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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2005Allbond-2 - the best?
I've been using Bond-One from Pentron for a few years with very little trouble. I have had several porcelain veneers either crack in half (vertically) or just come off. Sometimes the same veneer is debonding multiple times. Needless to say, this is rather frustrating for me and the patient. Of course I have checked and rechecked the occlusion in ip, lateral excursives, and protrusion and everywhere in between. I recently read an article stating that the 5th generation bonding agents are not great for indirect procedures for some reason. The article went on to state and graph that Allbond-2 (4th generation) had the highest bonding strength AND the lowest cost per ml. There wasn't even an ad for Allbond-2 on the next page either. So I started thinking back to when I used to use Allbond-2 and can't think of even one veneer that had bedonded or broken when I used that material. Any thoughts? (I know all about NTI too.....) > I've been using Bond-One from Pentron for a few years with very little > trouble. I have had several porcelain veneers either crack in half [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (I know all about NTI too.....) ____________________________________ The last time I checked with Pentron, they were still selling their 4th-generation bonding material, Bond-It. So if it is just a matter of 4th vs. 5th generation, any 4th-generation ought to work. I used Bond-It for years with no problem until Pentron started making the 5th-generation Bond-1. Allbond-2 ought to be just fine, but I wonder if it can beat the price for Pentron's Bond-It, which had the lowest cost per ml. when I used it. - dentaldoc So are you using Bond-1 with your veneers? This is the main gist of my rant. I feel as though using Bond-1 has allowed the veneers to fail. The 'Get Real!' Paul scribbled: Allbond-2 (4th generation) had the highest bonding strength AND the lowest cost per ml. There wasn't even an ad for Allbond-2 on the next page either. So I started thinking back to when I used to use Allbond-2 and can't think of even one veneer that had bedonded or broken when I used that material. =============== The best bonding lecture I've heard yet was Jeff Brucia's in Montreal at the pre-congress sessions in 2004. These are the sessions you have to lay $$$ down for. His message was essentially: there is NO bonding better than a Fourth Generation bonding, and All-Bond 2 was and (in his 2004 opinion) still is the Gold Standard to which all others are measured by. When you try to combine stuff in one bottle, you get chemical interactions you don't want, and shorter shelf life. He compared these systems to the one-bottle cream rinse/shampoos you get in cheap hotels, vs the higer quality two-bottle set that comes in the higher priced ones. The two bottles just do a better job, period. He went on to say that Pentron should not have 'f---ed' with the original set of All-Bond 2 (they should have resisted the pressure from the market to go to one-bottle systems). I interpret this to mean that he would recommend your going back to All-Bond 2 and spend the extra fifteen or twenty seconds the second step takes. It could also be mentioned that a while back, DrS had a problem with some of his porcelaine onlays popping off too often. It turned out the Silane was bad, and so that is another thing you could check. I'm not sure, but I think Silane doesn't have a long shelf life either. Hope this helps SP > It could also be mentioned that a while back, DrS had a problem with > some of his porcelaine onlays popping off too often. It turned out the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hope this helps > SP _______________________________ That makes me think of Dr. Mark Friedman in the L.A. area (he used to teach at USC and lecture with Isaac Confortes) and what he said about silane over ten years ago. He doesn't use silane for porcelain bonding because of the short shelf life. In his opinion, the silane was just as likely to be a lubricant as an adhesive, depending on its chemical state at the time of use, which the user can't readily measure. Friedman recommended back in the early ninteties that you just skip the silane. Instead, he was careful to micro-etch the interior of any porcelain veneer or restoration, and that provided sufficient retention. His experience was that a CLEAN, micro-etched porcelain surface gave great retention. My two cents' worth, - dentaldoc Bill bellowed: Friedman recommended back in the early ninteties that you just skip the silane. Instead, he was careful to micro-etch the interior of any porcelain veneer or restoration, and that provided sufficient retention. His experience was that a CLEAN, micro-etched porcelain surface gave great retention. My two cents' worth, =================== So: that's just one more reason to invest in the Danville Mark II-A microetcher, fully autoclavable. That is a very useful tool. I do use it for the internal side of in/onlays, and as DrS suggested, I run it around the external side at the edges. Don't leave home without it. Thanks SP >Friedman recommended back in the early ninteties that you just skip the >silane. Instead, he was careful to micro-etch the interior of any >porcelain veneer or restoration, and that provided sufficient >retention. His experience was that a CLEAN, micro-etched porcelain >surface gave great retention. Maybe for full Crowns where you only need lo seal it, not provide retention. Try buying silane in single use ampoules. Amatus >> It could also be mentioned that a while back, DrS had a problem with >> some of his porcelaine onlays popping off too often. It turned out the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >My two cents' worth, >- dentaldoc .. Amatus . Hi What about Simplicity bonding system of As Its looks better like clearfil SE of kuraray ? regards K.P > I've been using Bond-One from Pentron for a few years with very little > trouble. I have had several porcelain veneers either crack in half [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (I know all about NTI too.....) |
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