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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / November 2005Root Canal Gone Bad - New Thread
I had to get out of the last thread as it was causing nothing but arguments. I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. Anyhow, as I was saying, I had the two root canals done at the same time and they made me very sick for the past four months. The dentist couldn't tell me what was going on and neither could my family doctor or the ENT he sent me to. All the blood work came back negative (for what, I don't know) and the CAT scan came back negative for sinusitis. Finally broke down last week and went back to the dentist - mainly just to show him that I was still messed up because of his root canals. This time he was a little more concerned and sent me to an endodonist. The endodonist found, by x-ray (which the dentist took plenty of, by the way), that my dentist had missed a canal and set up an appointment for him, the endo, to redo my root canal. I went just this past Wednesday and, I must confess, that I was horribly terrified as I had already endured a root canal that caused nothing but problems. He was taking pictures of my tooth with a microscope as he was working. As soon as he started drilling, I smelled this putrid odor emanating from my tooth. It was disgusting!!! He hasn't finished doing the root canal yet. I go back on November 2. He showed me the pictures he had taken of my tooth and I was appalled. He was explaining to me that there was decay inside my tooth and it had gotten infected. I asked if the decay had come from the missed canal and he said that it hadn't. It was kind of implied that the dentist had failed to remove that decay. I thought that was the whole point of a root canal....to clean the tooth up and to fill the canals!?! He told me that if I ever had to have another root canal done to make sure that I come back to him or go to another endodonist. Why the heck did this dentist perform a root canal if he didn't know how to do it right? Why not just refer me to a specialist to begin with? Was it just for the money, 'cuz it was rather an expensive procedure? So far I have racked up around $5,000 in doctors bills and lost wages. I'm a poor girl and I can't afford to be someone's guinea pig. I immediately began to feel better once all that crap was out of my tooth. That's why I believe in focal infection. The inside of my tooth WAS infected and I could sometimes taste that nasty stuff so I know it was leaching out of my tooth. And that WAS what was making me sick. All the proof I need is that gunk is gone and I feel sooooo much better. No more pain and burning behind my eye, no more dizziness or light headedness, no more tingling in my face, no more pain radiating up and around my head, no more anything.... the only symptom I have left is a little soreness in my cheek right above the tooth and that's because it was just worked on the other day. I am not tired and I actually have some energy today that I haven't had the past four months. And I got a good night's sleep last night. > The endodonist found, by x-ray (which the dentist took plenty of, by the way), > that my dentist had missed a canal and set up an appointment for him, the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to fill the canals!?! He told me that if I ever had to have another root > canal done to make sure that I come back to him or go to another endodonist. Hi Sherry, Usually when performing root canal treatment, it is not always necessary to remove all the "decay" that has affected the coronal part of the tooth (the part that can be seen in the mouth); if the root canals can be properly cleaned then the rest of the decay can be eradicated in the restoration appointment for a crown. This is done in some cases because if you end up cleaning all the decayed tooth structure, you may end up with little to put those rubber dam "clamps" on trhe tooth. > Why the heck did this dentist perform a root canal if he didn't know how to > do it right? Why not just refer me to a specialist to begin with? Was it > just for the money, 'cuz it was rather an expensive procedure? So far I have > racked up around $5,000 in doctors bills and lost wages. I'm a poor girl and > I can't afford to be someone's guinea pig. It is true that root canals are difficult and unpredictable. Even a specialist cannot offer you a 100% chance of success, like with all surgical procedures in medicine, but because he's doing root canals all day for the rest of his life, a specialist is usually more accomplished in doing them (the keyword here is "usually"). Also, I might say that the endodontist's remarks "come back here or go to another endodontist for all your root canals" seem like shameless advertisement of their specialty to me. I know GPs who do marvellous root canals and endodontists who do crap.I always dislike that attitude, that they are somehow superior to "mere mortal" GPs. > I immediately began to feel better once all that crap was out of my tooth. > That's why I believe in focal infection. The inside of my tooth WAS infected [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and I actually have some energy today that I haven't had the past four months. > And I got a good night's sleep last night. Glad to hear that! But I think you have misinterpreted the focal infection theory, which was discredited in the 20s after leading to the loss of many restorable teeth and threatening to leave many nations toothless and dependent on vast amouts of mashed potatoes for sustenance. Focal infection states that an infection in your tooth can cause problems in entirely different parts of your body. For example, you can get arthritis or liver problems from your failed root canal. What you had seems very natural to me. You had an active infection in your tooth, and this infection caused symptoms coming from surrounding areas, like the eyes, the face and the head. Very reasonable and hardly proof of focal infection. George Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are only human and only can try to do our best. Every tooth has different anatomy so it's not easy to predict how the rootcanal will come out. sounds like he did the right thing by referring to the specialist. It's easier to place blame on the dentist that did the rootcanal...but actually the real blame goes to you. Why did you fix the tooth before it became rootcanal? finances, lack of time.. but it's still your responsibility. >Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's >not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it became rootcanal? finances, lack of time.. but it's still your >responsibility. That implies that root canals can always be avoided. Does that truly mean that if I go to the dentist for check ups every six months I can avoid having to have one? Ann Jeez Ann, you get up early ......... 6:00am around here ...... Joel Answer is generally yes, but not always yes. >>Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's >>not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Ann >Jeez Ann, you get up early ......... > >6:00am around here ...... I don't live "around here". >Answer is generally yes, but not always yes. Thank you. Ann >>>Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's >>>not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>Ann If you don't already have major work done on lots of teeth, do not have a decay problem, don't clench, or have accidental trauma to your teeth, then yes, regular checkups should detect virtually any problem before it is severe enough to lead to a root canal. If you have a couple of crowns, 4-6 big fillings, sip on Mt. Dew all day, and clench your teeth at night, all bets are off. Dartos > Joel > > Answer is generally yes, but not always yes. Does that truly >>mean that if I go to the dentist for check ups every six months I can >>avoid having to have one? >> >>Ann >If you don't already have major work done on lots of teeth, do >not have a decay problem, don't clench, or have accidental trauma to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >If you have a couple of crowns, 4-6 big fillings, sip on Mt. Dew >all day, and clench your teeth at night, all bets are off. Thanks, I don't have any crowns. Ihave a few fillings.. how big I don't really know. I have heard of Mountain Dew and am now off to search the web to find out what it is. Ann >Dartos > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> >>>Ann >If you don't already have major work done on lots of teeth, do >not have a decay problem, don't clench, or have accidental trauma to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >If you have a couple of crowns, 4-6 big fillings, sip on Mt. Dew >all day, and clench your teeth at night, all bets are off. I guess 2 out of 3 means all bets are off. I don't drink Mt. Dew or any other cola now, but I did when I was a kid. Also born with genetically soft teeth. Yes, you are right. Once the damage is done, even if it is repaired, the teeth will never be the same. Nothing lasts forever, so fillings will need to be replaced. Usually each new filling is larger than the last one. At some point the teeth usually need crowns to continue to stay in one piece. The more the teeth are traumatized, the more likely root canals enter the picture. Today's dentists are usually trying to limit the initial damage done to the teeth. Sealants, preventive resin restorations, air abrasion, lasers, smaller burs, stopping decay before a signficant amount of tooth structure is damaged, and NTI usage all help. We *hope* these cases will have fewer cracked teeth and smaller restorations when patients hit middle age and need fewer crowns and root canals (another 20-30 years will let us know<G>). That is not to be critical of the dentistry done from the 50's through the 70's. The technology simply didn't exist to diagnose and treat teeth better. Huge strides were made in helping patients keep more teeth for their entire life. One report that I read some years ago stated that the average 65 year-old in the US in 1960 had 6 teeth. That number had increased to 22 (or so) by 1990. Dartos >>If you don't already have major work done on lots of teeth, do >>not have a decay problem, don't clench, or have accidental trauma to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > any other cola now, but I did when I was a kid. Also born with > genetically soft teeth. Good points D'Artangnan. >Yes, you are right. Once the damage is done, even if it is repaired, >the teeth will never be the same. Nothing lasts forever, so fillings [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Dartos -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Also born with >genetically soft teeth. That must be technical talk. What a maroon ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I generally don't go to great lengths to dispell this misconception. Grandpa had dentures. Dad has dentures. My teeth are half gone. CZ logic would indicate genetics. Hard to win an argument when the conclusion is so 'evident'. Most people don't want to accept the fact that they are more responsible for the condition of their teeth than their ancestry. Dartos >>Also born with >>genetically soft teeth. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > W_B >I generally don't go to great lengths to dispell this >misconception. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Dartos So what about high fevers as a child? That has no effect, either? > So what about high fevers as a child? That has no effect, either? There are occasional situations where tooth development is altered or impaired. Serious childhood illnesses and their treatment can be to blame for some problems. More often than not I get someone in the chair with lots of decay who doesn't brush well, never flosses, eats Krispy Kremes for breakfast every day, sips on soda the rest of the time and visits the dentist every 2-5 years. That doesn't make them a bad person. It just means that it probably is their behavior that has caused their dental problems. Most of them have no idea how destructive their habits really are until they are explained in detail. Even then, many never change. You may or may not fit this example. Like I said, you still can be a great guy even if you do. Dartos >> So what about high fevers as a child? That has no effect, either? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Dartos Just for background, for the helluvit, yes I had extremely - near death - high fevers and illnesses as a child. I did not take care of my teeth, ate lots of sugar and colas until I was 20 years old. I had something like 9 teeth all extracted at the same time at the age of 14, I do not know why, nor do my parents recall the reason, or so they say. Most likely extreme neglect as my parents did not stress dental care at all after I resisted as a young child. No, they did not get me bridge work or do anything about the missing teeth. Because of that I accepted it as normal and learned to live with it, and for most of my life felt I could not afford to get bridge work, did not want a partial plate, etc; I had seen many complications from bad dental work, in others, did not like the idea of something foreign in my mouth and was accustomed to eating with the missing teeth. And did not want to spend a lot of money and endure a lot of pain. I know now that I made bad decisions about this, but such is life. Hindsight is 20/20. However, since the age of 20, I began brushing after every meal (3-4 times every day for 2 minutes) to save the teeth I have. I did not go to the dentist regularly, but actually had few cavities until I was in my 40's, then I had to have several fillings. But not bad considering I only went for a cleaning and check up every 2-5 years. Now my remaining teeth are stressed out due to too much work load on them and even though I now floss and go to the dentist regulary it is too late. So I fall into both categories: neglect and - as I've been told by dentists - unusually soft teeth due to high fevers as a child. By they way, if genetics is not a major issue, why is it that I meet a lot of people who say they do not brush after every meal and yet have very good teeth? One guy I know - just as an example, I've met many people like this - is in his 60's, never went to the dentist (maybe once every 10 years), does not brush after every meal - maybe once a day - and yet has all his teeth and no major problems? Seems to me genetics must be a major factor in many people's dental health. Or are they using some kind of magic tooth paste? (If so, what is it so I can use it, too, and maybe market it and make a million $$$!) I didn't realize that there was a problem with that tooth. The one next to it broke and I went in to have that fixed and that's when he told me that I needed a root canal done on the other. It never gave me any problems until after he did the root canal. >Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's >not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it became rootcanal? finances, lack of time.. but it's still your >responsibility. >Sherry... there is no such thing as guarentees in health field. It's >not uncommon for general dentist OR specialist to miss a canal. We are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it became rootcanal? finances, lack of time.. but it's still your >responsibility. My wife went in, had NO problems at all, never any pain, and they told her she had to have a root canal. Then I went in, at the first sign of a pain - very mild - and was told I needed a root canal. I did not think root canals were caused by neglect... Now, the last root canal I needed was done, and it being done poorly caused me to lose my tooth, according to two dentists who looked at the xrays. I cannot explain to you what it was he did wrong, but both dentists (one an endodontist) looked at the xrays and said "Bad root canal, now it can't be saved". I just wonder why it took so long for the dentist to finally refer me to the endodonist. I had been complaining for months and all he ever said was, "I think we need to put a crown on it." I told him that I didn't want to have the crown put on with all the pain that I was experiencing, but for some reason he thought that would cure me. I, however, was not falling for that because I knew there was something wrong and I knew that having a crown put on would not fix it; I am not a total idiot. I also told him that I didn't want to spend $1,400 on a tooth that may have to be pulled because of the problems. >> The endodonist found, by x-ray (which the dentist took plenty of, by the way), >> that my dentist had missed a canal and set up an appointment for him, the [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > >George >Even a >specialist cannot offer you a 100% chance of success, like with all [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >root canals and endodontists who do crap.I always dislike that >attitude, that they are somehow superior to "mere mortal" GPs. Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST root canals should be done by an endodontist. Adding to my belief that this is true, my wife and I have both had bad root canals from a general dentist - one caused her to have an apicoectomy, the other caused me to lose my tooth. In both cases the xrays of the root canal were shown to several dentists and several dentists said "yes, it was a bad root canal" ... So I for one will never have a root canal done by a general dentist again. YOU probably do very good root canals; I don't doubt it is possible for a gen. dentist to do them well, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt since you are kind enough to post here. But I will go with the theory that a specialist has more experience and if he's any good at what he does and is recommended by a general dentist, he probably will do more consistently good work than MOST general dentists due to more practice and more knowledge. I can't argue this point because I am not an expert; I can only tell you of my experience and what I have been told by the dentists I've talked with. >Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST >root canals should be done by an endodontist. But, your experience is distorted by managed care. Amatus >>Even a >>specialist cannot offer you a 100% chance of success, like with all [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >argue this point because I am not an expert; I can only tell you of my >experience and what I have been told by the dentists I've talked with. .. Amatus . >>Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST >>root canals should be done by an endodontist. > >But, your experience is distorted by managed care. > > Amatus REPLY Could you describe what you mean by "Mangled Care?" >>>Even a >>>specialist cannot offer you a 100% chance of success, like with all [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > . >>Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST >>root canals should be done by an endodontist. > >But, your experience is distorted by managed care. No, one dentist who did the bad root canal and caused the apicoectomy and caused me to lose my #18 was not an insurance dentist. The dentist we are with now, who seems much better, is a DeltaCare dentist, but he also takes people without insurance. >>>Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST >>>root canals should be done by an endodontist. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >we are with now, who seems much better, is a DeltaCare dentist, but he >also takes people without insurance. Apico on #18 ?; that's a good one. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Not to start an argument, but even my general dentist said that MOST > root canals should be done by an endodontist. > So I for one will never have a root canal done by a general dentist > again. YOU probably do very good root canals; I don't doubt it is > possible for a gen. dentist to do them well, and I will give you the > benefit of the doubt since you are kind enough to post here. Oh no mate, you've got me wrong! I didn't say I do very good root canals. When it's an incisor/canine/premolar I can usually do an excellent root canal. When it comes down to molars however... Well, let's just say that I offer referral to a specialist to all my molar endo cases straightaway and I emphasise to the patient if he wants me to try it I cannot offer the same success rate because I really believe that molar endo is one of the most difficult dental procedures! And to be done superbly it requires experience and equipment I simply don't have! What I said is that I know general dentists who have done so many root canals and have taken so many courses on the subject and invested in equipment that their work is indistinguishable from that of a "specialist". I also know of some "specialists" whose work is at the same level or lower than mine. I guess you can find exceptions in both groups, but as a general rule you are right: specialists are much better than GPs. That's why they are called specialists of course. George >Usually when performing root canal treatment, it is not always >necessary to remove all the "decay" that has affected the coronal part [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >structure, you may end up with little to put those rubber dam "clamps" >on trhe tooth. I will agree with all that gorge said, except about the decay. I never begin any RCT until I get all the decay out. Amatus >> The endodonist found, by x-ray (which the dentist took plenty of, by the way), >> that my dentist had missed a canal and set up an appointment for him, the [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > >George .. Amatus . Won't bacteria contine to live in the decay? That's what I figured happened since that was where the infection was. >>Usually when performing root canal treatment, it is not always >>necessary to remove all the "decay" that has affected the coronal part [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > . >Won't bacteria contine to live in the decay? That's what I figured happened >since that was where the infection was. Yup, bacteria love decay ........ DK is the new spelling .......... Joely >>>Usually when performing root canal treatment, it is not always >>>necessary to remove all the "decay" that has affected the coronal part [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> . >Won't bacteria contine to live in the decay? That's what I figured happened >since that was where the infection was. That is why you must remove all decay prior to begining RCT, Amatus >Won't bacteria contine to live in the decay? That's what I figured happened >since that was where the infection was. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> . .. Amatus . Hi again Sherry, Yes bacteria live in the decay. But your problem were the bacteria living in the canal your dentist missed. Remember that the decay is left in the part of the tooth visible in the mouth (the coronal portion) , whereas your problem is deep down the root canals. Once the root canal procedure is successfully completed, the canals will be filled by a material that should be able to resist recontamination for weeks, if not months, giving your dentist enough time to clean the rest of the decay and do a crown for the tooth. Actually, the greatest danger of recontamination is not from any bacteria living in the decay, but from the billions of bacteria floating in your saliva! Guys, you may remove all decay because you're foremost restorative practitioners and you are doing the procedure with a view to a build-up and a crown, if possible in the same session. But this is not a goal on its own, especially if you are an endodontist that will not take part in the restorative process. And sometimes, it is easier to leave carious tooth structure if it can help you apply the dam, especially in very compromised cases. >And sometimes, it is easier to leave >carious tooth structure if it can help you apply the dam, especially in >very compromised cases. Remove all decay and do a 'endodontic build-up' with fuji 9. Works like a charm. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Guys, you may remove all decay because you're foremost restorative >practitioners and you are doing the procedure with a view to a build-up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >carious tooth structure if it can help you apply the dam, especially in >very compromised cases. If you don't remove the decay first, how do you know if the tooth is restorable ? Besides, removing old fillings and decay makes the RCT much easier. Amatus >Hi again Sherry, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >carious tooth structure if it can help you apply the dam, especially in >very compromised cases. .. Amatus . Actually, I asked the endo if the decay came from the missed canal and he told me that it hadn't. Part of the root that my dentist missed had calcified. So, it appears that he just didn't clean out decay that was in there. My understanding of a root canal was that the dentist would clean up the tooth and fill the canals. The dentist obviously didn't do a very good job of cleaning up the tooth. It's a pretty big tooth so I don't think he didn't clean the decay out to leave enough tooth to hold a rubber dam. The endo took the decay out and is in the process of redoing the root canal. He even took the tooth down so that there was no chance of my biting down on it and causing more problems. >Hi again Sherry, > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >carious tooth structure if it can help you apply the dam, especially in >very compromised cases. >>Usually when performing root canal treatment, it is not always >>necessary to remove all the "decay" that has affected the coronal part [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Amatus Same here. Endodontic Build-up if necessary. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > I know GPs who do marvellous >root canals and endodontists who do crap.I always dislike that >attitude, that they are somehow superior to "mere mortal" GPs. I did a RCT on Amatus. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Well, he's still alive isn't he? Except if you have hijacked his account. :) George >I had to get out of the last thread as it was causing nothing but arguments. >I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association with fish so I switched my affiliation a while back. Joel >>I had to get out of the last thread as it was causing nothing but arguments. >>I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. > >Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to >my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association >with fish so I switched my affiliation a while back. I was born Libran but didn't like it, so popped back in for another coupla weeks and came back Scorpion. Much happier this way. >>>I had to get out of the last thread as it was causing nothing but arguments. >>>I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I was born Libran but didn't like it, so popped back in for another >coupla weeks and came back Scorpion. Much happier this way. Okay Scorpion, okay. Then you are forgiven for talkin' evil about the Joelster. Haha >>I had to get out of the last thread as it was causing nothing but arguments. >>I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Joel >Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to >my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association >with fish so I switched my affiliation a while back. Luca Braca ? Amatus >Haha > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Joel .. Amatus . >>Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to >>my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Amatus I was especially upset when the Codfather insisted that they tie the helium balloons onto the fish so that they would rise up out of the water and be forced to sleep with the humans ....... Joel >>Haha >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > . >>>Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to >>>my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Joel Splorf ! New keyboard. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I'm impressed also. Carabelli's posting lectures must have done Joel some good. Dartos >>I was especially upset when the Codfather insisted that they tie the >>helium balloons onto the fish so that they would rise up out of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Me too. I have blocked everyone and now the newsgroup is much more to >>my liking. I used to be Pisces, but I did not like the association [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Amatus Didn't make the cut for the Olympics ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >I am a Pisces and not into all the drama. I like the peace and quiet. Go fish. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com |
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