some pain, the cause is not so
easily diagnosed. The pain could be related to the facial muscles, the
jaw or temporomandibular joint, located in the front of the ear.
Treatments for this pain may include stress reducing exercises, muscle
relaxants, or wearing a mouth protector to prevent teeth grinding.
They've been successful for many and your dentist can recommend which
is best for you.

Several conditions may be related to TMD, but they can be quite varied,
and they are often difficult to pinpoint. TM disorders can result when
the jaw muscles or jaw joints are affected.

The joint, ligaments, and muscles used for chewing and grinding food
may all be involved. In some cases, it is not possible to clearly
determine the causes. In some complex cases, where more than one doctor
is involved, it may be difficult to get a consensus on treatment.

Some TM problems result from arthritis, dislocation, and injury. All of
these conditions can cause pain and dysfunction. Muscles that move the
joints are also subject to injury and disease. Injuries to the jaw,
head or neck, and diseases such as arthritis, might result in some TM
problems. Other factors that relate to the way the teeth fit
together-the bite-may cause some types of TMD. Stress is thought to
be a factor. TMD affects women of childbearing age more than men, or
older men and women.

There are several ways the TMJ disorders may be treated. Your dentist
will recommend what type of treatment is needed for your particular
problem or recommend that you be referred to a specialist. Treatment
may involve a series of steps. The step-by-step plan is in your best
interest because only minor, relatively non-invasive treatment may be
needed.

Diagnosis is an important step before treatment. Part of your clinical
examination includes checking the joints and muscles for tenderness,
clicking, popping or difficulty moving. Your complete medical history
may be reviewed, so it is important to keep your dental office record
up-to-date. Your dentist may take x-rays and may make a "cast" of
your teeth to see how your bite fits together. Your dentist may also
request specialized x-rays for the TM joints. Depending on your case,
the dentist may refer you to a physician or another dentist.
Tim Dixon - 29 Dec 2005 22:22 GMT
Nonsense from the ADA does not interest me in the least.
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 04:53 GMT
[cut]

> Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to be
> told that?

Sue is on some kind of a campaign.
JanD - 30 Dec 2005 18:59 GMT
> [cut]
>>
>> Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to be
>> told that?
>
> Sue is on some kind of a campaign.

Oh <GASP>

Are you and brother afraid she is cutting in on your stock of trade?
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 19:14 GMT
> > [cut]
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Are you and brother afraid she is cutting in on your stock of trade?

Thanks for pointing out how our copycat is at work.  Kind of a stupid
comment you made, don't you think?  (Please do not answer the question.)

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/stock.html
JanD - 30 Dec 2005 21:50 GMT
You have some nerve speaking of a campaign.

Get over your UNREAL hatred.

>> > [cut]
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/stock.html 
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 22:12 GMT
> You have some nerve speaking of a campaign.
>
> Get over your UNREAL hatred.

[cut]
One day I hope to discover your real-life identity.  You are some piece
of work, whoever you are.
Whamatus_B - 31 Dec 2005 19:29 GMT
>[cut]
>>
>> Sue TMJ is not a dignosis of anything.  How many times do you need to be
>> told that?
>
>Sue is on some kind of a campaign.

I like that "dignosis" thingy.

Not sure why they are diggin up noses.

Lookin' fer buggers ?

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 29 Dec 2005 22:12 GMT
 It would be  great if
> craniosacral therapy  could relieve the pain associated with TMJ
> imbalance.  It certainly is non-invasive and sounds great if it helps!

> -Sue

Mighty big IF.

On one hand there is a non-invasive treatment that works about
80% of the time (I think it's probably higher *if* the patient
really works through any initial adjustments and wears the NTI).

On the other there is a non-invasive treatment that *might* help.

Youse takes yore pick,

Dartos
Sue - 29 Dec 2005 22:56 GMT
> It would be  great if
> > craniosacral therapy  could relieve the pain associated with TMJ
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Dartos

Dartos,
If the NTI works for your patients, that is great!  But what about
those that do not respond?

What about trying conjunctive therapy?    For example,  some people may
not respond well to either therapy when administered alone, but they
may have a good response when these are administered in conjunction
with one another.

Just an idea,

Sue
Tim Dixon - 29 Dec 2005 22:58 GMT
>> It would be  great if
>> > craniosacral therapy  could relieve the pain associated with TMJ
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Just an idea,

Its called refer out.
Sue - 29 Dec 2005 23:43 GMT
> >> It would be  great if
> >> > craniosacral therapy  could relieve the pain associated with TMJ
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Its called refer out.

Actually most of the dentists that I know in real life (several of my
college friends) do not want to have anything to do with treating this
"syndrome."    Most say it is tricky business.  I have never asked them
if they know about the NTI though.

-Sue
PS I was not asking them because I was seeking treatment.. I was just
asking out of interest.  It is a chronic condition that can be very
debilitating.
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 02:20 GMT
[cut]

> Actually most of the dentists that I know in real life (several of my
> college friends) do not want to have anything to do with treating this
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> asking out of interest.  It is a chronic condition that can be very
> debilitating.

Of course they want nothing to do with this "syndrome".  There *is no
such syndrome* for them to be involved in treating.  

Webby
Dartos - 30 Dec 2005 14:33 GMT
> Actually most of the dentists that I know in real life (several of my
> college friends) do not want to have anything to do with treating this
> "syndrome."    Most say it is tricky business.  I have never asked them
> if they know about the NTI though.

Then it is very likely that they have not ever used an NTI.  It
changes the nature of jaw problems to the complexity of shooting
fish in a barrel (for *most* cases).

> -Sue
> PS I was not asking them because I was seeking treatment.. I was just
> asking out of interest.  It is a chronic condition that can be very
> debilitating.

Depends on the case and what treatment is offered and accepted.

Dartos
Whamatus_B - 31 Dec 2005 19:13 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com>  kinda wrote
>> Just a bad idea,

>Its called refer out.

Thought it was 'reefer', as in madness.

Could be wrong, or mebbe stoned.
Doesn't matter.

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 29 Dec 2005 23:46 GMT
Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.

Number 2, I'm not a very good snake oil salesman and I can't spend
20 hours a week counseling these folks on their mental state.

Number 3, *Most* of the patients who claim the NTI isn't working
aren't really trying to wear it.  If they aren't going to be cooperative
to the simplest treatment offered, how am I going to get them to buy
into anything else?

Dartos

> Dartos,
> If the NTI works for your patients, that is great!  But what about
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Sue
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 00:19 GMT
> Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
> TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> >
> > Sue

Dartos,

I am so sorry. I work in research where we process many ideas (MOST are
not ready for direct application). I get way too caught up in
theoretical discussion.

I was thinking that patients in real pain (enough to seek treatment)
would be compliant to treatments offerred and receptive to other
suggestions if their compliance was not working.  Apparently many are
not compliant and many are not that receptive either.  I have no idea
what it is like to be in the doctor's shoes.

Also I was not thinking about the implications of suggesting
"conjunctive treatments" that have likely not been clinically validated
either... this may pose a risk for you.

You know what works best with your patients.

Sincerely,

-Sue
JanD - 30 Dec 2005 00:24 GMT
> Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
> TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.

Some people reading this newagroups might be helped.

> Number 2, I'm not a very good snake oil salesman and I can't spend
> 20 hours a week counseling these folks on their mental state.

Nobody is talking about snake oil. Why are you?
People reading this newsgroups may be interested.
There are other people besides your patients.

> Number 3, *Most* of the patients who claim the NTI isn't working
> aren't really trying to wear it.  If they aren't going to be cooperative
> to the simplest treatment offered, how am I going to get them to buy
> into anything else?
>
> Dartos

No one is asking you to try and get them to buy anything else. Suggests were
politely made.
Why can't you just respond in kind?

>> Dartos,
>> If the NTI works for your patients, that is great!  But what about
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Sue
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 00:56 GMT
> > Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
> > TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> >>
> >> Sue

Jan,

Thanks, but it is ok. I can understand Dartos' frustration.  It is
really easy for others (like myself) to sit around and talk about
hypothetical treatments, as though it is not really a big deal.

This is a big deal. It is a big deal to the patient and a big deal to
the provider.  It is a challenge that I cannot understand.  Simply
talking about something and actually being the one that is daily
responsible for these decisions, and/or being the patient that lives
this daily does not compare... not even close.

I forget this often and I can be very offensive without realizing it.

I disagree on one little point that Dartos made however... I do not
think that suggesting craniosacral therapy, relaxation methods at
bedtime equate to counseling a patient on his/her mental status.  But
that is just my opinion about that sort of stuff. I would not be
offended in the least by such suggestions (as a patient). I would not
assume the doctor was trying to evaluate my mental status, but that is
just me.

Dartos knows his patients and has an understanding how they might react
to such suggestions.

It may be best to drop this discussion, as it is only theoretical
anyway.  
 
-Sue
letsconnect - 30 Dec 2005 01:10 GMT
> I disagree on one little point that Dartos made however... I do not
> think that suggesting craniosacral therapy, relaxation methods at
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> assume the doctor was trying to evaluate my mental status, but that is
> just me.

I don't think any patient would feel offended if a dentist made the
suggestion that a relaxation tape before bedtime may help reduce
nighttime grinding or clenching (which is the original point I was
trying to make, rather than advocating a "cure for TMJ disorders" or
anything of that order). Though not knowing the demographics, I may
well be wrong, and people in certain geographical areas may well be
offended by such a suggestion. I wouldn't have thought so in this day
and age, but one never knows.
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 01:37 GMT
> > I disagree on one little point that Dartos made however... I do not
> > think that suggesting craniosacral therapy, relaxation methods at
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> offended by such a suggestion. I wouldn't have thought so in this day
> and age, but one never knows.

Amber and Jan,

I am not sure, but maybe this is more of a female thing.  Not to
generalize too much... but women seem to be continually marketed
relaxation methods (yoga, meditation,  spa massage, chammomile teas,
etc. etc. ad nauseum)

It is in our faces all the time so we may not flinch if a dentist
suggested something like that...  it is almost like concerted
relaxation must be scheduled into every woman's routine in order to
maintain  health (as per the constant media barrage, anyway)

Just a thought.

OOps... time to RUSH to my yoga class!  BYE!

(just kidding)

Sue
PS I actually think that fitting in relaxation is good for ANYONE
(TMDer or not), but not everyone is offerred that luxury, to the same
degree
Whamatus_B - 31 Dec 2005 19:24 GMT
>I am not sure, but maybe this is more of a female thing.  Not to
>generalize too much... but women seem to be continually marketed
>relaxation methods (yoga, meditation,  spa massage, chammomile teas,
>etc. etc. ad nauseum)

When all they need is a good manly f*kin' right ?

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 30 Dec 2005 14:45 GMT
Hey, I never said one cross word.  I was not offended by your
reply.  If I am angry with you, I'll let you know.

Most patients who come into the office and say they have "TMJ"
have been 'doctored' by several dentists and physicians already.
Everyone has told them that their problem is mysterious and difficult to
treat.  They have had CT scans, MRI's, multiple medications, many
have seen/are seeing a chiropractor, etc.

In walks a small town dentist who says they can feel a lot better by
just wearing an inexpensive piece of plastic when they sleep, and
sirens go off in their heads and they don't even want to find out
if it works.

That goes double for migraine patients!

There are even some patients who use their malady as a crutch through
life and don't want it to really go away.

There is the frustration.

Dartos

> Thanks, but it is ok. I can understand Dartos' frustration.  It is
> really easy for others (like myself) to sit around and talk about
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>  
> -Sue
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 17:00 GMT
> Hey, I never said one cross word.  I was not offended by your
> reply.  If I am angry with you, I'll let you know.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> >
> > -Sue

Dartos,

I misinterpeted.  Thanks for explaining. You also helped me to better
understand Webby's post.

More later,
-Sue
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 17:01 GMT
> Hey, I never said one cross word.  I was not offended by your
> reply.  If I am angry with you, I'll let you know.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> >
> > -Sue

Dartos,

Is the NTI expensive?  Do some balk at the price?  Or is it mainly a
compliance issue?

Do you really believe that some want to remain sick?

I don't get it.

I was making some basic assumptions about patients. I assumed that most
patients seeking diagnosis and treatment for a problem have a genuine
desire to help themselves and to achieve wellness.

I was joking when I wrote TM-unhausen ... but maybe for some of these
pts, this is a factitious illness.

Sue
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 17:06 GMT
> > Hey, I never said one cross word.  I was not offended by your
> > reply.  If I am angry with you, I'll let you know.
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>
> Sue

Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is supposed
to mean to the readers in smd.

Webby
Amatus Cremona - 30 Dec 2005 18:08 GMT
> Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is supposed
> to mean to the readers in smd.

More likely, she just needs to GO AWAY.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> > Hey, I never said one cross word.  I was not offended by your
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> Webby
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 18:20 GMT
> > Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is supposed
> > to mean to the readers in smd.
>
> More likely, she just needs to GO AWAY.

I was more of a rhetorical question and I can't help but agree with the
sentiment of Amatus.

Webby

> /
> >
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> >
> > Webby
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 18:27 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-7EE48B.10201730122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,

> > > Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is supposed
> > > to mean to the readers in smd.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Webby
[cut]

There is more than one "Sue" too.  If you read carefully, you can easily
see when the shifts change hands.

Webby
JanD - 30 Dec 2005 19:06 GMT
Oh, I am sooooo surprised! Suckup Suckupsuckuosuckuosuckupsuckup

>> > Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is
>> > supposed
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
>> >
>> > Webby
JanD - 30 Dec 2005 19:05 GMT
Maybe that is YOU?

>> Maybe Sue needs to define/explain exactly what "TM-unhausen" is supposed
>> to mean to the readers in smd.
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>>
>> Webby
Dartos - 01 Jan 2006 14:47 GMT
> Is the NTI expensive?  Do some balk at the price?  Or is it mainly a
> compliance issue?

Wide range of fees.  It's not that the NTI costs much by medical/dental
standards.  It's more that patients see a little piece of plastic that
they feel should cost $1 and really don't believe it can help them more
than the thousands of dollars they have already spent on worthless
treatments.

> Do you really believe that some want to remain sick?

Some (not many) sure don't want to let anything make them better.

> I don't get it.
>
> I was making some basic assumptions about patients. I assumed that most
> patients seeking diagnosis and treatment for a problem have a genuine
> desire to help themselves and to achieve wellness.

For most patients, yes.  But it is somewhat true for all of
medicine/dentistry.

How many patients with decay problems won't give up soda pop?

How many patients with gum disease won't get 3 month cleanings,
much less floss every day?

How many clenchers won't wear their NTI every night?

How many type II diabetics really exercise and change their diet?

How many patients with high blood pressure, obesity, high cholesterol,
etc., etc., etc. won't take active roles in controling their disease?

Old habits die hard.

Dartos
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 02:26 GMT
> Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
> TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> >
> > Sue

In real life, there are people who enjoy "having TMJ" and if they "have
TMJ Syndrome", that's might be even better!  

Not everyone wants to get better and not everyone is sick who thinks
they are or better yet: who says they are.  SO .... maybe you need to
try to figure out what it is you are missing.

Webby
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 02:39 GMT
In article
<tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,

> > Number 1, I'm not out trying to save every person in the world with
> > TMJ pain, headaches, etc.  I'm trying to help my patients.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Webby

And don't forget this important matter:  ***not everyone with
"TM-something" has "TM-anything" and not everyone offered all those
therapeutic options needs even a single one let alone some or worst of
all ... all of them.  

Webby

Webby
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 03:30 GMT
> In article
> <tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Webby

TM-unchausen's Syndrome by Proxy?

-Sue
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 04:51 GMT
> > In article
> > <tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> -Sue

I am not humored.  And I rather doubt many other are either.  

Webby
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 15:47 GMT
> > > In article
> > > <tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> Webby

Webby,

Only a joke.  Sorry for the confusion.

-Sue
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 17:04 GMT
> > > > In article
> > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> -Sue

There is confusion and  I don't see the point in making such a "joke".  
Maybe you can explain your joke.

Webby
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 05:38 GMT
> > In article
> > <tmjiatroepidemic-A3B8EE.18261529122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
>
> -Sue

And by the way ... I have absolutely no idea what it is you are trying
to convey.
Dartos - 30 Dec 2005 17:04 GMT
It wouldn't be 'by Proxy' unless your mom (or another person) is causing
your problems.

Dartos

> TM-unchausen's Syndrome by Proxy?
>
> -Sue
Sue - 30 Dec 2005 17:28 GMT
> It wouldn't be 'by Proxy' unless your mom (or another person) is causing
> your problems.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > -Sue

What about iatrogenic cause.... could that in a way... be considered by
proxy?

-Sue
The Webby - 30 Dec 2005 17:31 GMT
> > It wouldn't be 'by Proxy' unless your mom (or another person) is causing
> > your problems.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -Sue

Sue, what ***IS*** your point??????  I can *imagine* all sorts of
possibilities, but why not just explain your purpose with all this?

Webby
Wham_B - 31 Dec 2005 22:21 GMT
Damn, I nominate you Dartos.

You carpet-muncher you.

>It wouldn't be 'by Proxy' unless your mom (or another person) is causing
>your problems.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>
>> -Sue

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 01 Jan 2006 17:45 GMT
Takes one to know one.

Dartos

> Damn, I nominate you Dartos.
>
> You carpet-muncher you.

>>It wouldn't be 'by Proxy' unless your mom (or another person) is causing
>>your problems.
>>
>>Dartos
>>
>>>TM-unchausen's Syndrome by Proxy?
W_U_B - 01 Jan 2006 22:07 GMT
Is carabelli giving you lessons ?

Must be costly, but seems to be workin'...

>Takes one to know one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> You carpet-muncher you.

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 02 Jan 2006 15:03 GMT
I almost had to call him for advice.  Some statements
kind of box you in with no easy means of escape.

;-)
D

> Is carabelli giving you lessons ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Whamatus_B - 31 Dec 2005 17:49 GMT
>More stuff.

ITYM more sh*t

>TMJ imbalance and autonomic disturbances (good reading, IMO):
>
>w3x.verticalsmiles.gov

Your *opinion* is not worth the electrons that you waste.
The ANS has nothing to do with skeletal muscle function. Period.

You are a very lonely person.
    Get a dog.

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 31 Dec 2005 21:23 GMT
> >More stuff.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

"The ANS has nothing to do with skeletal muscle function. Period."

Reply. You must be joking.  But if you are serious, then you understand
less about human physiology than I realized.

Your black and white thinking may make you a fair tooth mechanic and
cut-and-dry diagnostician of tooth-problems, but you are living in the
dark ages when it comes to human physiology and health medicine.

-Sue

Gaaaaawd... Just Think.  Think a little bit before you make a stupid
broad sweeping statement.  You are a health professional for God's
sake.  I can't stand this anymore.  Think..

...Parkinson's Disease, Dystonia, Epilepsy, Infantile spasm syndrome...
etc etc etc etc etc etc

These are just some obvious examples that would clue-in even the
average  highschool student.
Tim Dixon - 31 Dec 2005 23:08 GMT
"Sue" <chrlie699@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136064218.45894d5.5320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

cut
Wham_B - 01 Jan 2006 20:05 GMT
>> >More stuff.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> You are a very lonely person.
>>     Get a dog.

>> --
>> Whamatus

>"The ANS has nothing to do with skeletal muscle function. Period."
>
>Reply. You must be joking.  But if you are serious, then you understand
>less about human physiology than I realized.

I know more than you. That is obvious even to the lamest reader.
C-V is sensory only. You should research what C-VII is involved in.

>Your black and white thinking may make you a fair tooth mechanic and
>cut-and-dry diagnostician of tooth-problems, but you are living in the
>dark ages when it comes to human physiology and health medicine.

Cute.
I am a molar mechanic, and tooth carpenter extraordinaire.
I also took Neuro-Anatomy and made an 'A'.

Your, so called *credentials* have much to do with
abnormal ovine/human relations.
IIRC you said something to the effect of:
(paraphrased)

"I sleep with sheep"
While mildly poetic, such a statement is proof of your
abnormal deviant behavior.
Not to mention your 'savior syndrome'

>-Sue
>
>Gaaaaawd... Just Think.  Think a little bit before you make a stupid
>broad sweeping statement.  You are a health professional for God's
>sake.  I can't stand this anymore.  Think..

You can't stand it anymore ?  Now we are making some progress.
Leave SMD and all your troubles will magically melt away.

Your calumniative behavior suggests a deeper psychosis
than was evident at first glance.

>...Parkinson's Disease, Dystonia, Epilepsy, Infantile spasm syndrome...
>etc etc etc etc etc etc

CNS disorders.
The cranial nerves are part of the *peripheral* nervous system.
Duh.
Now who is the *stupid* one.
BTW "ignorant = unlearned"; "stupid = inability to learn"

>These are just some obvious examples that would clue-in even the
>average  highschool student.

That's hilarious.
Where did you get your advanced education again ?
Nevermind, it was Sears & Roebuck, almost forgot.

Oh wait, you didn't even graduate from college, right ?
Couldn't cut the mustard, eh ?

Go buy a dog. Wait! for you it would be a ewe, right ?

GFYSB.

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
letsconnect - 01 Jan 2006 20:25 GMT
> I know more than you. That is obvious even to the lamest reader.
> C-V is sensory only.
>
> I also took Neuro-Anatomy and made an 'A'.

Only an 'A'? You deserve a Nobel prize for your discovery!
W_U_B - 01 Jan 2006 22:23 GMT
>> I know more than you. That is obvious even to the lamest reader.
>> C-V is sensory only.
>>
>> I also took Neuro-Anatomy and made an 'A'.
>
>Only an 'A'? You deserve a Nobel prize for your discovery!

And you deserve an 'F' for applying without the pre-requisites.

What a maroon.

--
Whamatus
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
letsconnect - 02 Jan 2006 11:17 GMT
> >> I know more than you. That is obvious even to the lamest reader.
> >> C-V is sensory only.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What a maroon.

I think I'd be feeling bitter too if I had made an amazing discovery
that challenges all our basic assumptions about the nervous system and
the world didn't take any notice.

Functional Neuroanatomy: Text and Atlas
Adel K. Afifi, Ronald A. Bergman
1998
McGraw-Hill
ISBN: 0070015890

"The trigeminal nerve is a robust structure on the ventrolateral
surface of of the pons. Two components of the nerve are usually
visible: a larger (portio major) sensory and a smaller (portio minor)
motor component." (p. 53)

"The trigeminal nerve has two roots: a smaller (portio minor) efferent
root and a larger (portio major) afferent root. The motor root is
composed of as many as 14 separately originating rootlets that are
joined about 1 cm from the pons...  The efferent root supplies the
muscles of mastication and the tensor tympani, the tensor palati, the
myelohyoid, and the anterior belly of the digastric." (p. 171)
Amatus Cremona - 02 Jan 2006 18:04 GMT
> "The trigeminal nerve has two roots: a smaller (portio minor) efferent
> root and a larger (portio major) afferent root. The motor root is
> composed of as many as 14 separately originating rootlets that are
> joined about 1 cm from the pons...  The efferent root supplies the
> muscles of mastication and the tensor tympani, the tensor palati, the
> myelohyoid, and the anterior belly of the digastric." (p. 171)

Read along a little further, please.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> >> I know more than you. That is obvious even to the lamest reader.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> muscles of mastication and the tensor tympani, the tensor palati, the
> myelohyoid, and the anterior belly of the digastric." (p. 171)
letsconnect - 02 Jan 2006 18:49 GMT
> > "The trigeminal nerve has two roots: a smaller (portio minor) efferent
> > root and a larger (portio major) afferent root. The motor root is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Read along a little further, please.

"The motor nucleus receives fibers from the cerebral cortex
(corticobulbar) and the sensory nuclei of the trigeminal nerve. The
cortical projections to trigeminal motorneurons are bilateral and
symmetric via direct corticobulbar and indirect corticoreticulobulbar
fibers. Lesions affecting the motor nucleus or efferent root result in
paralysis of the lower motor neuron type of the muscles supplied by
this root." (pp 171-173).

I don't want to get into conspiracy theories, but would it be possible
that some powerful organization (I won't mention the name here) is
trying to keep your sissy's findings under wraps?

> >> >> I know more than you. That is obviou