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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2005

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Composite restoration without isolation.

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S.cepti.C - 23 Nov 2005 14:16 GMT
Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few
questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore
her left central incisor and it was a Class III & Class V (palatal)
cavity. The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all
of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The
margin was subgingival and I knew I was going to have a hard time
isolating the tooth so I asked my superiors and they agreed that
isolation was not needed. I was getting seriously worried because I was
going to restore the tooth with composite. So I'm just wondering, since
I already know the chances of the restoration is going to fail is
there, so is there any chance it won't? There wasn't even any enamel on
the floor. *baw* She hasn't complained of anything yet, but I'm still
worried.

In a different event, in a Class III cavity of a lateral incisor, I was
removing an old composite restoration as it was stained and
unaesthetic, and the previous dentist did not place any lining (e.g
calcium hydroxide) on the restoration so I figured I shouldn't have
to..(stupidly without prior checking the periapical radiograph - it was
really close to the pulp but I found no shadows of the pulp whilst
preparing the cavity; but most probably about 1mm or less of dentine -
or probably more - GOD!) So I went to etch the cavity, applied the
dentine bonding agent, placed the composite incrementally happily...
And felt REALLY guilty afterwards... The patient did not complain of
any post-op H/S or any follow-up symptoms up until now... I did this
about 4-5 months ago... But it would be affected in the long-term
aspect, wouldn't it?

Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D
Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 14:43 GMT
> In a different event, in a Class III cavity of a lateral incisor, I was
> removing an old composite restoration as it was stained and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> about 4-5 months ago... But it would be affected in the long-term
> aspect, wouldn't it?

I only use CaOH in the very young patient for indirect pulp capping.  It is
then removed entirely 6-12 months later.  I NEVER use it under a final
restoration.  Regardless of how close to the pulp the restoration is.
Studies do NOT support its use as a liner to prevent pulpal necrosis.  It is
a good microbial inhibitant.  I like to use it as a temporary cover on deep
parts of a prep while waiting for the indirect restoration to be milled.  I
flick off the CaOH prior to bonding.

If your school requires you to use CaOh, then comply with their rules for
now.  Keep the amount of it minimal.  Cover as little of the dentin as
possible and keep it very thin.  Studies show that it does disappear under
restorations in time.  You will be creating a void by using it.  Plus, you
cannot bond to it.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few
> questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D
Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 14:49 GMT
>The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all
> of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the floor. *baw* She hasn't complained of anything yet, but I'm still
> worried.

Welcome to the real world of dentistry.  If the tissues did not weep any
moisture onto the dentin, the restoration should last for many years.  I
have seen such restorations last 15 years, in the absence of parafunctional
activity.  Learn how to pack cord quickly, learn how to rub an astringent
over the tissues, learn how to cauterize with electrosurgery or laser, learn
how to trough with electrosurgery or laser.  In real world, you will use a
rubber dam, but not for every restoration.  Personally, I seldom use it for
restorative work.  Other dentists use it almost every time.  You will find
what works for you.  I never bond if the dentin will not stay dry for 2-3
minutes.  It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do
so.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

> Hi! I'm a third year dental student and I'd like to ask a few
> questions! Just the other day, one of my patients wanted me to restore
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Thank you soo much for your response in advance! :D
W_B - 23 Nov 2005 15:57 GMT
Agree with AC fully on both responses.

Especially the one about the 'real world'.
Thousands of composites are placed daily w/o rubber dam.

>>The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all
>> of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>minutes.  It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do
>so.

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Mark & Steven Bornfeld - 23 Nov 2005 16:47 GMT
> Agree with AC fully on both responses.
>
> Especially the one about the 'real world'.
> Thousands of composites are placed daily w/o rubber dam.

    Yup.
    Not that I feel too confident about an incisor with everything rotted
away but the labial shell of enamel, which is practically what this
thing sounds like.

Steve

>>>The only sound structure remaining were the incisal tip and all
>>>of the buccal enamel after all the carious parts were removed.The
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Signature

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Amatus Cremona - 23 Nov 2005 16:58 GMT
> Not that I feel too confident about an incisor with everything rotted away
> but the labial shell of enamel, which is practically what this thing
> sounds like.

Agreed

Flexibility of the remaining tooth structure becomes an issue.  If there is
enough remaining proximal tooth structure (or preferably, most of the
cingulum), then the tooth will flex less and the restoration will last
better.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> Agree with AC fully on both responses.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>> Take out the G'RBAGE
>> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B - 23 Nov 2005 17:52 GMT
>  I never bond if the dentin will not stay dry for 2-3
>minutes.  It does not matter how you keep the tooth dry, simply that you do
>so.

How about if we let the tooth 'bench dry' ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Dartos - 23 Nov 2005 19:34 GMT
Dycal is not very useful.  I only use CaOH paste in endo cases
where I don't fill in one appt.

Good bonding should protect the pulp even on deep restorations.

AC gave good advice on the isolation question.  The only thing
that I might add is that some bonding resins stimulate bleeding
(Bond 1, e.g.) and some have very little effect (Clearfil SE, e.g.).
On most restorations this isn't much of a problem, but on subgingival
III's or V's it can be huge.

And like AC also stated, don't try to educate your educators on
filling techniques.  Many would not handle it very well.

:-)
Dartos
S.cepti.C - 25 Nov 2005 11:43 GMT
Thanks so much for all of the replies! :D

My school is kind of big on the calcium hydroxide usage... Only for
direct/indirect pulp caps though, but sometimes whenever the decay has
all been removed on the pulpal floor and very little dentine is left,
we're required to line the cavity with Dycal, usually...

The cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left
and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about,
she was bleeding quite a bit and I stopped the bleeding... but I can't
quite shake off the feeling that moisture must've had seeped in
somehow... Hence, no proper sealing of the cavity...
Stovepipe - 25 Nov 2005 13:24 GMT
> cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left
> and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about,
> she was bleeding quite a bit and I stopped the bleeding...

My hemostatic of choice is Visco-Stat, which comes in a 1cc syringe, and
I start by putting some on right after I put on the topical anesthetic.
I repeat all thru the prep, putting it on and RUBBING it into the gum
with a micro-brush. You have to SCRAPE it against the open wounds, which
means you should anesthetize before hand. If you do this at the start,
your highspeed running (in most cases) with water on high, the excess
stuff will be washed out by the time you get to filling. I make a final
test with a generous air/water wash and wait a few seconds. If it's
gonna gush again, NOW is the time to curse and pray, and re-apply the
blessed stuff. If after one minute or so it is STILL oozing, break out a
quarter cc of Xylo with 1:50 000 epi. Put that right next to the worst
bleeding (on the intact gum tissue a couple of mm away) and etch, bond,
etc. You'll have about two minutes before the second (beta receptor)
vasodilation sets in, so plug that area first and then do the rest.

The best chord packer I know of is the Hu-Freidy CVIPC interproximal
carver, while you're holding the chord in place with a perio probe.
Start by snuggling it in to the deepest place using it like dental
floss, hold it with the perio probe and use your chord plugger. The ones
you have in your kit have teeth on 'em....  I prefer the CVIPC, 'cauze
it DON'T have teeth, but use what you have.

Re dentinal sensitivity and being close to the nerve and all that
bullshit: my own standard technique is to go around the enamel using my
etch in a 1cc syringe, waiting about @#$$ seconds, and then plastering
the dentine with the stuff. NOW is the time to start the clock: FIFTEEN
seconds (15...... not 50). If there is sclerotic dentin around (as under
an old Am), I squirt that area at the same time as the enamel. If you're
still using paint brushes to put the etch on, skip this last.

In a case like this, I wash wash wash without air, and blot dry with
cotton pellets (or even the end of a cotton roll, with a sink-like
lesion like this one). Put on your primer/bonding waiting FIFTEEN
seconds each for the stuff to SEEP IN to the dentin. Do this and you get
a good thick hybridized zone, and so sensitivity goes down. This cannot
be over emphasized. There was a story Jeff Brucia told us whereby there
is one of the Japanese companies who put chloro-quinone into their
PRIMER, and they recommend you cure that primer. The reason? To force
the dentist to SLOW DOWN and allow the blessed stuff to seep in before
he freezez it in with the bonding.

So, you see, you have at least 15 seconds etch, 15 seconds primer, 15
seconds bonding, and then you have to run to get the white stuff in if
you've had to use the Xylo for vasoconstriction. That is why I start
with the Viscostat even BEFORE I hit the tooth with the rotary
instruments.

One word of caution: any ferrous oxide (or is it sulphate?) product will
stain permanently. Protect yourself and your patient by carrying it to
the zone on a 2X2, and if it is in a syringe, pull back on the plunger
so it doesn't ooze out onto (hopefully) the patient's bib.

In the back (say, a buccal Cl V that is partly subgingival) I do roughly
the same thing (bonding-hybridized layer, I mean), but often I fill 'em
with (gasp!) Ammmmmmmmmalgam....

Hope this helps.

SP
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Amatus Cremona - 25 Nov 2005 21:51 GMT
All good advice from buy good friend King -Pipe.

I like Hemodent, I rub it against the tissue with a cotton pellet. I
don't get it out until the prep is done. With high magnification, you
don't scrape the gingiva with your bur much.  I etch everything for
10-15 seconds period.   Place a layer of Hemoseal  to re-hydrate and
eliminate sensitivity. You can use Gluma as well.  Just the way I do
it.

Amatus

>> cingulum was already gone, only the dentine underneath it was left
>> and it was quite deep subgingivally... That's what I was worried about,
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
>SP

..

Amatus

.
S.cepti.C - 29 Nov 2005 11:58 GMT
Thank you for the advices! I don't think in the clinics here, materials
like Visco-stat, Hemodent, Hemoseal etc. will be available for
student's usage, we've never been introduced to them just yet, and you
can really imagine the limitations in the dental schools... But thank
you so much! I'll try to keep a whole lot of these of tips and tricks
in mind! :D
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 12:55 GMT
Pardon me, where are you located again ?

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Amatus

/

> Thank you for the advices! I don't think in the clinics here, materials
> like Visco-stat, Hemodent, Hemoseal etc. will be available for
> student's usage, we've never been introduced to them just yet, and you
> can really imagine the limitations in the dental schools... But thank
> you so much! I'll try to keep a whole lot of these of tips and tricks
> in mind! :D
Dartos - 29 Nov 2005 13:46 GMT
> Pardon me, where are you located again ?

I think he's in Australia.  He doesn't move around as much as
you do.  How's the weather in Omaha?

;-)
Dartos
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 14:31 GMT
> I think he's in Australia.  He doesn't move around as much as
> you do.  How's the weather in Omaha?

Warm today.  Cold predicted for tomorrow.

I was wondering about the location of the student since he was describing a
situation which might be taken as being less than optimal.

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Amatus

/

>
>> Pardon me, where are you located again ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ;-)
> Dartos
W_B - 29 Nov 2005 18:29 GMT
>> Pardon me, where are you located again ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>;-)
>Dartos

Certainly better than in Denver right now.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT
> >> Pardon me, where are you located again ?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Certainly better than in Denver right now.
> --

I GOT IT!!!!! AC is _not_ practicing from a LearJet like I thought: he's
on a barge/Winebego/Herculese Transport travelling up and down the
mighty Mississippi/Desert/Rockey Mountain Pass.

This will keep up until he:

Gets kinda tired of packin' and unpackin'....
Town to Town...
Up and down the dial...

Until.....
...... finally....
................... he's.....

CAUGHT WITH HIS HANDS
INSIDE THE MONEY TILLER....

And.....
...... so now....
................... he's.....

LIVING IN A VAN
DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER....

..... YO, Penny: 'that emotional enuf for ya???????

Cheers
SP
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Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 12:18 GMT
> LIVING IN A VAN
> DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER....

I am so depressed !

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/

Amatus

/

>
>> >> Pardon me, where are you located again ?
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Cheers
> SP
Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 13:32 GMT
> > LIVING IN A VAN
> > DOWN BY THE OLD RIVER....
>
> I am so depressed !

.... Um, you DO realize, of course, that it comes from SNL?

(Mike?) Farley...

Cheer up.... it is not the worst... you could be down by a _Kanadian_
river.....

SP
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Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 13:50 GMT
> (Mike?) Farley...

I did not know.

I never could quite stomach his brand of humor.

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/

Amatus

/

>
>> > LIVING IN A VAN
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> SP
Dartos - 30 Nov 2005 14:03 GMT
IIRC, it was Chris Farley

D

>>(Mike?) Farley...
>
> I did not know.
>
> I never could quite stomach his brand of humor.
Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 14:02 GMT
After, Belucci, Murphy, Akroyd, Piscipo, Radner, etc. left I never got back
into SNL.  It seemed they wanted to shock the viewer rather than entertain
them.

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/

Amatus

/

>
> IIRC, it was Chris Farley
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
>> I never could quite stomach his brand of humor.
Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 14:10 GMT
> After, Belucci, Murphy, Akroyd, Piscipo, Radner, etc. left I never got back
> into SNL.  It seemed they wanted to shock the viewer rather than entertain
> them.

I think 80 pc of us feel the same way. I left after the second or third
season.
SP
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Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 14:10 GMT
> IIRC, it was Chris Farley
>
> D

You're right.
SP
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Dartos - 30 Nov 2005 13:57 GMT
That really gives me chills (literally!)

Dartos

> Cheer up.... it is not the worst... you could be down by a _Kanadian_
> river.....
>
> SP
Amatus Cremona - 30 Nov 2005 13:59 GMT
> That really gives me chills (literally!)

Freezing rain here in Georgia this morning.  Lets see if the next patient
can make it in.

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Amatus

/

>
> That really gives me chills (literally!)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> SP
S.cepti.C - 29 Nov 2005 13:52 GMT
In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is
accessible. I'm a female, by the way...  :D
Amatus Cremona - 29 Nov 2005 14:33 GMT
> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Is there difficulty obtaining materials there ?   If your clinical
instructors are not giving you the attention you need, we may be able to
make suggestions for you.  Feel free to ask questions.  Just make sure we
know what conditions you have to perform under, so that we offer appropriate
advice.

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Amatus

/

> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is
> accessible. I'm a female, by the way...  :D
Dartos - 29 Nov 2005 16:06 GMT
Well, I had the right side of the world....

Ledermix is popular in Australia, so I took a stab.

D

> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Believe you me, not everything is
> accessible. I'm a female, by the way...  :D
Stovepipe - 30 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT
> In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

There is at least one bright side: You will learn techniques that we
don't know of here in North America.

>Believe you me, not everything is
> accessible.

Do you have silver nitrate? You should be able to get *wooden matches*
with that on the end. If you scrape a bit of and use that on a  moist
cotton swab applied with some pressure, you will get _some_ hemostatic
effect. Ask the Mad Dogs (Medical Doctors). Take care not to stain the
gum tissue too much, and keep in mind that it will burn the tissue,
hence the advisory to use a small amount with moist backing.

If you can get some Visine eye drops, that works as a vasoconstrictor
too, but it is weak and short-acting.

Also try etching the gum tissue for a minute or so, then etching the
tooth.

Anesthesia such as Xylocaine with 1:50 000 adrenalin or levonordefrin
will also work, but usually only for 2 minutes.

Electrocautry: If you can get a bipolar unit, you don't need a ground
plate (and you can use a bipolar unit on cardiac patients with safety).

How about Googling Hemodent or UltraDent (ViscoStat) and emailing the
companies to send your school some free kits? I don't see why they
wouldn't.

>I'm a female, by the way...  :D

Oh.... _That_ explains it....     ;-)

That was a JOKE, S.

hope this helps a bit
SP
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Amatus Cremona - 25 Nov 2005 21:42 GMT
You will see lots more like this before retirement. Just make sure the
patient knows this treatment is short-term, and that the tooth will be
lost, eventually.

Amatus

>Thanks so much for all of the replies! :D
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>quite shake off the feeling that moisture must've had seeped in
>somehow... Hence, no proper sealing of the cavity...

..

Amatus

.

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