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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005NTI cost
There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is the actual cost (to the dentist)? > There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device > retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is > the actual cost (to the dentist)? Nowadays around $420,000.00, but a little higher on the coasts. carabelli >but how much is > the actual cost (to the dentist)? Counting the time required to research it, study it, learn it properly, practice doing it until proficient, buying the material, buying the matrix and paying for copyright, plus office time, about $400 each. Add in the time spent going to school to get a diploma so one can legally place these devices, and the time spent building the practice to the point where the dentist is earning more than Burger King wages, then the cost of each one would be 3-4 times higher. Amatus / >> There has been a previous thread discussing how much the NTI device >> retails for to the patient (anything from $200-$800), but how much is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > carabelli I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. >I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. The matrix is far cheaper than the lab bill to have a "Horseshoe" made. However, one needs to consider taking enough time to learn to do it properly. The final cost per unit has to include time spent learning to do it, just like implants, RCT, surgery, etc.  Signature/ Amatus / >I was asking because I wanted to recommend it to a dentist who's > interested in TMJ, but he's worried that it's too expensive. I doubt > he'd be interested if the cost to the dentist is $400 per device. >The final cost per unit has to include time spent learning to do >it, just like implants, RCT, surgery, etc. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Just like surgery? Learning to place an nti is like learning surgery? You should practically give it away! WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile joint. You are the bulls in the temporomandibular china shop! ******* >WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >******* Hm? I was under the impression that TMJ/TMD was stress-related? What's the story? (I haven't followed previous discussions on this topic, so forgive me for my ignorance) >>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Hm? I was under the impression that TMJ/TMD was stress-related? Alright. "tmd" is stress related: The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular joint. -> "TMD" Reread the above HOW. My point is that for this reason nti should practically be given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the wearer, $125. >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the > wearer, $125. Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. What's wrong with it? >>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > What's wrong with it? Ok, define what "tmd" is. >> What's wrong with it? > >Ok, define what "tmd" is. Trancend Mental Dentication ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> What's wrong with it? >> >>Ok, define what "tmd" is. > > Trancend Mental Dentication ? Thats about as close as one could get I think. > >> What's wrong with it? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Actually, that's not bad..... I have some-a those kind-a patients SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Ok, define what "tmd" is. You're asking me to answer something I already wrote. uh.. that would be in the "disrupted function of temporomandibular joint" line, above, if you re-read what I wrote. Even better than giving the definition, I give the cause. You gave one example of something that makes 'TMD' symptoms worse. Not the cause. ;-) Fawks >>Ok, define what "tmd" is. > Even better than giving the definition, I give the cause. > You gave one example of something that makes > 'TMD' symptoms worse. Not the cause. What is the cause? Bruxism? >My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >wearer, $125. When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >wearer, $125. When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. -- W_B Flap's Reply: And establish your own business/practice. Flap http://flapsblog.com >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And establish your own business/practice. Fawks has it right. >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Fawks has it right. Fawks has what right? I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. If I can get a clencher (undergoing treatment for other procedures) to wear an NTI, everything is going to be smoother. I have fewer phone calls for post-op pain, fewer temporaries knocked off, more patients that think I'm pretty damn good, etc. I'd rather do 100 NTI's a year for $150 than 10 for $400. If a dentist is in a position where they can do 100 for $400 though, I'm not going to complain. It is a very valuable device. Fawks >>Fawks has it right. > > Fawks has what right? Thats what I thought you would say and I think you have it figured out as well as anybody that the NTI has more value to both doctor and patient than the dollar cost. It all comes down to the individual practice doesn't it? Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really based on what the medical insurance will pay. I believe the national average right now for a chairside NTI is around 450$ And in the end, it's still your license that is on the line. > I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes > just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Fawks has what right? >Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really based >on what the medical insurance will pay. I believe the national average >right now for a chairside NTI is around 450$ And in the end, it's still >your license that is on the line. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What does this last part mean? Lose license how? Lose license for charging less than a set price? Then price set by whom? >> I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes >> just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >>> >>> Fawks has what right? >>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>based [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lose license for charging less than a set price? > Then price set by whom? No one said anything about losing a license, you are out of context and putting words in my mouth. >>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>based [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >No one said anything about losing a license, you are out of context and >putting words in my mouth. Okay, then what does "in the end, it's still your license that is on the line" mean? >>>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>>based [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Okay, then what does "in the end, it's still your license that is on > the line" mean? It means just what it says. Believe me, SWF knows what I meant even if you don't, and thats all that matters. >>>>>Example, if all you see are migraine patients then the price is really >>>>>based [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >It means just what it says. Believe me, SWF knows what I meant even if you >don't, and thats all that matters. Oh yeah, I get it. Does not bother me. Not at all. > What does this last part mean? Lose license how? > Lose license for charging less than a set price? > Then price set by whom? In our own case, it's the price that has been figured by the CPA. Some treatments chez-nous are more $$$ than chez our neighbors, but most are less. It really depends on what the practice does to earn its living. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I think that is in reference to my widespread, low-fee (sometimes > just thrown in with a treatment plan) use of NTI's. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fawks I see nothing wrong with this position EXCEPT: Do the patients really APPRECIATE a device so inexpensive? Will they therefore not just let it fall by the wayside after a few months? Do insurance companies treat the NTI at that price as a real treatment or a gimmick and refuse to pay? If _I_ were a moderately motivated patient, I might not want to tough out the adaptation period if I knew that I only paid 150$ for it. If I paid 300$ for it, the motivation would be higher, I'm sure. As it is, we have a sliding scale of payment, and often the payments are in installments with post dated cheques. I'm not sitting at the front desk very often, but even so, I have yet to hear a patient who has learned to wear the NTI properly complain about its price. OTOH, we don't ever charge over 350$, and that is for someone who comes in specifically for that and needs nothing else. JMO SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> Fawks has it right. > >Fawks has what right? Fawks has it right, and SP, if you read the thread. >>> Fawks has it right. >> >>Fawks has what right? > > Fawks has it right, and SP, if you read the thread. Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how much they bill insurance. >>>> Fawks has it right. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how >much they bill insurance. So? >>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So? So ask them. >>>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >So ask them. What an @-hole! It's none of my business. For all I know, none. You don't know either. >>>>>>> Fawks has it right. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It's none of my business. > For all I know, none. You don't know either. No i don't know, but it's not 15 bucks. It will be based on what the insurance company will pay if it's billed to medical as it should be. But it's not 15 bucks. Get it???????????? > Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how > much they bill insurance. I have seen quite a few, but I *DO NOT* want to develop a practice where I would see several each day! Some migraine patients are easy to treat and receptive to the NTI therapy. Others argue, quote their physician, their neurologist, their spouse, their friend, stuff they found on the web, and are just PITA's. "Their migraines are different" "I need to get a shot when they hit me" The thought that they are doing this to themselves is too frightening to consider and a little piece of plastic is way too simple for the complexities of their condition. $1,000 would not be enough for some of these. JME, Fawks >> Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how >> much they bill insurance. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > JME, > Fawks Thanx for the honest answer and opinion Steve. I didn't expect anything less from you. TD > >>> Fawks has it right. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ask Fawks and SP how many medically dx migraine patients they see and how > much they bill insurance. As of today, 22 Sept 2005, 20h30 (PM) I've seen exactly... none. It is all the more frustrating in that I personally went to see each Mad Dog that shared the waiting room with me (before they retired) and I told them about the treatment and how it could help. I did not get ONE reference. .... Gang of immature children..... It _IS_ part of our Medical/Dental Questoinnaire though. And I _do_ insist on palpating the patients' head/neck/shoulder muscles the first time I see them. Not many believe me, and I just say: 'Very Well: when you're tired of enduring that pain and stiffness, we'll talk again.' Don't forget I'm in the poor end of Quebec..... This is the land of: don't put off 'till tomorrow what you can put off 'till only the specialist can fix it... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >-- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >http://flapsblog.com No thanks. Common sense is enough. Let's face it. Fitting an nti is not brain surgery or even implant surgery. It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco that one can learn to fit via cd. Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is egregious. >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. >>-- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is > egregious. Really, what CD would that be? > It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >> that one can learn to fit via cd. >> Gouging people for this kind of therapuetic device is >> egregious. > >Really, what CD would that be? Dark Side of the Moon. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >>> that one can learn to fit via cd. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dark Side of the Moon. BRAIN DAMAGE The lunatic is on the grass The lunatic is on the grass Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs Got to keep the loonies on the path The lunatic is in the hall The lunatics are in my hall The paper holds their folded faces to the floor And every day the paper boy brings more And if the dam breaks open many years too soon And if there is no room upon the hill And if your head explodes with dark forbodings too I'll see you on the dark side of the moon The lunatic is in my head The lunatic is in my head You raise the blade, you make the change you re-arrange me 'till I'm sane You lock the door And throw away the key There's someone in my head but it's not me And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear You shout and no one seems to hear And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes I'll see you on the dark side of the moon. >>> It's a low cost/unit little plastic taco >>>> that one can learn to fit via cd. >>>Really, what CD would that be? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The lunatic is on the grass Poor Sid. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > BRAIN DAMAGE > > The lunatic is on the grass > The lunatic is on the grass > Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs > Got to keep the loonies on the path Well FU*K all that, we gotta get on with THIS.... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>My point is that for this reason nti should practically be >>given away! like breath mints on the way out of a restaurant! >>or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the >>wearer, $125. > >When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. I don't have to have a dental degree to have an opinion. >-- >W_B [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >http://flapsblog.com >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > >I don't have to have a dental degree to have an opinion. > >>-- >>W_B Opinions are like a**holes -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Everybody has one? You appreciate your own but think others stink? Dan probably has more options. Fawks > Opinions are like a**holes > -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>When you get your dental degree you can decide what to charge. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Opinions are like a**holes > -- .... One day, all of the parts of the body were discussing who should be boss. The eyes said that since with out him, the body could not see, he should be boss. The legs said that since without him, the body could not move forward, he should be boss. The brain, of course tried to dazzle them with his elegant logic, and terminated three hours later, saying that therefore, he should be boss. The stomach, the intestines, the heart, the feet; all the important parts stated their cases. - Then the a.shole applied for the job. - The other parts of the body almost killed them selves laughing- so much so that the a.shole became mad and closed up. After a few days, the brain went foggy, the eyes crossed, the leggs wobbled, and all the other parts started to go awray. After a couple more days of this, the other parts relented and pronounced that the a.shole could be boss. -What does this mean?- That one does not have to be smart, clear- and far-sighted, strong, fast, or any of a million other attributes to be boss. -One just has to be an a.shole._ S P SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > Reread the above HOW. Do you have internet access under your bridge? Signature/ Amatus / > >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > or AT THE VERY MOST, closer to its original price to the > wearer, $125. >Do you have internet access under your bridge? Do you? >>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of >>force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >>joint. You are bulls in the temporomandibular china shop! >>Do you have internet access under your bridge? > >Do you? Only on the lower right 3-unit. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >joint. -> "TMD" So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental procedures, rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching or grinding? I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? Or are you saying RCT actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? *confused* >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > *confused* So then what is TMJ? Seems like that's what is being implied. Dental treatment is 'no big deal' for 'normal' patients. Patients who have joint issues can have significant pain after a long appointment. The dental treatment does not cause the condition, but it can cause symptoms to go from 'mild & sub clinical' to 'it hurts bad'. It's easy to see how these patients sometimes do not understand their condition. They cruise along for months without significant pain that they attribute to their TMJ's. Sit in a dental chair for an hour getting a few fillings, crown, or root canal, and can hardly open their jaw the next morning. For them, dental treatment seems to be the cause of their pain. JMO, Fawks > So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental > procedures, rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > *confused* >>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >procedures, no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >or grinding? the mechanical disruption is primary, the other symptoms you describe are secondary - are symptoms of mechanical disruption. >I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. >Or are you saying RCT >actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj >*confused* I'm still saying what I already said: >HOW? by applying abnormal amounts and directions of >force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >joint. >The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, >disrupts the functioning of the delicate temporomandibular >joint. -> "TMD" And for this reason, they will do better in the long run to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. > No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj Llort, inversion syndrome Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>WHy? because as a group you CAUSE "TMJ",TMD". [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. > And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. >>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>procedures, > >no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. What force ? >>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>or grinding? > >the mechanical disruption is primary, the other symptoms you describe >are secondary - are symptoms of mechanical disruption. Untrue. >>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? > >No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. False. >>Or are you saying RCT >>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? > >No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj Again, untrue. >>*confused* > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>force for abnormal periods of time to a fragile >>joint. Ahh Ha, now you have hit the nail. You have stumbled upon the definition of parafunction. >>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to not gouge, for the $12 therapuetic device. >And as someone else mentioned, it could end up in wal-mart. It's not $12. Just for the sake of argument: Materials........$30 Knowing where and when to place materials ....................$200 - 500 It's about diagnosis. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side which results in "parafunction". >>>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>>or grinding? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Untrue. True. (I'm right ;) >>>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? >> >>No. I don't think so. Not necessarily. >> >False. Not False. >>>Or are you saying RCT >>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? >> >>No. a procedure such as rct CAN cause tmj >> >Again, untrue. True. >>>*confused* >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Ahh Ha, now you have hit the nail. >You have stumbled upon the definition of parafunction. Parafunction is caused by: >>>The "MECHANICAL STRESS", the TRAUMA of dental procedures, >>>esp time consuming molar jobs or rct dam, for instance, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Knowing where and when to place materials >....................$200 - 500 In the UK they know for $15. Jim knows for free during a seminar. Some dentists know for no charge, or break even w/the idea that the device protects their work, makes their job easier and creates priceless good will. Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious particularly since as a class dentists cause tmd. Sure, I know - a person can charge what he wants. People can also choose where to go. >It's about diagnosis. tmd is easy to diagnose. nti is a simple device. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side >which results in "parafunction". Assumes facts not in evidence, onset of parafunction is idiopathic. >>>>rather than as a result of (oftentimes stress-induced) clenching >>>>or grinding? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >True. (I'm right ;) Sorry, you are wrong. >>>>I would have thought that, unless you suffer with TMJ symptoms >>>>anyway, you'd recover pretty quickly after RCT? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Not False. Yep, false. >>>>Or are you saying RCT >>>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >True. Absolutely not. >>>>*confused* >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious particularly >since as a class dentists cause tmd. Again, parafuntion is idiopathic. Your opinion stinks just like that other thang. > Sure, I know - >a person can charge what he wants. People can also >choose where to go. Greed is wanting something for nothing. Get yourself to the UK, and see how you fare there. >>It's about diagnosis. > >tmd is easy to diagnose. No it actually is not. >nti is a simple device. NTI is a very well though out and designed device. It took years to develop. Elegant ? Maybe. Simple ? Not a chance. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Assumes facts not in evidence, onset of parafunction is >idiopathic. I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just laid out a logical explanation of the cause. >>True. (I'm right ;) >> >Sorry, you are wrong. right. >>>>>Or are you saying RCT >>>>>actually causes *permanent* TMJ?? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Absolutely not. It is so. >>>>>*confused* >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >Again, parafuntion is idiopathic. No. Mechanical origin as already explained. >Your opinion stinks just like that other thang. Same to you. >> Sure, I know - >>a person can charge what he wants. People can also >>choose where to go. > >Greed is wanting something for nothing. >Get yourself to the UK, and see how you fare there. In the UK some people got their ntis for $15 Some dentists here charge little for an nti. How does it follow that I should go to the UK??? >>>It's about diagnosis. >> >>tmd is easy to diagnose. > >No it actually is not. Not hard to recognize. >>nti is a simple device. >> >NTI is a very well though out and designed device. >It took years to develop. > >Elegant ? Maybe. Simple ? Not a chance. Ask Jim Boyd if the device is simple. >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just >laid out a logical explanation of the cause. Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction is unknown. Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. How do you explain that ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >is unknown. Not to me. >Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. >How do you explain that ? Depends. I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only women, beginning around thirties, I thought. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >is unknown. > > Not to me. Llort eht deef ton od esealp. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction >>is unknown. >> >> Not to me. > >Llort eht deef ton od esealp. Done. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >Ignores years of scientific research, cause of parafunction > >is unknown. > > > > Not to me. > > Llort eht deef ton od esealp. .pots ll'I ,KO SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >>>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only > women, beginning around thirties, I thought. Thats the problem, you thought. >> Depends. >> I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only >> women, beginning around thirties, I thought. > >Thats the problem, you thought. Tried to think is probably closer to the mark. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> Depends. >>> I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > W_B Yeah I think you are correct. >>Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. >>How do you explain that ? > >Depends. >I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only >women, beginning around thirties, I thought. That's what you get for thinking. Though it is debatable that you think at all. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > >>>>duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not to me. Then, Min, a Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine awaits you. > >Even small children clench/grind in their sleep. > >How do you explain that ? > > Depends. > I've never seen evidence of this. Mostly, but not only > women, beginning around thirties, I thought. What?!?!?!?! Min!!!!!!!: you must treat clenching and grinding from about TWELVE years old up to and through adulthood. Thirty years old is oodles of time to have damaged teeth/joints/muscles. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I don't believe parafunction is idiopathic since I have just > laid out a logical explanation of the cause. Llort -- just ask Leonardo Di Vinci Signature/ Amatus / > >>>Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* > disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side > which results in "parafunction". Llort -- in reverse proportion Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >>Take out the G'RBAGE >>wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious My fee is $250. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious > >My fee is $250. I know. I read that before. >-- > >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >Charging $750, IN MY OPINION is egregious > > My fee is $250. And you undoubtedly collect it 'egregious-ly', I sure... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply W_B writed furst: > >What force ? > > Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual > duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* > disrupts the structure of the temporomandibular joint on either side > which results in "parafunction" No, Min: you would not let the dentist injure you like that. You are not sleeping during these procedures. SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? To be more specific, jamming the mandible backward and/or laterally disrupt, where normally FORWARD (mandible forward on the person) and chin staying on the midline are better. >>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >forward on the person) and chin staying on the midline are >better. What the heck are you talking about ? What you describe sounds like a boxing match. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>>>procedures, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >What you describe sounds like a boxing match. Whats so unclear? mandible: lateral, backward movement - avoid non-lateral, forward movement - good Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. >W_B >Take out the G'RBAGE >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during >>>>>>dental [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, > or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims tmd exists and i'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It ain't gonna happen sister. > No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims > tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets > have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It isn't gonna > happen sister. I know what TMD is. TMD = Tim M. Dixon I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>>>>>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > have him/her explain exactly what it is since you can't. It ain't gonna > happen sister. >> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims >> tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. Very good.. but even I don't know what the "M" stands for. >> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that claims >> tmd exists and I'll eat my hat if you find one. If you do find one lets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. 'Mighty' -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > 'Mighty' hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a simple "G" >TMD = Tim M. Dixon > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. > > 'Mighty' Actually -- TMD = Ti M Dixon Signature/ Amatus / > >>>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > simple "G" >>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Actually -- TMD = Ti M Dixon Hey thats pretty good. >>>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a >simple "G" G = Goodman ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that > >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > simple "G" That's a pity: 'Come-on without.... Come-on within... You've not seen nothin' like the MIGHTY Tim...' ;-) SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that >> >>> claims [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > MIGHTY Tim...' ;-) > SP Hey I love that song, of course I love all Dylan songs.. > >> hahaha thats pretty good, but unfortunately my middle initial is just a > >> simple "G" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hey I love that song, of course I love all Dylan songs.. I prefer the Manfred Mann version, myself... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >TMD = Tim M. Dixon > >I never could figure out what the "M" stood for. > > 'Mighty' Magnificent ! Signature/ Amatus / > >>> No such thing as tmd. Sorry. Find one dentist in this group that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>TMD = Tim M. Dixon >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Magnificent ! Now the Mrs. might say that ;-) >>What the heck are you talking about ? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mandible: >lateral, backward movement - avoid So, don't chew, right ? Dumb. >non-lateral, forward movement - good Even dumber. >Anyway, no doubt boxing matches have resulted in tmd too, >or...maybe not since they wear those arches to stabilize. Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to > enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. West Marine stocks lots of the supplies you would need. Signature/ Amatus / > >>>What the heck are you talking about ? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Since you know so little about this subject, I refuse to >> enter into a war of words with an unarmed opponent. > >West Marine stocks lots of the supplies you would need. Indeed. It appears that my immediate need would be a 'hook-out' <g> -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>>What the heck are you talking about ? >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >Even dumber. You have missed the point. What I am referring to here, what we were discussing, is the *force applied by the operator during a dental procedure*. >>So you're saying that TMJ is caused by keeping your mouth open during dental >>>procedures, >> >>no. not just keeping mouth open, but force. >> >What force ? >-Unusual amounts and directions of force for an unusual >-duration of time *applied by the operator during a procedure.* Hardly relates to chewing, now does it? Or maybe I am mistaken and they have meals and rct simultaneously time at your place? >>So, don't chew, right ? >>Dumb. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >What I am referring to here, what we were discussing, >is the *force applied by the operator during a dental procedure*. It is you that have missed the point. What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm while preparing #20 for a DO ? Gorilla-fist dentists are a rare species. -- W_B wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Take out the G'RBAGE >What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm >while preparing #20 for a DO ? Why? At x lbs of pressre in y direction for z time the garage door gets unhinged? not necessary. Knowing which directions to avoid is useful! as I already mentioned, that is something I suppose is taught in dental college, I'm surprised if it is not. C'mon. Let's face it. It is so obvious that during big time consuming dental procedures, and when using a dam there is tremendous strain on the joint. It's undeniable, it is far outside the normal use of the "tm system". "Parafunction" is simply the bodies attempt, via musculature to correct the disrupted "disc assembly", the unhinged garage door. The "tm system" is particularly susceptible because it is a fragile complex system, a fragile, complex "closed system" I would call it. The side by side graphic says a lot. I'm not so sure it's *only a psa block* paralyzing the ipsilateral LP that is causing an imalance in opening efforts. http://www.nti-tss.com/TM-Animated-Tuorial/Unilater-LP-activity.html >Gorilla-fist dentists are a rare species. Apes in lab coats? Some have lighter hands, some have heavy hands. >-- >W_B > >wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Take out the G'RBAGE >>What is the force applied to the mandible by a 245 @ 200k+ rpm >>while preparing #20 for a DO ? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > is a fragile complex system, a fragile, complex "closed system" > I would call it. Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive without masticating. Period Acute trauma can occur when access is needed for dental procedures. If the existing TMJ anatomy is already stressed from previous parafunction the patient is more likely to have problems from acute trauma. And acute trauma from any source can disrupt TMJ function, however I am not aware of trauma inducing parafunctional activity. If you are, please provide us with some peer reviewed evidence. You are totally off base. Are you a dentist? How long have you been practicing? carabelli > Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive > without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > inducing parafunctional activity. If you are, please provide us with some > peer reviewed evidence. That's the way I understood it as well. What's the actual cause of parafunction, though? >> Nope, parafunction is when the masticatory system goes into overdrive >> without masticating. Period [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > What's the actual cause of parafunction, though? 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. 2. Why this is the response - I don't have a clue. For some people playing with a string of beads, etc will provide a physical activity that alleviates to some extent the mental stress that (acknowledged or not) exists. For some reason unknown to me, unusual and/or certainly unnecessary physical activity (clenching) is an involuntary response to stress levels that may affect one individual and may not affect the next. 3. If you do not exercise on a regular basis you should. Why, because I said so. If that doesn't make sense - go back to # 1 carabelli > 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for > *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > activity (clenching) is an involuntary response to stress levels that may > affect one individual and may not affect the next. Ain't that the truuuth: When I'm takin' out a tooth on a medically compromized elder lady, and I DON'T wanna see it break, and she's waited until there's no lingual left on the tooth, and so I have to force the beaks WAY subgingival to find something to grab onto, and I only have 20 minutes to do this,,,, I catch myself CLENCHIN' my teeth real good... and then I berate myself for concentratin' on my clenching instead of the tooth, and then I refocus on the tooth, and this goes round and round a few times.... ... And if that happens more'n once a week, I've got my NIGHTTIME NTI in place, and I'm bitin' on it but good.... .... and I don't care if they can't understand what I'm sayin'.... ... And if they ask why, I tell them that over your'n, in the US of A, people TAKE CARE of their teeth and they don't wait till the last minute to get a tooth out if that's what is necessary. And I tell them that I know dentists who charge what the xray says the tooth is: simple or complex compared with the bone, even if the dentist was able to take it out as a simple extraction. .... And I tell them I want them to heal up and come back to get the rest of the mouth looked at because I don't want them having problems with their teeth as well as their heart.... or they can go get treated in a hospital milieu where all bets are covered.... and so is the $$$$ thay they will pay.... .... and THEN, and ONLY then, do I take out my NTI. .... and I take off my helmet and my seatbelt, ... and my O2 mask.... Because if the tooth breaks, it is NOT my fault, and they will have to come back some other time.... .... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... .... and meanwhile my staff steal my Big Mac Trio lunch and my extra Mountain Dew... .... and the petty cash money... ... and I stare thoughtfully into the distant sky.... .... and CLENCH summore.... <....the Pipe bursts out crying into his iBook....> <.... and the sparks start flyin'.....> HAVE A FRIGGIN' NICE DAY!!!!!!!!! :-/ SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >.... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... You stop anticoagulant therapy? Amatus >> 1. without reference to evidence based research - this is a response for >> *some* when mental stress is added to the equation. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >SP .. Amatus . First, the Pipe whined: > >.... and have to stop their Coumadin AGAIN..... > > You stop anticoagulant therapy? > > Amatus For extractions, I ask that the Mad Dogs do, yes. I ask them to bring the patient into a clotting in 10-15 minutes range. That usually means reducing and not eliminating the dose. I don't usually touch it for anything else. If all they're taking is aspirin, I don't stop that. Usually put Surgicel in the alveolus, and send them to the waiting room biting on a wet tea bag and with an ice pack on and off for thirty minutes. They resume normal medication the next morning. Of course, this has to be tempered with the clinical situation. If the teeth are fairly mobile, periodontally involved, I may not touch the Coumadin at _all_. Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for extractions? SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for >extractions? Normally I do not stop the medication if they can clot at all. Rather than ask the physician to stop the medication I prefer to ask for a bleeding time test. I would prefer the socket bleeds for an extra 45 minutes over the patient having a stroke. Amatus >First, the Pipe whined: >> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >SP .. Amatus . > >Are you telling me you _don't_ ever turn off the Coumadin for > >extractions? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Amatus OK, I can accept that. Where do you get your bleeding time? Or do you do it yourself wit |
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