Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005
Confused about NTI, and need serious professional opinion.
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Tim Dean - 20 Sep 2005 17:24 GMT I've been suffering from daily headaches since mid-June of this year. They started the day after I received a routine checkup/cleaning from my usual dentist. The headaches are usually centered around the temples, are always one-sided (90% of them are left-sided), and sometimes are accompanied with jaw pain and earaches. When I open my jaw, the opening is definately limited, but I never hear the jaw pop. My neck feels stiff and has a limited range of motion. I'm also having severe bouts of insomnia, anxiety, and depression that are accompanying these headaches since it's gone on for so long now.
I've been to various doctors/specialists this summer (had normal CAT scan and MRI), trying to get these headaches figured out and resolved. They seem to be muscular in nature.
I consulted an orthodontist in mid-August (suspecting these problems may be TMJ related), who took a panoramic X-Ray of my jaw, and he said that he saw a lot of wear on the jaw joint that would indicate a TMJ problem. However, he wasn't in the business of treating any TMJ patients himself, so I went out looking for a dentist or orthodontist who did.
I found a dentist that was recommended to me by a family member, and treats TMJ patients. He performed an examination on me (but didn't take any X-Rays), and determined that my problem was more muscular in nature (supposedly from jaw-clenching), and he fit me with an NTI-TSS device to wear at night on September 6th. After the initial fitting and wearing the device for the first night, I found that I could easily dislodge the device with my tongue, so I returned to him on the 8th and he refit the device more snugly on my top teeth.
I've been wearing the device every night since the 8th (12 nights total). I haven't really experienced what I would call a significant reduction in my headaches yet. I have, however, been having some pains in my left jaw on some mornings after wearing the device. This morning, the dentist's receptionist phoned me and asked how I was doing with the device. I told them that I hadn't experienced a reduction in my headaches yet, and have been having jaw pain. She reported that to the dentist, and I received another call a short while later and was told that I needed to go see a more "traditional" TMJ specialist for an examination since I was still having so many problems with headaches after 12 nights.
This had left me really confused, and I am trying to determine what to do next. I really need to get to the bottom of these headaches, as they are having a huge impact on my quality of life in almost every aspect (family, work, leisure, etc.)
I have a few specific questions:
1) Should I be experiencing relief from the daily headaches by now with the NTI, or do I need to give it more time? If so, how much more? 2) Can a dentist/orthodontist actually diagnose a TMJ problem just by looking at panoramic X-Rays? I've heard statements that both support and negate this as a method for diagnosis.
Can anyone give me some good solid advice on where to go from here?
Tim Dean - 20 Sep 2005 17:33 GMT BTW: I should also mention that I am not clenching during the day since being fitting with the NTI (consciously keeping my teeth apart), and it feels like my lower jaw has shifted forward since I've been wearing the device. It's now painful to put my teeth in their "usual" position (so I don't do it anymore).
Steven Fawks - 20 Sep 2005 21:05 GMT You just got dumped.
It's easy to get spoiled making NTI's for routine procedures that never come back with difficulties. A case like yours shows up and it takes a lot more time and more experimentation to find the right design for the NTI.
When the first NTI doesn't give relief in short order, there are several items to check.
1. Regardless of your position on daytime activity, I would make a daytime device.
2. I would double check for posterior interferences in excursive movements.
3. Possibly reduce or increase vertical dimension of the NTI.
4. Check for cuspid contact with the NTI.
5. Check anterior and posterior movements to make sure you can't 'get around' the DE.
6. Make sure the DE contacts both lower centrals.
7. If you have a significant overbite, I might ramp the DE at an incline to lessen vertical opening.
8. If there are no contraindications, analgesics and even a muscle relaxant might be considered.
Mostly you're shootin' fish in a barrel but sometimes you're lookin' for that needle in a haystack,
Fawks
> BTW: I should also mention that I am not clenching during the day since > being fitting with the NTI (consciously keeping my teeth apart), and it > feels like my lower jaw has shifted forward since I've been wearing the > device. It's now painful to put my teeth in their "usual" position (so I > don't do it anymore). W_B - 20 Sep 2005 21:21 GMT >You just got dumped. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Fawks Good stuff there doc. The only thing that I would add is to give it more time after, of course, exporing the avenues that you adeptly laid out.
>> BTW: I should also mention that I am not clenching during the day since >> being fitting with the NTI (consciously keeping my teeth apart), and it >> feels like my lower jaw has shifted forward since I've been wearing the >> device. It's now painful to put my teeth in their "usual" position (so I >> don't do it anymore). --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 20 Sep 2005 22:38 GMT >When the first NTI doesn't give relief in short order, there >are several items to check. The failures I have seen with NTI devices were from offices which made the NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. Many offices send impressions to the lab and deliver them as they come back regardless of the angle of the DE, its height, length or width. Often the failed case will have a DE which is greatly angled and forces the mandible backward and it much too wide.
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> >>You just got dumped. [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Fawks - 21 Sep 2005 04:12 GMT He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened.
Fawks
> >When the first NTI doesn't give relief in short order, there > >are several items to check.
> The failures I have seen with NTI devices were from offices which made the > NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. > Amatus Amatus Cremona - 21 Sep 2005 15:17 GMT > He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened. I just met with one of my classmates last week. He mentioned 20 years of TM problems. He mentioned getting the Pankey treatment, and having his posterior teeth ruined, with no relief. He mentioned the 4 different full coverage splints he has tried. He described the NTI he tried (which did not work). I looked at his front teeth more closely, and asked him if the DE was modified or just put in "right out of the box". Turns out the NTI was made at a lab and delivered "as is". His maxillary incisors are very "upright", which suggests that the DE would have been angled severely to the posterior. He then went on to say how his lower front teeth hurt and his masseters were sore.
Like any tool in the tool-box, if you don't know how to use the tool, it should be left in the tool-box. If you take out a torque wrench to tighten the bolts on the intake manifold of your 1967 Mustang, but have never researched how to use it, you will break off bolts (or studs) and blame the wrench, instead of blaming the mechanic.
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> > He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. >> Amatus W_B - 21 Sep 2005 17:20 GMT >Like any tool in the tool-box, if you don't know how to use the tool, it >should be left in the tool-box. If you take out a torque wrench to tighten >the bolts on the intake manifold of your 1967 Mustang, but have never >researched how to use it, you will break off bolts (or studs) and blame the >wrench, instead of blaming the mechanic. I say blame the old car. <g> --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Steven Fawks - 21 Sep 2005 17:49 GMT If you take out a torque wrench to tighten
> the bolts on the intake manifold of your 1967 Mustang, but have never > researched how to use it, you will break off bolts (or studs) and blame the > wrench, instead of blaming the mechanic. I'm never getting near my '67 with a torque wrench! I'm just a 'bloody knuckled' mechanic. Serious stuff goes to the shop.
Do I know you?
Fawks
Amatus Cremona - 21 Sep 2005 18:01 GMT > Do I know you? We spoke on the phone once
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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> > If you take out a torque wrench to tighten [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Fawks Steven Fawks - 22 Sep 2005 16:13 GMT Thanks. Boy am I slow on the uptake.
;-) Fawks
>>Do I know you? > > We spoke on the phone once > > Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Stovepipe - 22 Sep 2005 03:59 GMT > He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. > > Amatus Being a relative Newbie to NTI's I've appreciated the review in this case and this thread.
However:
Does no one think that a true articular x-ray is in order here? Panograms are notorius for distortion in the condylar areas, and a true articular shot will show it there's been any internal capsule derangement. I find it also telling that the OP's symptoms started with a cleaning and an exam. I wonder if his joint was forced during that appointment...
Cheers SP
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Tim Dean - 22 Sep 2005 12:58 GMT This is a link to the pics/email that I sent to Steve, and his response. He asked me to post this to the group and see if you agree with his assessment:
http://members.cox.net/tpdean/NTI.htm
Thanks, Tim
> He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. >> Amatus Amatus Cremona - 22 Sep 2005 14:28 GMT >No offense to your dentist, but it looks like he just takes them out
>of the box, fills them with SNAP, and expects them to work. I
>very* rarely place one without major modifications from the 'stock'
>matrix. Out of the hundreds of NTI's I have made over the years, I have only delivered 2-3 without significantly altering the DE. The pictures obviously show an NTI which is not adjusted to function properly. It may be a good start, but will not work at as shown.
For Dr. Stovepipe, most of these cases will have some level of disk problem related to the spasm of the lateral pterygoid muscle. Let the muscle relax first, then think about radiographs.
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This is a link to the pics/email that I sent to Steve, and his response. He asked me to post this to the group and see if you agree with his assessment:
http://members.cox.net/tpdean/NTI.htm
Thanks, Tim
"Fawks" <tuthjockey@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1127272349.833071.98450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > He just sent me some pic's. That looks exactly what happened. > > Fawks > >> > >> >When the first NTI doesn't give relief in short order, there >> >are several items to check. > >> The failures I have seen with NTI devices were from offices which made the >> NTI and delivered it without adjusting the DE to fit the case. >> Amatus >
Tim Dean - 22 Sep 2005 17:00 GMT Amatus,
What is obviously wrong with the fit in your opinion? I'm just looking for some specifics to have an idea.
Thanks, Tim
Amatus Cremona - 22 Sep 2005 18:20 GMT > What is obviously wrong with the fit in your opinion? I'm just looking > for some specifics to have an idea. I would agree with SWF. The DE is too long, too tall, too wide and angled poorly. I take one look at the virgin DE and at the backwards angle of it, and know right away that the dentist who placed it never read two words on how to place it. Any patient with "upright" incisors will end up with the DE ramped back like this. The matrix is set up for people with more ideal incisor angulations.
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> Amatus, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks, > Tim Stovepipe - 23 Sep 2005 04:41 GMT > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >obviously show an NTI which is not adjusted to function properly. It >may be a good start, but will not work at as shown. Any chance that someone could direct me to these photos or maybe even 'TinyPic.com' the photos?
> For Dr. Stovepipe, most of these cases will have some level of disk problem related to the spasm of the lateral pterygoid muscle. Let the muscle relax first, then think about radiographs.
Good. Thanks. I should have known this already.
Merci SP
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Tim Dean - 23 Sep 2005 12:38 GMT Stovepipe, the pics are at this link: http://members.cox.net/tpdean/NTI.htm
> Any chance that someone could direct me to these photos or maybe even > 'TinyPic.com' the photos? Stovepipe - 23 Sep 2005 22:55 GMT > Stovepipe, the pics are at this link: http://members.cox.net/tpdean/NTI.htm > > > Any chance that someone could direct me to these photos or maybe even > > 'TinyPic.com' the photos? Thanks Tim! That is fine.
SP
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carabelli - 21 Sep 2005 03:01 GMT > You just got dumped. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> device. It's now painful to put my teeth in their "usual" position (so I >> don't do it anymore). I have had a few with long standing problems that took three months for relief. And only then after reviewing their history did they realise it. Kinda of like when they wonder why I put braces on and then we bring out the original study models.
OTOH, it is not the end all beat all TX. If pain persists it is wise to eliminate eitiology that the NTI cannot address.
carabelli
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