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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005NTI cost
There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is the actual cost (to the dentist)? > There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device > retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is > the actual cost (to the dentist)? Nowadays around $420,000.00, but a little higher on the coasts. carabelli >but how much is > the actual cost (to the dentist)? Counting the time required to research it, study it, learn it properly, practice doing it until proficient, buying the material, buying the matrix and paying for copyright, plus office time, about $400 each. Add in the time spent going to school to get a diploma so one can legally place these devices, and the time spent building the practice to the point where the dentist is earning more than Burger King wages, then the cost of each one would be 3-4 times higher. Amatus / >> There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >> retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > carabelli I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. >I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. The matrix is far cheaper than the lab bill to have a "Horseshoe" made. However, one needs to consider taking enough time to learn to do it properly. The final cost per unit has to include time spent learning to do it, just like implants, RCT, surgery, etc.  Signature/ Amatus / >I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. >The final cost per unit has to include time spent learning to do >it, just like implants, RCT, surgery, etc. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just like surgery? Learning to place an nti is like learning surgery? You should practically give it away! WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile joint. You are the bulls in the temporomandibular china shop! ******* >WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >******* Hm? I was under the impression that TMJ/TMD was stress-related? What's the story? (I haven't followed previous discussions on this topic, so forgive me for my ignorance) >>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Hm? I was under the impression that TMJ/TMD was stress-related? Alright. "tmd" is stress related: The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular joint. -> "TMD" Reread the above HOW. My point is that for this reason nti should practically be given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the wearer, $125. >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the > wearer, $125. Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. What's wrong with it? >>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > What's wrong with it? Ok, define what "tmd" is. >> What's wrong with it? > >Ok, define what "tmd" is. Trancend Mental Dentication ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> What's wrong with it? >> >>Ok, define what "tmd" is. > > Trancend Mental Dentication ? Thats about as close as one could get I think. > >> What's wrong with it? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Actually, that's not bad..... I have some-a those kind-a patients SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Ok, define what "tmd" is. You're asking me to answer something I already wrote. uh.. that would be in the "disrupted function of temporomandibular joint" line, above, if you re-read what I wrote. Even better than giving the definition, I give the cause. You gave one example of something that makes 'TMD' symptoms worse. Not the cause. ;-) Fawks >>Ok, define what "tmd" is. > Even better than giving the definition, I give the cause. > You gave one example of something that makes > 'TMD' symptoms worse. Not the cause. What is the cause? Bruxism? >My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >wearer, $125. When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >wearer, $125. When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. -- W_B Flap's Reply: And establish your own business/practice. Flap http://flapsblog.com >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And establish your own business/practice. Fawks has it right. >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Fawks has it right. Fawks has what right? I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. If I can get a clencher (undergoing treatment for other procedures) to wear an NTI, everything is going to be smoother. I have fewer phone calls for post-op pain, fewer temporaries knocked off, more patients that think I'm pretty damn good, etc. I'd rather do 100 NTI's a year for $150 than 10 for $400. If a dentist is in a position where they can do 100 for $400 though, I'm not going to complain. It is a very valuable device. Fawks >>Fawks has it right. > > Fawks has what right? Thats what I thought you would say and I think you have it figured out as well as anybody that the NTI has more value to both doctor and patient than the dollar cost. It all comes down to the individual practice doesn't it? Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really based on what the medical insurance will pay. I believe the national average right now for a chairside NTI is around 450$ And in the end, it's still your license that is on the line. > I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes > just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Fawks has what right? >Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really based >on what the medical insurance will pay. I believe the national average >right now for a chairside NTI is around 450$ And in the end, it's still >your license that is on the line. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What does this last part mean? Lose license how? Lose license for charging less than a set price? Then price set by whom? >> I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes >> just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> >>> Fawks has what right? >>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>based [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lose license for charging less than a set price? > Then price set by whom? No one said anything about losing a license, you are out of context and putting words in my mouth. >>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>based [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >No one said anything about losing a license, you are out of context and >putting words in my mouth. Okay, then what does "in the end, it's still your license that is on the line" mean? >>>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>>based [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Okay, then what does "in the end, it's still your license that is on > the line" mean? It means just what it says. Believe me, SWF knows what I meant even if you don't, and thats all that matters. >>>>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>>>based [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >It means just what it says. Believe me, SWF knows what I meant even if you >don't, and thats all that matters. Oh yeah, I get it. Does not bother me. Not at all. > What does this last part mean? Lose license how? > Lose license for charging less than a set price? > Then price set by whom? In our own case, it's the price that has been figured by the CPA. Some treatments chez-nous are more $$$ than chez our neighbors, but most are less. It really depends on what the practice does to earn its living. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes > just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fawks I see nothing wrong with this position EXCEPT: Do the patients really APPRECIATE a device so inexpensive? Will they therefore not just let it fall by the wayside after a few months? Do insurance companies treat the NTI at that price as a real treatment or a gimmick and refuse to pay? If _I_ were a moderately motivated patient, I might not want to tough out the adaptation period if I knew that I only paid 150$ for it. If I paid 300$ for it, the motivation would be higher, I'm sure. As it is, we have a sliding scale of payment, and often the payments are in installments with post dated cheques. I'm not sitting at the front desk very often, but even so, I have yet to hear a patient who has learned to wear the NTI properly complain about its price. OTOH, we don't ever charge over 350$, and that is for someone who comes in specifically for that and needs nothing else. JMO SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> Fawks has it right. > >Fawks has what right? Fawks has it right, and SP, if you read the thread. >>> Fawks has it right. >> >>Fawks has what right? > > Fawks has it right, and SP, if you read the thread. Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how much they bill insurance. >>>> Fawks has it right. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how >much they bill insurance. So? >>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So? So ask them. >>>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >So ask them. What an @-hole! It's none of my business. For all I know, none. You don't know either. >>>>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It's none of my business. > For all I know, none. You don't know either. No i don't know, but it's not 15 bucks. It will be based on what the insurance company will pay if it's billed to medical as it should be. But it's not 15 bucks. Get it???????????? > Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how > much they bill insurance. I have seen quite a few, but I *DO NOT* want to develop a practice where I would see several each day! Some migraine patients are easy to treat and receptive to the NTI therapy. Others argue, quote their physician, their neurologist, their spouse, their friend, stuff they found on the web, and are just PITA's. "Their migraines are different" "I need to get a shot when they hit me" The thought that they are doing this to themselves is too frightening to consider and a little piece of plastic is way too simple for the complexities of their condition. $1,000 would not be enough for some of these. JME, Fawks >> Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how >> much they bill insurance. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > JME, > Fawks Thanx for the honest answer and opinion Steve. I didn't expect anything less from you. TD > >>> Fawks has it right. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how > much they bill insurance. As of today, 22 Sept 2005, 20h30 (PM) I've seen exactly... none. It is all the more frustrating in that I personally went to see each Mad Dog that shared the waiting room with me (before they retired) and I told them about the treatment and how it could help. I did not get ONE reference. .... Gang of immature children..... It _IS_ part of our Medical/Dental Questoinnaire though. And I _do_ insist on palpating the patients' head/neck/shoulder muscles the first time I see them. Not many believe me, and I just say: 'Very Well: when you're tired of enduring that pain and stiffness, we'll talk again.' Don't forget I'm in the poor end of Quebec..... This is the land of: don't put off 'till tomorrow what you can put off 'till only the specialist can fix it... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >-- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >http://flapsblog.com No thanks. Common sense is enough. Let's face it. Fitting an nti is not brain surgery or even implant surgery. It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco that one can learn to fit via cd. Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is egregious. >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >>-- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is > egregious. Really, what CD would that be? > It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >> that one can learn to fit via cd. >> Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is >> egregious. > >Really, what CD would that be? Dark Side of the Moon. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >>> that one can learn to fit via cd. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dark Side of the Moon. BRAIN DAMAGE The lunatic is on the grass The lunatic is on the grass Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs Got to keep the loonies on the path The lunatic is in the hall The lunatics are in my hall The paper holds their folded faces to the floor And every day the paper boy brings more And if the dam breaks open many years too soon And if there is no room upon the hill And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too I'll see you on the dark side of the moon The lunatic is in my head The lunatic is in my head You raise the blade, you make the change you re-arrange me 'till I'm sane You lock the door And throw away the key There's someone in my head but it's not me And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear You shout and no one seems to hear And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes I'll see you on the dark side of the moon. >>> It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >>>> that one can learn to fit via cd. >>>Really, what CD would that be? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The lunatic is on the grass Poor Sid. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > BRAIN DAMAGE > > The lunatic is on the grass > The lunatic is on the grass > Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs > Got to keep the loonies on the path Well FU*K all that, we gotta get on with THIS.... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >>given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >>or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >>wearer, $125. > >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. I don't have to have a dental degree to have an opinion. >-- >W_B [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >http://flapsblog.com >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > >I don't have to have a dental degree to have an opinion. > >>-- >>W_B Opinions are like a**holes -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Everybody has one? You appreciate your own but think others stink? Dan probably has more options. Fawks > Opinions are like a**holes > -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Opinions are like a**holes > -- .... One day, all of the parts of the body were discussing who should be boss. The eyes said that since with out him, the body could not see, he should be boss. The legs said that since without him, the body could not move forward, he should be boss. The brain, of course tried to dazzle them with his elegant logic, and terminated three hours later, saying that therefore, he should be boss. The stomach, the intestines, the heart, the feet; all the important parts stated their cases. - Then the a.shole applied for the job. - The other parts of the body almost killed them selves laughing- so much so that the a.shole became mad and closed up. After a few days, the brain went foggy, the eyes crossed, the leggs wobbled, and all the other parts started to go awray. After a couple more days of this, the other parts relented and pronounced that the a.shole could be boss. -What does this mean?- That one does not have to be smart, clear- and far-sighted, strong, fast, or any of a million other attributes to be boss. -One just has to be an a.shole._ S P SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > Reread the above HOW. Do you have internet access under your bridge? Signature/ Amatus / > >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the > wearer, $125. >Do you have internet access under your bridge? Do you? >>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of >>force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >>joint. You are bulls in the temporomandibular china shop! >>Do you have internet access under your bridge? > >Do you? Only on the lower right 3-unit. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >joint. -> "TMD" So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental procedures, rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching or grinding? I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? Or are you saying RCT actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? *confused* >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > *confused* So then what is TMJ? Seems like that's what is being implied. Dental treatment is 'no big deal' for 'normal' patients. Patients who have joint issues can have significant pain after a long appointment. The dental treatment does not cause the condition, but it can cause symptoms to go from 'mild & sub clinical' to 'it hurts bad'. It's easy to see how these patients sometimes do not understand their condition. They cruise along for months without significant pain that they attribute to their TMJ's. Sit in a dental chair for an hour getting a few fillings, crown, or root canal, and can hardly open their jaw the next morning. For them, dental treatment seems to be the cause of their pain. JMO, Fawks > So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental > procedures, rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > *confused* >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >procedures, no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >or grinding? the mechanical disruption is primary, the other symptoms you describe are secondary - are symptoms of mechanical disruption. >I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. >Or are you saying RCT >actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj >*confused* I'm still saying what I already said: >HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of >force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >joint. >The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >joint. -> "TMD" And for this reason, they will do better in the long run to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. > No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj Llort, inversion syndrome Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. > And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. >>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>procedures, > >no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. What force ? >>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>or grinding? > >the mechanical disruption is primary, the other symptoms you describe >are secondary - are symptoms of mechanical disruption. Untrue. >>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? > >No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. False. >>Or are you saying RCT >>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? > >No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj Again, untrue. >>*confused* > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >>joint. Ahh Ha, now you have hit the nail. You have stumbled upon the definition of parafunction. >>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. >And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. It's not $12. Just for the sake of argument: Materials........$30 Knowing where and when to place materials ....................$200 - 500 It's about diagnosis. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side which results in "parafunction". >>>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>>or grinding? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Untrue. True. (I'm right ;) >>>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? >> >>No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. >> >False. Not False. >>>Or are you saying RCT >>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? >> >>No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj >> >Again, untrue. True. >>>*confused* >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Ahh Ha, now you have hit the nail. >You have stumbled upon the definition of parafunction. Parafunction is caused by: >>>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Knowing where and when to place materials >....................$200 - 500 In the UK they know for $15. Jim knows for free during a seminar. Some dentists know for no charge, or break even w/the idea that the device protects their work, makes their job easier and creates priceless good will. Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious particularly since as a class dentists cause tmd. Sure, I know - a person can charge what he wants. People can also choose where to go. >It's about diagnosis. tmd is easy to diagnose. nti is a simple device. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side >which results in "parafunction". Assumes facts not in evidence, onset of parafunction is idiopathic. >>>>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>>>or grinding? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >True. (I'm right ;) Sorry, you are wrong. >>>>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>>>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Not False. Yep, false. >>>>Or are you saying RCT >>>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >True. Absolutely not. >>>>*confused* >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious particularly >since as a class dentists cause tmd. Again, parafuntion is idiopathic. Your opinion stinks just like that other thang. > Sure, I know - >a person can charge what he wants. People can also >choose where to go. Greed is wanting something for nothing. Get yourself to the UK, and see how you fare there. >>It's about diagnosis. > >tmd is easy to diagnose. No it actually is not. >nti is a simple device. NTI is a very well though out and designed device. It took years to develop. Elegant ? Maybe. Simple ? Not a chance. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Assumes facts not in evidence, onset of parafunction is >idiopathic. I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just laid out a logical explanation of the cause. >>True. (I'm right ;) >> >Sorry, you are wrong. right. >>>>>Or are you saying RCT >>>>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Absolutely not. It is so. >>>>>*confused* >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Again, parafuntion is idiopathic. No. Mechanical origin as already explained. >Your opinion stinks just like that other thang. Same to you. >> Sure, I know - >>a person can charge what he wants. People can also >>choose where to go. > >Greed is wanting something for nothing. >Get yourself to the UK, and see how you fare there. In the UK some people got their ntis for $15 Some dentists here charge little for an nti. How does it follow that I should go to the UK??? >>>It's about diagnosis. >> >>tmd is easy to diagnose. > >No it actually is not. Not hard to recognize. >>nti is a simple device. >> >NTI is a very well though out and designed device. >It took years to develop. > >Elegant ? Maybe. Simple ? Not a chance. Ask Jim Boyd if the device is simple. >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just >laid out a logical explanation of the cause. Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction is unknown. Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. How do you explain that ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >is unknown. Not to me. >Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. >How do you explain that ? Depends. I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only women, beginning around thirties, I thought. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >is unknown. > > Not to me. Llort eht deef ton od esealp. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >>is unknown. >> >> Not to me. > >Llort eht deef ton od esealp. Done. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction > >is unknown. > > > > Not to me. > > Llort eht deef ton od esealp. .pots ll'I ,KO SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only > women, beginning around thirties, I thought. Thats the problem, you thought. >> Depends. >> I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only >> women, beginning around thirties, I thought. > >Thats the problem, you thought. Tried to think is probably closer to the mark. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> Depends. >>> I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > W_B Yeah I think you are correct. >>Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. >>How do you explain that ? > >Depends. >I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only >women, beginning around thirties, I thought. That's what you get for thinking. Though it is debatable that you think at all. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > >>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not to me. Then, Min, a Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine awaits you. > >Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. > >How do you explain that ? > > Depends. > I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only > women, beginning around thirties, I thought. What?!?!?!?! Min!!!!!!!: you must treat clenching and grinding from about TWELVE years old up to and through adulthood. Thirty years old is oodles of time to have damaged teeth/joints/muscles. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just > laid out a logical explanation of the cause. Llort -- just ask Leonardo Di Vinci Signature/ Amatus / > >>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* > disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side > which results in "parafunction". Llort -- in reverse proportion Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious My fee is $250. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious > >My fee is $250. I know. I read that before. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious > > My fee is $250. And you undoubtedly collect it 'egregious-ly', I sure... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply W_B writed furst: > >What force ? > > Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* > disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side > which results in "parafunction" No, Min: you would not let the dentist injure you like that. You are not sleeping during these procedures. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? To be more specific, jamming the mandible backward and/or laterally disrupt, where normally FORWARD (mandible forward on the person) and chin staying on the midline are better. >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >forward on the person) and chin staying on the midline are >better. What the heck are you talking about ? What you describe sounds like a boxing match. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >What you describe sounds like a boxing match. Whats so unclear? mandible: lateral, backward movement - avoid non-lateral, forward movement - good Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during >>>>>>dental [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, > or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims tmd exists and i'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It ain't gonna happen sister. > No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims > tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets > have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It isn't gonna > happen sister. I know what TMD is. TMD = Tim M. Dixon I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It ain't gonna > happen sister. >> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims >> tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. Very good.. but even I don't know what the "M" stands for. >> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims >> tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. 'Mighty' -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > 'Mighty' hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a simple "G" >TMD = Tim M. Dixon > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. > > 'Mighty' Actually -- TMD = Ti M Dixon Signature/ Amatus / > >>>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > simple "G" >>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Actually -- TMD = Ti M Dixon Hey thats pretty good. >>>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a >simple "G" G = Goodman ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that > >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > simple "G" That's a pity: 'Come-on without.... Come-on within... You've not seen nothin' like the MIGHTY Tim...' ;-) SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that >> >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > MIGHTY Tim...' ;-) > SP Hey I love that song, of course I love all Dylan songs.. > >> hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > >> simple "G" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hey I love that song, of course I love all Dylan songs.. I prefer the Manfred Mann version, myself... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >TMD = Tim M. Dixon > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. > > 'Mighty' Magnificent ! Signature/ Amatus / > >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Magnificent ! Now the Mrs. might say that ;-) >>What the heck are you talking about ? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mandible: >lateral, backward movement - avoid So, don't chew, right ? Dumb. >non-lateral, forward movement - good Even dumber. >Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, >or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to > enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. West Marine stocks lots of the supplies you would need. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>What the heck are you talking about ? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to >> enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. > >West Marine stocks lots of the supplies you would need. Indeed. It appears that my immediate need would be a 'hook-out' <g> -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>What the heck are you talking about ? >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >Even dumber. You have missed the point. What I am referring to here, what we were discussing, is the *force applied by the operator during a dental procedure*. >>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? >-Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >-duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* Hardly relates to chewing, now does it? Or maybe I am mistaken and they have meals and rct simultaneously time at your place? >>So, don't chew, right ? >>Dumb. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >What I am referring to here, what we were discussing, >is the *force applied by the operator during a dental procedure*. It is you that have missed the point. What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm while preparing #20 for a DO ? Gorilla-fist dentists are a rare species. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm >while preparing #20 for a DO ? Why? At x lbs of pressre in y direction for z time the garage door gets unhinged? not necessary. Knowing which directions to avoid is useful! as I already mentioned, that is something I suppose is taught in dental college, I'm surprised if it is not. C'mon. Let's face it. It is so obvious that during big time consuming dental procedures, and when using a dam there is tremendous strain on the joint. It's undeniable, it is far outside the normal use of the "tm system". "Parafunction" is simply the bodies attempt, via musculature to correct the disrupted "disc assembly", the unhinged garage door. The "tm system" is particularly susceptible because it is a fragile complex system, a fragile, complex "closed system" I would call it. The side by side graphic says a lot. I'm not so sure it's *only a psa block* paralyzing the ipsilateral LP that is causing an imalance in opening efforts. http://www.nti-tss.com/TM-Animated-Tuorial/Unilater-LP-activity.html >Gorilla-fist dentists are a rare species. Apes in lab coats? Some have lighter hands, some have heavy hands. >-- >W_B > >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Take out the G'RBAGE >>What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm >>while preparing #20 for a DO ? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > is a fragile complex system, a fragile, complex "closed system" > I would call it. Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive without masticating. Period Acute trauma can occur when access is needed for dental procedures. If the existing TMJ anatomy is already stressed from previous parafunction the patient is more likely to have problems from acute trauma. And acute trauma from any source can disrupt TMJ function, however I am not aware of trauma inducing parafunctional activity. If you are, please provide us with some peer reviewed evidence. You are totally off base. Are you a dentist? How long have you been practicing? carabelli > Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive > without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > inducing parafunctional activity. If you are, please provide us with some > peer reviewed evidence. That's the way I understood it as well. What's the actual cause of parafunction, though? >> Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >> without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > What's the actual cause of parafunction, though? 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. 2. Why this is the response - I don't have a clue. For some people playing with a string of beads, etc will provide a physical activity that alleviates to some extent the mental stress that (acknowledged or not) exists. For some reason unknown to me, unusual and/or certainly unnecessary physical activity (clenching) is an involuntary response to stress levels that may affect one individual and may not affect the next. 3. If you do not exercise on a regular basis you should. Why, because I said so. If that doesn't make sense - go back to # 1 carabelli > 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for > *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > activity (clenching) is an involuntary response to stress levels that may > affect one individual and may not affect the next. Ain't that the truuuth: When I'm takin' out a tooth on a medically compromized elder lady, and I DON'T wanna see it break, and she's waited until there's no lingual left on the tooth, and so I have to force the beaks WAY subgingival to find something to grab onto, and I only have 20 minutes to do this,,,, I catch myself CLENCHIN' my teeth real good... and then I berate myself for concentratin' on my clenching instead of the tooth, and then I refocus on the tooth, and this goes round and round a few times.... ... And if that happens more'n once a week, I've got my NIGHTTIME NTI in place, and I'm bitin' on it but good.... .... and I don't care if they can't understand what I'm sayin'.... ... And if they ask why, I tell them that over your'n, in the US of A, people TAKE CARE of their teeth and they don't wait till the last minute to get a tooth out if that's what is necessary. And I tell them that I know dentists who charge what the xray says the tooth is: simple or complex compared with the bone, even if the dentist was able to take it out as a simple extraction. .... And I tell them I want them to heal up and come back to get the rest of the mouth looked at because I don't want them having problems with their teeth as well as their heart.... or they can go get treated in a hospital milieu where all bets are covered.... and so is the $$$$ thay they will pay.... .... and THEN, and ONLY then, do I take out my NTI. .... and I take off my helmet and my seatbelt, ... and my O2 mask.... Because if the tooth breaks, it is NOT my fault, and they will have to come back some other time.... .... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... .... and meanwhile my staff steal my Big Mac Trio lunch and my extra Mountain Dew... .... and the petty cash money... ... and I stare thoughtfully into the distant sky.... .... and CLENCH summore.... <....the Pipe bursts out crying into his iBook....> <.... and the sparks start flyin'.....> HAVE A FRIGGIN' NICE DAY!!!!!!!!! :-/ SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >.... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... You stop anticoagulant therapy? Amatus >> 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for >> *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >SP .. Amatus . First, the Pipe whined: > >.... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... > > You stop anticoagulant therapy? > > Amatus For extractions, I ask that the Mad Dogs do, yes. I ask them to bring the patient into a clotting in 10-15 minutes range. That usually means reducing and not eliminating the dose. I don't usually touch it for anything else. If all they're taking is aspirin, I don't stop that. Usually put Surgicel in the alveolus, and send them to the waiting room biting on a wet tea bag and with an ice pack on and off for thirty minutes. They resume normal medication the next morning. Of course, this has to be tempered with the clinical situation. If the teeth are fairly mobile, periodontally involved, I may not touch the Coumadin at _all_. Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for extractions? SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for >extractions? Normally I do not stop the medication if they can clot at all. Rather than ask the physician to stop the medication I prefer to ask for a bleeding time test. I would prefer the socket bleeds for an extra 45 minutes over the patient having a stroke. Amatus >First, the Pipe whined: >> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >SP .. Amatus . > >Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for > >extractions? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Amatus OK, I can accept that. Where do you get your bleeding time? Or do you do it yourself with a stylet in the ear lobe? Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >OK, I can accept that. Where do you get your bleeding time? Or do you do >it yourself with a stylet in the ear lobe? I ask the physician for a bleeding time test rather than ask if the anti-coagulant therapy should be changed. The physician does not really understand how much bleeding we are going to create. Always use stitches with these folks, gel-foam would be okay as well. Amatus >> >Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for >> >extractions? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Amatus >Thanks >SP .. Amatus . > >OK, I can accept that. Where do you get your bleeding time? Or do you do > >it yourself with a stylet in the ear lobe? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Amatus OK... Yes the suture idea is a good one: one could do a figure X over the alveolus and that would hold in the GelFoam/Surgicel. Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >OK... Yes the suture idea is a good one: one could do a figure X over >the alveolus and that would hold in the GelFoam/Surgicel. Sort of like a "mattress suture"? Amatus >> >OK, I can accept that. Where do you get your bleeding time? Or do you do >> >it yourself with a stylet in the ear lobe? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Thanks >SP .. Amatus . The Pipe peeped: > >OK... Yes the suture idea is a good one: one could do a figure X over > >the alveolus and that would hold in the GelFoam/Surgicel. > > Sort of like a "mattress suture"? > > Amatus Not sure "mattress" is what you'd call it: Let's say you're taking out a fully erupted bombed-out lower right 1st molar (4-6 to me, #30 to you). You push and pull and do it atraumatically and end up with an nice undammaged alveolus, with no gingival tears. You look at it from the occlusal and you see a "rectangular" alveolus with four "corners": the DB, DL, MB and ML. You take your suture and you go in on the buccal side of the DB, pull through and go straight across, through and out of the DL, coming out on the tongue side. You come back and go into the MB from the buccal, and straight through to the ML, coming out the lingual of the ML side. You now have one arm of the "X" from the DL through the MB. You wrap your thread, grab the end that is still sticking out the DB side of the "rectangle", and you tie your knot. In this way, your other arm of the "X" goes from the ML to the DB with the knot. You don't pull too tight, as you're not trying to close a flap. If you opened the gum with a flap, say to remove a covered third molar, you _could_ pull tighter and get good apposition of the flap boarders to get good closure. I saw the OMFSs doing that in third molar extractions during my multidisciplinary year at the Mtl General. Hope this is clearer. But I don't think that is a mattress suture. Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >First, the Pipe whined: >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the patient into a clotting in 10-15 minutes range. That usually means >reducing and not eliminating the dose. It is humbly suggested that dentists acquaint themsleves anbd foillow standard procedures .... Joel' I don't usually touch it for >anything else. If all they're taking is aspirin, I don't stop that. >Usually put Surgicel in the alveolus, and send them to the waiting room [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >SP > >For extractions, I ask that the Mad Dogs do, yes. I ask them to bring > >the patient into a clotting in 10-15 minutes range. That usually means [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > standard procedures .... > Joel' Point taken: the last time I looked, standard procedure was not longer than 1.5 times the INR in clotting times. That is what I'm shooting for, but I cannot do that test: I'm not equipped, and I won't draw blood as well as an experienced nurse will. I'll get it, but the poor Dame will be black and blue for a week. I can do a clotting test on the earlobe, but that is supposed to be inaccurate. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > > What's the actual cause of parafunction, though? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 3. If you do not exercise on a regular basis you should. Why, because I > said so. If that doesn't make sense - go back to # 1 Would you also recommend things like relaxation CDs to your patients (in addition to exercise)? I was wondering because I've heard good reports about relaxation CDs (hemi-sync and the like) reducing tension and migraine-like headaches. >>>What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm >>>while preparing #20 for a DO ? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >without masticating. Period ??? Where in the above, do I mention mastication? Did you confuse what I wrote - "via musculature" with "via mastication"? Yes, overdrive. I agree with the above. I have not stated anything contrary, so I don't get the "Nope." >Acute trauma can occur when access is needed for dental procedures. If the >existing TMJ anatomy is already stressed from previous parafunction the >patient is more likely to have problems from acute trauma. I do not agree. It is not always already stressed. The dental procedure IS (CAN BE) the stress. >And acute trauma >from any source can disrupt TMJ function, however I am not aware of trauma >inducing parafunctional activity. If you are, please provide us with some >peer reviewed evidence. >You are totally off base. Are you a dentist? How long have you been >practicing? It's not at all off base. Not something dental science is ever going to propose. You MUST BE kidding with the last 2 Qs. >The side by side graphic says a lot. >I'm not so sure it's *only a psa block* paralyzing the ipsilateral >LP that is causing an imalance in opening efforts. >http://www.nti-tss.com/TM-Animated-Tuorial/Unilater-LP-activity.html >>Gorilla-fist dentists are a rare species. >Apes in lab coats? >Some have lighter hands, some have heavy hands. >Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >without masticating. Period http://www.nti-tss.com/TM-Animated-Tuorial/Unilater-LP-activity.html On a garage door, the springs are biologically inert. When a metal hinge goes, the door just sits there until someone repairs. The spring is not going to go into overdrive when the hinge gives. Now, on a human however, the springs are alive and they ARE going into overdrive when the hinge gets disrupted. They are seeking balance, they are seeking to correct the imbalance of the disrupted hinge and THAT is parafunction. >>Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >>without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > seeking to correct the imbalance of the disrupted hinge and THAT is > parafunction. Nope. JB is correct, you aren't. carabelli >>>Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >>>without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >carabelli The two are not mutually exlusive. I do not disagree AT ALL with what he says about an anesthetized ipsilateral LP not able to advance its condyle creating an ibmalance in opening efforts and left excursive movement. I think it's very important! That's why I selected this part of the tutorial. I was adding to, not disputing what he's saying in the side by side graphic. > >What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm > >while preparing #20 for a DO ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mentioned, that is something I suppose is taught in > dental college, I'm surprised if it is not. Pleeze don't eat the dasies... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply Minnie wrote first: > >>HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of > >>force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile > >>joint. > > > Ahh Ha, now you have hit the nail. > You have stumbled upon the definition of parafunction. Atta-boy,,,, Min!!!!! > >>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, > >>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. > >And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. 'K,,,,, lemmee see now: If _you_ spent four or five years to earn the right to perform surgeries on people's teeth and gums, and because one device is miraculously simple (and nevertheless took some blood sweat and tears to develop), you'd be OK with charging 12$ for it? I don't think so, Min. You'd have invested your time and energy, and you'd have to get yourself out of debt and pay the rent/equipment/sararies/taxes/Teamsters/etc. That is the way it works down your'n and up here too. If you wanted to do that, you'd have to go work for the government somewhere, where you had a salary and the patients didn't have to pay. SP > It's not $12. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's about diagnosis. SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > And for this reason, they will do better in the long run > to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. > And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. Well you are yet to define either TMD or TMJ because you can't. There is no such condition. End of story. If someone has told you that you have TMJ or TMD, you have not been properly diagnosed. End of story. NTI is not going to end up in wal-mart. Whoever said that was saying it tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. >> And for this reason, they will do better in the long run >> to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >such condition. End of story. If someone has told you that you have TMJ or >TMD, you have not been properly diagnosed. End of story. tm joint tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? >NTI is not going to end up in wal-mart. Whoever said that was saying it >tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the >only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. >>> And for this reason, they will do better in the long run >>> to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tm joint > tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? My point is simple, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. >>NTI is not going to end up in wal-mart. Whoever said that was saying it >>tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the >>only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. >> tm joint >> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? > >My point is simple, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Yes I do. At the same time, of course, I don't expect agreement from dentists here. Predictable. Par for the course. >>>NTI is not going to end up in wal-mart. Whoever said that was saying it >>>tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the >>>only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. >>> tm joint >>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes I do. At the same time, of course, I don't expect agreement > from dentists here. Predictable. Par for the course. Then define what this condition you call tmd or tmj is. Specifics ok? >>>> tm joint >>>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Then define what this condition you call tmd or tmj is. Specifics ok? Tim this sounds an awful lot like LL aka JD. Whaddaya think ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>> tm joint >>>>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Tim this sounds an awful lot like LL aka JD. > Whaddaya think ? It certainly bears a resemblance in style. Frankly I don't get the point of it all, if a dentist wants to give NTI's away, thats his business, if he wants to charge a usual and customary price based on his demographics, thats fine too. Patients as a whole have no say-so in the matter. > >>>>> tm joint > >>>>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It certainly bears a resemblance in style. Not enough spelling errors. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>> tm joint >>>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Then define what this condition you call tmd or tmj is. Specifics ok? If you're hung up on semantics, replace "tmj" with "tm system" and "tmd" with "parafunction". Example >The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >joint. -> "TMD" to >The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >system. -> Parafunction Concept is the same >>>>> tm joint >>>>> tm dysfunction... who cares? What's your point? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Concept is the same That explains absolutely NOTHING! You would be much better off finding some CLS group to ply your crazy ideas on. They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with your insanity. >They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with your >insanity. lol. No, I don't expect agreement. >>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, >>disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >>system. -> Parafunction > >Concept is the same A slight correction here. Not that you can or will see it. This should read: Disrupts the STRUCTURE of the delicate temporomandibular system -> Parafunction. Function following structure. parafunction follows disrupted structure. >>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>your [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > parafunction follows disrupted structure. and thats tmd? really... please give it up, you just make yourself look very foolish. >>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>>your [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >and thats tmd? really... please give it up, you just make yourself look >very foolish. nah, there is no such condition as tmd. This shows the cause of parafunction. >>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>>>your [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > nah, there is no such condition as tmd. > This shows the cause of parafunction. Really... just give it up, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing ok. >>>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>>>>your [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Really... just give it up, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing >ok. I put forth the logical origin of parafunction, the related reason and other reasons why IMO dentists should not gouge on ntis. >>>>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>>>>>your [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I put forth the logical origin of parafunction, the related reason > and other reasons why IMO dentists should not gouge on ntis. Logical origin of parafunction? Yeah it's just that simple.. Give it a break already, no-one really gives two hoots what you think and you are obviously very confused. >>>>>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with >>>>>>>your [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Logical origin of parafunction? Yeah it's just that simple.. Yes, it is that simple. >Give it a break already, no-one really gives two hoots what you think and >you are obviously very confused. No. I am not confused. >>>>>>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree >>>>>>>>with [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > No. I am not confused. I'm done yakking with you. Take your screwball ideas elsewhere. C-Ya >>>>>>>> lol. No, I don't expect agreement. >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >C-Ya Nothing screwball about it. Buh-bye. >I'm done yakking with you. Smart idea! Amatus >>>>>>>>>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree >>>>>>>>>with [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >C-Ya .. Amatus . >I'm done yakking with you. Take your screwball ideas elsewhere. > >C-Ya Eromyna llort eht deef ton s'tel. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>Really... just give it up, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing >>ok. > >I put forth the logical origin of parafunction, the related reason >and other reasons why IMO dentists should not gouge on ntis. Mr. Hankey in a punch bowl. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with your >>insanity. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >parafunction follows disrupted structure. "Form follows function, and is genetic." -Dr. R.L. The weakest joint in the human body is the knee. Human skeletal joints are not delicate and are robustly designed. However, all joints, whether biologic or not, are prone to injury and possible failure. Case in poinst: N.O. levees, Joe Klecko. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >>>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >They aren't going to fly around here and no-one is going to agree with your >insanity. Responses show why dentistry will always consider the onset of parafunction idiopathic. "Minnie" <minnie@yahoo.com> wrote ....... > Responses show why dentistry will always consider the onset of > parafunction idiopathic. I that supposed to make sense? carabelli >"Minnie" <minnie@yahoo.com> wrote ....... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >carabelli I what? > >"Minnie" <minnie@yahoo.com> wrote ....... > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I what? Thanks carabelli > I what? I-Gore There wolf, there castle. Signature/ Amatus / > >> >"Minnie" <minnie@yahoo.com> wrote ....... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > carabelli > Yes I do. At the same time, of course, I don't expect agreement > from dentists here. Predictable. Par for the course. The gauze pad in your mouth applies direct pressure to the surgical site, which is the best way to control bleeding. The gauze can be removed in 45 minutes, replace it if needed. Some oozing of blood is to be expected for the first day or two. Because even a very small amount of blood turns the saliva red, there is usually much less bleeding than might appear. Do not rinse your mouth for at least 24 hours following surgery. After this time you should gently rinse your mouth every 4 hours, or after you eat, with salt water (a teaspoon of salt in a glass of war water), or prescribed mouthwash. Signature/ Amatus / > >>> tm joint [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the >>>>only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. > After this time > you should gently rinse your mouth every 4 hours, or after you eat, with > salt water (a teaspoon of salt in a glass of war water), or prescribed > mouthwash. ..... 'war water'..... where can I git somm-a that stuff? I guess that's what War-Wolves drink? Or War-MIL's....?... ;-) SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply Tim Dean just sent me pictures of his NTI that has not helped his symptoms. You guessed it. (actually Ametus did first) It is a 'stock' matrix filled with SNAP and untouched from there. No adjustments. Nada. Nill. Way too tall for a bite that looks to be a class II. Big downward ramp from back to front. Looks like a lower cuspid can contact the device. The lower teeth may be too uneven making it necessary to flip the NTI over before construction. etc. The dentist did not go to any training and didn't even read and follow the directions that come with the kit. Now he will go around saying that he tried a few NTI's but they don't work. What a total IDIOT. You know, swinging a bat to hit a baseball sure looks simple. Same with NTI's I guess. Some people have an eye for it and some don't. JME, Fawks >>And for this reason, they will do better in the long run >>to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > tongue in cheek. That patent has a long time before it runs out and the > only way it can be purchased is by a licensed dentist. End of story. > And for this reason, they will do better in the long run > to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. > And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. That was me, and it was a _joke_, Min. The NTI will NOT end up at Wal-Mart. I wonder if they even have it on DentalTown? SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. refer him to www.NTI-tss.com and he can decide for himself. carabelli > refer him to > www.NTI-tss.com > and he can decide for himself. Did that, but neither of us can find the price list. >> refer him to >> www.NTI-tss.com >> and he can decide for himself. > > Did that, but neither of us can find the price list. The dentist would be advised to call NTI directly at: Bob Weber Sales and Marketing (574) 258-5963 (574) 258-5967 - fax >> refer him to >> www.NTI-tss.com >> and he can decide for himself. > >Did that, but neither of us can find the price list. There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. It's called the Telephone. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. > > It's called the Telephone. Is that the device with the numerical keypad only? Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. >> There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. Telegraph ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Telegraph ? Pony Express? Its FAST. > >Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. > > Telegraph ? Is that the same as nttp ? It's hard to keep up with the jargon *sigh*... >> >Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. >> >> Telegraph ? > >Is that the same as nttp ? It's hard to keep up with the jargon >*sigh*... No it's kinda liked dah-dit-dit-dah. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > No it's kinda liked dah-dit-dit-dah. Dah didi Dah = X-ray Vaughn >> No it's kinda liked dah-dit-dit-dah. > >Dah didi Dah = X-ray > >Vaughn Clever. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > dah-dit-dit-dah http://seti.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=arti cle&sid=23&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply | > There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. | > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | | Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) > If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) ...and before that; the hand crank, the operator, and multiple rings on party lines. Vaughn >> If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) > > ...and before that; the hand crank, the operator, and multiple rings on >party lines. > >Vaughn We had that ...... growing up ... til my parents put a stop top it! >> If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) > > ...and before that; the hand crank, the operator, and multiple rings on >party lines. > >Vaughn I still say telegraph. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com "W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote........ > I still say telegraph. > -- > > W_B smoke signals carabelli > smoke signals Hollow logs and heavy sticks or dried bones. Signature/ Amatus / > > "W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote........ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > carabelli >> smoke signals > >Hollow logs and heavy sticks or dried bones. cave paintings -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >"W_B" <no_one@nowhere.net> wrote........ > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >carabelli Face to face -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > I still say telegraph. That reminds me. My favorite antique, my precious line of manholes down US 1 that still had reminants of the original turn-of the-century wooden duct and certainly saw many dots and dashes, (was originally installed by Western Union) but until recently housed my fiber optic net, recently fell victim to DOT idiocy. It is gone, to be replaced with wimpy PCV conduit down the sidewalk. And you dentists think that *you* have problems. Vaughn > -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > > If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) > > ...and before that; the hand crank, the operator, and multiple rings on > party lines. > > Vaughn ... and Bakelite... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> > If you are old-fashioned, I expected to hear you mention a dial. ;-) >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >SP ...or wood. I got a few antique wooden phones. >> There's this new fangled device, maybe you have heard of it. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Call me old-fashioned, but I'd rather stick with the tried and trusted. Generally if information is not available on the internet, it won't be readily available on the phone. People use the internet/phone connection to suck in prospective customers. I often send my name and number which is required to get an e-mail reply and then a bunch of live phone calls come in where someone is dying to sell me something. Of course they very rarely connect with a live person at this end too! Joel > >> refer him to > >> www.NTI-tss.com [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com It's made of Bakelite. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. No offense to you, but that statement is absurd. Traditional occlusal guards rarely work very well. The lab bill can be over close to $200. Why would $200 for something that is not effective be better than $400 for something that does the job? The cost isn't a big issue anyway, but that is some messed up logic. JMO, Fawks > No offense to you, but that statement is absurd. Traditional occlusal > guards rarely work very well. The lab bill can be over close to $200. > Why would $200 for something that is not effective be better than $400 > for something that does the job? > > The cost isn't a big issue anyway, but that is some messed up logic. I probably phrased it badly. What I actually meant was that he works in an area where, due to demographics etc., there wouldn't be enough people who'd be willing and/or able to pay $450-$650 (which was a rough guesstimate I threw out originally). >> No offense to you, but that statement is absurd. Traditional occlusal >> guards rarely work very well. The lab bill can be over close to $200. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >people who'd be willing and/or able to pay $450-$650 (which was a rough >guesstimate I threw out originally). Currently charge $250 for an NTI. Would rather people that need them can afford them. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I'm on the cheap side too. They prevent so many problems for *ME* (as well as the patient), that I don't want the price to be prohibitive. On cases where I may be doing a root canal and several crowns (from years of clenching), I often do not charge for the NTI at all. I know that treatment will be easier and last longer with NTI use. Fawks > Currently charge $250 for an NTI. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > > No offense to you, but that statement is absurd. Traditional occlusal > > guards rarely work very well. The lab bill can be over close to $200. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people who'd be willing and/or able to pay $450-$650 (which was a rough > guesstimate I threw out originally). He doesn't _have_ to make a profit on every NTI: someone who just had extensive restorations would benefit greatly, and so in those cases he could charge cost plus XYZ percent so as not to lose money. His accountant should be able to fix a price. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's >interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt >he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. Have the dentist contact the site. Cost is reasonable. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Can we assume a house is thrown in for that price, or is that just the expense of ????? and are people on the coasts more nervous and in need of NTI's. Gail > > There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device > > retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > carabelli Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? or alginate? or cotton rolls? > There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device > retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is > the actual cost (to the dentist)? >Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? 25 cents per carpule ... plus the needle ... and the gloves at three cents a pop. Joel > or >alginate? or cotton rolls? > >> There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >> retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >> the actual cost (to the dentist)? >>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? > > 25 cents per carpule ... plus the needle ... and the gloves at three > cents a pop. Or 12$ per aspirin in the hospital, sutures at 18$ per inch, and so on and so forth. How about a dye injected cinearthrogram at 2700.00$ and 125$ for the sterile draping per jojnt? >>>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Or 12$ per aspirin in the hospital, sutures at 18$ per inch, and so on and >so forth. I bring my own ........ >How about a dye injected cinearthrogram at 2700.00$ and 125$ for the sterile >draping per jojnt? >>>>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I bring my own ........ Sutures too? > > I bring my own ........ > Sutures too? Well . . . suture self. ;-) -dentaldoc >> > I bring my own ........ > >> Sutures too? > > Well . . . suture self. ;-) I'm pretty sure Joel is the kind of guy that he would do that very thing ;->) >>> > I bring my own ........ >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I'm pretty sure Joel is the kind of guy that he would do that very thing >;->) There are lots of crazy people who do their own operations on themselves ..... >> > I bring my own ........ > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -dentaldoc Whatever, I would like to see some closure on this subject. carabelli >>> > I bring my own ........ >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >carabelli Primary closure is quicker, secondary takes longer. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> > I bring my own ........ > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >-dentaldoc Pfunny ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Sutures too? I do the suturing at home afterwards ....... I practiced on the turkey last Thanksgiving. >>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? > >25 cents per carpule ... plus the needle ... and the gloves at three >cents a pop. > >Joel Knowing where to administer anesthetic.... priceless. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>Isn't that a lot like asking how much a shot of lidocaine costs? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Knowing where to administer anesthetic.... priceless. YUP, old story too ....... >There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >the actual cost (to the dentist)? Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. >>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >>the actual cost (to the dentist)? > > Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. And where did you obtain that information? Which BTW is not correct. You should be careful what you post. >>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >>the actual cost (to the dentist)? > >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. Man I gotta change suppliers ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Man I gotta change suppliers ! There's always chairside http://www.nti-tss.com/fabrication.html >>>>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>>>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There's always chairside http://www.nti-tss.com/fabrication.html Sorry W_B had the wrong Earl in my clipboard--- http://www.nti-tss.com/Cstm-NTI.htm hahahahahahahahaha >>>>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>>>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >There's always chairside http://www.nti-tss.com/fabrication.html I make them chairside, the matrices cost more than $12. Was making a joke. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>>>>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I make them chairside, the matrices cost more than $12. > Was making a joke. Oh I knew you were, and so was I. >>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >>the actual cost (to the dentist)? > >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. Nah, its more than that. > >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. > > Nah, its more than that. How much (approximately)? >> >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. >> >> Nah, its more than that. > > How much (approximately)? What does it matter? Unless you are a licensed dentist you cannot purchase the product, so what do you care what they pay? I gave you the number earlier today to give to your "dentist" friend, he should be able to tell you. >> >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. >> >> Nah, its more than that. > >How much (approximately)? Three times, approximately. Thanks, Joel :-) ! >On 13 Sep 2005 08:05:27 -0700, "letsconnect" <letsconn...@myway.com> >wrote: >>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >>the actual cost (to the dentist)? >Last I heard.. $12.00/unit. Nah, its more than that. Flap's Reply: And if you make it yourself it is less. Flap http://flapsblog.com >>On 13 Sep 2005 08:05:27 -0700, "letsconnect" <letsconn...@myway.com> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Flap That's correct, you can get the chairside step-by-step right off the NTI site and it doesn't cost you a thing. Better off time-wise with the matrix though i am sure. >>On 13 Sep 2005 08:05:27 -0700, "letsconnect" <letsconn...@myway.com> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >And if you make it yourself it is less. This is what we are talking here. You buy the blank, mix up a little acrylic slop in in and watch it while it sets. Alternatively Keller Lab does it for $90. Joel >Flap > >http://flapsblog.com By the TIME that you take an alginate impression and pour up the model I can have one finished and in the mouth using the pre-fab matrix. Add the TIME for construction and the cost of a do-it-yourself NTI becomes quite high. (unless you are sitting around with too much TIME on your hands anyway). It would also take a separate delivery appt. Fawks > And if you make it yourself it is less. > > Flap > By the TIME that you take an alginate impression and pour > up the model I can have one finished and in the mouth [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Flap Just a shot in the dark from left field here... What about making a model of an alginate impression of an NTI; then vaccuforming the model with a plastic sheet (as per temporaries and bleaching tray plastic) and then filling THAT with acrylic? You put that in the mouth, adjust it, etc and pull off the plastic sheet when done. If you keep the NTI model, you could do this ahead of time and have a matrix ready for a cheapie NTI when needed. Not really any more chair time, just more Snap in the matrix. Of course, the disadvantage is that the whole NTI is made of acrylic, with no lexan. Hell: you could even make the acrylic matrix by painting the walls of the impression with acrylic and let it harden. If your impression is in polysiloxane, it would be reusable. Just a shot in left field over the gopher... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > >How much (approximately)? > > Three times, approximately. Just found the price list (it's a bit hidded - http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz question). >> >How much (approximately)? >> >> Three times, approximately. > > Just found the price list (it's a bit hidded - > http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz question). Hooray!!! I'm impressed. > > >How much (approximately)? > > > > Three times, approximately. > > Just found the price list (it's a bit hidded - > http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz question). Much obliged, LC. I wasn't aware of that nti site. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > > > >How much (approximately)? > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > SP 'Cept I've tried it about five times now, and it doesn't work. A Google on the thing turns up nothing. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> > > >How much (approximately)? >> > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 'Cept I've tried it about five times now, and it doesn't work. A Google > on the thing turns up nothing. SP it's the color of this type > http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz > >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > SP it's the color of this type Sorry, I don't understand. Does the above link really work? Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz >> >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sorry, I don't understand. Does the above link really work? of course it does and the pword is " black " (without the quotes) the color of the type ;-) > >> http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz > >> >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of course it does and the pword is " black " (without the quotes) the color > of the type ;-) I mean, if I plug 'www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi' into my browser, it says there is no such link, and if I google it, it says the same. Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > >> http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz > >> >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of course it does and the pword is " black " (without the quotes) the color > of the type ;-) I think I may know why I cannot access this site: if it's USA dentists only, then that may explain why I'm blocked. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply | > >> http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz | > >> >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | | SP I checked it Stove, it works. Our favourite ISP's DNS servers have been acting up this week. You might have to refresh a few times to get it to work. SignatureRoy rem NADA to reply > | I think I may know why I cannot access this site: if it's USA dentists > | only, then that may explain why I'm blocked. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I checked it Stove, it works. Our favourite ISP's DNS servers have been acting > up this week. You might have to refresh a few times to get it to work. OK... Thanks Roy. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >> http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz >> >> >> > question). [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I think I may know why I cannot access this site: if it's USA dentists > only, then that may explain why I'm blocked. that may be the case. have you tried to enter thru the "order" link on the main NTI web page? > > I think I may know why I cannot access this site: if it's USA dentists > > only, then that may explain why I'm blocked. > > that may be the case. have you tried to enter thru the "order" link on the > main NTI web page? No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from Alpha Dental in Toronto. Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> > I think I may know why I cannot access this site: if it's USA dentists >> > only, then that may explain why I'm blocked. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from > Alpha Dental in Toronto. Yes but I didn't realize you were in Canada, so I don't think you have a choice where you can buy them. > No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from > Alpha Dental in Toronto. You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him directly. >> No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from >> Alpha Dental in Toronto. > > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > directly. No he can't. He will need to go through an authorized dealer, and for Canada that is Alpha Dental. > > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > > directly. > > No he can't. He will need to go through an authorized dealer, and for > Canada that is Alpha Dental. Is that some sort of law? >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is that some sort of law? Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't have anything to do with day-to-day sales, he can contact Bob Weber if he would like to, but he will just be referred to Alpha. > Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't have > anything to do with day-to-day sales, he can contact Bob Weber if he would > like to, but he will just be referred to Alpha. Thanks for the clarification (I heard that it was possible to get samples from Jim directly, but that info may be out of date). The reason I'm interested is that for European dentists, it might be cheaper to order from the US directly rather than through the European distributors, but it looks as if that's not possible, judging from the nti-tss website. >> Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't >> have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > distributors, but it looks as if that's not possible, judging from the > nti-tss website. Yes Jim will send a sample kit to those who have never purchased the device before. His e-mail contact is on his website. For europe, they need to buy through their distributor, not from Jim Boyd directly. > Yes Jim will send a sample kit to those who have never purchased the device > before. His e-mail contact is on his website. For europe, they need to buy > through their distributor, not from Jim Boyd directly. Thanks for the info! > >> Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't > >> have [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > before. His e-mail contact is on his website. For europe, they need to buy > through their distributor, not from Jim Boyd directly. I heard that he's gonna sell them in Wal-Mart... ;-) SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >> Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd >> >> doesn't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > ;-) Maybe in China > > Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't have > > anything to do with day-to-day sales, he can contact Bob Weber if he would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > distributors, but it looks as if that's not possible, judging from the > nti-tss website. 'S because Jim Boyd is actually _dead_ just like Paul McCartney is... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> > Law? No, it's how the sales distribution is setup and Dr. Boyd doesn't >> > have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > 'S because Jim Boyd is actually _dead_ just like Paul McCartney is... Yes but you need to play the latest DVD backwards to know for sure. > >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > anything to do with day-to-day sales, he can contact Bob Weber if he would > like to, but he will just be referred to Alpha. 'K... I'll phone Bob Weber and inform him that Tim Dixon ORDERS him to sell me NTI's at a good price from the USA to Kaannnaada.... ;-) ... did NOT.... ... did TOO... .... etc.... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him >> >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > .... etc.... I think it's an issue with the snap monomer and snap resin, but I could be wrong. However i suspect the prices are similar at least for Canada. > I think it's an issue with the snap monomer and snap resin, but I could be > wrong. However i suspect the prices are similar at least for Canada. There _is_ an issue with SNAP. I cannot possibly know why they've decided that it is more dangerous than TRIM or any other ones you may have down thar over your'n.... Sometimes Little Brother hiccups just to let all a youse know he's still there... Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> I think it's an issue with the snap monomer and snap resin, but I could >> be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have down thar over your'n.... Sometimes Little Brother hiccups just to > let all a youse know he's still there... Yeah I know just what you mean... >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him >> > directly. >> >> No he can't. He will need to go through an authorized dealer, and for >> Canada that is Alpha Dental. and Alpha is not the only way for Canadians, he can go to http://www.nti-tss.ca > >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and Alpha is not the only way for Canadians, he can go to > http://www.nti-tss.ca Never thought of that ... thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and Alpha is not the only way for Canadians, he can go to > http://www.nti-tss.ca .... and down the bottom of that page it says: Distributed exclusively in Canada by Alpha Dental Supplies E-mail: info@nti-tss.ca ... and so,,,, the Pipe sticks his tongue out at Tim.... ;-) SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >> > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him >> >> > directly. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ... and so,,,, the Pipe sticks his tongue out at Tim.... ;-) Yes because Alpha is the distributor. Bulk Kit - Standard 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures Code: IM6866 $1279.95 whats that work out to in US dollars? > Bulk Kit - Standard > 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures > Code: IM6866 > $1279.95 > whats that work out to in US dollars? $12.79 Vaughn >> Bulk Kit - Standard >> 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > $12.79 Then SP would be well advised to buy Canadian ;-) > >> Bulk Kit - Standard > >> 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Then SP would be well advised to buy Canadian ;-) CANADIAN???!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?! That has got to be the positively WORST BEER ever INVENTeD..... It is little more than cold cow p*ss........ OTOH, I'm not a beer drinker at all: maybe three or four per year... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >> Bulk Kit - Standard >> >> 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > OTOH, I'm not a beer drinker at all: maybe three or four per year... Maybe Canadian whiskey? > > Bulk Kit - Standard > > 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Vaughn 12.7995 to be precice.... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> Bulk Kit - Standard >> 24 Devices, 24 Holders, 24 Patient Brochures, 50 Office Brochures [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Vaughn Gotta love that exchange rate. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Yes because Alpha is the distributor. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > whats that work out to in US dollars? Don't know... I do know that the markup is way out of proportion to what it is for all- a youse down there, though.... Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > >> No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from > >> Alpha Dental in Toronto. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No he can't. He will need to go through an authorized dealer, and for > Canada that is Alpha Dental. Yes I CAN... No you CAN'T... etc... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > > No.... Maybe I should do to compare prices. I usually order them from > > Alpha Dental in Toronto. > > You could try contacting Jim Boyd and see if you can order off him > directly. Roy suggeted that to me way back when. I think that may be a better idea. Thanks to both. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply These are useful when the doctor does not pay his electric bill .... or when he always wanted to own a disco ...... 24 Glow in the dark patient device holders Item # 19 Quantity: Item Price: $10.00 >> >How much (approximately)? >> >> Three times, approximately. > >Just found the price list (it's a bit hidded - >http://www.migraine-nti.com/access.cgi , then answer the quiz question). I guess it's better than a "glow in the dark" NTI. > These are useful when the doctor does not pay his electric bill .... > or when he always wanted to own a disco ...... > 24 Glow in the dark patient device holders > Item # 19 > Quantity: > Item Price: $10.00 Either way ,, scary. What are Glow-in-the-dark-patients though? Joel >I guess it's better than a "glow in the dark" NTI. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> Quantity: >> Item Price: $10.00 > Either way ,, scary. > > What are Glow-in-the-dark-patients though? Those are NTI patients that live to close to a nuclear facility. All the NTI patients in San Clemente, CA, glow-in-the-dark. >There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >the actual cost (to the dentist)? The prices vary depending on what you buy.. The migraine kit price tops the list Note that it includes 12 standard devices, so the unit price is ~$46 . There are 24 devices total so that the unit price, if you used them all, is ~$23 Daytime kit has 10 devices so the unit price is ~$21 I don't know why you can't get a straight answer here, I suspect because the mark up is ~ 200 to 800% based on your quoted price range. This 'mark up' is based on material alone, and does not account for the skilled labor or overhead needed to maintiain a dental practice HTH --G ~~~~~ ref http://www.migraine-nti.com/products.cgi?action=md5_display_true Migraine Kit Item # 60 (NEW ASSORTMENT - Same Number of Devices) 12 Standard Devices, 6 Reduced Vertical Max Devices, 6 Incisal Guidance Devices, 2 Standard-Wide Devices, 2 Universal/Slidebar Devices, 8 Daytime Devices, 36 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 25 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 25 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures, 1 NTI-TSS Users Guide, Order Form Quantity: Item Price: $560.00 Daytime Kit Item # 92 10 Daytime Devices, 10 Glow in the Dark Boxes, 10 "Important Patient Information" Pamphlets, 1 Introductory and Educational CD-Rom, Packet of 10 Migraine Waiting Room Brochures, Order Form Quantity: Item Price: $212.00 >>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is >>the actual cost (to the dentist)? >Daytime kit has 10 devices so the unit price is ~$21 >... the mark up is ~ 200 to 800% based on your quoted price range. That last line should read 10 to 40 times material cost >>>There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >>>retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >That last line should read 10 to 40 times material cost Cost of materials ~$20 - 50 Knowing where and when to place materials.... priceless -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Cost of materials ~$20 - 50 > >Knowing where and when to place materials.... priceless We agree... that's why I said it does not include the price of the skilled labor or the overhead to maintain an office. --G A big thanks to everyone who has posted helpful answers in this thread. He's going for it! |
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