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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / December 2005Braces Without Parental Signature
My Ex-husbands girlfriend recently took our 13 yrs. old daughter to a orthodontist- signed consent forms, hippa and contractual forms t have procedures completed without my prior knowledge or parenta consent The day this occurred both my ex-husband and myself were in court Our 13yr. old daughter had no information for contact purposes an ex-husband refused to cooperate with information until her brace came apart within 48 hours after procedure was completed b orthodontist Emergency numbers were called-found on a bottle that the orthodonti company supplied for rinsing- staff not available to repair denta work on our daughter during the weekend and could not tell me who applied the braces The next business day I found the orthodontist who completed th procedure- he is a Senior Partner in the firm- checked our daughter records and said the girlfriend misrepresented herself to him as "legal stepparent" which he understands now that she is not marrie to my ex-husband and had no right to sign any of the dental forms fo procedure. The orthodontist and I discussed the lack of parental signatures an permission (we have joint legal custody in NY)- and his response was How would he know" . To my knowledge- the orthodontist would b calling my ex-husband in to sign all of the consent, hippa an contractual forms that his girlfriend signed- originals the nex business day. The orthodontist wants me to sign a release of records form that h had his staff write before I pick up our daughters records. Th orthodontist is going to continue working our daughter he state unless someone tells him not to.. He understands that my attorney will not let me sign anything withou reviewing the release form which we do not still have at this time. The orthodontist insists that "they"- the girlfriend and m ex-husband made a mistake and- the second business day we discusse the release form he says he talked with my ex-husband and he ha "Verbal" permission to complete procedures on our daughter befor they were completed Please advise > Please advise. Advise about what for God's sake? In your zeal to make life difficult for your ex-husband, you are making life hell for your daughter and even involving innocent bystanders into the furball. Work things out directy with your ex, and get a life. Vaughn > > Please advise. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vaughn 110 percent agreement here, Madame. It sounds like notwithstanding the bitching between yourself and your ex, your daughter needs braces. The only advice I can offer is to get a second opinion from another ortho to insure the treatment plan is correct and reasonable. It also sounds like your lawyer is running your life. Good luck SP  SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Advise about what for God's sake? In your zeal to make life difficult > for your ex-husband, you are making life hell for your daughter and even > involving innocent bystanders into the furball. Work things out directly > with your ex, and get a life. Vaughn never fails to impress me with the wisdom of his postings. Well said ! Signature/ Amatus / > >> Please advise. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vaughn > My Ex-husbands girlfriend recently took our 13 yrs. old daughter to an > orthodontist- signed consent forms, hippa and contractual forms to [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Please advise. I can't see how the orthodontist can be blamed--I see no evidence that he didn't act in good faith. It is clear that your ex's gf had no authority to consent to your daughter's treatment. However, whether your ex husband may depends upon your custody agreement. This obviously is a legal matter, and totally separate from the suitability of any orthodontic treatment. Steve My advice is to not make your problems your dentist's, physician's, orthodontist's, etc. I have been used as a ping pong ball before when two ex's decided to go to war using their children as ammo. It sucks. I had one parent telling me to do work, some which was elective, then, once completed, told me I needed to get the other half of the money from her ex, who told me he had no money. It sounds like your daughter needed braces, and the orthodontist acted in good faith when someone brought her in for treatment. If she shouldn't have been brought for care, your problem should be with your ex and his girlfriend...don't make the orthodontist the scapegoat for doing needed work. T > My Ex-husbands girlfriend recently took our 13 yrs. old daughter to an > orthodontist- signed consent forms, hippa and contractual forms to [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Please advise. >My Ex-husbands girlfriend recently took our 13 yrs. old daughter to an >orthodontist- signed consent forms, hippa and contractual forms to >have procedures completed without my prior knowledge or parental >consent. I'd sue her butt for that and more ...... It also involves butts ...... >The day this occurred both my ex-husband and myself were in court. >Our 13yr. old daughter had no information for contact purposes and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Please advise. Thank-you for the feedback from everyone. Making an informed decisio when it comes to joint custody can be difficult when you have parent that refuses to cooperate in what may be in the best interes of the child How would anyone make an informed decision without prio knowledge-whethor that be a medical, dental or other? Th orthodontist didn't even have the accurate information to make a informed decision in our case I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriat questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves >I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriate >questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves. I question why you came to SMD for legal advice. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Thank-you for the feedback from everyone. Making an informed decision > when it comes to joint custody can be difficult when you have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriate > questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves. What questions should we have asked? I think I fully understand the situation. Your ex and his girlfriend initiated care without your consent and you are angry. Is that correct? I am just puzzled why you seem to have an issue with the dentist. You seem to be taking issue with the actions of a provider who acted in good faith when your real beef should be with your ex...who, from your version, did NOT act in good faith...making a decision that should have been one you both made. I can well understand there are great difficulties in such relationships, but blaming a dentist (which is what I seemed to get from your original post) because your spouse acted irresponsibly is not fair. T > How would anyone make an informed decision without priorknowledge-whethor that be a medical, dental or other? See, Penny? The lawyer is still running your decision making process. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply "I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriate questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves." And I am replying with: I may have missed this information somewhere inside the thread. I apologize for not reading carefully enough, if that is the case. I have a few questions about this matter. To Penny: 1. Did you and your ex-husband have a plan for managing your daughter's dental and medical needs while you were married? 2. Did the two of you discuss the idea of "orthodontic care" for her at some point in her life? 3. Is this treatment plan something your daughter wanted to do? 4. Is this treatment plan something that was initiated against your daughter's wishes? 5. Has your daughter complained about being taken to a dentist by her father's girlfriend? 6. If you were still married to your ex-husband, would your daughter be under the care of an orthodontist today? Would you and her father be in agreement about the treatment if married? Orthodontic care is ordinarily considered elective. It is my opinion, as a parent of two grown children, that orthodontics is an emotionally based therapeutic in many cases. There are kids who *beg* to get their teeth straightened to perfection and there are kids who *beg* not to have this done "for" them. If you don't have a cooperative patient, orthodontic care can be a nightmare for the patient. The adolescent is complex. It is generally a good time to learn to pick your battles carefully. As the saying goes, "I'm here and you're there." My gut feeling is that the child wanted the orthodontic care and willingly went to the dentist with her father's girlfriend. I have trouble imagining the woman dragging a screaming 13 year old into an orthodontist's office and emerging with a mouth full of "stuff" screaming "take it off!!! I didn't agree to this!!!" Yet, a stoic child might be feeling this way in spite of outward appearances. The patient's wishes; the patient being a 13 year old girl, should be taken very seriously yet I don't have any sense that all of this is about the child's wishes. And as I wrote, maybe I missed this information ... If the family didn't communicate when together, they may not do any better of a job when divorce is the outcome. What is in the best interest of the child may not be what will happen with this young girl. She may well grow up in a war zone because some people will not put their child first. I'm not saying this is the case, I am saying that there are plenty of cases out there where this is the case and the outcome paints a sad image in my mind. Webby "I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriate questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves." And I am replying with: I may have missed this information somewhere inside the thread. I apologize for not reading carefully enough, if that is the case. I have a few questions about this matter. To Penny: 1. Did you and your ex-husband have a plan for managing your daughter's dental and medical needs while you were married? 2. Did the two of you discuss the idea of "orthodontic care" for her at some point in her life? 3. Is this treatment plan something your daughter wanted to do? 4. Is this treatment plan something that was initiated against your daughter's wishes? 5. Has your daughter complained about being taken to a dentist by her father's girlfriend? 6. If you were still married to your ex-husband, would your daughter be under the care of an orthodontist today? Would you and her father be in agreement about the treatment if married? Orthodontic care is ordinarily considered elective. It is my opinion, as a parent of two grown children, that orthodontics is an emotionally based therapeutic in many cases. There are kids who *beg* to get their teeth straightened to perfection and there are kids who *beg* not to have this done "for" them. If you don't have a cooperative patient, orthodontic care can be a nightmare for the patient. The adolescent is complex. It is generally a good time to learn to pick your battles carefully. As the saying goes, "I'm here and you're there." My gut feeling is that the child wanted the orthodontic care and willingly went to the dentist with her father's girlfriend. I have trouble imagining the woman dragging a screaming 13 year old into an orthodontist's office and emerging with a mouth full of "stuff" screaming "take it off!!! I didn't agree to this!!!" Yet, a stoic child might be feeling this way in spite of outward appearances. The patient's wishes; the patient being a 13 year old girl, should be taken very seriously yet I don't have any sense that all of this is about the child's wishes. And as I wrote, maybe I missed this information ... If the family didn't communicate when together, they may not do any better of a job when divorce is the outcome. What is in the best interest of the child may not be what will happen with this young girl. She may well grow up in a war zone because some people will not put their child first. I'm not saying this is the case, I am saying that there are plenty of cases out there where this is the case and the outcome paints a sad image in my mind. Webby Informed consent usually applies to the patient not the practitioner. Bringing the kid to the orthodontist and paying for treatment indicates implied consent. Who paid for the treatment? SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply | Thank-you for the feedback from everyone. Making an informed decision | when it comes to joint custody can be difficult when you have a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriate | questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves. I think what everyone seems to be overlooking here is not the fac that this child was getting braces- I'm sure as a parent that yo were fully aware of whether or not she needed them. Its the fac that as a parent you were not even given the right to consent or b there for your child when she received treatment. This can be a emotional experience for most children and having the option to b there for your child should have been given. I have an 12 year ol daughter and I remember how dramatic this type of ordeal was fo her Secondly and more importantly, it bothers me to think that someon misrepresented themselves to be a legal step parent when in fact the were not and thus had access and ability to sign all legal document allowing for treatment as well as the possible dangers or risk associated with such treatment. The child's own mother was not give access or the opportunity to view this information. She wasn't eve told it was going to take place, and the child's father couldn't b bothered to be there himself for such an important procedure If this child had problems after the braces were administere wouldn't you be upset that you didn't have the opportunity to ask th dentist questions or view his credentials or references. Afterall it what you and I do when we go to a doctor. Why does a parent who ha joint legal custody have to have her parental rights denied o superceeded by that of the girlfriend? Just because of the father' say so? That's ridiculous. The reasons courts appoint joint leaga custody is to grant both parents access to making informed decision about the health and welfare of their children. I think in this case Penny has a vaild concern. The question is wha can be done in the future to protect your child and you from no being properly informed about any medical or dental treatments neede for any reason. If the girlfriend has had no problem with presentin herself as a legal step parent when in fact she isn't for this typ of non- emergency what else would she do A lawyer is the only way to deal with this as it sounds like Penny i not dealing with a very cooperative ex who is legally supposed to b in communication with her about issues concerning their child I hope someone steps in to help her and gives her the advice sh needs Dr Oh god ! another angry divorcee. Signature/ Amatus / >I think what everyone seems to be overlooking here is not the fact > that this child was getting braces- I'm sure as a parent that you [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > needs. > Drp >Oh god ! another angry divorcee. You mean there's another kind ?! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > I think what everyone seems to be overlooking here is not the fact > that this child was getting braces- I'm sure as a parent that you [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > needs. > Drp Yes, the crux is that this is a legal issue. The defensiveness on the part of the dentists is just what our responsibility is in this case. We as dentists should not need to get legal advice ourselves and a copy of the custody agreement in order to determine whether we can treat a patient legally. Generally, written or oral consent from a parent or legal guardian should be enough. If someone has misrepresented themselves as a legal guardian, then the fault lies with that person, and not the dentist. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > The reasons courts appoint joint leagalcustody is to grant both parents access to making informed decisionsabout the health and welfare of their children. I think in this case Penny has a vaild concern. The question is whatcan be done in the future to protect your child and you from notbeing properly informed about any medical or dental treatments needed First, I would appreciate it if you all using gateways would set your browsers to limit line length to 80 characters, like it is here. Second, wrt the avove: the child is thirteen years old; the girlfriend is the ONLY one in this relationship who had the drive to finally get the girl to the ortho. The other two seem to either not care or would prefer to put bitching before treatment. Though the method leaves things to be desired, it was the right decision, IMO. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Amatus Cremonawrote [quote:1b3b23d151 > Advise about what for God's sake? In your zeal to make lif difficul > for your ex-husband, you are making life hell for your daughter an eve > involving innocent bystanders into the furball. Work things ou directl > with your ex, and get a life Vaughn never fails to impress me with the wisdom of his postings. Well said I'm not impressed -- Amatu "Vaughn" <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote in message news:6vjif.97607$qk4.51637@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.. > "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i messag > news:P7udnbyceoic4hTeRVn_vQ@giganews.com.. > Please advise > > Advise about what for God's sake? In your zeal to make lif difficul > for your ex-husband, you are making life hell for your daughter an eve > involving innocent bystanders into the furball. Work things ou direct > with your ex, and get a life > > Vaugh > > [/quote:1b3b23d151 > I'm not impressed. You need to get over your hurt feelings, your feelings of anger over the ex having a girl-friend and figure out what is good for the kid. Nowhere did you mention that the orthodontist was treating the kid poorly or that the child was abused or neglected. You only complained because the _girlfriend_ was involved. So what? Ask to meet with the orthodontist to review the treatment plan so that you can be supportive during treatment as well as the father. And, DO NOT make this one more thing to fight the ex over. Otherwise, your hatred for the father and his new lady-friend will just mess up your child's life. Don't let your divorce mess up the kid. Be mature and loving for the sake of the child. Signature/ Amatus / >> Amatus Cremonawrote: > [quote:1b3b23d151] [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> [/quote:1b3b23d151] > Vaughnwrote "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i message > news:P7udnbyceoic4hTeRVn_vQ@giganews.com.. > Please advise Advise about what for God's sake? In your zeal to make lif difficult for your ex-husband, you are making life hell for your daughter and eve involving innocent bystanders into the furball. Work things out directy wit your ex, and get a life Vaugh I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectua value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps.. >[/quote:096e7a2c8a > I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectual > value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps... Why? You gave us plenty of information. I didn't ask, but your ex may richly deserve the grief that you are trying to give him. I did not need to ask because the real issue here is that you are using your daughter and other innocent bystanders as weapons against him. My opinion remains unchanged even if you don't happen to like it: Work things out with your ex. and in any case do not incorporate your daughter and other innocent third parties into your confilcts with your ex-husband. Urge him to do the same, particularly in regard to your mutual child. Vaughn > I didn't ask, but your ex may richly deserve the grief that you are > trying to give him. I did not need to ask because the real issue here is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your ex-husband. Urge him to do the same, particularly in regard to your > mutual child. Again Vaughn makes his point in great wisdom. Signature/ Amatus / > >> I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectual [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Vaughn > I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectual > value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps... Once again...what questions should we ask? Are we missing something? You are the one seeking answers, it is your responsibility to clearly state your issue not our responsibility to draw that information out of you. This type of conflict may be new to you, and I feel badly that you appear to be involved in such a contentious situation, but most dentists have probably been involved (as the ping pong ball) in similar battles before. T >> I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectual >> value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >T It's been tried, but Homey don't play that. Penny is probably and anti-dentite ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Vaughnwrote "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i message > news:O4-dnWJbBY5mvBHeRVn_vA@giganews.com.. > > I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectua > value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps.. Why? You gave us plenty of information I didn't ask, but your ex may richly deserve the grief that yo are trying to give him. I did not need to ask because the real issue here i that you are using your daughter and other innocent bystanders as weapons agains him. My opinion remains unchanged even if you don't happen to like it: Wor things out with your ex. and in any case do not incorporate your daughter an other innocent a the same, particularly in regard to your mutual child Vaugh Working things out with the ex-husband obviously has not worked in th past otherwise we wouldn't be in this position with our children Should the girlfriend, ex and the orthodontist and myself spoke before any procedures were completed there would be an agreement i place In regards to "using" our daughter thats not my style nor my intent The orthodontist has a responsibility to both parents or lega guardians in any case that involves a child. Informing th parent/legal guardian about the risks involved with any procedur before it is done... I understand about acting in good faith. This applies to many parent in my position as well as Dental professionals Penn > In regards to "using" our daughter that's not my style nor my intent. Sorry, but we were not born yesterday. Everything you have said so far points to "using" the daughter to hurt the ex. Signature/ Amatus / >> Vaughnwrote: > "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Penny > The orthodontist has a responsibility to both parents or legalguardians in any case that involves a child. Informing theparent/legal guardian about the risks involved with any procedurebefore it is done... Yet, you don't even know the treatment plan. Talk to the Otho first. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Tony Badwrote "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i messag > news:O4-dnWJbBY5mvBHeRVn_vA@giganews.com.. > > I invite you to offer an opinion that may be of more intellectua > value to myself and other viewers. Ask a question perhaps.. Once again...what questions should we ask? Are we missing something You ar the one seeking answers, it is your responsibility to clearly stat you issue not our responsibility to draw that information out of you This type of conflict may be new to you, and I feel badly that yo appear t be involved in such a contentious situation, but most dentists hav probabl been involved (as the ping pong ball) in similar battles before T[/quote:f0d0e43da2 It is not about the conflict. The issue could be divided into tw parts. The first being moral the second being legal. Again, braces without parental permission seems to be the clearl stated issue in the topic area. Penn > Again, braces without parental permission seems to be the clearly > stated issue in the topic area. If the father has custody and provides permission, then you only have an issue with the court, not the dentist. Get beyond your anger and think about the kid instead. Signature/ Amatus / >> Tony Badwrote: > "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Penny > It is not about the conflict. The issue could be divided into two > parts. The first being moral the second being legal. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Penny An orthodontist performs needed care based on the approval of someone who represents or misrepresents themselves as a guardian. I see no moral or legal problem here other than with the person who may have misrepresented themselves as having the authority to make a care decision. I am not sure what you expect? If the girlfriend had brought your child to an emergency room and they delayed care while trying to determine whether the person had legal authority to authorize care then you'd be complaining about the moral and legal failings for NON-action. The dentist has apparently performed needed care on a child based on the approval of someone who indicated they were a guardian, where is the problem? T Where is carabelli when we need him???? Webby Playing golf, visiting with family, or smoking a pork butt. D > Where is carabelli when we need him???? > > Webby Could never get one of those things to stay lit. >Playing golf, visiting with family, or smoking a pork butt. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Webby -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Could never get one of those things to stay lit. You need to roll it tighter...or so I hear. T >> Could never get one of those things to stay lit. > >You need to roll it tighter...or so I hear. > >T Ahhh, that's the ticket 8^]] -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Webbywrote Penny wrote > "I question those of you whom assume without asking the appropriat > questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Yes. I was the primary caretaker of all medical and dental needs. E never went to any appointments- and evidently still does not. > 2. Did the two of you discuss the idea of "orthodontic care" for he a > some point in her life > > Again, implementing a plan would have been ideal if your workin with a cooperative adult regarding the childrens needs > 3. Is this treatment plan something your daughter wanted to do > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > 5. Has your daughter complained about being taken to a dentist b he > father's girlfriend > > The girlfriend has blocked all calls incoming to ex's residence. do not have any communication with our daughter at this time unles her father allows her to phone. It's all about control and power wit the girlfriend and ex. Following up reasonable phone contact per ou divorce agreement in Family Court > 6. If you were still married to your ex-husband, would your daughte b > under the care of an orthodontist today? Would you and her fathe b > in agreement about the treatment if married > > Our daughter has seen a dentist regularily and has no cavities. can't assume any orthodontic care would have taken place since w never had a referral from her dentist for this procedure in th past > Orthodontic care is ordinarily considered elective. It is m opinion > as a parent of two grown children, that orthodontics is a emotionall > based therapeutic in many cases. There are kids who *beg* to ge thei > teeth straightened to perfection and there are kids who *beg* no t > have this done "for" them. If you don't have a cooperativ patient > orthodontic care can be a nightmare for the patient. The adolescen i > complex. It is generally a good time to learn to pick your battle > carefully > > As the saying goes, "I'm here and you're there." My gut feeling i > that the child wanted the orthodontic care and willingly went t th > dentist with her father's girlfriend. I have trouble imagining th > woman dragging a screaming 13 year old into an orthodontist' offic > and emerging with a mouth full of "stuff" screaming "take it off!! > didn't agree to this!!!" Yet, a stoic child might be feeling thi wa > in spite of outward appearances. The patient's wishes; the patien > being a 13 year old girl, should be taken very seriously yet don' > have any sense that all of this is about the child's wishes. And a > wrote, maybe I missed this information .. > > What your missing is this: An extremely controlling and manipulativ da > If the family didn't communicate when together, they may not do an > better of a job when divorce is the outcome. What is in the bes > interest of the child may not be what will happen with this youn girl > She may well grow up in a war zone because some people will no pu > their child first. I'm not saying this is the case, I am sayin tha > there are plenty of cases out there where this is the case and th > outcome paints a sad image in my mind. > > Communication is key. What is in the best interest of any child i that the parents do attempt to inform one another on medical, denta and academic issues. The image is sad for our daughter > Webb > The girlfriend has blocked all calls incoming to ex's residence. I > do not have any communication with our daughter at this time unless > her father allows her to phone. It's all about control and power with > the girlfriend and ex. Following up reasonable phone contact per our > divorce agreement in Family Court. Hold it a minute here ! You are saying you do not have any custody of the child at all ? But, are complaining that the ex is getting the kid to some reasonable care ? Signature/ Amatus / >> Webbywrote: > Penny wrote: [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > and academic issues. The image is sad for our daughter. >> Webby > Roy Brownwrote Informed consent usually applies to the patient not the practitioner Bringing > the kid to the orthodontist and paying for treatment indicate implied consent. > Who paid for the treatment > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The orthodontist faxed me a contractual form signed by both th girlfriend and the ex-husband. Girlfriend signed the day o procedure-ex signed six days later after orthodontist realized he ha no parental signatures for procedures to be completed. Downpayment o $996. The rest in installments of $166 for 24 additional payments > "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i message > news:i4KdnciSV72j5BbeRVn_vQ@giganews.com.. > > | Thank-you for the feedback from everyone. Making an informe decisio > | when it comes to joint custody can be difficult when you have > | parent that refuses to cooperate in what may be in the bes interes > | of the child > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > | I question those of you whom assume without asking th appropriat > | questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves One parent's signature is on the consent form and is paying for treatment. What is your problem? SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply |> Roy Brownwrote: | Informed consent usually applies to the patient not the practitioner. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] | appropriate | > | questions in order to make an informed decision yourselves. > Amatus Cremonawrote [quote:545c985db5 > Again, braces without parental permission seems to be the clearl > stated issue in the topic area If the father has custody and provides permission, then you only hav an issue with the court, not the dentist. Get beyond your anger an think about the kid instead Amatus The father and I have joint legal custody-the question remains how ca a healthcare provider treat a minor without parental consent. Parental consent was not given at the time of the procedure with th orthodontist. Amatus, why do you feel the need to present yourself as the judge an jury regarding anyones emotions? Because you are in fact not accurat in my case. Penn "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i message news:He6dnV5IAK8W7hDeRVn_vQ@giganews.com.. > Tony Badwrote > "Penny" <daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote i [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Once again...what questions should we ask? Are we missin something > You ar > the one seeking answers, it is your responsibility to clearly stat [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > probabl > been involved (as the ping pong ball) in similar battles before It is not about the conflict. The issue could be divided into tw parts. The first being moral the second being legal Again, braces without parental permission seems to be the clearl stated issue in the topic area Penn [/quote:545c985db5][/quote:545c985db5 This thread is so poorly annotated that it is almost impossible to follow via Google Groups. I'm having to guess most of the time about who wrote what. I'm not going to clip anything from the thread in at this point. And I still don't know anything about the wishes of the young patient. Does she or doesn't she want this treatment? Webby > This thread is so poorly annotated that it is almost impossible to > follow via Google Groups. I'm having to guess most of the time about > who wrote what. I am shocked, shocked! The Webby uses Google Groups? Get a *real* ISP, one with an honest-to-goodness news server. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer of them left; Worldnet being one of the few. Vaughn I had my hard drive erased and new OS put on. Haven't got all my backup stuff from my external drive yet -- my news reader stuff is in there. My ISP has service (*of course*) but I don't have my newsreader up and running!!! I know ... it is absolutely **shocking** to think the The Webby would ***use*** .~~~~Google Groups~~~~~~ Yikes ... is the sky falling yet???? ;-) Never fear ... The Webby will get things fixed up this weekend, I hope! (Vaughn, just when you thought you'd heard it all ... you find out that The Webby has ... well... don't worry ... TW ;-) Okie dokie. Let's see if this works. Google Groups has to go ... but, I didn't want to bring back NewsWatcher unless I couldn't find a preferred alternative. I'm going to give this program, MaxNews, a little spin since it was designed for Mac OS X (take note Mac people). Let's see if I can let GG go as of this moment. I must give thanks to Vaughn for making me accountable to uphold my "image" ... Google Groups???? Nahhhhh, at least not for long! It was a "usenet emergency use only"!!! Upon trying to post, I was warned that I might want to re-edit to make my lines no more than 80 characters long. I've seen StovePipe posting about that to "Penny" and didn't know what he was referring to. I still don't really... so I'm allowed to send it out as is anyway. If anyone doesn't like the way it appears, let me know. But in that case, maybe we should start a thread for the purpose of how our posts to smd appear. Otherwise, it will be lost inside this thread... no real connection to the subject line. The Webby > I had my hard drive erased and new OS put on. Haven't got all my backup > stuff from my external drive yet -- my news reader stuff is in there. My > ISP has service (*of course*) but I don't have my newsreader up and > running!!! I know ... it is absolutely **shocking** to think the The > Webby would ***use*** .~~~~Google Groups~~~~~~ Yikes ... is the sky > falling yet???? ;-) > Never fear ... The Webby will get things fixed up this weekend, I hope! > (Vaughn, just when you thought you'd heard it all ... you find out that > The Webby has ... well... don't worry ... > TW ;-) > Upon trying to post, I was warned that I might want to re-edit to make my lines no more than 80 characters long. I've seen StovePipe posting about that to "Penny" and didn't know what he was referring to. I still don't really... That's because your reader automatically truncates and formats the lines for you. I sent Penny a snapshot of what it looks like: the whole screen long, no spaces, no line breaks, no structure. >so I'm allowed to send it out as is anyway. If anyone doesn't like the way it appears, let me know. Your news reader should _not_ let you post text that is more than 80 chr$ long, and without automatic line break chr$ inserted. That was/is the UseNet convention. <the Pipe checks his UseNet convention notes.....> ......... I _could_ have you killed ..... You can save yourself by fishing in your Preferences (or whatever it is called in OS X) and set the line length to 80 chr$. >But in that case, maybe we should start a thread for the purpose of how our posts to smd appear. Otherwise, it will be lost inside this thread... no real connection to the subject line. > The Webby The lines are about 120 chr$ long... Hard to read. Set your NewsWatcher to limit lines to 80 chr$ and it'll go better. I'm using MacSOUP, and IMO it is the BEST reader for text-based ng's. There is an OS X version. If you're downloading pictures of naked boys and girls or downloading other illicit and contraband stuff, you may want Thoth. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply [cut] > I'm using MacSOUP, and IMO it is the BEST reader for text-based ng's. > There is an OS X version. > SP I think it's all worked out; back to NewsWatcher. Easier to go with the known product sometimes even with the known deficiencies. Webby > [cut] > > I'm using MacSOUP, and IMO it is the BEST reader for text-based ng's. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Webby Well, what _are_ those deficiencies? Maybe there's a way 'round them. Also: Just because _I_ complain that the lines are too long doesn't make the other reader no good; it just needs adjusting. It seems that I'm the only one experiencing that problem with you and Penny. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply [cut] > Just because _I_ complain that the lines are too long doesn't make the > other reader no good; it just needs adjusting. It seems that I'm the > only one experiencing that problem with you and Penny. > > SP Hopefully you don't have that problem now. NewsWatcher allows me to set the line length; default is 73, I think. Anyway, the other one was worth a try because it was designed for OS X but it lacked features I take for granted. It looked okay on Vaughn's screen ... Webby > [cut] > > Just because _I_ complain that the lines are too long doesn't make the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hopefully you don't have that problem now. No, this is perfect. >NewsWatcher allows me to set > the line length; default is 73, I think. Anyway, the other one was > worth a try because it was designed for OS X but it lacked features I > take for granted. It looked okay on Vaughn's screen ... yeah, but Vaughn lives in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... everything is weird ovah theah.... > Webby SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > yeah, but Vaughn lives in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... Damn! You smoked me out. Congratulations Inspector Clouseau. Vaughn > > yeah, but Vaughn lives in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... > > Damn! You smoked me out. Congratulations Inspector Clouseau. > > Vaughn But! ... there are a lot of tunnels in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... duck Vaughn ... they'll have a hard time catching up with you before you get back *home* (I'll never tell where). TW > > yeah, but Vaughn lives in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... > > Damn! You smoked me out. Congratulations Inspector Clouseau. > > Vaughn .... There is a time for laughing, and a time _not_ for laughing; and _this_ is not one of them.... Until we meet again, and the case is solv-ed.... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > > [cut] > > > Just because _I_ complain that the lines are too long doesn't make the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > No, this is perfect. Ah.... I should have read *all* the newest posts before commenting!! This is good news(watcher)! > >NewsWatcher allows me to set > > the line length; default is 73, I think. Anyway, the other one was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > yeah, but Vaughn lives in Whiporwhill, West Texas.... everything is > weird ovah theah.... Well ... Vaughn lives under the sky and above ground unless he's in the sky and underground. I am still not sure what honeybells are though. ... Back to my reading before posting more ... Webby > Well ... Vaughn lives under the sky and above ground unless he's in the > sky and underground. Vaughn is sometimes found up in the sky. > I am still not sure what honeybells are though. A very sweet, juicy, and fairly expensive, citrus fruit. They make great juice, and can usually be easily pealed and sectioned like a tangerine. We had a wonderful, productive little tree. When I saw it after the latest 'cane, I honestly shed a tear. It may live, but it will never be the same. Vaughn > ... Back to my reading before posting more ... > > Webby > > Well ... Vaughn lives under the sky and above ground unless he's in the > > sky and underground. > > Vaughn is sometimes found up in the sky. Underground, metaphorically speaking. If I look up in the sky, I'd have just as much trouble spotting you as I would if you were in a tunnel!! > > I am still not sure what honeybells are though. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a wonderful, productive little tree. When I saw it after the latest 'cane, I > honestly shed a tear. It may live, but it will never be the same. I don't know if we can't get them here or if they're known by another name. *But*! I am sure going to look for some in a few years. If your tree is not going to be productive, the whole industry might be shattered for some time to come. I'm sorry about your little tree, Vaughn. :-( Webby Looks OK. I had to download a newsreader last time that I changed computers. I went with newsville.com and it seems to be working pretty well. I need to install it on the home computer too, but I haven't. They have a web version of access that isn't any better than Google, but they also offer the real newsreader too. Webby, you're sneaky! <VBG> Dartos >>I'm using MacSOUP, and IMO it is the BEST reader for text-based ng's. >>There is an OS X version. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Webby > Looks OK. I had to download a newsreader last time that I changed > computers. I went with newsville.com and it seems to be working > pretty well. I need to install it on the home computer too, but > I haven't. They have a web version of access that isn't any better > than Google, but they also offer the real newsreader too. It's not that easy to find good news reader programs. It's such a *pain* to get computers all set up again. Ugh... I don't enjoy the process one little bit! Think I'll stick with this program for now for the sake of sanity. > Webby, you're sneaky! I know ... but you deserved some accolades. :-) > <VBG> > Dartos Webby > >>I'm using MacSOUP, and IMO it is the BEST reader for text-based ng's. > >>There is an OS X version. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > Webby > > Looks OK. I had to download a newsreader last time that I changed > > computers. I went with newsville.com and it seems to be working [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It's not that easy to find good news reader programs. Sure it is: MacSOUP >It's such a > *pain* to get computers all set up again. Ugh... I don't enjoy the > process one little bit! Think I'll stick with this program for now for > the sake of sanity. > > > > Webby -- Take out the TRAASH to reply > > > Looks OK. I had to download a newsreader last time that I changed > > > computers. I went with newsville.com and it seems to be working [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Sure it is: MacSOUP But I had already found NewsWatcher! Is there something about the appearance of my posts that you don't like? .. Notice that I didn't ask if you don't like my posts!!! ;-) Webby > >It's such a > > *pain* to get computers all set up again. Ugh... I don't enjoy the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > Take out the TRAASH to reply > > > It's not that easy to find good news reader programs. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > appearance of my posts that you don't like? .. Notice that I didn't ask > if you don't like my posts!!! ;-) Again, this is perfect. It is just that I thought that NW was also doing things you didn't like, and so you wanted to try othere things. I think NewsWatcher is the oldest reader for the Mac. I like MacSOUP because it handles text in a very efficient manner on this old iBook. If you want some expert advice, try asking at comp.sys.mac.apps. Alot of the Mac BigWigs hang out there. Cheers :-/ SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > > > > It's not that easy to find good news reader programs. > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Cheers :-/ > SP You're correct. I would like a "lock" feature to save articles. Does MacSoup offer this? Thanks for the reminder about the mac group. They're way too smart for me to hang out with though. ;-) Webby > > If you want some expert advice, try asking at comp.sys.mac.apps. Alot of > > the Mac BigWigs hang out there. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You're correct. I would like a "lock" feature to save articles. Does > MacSoup offer this? Yes, you can lock, mark as unread, order Pizza and Beer, catapult yourself into an Alternate Universe, etc., but you're better off saving and appending to different topics, IMO. > Thanks for the reminder about the mac group. They're way too smart for > me to hang out with though. ;-) Yes... well, I shall have to give them a good dressing down then, shant I? There are things one simply doesn't do: You don't tread on SuperMan's cape. You don't spit into the wind. You don't pull the mask of the ol' Lone Ranger, and You don't be condescending to SabraTW. --after Jim Croce SP > Webby SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > > > If you want some expert advice, try asking at comp.sys.mac.apps. Alot of > > > the Mac BigWigs hang out there. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > yourself into an Alternate Universe, etc., but you're better off saving > and appending to different topics, IMO. Can you explain "appending to different topics" as it relates to the choice of locking articles for saving? I'm not sure what you're telling me. > > Thanks for the reminder about the mac group. They're way too smart for > > me to hang out with though. ;-) > > Yes... well, I shall have to give them a good dressing down then, shant > I? No ... I have only lurked and never been "mistreated" in any way at all. > There are things one simply doesn't do: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > SP My own personal serenading-cyber-body-guard!! Wow! Am I lucky or what??? SabraTW > > Yes, you can lock, mark as unread, order Pizza and Beer, catapult > > yourself into an Alternate Universe, etc., but you're better off saving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > choice of locking articles for saving? I'm not sure what you're telling > me. > SabraTW Has a nice ring to it, IMO: *SabraTW*; like you're IMPORTANT, or somthin'. .... 'K. Now, I'm writing this s..l..o..w..l..y, 'cuz I know you don't read very fast. ;-) I mean: when you open the app, it goes online and and gets new articles, you read them and then they are marked read. They are taken out and stored in another file (but not thrown away 'till you actually physically do so; a bit like OutHouse Express does). You have a few choices: Mark the current article as Unread (so it stays around as if you haven't read it yet); mark the current article/thread as Read (it gets shuffled to the 'read' window); Save it to disk. If it is a thread, you save the first article you want to hold on to and then, if there are others in that thread (or related threads) you want to keep in the same place, you Append them to the one you originally saved. This saves them in the order you append them, one after the other, and so reads a bit like the original thread. It's like adding a new page to the end of book you're writing each time you sit down to work. The articles are saved in SimpleText format (don't know if you have SimpleText in OS X, but you will have _some_ form of simple text reader). You can open them in Word or whatever. For instance, all the current articles concerning the MonoDont that I have posted to will be saved and appended to the first one, even if the clowns decide to change the title of thread. (This is the only way to handle the clowns; as you know, a thread will typically have %?& serious posts and then it will evolve into kibbutzing. This is normal and a cherished characteristic of the SMD, but one must be able to manage the info that one wants to save). Another choice you have is to Lock the article. Then it never moves, and even if you read it a thousand times, it will not get moved to the 'read' file. One nice feature about MacSoup is that it downloads all the articles to your disk and then, if you're on dial-up, it hangs up. You read, answer, etc., in an offline mode. When you're ready, you ask it to Connect to Server again and it uploads all your responses and downloads the new ones, and breaks the connection again. As with most newsreaders, it marks the threads that you have participated in, so you know if someone has answered you. I feel that for 25$ or so, I have gotten more use out of this reader than any other app that I've paid for on this little iBook. I have an external disk that is half full of nothing but archived SMD posts. One day I'm gonna have to annotate it.... :-/ I hope that clears things up a bit... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > W_Bwrote On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:40:24 -0600 daleypenny@yahoo-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Penny) wrote > Treatment can not be agreed to by one party only in a joint lega > custody arrangemen > Again, where is the legal permission to make such decisions by an > health care provider without the parents in agreement Go talk to an attorney already Sheesh, no wonder you are divorced - W_ Thanks for your advise. I have spoken w/ attorney. I am divorced because I was in a relationship with a husband who financially was controlling ( probably made more $ than you I' thinking) and had a history of domestic violence. Wasn't heaven by all means Penn Take out the G'RBAG wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com[/quote:2ac378900d > I am divorced because I was in a relationship with a husband >whomfinancially was controlling ( probably made more $ than you >I'mthinking) and had a history of domestic violence. Wasn't >heaven by >all means. Looks like you were lucky to get out in one piece. I've personally seen how difficult it can be for the poorer spouse to get * justice* in the face of the legal machine that the other can generate. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply \> Thanks for your advise. I have spoken w/ attorney. > I am divorced because I was in a relationship with a husband whom > financially was controlling ( probably made more $ than you I'm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com[/quote:2ac378900d] Somebody who would make the comment " probably made more $ than you I'm thinking" when having a discussion with a bunch of strangers seems like someone who is quite preoccupied with what people "have". Offers an interesting insight into what went on in your life. T > Stovepipewrote Vaughn <vaughnsimonHATESSPAM@att.fake.net> wrote > "Stovepipe" <stove99TRA@ASHyahoo.ca> wrote in messag > news:1h6zw4n.1vghtxf13hevbqN%stove99TRA@ASHyahoo.ca.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vaugh .... There is a time for laughing, and a time _not_ for laughing an _this_ is not one of them... Until we meet again, and the case is solv-ed... S Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don' verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides I haven't seen anything except acting in good faith on the ortho part. -- Take out the TRAASH to reply[/quote:3be8456856 >>Stovepipewrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I haven't seen anything except acting in good faith on the orthos > part. What would you recommend? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 [cut] Not sure who wrote this: > > Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > > verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. > > I haven't seen anything except acting in good faith on the orthos > > part. And Steve asked this: > What would you recommend? > > Steve It seems to me that with HIPAA in place, something about this entire thread doesn't add up. Webby > > Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > > verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Steve I asked this same question several times. One response was about checking ID, but there was no further reply after I pointed out that there are many situations where a legal guardian and child will not have same name. T > > > Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > > > verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > T And there are also many reasons for instances when a parent is not the "personal representative" of a minor child. The issue of "personal representative" is not far off what might be at least part of the problem here. Webby >>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't >>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > T Does this mean you don't routinely ask for a tissue sample? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > >>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > >>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Steve When a new patient is seen in a medical or dental office, isn't a new patient-record/chart generated that would contain the standard complement of forms? How do you identify your patients? Somewhere on the child's patient record there must be information about mother, father, address, emergency contact information, responsible party for payment ... and the HIPAA As I think I've already written, something just doesn't add up with this thread. A mother is not automatically the "personal representative" for her child just because she has joint custody with the child's father subsequent to a divorce. Webby >>>>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't >>>>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Webby Of course we have to collect all this information. I cannot conceive that any medical practitioner would ever be required to get full documentation of a custody agreement before treatment, so long as a reasonable representation is made that there is consent of A parent or guardian. The rest is legal stuff. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > >>>>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > >>>>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Steve Yes, it's all legal stuff. It's enough to drive everyone crazy too. I think medical care, and probably dental care too, only requires the permission of one parent, guardian or "personal representative". But ... I might be wrong too! Back a few years, the California DMV required that if a minor had two living parents, both had to sign the application for a driver's license ... or maybe the learner's permit and the license applications ... anyway, it seemed very unfair to kids living with one parent and without access to the other for any number of reasons. Some kids have no idea where an absent parent is. I looked, out of interest because of this thread, to the CA DMV website today and it seems that parent signatures are required for financial responsibility. It almost reads as though insurance isn't required if the *parents* agree to be responsible for the minimum financial obligations. I was stunned!!! This is off topic to the dental matter, but maybe not completely. Anyway, I can't believe I interpreted that information correctly in thinking that the signatures could serve to replace insurance, which is required by law of all drivers, I thought ...... Sorry for wandering out of topic for a moment. W. > >>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't > >>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Steve I actually am thinking of only treating people who have used this... http://www.yellodyno.com/html/dnahome.html T >>>>>Solve it then. Give me a logical reason why ortho/dentists don't >>>>>verify identity before procedures are done. I understand both sides. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > T The kit's cheap enough. Wonder what they charge for the analysis? Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> I actually am thinking of only treating people who have used this... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Steve Well, consider the first four letters of the analysis 8^0 -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > > I asked this same question several times. One response was about checking > > ID, but there was no further reply after I pointed out that there are many [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve I'll put on my loopes and compare DNA strands in cell # 400,000K in the index finger of parent and child. That should do it... and maybe a lie detector at the same time.... I could have a Mannix or a Colombo the fat guy with the moustach follow 'em for a while as well... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply >>>I asked this same question several times. One response was about checking >>>ID, but there was no further reply after I pointed out that there are many [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > guy with the moustach follow 'em for a while as well... > SP Maybe the bald guy from "Murder One". Steve |
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