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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005Why not put denture teeth on the ridge?
I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have sent me running from the chair at high speed. He suggested that I get 2nd opinion, so here goes. My stated mission was to get a set of teeth that could be used for eating. I wanted to not only chew, but also wanted to be able to bite. The point I made over and over was that I wanted them to be a good tools, and that cosmetics were not my highest priority. After dumping thousands of dollars into the pocket of this dentist, he gives me a try-in that wasn't even close (in my opinion). There was a large space deliberately placed between the upper and lower teeth in the front. It was impossible for me to get them into a position that would allow me to bite anything that was thin. So I protested. The dentist response was that the front teeth in dentures are only for show, and that you chew with your back teeth. I expressed that I wasn't talking about chewing, I was talking about biting. Like when you are eating a hamburger and you need to cut off a piece of bacon or lettuce. Another example was cutting off a piece of spaghetti that was too long. He then explained that denture wearers don't bite or tear their food they only chew with their back teeth. Now, that doesn't sound like a very good tool for eating to me. Then I asked why the lowers were so far in front of the ridge, and he said that they had to be there to mate up with the top teeth. So then I asked why the top teeth were so far in front of the ridge. All he could say was that the top teeth have to be placed 7mm in front of the ridge. If they touch, then you couldn't chew with your back teeth. This made no sense to me because God had placed my teeth on the ridge, so why shouldn't denture teeth be placed in the more natural position of the ridge instead of cantilevered 7mm out in front? "It's the rule". They need to be out there to support the lip. I guess this is something that God totally overlooked when designing the mouth, but dentist need to correct his error. He then reminded me that front teeth are just for show. I reminded him that I wanted tools for eating, not just pretty teeth. He couldn't budge, it was the rule. I could see that this might be a possibility for a person with a rigid jaw, but mine is highly mobile. When my jaw moves into the back position it dislocates and my mouth can only open by a very small amount. To get my mouth open enough to bite something, I have to move my jaw forward by quite a lot, or it will lock up on me. I have to talk with my jaw fairly far forward, or my jaw pops in and out making speech very difficult for me. Apparently dentist are taught to take the "bite" with the jaw in the back position, but this creates a problem for me because it places my lower teeth way out in front of my upper teeth when I am talking or biting. This tends to make biting and talking difficult, and it looks dumb. He reluctantly agreed to position the teeth so that the front teeth could touch by moving my jaw forward and sent them back to the technician to be adjusted. When they came back the lower teeth had been moved even further out than they were before. I'm guessing that they are close to 20mm in front of the lower ridge. He felt that the lowers had to be out in front because the bar that the teeth will snap to is on the ridge and you need to leave some space between the bar and the teeth. The bar is actually near the back edge of the ridge, so I would think the teeth could be pretty close to the ridge without causing a problem. Then he tells me that they had to be put so far forward to touch the uppers. Remember, It's the rule that the top teeth have to be placed a full 7mm in front of their natural position because they have to push the lip out. It would seem to me that the ridge acts like a fulcrum when the teeth are cantilevered way out in front of the ridge, causing the back of the plate to pop open when you apply pressure. If the teeth were on, or even slightly behind the ridge, the pressure would be distributed across the plate and they would have no way to pop out of place. This seems like very basic physics to me. Another problem with moving the teeth so far out is that it eliminates the possibility of getting your tongue between the teeth and the lip to clean out bits of food that get caught there. If you can't use your tongue for that task you have to reach in with your finger to do it. This is not a pretty sight at the dinner table. He claimed that this was the best he could offer, so we had decided to proceed and see how well they worked before I left the office on Friday afternoon. Friday night I couldn't get any sleep the whole night, just thinking about it, so I put in a call to tell him to stop the process before committing the teeth to plastic. He called back first thing Monday morning to tell me that the dentures were already in the oven, and there was no turning back now. I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very best dentistry has to offer, or that someone here thinks he understands my issue and is willing to give it a try. I have spent many thousands of dollars trying to get a decent set of teeth that I can eat with without being embarrassed. What say you. David > I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself > for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have > sent me running from the chair at high speed. He suggested that I get > 2nd opinion, so here goes. How were you able to "bite" on your previous two sets of dentures? Traditionally, denture wearers cannot bite on the front teeth without the dentures popping loose. If your skeletal bone is way off (like you describe), then you may need to have flat back teeth and have them adjusted so that you can position your jaw anywhere you find it comfortable to do so.  Signature/ Amatus / > I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself > for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > David >> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >> for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >describe), then you may need to have flat back teeth and have them adjusted >so that you can position your jaw anywhere you find it comfortable to do so. Probably 33 degree teeth, anteriors end-to-end, set up on a semi-adjustable articulator, face bow, and all that... -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >>> for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have >>> sent me running from the chair at high speed. He suggested that I get >>> 2nd opinion, so here goes. >> >>How were you able to "bite" on your previous two sets of dentures? Nope, he rarely wore both sets at once ...... only at Halloween. >>Traditionally, denture wearers cannot bite on the front teeth without the >>dentures popping loose. If your skeletal bone is way off (like you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Probably 33 degree teeth, anteriors end-to-end, set up on a semi-adjustable >articulator, face bow, and all that... >>>> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >>>> for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Nope, he rarely wore both sets at once ...... only at Halloween. I only did that one year. I kept biting my tongue Wait a minute. This isn't April 1st. Never mind. >>> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >>> for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > semi-adjustable > articulator, face bow, and all that... I accidentally sent the response without thanking Amatus. Thanks Unfortunately I lack the vocabulary to do anything with your response. Thank you for the making the effort anyway David >>>> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >>>> for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >David That response was for Amatus. 33 degree teeth have inclines of, you guessed it, 33 degrees. end-to-end is a set up where the incisors do not overlap and are set edge to edge, lower to upper. an articulator is a device that simulates movement of the mandible lower jaw. this makes it easier to set the denture teeth into the desired postions. a face bow is a device that allows mounting of the upper cast in approximately the same position as the patient's mouth with relation to the TMJ. Techinical talk. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>I accidentally sent the response without thanking Amatus. Thanks >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Techinical talk. Thank you for the clarification. The articulator he is using can be unlocked, but it isn't a true simulator for a jaw with my TMJ David >> Techinical talk. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >David Perhaps you are one of the rare patients that needs the setup done on at least a semi-adjustable articulator. Hanau, Whip-Mix, the name of the third eludes me right now. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE "W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote:| | Perhaps you are one of the rare patients that needs | the setup done on at least a semi-adjustable articulator. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | -- | W_B Condulator, Denar, Kavo Protar, Dentatus, TMJ, Gysi, or Panadent? SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply > I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself > for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > David Please understand that what I am about to say is a general statement. I have no way of knowing if the tooth setup on your denture is optimal or not. The study of the way teeth come together in function is called occlusion. What the dentist told you is pretty much on the money. Denture teeth cannot be made to function like natural teeth. Generally speaking, if you bite with your front teeth, some of the back teeth will be in contact as well. If the back teeth are not in contact, the upper denture will flip down in the back, and the lower denture may also flip up in back. You are correct that putting the teeth over the ridge will give a more stable result in a given jaw. However, and especially for patients who have been without teeth for a long time this is frequently impossible. When the teeth are lost, the alveolar bone of the jaws in which they were set gradually is lost as well. The bone loss is not symmetrical; in the upper jaw bone is lost faster on the outside facing surface of the boney ridge, and the inside facing surface of the lower jaw boney ridge. The effect of this is that when you look at the upper and lower jaws of a patient who has been without teeth for a long time, the lower jaw is almost always wider than the upper jaw. This is in direct contrast to the position of natural teeth, where the upper dental arch is wider than the lower. This puts the dentist in an untenable position; he/she must either place the teeth in a very unnatural-looking position, or he/she must place the chewing surfaces of the denture teeth in a position not directly over the boney ridge--at least in part of the arch. In my experience this is most likely to be done in the upper front teeth, where setting the teeth further out under the lip can compensate for the lost bone/tooth/gum. If we then try to duplicate the normal contact of natural teeth as well as the appearance, we are doomed to failure. I don't know if you are able to reach a satisfactory compromise with this dentist which will make you happy. Communication is vital, as well as an understanding of the limitations of traditional denture construction. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > Please understand that what I am about to say is a general statement. I > have no way of knowing if the tooth setup on your denture is optimal or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > well. If the back teeth are not in contact, the upper denture will flip > down in the back, and the lower denture may also flip up in back. Been there, Done that. I blame this feature of properly made dentures on the fact that the front teeth are out in front of the fulcrum. From my experance, this effect has reduced on dentures where the teeth are placed closer to the fulcrum. It would seem that there would be almost no flipping if the teeth were set slight behind the ridge, but speaking might become difficult. > You are correct that putting the teeth over the ridge will give a more > stable result in a given jaw. However, and especially for patients who [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > position of natural teeth, where the upper dental arch is wider than the > lower. That is likely my case. I would think applying a little physics would allow for the teeth to function better. I'm talking tools for eating, not cosmetics. > This puts the dentist in an untenable position; he/she must either place > the teeth in a very unnatural-looking position, or he/she must place the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Steve Thanks Steve My natural teeth were far from perfect, and I'm not concerned that my dentures look absolutely perfect. They should look something like teeth though. David >>Please understand that what I am about to say is a general statement. I >>have no way of knowing if the tooth setup on your denture is optimal or [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > David This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by patients who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, it would be very useful to know if a patient is willing to sacrifice esthetics for improved function. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 > This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by patients > who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, it would be very > useful to know if a patient is willing to sacrifice esthetics for improved > function. I would like to add that we sometimes get patients who say they only want esthetics, function, free of pain, or whatever, and as soon as we deliver the service, they tell us they wanted the other stuff too. Not saying that this poster would do that, but just reminding everyone that patients do not always know what they want precisely until treatment is done and they can try it. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>Please understand that what I am about to say is a general statement. I [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Steve >> This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by patients >> who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, it would be [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > do not always know what they want precisely until treatment is done and > they can try it. Absolutely. Of course we want it all :-) It does get a little out of hand when esthetics seems to be the main concern when biting was a major concern for the patient, and the dentist seems to use bite and chew as if they are synonyms. David > It does get a little out of hand when esthetics seems to be the main > concern > when biting was a major concern for the patient, and the dentist seems > to use bite and chew as if they are synonyms. Dentists get into the habit of saying "bite" or "chew", since the average person looks at us like we have a hamster-head growing out of our forehead when we say "occlusion". Signature/ Amatus / > >>> This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by patients [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > David >> It does get a little out of hand when esthetics seems to be the main >> concern [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > person looks at us like we have a hamster-head growing out of our forehead > when we say "occlusion". So which is occlusion? Bite or chew? To me Bite is what I do with my front teeth to cut of a chunk of food so I can fit it into mouth. Chew happens on the back teeth when I grind up the food to make it small enough to fit down my throat. David >>This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by patients >>who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, it would be very [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > always know what they want precisely until treatment is done and they can > try it. Good point. Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> My natural teeth were far from perfect, and I'm not concerned that my >> dentures [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve I tried to let him know right from the beginning. David > This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by > patients who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, I meant to say "lip support". SB it > would be very useful to know if a patient is willing to sacrifice > esthetics for improved function. > > Steve SignatureMark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 >> This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by >> patients who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, > > I meant to say "lip support". > >SB "cuspid plumpers" > it >> would be very useful to know if a patient is willing to sacrifice >> esthetics for improved function. >> >> Steve -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>> This is good for the dentist to know. Having been harangued by >>> patients who object strongly if there is inadequate tooth support, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >"cuspid plumpers" What is a cuspid plumber? Is this anything like a roto-ROOTer? Joel >> it >>> would be very useful to know if a patient is willing to sacrifice >>> esthetics for improved function. >>> >>> Steve >>"cuspid plumpers" > > What is a cuspid plumber? Is this anything like a roto-ROOTer? > > Joel That sounds pretty scary to us patients David >I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very >best [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >David Incisal edge of upper teeth 7mm in front of the incisive papilla. There are a number of ways that can be tried to achive your desired goal of function over form. Haven't seen you in person so anything would be a guess. Since the dentures have already been processed, try them out. If unsatisfactory after a few weeks, discuss remaking them with your dentist. Best wishes, -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very >>best [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Best wishes, That is the current plan. I'm hoping that I'm wrong about all of this and that they will function as good tools. I'm expecting that they will be a better fit than my current pair, but that biting will be awkward and painful in that area between the ridge and the lower lip. Thanks David >> Haven't seen you in person so anything would be a guess. >> Since the dentures have already been processed, try them out. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Thanks >David I say drop the expectations and see what really happens. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> Haven't seen you in person so anything would be a guess. >>> Since the dentures have already been processed, try them out. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I say drop the expectations and see what really happens. Expectations may have been the wrong term. Perhaps fear would be more accurate. David >> I say drop the expectations and see what really happens. >> >Expectations may have been the wrong term. >Perhaps fear would be more accurate. > >David What is there to fear? Either they work for you, or they don't. Be sure to be up front about your concerns about your new prosthetics before accepting them. Talk to the dentist if you can. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE Not sure if you are a troll or someone with a problem that has not received an appropriate explanation. You wrote: | All he could | say was that the top teeth have to be placed 7mm in front of the ridge. and | When they came back the lower teeth had been moved | even further out than they were before. I'm guessing that they are close | to 20mm in front of the lower ridge. That indicates to me that your lower is 13mm distal (behind) the upper. You won't get a "normal" denture with that much discrepancy. You wrote: | This made no sense to me because God had placed my teeth on the | ridge, so why shouldn't denture teeth be placed in the more natural | position of the ridge instead of cantilevered 7mm out in front? Ridges shrink once you lose your teeth. What was the relationship of the teeth God gave you? The ridge is a poor guide for placing the upper front teeth, the incisive papilla is a better choice since it does not move much over time. (they lied in school calling it a "land mark" since this as well as the retromolar pads both change position over time) You wrote: | I could see that this might be a possibility for a person with a rigid jaw, | but mine is highly mobile. When my jaw moves into the back position [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | I have to talk with my jaw fairly far forward, or my jaw pops in and out | making speech very difficult for me. Sounds like a definite joint problem to me. All the more reason to get the bite right. Maybe a little patient education here too. When creating dentures we have to balance of Esthetics, Phonetics and Function. Sometimes we can't do all 3 in a single set. Some people have 2 sets made. One for eating, one for everything else. Some have 3. If you have a "bar" on the lower front, you should typically not have any trouble getting a set made that you can eat with, you might be upset with the looks and speech though. Put some pictures your before and afters on Tinypic.com and give us the links. Then we can comment a little better. Plus the pictures will help prove you are not a troll. What Say I? Can't tell with any certainty what your situation is and how it can be improved without actually seeing you and the dentures. SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply | I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself | for allowing it to go this far. There were several clues that should have [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] | | David > Not sure if you are a troll or someone with a problem that has not > received an > appropriate explanation. I don't think I am a troll. Perhaps your definition is diferent from mine > You wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You > won't get a "normal" denture with that much discrepancy. Perhaps, but it doesn't look that far off on the articulator. > You wrote: > | This made no sense to me because God had placed my teeth on the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > retromolar > pads both change position over time) This is true in my case. I had substantial bone loss, and I can tell that the ridge has shrunk a bit over the years. > You wrote: > | I could see that this might be a possibility for a person with a rigid [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bite > right. Maybe a little patient education here too. Yes, there is a great deal of mobility in my jaw. Not only front to back, but also side to side. > When creating dentures we have to balance of Esthetics, Phonetics and > Function. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that > you can eat with, you might be upset with the looks and speech though. I do have some concern over the speech. I was once a radio announcer, but that is pretty much out of the question now. I'd probably get into less trouble if I didn't talk so much :-) > Put some pictures your before and afters on Tinypic.com and give us the > links. > Then we can comment a little better. Plus the pictures will help prove you > are > not a troll. Sorry, I don't have any suitable before and after pictures handy. I try to stay behind the camera whenever possible. > What Say I? Can't tell with any certainty what your situation is and how > it can > be improved without actually seeing you and the dentures. Understood. Thank you for taking the time. David Dentures are not great eating tools, but it doesn't sound like you are getting much cooperation from the dentist. There are 'textbook instructions' for denture construction, but they are more guidelines than rules. If you were clear on the biting issue from the beginning then he should have simply stated that he could not satisfy you at that time, not towards the end of the process. JMO, Fawks > I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very > best [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > David > Dentures are not great eating tools, but it doesn't sound like you > are getting much cooperation from the dentist. There are 'textbook [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > should have simply stated that he could not satisfy you at that > time, not towards the end of the process. That would have been nice. If he had expressed that he believes the front teeth are only for show, I wouldn't have gotten beyond the first visit. David Denture wearers report they can only chew 15% as effectively as natural tooth wearers. Of course many people can outdistance this but its a general guide. How are your lower ridges? Joel > Denture wearers report they can only chew 15% as effectively > as natural tooth wearers. Of course many people can outdistance > this but its a general guide. How are your lower ridges? > > Joel My ridges are badly damaged, especially on the bottom. I do have a bar on the jaw that should help. Currently I'm still just using the staple that the bar will mount to, and that has helped stabilize the lower denture already. Thank you David > I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself > for allowing it to go this far. > [...] > My stated mission was to get a set of teeth that could be used for > eating. I wanted to not only chew, but also wanted to be able to bite. Possible! But it has a lot more to do with how you use the dentures than how they are made. For instance, almost anyone could play chopsticks on any working piano. With a great more skill it is possible to play a piece of great classical music or some very fine jazz on the same the piano. In a way the same can be said of any well made denture. > The point I made over and over was that I wanted them to be a good > tools, and that cosmetics were not my highest priority. Piano -> skill -> great music Denture -> skill -> biting and chewing *nearly* like real > He then explained that denture wearers don't bite or tear their food > they only chew with their back teeth. Now, that doesn't sound like a > very good tool for eating to me. Sorry, but it is true. However, just as it is true that some can ride a bicycle while seated backwards most of us are not up to the challenge. Biting can be done. but requires skill, initiative, and practice. > This made no sense to me because God had placed my teeth on the > ridge, so why shouldn't denture teeth be placed in the more natural > position of the ridge instead of cantilevered 7mm out in front? Not sure if you noticed, but God also tied your teeth to your head. He did not put them on a piece of plastic *floating* on your gums! Teeth anchored to bone work in an entirely different manner. > I guess this is something that God totally overlooked when designing > the mouth, but dentist need to correct his error. Dr. Vigil Wood said, Dentures are NOT a substitute for natural teeth, they are a substitute for NO TEETH AT ALL!! Think about it. This is a very profound statement. >[...] > Apparently dentist are taught to take the "bite" with the jaw in the back > position, With good reason! When you bite with great force the muscles which close your jaw AUTOMATICALLY move your jaw to that position. THAT IS where we want the teeth to meet most precisely because that produces the greatest stability in that position. > but this creates a problem for me because it places my lower > teeth way out in front of my upper teeth when I am talking or biting. Sounds like your upper front teeth need to be placed even further forward so that the lower and upper front teeth meet when you talk and bite. > This tends to make biting and talking difficult, and it looks dumb. Uh-huh! > It would seem to me that the ridge acts like a fulcrum when the teeth are > cantilevered way out in front of the ridge, causing the back of the plate > to pop open when you apply pressure. Yup! > If the teeth were on, or even slightly > behind the ridge, the pressure would be distributed across the plate and > they would have no way to pop out of place. This seems like very basic > physics to me. And..., you would be right! But, you may find your back teeth getting in the way when you try to bite and your front teeth bumping into each other when you chew. That's why your jaw uses two different positions- one to bite and one to chew! > Another problem with moving the teeth so far out is that it eliminates the > possibility of getting your tongue between the teeth and the lip to clean > out bits of food that get caught there. If you can't use your tongue for that > task you have to reach in with your finger to do it. This is not a pretty sight > at the dinner table. So, don't do it at the table. (Removable) denture wearers should clean their dentures after every meal, even if it's just rinsing them under a stream of water. > I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very > best dentistry has to offer, If I gave you the best piano in the world could you play like Liberace or Dave Bruebeck? Would you play chopsticks or the Moonlight Sonata? Or, would you use it to display this week's flowers? Will you use your denture to to basic things (cosmetics, speech, chew soft food) or will you learn to make the denture do what you want? Some suggestions for use are: 1) Support the back of the upper denture with your tongue to keep it from falling when you bite. 2) Bite on the corner of your mouth. 3) Learn what type foods require a knife and fork and which are "bitable". Eating corn off the cob or biting a Whopper or Subway sandwich may not be possible. while biting a regular hamburger or ripe peach might. > [...] I have spent many thousands of dollars trying to > get a decent set of teeth that I can eat with As I have tried to point out, a well made denture is important, but how you use your dentures is probably a bigger factor when it comes to successful use. Dr. G. prosthodontist without being embarrassed. > What say you. > > David SignaturePlease reply via newsgroup. >> I'm getting my third set of dentures and am totally upset with myself >> for allowing it to go this far. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > piece of great classical music or some very fine jazz on the same the > piano. In a way the same can be said of any well made denture. I'd have trouble even with chopsticks, but I've been eating well for a long time. To look at my waist I could stand to eat a little less :-) My uppers were removed in 1987. I got an upper denture, and a 4 tooth fixed bridge on the lower front. I wasn't too happy with that combination, but I could still eat fairly normally. Of course the teeth in the upper had to sit close to the ridge to match up with the natural lower teeth. All but 3 of the lowers came out about 4 years ago, and those were removed when the staple was put in about a year and a half ago. >> The point I made over and over was that I wanted them to be a good >> tools, and that cosmetics were not my highest priority. > > Piano -> skill -> great music > Denture -> skill -> biting and chewing *nearly* like real Piano -> no skill, no tallent Eating -> too much practice, but good skills even with dentures. >> He then explained that denture wearers don't bite or tear their food >> they only chew with their back teeth. Now, that doesn't sound like a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > bicycle while seated backwards most of us are not up to the challenge. > Biting can be done. but requires skill, initiative, and practice. I guess someone forgot to tell me that the front teeth are useless. I've been biting off stuff the whole time. Not all items have been easy to bite with all dentures. >> This made no sense to me because God had placed my teeth on the >> ridge, so why shouldn't denture teeth be placed in the more natural [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > did not put them on a piece of plastic *floating* on your gums! Teeth > anchored to bone work in an entirely different manner. I may have to go to that extreme with implants, if I have enough bone left. >> I guess this is something that God totally overlooked when designing >> the mouth, but dentist need to correct his error. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dentures are NOT a substitute for natural teeth, > they are a substitute for NO TEETH AT ALL!! But they should be as good a substitute as possible, not just cosmetics, which seems to be the main goal for the dentist I have seen so far. > Think about it. This is a very profound statement. Profound, but not particularly encouraging. >>[...] >> Apparently dentist are taught to take the "bite" with the jaw in the back [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > want the teeth to meet most precisely because that produces the greatest > stability in that position. I agree, but I can only get my mouth open a little when in that position, so I've learned to move my teeth forward before putting anythig in my mouth. The opening is too small to even put in a spoon full of soup without potential spillage. >> but this creates a problem for me because it places my lower >> teeth way out in front of my upper teeth when I am talking or biting. > > Sounds like your upper front teeth need to be placed even further > forward so that the lower and upper front teeth meet when you talk and > bite. What?? >> This tends to make biting and talking difficult, and it looks dumb. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yup! Then why would you do that on purpose? >> If the teeth were on, or even slightly >> behind the ridge, the pressure would be distributed across the plate and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > other when you chew. That's why your jaw uses two different positions- > one to bite and one to chew! Not an issue when my jaw is in the back position, assuming that the point where the teeth meet is set for my jaw to be further forward. >> Another problem with moving the teeth so far out is that it eliminates >> the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > their dentures after every meal, even if it's just rinsing them under a > stream of water. Uh-huh! >> I'm hoping that someone here can convince me that this truly is the very >> best dentistry has to offer, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > denture to to basic things (cosmetics, speech, chew soft food) or will > you learn to make the denture do what you want? Sure, but if you gave Liberace a piano where the keys were so far into the instrument that it was hard to get his fingers to them, then his music would be limited too. It's that order of priority that I take issue with. I'd like to find a dentist that had his priorities exactly the oposite of that. (chew, bite, speech, cosmetics) > Some suggestions for use are: 1) Support the back of the upper denture > with your tongue to keep it from falling when you bite. 2) Bite on the > corner of your mouth. 3) Learn what type foods require a knife and fork > and which are "bitable". Eating corn off the cob or biting a Whopper or > Subway sandwich may not be possible. while biting a regular hamburger > or ripe peach might. I do all of that now, and I can even do the Whopper until I get to the lettuse and onions, and I can do those if the space in front is closeable. >> [...] I have spent many thousands of dollars trying to >> get a decent set of teeth that I can eat with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Dr. G. > prosthodontist Thank you David |
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