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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2005More on the topic of "TMJ"
"Sdores" <sdores@bellsouth.net> wrote: > Webby, would you please tell me what your posting of page numbers are from? > I think it's from the book I have read you talking about but to be honest I > didn't keep up with the threads. I peek in and read what is of interest to > me and though I have been diagnosed with TMJ long ago due to a double > fractured jaw I haven't done anything about that as it only bothers me > occasionally but it hasn't for a while though the joint on the left side > does hurt me lately but I think it's from not having my bridge. Maybe I am > wrong about that. I would love your input if you wouldn't mind. UM MOM > Susan Susan, the page numbers are from "The TMJ Iatroepidemic". As for your jaw that was previously fractured, are you saying that certain recommendations were made to you a long time ago and you decided against doing anything more? Or ... are you saying something else? I what way does your jaw bother you at times? How can I be of help to you? I'm delighted to help in whatever way I can. You know, you might want to take this to alt.support.jaw-disorders too. Some of the regular posters here in smd monitor and participate in that group too. So, what can I do to help? Webby I was told I had TMJ but nothing to do about it. It was a few years ago. I get a clicking from it at time, sometime it hurts even to the touch, and just so you know I can move my jaw right to left further than I should be able to. I had to do exercises to relearn how to open my mouth because I was wired a bit longer than the norm I was told. I have no feelings in the lower right side of my jaw do to nerve damage from the accident. I took 24 stitches in my chin because, sorry for the graphics, the bone that broke actually went through my chin. I knocked over two teeth with the other part of the bone, which amazingly I still have intact. I am not sure what I am asking of you to be honest. I don't know much of anything about this. UM MOM Susan > "Sdores" <sdores@bellsouth.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Webby > I was told I had TMJ but nothing to do about it. It was a few years ago. I > get a clicking from it at time, sometime it hurts even to the touch, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > asking of you to be honest. I don't know much of anything about this. UM > MOM Susan Well, I think you should be glad you have a good useable jaw with little fallout after your accident. The last thing you need to do is to fiddle around with something that is serving you well. Perfection isn't realistic. As for the clicking, I think most of the dentists here in smd would advise you to forget about it. And, as for telling you that you had "TMJ"... I think you should forget about that too. What I think you might want to do is ask about how an NTI might be used for your situation. The pain you wrote about in the left side (see text below), might indicate something that an NTI might address. The mistake many people make is very understandable. If a person is told there is some "condition" identified, people think there's something that can *and* should be done about it. This just isn't always the case. So my advice, even though you didn't specifically ask for it, is this: Caution!!! Good luck to you, Susan, and I'm sure glad you came out of your accident as well as you did. Webby > > "Sdores" <sdores@bellsouth.net> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > > Webby Thanks Webby, I had this plastic thing (I think it was plastic) after my jaw was unwired. It was mostly given to me because I keep my mouth tight and grind when I sleep which started when I was locked up. It hurt badly when I would naturally open my teeth when wired. This is something I still do during the day too when I have me dentures in. I only have 6 teeth on my lower left side so do they make these for someone with so few teeth? I have to agree, with the seriousness of this accident and damage, I can't complain too much. I just want to feel well enough, long enough to get my new bridge and dental work done. Thanks again, UM MOM Susan >> I was told I had TMJ but nothing to do about it. It was a few years ago. >> I [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >> > >> > Webby Hello Susan, Having personal experience with wired jaws and fractured facial bones, I understand what you're saying about clenching while wired shut. This subject is, IMHO, worthy of discussion between the dentists who prescribe NTI rather than full coverage "splints" for the management of parafunction and the TMJ. Webby > Thanks Webby, I had this plastic thing (I think it was plastic) after my jaw > was unwired. It was mostly given to me because I keep my mouth tight and [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > >> > > >> > Webby Thanks, as soon as I can get in to see mine I will ask about this. You have been very helpful and very nice. UM MOM Susan > Hello Susan, > [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] >> >> > >> >> > Webby If you have other questions related to this topic, I hope you will feel comfortable tossing them into smd for discussion. Best wishes (and you're very welcome), Webby > Thanks, as soon as I can get in to see mine I will ask about this. You have > been very helpful and very nice. UM MOM Susan [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Webby [cut] > This subject is, IMHO, worthy of discussion between the dentists who > prescribe NTI rather than full coverage "splints" for the management of > parafunction and the TMJ. Ever since spending enough time researching and debating with Jim Boyd about this topic (enough to understand it properly), I have felt bad for anyone with their jaws wired shut or anyone with extremely limited vertical opening. As these patients would tend to spend most of their time clenching very hard. Headaches and facial pain would then become serious problems.  Signature/ Amatus / > Hello Susan, > [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] >> >> > >> >> > Webby > > This subject is, IMHO, worthy of discussion between the dentists who > > prescribe NTI rather than full coverage "splints" for the management of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > opening. As these patients would tend to spend most of their time clenching > very hard. Headaches and facial pain would then become serious problems. The impact of living with extremely limited vertical opening, with or without excursive or protrusive/retrusive movements, is difficult to describe. Not only is it difficult to describe, it is perhaps even more so, difficult to understand. A sense of claustrophobia becomes the new normal. A fear of suffocation is real -- and a sense of simply being trapped in a place where certain pains never go away is also the new normal. In my own case, muscle strength was lost decades ago. And one could ague that clenching and muscle strength equal the strength of the problem. I don't know that I would be able to agree with that. And because of this, I wonder if we are still missing some pieces to this puzzle. Weakness of muscles while forced into an extremely limited range of motion (ROM) may be an area lacking in research. Muscles functioning at 100% much of the time while working within a limited ROM never really rest. While bad outcomes in healthcare are most undesirable, we can learn a great deal from studying the undesirable events that follow. To miss out on that opportunity is an even greater price to pay. p. 325 Webby > / > > Hello Susan, [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > >> >> > > >> >> > Webby Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which have fewer contractile fibers. Therefore, even at the same strength of fiber contraction, the total muscle contraction would be with a total of less force. I envision such a shortened muscle being able to clench habitually for hours at a time, and creating muscle pain, while never registering much force on a strain gauge. Signature/ Amatus / > >> > This subject is, IMHO, worthy of discussion between the dentists who [quoted text clipped - 185 lines] >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Webby > Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from > not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > habitually for hours at a time, and creating muscle pain, while never > registering much force on a strain gauge. It is loss of muscle strength *and* muscle atrophy. There are many unresolved questions about what caused the near-sudden loss of muscle strength. The strength required to open vertically is not something that a person with normal jaw function considers in the course of normal daily function. In order to keep the jaw closed (with constant effort to remember "teeth apart"), it is a constant awareness of the muscles' work involved. Strengthening closing muscles is an interesting but dreadful experience for someone in this situation. Strengthening opening muscles is no less miserable. And so ... some people just count their lucky stars to have what they have left. Obviously, some days are better than others. Webby > / > > [quoted text clipped - 187 lines] > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Webby > It is loss of muscle strength *and* muscle atrophy. There are many > unresolved questions about what caused the near-sudden loss of muscle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to remember "teeth apart"), it is a constant awareness of the muscles' > work involved. I visualize shortened closing muscles which habitually clench and overpower the opening muscles so that they cannot make much progress. Of course, there is the physical limitation of the mechanical joints themselves. Signature/ Amatus / > >> Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) [quoted text clipped - 245 lines] >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Webby > > It is loss of muscle strength *and* muscle atrophy. There are many > > unresolved questions about what caused the near-sudden loss of muscle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the opening muscles so that they cannot make much progress. Of course, > there is the physical limitation of the mechanical joints themselves. No matter how much we attempt to discuss this subject, it's largely academic and few have ever had interest in the details. Webby [cut] I'm interested for the record. I find this information you are talking about very interesting. Thanks, UM MOM Susan >> > It is loss of muscle strength *and* muscle atrophy. There are many >> > unresolved questions about what caused the near-sudden loss of muscle [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > [cut] >Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from >not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >habitually for hours at a time, and creating muscle pain, while never >registering much force on a strain gauge. Disagree. Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. Think of curling a 50 lb. dumbell, where is your greatest strength ? (not that *you* could lift one <hehe>) Hint it's not at the bottom or even midway. -- Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. Hi George, You are referring to muscles which are shorter due to normal anatomy ? ? I am referring to muscles which have atrophied due to lack of use and have remodeled to a shorter overall length than normal development. Shorter and fewer spindles and contractile fibers. If you think I am looking at this wrong, I would like to discuss it further. Signature/ Amatus / > >>Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > > Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Take out the G'RBAGE > > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the muscles that control mandibular function as Boyd describes. (As I understand, this includes bruxism and grinding due to poor parasympathetic tone, thus affecting muscle relaxation... an essential component in normal chewing function). Therefore the intial remodeling that occurs in this disorder would be muscle hypertrophy due to overactivity of the sympathetic system (and norepinperhine release). However prolonged parafunction (especially when combined with a misaligned bite) also results in inflammation. This causes release of proinflammatory cytokines that affect remodeling as well. These cytokines (tnf-alpha, some of the interleukins and others) are associated with cell apoptosis, loss of muscle spindles and muscle "atrophy" as Amatus describes. In addition (if this is anything like the progression of remodeling and deterioration of the heart muscle in heart failure), I would guess that matrix metalloproteinases are also attacking the collagen matrix within the affected muscles... further breaking down the muscle. -Sue > > > Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. > > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > -Sue Is this a hypothetical case? If so, with what history would this patient present? Or is the theory intended to apply in some general sense to some particular patient-group? Webby Sue, what is your position with the TMJ Association? Webby > > > Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. > > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > -Sue >Sue, what is your position with the TMJ Association? >Webby Usually on her knees. -- Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Sue, what is your position with the TMJ Association? >>Webby > > Usually on her knees. I think we should out and out ask Sue if she has anything to do with the TMJ Association or not. I think she does. In article <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, > Sue, what is your position with the TMJ Association? [cut] Sue, what do you have to do with the TMJ Association or the people who are associated with it? Webby > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Webby I find it interesting that three times now this has been mentioned in this thread that she can't keep out of, and yet she completely ignores this..hmmmmm wonder why that is... >> In article >> <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >thread that she can't keep out of, and yet she completely ignores >this..hmmmmm wonder why that is... Maybe it's not the Association, just the TMJ a.s. -- Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > In article > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Webby Webby, I missed your question. I am not a member of the TMJ Association. As far as I am concerned, my relation or non-relation to the TMJ association is immaterial, but there must be a reason for your question. Why do you ask? TIA, Sue > > In article > > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Sue The TMJ Association does not have any members. Why I ask is not immaterial. Webby > > > In article > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Webby Webby, Maybe there should be an association. That way those that suffer from TMJ may have some support in their corner when it comes to insurance claims and obtaining monies for research etc. Have you ever entertained the idea of trying to start something up? -Sue > > > > In article > > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > -Sue No. Not me. Webby > > > > > In article > > > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > No. Not me. > Webby Do you know of someone that is in the process of doing this? I am curious as to why you mentioned the topic if there is no TMJ Association that exists ( I presume by your comments anyway). Is there a similar group that exists to represent TMJ syndrome sufferers? Thank you, Sue > > > > > > In article > > > > > > <tmjiatroepidemic-28B04E.08072221122005@news-lb-02.socal.rr.com>, [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Thank you, > Sue I get up very early in the morning. Webby >I get up very early in the morning. > >Webby Still getting the worm ? <couldn't resist> -- Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >I get up very early in the morning. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com That's my job; so I better. Webby > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the > muscles that control mandibular function as Boyd describes. (As I > understand, this includes bruxism and grinding due to poor > parasympathetic tone, thus affecting muscle relaxation... an essential > component in normal chewing function). Where does Dr. Boyd use the term "parafunctional overuse"? i.e., cite your reference and "bruxism and grinding due to poor parasympathetic tone, thus affecting muscle relaxation..." Where exactly did you read this or hear this? >> Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain >> associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where exactly did you read this or hear this? If you are paraphrasing something you think you heard you need to inform everyone thats exactly what you did. Boyd has never stated any of those things you are telling everyone he said or saying is his position. In fact you would be well advised Sue to keep Boyd's name out of your discussions unless you are going to quote him exactly, not putting your twisted twist on something you think you know something about. You need to immediately recant what you said, or I am going to suspect you as having an alterior motive for being here. > > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain > > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where exactly did you read this or hear this? Tim, I heard this on Dentaltown....Jim Boyd has a book on migriane headaches. I suffer from migraines (every so often.. not frequently). I took a look at his book online. I may be extrpaoloating some, based upon my limited knowledge of the nervous system. This was many months ago; I am only recounting from memory... so if I am wrong, please forgive me. I can look it up and verify if you wish. Note: However I do remember being surprised when learning about control of jaw function. I thought this was entirely a motor fuction. I did not realize that the autotomics came into play, as a reflex, in response to food. So in this regard, a balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic tone is very important. Overstimulation of the sympathetic system in comparison to the parsympathetic system would cause tightening and clenching (I believe). ... This is pure extrapolation based upon my limited knowledge of physiology. Gotta run to a meeting. Actually I am late!! Take Care & best regards, -Sue >> > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain >> > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I took a look at his book online. I may be extrpaoloating some, based > upon my limited knowledge of the nervous system. Oh you heard that on dentaltown huh? Well i urge you to do a search for the term "parafunctional overuse" and not only will you not find that Dr. Boyd ever used such a term, you will find that no-one else tthere has either. So you need to recant what you said. You are misinforming and passing around bad information. You don't have a single clue what it is you are talking about and your "extrpaoloating" does more harm than good. Why don't you stick to something you know a little bit about and leave what Dr. Boyd has to say about such things alone. > This was many months ago; I am only recounting from memory... so if I > am wrong, please forgive me. I can look it up and verify if you wish. You can't verify it because it doesn't exist. > Note: However I do remember being surprised when learning about > control of jaw function. I thought this was entirely a motor fuction. > I did not realize that the autotomics came into play, as a reflex, in > response to food. So in this regard, a balance between sympathetic and > parasympathetic tone is very important. ""autotomics" came into play, as a reflex, in response to food " What are you talking about?.Are you also suggesting this is something Dr. Boyd stated? > Overstimulation of the sympathetic system in comparison to the > parsympathetic system would cause tightening and clenching (I > believe). ... This is pure extrapolation based upon my limited > knowledge of physiology. Tightening of what? There you go again with your 'extrapolation' and talking about what you don't have a clue about. I'm only going to suggest this once Sue. You need to quit misquoting what you think Dr. Boyd said. You have no idea what you are about to get yourself into if you continue. You want to quote Dr. Boyd on something then you better quote it from a published reference that can be verified, and that means you *must* cite the exact reference.. Do you understand what I am telling you here Sue? Or is your purpose to misquote something into the record for the purpose of harming Dr. Boyd, NTI-TSS Inc. or any of it's affiliates? You need to think carefully about this Sue because there are a lot more eyes on you than you can imagine right now. > >> > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain > >> > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > this Sue because there are a lot more eyes on you than you can imagine right > now. Tim- You are entitled to your opinion. Yet might I remind you, I prefaced by post by stating: THEORY ONLY. People here are free to take or leave any information I state, just as anyone else's opinions and theories made here. That is the intention of discussion as I understand. If everybody knew the facts, then there would be no need to discuss anything. Take Care -Sue PS I have no ulterior motives as you describe Tim. I enjoy intelligent discussion and learning. I enjoy discussions that involve physiology, pathology, and concrete and theoretical ways of restoring health and well-being. Period. No money. No deals. Just discussion. > Tim- > > You are entitled to your opinion. Yet might I remind you, I prefaced > by post by stating: THEORY ONLY. No thats not what you did Sue, sure you threw that in there and then made some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. What if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? Everyone makes mistakes and she corrected it when you let her know. Aren't you being a bit harsh already? Have a happy healthy holiday. UM MOM Susan >> Tim- >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. What > if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? > Everyone makes mistakes and she corrected it when you let her know. > Aren't you being a bit harsh already? Have a happy healthy holiday. UM [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. What >> if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? No I am not being harsh. She shouldn't mix her "theory" with what Boyd does or doesn't say about something. It's bad information and useless information and can only serve one purpose, to confuse and misinform. She knows exactly what she is doing and so do I. Sue wrote: Note: However I do remember being surprised when learning about control of jaw function. I thought this was entirely a motor fuction. I did not realize that the autotomics came into play, as a reflex, in response to food. So in this regard, a balance between sympathetic and parasympathetic tone is very important. Tim wrote: ""autotomics" came into play, as a reflex, in response to food " What are you talking about?.Are you also suggesting this is something Dr. Boyd stated? Reply. No.I never stated that Boyd stated this. His book and otehr wirtings helped to broaden my perspective on mastication. I became then further interested in the autonomic balance and mastication because this ties into research on heart rate variability (which is of great interest re: heart failure progression). Evaluation of mastication-induced change in sympatho-vagal balance through spectral analysis of heart rate variability. Shiba Y, Nitta E, Hirono C, Sugita M, Iwasa Y. Department of Oral Physiology, Hiroshima University Faculty of Dentistry, Minami-Ku, Japan. yoshiba@hiroshima-u.ac.jp Mastication modulates the autonomic nervous activity of the digestive glands and the heart. The autonomic nervous balance is evaluated with spectral analysis of heart rate variability. In the present study, we investigated the effects of mastication of chewing gum base on heart rate variability to clarify the role of mastication in the sympatho-vagal balance for the regulation of the heart rate. Mastication of a chewing gum base stimulated the salivary secretion and shortened the R-R intervals in the electrocardiogram of healthy young subjects without swallowing of saliva at a fixed rate of respiration. Based on the analysis of heart rate variability, mastication increased the low-frequency band spectral power (LF), and decreased the high-frequency band spectral power (HF). The LF/HF was markedly increased by the mastication. Mastication enhances the sympathetic nervous activity and/or suppresses the parasympathetic nervous activity for the heart. Feeding behaviour with mastication might play a role in the modulation of the autonomic nervous activity. HOGWASH. YOU BETTER JUST KNOCK IT OFF SUE. > Sue wrote: > Note: However I do remember being surprised when learning about > control of jaw function. I thought this was entirely a motor fuction. > I did not realize that the autotomics came into play, as a reflex, in > response to food. So in this regard, a balance between sympathetic and > parasympathetic tone is very important. > Tim wrote: > ""autotomics" came into play, as a reflex, in response to food " What [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Reply. No.I never stated that Boyd stated this. His book and otehr > wirtings helped to broaden my perspective on mastication. YOU PERSPECTIVE IS SKEWED, OFF-VECTOR, AND WRONG. > I became then further interested in the autonomic balance and > mastication because this ties into research on heart rate variability > (which is of great interest re: heart failure progression). AND WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING DR. BOYD HAS OR HASN'T STATED? > Evaluation of mastication-induced change in sympatho-vagal balance > through spectral analysis of heart rate variability. CUT NON-SENSE > > Sue wrote: > > Note: However I do remember being surprised when learning about [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > CUT NON-SENSE YOU PERSPECTIVE IS SKEWED, OFF-VECTOR, AND WRONG. Reply. Tim, Please enlighten us with your perspective on Boyd's works. I became then further interested in the autonomic balance and mastication because this ties into research on heart rate variability (which is of great interest re: heart failure progression). AND WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING DR. BOYD HAS OR HASN'T STATED? There was discussion on DT by dentists that questioned the role of the sympathetics and parasympathetics in relation to parafunction. The only tie to Boyd is his description of parafunction. Also during the discussion, Dr. Boyd happened to mention his book on migraines. The rest (on the autonomic nervous system and its possible role in parafucntion) is all based upon conjecture FROM dentists. This discussion piqued my interest because much our research (re: heart failure disease progression and device treatments for heart failure) is based upon attempting to decrease adrenergic sympathetic activity and elevating parasympathetic tone. One measure (albeit controverisal measure) for determining parasympathtic tobene (in relation to sympathetic tone) in heart failure is to measure heart rate variability. Put very simply... ...an increase in heart rate variability (in heart failure patients) generally indicates increased parasympathtic activity This is desirable. I posted the study, just to show you that there is a relation to what I am doing and thus my interest. I am tired of you making accuations that are untrue. Taht was why I posted the abstract. -Sue PS If you wish me to stop talking, please stop asking questions and/or making accusations. I have to do some work now. Thanks. > YOU PERSPECTIVE IS SKEWED, OFF-VECTOR, AND WRONG. > > Reply. Tim, Please enlighten us with your perspective on Boyd's works. It's not my job to enlighten you about anything Dr. Boyd does or doesn't say. anf further more what are you sticking your nose into this for? you can take your happy holiday and ride it right on out of town lady. > Everyone makes mistakes and she corrected it when you let her know. > Aren't you being a bit harsh already? Have a happy healthy holiday. UM [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. What >> if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? Are you talking to me? I just lurk here and occasionally I ask questions. You act like you want to chase everyone off that you don't like. If others want me to go then fine I will but I just don't understand your lousy attitude. You have been flaming now for a while. I "stuck my nose in" because she said she was wrong and thanked you for pointing it out but you continued to flame her. Is this now your group and only people you approve of can post here? I'm sorry you are so angry. UM MOM Susan > anf further more what are you sticking your nose into this for? you can > take your happy holiday and ride it right on out of town lady. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>> made some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. >>> What if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? Yeah I'm talking to you. Butt out. "Sdores" <sdores@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:5chqf.16202$kP5.8032@bign2ews5.bellsouth.net... > Are you talking to me? I just lurk here and occasionally I ask questions. > Are you talking to me? I just lurk here and occasionally I ask questions. > You act like you want to chase everyone off that you don't like. If [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you continued to flame her. Is this now your group and only people you > approve of can post here? I'm sorry you are so angry. UM MOM Susan And what is with all you people that have to throw in your "I'm sorry you are so angry" hogwash. Who says anyone is angry but you? Do you have the market on not being angry and therefore feel entitled to throw out stupid remarks like that? Or is it just something you think you should say because you are a UM MOM. Give it a rest lady before your hair gets burned off from standing to close to the flames. because then they might call you UM BALD > Everyone makes mistakes and she corrected it when you let her know. Aren't > you being a bit harsh already? Have a happy healthy holiday. UM MOM Susan [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > some ludicrous statement about something that Boyd has never said. What > > if I wouldn't have called you on it Sue? Tim, My mom told me that angry people cannot rest until they make others angry. I really do not want to get angry Tim. This is only discussion. I enjoy learning and civil discussion. Why do you make this into a fight? You pointed out something that I did not realize I had done. My intentions were not to quote Boyd. I clarified. Case closed. Time to move on in the discussion. Calling someone on an error is part of healthy discussion, IMO. Hammering it to death and claiming that this error was intentional is: #1- unhealthy; does noone any good #2- is dead wrong in this case. You are calling me a liar based upon your own seemingly devious mode of thinking. I am not Jesus, but I not a liar either. I am also not here for either devious or potiential money-making motives. Btw, anyone is free to read Boyd's works and interpret these based upon their own level of understanding. I was extremely impressed and intrigued by his works. Sue PS Merry Christmas Susan. You are a very sweet person. I appreciate your support. >> Everyone makes mistakes and she corrected it when you let her know. >> Aren't [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > angry. I really do not want to get angry Tim. This is only discussion. > I enjoy learning and civil discussion. I don't care what your mommy told you. This is Usenet and you better get use to it. > Btw, anyone is free to read Boyd's works and interpret these based upon > their own level of understanding. I was extremely impressed and > intrigued by his works. Thats the problem, you don't know how to interpet anything Boyd says, you have confused the discussion with your lack of understanding. So leave it alone. You said that: "Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the muscles that control mandibular function as Boyd describes. (As I understand, this includes bruxism and grinding due to poor parasympathetic tone, thus affecting muscle relaxation... an essential component in normal chewing function)." Where has Boyd ever described that? Where sue? Cite a specific resource. (hint: you can't) And where does Boyd say anything about "poor parasympathetic tone, thus affecting muscle relaxation". Oh once again you dreamed that up too but you put Dr. Boyd's name right in the middle of it. You are so far off-track it isn't even funny. Your level of understanding parafunction, what causes it, and how it is controlled is about that of a 5th grader. Now if you want this to blow up into a full-scale war, i'm ready to scorch the earth you stand on. > > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain > > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where exactly did you read this or hear this? Meeting was cancelled...too many people off for the holidays. Tim, I am sorry for the confusion. I understand my error now. I was not quoting Boyd. I used the quotes around "parafunctional overuse" to point out that this is merely my interpretation of the main point (i.e. parafunction) made by Boyd's in his theory on TMJ disorders. I added "overuse" because I believe that clenching and grinding consitute overuse of the TMJ and surrounding muscles. Tim, I often use quotes an indication that this is only theory and my colloquialism, not fact. Used in the proper context, this is a perfectly acceptable (and inteded) use for quotes. However in this case, since I followed the quotes with "as described by Boyd," my message was incorrectly stated. You are entirely correct. Clarification: I was not quoting Boyd. Thank you for pointing out my error. -Sue >> > Theory Only: I would venture to guess that the onset of pain >> > associated with TMJ disorder is due to "parafunctional overuse" of the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > because I believe that clenching and grinding consitute overuse of the > TMJ and surrounding muscles. Once again you are suggesting something about what Dr. Boyd has to say without backing it up with cited reference. YOU need to leave this alone sue. >> Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Shorter and fewer spindles and contractile fibers. If you think I am >looking at this wrong, I would like to discuss it further. I am thinking of shortened muscles due to decreased VDO. Am thinking of the overclosed denture patient that can bite nails in two. Am thinking about a shorter thicker muscle, not atrophic muscle tissue. Which BTW if the muscle in question has atropy, how did it get this way and do you suppose that it is no longer in function ? -- Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com In the discussion of an artificial TMJ, there is no place for some of the muscles to insert. While in this particular case, the coronoid process was "damaged", giving the temporalis no place to insert as well. For the muscle which is normal, but functioning in a shorter range, I agree with George. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Shortened muscles tend to be much stronger. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > In the discussion of an artificial TMJ, there is no place for some of the > muscles to insert. While in this particular case, the coronoid process was > "damaged", giving the temporalis no place to insert as well. > > For the muscle which is normal, but functioning in a shorter range, I agree > with George. Important little points... Webby > / > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Take out the G'RBAGE > > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from > not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which [quoted text clipped - 204 lines] > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Webby > Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from > not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > habitually for hours at a time, and creating muscle pain, while never > registering much force on a strain gauge. Amatus, I cannot answer your questions but I think I can speak to the length to "strength" relationship, at least a little bit, from the standpoint of a single sarcomere. I think this can be translated to the larger muscle (maybe). (We have this impounded in our brains here). The muscle is like an elastic band. The further the band is stretched, the more force at which it contracts (to a point). There is a specific sarcomere length at which the actin and myosin filaments optimally slide past and overlap one another to effect contraction (Ca++ exchange via the tropnin -tropomyosin complex). This length is between 1.65 micrometers and 2.2 micrometers. When the sarcomere is overstretched or too long (>2.2 um) , it loses contraction force.. When it is too short (<1.65 um), it loses contraction force. In the resting state, the optimum sarcomere length is approximately 2 micrometers. At this length it is able to contract with maximum force. So in answer to your question, I would venture to guess there is a point at which a shortened muscle can lose its "strength." In addition there is a point at which a lengthened muscle (over-stretched) can lose its strength. The muscle hypertrophy that occurs with exercise (which I think is what Whamatus is referring to) results in a thicking of the sacromere.. not a lengthening or shortening. This is my understanding anyway, from what I have been taught. Best regards, Sue > > Is it loss of muscle strength or muscle atrophy (shorter muscle length) from > > not being stretched fully anymore? I would imagine shorter muscles which [quoted text clipped - 247 lines] > Best regards, > Sue Actually, I was prompted to look this up and learned something new. The relation of muscle length to force of contraction is not exactly the same as the sarcomere's relation... but similar. Since the whole muscle has a large amount of connective tissue and the sarcomeres do not all contract in unison, the curve shaped like an S (with tension of muscle on the y-axis and muscle length on the x-axis). Gotta run now. Take Care, Sue Actually, I was prompted to look this up and learned something new. The relation of muscle length to force of contraction is not exactly the same as the sarcomere's relation... but similar. Since the whole muscle has a large amount of connective tissue and the sarcomeres do not all contract in unison, the curve shaped like an S (with tension of muscle on the y-axis and muscle length on the x-axis). Gotta run now. Take Care, Sue I wonder if we are still missing some pieces to this > puzzle. > > Webby I'm sure we are. We are merely in a better position than we were 10 years ago. Dartos > > I wonder if we are still missing some pieces to this > > puzzle. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Dartos Yes, and Yes!! Webby The only good thing was I am usually a chatter box and obviously I couldn't! :) Webby I wouldn't hesitate to ask more questions if I had any. I did read your history when you posted it and you had it worse than I did. UM MOM Susan >> This subject is, IMHO, worthy of discussion between the dentists who >> prescribe NTI rather than full coverage "splints" for the management of [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] >>> >> > >>> >> > Webby |
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