Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / February 2007
Complications post-extraction, need advice
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jenbooks13@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2005 16:16 GMT I went to a general dentist for extraction of a first upper molar on my right side. I now think she was very inexperienced at extractions and that she and her staff lied about this and she mainly does cosmetic dentistry, this is because I have had a few other uneventful extractions in the past by oral surgeons and this one has been such a mess. Basically I think she rotated and elevated it too aggressively causing lots of damage. In any case, I wonder if any dentists on here can give me advice.
1) I had the extraction on a Friday afternoon. After the extraction I felt something was seriously wrong and got nervous and asked my primary doc for amoxicillin and took it for a week 3x day. I never take antibiotics so people here will have to trust my intuition. I'd notice during that week that sometimes as the time was nearing for the next dose of amoxicillin the site would start throbbing, but once the antibiotic was in my system it would calm down. After 7 days it felt pretty decent so I stopped. Within 2 days I had severe nerve pain again. While keeping the dentist informed of this she said I should be on painkillers not antibiotics
2) I went back to her 10 days later, a Monday, and asked for an xray as I was so concerned about the unusual pain. She said the antibiotics had been a placebo effect, I should be on painkillers, and it was too "sore" to take the x-ray I requested (I thought perhaps a root fragment or something might be in there).
3) It was NOT too sore as I went around the corner to a clinic the next day for an x-ray but nothing obvious showed. However the fact she refused to take an x-ray and the subsequent problems I encountered makes me feel she is liable for malpractice.
4) My best friend took me to her dentist of 20 years, he was concerned that I had a sequestrum or a sinus perforatin, took a panorex, wasn't able to determine, gave me another antibiotic, and said let's just see if that works, otherwise you can come back and we'll open it up and a sequestrum will start showing itself soon if itst hat. It took me weeks of severe pain and to notice I did indeed have a sequestrum. In fact, and this may sound weird to you all, but I visualized my tooth socket and I drew a fracture going up the front part (where the nearest root would have been I guess) and a bony fragment sticking out. I showed him the drawing. He had to do a flap surgery or whatever thats called go in, found the fragment, removed it, smoothed down the bone. He said the fracture went up 90% of the socket and that a 3 by 4 mm piece of bone was MISSING ie had come out in the procedure. BTW the first time i visited him I had him call her to tell him had anything unusual happened in the procedure butshe never mentioned this--yet she must've seen that piece of bone come out. She's not an idiot. Let's just say I'm pretty angryw ith her and yes I'm going to sue her, I"ve researched this, I understand one can have seqeualea BUT her followup is dishonest and atrocious requiring me to seek help elsewhere for additional cost.
5) After he remoed that--he didn't see any obvious infection and did not recommend antibiotics, I was in severe pain for a while, SEVERE (as in, I was hysterical), but now 2 1/2 weeks later that area is completely healed and does not hurt. However I feel there is infection somehow percolating in there as it initially responded to antibiotics, flare dup off antibiotics, and I have continued pain that feels up at the top of the socket and sinus floor, feels very sore, sometimes is nerve pain that runs up the side of my nose and down my arm, other tiems just feels sore and pressure. But I do not really want to take a 3rd course of abx until I find out what is the strange cause here as the scraped down bone where the sequestrum was has HEALED j ust fine.
6) I began to wonder if I had a small sinus perforation as well. I went to an oral surgeon via my HMO and she also took ap anroex and told me I have ver ylarge sinuses geneticaly that dip down low with very little bone btw teeth and sinus. That's just me--not that i have bad bone or bone loss, just my anatomy. So she agreed to order a catscan hoping we can visualize it better in case there would be a perforation. Its the only thing that I, formerly somewhat dentally naive, can think of, considering my anatomy, how idiotic and uncaring and inept this first dentist was. Oh I forgot to mention, because it was "bleeding excessively" (and no, I don't take aspirin or blood thinners and yes my platelets are normal) she stitched it with dissolvable sutures (2) in spite of my request that she wait with me to let it clot on its own. I felt that it would be much healthier for it to clot on its own as other extractions had esp since then it can freely drain and you are probably less likely to get an infection. But since she's 7 months pregnant and wanted to go home early (it was 4 pm) she stitched it, she dind't say that's why, but I believe that's why she wouldn't wait longer.
So I am wondering, perhaps I had a small sinus perforation that would have healed up on its own but a proper clot didn't form/ I E perhaps I had everytihng go wrong possible--fracture, sequestrum, perforation, and infection that I self treated but is somehow still percolating low grade in the sinus area if it isn't healing properly.
Am I doing the right thing with a catscan? Of course I am waiting for "preapproval" from my insurance so I cant get the scan till next week and then have to go see the oral surgeon again etc. What else can I do? Past extractions hurt for only a day or two and healed up fine. This thing has been going on for 6 weeks and the fact that the sequestrum, shaved down bone, has healed up fine in 2 weeks, and yet I still have this pain, pressure, and sometimes nerve pain that feels on the top of the socket/sinus floor of the extraction area, and sometimes the gum there is sore too--but nothing obvious to the naked eye--what else could it logically be?
Thanx
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 16:42 GMT > I went to a general dentist for extraction of a first upper molar on my > right side. I now think she was very inexperienced at extractions and [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > Thanx It is possible there was a sinus perforation, but it seems likely from your narrative that it has healed. BTW, there is nothing other than your obvious anger to indicate to me that she did anything wrong. Sequestrae form--it happens, and cannot always be predicted. The seqestrum was likely responsible for the delay in healing, but any sequestrae become dislodged and therefore more obvious with time, so you cannot assume that because the second dentist say it that the first should have known it. As far as the suturing, this shows more attention to care (as opposed to the dentist who will pack your mouth with gauze and send you home), not less. I'm sorry this was rough for you, and you may well wish to consider getting any other extractions done by the surgeon if you feel the dentist was inexperienced or inept. But there is no law suit here IMO.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Whamatus_Bemoana - 08 Dec 2005 17:40 GMT >However the fact she >refused to take an x-ray and the subsequent problems I encountered >makes me feel she is liable for malpractice. I stopped reading right here. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Minnie - 08 Dec 2005 20:03 GMT >3) It was NOT too sore as I went around the corner to a clinic the next >day for an x-ray but nothing obvious showed. However the fact she >refused to take an x-ray and the subsequent problems I encountered >makes me feel she is liable for malpractice. Ask a lawyer about malpractice...not a pack of dentists.
>and yet I still have >this pain, pressure, and sometimes nerve pain that feels on the top of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Thanx Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 20:05 GMT >>3) It was NOT too sore as I went around the corner to a clinic the next >>day for an x-ray but nothing obvious showed. However the fact she >>refused to take an x-ray and the subsequent problems I encountered >>makes me feel she is liable for malpractice. > > Ask a lawyer about malpractice...not a pack of dentists. By all means, ask a lawyer.
Steve
>>and yet I still have >>this pain, pressure, and sometimes nerve pain that feels on the top of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>Thanx
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
The Webby - 08 Dec 2005 21:02 GMT > >>3) It was NOT too sore as I went around the corner to a clinic the next > >>day for an x-ray but nothing obvious showed. However the fact she [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve The general public has so little knowledge of what professional malpractice is and is not. And where do they learn about what is and isn't malpractice? ... And just because people are doctors or dentists, it doesn't mean they know all that much about it either -- until faced with the real thing.
Webby
> >>and yet I still have > >>this pain, pressure, and sometimes nerve pain that feels on the top of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> > >>Thanx Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 21:16 GMT > The general public has so little knowledge of what professional > malpractice is and is not. And where do they learn about what is and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Webby I don't disagree. We all take the courses and understand the concepts on an academic level. I don't think they tell us that (for example) a valid case of negligence will not be brought because the amount of work required to bring it is often not worth the meager payday to the attorney.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
jenbooks13@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2005 22:15 GMT You're all so concerned with my statement about malpractice that nobody is addressing what could be the cause of the continuing pain? The area scraped down where the sequestrum was, has HEALED. The pain is up in the top of the socket and near the sinus floor. I'm getting a catscan tomorrow.
My point about HER is that she refused to even take an xray when I presented with severe pain OFF antibiotics 10 days post-extraction. She also refused to wait with me to let it clot because she wanted to go home. The malpractice is a SIDE issue for me and I am NOT asking about malpractice. I've read enough on the web to know that it is not the sequestrum, but the lack of good followup, and refusing to take an xray or do anything 10 days later, when pain had flared off antibiotics, that is the problem with her care.
Forget the malpractice part. Can you address whether this could be due to the fracture/missing bone that has to grow back, or possibly a small sinus perforation that might not have healed if there was not a proper clot?
OR can there be low grade infection in one area without obvious swelling...since antibiotics DID substantially reduce the discomfort, and it increased OFF antibiotics.
Thanx.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 22:55 GMT > You're all so concerned with my statement about malpractice that nobody > is addressing what could be the cause of the continuing pain? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanx. Anything we say would be speculation. Of course if the pain remits with antibiotics it is suggestive of an infective process. However, it could just be coincidence. Or, you could have a sinus infection which may or may not be related to the extraction. You're going for a CAT, which under the circumstances is a good idea. Wait for the results before trying to nail down a diagnosis.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
jenbooks13@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2005 23:35 GMT Thanx, I understand its speculation but I am trying to navigate this on my own by researching and that's very confusing. The 2nd dentist felt he'd scraped down to healthy bone (and by the way his followup care was so compassionate, he checked in with me every day) and that he did not see infection. But you can't always SEE It with the naked eye. But he is a person who prefers NOT to prescribe abx that is his bias. I determined myself that I wanted a CAT. I wrote the group because I really don't have enough good guidance here. I don't even KNOW if a CAT is the best idea. I don't see how it would be a sinsu infection as it would be a one-sided infection that mostly hurt on the sinus floor (the sinus itself does not hurt), that would not make sense.
Whamatus - 08 Dec 2005 23:57 GMT >I determined myself that I wanted a CAT. >I wrote the group because I really don't have enough good guidance >here. I don't even KNOW if a CAT is the best idea. Have you considered a DOG ? --
Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Whamatus - 08 Dec 2005 23:38 GMT >Can you address whether this could be due to the fracture/missing bone >that has to grow back, or possibly a small sinus perforation that might [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Thanx. Who knows ?
I wasn't there.
Like I said before, stopped reading at the mention of malpractice. --
Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Ann - 10 Dec 2005 11:47 GMT >You're all so concerned with my statement about malpractice that nobody >is addressing what could be the cause of the continuing pain? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >swelling...since antibiotics DID substantially reduce the discomfort, >and it increased OFF antibiotics. You sound like a patient who demands certain investigations and treatment. Maybe that put the dentist's back up and she reacted accordingly. Maybe if left to do the diagnosing and treatment plan herself things would have worked out better. But I may be doing you an injustice, it's just the way your post comes across.
The Webby - 08 Dec 2005 20:47 GMT > >3) It was NOT too sore as I went around the corner to a clinic the next > >day for an x-ray but nothing obvious showed. However the fact she [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > >Thanx Malpractice questions are fair game. But in order to ask the questions, much more information about the "care provided" would need to be provided. Generally speaking, it is a difficult subject to discuss in this environment; but, it is not off topic.
Please read the Charter.
original Charter as presented by Alec Ellsworth, a dental student at the time. from Feb. 15, 1993
> sci.med.dentistry > Discussion of dentally related topics [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and answers, medico-legal issues, and any other related dentistry > discussion. The Webby (who seems to be the custodian of The Charter)
Minnie - 09 Dec 2005 16:44 GMT >> sci.med.dentistry >> Discussion of dentally related topics [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> and answers, medico-legal issues, and any other related dentistry >> discussion. whot? nothing about (thugs) knocking over old ladies at the mall?
Tim Dixon - 09 Dec 2005 18:17 GMT >>> sci.med.dentistry >>> Discussion of dentally related topics [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > whot? nothing about (thugs) knocking over old ladies at the mall? yeah it's there in the 'other' charter.
JimSocal - 08 Dec 2005 20:48 GMT I am a fellow dental patient who has had more than his fair share of bad dentistry to contend with, between my wife and I.
I have found that it is nearly impossible to get one dentist to say another dentist is guilty of malpractice, even those whose job it is to be impartial and review cases; and without a dentist willing to testify thus, you will probably not win your lawsuit. It is my observation that one will not testify against another unless the case was SO clear cut and gross negligence so obvious that it was abasolutely undeniable. From the answers here I can see that there is some doubt, therefore you will not likely win the suit.
Unfortunately there are some bad dentists out there, and it appears you may have found one. OR, it could be that the dentist did nothing wrong and it was just unforeseen circumstances that led to your problem.
My advice is go to a different dentist, because you no longer trust this one, and try to put this problem behind you.
Secondly, do NOT use a dentist through an "HMO" type dental plan, whatever you do; they are the ones who have given us the most problems.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 21:10 GMT > I am a fellow dental patient who has had more than his fair share of > bad dentistry to contend with, between my wife and I. > > I have found that it is nearly impossible to get one dentist to say > another dentist is guilty of malpractice, even those whose job it is > to be impartial and review cases; I don't know what the source of your assertion is. My knowledge of cases in peer review (complaints against dentists brought to the dental society for arbitration) in my old dental component was that approximately 2/3 of the total cases were found for the patient and against the dentist.
Steve
and without a dentist willing to
> testify thus, you will probably not win your lawsuit. It is my > observation that one will not testify against another unless the case [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > whatever you do; they are the ones who have given us the most > problems.
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
JimSocal - 08 Dec 2005 23:17 GMT >> I am a fellow dental patient who has had more than his fair share of >> bad dentistry to contend with, between my wife and I. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Steve Steve, this is just my personal experience. It may not be representative of the overall state of reviewed complaints.
I have had dentists tell me that my and my wife's dental work was bad, and then when I ask them if it amounts to malpractice they back off and explain how it isn't necessarily that bad...
Another time we had xrays showing a bad root canal and bad bridgework - confirmed by several dentists who looked at it - but when we went to an arbitrating dentist in an official capacity, he ruled against us, for the dentist. Could be just coincidence, but my experience is that it's a waste of time to try to file a complaint against a dentist.
Also I was commenting as much as anything on the hassle of it all, and how it is sometimes best to just move on.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 08 Dec 2005 23:22 GMT > Steve, this is just my personal experience. It may not be > representative of the overall state of reviewed complaints. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Also I was commenting as much as anything on the hassle of it all, and > how it is sometimes best to just move on. Fair enough.
Steve
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
jenbooks13@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2005 23:39 GMT Really the malpractice was an aside BUT I think if the followup care is indifferent and/or attempts to hide/obfuscate the bad job, then it is important to think about a lawsuit even if a hassle because that bad dentist does not have a conscience and will hurt others.
I have af riend whose wisdom teeth were pulled and she ended up with a bunch of sequestri and the oral srugeon cancelled all his patients that morning to remove them all and stitch her up and take care of her. So THAT is good followup care to a bad initial outcome.
But if someone doesn't tell you bone came out, the socket fractured, won't take an x-ray, and says just stay on painkillers, then THAT is not good followup care. And it is important for society in general to try to reign in those types of folks.
However my main concern right now is simply what is going on in the area. Since as I said dthe sequestrum area and the scraped down bone there feels FINE and yet there is still a lot of soreness pain up in the socket area.
Dartos - 09 Dec 2005 13:53 GMT Could be coming from another tooth. Could be sinus trouble. Could be that you are a clencher. Could be that more healing time is indicated (bone doesn't heal as fast as soft tissue).
JME, Dartos
> However my main concern right now is simply what is going on in the > area. Since as I said dthe sequestrum area and the scraped down bone > there feels FINE and yet there is still a lot of soreness pain up in > the socket area. Whamatus - 08 Dec 2005 23:51 GMT >sometimes best to just move on. Maybe Jim isn't SoDim afterall.
While he's getting his mouth worked on, perhaps they can do something about that terminal case of verbal diarrhea. --
Whamatus Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 12 Dec 2005 19:16 GMT > I have had dentists tell me that my and my wife's dental work was bad, > and then when I ask them if it amounts to malpractice they back off > and explain how it isn't necessarily that bad... A fair and compassionate dentist will tell you the work in your mouth, as it presents at this time, is not acceptable. But, he would be foolish to tell you it was done wrong or poorly, unless he was in the room while it was being done. There are times when the work done is not your usually high quality, but due to time constraints, problems with the patient, materials not responding properly, equipment failing, etc. the work may not be exceptional. There was a time where I saw a filling on a teenager which looked worse than garbage. I called up the previous doc to tell him about it, and he looked in his notes and told me the patient came in that day all beat up and sore, the patient would not sit still and the parent was all upset, and the result I saw was the best he could get into that mouth during that time. That does not mean that no dentist ever does the wrong thing, but that you cannot tell why a final result is poor after the fact.
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> >>> I am a fellow dental patient who has had more than his fair share of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Also I was commenting as much as anything on the hassle of it all, and > how it is sometimes best to just move on. jenbooks13@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2005 22:21 GMT I agree with you about HMO's, though she was an expensive dentist who now in retrospect I realize perobably mostly does cosmetic (everybody that day was getting veneers).
Its easier for me to judge a good doctor than a good dentist tho the second one I went to seemed very good. I am going to him henceforth I hope. But it is totally impossible to know in advance who is a good dentist. Good doctors are often associated with top universities and well known in their specialties. Dentists...you are lucky when you find a good one.
tooth2601@gmail.com - 09 Dec 2005 03:21 GMT PPO,HMO,EPO, ANY O'S CAN DO...DO NOT PUT A LABEL ON A DENTIST AND ASSUME HE WILL GIVE YOU PROBLEMS.....
HMO'S OR HEALTH-MAINTAINANCE ORGANIZATIONS WERE DESIGNED WITH THE CORRECT INTENT....TO PAY 100% FOR PREVENTATIVE TREATMENT OF THE PATIENT. THUS AS A PATIENT YOU RECEIVE ALL THE BASIC DENTISTRY(CLEANINGS, FILLINGS. XRAYS AND EXAMS) WHILE THE DENTIST RECEIVES A PER MONTHLY FEE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL OR A FAMILY THE PROBLEMS WHICH ARISE IS HOW MUCH IS THE DENTIST RECEIVING TO DO ALL THIS PREVENTION...WHAT IS THE DENTIST'S OVERHEAD ..... IN A GROUP PRACTICE AN HMO IS NOT SO BAD...THE OVERHEAD IS SPREAD OUT OF MANY DENTISTS.. BUT IN A SOLO DENTIST THAT RATE PAID PER MONTH MAY NOT BE ADEQUATE..
ASK YOU DENTIST ON THE HMO...HOW MUCH HE GETS PER PATIENT..PER FAMILY...TO DO ALL THE NECESSARY DENTAL TREATMENT.
THEN ASK ONE MORE QUESTION...IF HE RECEIVES THE MONTHLY CHECK BUT YOU HAVE NO DENTAL TREATMENT AT ALL EXCEPT A BASIC POLISHING..IS THIS ENOUGH FOR HIS OVERHEAD....
Steven Bornfeld - 09 Dec 2005 03:31 GMT > PPO,HMO,EPO, ANY O'S CAN DO...DO NOT PUT A LABEL ON A DENTIST AND > ASSUME HE WILL GIVE YOU PROBLEMS..... > > HMO'S OR HEALTH-MAINTAINANCE ORGANIZATIONS WERE DESIGNED WITH THE > CORRECT INTENT....TO PAY 100% FOR PREVENTATIVE TREATMENT OF THE > PATIENT. Actually, the intent was to transfer the insurance function (that is, pooling premium dollars and paying out benefits) from the insurance companies to the dentists.
Steve
THUS AS A PATIENT YOU RECEIVE ALL THE BASIC
> DENTISTRY(CLEANINGS, FILLINGS. XRAYS AND EXAMS) WHILE THE DENTIST > RECEIVES A PER MONTHLY FEE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL OR A FAMILY [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > HAVE NO DENTAL TREATMENT AT ALL EXCEPT A BASIC POLISHING..IS THIS > ENOUGH FOR HIS OVERHEAD.... Dartos - 09 Dec 2005 13:59 GMT > HMO'S OR HEALTH-MAINTAINANCE ORGANIZATIONS WERE DESIGNED WITH THE > CORRECT INTENT....TO PAY 100% FOR PREVENTATIVE TREATMENT OF THE > PATIENT. Where did good intentions pave a road to?
> THEN ASK ONE MORE QUESTION...IF HE RECEIVES THE MONTHLY CHECK BUT YOU > HAVE NO DENTAL TREATMENT AT ALL EXCEPT A BASIC POLISHING..IS THIS > ENOUGH FOR HIS OVERHEAD.... Hmm...how does this dentist make the most profit? How would this dentist lose money?
Dartos
Amatus Cremona - 08 Dec 2005 20:49 GMT Full Moon ?
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>I went to a general dentist for extraction of a first upper molar on my > right side. I now think she was very inexperienced at extractions and [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > Thanx Hillary - 24 Feb 2007 19:34 GMT <A HREF="http://needspeedcars.info/Phenytoin/Phenytoin.htm">Phenytoin</A
Helga - 24 Feb 2007 20:52 GMT <A HREF="http://needspeedcars.info/Pioglitazone/Pioglitazone.htm">Pioglitazone</A
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