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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2005Crown or Fill?
I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... I had a small filling in one of my front teeth, which popped out, taking a nice triangular chunk of tooth with it; I put up a lovely out-of-focus picture at: http://cobelle.org/node/1 My dentist has tried to fill it twice, but both times the replacement popped out pretty quickly (one in 24 hours, one in a few weeks, even though I was being careful with it). My question: is it reasonable to expect a filling to hold here? Or should I go with a crown? Thanks! Al > My question: is it reasonable to expect a filling to hold here? Or > should I go with a crown? You should be able to get a filling to stay there very well. You may need to have the way your teeth "bite" adjusted first. You may also need to wear a small appliance at night while you sleep. Your dentist needs to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth.  Signature/ Amatus / > I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Al I agree with AC. I've placed many 'fillings' that are this large with years of success. Beveling the margins and veneering the whole tooth (with composite) adds more retention. Careful bite adjustment and an NTI would sure help. Dartos >>My question: is it reasonable to expect a filling to hold here? Or >>should I go with a crown? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this spot with the > lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. > Careful bite adjustment and an NTI would sure help. I could be all wrong on this case, but being as it fell off so soon, I would be very suspicious of the need for an occlusal adjustment. And, NTI after that. If I looked in the back and saw 2 or more crowns, and some questionable filings, I would be discussing parafunction real quick. Signature/ Amatus / > > I agree with AC. I've placed many 'fillings' that are this [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this >> spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. Now, hold on there, guys: Look closely at that photo: Do youse see any white stuff inside the mouth? _I_ sure don't.... He ain't got no posteriors.... The point is that I've seen a few of these cases here myself: they ALL complain that the front tooth filling falls off, while expecting to be able to hang the WHOLE mouth occlusion on the remaining three or six anterior teeth at the most. If this person has _NO_ posterior teeth, as I suspect is the real problem, I'd be saying to get a crown. Even then, he'd be taking a chance. An NTI would be mandatory if he wants me to warranty the case for two years. If not, the next step is another broken filling, as there is surely a deep bite, limiting the Labio-lingual thickness for the filling material, and thus limiting its strength. He is not going to pay for opening the bite, or he would not even be posting this pinch-penny question. So, in a nut-shell: I say he has posterior collapse or posterior incompetance, necessitating a crown and an NTI with no guarantees. He has to understand that one will be addressing the result of the problem without addressing the cause. JMO SP > > Careful bite adjustment and an NTI would sure help. > > I could be all wrong on this case, but being as it fell off so soon, I would > be very suspicious of the need for an occlusal adjustment. And, NTI after > that. If I looked in the back and saw 2 or more crowns, and some > questionable filings, I would be discussing parafunction real quick. > Amatus > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >> to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this > >> spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. Good catch Pipey, didn't notice that. Tunnel Vision. >Now, hold on there, guys: Look closely at that photo: Do youse see any >white stuff inside the mouth? _I_ sure don't.... He ain't got no [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> >> to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this >> >> spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Good catch Pipey, didn't notice that. >Tunnel Vision. Stoveperson May be right, but I cannot tell from the image. I would expect more incisal wear if there were no posteriors. Amatus >Good catch Pipey, didn't notice that. >Tunnel Vision. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >>> >> to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this >>> >> spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. .. Amatus . Stoveperson May be right, but I cannot tell from the image. I would expect more incisal wear if there were no posteriors. Amatus ============ Depends on the inter-arch relation, I would say. Either you get a deep bite, splaying of the anterior superior teeth, or wear if the patient functions edge edge. I'd like to see what the cingulum area of this incisor looks like. I'd be willing to bet he has no cingulum left, and quite a bit of wear on the palatal side, as he is using this tooth as an inciso-molar. "Well, I GOTTA do that.... I can't wear a partial, 'cuz it'll make me wretch, I just KNOW it..." Sorry to be so negative, but I am at the point where I have NO sympathy left for those types of patients. I will not support them because they will not support themselves. SP W_B wrote-ed: 6. W_B Good catch Pipey, didn't notice that. Tunnel Vision. ========== I live it every day... The land of the cheap..... When in doubt; whip it out.... To Hell with the consequences... We'll eat like cows on our front teeth for the rest of thier lives.... ... And we'll even joke about it.... If you ever get the chance: look at some Québecois music videos... Look at the close-ups of the singers... Jeez: those NTI's are EXPENSIVE.... Fine.... but _I_ am not going to guarantee the results on the consequences of those decisions. Youse, on the other hand, live in the land of $$$$ and 'Yes, we'll find a way to pay Junior's teeth' Different mind-set. <the Pipe bites another piece of the cigar off...> SP >Youse, on the other hand, live in the land of $$$$ and 'Yes, we'll find >a way to pay Junior's teeth' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] ><the Pipe bites another piece of the cigar off...> >SP I've known several dentists who had a prosthetics based practice. Rather succesful too. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I've known several dentists who had a prosthetics based practice. Rather succesful too. W_B ============== If it came to that, I'd go get some continuing ed to learn to do prostheses quickly and effeciently. As it it, ew do good work in that area, but it takes too damn long to make any money with it. <The Pipe stuffs the rest of the (lit) cigar up his nose....> SP >I've known several dentists who had a prosthetics >based practice. Rather succesful too. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] ><The Pipe stuffs the rest of the (lit) cigar up his nose....> >SP There are some key steps in dental prosthetics. A great impression, a great lab, and a good design. Have had the same prosth. lab for 17 year, he ain't cheap but our remakes over the years are less than a dozen. What does continuing ed have to do with it ? Didn't they teach this in Kanadian Dental ? What are you having trouble with, perhaps I can help. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B sed: What does continuing ed have to do with it ? Didn't they teach this in Kanadian Dental ? What are you having trouble with, perhaps I can help. -- I always liked prosthesis, but I was always the last in to get my stuff approved and always the last to get case acceptance in school. One of the prosthos who coached me over the two clinical years told me that if I wanted to do more than starve, I should limit my prosthetics to the easy stuff, as I would take too long and too many appointments to do it well. He said my patients would eventually complain and go somewhere else. Not because the work would be bad (I wouldn't cook a denture until the occluding and phonetics fit well, and I woudn't ask for final payment until it sat well with no sore spots). It just seemed to me that there was always something in every case I did that I should not have overlooked, and which resulted in making the case take longer than it should have. I also disagreed with him on every case as to what the vertical dimension should be and what the centric relation was. So in a nutshell, I liked Removable, but it doesn't like me. You need a good, practiced eye to be able to see the free way space as it should be, support of the lips and cheeks, keep the teeth over the ridges, and develop acceptable phonetics, all on well-adjusted wax occlusion rings. IMO, that kind of operation (a practice based on Removable) is not going to get me out of our financial straights. Thanks SP >W_B sed: >What does continuing ed have to do with it ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I always liked prosthesis, but I was always the last in to get my stuff >approved and always the last to get case acceptance in school. >One of >the prosthos who coached me over the two clinical years told me that if >I wanted to do more than starve, I should limit my prosthetics to the >easy stuff, as I would take too long and too many appointments to do it >well. He said my patients would eventually complain and go somewhere >else. Nothing quite like good ole dental school confidence building. >Not because the work would be bad (I wouldn't cook a denture >until the occluding and phonetics fit well, and I woudn't ask for >final payment until it sat well with no sore spots). An unpaid for denture never fits. This is not in anyone's best interest. >It just seemed to >me that there was always something in every case I did that I should >not have overlooked, and which resulted in making the case take longer >than it should have. How long should a case take ? >I also disagreed with him on every case as to what >the vertical dimension should be and what the centric relation was. Base VDO on profile, and forget CR. If you get the profile right CR will be there. >So in a nutshell, I liked Removable, but it doesn't like me. You need a >good, practiced eye to be able to see the free way space as it should >be, support of the lips and cheeks, keep the teeth over the ridges, and >develop acceptable phonetics, all on well-adjusted wax occlusion rings. Now are we talking about RPD or Complete Dentures here ? You sound like you have the concepts but are making this harder than it really is. I was lucky in knowing two docs who graduated in the 60's who showed me how easy CD's could be constructed with a few tricks. Teeth directly over ridges is not always the correct postition especially in resorbed cases, my tech and me tend to go for the neutro-centric style of set-up for CD's, it works well. Phonetics such as sixty-six and missippi are good for judging freeway space and 'S' sounds. The rest of the phonetics will be done by the patient after wearing the completed prosthesis for a while, usually no longer that 2 - 3 weeks but many times within days. > IMO, that kind of operation (a practice based on Removable) is not >going to get me out of our financial straights. > >Thanks >SP -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com For the record... I have *plenty* of posterior teeth. All of 'em. Sorry for the rotten photo. > Now, hold on there, guys: Look closely at that photo: Do youse see any > white stuff inside the mouth? _I_ sure don't.... He ain't got no [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>>>to look for the latero-protrusive bracing positions where you work this >>>>spot with the lower tooth and carefully recontour some teeth. 11. Grumpy richard 7 nov 08:52 afficher les options Groupes de discussion : sci.med.dentistry De : Grumpy richard <grumpyrich...@no.junk.please.grumpyrichard.com> - Rechercher les messages de cet auteur Date : Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:52:16 -0500 Local : Lun 7 nov 2005 08:52 Objet : Re: Crown or Fill? Répondre | Répondre à l'auteur | Transférer | Imprimer | Message individuel | Afficher l'original | Signaler un cas d'utilisation abusive For the record... I have *plenty* of posterior teeth. All of 'em. Sorry for the rotten photo. ============ Then I stand corrected on that count, and it is _I_ who look like a trout-faced haddock stuck to the middle of some dart board in some obscure pub in Leeds..... Sorry........ :-/ My advice would change somewhat; Get your dentist to take full impressions in VinylPolySiloxane material, pour up the models and articulate them in his hands. Carefully move them around each other in small circles and feel the areas of interference through the models into his fingers. He should mark these interferences with a red felt marker. Now, he should file those interferences with a lab knife, and keep going marking and filing like this until the models slide over each other with out interference. When looking at the models, you see round red marks around where the interferences were, but now the tips have been eliminated. The next step is to do _some_ of that work in the real mouth (Only the most obvious ones, and maybe even just one at a time). Have him correct the most important interferences and stop there. He should let you go and evaluate things for awhile. When you come back, he takes models again, and he evaluates the interferences he finds now with the original models he took in your mouth. When the mouth is accepable wrt interferences, your filling will probably be better off wrt retention. I hope that DrS will correct me if there is a major flaw in what I've said here, but that is how I understand this technique, and that is how I apply it. You must work out a fair fee for this with your dentist. One thing to look for immediately upon such a scenario is the back contacts of the teeth. If you have a back tooth that is angulated forward, or only a part of that tooth angulated forward, it can tend to push the mandible forward and that will put undue force onto your front teeth. This happens typically when a back tooth has been recently (or even not so recently) restored, and there is a contact that is not necessarily high, but on a forward angle. Regardless, you will need protection for that tooth during the night time (as you can well see, it is not caries that caused this filling to drop out and enlarge, it is a weak tooth taking too much force. Again, HTH, and sorry to treat you as one of the .... individuals... that I see often in my practice (and on which I waste no more time). BTW why does Google make me post twice?????? Cheers SP I would add that the dentist needs to nunt for the latero-protrusive bracing positon prior to modifying the models. Recurrent fractures on anterior teeth are often the fulcrum for this bracing postion. The dentist has to plan the occlusal adjustment iwth this in mind. Remember that the mandible can flex a fair bit, so just grinding the anterior spot out of passive occlusion will not be enough. You have to owrk around elininating the tripod used for the laero-protrusive bracing postion as well as its fulcrum. SM > 11. Grumpy richard > 7 nov 08:52 afficher les options [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >Cheers >SP ``````````````````````` Stephen (What's a temporary?) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Al Consider a porcelain veneer. These are usually best matched in pairs. Noticed that the other central has a chip in the corner. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >popped out pretty quickly (one in 24 hours, one in a few weeks, even >though I was being careful with it). Get a dentist who is better versed in adhesion dentistry ...... >My question: is it reasonable to expect a filling to hold here? Or >should I go with a crown? > >Thanks! > >Al Get a dentist who is better versed in adhesion dentistry ...... ********************************************************************** I think Cremona might be well-versed. Didn't he write the theme song? -Sue > I think Cremona might be well-versed. Didn't he write the theme song? Still working on the score right now. Signature/ Amatus / > Get a dentist who is better versed in adhesion dentistry ...... > ********************************************************************** > > I think Cremona might be well-versed. Didn't he write the theme song? > > -Sue >> I think Cremona might be well-versed. Didn't he write the theme song? > >Still working on the score right now. No score ... yet ........ this is the hygienist thread, right? The lateral has a large fill as well. Looks like you have the right genetics for being prone to decay and gum disease. Oral hygiene is not that hot either. (I know you try, but the gums should look a lot better and there should not be so much plaque on the teeth. It is possible the plaque is preventing getting a good bond.) I think you are better off with 4 crowns (ie the 4 teeth between your upper eye teeth (canines). The crowns will at least hide the restorative material tooth junction slightly below the gums out of reach of the elements as one might say. We call this a Class IV restoration and it can be restored with a composite. The trick is a large bevel and solid etching. Composite sticks to (adheres to) enamel extremely well, and adheres to dentin less well. This is why it pops off! Joel >I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Al >This is why it pops off! I disagree with the esteemed JmE. It probably fails due to occlusal disease. Amatus >We call this a Class IV restoration and it can be restored with a >composite. The trick is a large bevel and solid etching. Composite [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >>Al .. Amatus . 16. Amatus Cremona ------------------------ >This is why it pops off! --------------------------------- I disagree with the esteemed JmE. It probably fails due to occlusal disease. Amatus --------------------- I have to agree with AC here: a beveled edge won't do it: Too much destructive forces. I would do a chamfer that starts real shallow at the broken edge, and gets gradually deeper as it approaches the opposite (intact) transition line angle. This is to get some material thickness, but as JME says, it has to stay in the enamel for best retention. I would do the same thing on the lingual, but shorter; maybe the mesio-distal thickness of the carbide steel 1157 bur that I would use to do the chamfer. I would then place an automatrix loosely with wedges and/or a plastic filling instrument into the proximal to seal it in and zap the whole tooth the Danville MicroEtcher II-A, fully autoclavable, to get increased retention everywhere. If I was going to build it up with a matrix in place, I'd change the one that was there (to protect the gums and adjacent teeth) because it gets etched by the sand as well. When applying the composite, I'd not bulk-cure it. I'd add a little bit, cure for 20 seconds, etc etc etc and in that way get rid of as much of the contraction stress as possible. I would prolly do all this without anesthesia, as there is very probably little or no life left in that tooth, and so he'd be able to evaluate the occlusion right away. At any rate, once the hybridized layer of bonding stuff woudl be laid down, he'd have no more cold sensitivity..... Do not forget that when the filling "popped out" of the OP's tooth, it took some tooth material with it.... Does this not say something to all-a youse?. If 'dat tooth ain't _daid_ it sure ain't Poing Poom Check either.... In this way, I'd stand less of a chance of looking like a trout-faced haddock stuck to a dart board in some obscure bar in Leeds when the patient came back with it broken..... I'd say: Do you remember how much time we took to do that thing right?????? Preparing the tooth; sandblasting.... bonding and adding the stuff a bit at a time..... Adjusting.... But you didn't buy the idea of an NTI, did you? Did you go look at the web site like I asked you to???? Yes it's in English, but it's not difficult English..... and I told you I'd explain anything you didn't understand..... BUT NAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! .... why am I saying all this?????????? Y'all know how to do this 10 times as better'n I do....... <the Pipe rises to go take a leak..... while washing his hands, he looks up at hisself in the mirror: YEP, he looks JUST LIKE a trout-faced haddock stuck to a dart board in some obscure bar in Leeds... > <The Pipe heaves a mighty sigh.....> SP ========================== <joeleic...@yahoo.com> wrote: >We call this a Class IV restoration and it can be restored with a >composite. The trick is a large bevel and solid etching. Composite >sticks to (adheres to) enamel extremely well, and adheres to dentin >less well. >This is why it pops off! >Joel >On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:30:30 -0500, Alan Cohen ><a...@no.junk.please.cornell.edu> wrote: >>I'm looking for some advice from this esteemed group... >>I had a small filling in one of my front teeth, which popped out, taking >>a nice triangular chunk of tooth with it; I put up a lovely out-of-focus >>picture at: >>http://cobelle.org/node/1 >>My dentist has tried to fill it twice, but both times the replacement >>popped out pretty quickly (one in 24 hours, one in a few weeks, even >>though I was being careful with it). >>My question: is it reasonable to expect a filling to hold here? Or >>should I go with a crown? >>Thanks! >>Al .. Amatus . >When applying the composite, I'd not bulk-cure it. I'd > add a little bit, cure for 20 seconds, etc etc etc and in that way get > rid of as much of the contraction stress as possible. Anybody stop to figure out how much difference in contraction strength there is between incremental build-up and bulk fill ? You still have the same amount of internal stress regardless of the thickness of the increment. Signature/ Amatus / > 16. Amatus Cremona > ------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > . >>When applying the composite, I'd not bulk-cure it. I'd >> add a little bit, cure for 20 seconds, etc etc etc and in that way get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >is between incremental build-up and bulk fill ? You still have the same >amount of internal stress regardless of the thickness of the increment. Cover the floors and walls with flowable and cure. Pack in Z 250 with finger or thumb, contour with a burnisher. Cure the lot, trim and finish. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Cover the floors and walls with flowable and cure. > Pack in Z 250 with finger or thumb, contour with a burnisher. > Cure the lot, trim and finish. Why cure the flowable separately? Signature/ Amatus / > >>>When applying the composite, I'd not bulk-cure it. I'd [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Not that you have total control over how shrinkage will occur, but keeping the first layer of flowable on dentin is meant to enhance the strength at the dentin/composite interface. In theory, if some of the composite were in contact with enamel (or even a big blob of shrinking/curing composite), the dentin bond may be less secure. After the first cure, I place the main composite into a small amount of 'wet' flowable and cure together. Most of the flowable gets forced out of the prep, but this ensures that I haven't left any small voids that the thicker composite might not easily fill. Dartos >>Cover the floors and walls with flowable and cure. >>Pack in Z 250 with finger or thumb, contour with a burnisher. >>Cure the lot, trim and finish. > > Why cure the flowable separately? > keeping the first layer of flowable on dentin is meant to > enhance the strength at the dentin/composite interface. In theory, > if some of the composite were in contact with enamel (or even a > big blob of shrinking/curing composite), the dentin bond may be > less secure. You may be right. As of yet, we have mostly just theories on how to do this best. I like a layer of flowable to wet the surface and prevent voids. I think bonding strength is much more dependent on the interface of BA than to the filler content of the composite touching the BA. My personal take is that, if you coat the entire surface with flowable, then push the filled resin against it, you are still going to get a thin layer of composite against the tooth surface. I don't think you can push it all out of the way. What you end up with is a thinner layer of flowable as the excess tends to push to top of the preparation. Just my take on it. Pushing hundreds of ceramic onlays to place gives me lots of opportunity to watch this happen, as well. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just expressing my view of it. Signature/ Amatus / > Not that you have total control over how shrinkage will occur, > but keeping the first layer of flowable on dentin is meant to [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> Why cure the flowable separately? We're just splitting hairs. I have no argument with your stance. D > I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just expressing my view of it. > We're just splitting hairs. I have no argument with your stance. Then, what are we going to get into an argument over, then go buy a couple of drinks to settle up ? Signature/ Amatus / > > We're just splitting hairs. I have no argument with your stance. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just expressing my view of >> it. Ammmmmmmmmmmmmatus sayeth: What you end up with is a thinner layer of flowable as the excess tends to push to top of the preparation. Just my take on it. Pushing hundreds of ceramic onlays to place gives me lots of opportunity to watch this happen, as well. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, just expressing my view of it. Amatus ++++++++++++++++ So does this mean that you use flowable under your heated Z100 or am I all at sea here? There is a relatively easy way to demostrate the above: I'm gonna get some extracted tooths and cut off the roots and etch and bond and flow and hybrid and cure with and w/o curing the flowable layer first and etc and then hit 'em with a hammer: we'll see which format SPLATS the most. OK, it is not scientific, but if the cavity sizes are similar, it should give an idea which way gives the best seal. <the Pipe puts on an old Peter Gabriel song> You could be a speed train..... SP > So does this mean that you use flowable under your heated Z100 yes. I probably don't need it, but using it allows me to see that the tough parts of the prep (for the resin to reach) are wet with composite of some sort. Due to the viscosity difference, the flowable gets mostly pushed out of the preparation as the onlay is pushed in. I see it as a wetting agent only in this case. Signature/ Amatus / > Ammmmmmmmmmmmmatus sayeth: > What you end up with is a thinner layer of flowable as the excess [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > SP > > So does this mean that you use flowable under your heated Z100 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of the preparation as the onlay is pushed in. I see it as a wetting agent > only in this case. OK, thanks SP > > So does this mean that you use flowable under your heated Z100 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of the preparation as the onlay is pushed in. I see it as a wetting agent > only in this case. You know, you could try this: put a Cavitron on the onlay and vibrate it abit at low power with no water. I'm willing to bet the material has thixotropic properties like wet stone does, and so vibrating it will make it flow. So vibrating it before light curing would tend to fill in the voids without the need for flowable. I'm gonna try that and I'll report back on what happens. Perhaps even better would be to put a pneumatic Am plugger on it, if you have one of those. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Perhaps even better would be to put a >pneumatic Am plugger on it, if you have one of those. >SP Have seen Amatus use it IRL. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Have seen Amatus use it IRL. Just did it again about 10 minutes ago. Back in the previous century, I used the amalgam vibrators for packing amalgam cores really tightly. You would be amazed at how well amalgam condenses with one of those toys. It does not reciprocate like the old gold foil condensers or the Profin handpiece, but vibrates like a lab vibrator for pouring models or like the device the masons use to make sure all the concrete is settled to the bottom of the form with no voids. With the rubber tip, it becomes perfect for seating indirect restorations. Signature/ Amatus / > >> Perhaps even better would be to put a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > With the rubber tip, it becomes perfect for > seating indirect restorations. I shall endeavor to undertake the proceedings of the task of drafting a proposal to procure one of those things; perhaps on eBay.... I don't think they still make them... for the Saab or otherwise... Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > I don't think they still make them... for the Saab or otherwise... With autoclaving, the center contra-angle fitting tends to wear out and eventually the threads will no longer hold the parts together tightly. So , I have to order a new one about once a year. I keep 4 of them on hand (to eliminate waiting time in the autoclave). I order them from Patterson. They take 2-15 days to come in depending on the phase of the third moon around Saturn. Signature/ Amatus / > >> With the rubber tip, it becomes perfect for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks > SP > > I don't think they still make them... for the Saab or otherwise... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They take 2-15 days to come in depending on the phase of the third moon > around Saturn. A-Ha.... then I shall order them when the Moon is in the Seventh House, and Jupiter lies with Mars... then Peace shall guide their Planet... and love will fill the stars.... Gawd were we naive.... PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not too much ligh pollution, you should see a couple of the moons around Jupiter. Saturn? I think you'd need a real telescope, powered by a carious SUV. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not > too much light pollution, you should see a couple of the moons around > Jupiter. Saturn? I think you'd need a real telescope, powered by a > carious SUV. Here in Cancun, Mx, there are too many lights from all the street lamps and shopping centers. I can barely count 5 stars in the evening sky. Signature/ Amatus / > >> > I don't think they still make them... for the Saab or otherwise... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > carious SUV. > SP >>PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not >>too much light pollution, you should see a couple of the moons around [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here in Cancun, Mx, there are too many lights from all the street lamps and > shopping centers. I can barely count 5 stars in the evening sky. Amatus-- I would think all the moving around you're doing lately would play havoc with the musical instruments, esp. with the different climates. Do you have some of them new-fangled custom cases with the high-tech hoooomidity control? Steve > I would think all the moving around you're doing lately would play havoc > with the musical instruments, esp. with the different climates. > Do you have some of them new-fangled custom cases with the high-tech > hoooomidity control? Humidistat in the case only. I use a Dampit right now as the house has hot water heat which ends up creating dry air. The Dampit is sort of a pain, since you have to saturate it every time you put your instrument away. Time to replace the old humidifier in the back of the house. I just ordered an electric instrument with head-phones. I hope to be able to get some practice time at the office on those extra long lunch hours, which come up once in a while. The electric should not have any response to humidity at all. If it works out well, I can use that one for practice while traveling. No one wants to hear someone practice, as that is the time you work out tones and techniques, not very pleasant to listen to. Just put a set of Tomastik Infeld Red-Label strings on the "free" Strad-Copy this week. Very nice soft tone. Any string which is advertised as having "brilliant" sound comes out too loud and almost harsh on that instrument. This is the third set of strings I have put on this instrument. Each time, I am able to get the sound a bit closer to what I want. Amazing how a 70 year old hunk of glued together wood can make so much noise. I timed it the other day, and the body actually resonates sound for about 30 seconds after you stop playing, especially on the "G" string. The old Amati-Copy instrument just will not project from the bass half . The treble half does project great sound. There are a couple of repaired cracks in the belly. I suspect the one closer to the bass-bar is not repaired well and preventing the sound from traveling from the bridge to the bass-bar, then out to the belly of the instrument. I had to move the sound post in front of the bridge to get any sound from the bass side. Before moving the sound post, the "D" and "G" strings sounded like there was an ebony mute on the bridge. It needs to visit the luthier soon. The rather new Knilling instrument (also a Strad-Copy) is such a thick instrument, that humidity changes have less effect on it. The Knilling has a slightly "flat" sound to it, so I plan to trade up that one this winter. I do notice that the Tomastik strings seem to require less re-tuning than the D'adarrio strings did. I have an Obligato gold "E" string I want to try. It is supposed to have a "soft" sound . You guitar guys go through more effort getting strings to match your instrument, don't you ? Do you change strings to match the music you are playing ? Once we get an instrument to perform on a particular combination of strings, that instrument will basically always get those same strings for as long as the strings are still made. Some string players will change instruments for playing in a concert hall or a small room. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve ato gold "E" string I want to >try. It is supposed to have a "soft" sound . > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >as long as the strings are still made. Some string players will change >instruments for playing in a concert hall or a small room. Not so much on an electric as the tone largely comes from the pick-ups. The vibration of the body certainly plays a large part in the tone of an electric, but there's not much you can do to change that <hehe>. I use a heavier gauged set than most electric players, and to my ear there is a 'beefier' tone. SB should be able to advise you on classicals. Steel string acoustic tone is more dependant on the bracing and top than the string IMO. I look for a long lasting string (tone dies on fretted instruments due to flat spots worn into the string from the frets) So you have to balance string wear v. fret wear. D'Addario still my preference. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Steel string acoustic tone is more dependant on the > bracing and top than the string IMO. > I look for a long lasting string (tone dies on fretted instruments > due to flat spots worn into the string from the frets) > So you have to balance string wear v. fret wear. > D'Addario still my preference. At least I don't have to deal with flat spots. Tone dies when the string will no longer hold tension. It will be interesting to see how long this very fine "E" string pulled from a gold alloy will last. Signature/ Amatus / > ato gold "E" string I want to >>try. It is supposed to have a "soft" sound . [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Steel string acoustic tone is more dependant on the >> bracing and top than the string IMO. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >will no longer hold tension. It will be interesting to see how long this >very fine "E" string pulled from a gold alloy will last. Had some gold alloy strings long time ago. They lasted a very long time, no corrosion. Expensive to replace. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Had some gold alloy strings long time ago. > They lasted a very long time, no corrosion. > > Expensive to replace. With the tension on the "E" string, I figure it will lose tone eventually from stretching out. Gold seems to have less elastic memory than the other metals. So far, the "E" string has been in tune every time I pick it up. While the "A", "D", and "G" strings all have needed a slight tightening when I take it out of the case. These are bout $16-$20 each. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Steel string acoustic tone is more dependant on the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Had some gold alloy strings long time ago. >> They lasted a very long time, no corrosion. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >While the "A", "D", and "G" strings all have needed a slight tightening when >I take it out of the case. These are bout $16-$20 each. Think that the strings I had were gold plated steel. With a very thick plate though it never seemed to wear off except in the fret positions. Could be composite metalurgy. Have a good TG. Well, at least a nice book to read. :-0 -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Have a good TG. > Well, at least a nice book to read. :-0 Thank you. My best to you and the ladies. Wish we were sharing this time together. I am bringing my tablet which has about 30 books down-loaded on eReader format. I have about 30 CD's on my iPod as well. I wish I could bring an instrument. The niece's husband (whose house this will be at) is a school teacher who also teaches marching band. I am not looking forward to driving 2-3 hours North of home to get there in this snowy weather. Especially since we will be taking the wife's red car rather than the SUV. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Had some gold alloy strings long time ago. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Had some gold alloy strings long time ago. >>They lasted a very long time, no corrosion. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > While the "A", "D", and "G" strings all have needed a slight tightening when > I take it out of the case. These are bout $16-$20 each. For classical guitars, the third "G" string is usually the biggest problem. Tends to have more dead spots, get out of tune, etc. I'm not sure why, but it's not just me. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > For classical guitars, the third "G" string is usually the biggest >problem. Tends to have more dead spots, get out of tune, etc. I'm not >sure why, but it's not just me. > >Steve Most often played string perhaps ? 3rd is fretted in most chording ? Dunno... -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >> For classical guitars, the third "G" string is usually the biggest >>problem. Tends to have more dead spots, get out of tune, etc. I'm not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Take out the G'RBAGE I've heard that some steel string sets have unwound G strings, but obviously most are wound. Classical G strings are unwound. I don't know the rationale for winding the lower strings, but obviously the G string is right in the middle, and probably neither wound nor unwound does the job very well. I think I've seen an explanation somewhere, but I don't remember. I'll try googling for it if I get the chance. Happy Thanksgiving! Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >>> For classical guitars, the third "G" string is usually the biggest >>>problem. Tends to have more dead spots, get out of tune, etc. I'm not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> -- >> W_B > I've heard that some steel string sets have unwound G strings, but >obviously most are wound. Classical G strings are unwound. I don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Steve On my electrics and SS acoustics I prefer an unwound 3rd. As far as wound 4, 5, 6, would bet it goes back to the piano, and some physics. Afterall, most people wouldn't call a piano a 'stringed' instrument but technically it is. Really doubt that an unwound low E (at the gauge required) would be good in tonality, or comfortable to play. Not to mention would it stay in tune. There was a midi guitar a few years back that had nylon strings all the same gauge; don't remember the manufacturer but it wasn't a big hit. Really weird to play, tensions were bizarre and just chording resulted in string bend, muscle memory I guess... Anyway happy Thanksgiving to you and your entire family. Try to stay out of the nasty weather if you can. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>Steel string acoustic tone is more dependant on the >>>bracing and top than the string IMO. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W B--- Have you tried Elixirs, or any other coated strings? I bought a Baby Taylor a few years ago, and it came with Elixirs--they really, really lasted. Some folks don't like the feel--they're a bit slick. They are also very bright-sounding, which can sometimes be a drawback. They're maybe the price of 2 regular sets, but they last at least 5 times as long--at least they have for me. Too bad they don't make classical strings! http://www.elixirstrings.com/ Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >W B--- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >price of 2 regular sets, but they last at least 5 times as long--at >least they have for me. Too bad they don't make classical strings! Thanks for the tip, will try them out ! -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>I would think all the moving around you're doing lately would play havoc >>with the musical instruments, esp. with the different climates. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > as long as the strings are still made. Some string players will change > instruments for playing in a concert hall or a small room. Yeah, you can go into the guitar newsgroups and see string arguments all the time. Just this week there was a discussion about new (classical) strings stretching, whether to over-tune them to get them to settle quicker. While I hear of guitarists liking different strings on different instruments, there tend to be advocates of one string over another. Some of the guitarists split sets--one brand for the wound and another for the unwound strings. I would guess that a lot of the same manufacturers make guitar and violin strings, though they may be sold under different names. I use D'Addario EJ45s, which are considered a pretty "neutral" sounding string. The generally available brands include Aranjuez, Augustine, Galli, Hannabach, LaBella, Sarvaez, and Tomastik. The non-classical guys have a whole other set of brands. I don't use dampits. I've heard of guys over-soaking them and having them leak on the instrument. I bought a guitar last winter on ebay (!) and the seller was in Florida. He cautioned me to keep the guitar in its case and in the carton for 24 hours before taking it out. I did, and there were no problems. SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Amazing how a 70 > year old hunk of glued together wood can make so much noise. ..... obviously, you've never had a recorder-like straight horn with a piece of swamp-grass stuck in it, along with three or five resonating poles stuck into and sewn into the dried out stomach of a yak, and held all that tucked under your arm as you fill this 'bladder-horn-grass-thing' with air through a pipe that keeps falling outtta your mouth, as you try to finger the key holes on that f'ing horn...... Welcome to the bagPipes, laddy.... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply >> Amazing how a 70 >> year old hunk of glued together wood can make so much noise. The new strings have finally broke in. The difference in sound is not believable >..... obviously, you've never had a recorder-like straight horn with a >piece of swamp-grass stuck in it, along with three or five resonating [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Welcome to the bagPipes, laddy.... >SP .. Amatus . >> PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not >> too much light pollution, you should see a couple of the moons around [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Here in Cancun, Mx, there are too many lights from all the street lamps and >shopping centers. I can barely count 5 stars in the evening sky. Here in Mx City the light pollution is even worse. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > > PS: if you use real good binoculars, on a cold night, where there's not > > too much light pollution, you should see a couple of the moons around [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -- .... Then drink some more Corona, without the lime... aftere about ten or so, you should be able to see all the stars and moons you want.... and then you should be able to pass out and wake up in some gutter without your pants, shoes, watch, wallet..... Great Fun, that... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > > Perhaps even better would be to put a > >pneumatic Am plugger on it, if you have one of those. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I bet it was powered by one of the Saab's. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply >> > Perhaps even better would be to put a >> >pneumatic Am plugger on it, if you have one of those. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> W_B >I bet it was powered by one of the Saab's. >SP The two stroke Saabs are lacking in enough horse power for this application. Ring ding ding ding -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Trabant? Signature""""" Philip Atooth {Tooth mechanic extraordinaire} """" >>> > Perhaps even better would be to put a >>> >pneumatic Am plugger on it, if you have one of those. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Dartos explains: After the first cure, I place the main composite into a small amount of 'wet' flowable and cure together. Most of the flowable gets forced out of the prep, but this ensures that I haven't left any small voids that the thicker composite might not easily fill. Dartos So: the Big D explains in four lines what it took me a whole chapter to say. Some people have the gift of clear thinking and therefore clear writing. Bravo SP I've learned to expound when necessary, but I've always tended to cut to the chase. I remember an essay question in high school where I answered in one paragraph. The teacher gave me 3 out of 5 possible points. He had a classmate read her answer (about a page long) and explained how she had listed all five areas that he wanted to have covered. I reread my answer and I also had given all five points...just without any fluff. I raised my hand and asked the teacher if he would tell me what I had missed with my answer. After I read it aloud to him he stuttered a little and gave me full credit. We both learned a little that day. I worked to become a better writer and he started judging essay questions more on content than style (this wasn't English class!). :-) Dartos > Dartos explains: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Bravo > SP > I reread my answer and I also had given all five points...just without > any fluff. I raised my hand and asked the teacher if he would > tell me what I had missed with my answer. After I read it aloud > to him he stuttered a little and gave me full credit. Makes you wonder if he read it the first time Signature/ Amatus / > > I've learned to expound when necessary, but I've always tended [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> Bravo >> SP > We both learned a little that day. I worked to become a better > writer and he started judging essay questions more on content > than style (this wasn't English class!). But, unfortunately, it is ALWAYS English class!!!! You can be the best thinker in the world, but if your message is esthetically and grammatically unattractive, you will be ignored. Same in dentistry isn't it? If you don't know how to communicate and package your message, and if you don't know how to package and present _yourself_ to your patient, you could be the best technician in the world-- but you are still finishing last due to the English class barrier. I have alot of trouble in this area. I am learning to pause a few seconds before answering a patient's question, to better compose my verbal essay. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply >> Cover the floors and walls with flowable and cure. >> Pack in Z 250 with finger or thumb, contour with a burnisher. >> Cure the lot, trim and finish. > >Why cure the flowable separately? To seal the deepest parts of the prep. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B a écrit : > >> Cover the floors and walls with flowable and cure. > >> Pack in Z 250 with finger or thumb, contour with a burnisher. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > To seal the deepest parts of the prep. > W_B ============== Karl Leinfelter would say: to create an elastic layer that will hopefully hold the bulk of composite stuck to the walls and floor as the stuff shrinks on polymerization. SP >Karl Leinfelter would say: to create an elastic layer that will >hopefully hold the bulk of composite stuck to the walls and floor as >the stuff shrinks on polymerization. But, the same shrinkage and internal stress is in the flowable. Once the bulk is in place and hardened, the internal stress is a three-dimensional shrinkage, regardless. Signature/ Amatus / W_B a écrit : > On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:56:06 GMT, "Amatus Cremona" <Nicola@sottovocce.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > To seal the deepest parts of the prep. > W_B ============== Karl Leinfelter would say: to create an elastic layer that will hopefully hold the bulk of composite stuck to the walls and floor as the stuff shrinks on polymerization. SP > >Karl Leinfelter would say: to create an elastic layer that will > >hopefully hold the bulk of composite stuck to the walls and floor as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bulk is in place and hardened, the internal stress is a three-dimensional > shrinkage, regardless. Not exactly: the bulk modulus of elasticity of FLOWABLE is much lower than that of filled composite. That means it is more elastic ( it will stretch more before it rips ). This is the whole idea behind using it as the go-between layer. I think of it as an elastic diaper around the filled composite interface. SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Not exactly: the bulk modulus of elasticity of FLOWABLE is much lower > than that of filled composite. That means it is more elastic ( it will > stretch more before it rips ). This is the whole idea behind using it as > the go-between layer. I think of it as an elastic diaper around the > filled composite interface. But it still has internal stress due to shrinkage. Is it clinically significant, maybe not. However, I have yet to see a study showing me conclusively that how you place the composite effects the _final_ internal stress of the restoration. Maybe I have just missed them, or maybe they have not been done. How you place and cure the composite can have big influence on getting each portion of it fully cured and get your contours proper with no voids, but I don't see how it will have any effect on final internal stresses. Signature/ Amatus / > >> >Karl Leinfelter would say: to create an elastic layer that will [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > filled composite interface. > SP > How you place and cure the composite can have big > influence on getting each portion of it fully cured and get your contours > proper with no voids, but I don't see how it will have any effect on final > internal stresses. I don't doubt that this is true. ....BUT yo' moma still dresses ya funny!!!! SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > ....BUT yo' moma still dresses ya funny!!!! Waaaaaahhh ! Signature/ Amatus / > >> How you place and cure the composite can have big [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ....BUT yo' moma still dresses ya funny!!!! > SP > > ....BUT yo' moma still dresses ya funny!!!! > > Waaaaaahhh ! <the Pipe faces the Teacher: > Well _he_ started it!... SP SignatureTake out the TRAASH to reply > Well _he_ started it!... I know you are, BUT WHAT AM I ? Signature/ Amatus / > >> > ....BUT yo' moma still dresses ya funny!!!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > SP >> Well _he_ started it!... > >I know you are, BUT WHAT AM I ? You're glue. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > You're glue. WaaaaHHHH ! Mommy ! W_B is being mean to me again ! Signature/ Amatus / > >>> Well _he_ started it!... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> Well _he_ started it!... >> >>I know you are, BUT WHAT AM I ? > >You're glue. I am rubber you are glue.. aka Guybrush Threepwood...LOL Ann My take on the issue (remember, I'm a stupid tooth carpenter <G>) is that a 4 mm X 4 mm chunk of composite is going to have the same total contraction whether it is cured in bulk or in 4 layers. However, the way a composite may be layered can alter the angles and amount of stress in the total restoration. With over 20 years experience placing posterior composites, I haven't found any real problem with bulk cure on small restorations. I also don't go crazy with 1 mm increments in medium sized restorations. I typically put a thin layer of flowable on the dentin, cure, fill the proximal box up to the contact height, cure, one more layer, cure, and finish. On huge fillings, I will use not only more layers, but I will fill sections of the prep and cure, rather than one whole layer at once. Clinical results have been good. JME, Dartos >>When applying the composite, I'd not bulk-cure it. I'd >>add a little bit, cure for 20 seconds, etc etc etc and in that way get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is between incremental build-up and bulk fill ? You still have the same > amount of internal stress regardless of the thickness of the increment. You da man ! >My take on the issue (remember, I'm a stupid tooth carpenter <G>) >is that a 4 mm X 4 mm chunk of composite is going to have the same total [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >JME, >Dartos -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > However, the way a composite may be layered can alter the > angles and amount of stress in the total restoration. I find layering in huge holes makes it easier to place. I don't think it make a bit of difference on the internal stresses. Signature/ Amatus / > > My take on the issue (remember, I'm a stupid tooth carpenter <G>) [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> same amount of internal stress regardless of the thickness of the >> increment. Ammmmmmmmmmmatus annotated: I find layering in huge holes makes it easier to place. I don't think it make a bit of difference on the internal stresses. ½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½ But that's because you practice in (Stand Back....): Camel Hump Wyoming, nestled within the confines of beautiful Notrona County: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wynatron/ And as the local Bis-GMAian Indian sages know, all reaonable laws of Physics are suspended in Camel Hump. That's OK :-) SP >And as the local Bis-GMAian Indian sages know, all reasonable laws of >Physics are suspended in Camel Hump. Internal stress due to shrinkage is a percentage of the bulk of the material. If you put it in one bulk increment and cure you have S x G% ("S" being the width or height of the prep and "G" being the amount of shrinkage for your material). If you do bulk increments, you get (S/T x G&)T ("T" being the number of increments you do). The total internal stress due to shrinkage is going to be the same. You simply load the stress into the tooth a little at a time. Signature/ Amatus / Ammmmmmmmmmmatus annotated: I find layering in huge holes makes it easier to place. I don't think it make a bit of difference on the internal stresses. ½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½½ But that's because you practice in (Stand Back....): Camel Hump Wyoming, nestled within the confines of beautiful Notrona County: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wynatron/ And as the local Bis-GMAian Indian sages know, all reaonable laws of Physics are suspended in Camel Hump. That's OK :-) SP From Peculiar, Missouri those stresses can be altered by the placement of those increments. If you placed each increment in full horizontal layers, there would be little difference. If some composite i |
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