Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2005
Composite restoration without isolation.
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S.cepti.C - 23 Nov 2005 14:16 GMT Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore her left central incisor and it was a Class III & Class V (palatal) cavity. The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The margin was subgingival and I knew I was going to have a hard time isolating the tooth so I asked my superiors and they agreed that isolation was not needed. I was getting seriously worried because I was going to restore the tooth with composite. So I'm just wondering, since I already know the chances of the restoration is going to fail is there, so is there any chance it won't? There wasn't even any enamel on the floor. *baw* She hasn't complained of anything yet, but I'm still worried.
In a different event, in a Class III cavity of a lateral incisor, I was removing an old composite restoration as it was stained and unaesthetic, and the previous dentist did not place any lining (e.g calcium hydroxide) on the restoration so I figured I shouldn't have to..(stupidly without prior checking the periapical radiograph - it was really close to the pulp but I found no shadows of the pulp whilst preparing the cavity; but most probably about 1mm or less of dentine - or probably more - GOD!) So I went to etch the cavity, applied the dentine bonding agent, placed the composite incrementally happily... And felt REALLY guilty afterwards... The patient did not complain of any post-op H/S or any follow-up symptoms up until now... I did this about 4-5 months ago... But it would be affected in the long-term aspect, wouldn't it?
Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D
Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 14:43 GMT > In a different event, in a Class III cavity of a lateral incisor, I was > removing an old composite restoration as it was stained and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > about 4-5 months ago... But it would be affected in the long-term > aspect, wouldn't it? I only use CaOH in the very young patient for indirect pulp capping. It is then removed entirely 6-12 months later. I NEVER use it under a final restoration. Regardless of how close to the pulp the restoration is. Studies do NOT support its use as a liner to prevent pulpal necrosis. It is a good microbial inhibitant. I like to use it as a temporary cover on deep parts of a prep while waiting for the indirect restoration to be milled. I flick off the CaOH prior to bonding.
If your school requires you to use CaOh, then comply with their rules for now. Keep the amount of it minimal. Cover as little of the dentin as possible and keep it very thin. Studies show that it does disappear under restorations in time. You will be creating a void by using it. Plus, you cannot bond to it.
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> Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few > questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 14:49 GMT >The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all > of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the floor. *baw* She hasn't complained of anything yet, but I'm still > worried. Welcome to the real world of dentistry. If the tissues did not weep any moisture onto the dentin, the restoration should last for many years. I have seen such restorations last 15 years, in the absence of parafunctional activity. Learn how to pack cord quickly, learn how to rub an astringent over the tissues, learn how to cauterize with electrosurgery or laser, learn how to trough with electrosurgery or laser. In real world, you will use a rubber dam, but not for every restoration. Personally, I seldom use it for restorative work. Other dentists use it almost every time. You will find what works for you. I never bond if the dentin will not stay dry for 2-3 minutes. It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do so.
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> Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few > questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D W_B - 23 Nov 2005 15:57 GMT Agree with AC fully on both responses.
Especially the one about the 'real world'. Thousands of composites are placed daily w/o rubber dam.
>>The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all >> of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >minutes. It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do >so. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 23 Nov 2005 16:47 GMT > Agree with AC fully on both responses. > > Especially the one about the 'real world'. > Thousands of composites are placed daily w/o rubber dam. Yup. Not that I feel too confident about an incisor with everything rotted away but the labial shell of enamel, which is practically what this thing sounds like.
Steve
>>>The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all >>>of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
 Signature Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001
Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 16:58 GMT > Not that I feel too confident about an incisor with everything rotted away > but the labial shell of enamel, which is practically what this thing > sounds like. Agreed
Flexibility of the remaining tooth structure becomes an issue. If there is enough remaining proximal tooth structure (or preferably, most of the cingulum), then the tooth will flex less and the restoration will last better.
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> >> Agree with AC fully on both responses. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> Take out the G'RBAGE >> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B - 23 Nov 2005 17:52 GMT > I never bond if the dentin will not stay dry for 2-3 >minutes. It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do >so. How about if we let the tooth 'bench dry' ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 23 Nov 2005 19:34 GMT Dycal is not very useful. I only use CaOH paste in endo cases where I don't fill in one appt.
Good bonding should protect the pulp even on deep restorations.
AC gave good advice on the isolation question. The only thing that I might add is that some bonding resins stimulate bleeding (Bond 1, e.g.) and some have very little effect (Clearfil SE, e.g.). On most restorations this isn't much of a problem, but on subgingival III's or V's it can be huge.
And like AC also stated, don't try to educate your educators on filling techniques. Many would not handle it very well.
:-) Dartos
S.cepti.C - 25 Nov 2005 11:43 GMT Thanks so much for all of the replies! :D
My school is kind of big on the calcium hydroxide usage... Only for direct/indirect pulp caps though, but sometimes whenever the decay has all been removed on the pulpal floor and very little dentine is left, we're required to line the cavity with Dycal, usually...
The cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about, she was bleeding quite a bit and I stopped the bleeding... but I can't quite shake off the feeling that moisture must've had seeped in somehow... Hence, no proper sealing of the cavity...
Stovepipe - 25 Nov 2005 13:24 GMT > cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left > and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about, > she was bleeding quite a bit and I stopped the bleeding... My hemostatic of choice is Visco-Stat, which comes in a 1cc syringe, and I start by putting some on right after I put on the topical anesthetic. I repeat all thru the prep, putting it on and RUBBING it into the gum with a micro-brush. You have to SCRAPE it against the open wounds, which means you should anesthetize before hand. If you do this at the start, your highspeed running (in most cases) with water on high, the excess stuff will be washed out by the time you get to filling. I make a final test with a generous air/water wash and wait a few seconds. If it's gonna gush again, NOW is the time to curse and pray, and re-apply the blessed stuff. If after one minute or so it is STILL oozing, break out a quarter cc of Xylo with 1:50 000 epi. Put that right next to the worst bleeding (on the intact gum tissue a couple of mm away) and etch, bond, etc. You'll have about two minutes before the second (beta receptor) vasodilation sets in, so plug that area first and then do the rest.
The best chord packer I know of is the Hu-Freidy CVIPC interproximal carver, while you're holding the chord in place with a perio probe. Start by snuggling it in to the deepest place using it like dental floss, hold it with the perio probe and use your chord plugger. The ones you have in your kit have teeth on 'em.... I prefer the CVIPC, 'cauze it DON'T have teeth, but use what you have.
Re dentinal sensitivity and being close to the nerve and all that bullshit: my own standard technique is to go around the enamel using my etch in a 1cc syringe, waiting about @#$$ seconds, and then plastering the dentine with the stuff. NOW is the time to start the clock: FIFTEEN seconds (15...... not 50). If there is sclerotic dentin around (as under an old Am), I squirt that area at the same time as the enamel. If you're still using paint brushes to put the etch on, skip this last.
In a case like this, I wash wash wash without air, and blot dry with cotton pellets (or even the end of a cotton roll, with a sink-like lesion like this one). Put on your primer/bonding waiting FIFTEEN seconds each for the stuff to SEEP IN to the dentin. Do this and you get a good thick hybridized zone, and so sensitivity goes down. This cannot be over emphasized. There was a story Jeff Brucia told us whereby there is one of the Japanese companies who put chloro-quinone into their PRIMER, and they recommend you cure that primer. The reason? To force the dentist to SLOW DOWN and allow the blessed stuff to seep in before he freezez it in with the bonding.
So, you see, you have at least 15 seconds etch, 15 seconds primer, 15 seconds bonding, and then you have to run to get the white stuff in if you've had to use the Xylo for vasoconstriction. That is why I start with the Viscostat even BEFORE I hit the tooth with the rotary instruments.
One word of caution: any ferrous oxide (or is it sulphate?) product will stain permanently. Protect yourself and your patient by carrying it to the zone on a 2X2, and if it is in a syringe, pull back on the plunger so it doesn't ooze out onto (hopefully) the patient's bib.
In the back (say, a buccal Cl V that is partly subgingival) I do roughly the same thing (bonding-hybridized layer, I mean), but often I fill 'em with (gasp!) Ammmmmmmmmalgam....
Hope this helps.
SP
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Amatus Cremona - 25 Nov 2005 21:51 GMT All good advice from buy good friend King -Pipe.
I like Hemodent, I rub it against the tissue with a cotton pellet. I don't get it out until the prep is done. With high magnification, you don't scrape the gingiva with your bur much. I etch everything for 10-15 seconds period. Place a layer of Hemoseal to re-hydrate and eliminate sensitivity. You can use Gluma as well. Just the way I do it.
Amatus
>> cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left >> and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about, [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >SP ..
Amatus
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S.cepti.C - 29 Nov 2005 11:58 GMT Thank you for the advices! I don't think in the clinics here, materials like Visco-stat, Hemodent, Hemoseal etc. will be available for student's usage, we've never been introduced to them just yet, and you can really imagine the limitations in the dental schools... But thank you so much! I'll try to keep a whole lot of these of tips and tricks in mind! :D
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 12:55 GMT Pardon me, where are you located again ?
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> Thank you for the advices! I don't think in the clinics here, materials > like Visco-stat, Hemodent, Hemoseal etc. will be available for > student's usage, we've never been introduced to them just yet, and you > can really imagine the limitations in the dental schools... But thank > you so much! I'll try to keep a whole lot of these of tips and tricks > in mind! :D Dartos - 29 Nov 2005 13:46 GMT > Pardon me, where are you located again ? I think he's in Australia. He doesn't move around as much as you do. How's the weather in Omaha?
;-) Dartos
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 14:31 GMT > I think he's in Australia. He doesn't move around as much as > you do. How's the weather in Omaha? Warm today. Cold predicted for tomorrow.
I was wondering about the location of the student since he was describing a situation which might be taken as being less than optimal.
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> >> Pardon me, where are you located again ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ;-) > Dartos W_B - 29 Nov 2005 18:29 GMT >> Pardon me, where are you located again ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >;-) >Dartos Certainly better than in Denver right now. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT > >> Pardon me, where are you located again ? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Certainly better than in Denver right now. > -- I GOT IT!!!!! AC is _not_ practicing from a LearJet like I thought: he's on a barge/Winebego/Herculese Transport travelling up and down the mighty Mississippi/Desert/Rockey Mountain Pass.
This will keep up until he:
Gets kinda tired of packin' and unpackin'.... Town to Town... Up and down the dial...
Until..... ...... finally.... ................... he's.....
CAUGHT WITH HIS HANDS INSIDE THE MONEY TILLER....
And..... ...... so now.... ................... he's.....
LIVING IN A VAN DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER....
..... YO, Penny: 'that emotional enuf for ya???????
Cheers SP
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Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 12:18 GMT > LIVING IN A VAN > DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER.... I am so depressed !
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> >> >> Pardon me, where are you located again ? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Cheers > SP Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 13:32 GMT > > LIVING IN A VAN > > DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER.... > > I am so depressed ! .... Um, you DO realize, of course, that it comes from SNL?
(Mike?) Farley...
Cheer up.... it is not the worst... you could be down by a _Kanadian_ river.....
SP
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Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 13:50 GMT > (Mike?) Farley... I did not know.
I never could quite stomach his brand of humor.
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> >> > LIVING IN A VAN [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > SP Dartos - 30 Nov 2005 14:03 GMT IIRC, it was Chris Farley
D
>>(Mike?) Farley... > > I did not know. > > I never could quite stomach his brand of humor. Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 14:02 GMT After, Belucci, Murphy, Akroyd, Piscipo, Radner, etc. left I never got back into SNL. It seemed they wanted to shock the viewer rather than entertain them.
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> > IIRC, it was Chris Farley [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> I never could quite stomach his brand of humor. Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 14:10 GMT > After, Belucci, Murphy, Akroyd, Piscipo, Radner, etc. left I never got back > into SNL. It seemed they wanted to shock the viewer rather than entertain > them. I think 80 pc of us feel the same way. I left after the second or third season. SP
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Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 14:10 GMT > IIRC, it was Chris Farley > > D You're right. SP
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Dartos - 30 Nov 2005 13:57 GMT That really gives me chills (literally!)
Dartos
> Cheer up.... it is not the worst... you could be down by a _Kanadian_ > river..... > > SP Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 13:59 GMT > That really gives me chills (literally!) Freezing rain here in Georgia this morning. Lets see if the next patient can make it in.
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> > That really gives me chills (literally!) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> SP S.cepti.C - 29 Nov 2005 13:52 GMT In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is accessible. I'm a female, by the way... :D
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 14:33 GMT > In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Is there difficulty obtaining materials there ? If your clinical instructors are not giving you the attention you need, we may be able to make suggestions for you. Feel free to ask questions. Just make sure we know what conditions you have to perform under, so that we offer appropriate advice.
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> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is > accessible. I'm a female, by the way... :D Dartos - 29 Nov 2005 16:06 GMT Well, I had the right side of the world....
Ledermix is popular in Australia, so I took a stab.
D
> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is > accessible. I'm a female, by the way... :D Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT > In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. There is at least one bright side: You will learn techniques that we don't know of here in North America.
>Believe you me, not everything is > accessible. Do you have silver nitrate? You should be able to get *wooden matches* with that on the end. If you scrape a bit of and use that on a moist cotton swab applied with some pressure, you will get _some_ hemostatic effect. Ask the Mad Dogs (Medical Doctors). Take care not to stain the gum tissue too much, and keep in mind that it will burn the tissue, hence the advisory to use a small amount with moist backing.
If you can get some Visine eye drops, that works as a vasoconstrictor too, but it is weak and short-acting.
Also try etching the gum tissue for a minute or so, then etching the tooth.
Anesthesia such as Xylocaine with 1:50 000 adrenalin or levonordefrin will also work, but usually only for 2 minutes.
Electrocautry: If you can get a bipolar unit, you don't need a ground plate (and you can use a bipolar unit on cardiac patients with safety).
How about Googling Hemodent or UltraDent (ViscoStat) and emailing the companies to send your school some free kits? I don't see why they wouldn't.
>I'm a female, by the way... :D Oh.... _That_ explains it.... ;-)
That was a JOKE, S.
hope this helps a bit SP
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Amatus Cremona - 25 Nov 2005 21:42 GMT You will see lots more like this before retirement. Just make sure the patient knows this treatment is short-term, and that the tooth will be lost, eventually.
Amatus
>Thanks so much for all of the replies! :D > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >quite shake off the feeling that moisture must've had seeped in >somehow... Hence, no proper sealing of the cavity... ..
Amatus
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