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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2005

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Is this dentist a con artist? Is this a fair price for what I got?

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JimSocal - 01 Dec 2005 02:36 GMT
I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
it was going to be in the neighborhood of $275. But when I got there
he told me it was going to be $525.

Let me clarify that I know Delta PMI is a rip-off; but this is the end
of the year and I had already had this dentist examine me and
determine that the crown was needed, and I did not want to switch
dentists. I also am under the impression that the dentist does good
work (the least painful shots I've had and he seems to know what he is
doing (??), and he's a member of both the ADA and the state
association for around 14 years, for what that's worth.

So anyway, I go in and he tells me it is $525 and I say, "Well, I
don't understand that because I checked with Delta PMI and they said
it was only around $275." A woman on the phone at the insurance co.
had told me it was around $275 as I recall, at the outside (highest it
could be). But to be honest my memory is not real clear on that, nor
do I know if the exact same materials and procedures were accounted
for. But I am positive it was quite a bit less than $525.

Anyway, he says, "Look, it's like this: I send my lab work out to a
lab that I work with and the prices Delta gave you are based on
Delta's labs which I don't work with. If you want to have it done at
that price you would have to make an appointment with another dentist,
and that would be a shame since we're here today, ready to do it. I
used to do it with their lab, but I don't any more."

I could see I was being snowed, but the fact is, I DID want to get it
done today, and I figured by the time I dealt with the hassle of
getting these x-rays transferred over to another dentist, or made
another 2 appointments with another dentist before he'd do it, it was
just too much trouble to go somewhere else to get it done. In other
words, this guy had me by the balls.

So I agreed to it.

But I said, "Tell me, doctor: Does this insurance really do me any
good, or would it cost the same if I came in without the insurance?"
He said, "Oh, no! The insurance is good, for YOU. But not for me. I
only make a few dollars per month off insurance but you are getting a
good deal because I usually charge $1200 for this." I said, "Really?"
and he said "Yes, that's what I would usually charge."

So here's how he broke down the price:
"Treatment for Tooth" [what is this, exactly?]  $ 30
"Standard co-payment: PFM Crown or Onlay"        100
"Porcelain"                    150
"Porcelain margin"                 75
"Noble or high noble metal"            200

TOTAL                        $525"
*****************************************************
Well, first of all, I just now realized his math is wrong, and the sum
actually comes out to $555, but he wrote $525.

Okay. Now it gets so weird, I thought I was in the Twilight Zone.

After the procedure, he tells me, "I had to go very deep. I did not
reach the pulp, but I still think you should get a root canal, just as
a preventative, so that you don't need one later and have to drill
through the crown to do it. If I were you, I'd schedule it now and get
it done before I do the crown, just to prevent needing it later."

I said I'd think about it.

He came back after he did the impression and said, "So, do you want to
schedule the root canal or not?"

I said, "Well, I'd like to think about it overnight.  How much would
it cost and who would do it?"

He said he'd refer it out to an endodontist and he'd have his
receptionist check on the insurance price. She ended up telling me it
would be only $100-150.

So then he put in the temporary filling or whatever it is, and then I
went to pay the $525 and make an appointment for the crown to be
installed in 2 weeks.

So I said to the receptionist, "He said I should make an appointment
to have a root canal done, just in case, so I don't need it later,
after the crown is put on. I'm not sure if I'm going to do it, but I
would like to know how much it would cost me if I do."

She said, "Oh, he didn't write that, here, let me check with him."

So she goes to talk with him and comes back and says "No, he says you
should only do the root canal IF it starts hurting."

I said, "But that's not what he told me, just now. He specifically
told me that he recommended doing the root canal as a PREVENTATIVE
measure, so I wouldn't have to do it later."

She said, "No, I just asked him, and he said to ONLY do it if you have
pain. So let us know if you do."

I said, "Well that's strange because he just told me something
different..."

And I left.

What's up with this guy? Is he a TOTAL CON ARTIST, or what?

Did he change his mind because he realized insurance would not approve
a "preventative" root canal?

Is it acceptable to prescribe a "preventative" root canal if one
drills close to the pulp?

I specifically recall him saying "It's close enough to the pulp that I
would go ahead and do it if I were you, but it's not NECESSARY." But
he was definitely pushing for it and I said, "And what is the downside
if I DON'T do the root canal now?" And he said "Then you might have to
drill through the crown later, which would perhaps weaken it and lead
to later chipping or cracking it".

I must say that I hate going to dentists and feeling I'm being sold
sh.t I don't need. I hate going to a dentist and feeling like I'm
dealing with a slimy used car salesman.

I know, I know, I have to stop going to Insurance dentists. And I
intend to. But now I'm not sure I'll trust a non-insurance dentist,
either.
Steven Bornfeld - 01 Dec 2005 03:18 GMT
> I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
> My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> intend to. But now I'm not sure I'll trust a non-insurance dentist,
> either.

    As you surely recognize, there are a lot of red flags here.  I don't
know how things are in CA, but I'm not aware that Delta has any of their
own labs (guys/gals, please correct me if I'm wrong).  If this guy is
contractually obligated to a specific fee, he is obligated to a specific
fee.  Telling you he is using an
extra-special-sooper-dooper-class-A-peachy-keen lab so he has to charge
you an extra $300 is just another flavor of bait-and-switch.
    It is conceivable that something untoward may have happened that was a
surprise.  But if there was any suspicion that a root canal was
necessary, it should have been discussed BEFORE he picked up his drill.
 If the pulp was exposed you need root canal.  If it was not, I
recommend a nice temporary and wait a couple of weeks and evaluate.  I'm
not for "preventive" root canals.  If there is doubt I would cement the
finished crown with temporary cement for an additional month or two.

Steve
Steven Bornfeld - 01 Dec 2005 03:19 GMT
>> I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown. My
>> Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
>
> Steve

    One more thing.  There are some special services (such as a porcelain
margin) that are specific services that a lab will charge extra for, so
IMO he is justified in a reasonable additional fee for this service.

Steve
Vaughn - 02 Dec 2005 00:26 GMT
> One more thing.  There are some special services (such as a porcelain margin)
> that are specific services that a lab will charge extra for, so IMO he is
> justified in a reasonable additional fee for this service.

    The $200 for "Noble or high noble metal" is high.  My wife works in a
dental lab and bills out the cases to the dentists.  It depends on how much
metal is in the case and today's market conditions, but the differential between
high noble and the non-precious (crap) metal that your insurance will pay for is
about $25.00.  The noble and high noble metal is actually easier for the lab to
work with compared to the non-precious.  As a businessman, your dentist is
entitled to a reasonable markup on anything he supplies, but 100% markup only
takes you to $50.00!

Vaughn

> Steve
Steven Bornfeld - 02 Dec 2005 03:07 GMT
>>One more thing.  There are some special services (such as a porcelain margin)
>>that are specific services that a lab will charge extra for, so IMO he is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Vaughn

    I'm being charged a lot more for gold on my crowns and implant
abutments.  I think gold went over $500/oz this week.  The refiners I'm
sure bang the labs--I think casting gold (maybe 14 K) costs almost as
much as gold on the open market.

Steve

>>Steve
JimSocal - 01 Dec 2005 03:29 GMT
>> I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
>> My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
>> it was going to be in the neighborhood of $275. But when I got there
>> he told me it was going to be $525.
>> [snip]...

>    As you surely recognize, there are a lot of red flags here.  I don't
>know how things are in CA, but I'm not aware that Delta has any of their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>extra-special-sooper-dooper-class-A-peachy-keen lab so he has to charge
>you an extra $300 is just another flavor of bait-and-switch.
That is pretty obvious. And he may have just screwed the wrong guy
because I WILL report this after he finishes my crown and all is well.
I doubt it will do any good, but I'll report it, anyway.

>    It is conceivable that something untoward may have happened that was a
>surprise.  But if there was any suspicion that a root canal was
>necessary, it should have been discussed BEFORE he picked up his drill.

He told me that he had reason to believe I MIGHT need a root canal,
before the crown was done. Then, after it the drilling he told me, as
above, that the pulp was not exposed but that he would recommend the
root canal be done "as a preventive procedure, to avoid having it done
later on down the line AFTER the crown is put in place".
>  If the pulp was exposed you need root canal.  If it was not, I
>recommend a nice temporary and wait a couple of weeks and evaluate.  I'm
>not for "preventive" root canals.  If there is doubt I would cement the
>finished crown with temporary cement for an additional month or two.

Thanks a lot, for your input. I kind of suspected that a
"preventative" root canal was not a good idea. Anyone else here
concur? or disagree?

Interesting how for some reason he changed his tune when I went to the
desk to ask about it...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 01 Dec 2005 16:03 GMT
>>>I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
>>>My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Interesting how for some reason he changed his tune when I went to the
> desk to ask about it...

    I wouldn't presume.  There's a lot that happens between my chair and
the front desk, and if he's worthy of the benefit of the doubt, he just
may have thought better of it.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dartos - 01 Dec 2005 17:53 GMT
I agree with everything Dr. Bornfeld said.

Dartos

> Thanks a lot, for your input. I kind of suspected that a
> "preventative" root canal was not a good idea. Anyone else here
> concur? or disagree?
Jim - 01 Dec 2005 22:11 GMT
Thanks to all you guys for replying. I feel that my opinion was/is
right, that the guy is a con artist and a liar. Many other little
pieces of evidence that I won't go into. Just his general attitude.
Like when I told him I was getting my implants via USC because I
couldn't afford them via "his" oral surgeon (guy he refers patients
to), he was visibly angry about it. On the other hand, the oral surgeon
(who did my #18 extraction and would have done the implants) was
totally cool with it, understood that I was doing what I had to do,
economically. At least if he was upset about losing the business, he
didn't show it like this dentist did. Also,  when I questioned him
about the increased billing, he got visibly upset (didn't yell or
anything, but gave me "attitude"), as if I had no business questioning
it. I basically find the guy to be an a.s. However, so far (and I hope
this is true, I really have little to base it on) he seems like he does
good work.

I find it very hard to believe he gets $1200 for a crown. Isn't it
usually more like about what I paid: $500-600? So that would make him a
liar. I may have someone call in a few weeks and ask what he charges
for the same thing...

I made it clear from my first appointment that I was a Delta PMI
patient and expected to get those prices. If he intended to charge me
more, or "could not" operate within that framework, he should have told
me that from the get-go. The fact that he was not upfront about the
extra charges makes him a con artist in my book.

Further, the fact that neither I nor my wife could get in for our free
cleanings until February means he is not - for all practical purposes,
though perhaps technically he is - honoring the Delta PMI contract.
This as much as anything is why I will change dentists. IF this guy is
indeed a good dentist, it is a shame, because I was looking for a good
dentist, and would stay with him if he'd been honest and not dicked me
around.

Again, I appreciate that there are good dentists on this board who help
me figure this stuff out. Thank you.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 01 Dec 2005 23:38 GMT
> Thanks to all you guys for replying. I feel that my opinion was/is
> right, that the guy is a con artist and a liar. Many other little
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Again, I appreciate that there are good dentists on this board who help
> me figure this stuff out. Thank you.

    Fees for crowns vary widely. $1200 is probably on the high side for
Brooklyn, probably on the low side for Manhattan.  It's not an unusually
high fee in any case.  $500-$600 is probably a very low fee for a
private dental fee just about anywhere in the country.  Even I charge
more than that! ;-)

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

JimSocal - 02 Dec 2005 09:41 GMT
>    Fees for crowns vary widely. $1200 is probably on the high side for
>Brooklyn, probably on the low side for Manhattan.  It's not an unusually
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Steve
Okay, well at least I didn't pay too much for the thing, assuming it
is done right.

Right now I realize I have a sharp piece of the temporary filling (or
something) sticking out and hurting my tongue. Guess I didn't notice
it yesterday due to the anesthesia. I'm going to call him back in the
morning to see if he can file it down (?) before I go into work at
2pm. But this is fairly common, isn't it? I know I had it that way on
my other crown a couple years ago...
Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> Right now I realize I have a sharp piece of the temporary filling (or
> something) sticking out and hurting my tongue. Guess I didn't notice
> it yesterday due to the anesthesia. I'm going to call him back in the
> morning to see if he can file it down (?) before I go into work at
> 2pm. But this is fairly common, isn't it?

Well.... people have died from pieces of temoporaries sticking out.....
;-)

Just don't let him charge you. Here in Kanada, our hygienists can do
that legally.  Probably the same down your'n in the Land Of Confusion.

SP
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Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> Thanks to all you guys for replying. I feel that my opinion was/is
> right, that the guy is a con artist and a liar. Many other little
> pieces of evidence that I won't go into.

Again, IMO, this is a _side issue_. Get the RTC if you want the crown.
SP
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Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> Further, the fact that neither I nor my wife could get in for our free
> cleanings until February means he is not - for all practical purposes,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> dentist, and would stay with him if he'd been honest and not dicked me
> around.

Now that you seem to be giving him what he wants (paying for the crown),
insist on getting yours and your wife's cleanings-- use the crown as a
bargaining chip.

Hell-- all he has to do is tell one of his hygienists to stay later one
night and _do_ them.

SP

SP
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Amatus Cremona - 05 Dec 2005 14:30 GMT
> I find it very hard to believe he gets $1200 for a crown. Isn't it
> usually more like about what I paid: $500-600? So that would make him a
> liar. I may have someone call in a few weeks and ask what he charges
> for the same thing...

Here in the Western Suburbs of Chicago, I get more than that if I also build
up the tooth underneath the crown.  For the crown alone, it is close to $lK.
I understand that overheads are a lot more in LA, so I would expect you
would pay more .

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> Thanks to all you guys for replying. I feel that my opinion was/is
> right, that the guy is a con artist and a liar. Many other little
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> Again, I appreciate that there are good dentists on this board who help
> me figure this stuff out. Thank you.
Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> I agree with everything Dr. Bornfeld said.
>
> Dartos

I'm afraid _I_ don't... I am more inclined to subscribe to the W_B
school of pulpal health when it comes to crowns. If the drilling took
you close to the nerve, I would strongly recommend getting the RCT done
NOW, while the nerve is relatively healthy and easy to deal with, then
later with calcifications an a rubberized texture, etc. You may lose
your insurance, and have to re-do the case from start to finish with an
added RCT at that time.

> > Thanks a lot, for your input. I kind of suspected that a
> > "preventative" root canal was not a good idea. Anyone else here
> > concur?

Yes

>>or disagree?

Yes

Isn't this wonderful? BUTTTT: remember this: the tooth needs a crown
why? Because we need it to look nice in your smile?

_No_

Because caries, etc. have damaged it. Is it not reasonable to assume
that the nerve may still be alive albeit injured by its past life?. And
that this may just be the procedure that will push it over into
irreversible pulpitis?

W_B says numbers of procedures.
Ray Berlotti says quantity of reduction.

It would be wonderful to wave the magic wand and see into the future as
to which ones will act up and which ones will live happily ever after
with crowns on them.

But we can't...

I say, RTC the tooth first. No matter if your guy is a shyster.

Sorry I had to disagree, but there it is.

If you don't want an RTC, I suggest getting a gold onlay; less invasive
preparation, so _maybe_ less chance of further damaging the nerve.

SP

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Steven Bornfeld - 03 Dec 2005 02:24 GMT
> I'm afraid _I_ don't... I am more inclined to subscribe to the W_B
> school of pulpal health when it comes to crowns. If the drilling took
> you close to the nerve, I would strongly recommend getting the RCT done
> NOW, while the nerve is relatively healthy and easy to deal with, then
> later with calcifications an a rubberized texture, etc.

    Calcifications...rubberized texture--don't be such a sissy!

Steve

 You may lose
> your insurance, and have to re-do the case from start to finish with an
> added RCT at that time.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> SP
Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 03:58 GMT
>       Calcifications...rubberized texture--don't be such a sissy!
>
> Steve

Maybe _you_ find 'em easy to get around, but _I_ don't....

I've no ultrasound and I only have a basic kit of ProFile GT's and
Brassler Sequence files.

<the sissy goes into the corner and sulks....>

SP
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Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 03 Dec 2005 15:37 GMT
>>      Calcifications...rubberized texture--don't be such a sissy!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> SP

    No, I don't find them easy, and most get referred out.  However, if
I've made a mistake by not doing an endo before a crown (which has
happened very occasionally) I usually find out about it within a few
months, or at least within a year or two.  Would it have been easier
before?  Perhaps, but I seldom see any radiographic difference in the
appearance of the canals in that time.

Steve

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Stovepipe - 04 Dec 2005 00:03 GMT
> Would it have been easier
> before?  

Well, sure; if you need to take photos to show you where your canal
entrances are, it is alot easier if there is no crown in the way.

>Perhaps, but I seldom see any radiographic difference in the
> appearance of the canals in that time.

True... that is why W_B doesn't ask questions before hand. If the tooth
is doubtful, he does it.

> Steve

SP
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W_B - 04 Dec 2005 22:55 GMT
>>>      Calcifications...rubberized texture--don't be such a sissy!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>Steve

As much as I hate to say it, perhaps you are not looking close enough.
Radiographs usually show pulpal pathology quite well, we're not only
looking for a periapical radiolucency. Symptoms as well can give you
a hint to lood closer.

--
W_B

wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
Steven Bornfeld - 04 Dec 2005 23:14 GMT
>>>>     Calcifications...rubberized texture--don't be such a sissy!
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> --
> W_B

    True.

Steve

> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
> Take out the G'RBAGE
Stovepipe - 05 Dec 2005 02:23 GMT
> As much as I hate to say it, perhaps you are not looking close enough.
> Radiographs usually show pulpal pathology quite well, we're not only
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> --
> W_B

I would go so far as to say that we are RARELY looking for periapical
lucencies. We are trying to catch them at the sick nerve stage. This is
why one must _lood closer_.

There should be a 4th year course in advances radiographic
interpretation, called 'Looding Closer'...

SP
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Amatus Cremona - 05 Dec 2005 14:38 GMT
> I would go so far as to say that we are RARELY looking for periapical
> lucencies. We are trying to catch them at the sick nerve stage. This is
> why one must _lood closer_.
>
> There should be a 4th year course in advances radiographic
> interpretation, called 'Looding Closer'...

Now that is just lood !
W_B - 05 Dec 2005 16:32 GMT
>> I would go so far as to say that we are RARELY looking for periapical
>> lucencies. We are trying to catch them at the sick nerve stage. This is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Now that is just lood !

And rood !
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B - 05 Dec 2005 16:22 GMT
>> As much as I hate to say it, perhaps you are not looking close enough.
>> Radiographs usually show pulpal pathology quite well, we're not only
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>SP

OK, ok, at least we are not looting closer.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
The Webby - 05 Dec 2005 16:26 GMT
[cut]
> >There should be a 4th year course in advances radiographic
> >interpretation, called 'Looding Closer'...
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> W_B

More evidence that peace on the planet may depend upon the fonts you use
(or better reading specs)  ;-)

TW
W_B - 05 Dec 2005 16:42 GMT
>[cut]
>> >There should be a 4th year course in advances radiographic
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>TW

My newsreader displays the font that I choose no matter what font the
poster sends.

It's all just plain text.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
The Webby - 05 Dec 2005 16:45 GMT
[cut]

> >More evidence that peace on the planet may depend upon the fonts you use
> >(or better reading specs)  ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> It's all just plain text.

First comes the default then comes the choice of font.  I had chosen one
that seemed "good enough" but needed to find one that better suited my
visual needs...  or who knows what could happen with various typos??  ;-)

TW
> --
>
> W_B
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 05 Dec 2005 14:36 GMT
> W_B says numbers of procedures.
> Ray Berlotti says quantity of reduction.

Amatus says the amount time the tooth does not have the final restoration on
it and the type of material used to restore it.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> I agree with everything Dr. Bornfeld said.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> SP
Steven Bornfeld - 01 Dec 2005 03:18 GMT
> I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
> My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
> intend to. But now I'm not sure I'll trust a non-insurance dentist,
> either.
Amatus Cremona - 01 Dec 2005 14:58 GMT
>I went in today for a crown, that is, preparing for the crown.
> My Delta PMI insurance is supposed to cover this so I was pretty sure
> it was going to be in the neighborhood of $275. But when I got there
> he told me it was going to be $525.

The prophesy came true.

> Let me clarify that I know Delta PMI is a rip-off; but this is the end
> of the year and I had already had this dentist examine me and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> doing (??), and he's a member of both the ADA and the state
> association for around 14 years, for what that's worth.

Just because the office might be mis-leading you on billing, does not mean
they are doing poor work.  They might do fine work.

> Anyway, he says, "Look, it's like this: I send my lab work out to a
> lab that I work with and the prices Delta gave you are based on
> Delta's labs which I don't work with. If you want to have it done at
> that price you would have to make an appointment with another dentist,
> and that would be a shame since we're here today, ready to do it. I
> used to do it with their lab, but I don't any more."

Delta does not have any lab's.  They do not specify which labs to use.  None
of that is true.  The dentist is free to choose any lab he wishes to work
with.

> I could see I was being snowed, but the fact is, I DID want to get it
> done today, and I figured by the time I dealt with the hassle of
> getting these x-rays transferred over to another dentist, or made
> another 2 appointments with another dentist before he'd do it, it was
> just too much trouble to go somewhere else to get it done. In other
> words, this guy had me by the balls.

Actually, you had him since it would have cost him more to have the empty
chair than it would have cost you to transfer records.

> But I said, "Tell me, doctor: Does this insurance really do me any
> good, or would it cost the same if I came in without the insurance?"
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "Porcelain margin"   75
> "Noble or high noble metal" 200

The $30 charge make no sense.  The plan may not have any coverage for
porcelain on molars, so he is charging you a premium to have porcelain.  His
lab fee will be about $10 more for the porcelain.  However, this is the
hidden part of the bait-and-switch.  If he had disucssed this difference
with you ahead of time, it would have been more respectful.  The lab will
charge him an extra $10-30 to make a porcelain margin.  You probably don't
need a porcelain margin on a molar.  I personally, made all my PFM crowns
the same way and just figured a porcelain margin into the fee for every
crown.  Charging more for nobile metal is the other part of the
bait-and-switch.  Again, I have never made a crown with anything except
high-noble metal, so it is just part of my standard fee.  So, the dentist is
charging you $525, plus the $500 he gets from Delta.  He now gets his real
fee (I doubt he really charges $1200 for a single crown without a build-up).
Sounds like bait-and-switch, oh, wait I already said that, sorry.

> After the procedure, he tells me, "I had to go very deep. I did not
> reach the pulp, but I still think you should get a root canal, just as
> a preventative, so that you don't need one later and have to drill
> through the crown to do it. If I were you, I'd schedule it now and get
> it done before I do the crown, just to prevent needing it later."

Adding in the RCT would be more bait-and-switch, but you later said he was
going to refer you to an endodontist for the RCT, so I cannot say that.  He
should be able to tell ahead of time if a prophylactic RCT would be
indicated.  Personally, I think that is almost never needed.  W_B may
disagree, but that is okay.

> He came back after he did the impression and said, "So, do you want to
> schedule the root canal or not?"

If he was going to do the RCT, he should have stopped and finished the RCT,
first, then return to the crown preparation.  Fit would be better that way.
And, why did he come back after the impression, he was supposed to make the
impression and be there while it is in your mouth.

> So then he put in the temporary filling or whatever it is, and then I
> went to pay the $525 and make an appointment for the crown to be
> installed in 2 weeks.

Hopefully you got a temporary crown which covers the entire tooth, is smooth
and comfortable to chew on.  Not some junky "tin-can".

> I said, "Well that's strange because he just told me something
> different..."

Strange indeed

> What's up with this guy? Is he a TOTAL CON ARTIST, or what?

You are smart enough to figure it out.

> Did he change his mind because he realized insurance would not approve
> a "preventative" root canal?

Insurance company will pay for the RCT regardless.  They will pay whatever
their rate is.  In the PPO situation, the payment will be low, so I would
expect him to refer yours out, but do it himself for the regular fee
patients.

> Is it acceptable to prescribe a "preventative" root canal if one
> drills close to the pulp?

Sometimes.

> I specifically recall him saying "It's close enough to the pulp that I
> would go ahead and do it if I were you, but it's not NECESSARY." But
> he was definitely pushing for it and I said, "And what is the downside
> if I DON'T do the root canal now?" And he said "Then you might have to
> drill through the crown later, which would perhaps weaken it and lead
> to later chipping or cracking it".

There is no way to offer you any advice on this without seeing you IRL.

> I must say that I hate going to dentists and feeling I'm being sold
> sh.t I don't need. I hate going to a dentist and feeling like I'm
> dealing with a slimy used car salesman.

Give up on the HMO, the PPO and the discount plans then.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

W_B - 01 Dec 2005 16:22 GMT
>> After the procedure, he tells me, "I had to go very deep. I did not
>> reach the pulp, but I still think you should get a root canal, just as
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>indicated.  Personally, I think that is almost never needed.  W_B may
>disagree, but that is okay.

Hey now !
I don't do 'preventive' endo.
If I see pathology such as constricted canals,
decreased pulp chamber size, pulp stones, etc.... (long list)

*Then* endo is indicated.

I still believe that a pulp can only survive 2 - 3
major traumas before going into irreversible pulpitis.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 01 Dec 2005 16:35 GMT
> Hey now !
> I don't do 'preventive' endo.
> If I see pathology such as constricted canals,
> decreased pulp chamber size, pulp stones, etc.... (long list)

You are right, I should have been more specific

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>>> After the procedure, he tells me, "I had to go very deep. I did not
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> I still believe that a pulp can only survive 2 - 3
> major traumas before going into irreversible pulpitis.

How many times of all-a youse drilled into an upper (or lower) molar (or
even a _front_ molar...?...) to find that you have two or three normal
canals (the buccal ones)

... and one palatal canal that stinks to high heaven when you broach it
out? Yet the tooth responds to thermal stimulus, perhaps even
'normally'... and it might go on for years like that... but it is SICK.

I think that W_B is right: teeth that have been through the war should
be put out of their misery before being crowned.

Onlays.... maybe that is another story.

SP
Signature

Take out the TRAASH to reply

george1234 - 01 Dec 2005 22:45 GMT
>Just because the office might be mis-leading you on billing, does not mean
>they are doing poor work.  They might do fine work.

And that's one of the real tensions.The work is probably good,
possibly only marginally necessary, and motivated by the chance of
gain ( your loss his gain)
JimSocal - 02 Dec 2005 09:48 GMT
>Delta does not have any lab's.  They do not specify which labs to use.  None
>of that is true.  The dentist is free to choose any lab he wishes to work
>with.

Good to know. So he is clearly a liar.

>Actually, you had him since it would have cost him more to have the empty
>chair than it would have cost you to transfer records.

Yes, but he had me because I had time off from work and was ready to
get it done; I had spent 30 min. in traffic driving over there and
parking, and I want to get it over with.

He now gets his real
>fee (I doubt he really charges $1200 for a single crown without a build-up).

Sorry, what does that mean? "single crown without a build-up"?

>Hopefully you got a temporary crown which covers the entire tooth, is smooth
>and comfortable to chew on.  Not some junky "tin-can".

I don't know. It seemed pretty comfortable yesterday, but now it is
sticking my tongue and I feel I need to go in and get it adjusted.

>Give up on the HMO, the PPO and the discount plans then.
I plan to.
Amatus Cremona - 05 Dec 2005 14:34 GMT
> He now gets his real
>>fee (I doubt he really charges $1200 for a single crown without a
>>build-up).
>
> Sorry, what does that mean? "single crown without a build-up"?

The build-up is the filling, posts, pins and whatever else is needed, to
make the stump of tooth acceptable to hold a crown on it.  Sometimes, it is
a small filling, othertimes, it is completely replacing all of the tooth
above the gum-line, some of the tooth below the gum tissues, and placing a
post and couple of pins as well.  Unless we are talking CEREC.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>>Delta does not have any lab's.  They do not specify which labs to use.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>Give up on the HMO, the PPO and the discount plans then.
> I plan to.
Stovepipe - 03 Dec 2005 00:21 GMT
> > I must say that I hate going to dentists and feeling I'm being sold
> > sh.t I don't need. I hate going to a dentist and feeling like I'm
> > dealing with a slimy used car salesman.
>
> Give up on the HMO, the PPO and the discount plans then.

Jim, you should listen to Amatus. Before going to Jail, he used to do a
helluva lot of these bait and switch jobs, getting rich beyond belief in
the process and,.... he..... um...... wrote a book,.... and...

Sorry, Amatus,,,, should-a kept my mouth shut.....    ;-)

SP
Signature

Take out the TRAASH to reply

Amatus Cremona - 05 Dec 2005 14:40 GMT
> Jim, you should listen to Amatus. Before going to Jail, he used to do a
> helluva lot of these bait and switch jobs, getting rich beyond belief in
> the process and,.... he..... um...... wrote a book,.... and...
>
> Sorry, Amatus,,,, should-a kept my mouth shut.....    ;-)

Expect a visit from Luca Brazzi
 
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