Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005
NTI-TSS huh?
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Joel M. Eichen - 14 Sep 2005 14:04 GMT Whot?
See the prices .....??
Is this how you guys order this stuff?
Joel
Migraine Kit Item # 60 (NEW ASSORTMENT - Same Number of Devices) 12 Standard Devices, 6 Reduced Vertical Max Devices, 6 Incisal Guidance Devices, 2 Standard-Wide Devices, 2 Universal/Slidebar Devices, 8 Daytime Devices, 36 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 25 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 25 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $560.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mini Migraine Kit Item # 93 (NEW ASSORTMENT - Same Number of Devices) 6 Standard Devices, 3 Reduced Vertical Max Devices, 3 Incisal Guidance Devices, 1 Standard-Wide Device, 1 Universal/Slidebar Device, 4 Daytime Devices, 18 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 12 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 25 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures, 1 Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $340.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Kit Item # 45 (NEW ASSORTMENT - Same Number of Devices) 12 Standard Devices, 6 Reduced Vertical Max Devices, 6 Incisal Guidance Devices, 2 Standard-Wide Devices, 2 Universal/Slidebar Devices, 28 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 25 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 25 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $525.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mini-Standard Kit Item # 59 10 Standard Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 10 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form. 10% discount on orders of this product in quantities of 5 (5, 10, 15, etc.)
Quantity: Item Price: $220.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Standard-Wide Mini Kit Item # 106 10 Standard-Wide Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 10 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $215.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Daytime Kit Item # 92 10 Daytime Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 10 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $212.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Standard Reduced Vertical - Maxillary Device Kit Item # 90 10 Reduced Vertical Maxillary Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Packet of 10 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form
Quantity: Item Price: $220.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- IG (Incisal Guidance) Refill Kit Item # 95 10 IG (Incisal Guidance) Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, 1 NTI-TSS User's Guide; Packet of 10 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form.
Quantity: Item Price: $220.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trial Kit Item # 46 3 Standard Devices, 1 RV Max Device, 1 IG Device, 1 Standard-Wide Device, 1 Universal/Slidebar Device, 2 Daytime Devices, 9 Glow in the Dark Boxes, Dispensing Bulb, 1 SNAP Powder, 1 SNAP Monomer, 10 Important Patient Information Pamphlets, Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, 5 Migraine and 5 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Order Form (Due to the Liquid Monomer component, not available for overnight shipping or shipping to Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico or Virgin Islands)
Quantity: Item Price: $205.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alternate Trial Kit (Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Overnight) Item # 99 3 Standard Devices, 1 RV Max Device, 1 IG Device, 1 Standard-Wide Device, 1 Universal/Slidebar Device, 2 Daytime Devices, 9 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 4 oz. jar of Thermoplastic Beads, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, 5 Migraine and 5 TMD Waiting Room Brochures, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Order Form (This kit may be shipped overnight for $35 fee)
Quantity: Item Price: $205.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thermalplastic Beads Refill Kit (New Product) Item # 35 4 jars (4 oz each) Thermalplastic Beads and instructions
Quantity: Item Price: $20.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 oz. bottle of Snap Liquid Monomer Item # 38 Not available for delivery to Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico or Virgin Islands
Quantity: Item Price: $16.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 40 gram bottle Snap Resin Powder Item # 15
Quantity: Item Price: $13.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 24 Glow in the dark patient device holders Item # 19
Quantity: Item Price: $10.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thermaplastic Liners Item # 30 Box of 24 1 inch by 1 inch Thermoplastic Squares (AVAILABLE BY PHONE ONLY)
Quantity: Item Price: $24.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 50 Waiting Room Migraine brochures (50ct/bundle) Item # 61 Package of 50 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures
Quantity: Item Price: $8.00
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 50 Spanish Waiting Room Migraine brochures (50ct/bundle) Item # 85 Package of 50 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures in SPANISH
Quantity: Item Price: $8.00
Tim Dixon - 14 Sep 2005 14:12 GMT Thats the way it is. It all comes down to the patent. Of course you can fabricate chairside using materials in your own office, and NTI has even given a tutorial on how to do it. The national average for an NTI to the patient is around 450$, however, under medical insurance for migraine prevention, you may be able to bill insurance for considerable more.
> Whot? > [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] > Quantity: > Item Price: $8.00 Joel M. Eichen - 15 Sep 2005 11:26 GMT Okay then I am against it.
This is why health care is going through the roof and threatens to bankrupt the U.S. Its 16% of G.D.P.
Corporations respond by looking overseas for manufacturing.
We all lose in the long run.
I bet you had no idea that NTIs were the harbinger of the downfall of the U.S.?
Joel
>Thats the way it is. It all comes down to the patent. Of course you can >fabricate chairside using materials in your own office, and NTI has even [quoted text clipped - 200 lines] >> Quantity: >> Item Price: $8.00 Tim Dixon - 15 Sep 2005 14:03 GMT hahaha well the tooling is made in the USA, the devices are made in the USA, the corporation is in the USA and the patent holder lives in the USA.
> Okay then I am against it. > [quoted text clipped - 214 lines] >>> Quantity: >>> Item Price: $8.00 Joel M. Eichen - 15 Sep 2005 15:40 GMT Yeah PLASTICS, my boy. You got to go into plastics (1967)!
Line from the Graduate!
Dustin Hoffman movie.
The manufacturing of cheap plastics represent twenty or thirty cents a pop. The insurance companies that charge General Motors and Delta Airlines hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for health care are what's bankrupting the country!
Joel
Literally so. Corporations are dumping pension obligations through Chapter 11 and foisting it off onto the U.S. government.
>hahaha well the tooling is made in the USA, the devices are made in the USA, >the corporation is in the USA and the patent holder lives in the USA. [quoted text clipped - 217 lines] >>>> Quantity: >>>> Item Price: $8.00 Steven Fawks - 15 Sep 2005 17:37 GMT You have to be kidding. $25 for a pre-fab shell (plus instructions/resources/etc.) to make an NTI has you "against" the treatment?
It cost me that much just to sit a patient in the chair and then dismiss them without any treatment!
The alternative involves much more time, plus lots more steps to come up with a similar device. That is what makes no economic sense.
You also do not realize that a simple NTI can SAVE big bucks in prescription (& OTC) meds, preventing fractured teeth (crowns & endo), and just trip after trip to the dentist and physician searching for pain relief.
Fawks
> Okay then I am against it. > [quoted text clipped - 214 lines] >>>Quantity: >>>Item Price: $8.00 Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:58 GMT >You have to be kidding. $25 for a pre-fab shell (plus >instructions/resources/etc.) to make an NTI has you >"against" the treatment? No I am against bankrupting American corporations with procedures that are not life-threatening, or are not invasive and/or debilitating.
As example, Periostat revenue was $60 million a few years ago. What does it accomplish? I cannot find studies that tell me it works.
Filling a cavity reduces future expenses.
You guys claim an NTI reduces huge costs downstream but I am not so sure about the epidemiology.
How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed?
Joel
>It cost me that much just to sit a patient in the chair >and then dismiss them without any treatment! [quoted text clipped - 228 lines] >>>>Quantity: >>>>Item Price: $8.00 Steven Fawks - 16 Sep 2005 13:41 GMT They had it, but no one treated it because they didn't understand and they had no treatment to offer. Also, most people lost their teeth heading through middle age and ended up with dentures. The only sign left that a dentist observed was broken dentures and denture teeth.
In the early sixties the average 65 yr.-old had SIX teeth. Considering how averages worked that meant that a few people had most of their teeth and everyone else had ZERO.
Thirty years later that number rose to over 20 teeth. Again, with averages, most people had most of their teeth and a few had zero.
Most of my NTI construction is with patients over 40.
JME, Fawks
> How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind > of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? > > Joel Joel M. Eichen - 17 Sep 2005 02:19 GMT >They had it, but no one treated it because they didn't understand and >they had no treatment to offer. If they had it, did anyone report symptoms? I recall speaking to thousands, in fact tens of thousands of patients and it was rare guy with anything like that.
The exceptions came about when dentists started doing bilateral crowns .... for fear the patient would not follow through with treatment.
Joel
Also, most people lost their teeth
>heading through middle age and ended up with dentures. The only sign >left that a dentist observed was broken dentures and denture teeth. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> Joel Steven Fawks - 19 Sep 2005 21:10 GMT I saw lots of patients when I was fresh out of dental school (and for many years thereafter) who came to me with the same symptoms that I see now. The only difference was that I could not help them. Trying to say that this is something new is simply untrue.
Phrases I used to use almost daily:
"I can see no reason that your teeth should be causing you pain" "Jaw pain is something that I have not had much success treating" "Your teeth are wearing down way too fast" "I can refer you to an orthodontist to see if they can help" "I don't know why that tooth fractured" "Are you sure that you don't use a hard tooth brush and saw back and forth at the gumline?"
There is a word LL uses that may have an implication here.
;-) Fawks
>>They had it, but no one treated it because they didn't understand and >>they had no treatment to offer. > > If they had it, did anyone report symptoms? I recall speaking to > thousands, in fact tens of thousands of patients and it was rare guy > with anything like that.
> Joel Amatus Cremona - 19 Sep 2005 21:26 GMT > There is a word LL uses that may have an implication here. Lois Lane ?
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Amatus
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> > I saw lots of patients when I was fresh out of dental school (and for [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> Joel letsconnect2 - 20 Sep 2005 01:22 GMT >> There is a word LL uses that may have an implication here. > >Lois Lane ? Freddie Mercury?
I can't take the suspense...
W_B - 19 Sep 2005 21:43 GMT >There is a word LL uses that may have an implication here. > >;-) >Fawks Liar ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Tim Dixon - 16 Sep 2005 14:39 GMT >>You have to be kidding. $25 for a pre-fab shell (plus >>instructions/resources/etc.) to make an NTI has you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind > of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? I suppose it depends on what you are treating. SWF for example uses NTI's for all sorts of patients as he has stated many times, this small investment on his part helps protect the work he has previously done. Sure he could fabricate something, but not as quickly as he can with an NTI. Then there are the medically diagnosed migraine patients. I heard somewhere that the average migraine patient who has been treated by an MD for 5 to 15 years is spending somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000.00$ to 13,000.00$ of insurance money annually for their migraines. So along comes the NTI, gets a migraine indication from FDA for prevention of medically diagnosed migraine and peoples lives are forever changed. And because it can be billed to med. ins. most insurance companies are as happy as all get up to pay 1000.00 every few years for an NTI vs. 10's of thousands. But who is the happiest? The patient would be my bet, because all they want is relief. Dr. Boyd see's dozens of medically diagnosed migraine patients each week in a neurologists office where the first line of defense *now* is an NTI. That neuro will tell you that there are approx. 20 million patients they can't help because there are not enough neuro's to treat them.
Soon there will be some newly published literature on NTI that will alter the way neuros have previously treated migraine.
Joel and others, my suggestion is you go view these videos that I shot on May 19, 2005. These flash videos don't compare with the DVD version, but for educational purposes online they serve you well.
(Main collection, 4hrs in duration) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/drboyd5-19-05.html
(54) Migraine diagnosis and etiology) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/54.html
(55) Trigeminal motor and afferent effect on migraine) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/55.html
(60) Sympathetic Tension-Migraine Cycle) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/60.html
(61) NTI Migraine FDA clinical trials) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/61.html
(62) Clenching is a trigger enhancer) http://www.nti-tss.com/mxv/62.html
W_B - 16 Sep 2005 16:01 GMT >How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind >of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? > >Joel Better diagnosis. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen - 17 Sep 2005 02:20 GMT >>How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind >>of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? >> >>Joel > >Better diagnosis. DOC: "Any symptoms?"
Parient: "Nope."
DOC: "Okay, that means you got TMJ."
W_B - 19 Sep 2005 19:19 GMT >>>How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind >>>of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >DOC: "Okay, that means you got TMJ." Incisal edges worn through the enamel, abfractions, fractured teeth, multiple crowns.
Those sound like symptoms to me. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Stovepipe - 20 Sep 2005 04:41 GMT First, Sue Madden ( I MEAN: JME!!!!) wrote:
> >DOC: "Any symptoms?" > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Those sound like symptoms to me. > -- Lady came in for her cleaning and exam today. Not too long ago, I had done an MOL in Filtek Z-250 with their own flowable hybrid as well...
"Well it hurts when I eat cold or hot. "
<The pipe takes out his Fuji 6900Z digital with the 4X close up lens attached and plugs it into the VHS pluged into the Tee Vee.>
<Snap pic, no flash, just the unit light>
"Wow!!! Is that my tooth?"
"Yes: see those little yellow spots there where your cuspids (the pointy parts) should be? "
"......Yyyyeeessss...?......"
"Well, I covered those seven months ago and I told you I think you need protection for that tooth and the others as well. I even wrote it in here in the dossier. Now: see how you close your teeth together? It's like the lower tooth is acting like a sledge hammer destroying the top one"
"....wwhhmmasdf fgsgbm hmmmffffffff...."
" I Don't really feel like crowning all your teeth, and doing root canals on them, and etc..... Neither do YOU. THAT's why you need an NTI."
"......wwhhmmasdf fgsgbm hmmmffffffff...."
<The Pipe takes out the baseball bat and knocks some sense into her>
<One day, he'll write a book... NO!!!! they'd never believe him...>
;-)
SP
 Signature Take out the TRASH to reply
Steven Fawks - 20 Sep 2005 14:24 GMT > <One day, he'll write a book... NO!!!! they'd never believe him...> > > ;-) > > SP Some of us might.
;-( Fawks
Amatus Cremona - 20 Sep 2005 14:29 GMT > <One day, he'll write a book... NO!!!! they'd never believe him...> I am waiting for the video
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Amatus
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> >> <One day, he'll write a book... NO!!!! they'd never believe him...> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ;-( > Fawks Joel M. Eichen - 21 Sep 2005 01:52 GMT >> <One day, he'll write a book... NO!!!! they'd never believe him...> > >I am waiting for the video Blockbuster has it.
Roy Brown - 20 Sep 2005 17:45 GMT | >>>How come 30-40 years ago, one patient out of a thousand had this kind | >>>of problem? Today its not one out of one thousand. What's changed? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] | | W_B I disagree. These are signs, symptoms are what the patient reports.
 Signature Roy rem NADA to reply
W_B - 20 Sep 2005 19:18 GMT >| >>Better diagnosis. >| > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I disagree. These are signs, symptoms are what the patient reports. Many of my patients are aware that they are clenchers/grinders before I even say anything. The astute patient will often point out the wear patterns on anterior teeth to me.
Semantics aside, I suppose your term is more correct. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen - 21 Sep 2005 01:53 GMT >Many of my patients are aware that they are clenchers/grinders >before I even say anything. T They are watching too much TV.
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