Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005
It's Time For A WAKE UP CALL!
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LadyLollipop - 12 Sep 2005 07:37 GMT Some of you seem to thing this subject is funny, it is NOT! I did a bit of searching, this is from previous posts, some do not have the URL's.
http://tinyurl.com/abwro
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/00n_1665/00N-1665-EC-07.html
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html
Trigeminal neuralgia linked to amalgam fillings JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA. Dr. William Cheshire, a physician at the Mayo Clinic, reports on a case where a woman's trigeminal neuralgia (tic douloureux) was traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery". The jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve. Replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown. Cheshire, William P., Jr. The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia. New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 (correspondence)
Ortendahl TW, Hogstedt P & Holland RP. Mercury vapor release from dental amalgam in vitro caused by magnetic fields generated by CRT's and electrical cutting procedures. Swed Dent J 1991 p 31 Abstract 22
ABSTRACT: "People working in front of a cathode-ray tube screen (CRT) and who report they are negatively affected, sometimes complain about symptoms often related to "Oral galvanism". Another group of workers, occupationally exposed to magnetic fields, are divers, welding and cutting electrically under water. It has been repoerted (Ortendahl et.
al. J. Undersea Biomed Res 1988;15:443-456) that the magnetic field flux density intraoraly at a certain current and with a specific distance relation between the oral cavity and the electric cord was 1.12 mT with a specific frequency spectra. Exposure of amalgam specimens to a magnetic field with 1.15 mT (50 Hz) caused and chemical
changes on the surfaces of the dental amalgams. Therefore, the aim of the study was to analyze if work in front of a CRT-screen would have any influence on the mercury vapor release from dental amalgam. The aim was also to analyze if a magnetic field with a complex frequency spectra and a flux density of 1.15 mT would influence the mercury vapor release. Materials and Methods: 5 CRT-screens were selected as sources for the magnetic field exposure. The criterias for the selection of screens were: 1 occurring frequently in swedish officies,
2. compensated and uncompensated screens with respect to the magnetic fields. From three types of dental amalgams, representative to swedish
dentistry, cylindrical amalgam specimens were prepared and were immersed in artificial saliva in an electrolytic cell. The electrolytic cells were located exactly in front of the CRT-screens with a distance amalgam - CRT-screen of 50 cm during 6 hours. On a specific electrolytic cell, coils were adapted and supplied with a current to the electrical cutting situation. The created field had a complex frequency spectra in order to create a more realistic simulation of the in vivo situation than the earlier used 50 Hz field.
The mercury vapor release (Hg0) was registered continously and were determined by a gold-foil mercury vapor analyzer (Jerome 411). As control served amalgam specimens, not exposed to a magnetic field but immersed in the artificial saliva and a reference group which were not exposed to either the magnetic fields or artificial saliva.
Results and Conclusion: 2 of the CRT-screens significantly increased the mercury vapor release from all three types of amalgam. One of these two screens were compensated and one were uncompensated. The magnetic fields which were supposed to simulate the electrical cutting situation did not cause any increased mercury vapor release. The study was supported by The Swedish Work Environmental fund."
Newsgroups: alt.health.dental-amalgam, sci.physics.electromag, sci.med.dentistry From: Jim Barron <jdbar...@cphl.mindspring.com> - Find messages by this author Date: 1997/09/22 Subject: Re: Amalgam in EM field Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original
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Harry H Conover wrote:
> p...@tcp.co.uk wrote: > : > : Wrong. In a word, yes... its *possible*.....
> But not probable...
> : Ortendahl TW, Hogstedt P & Holland RP. Mercury vapor release from > : dental amalgam in vitro caused by magnetic fields generated by CRT's > : and electrical cutting procedures. Swed Dent J 1991 p 31 Abstract 22 > : > : ABSTRACT: "People working in front of a cathode-ray tube screen (CRT) > : and who report they are negatively affected, sometimes complain about > : symptoms often related to "Oral galvanism". Another group of workers, > : occupationally exposed to magnetic fields, are divers, welding and > : cutting electrically under water.
> Doesn't it seem strange that this phenomenon has not been reported or > observed by those working around really strong fields? Things like > power distribution substantion, nuclear particle accelerators, or > similar situations in comparison to which exposure to the stray > magnetic fields from CRT deflection yokes as the like would be...ah... > more or less insignificant? Actually it doesn't seem strange at all: Since no one has apparently scientificly studied this effect, your idea that the effect should be linearly related to the strength of the EMF field is ONLY a **conjecture**. Many biological effects are NOT linear and, without scientific experiments or good theoretical basis for believeing that the effect IS linear (or at least steadily increasing) the "jury is still out". I *DO* know that I DO have currents in my teeth (measured at up to 400 mV) and that they are very strongly affected by magnetic fields (on of the reasons I have been so absent from this group is that I have been unable to sit in front of my CRT monitor for more than a very short period without severe problems from the currents in my teeth (which problems markedly reduced each time a quadrant of fillings was removed - only one left to go!)
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> : It has been repoerted (Ortendahl et. > : al. J. Undersea Biomed Res 1988;15:443-456) that the magnetic field > : flux density intraoraly at a certain current and with a specific > : distance relation between the oral cavity and the electric cord was > : 1.12 mT with a specific frequency spectra.
> [snip]
> It's nice to see that research is being done. Since I don't have any > access to this paper [even at the MIT library], would it be possible > for your to post that portion of this paper addressing experimental > error analysis (noise bars) and, reflecting the content of that error > analysis, the statistical significance of this work?
> Pardon me for being a skeptic, but the thought does occur that the > magnetic field resulting from a computer monitor (unless it is one > of incredibly poor design) is many orders of magnetude less than > the ambient electromagnetic field characteristics of the environment > in which that computer monitor is typically located. This is precisely > why monitor design focuses on protecting the monitor functioning from > the effects of the environment, and not the converse. This is grossly oversimplistic. EMFs have many important properties OTHER than just strength (frequency, variable or constant, etc.) any of which could possibly be just as, or even more, important than mere strength.
> This would, of course, not be the case if you were running your computer > from a DC battery pack on an isolated mountain peak in the Andes, in which > case the computer monitor just might be the prime contributor to the EM > environment. Interestingly enough I can work at my PORTABLE computer (which has a liquid crystal display, hence no CRT tube (and no variable EMF)) for many hours a day for days on end with NO problems whatsoever. But a few hours in front of a CRT tube would be devestating (FORGET about sleeping!)
Short of this somewhat idealistic situation, ED radiation
> from the computer monitor is totally lost in the backgound noise (at > least from galvanic action considerations.) If this is SO (and my experience indicates that you are just GUESSING (incorrectly!) on this one) perhaps you could explain why the hairs on the back of my hand stick straigt out when they get near my monitor? And they DON'T in the same area when the monitor is off?
> Sorry, I just don't buy it! You have, or course, a right to your OPINION. But an opinion with NOTHING to back it up means little.
If you believe your computer monitor is the
> source of your health problems, the problem is a personal, internal one, > and not something to be blamed on technology. Perhaps "I think" might be more appropriate than "is"?
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> Repreating my previous advice: If you suffer from problems like this, > consider a program that exposes you to actual pain or psychological > stress. Probably 'Outward Bound' is the best, but in a pinch you > could try white water rafting, sky diving, bungi jumping, or any other > activity that subjects you to real jeapardy.
> It's amazing how insignificant your computer monitor will become after > a few real-life stressful experiences. After all, it worked for Teddy > Roosevelt, didn't it?
> Harry C.
> p.s., I received several 'hate mail' articles after my past post. I > wonder how many more this one will attract? Realize, if I > considered what I am posting to be bad advice, I truly wouldn't > have posted it. It's simply that some people do need a 'wakeup > call.' I would suggest that the reason you receive what you perceive as "hate mail" is that 1) you seem to express an (apparently) unjustified certainty on things about which you give no sound basis for your *opinion* AND 2) you, in effect, "blame the victim" for his/her problem. (Easy to do when it's not YOUR problem!) Such dogmatic attributions of problems to "psychogenic" origins (all too common in medicine and almost invariably WRONG (vitrually every medical problem was attributed to "psycogenic" origins at some point (before it was eventually understood)). Some amount of reactive animosity is, IMHO understandable, although not the most effective or desireable reaction.
IME (in my experience), angry replies are usually a result of the WAY and MANNER in which ideas were expressed (inappropriate certainty, disparaging other's valid observations, etc.) rather than to the ideas themselves.
Also consider that, in the case of amalgam, those who, for MANY good reasons, feel that they have been systematically poisioned by a profession that has studiously avoided adequately investigating the amalgam safety issue for well over a century, have a good deal of understandable resentment, distrust and anger. Sometimes we forget that a lot of dentists have been "victimized" with the same hogwash that has been fed to patients. (But we DO feel that they were a lot more gullible than is really justifiable.)
jdbar...@mindspring.com
(another poster wrote)
Watch the tooth voltage readings. Most millivolt meters will measure voltages when the probes are put in the mouth. Saliva is a good electrolyte and when combined with fillings and meter probes forms a very effective battery.
Newsgroups: alt.health.dental-amalgam, sci.physics.electromag, sci.med.dentistry From: micromercur...@geocities.com - Find messages by this author Date: 1997/09/22 Subject: Re: Amalgam in EM field Reply to Author | Forward | Print | View Thread | Show original | Report Abuse
Harry H Conover wrote:
> Harry C.
> p.s., I received several 'hate mail' articles after my past post. I > wonder how many more this one will attract? Realize, if I > considered what I am posting to be bad advice, I truly wouldn't > have posted it. It's simply that some people do need a 'wakeup > call.' Please do a search there is more on CRT its a matter of the frequency given off, there was only one computer that did not produce this effect and it was an IBM model.
Below the symptoms are no different its just a matter of time, if only we could all wake up.
Regards micromercurial http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2888/
Scientist Karen Wetterhan 1949 - 1997
Mercury Changed Scientist's Life
It was just a drop of liquid, just a tiny glistening drop. It glided over her glove like a jewel.
Scientist Karen Wetterhan knew the risks: The bad stuff kills if you get too close.
She took all the precautions working with mercury in her Dartmouth College lab -- wearing protective gloves and eye goggles, working under a ventilated hood that sucks up chemical fumes.
So on that sunny day in August, when she accidentally spilled a drop, she didn't think anything of it. She washed her hands, cleaned her instruments and went home.
It was just a drop of liquid, just a tiny glistening drop.
At first, friends thought she had caught a stomach bug on her trip to Malaysia. It wasn't until she started bumping into doors that her husband, Leon Webb, began to worry. Karen, always so focused, always so sure of her next step, was suddenly falling down as if she were drunk.
In 15 years together, she had never been sick, never stopped working, never complained. Leon was stunned when she called for a ride home from work.
Over lunch a few days later, Karen confided to her best friend, Cathy Johnson, that she hadn't felt right for some time. Words seemed to be getting stuck in her throat. Her hands tingled. It felt like her whole body was moving in slow motion.
"Karen," Johnson said as she drove her back to the college, "we've got to get you to the hospital."
"After work," Karen promised, walking unsteadily into the Burke chemistry building for the last time.
That night, Leon drove her to the emergency room. It was Monday, Jan. 20, 1997, five months since she had spilled the drop in the lab.
Just a single drop of liquid. Yet somehow it had penetrated her skin.
By the weekend, Karen couldn't walk, her speech was slurred and her hands trembled. Leon paced the house. "Virus" seemed an awfully vague diagnosis for symptoms that were getting worse every day.
"It's mercury poisoning," Dr. David Nierenberg said. "We have to start treatment immediately."
Leon hung up with relief. At last, they understood the problem. Now maybe they could fix it.
It seemed impossible to believe that anything could be wrong with Karen Wetterhahn, one of those quietly impressive individuals whose lives seemed charmed from the start.
Serious and hardworking, she excelled at everything she turned to -- science or sailing or skiing. She grew up near Lake Champlain in upstate New York in a family so close that when she and her only sister became mothers, they named their daughters after each other: Charlotte and Karen.
Karen was always the brilliant one of the family, the one who would do great things. And she did, becoming the first woman chemistry professor at Dartmouth, running a world-renowned laboratory on chromium research, devoting herself to her work.
It was important work, the kind that could lead to cures for cancer and AIDS. Karen thrived on it. She loved nothing more than experimenting with a chemical, figuring out its bad side and how it breaks down living things.
In the often cutthroat world of scientific research and ideas, where work is judged in academic journals and egos are as enormous as intellects, Karen stood out. Other professors would send their students to her office just to meet her. Talk to Karen, they would say.
See how you can balance the demands of work and life and still be on top of your field.
The only place on Earth more precious than her lab was the dark cedar house that Leon, a mason, had built with his own hands. Home was Karen's haven, her retreat from the rarefied halls of Ivy League academia.
Here, in the pretty village of Lyme, at the top of a hill at the end of a dirt road, she would listen to rock music -- heavy metal was her favorite -- and tend her garden.
Here, science came second to 12-year-old Charlotte's baby rabbits, 14-year-old Ashley's mountain bikes, Todd the goat and Dillon the pony.
At home, she would throw great neighborhood parties by the pool, or gather up the family and drag them off to the golf course, or the tennis court, or Ashley's hockey game.
"We never knew she was a world-famous scientist," one neighbor said afterward. "She was just Char and Ashley's mom."
Mercury poisoning.
Karen beamed when she heard the news. Finally, something she understood. Something she could explain. They would feed her fat white nasty-tasting pills that would flush the poison out of her system.
Science would cure her, she told her husband, giddy with excitement as she sat in bed surrounded by her children and her notes.
"Karen was happy, so I was happy," Leon says now. "We just didn't know."
How could they have known? Back in January, virtually nothing was known about the extraordinary dangers of dimethylmercury, the rare man-made compound Karen had spilled. Scientists didn't know it could seep through a latex glove like a drop of water through a Kleenex. Doctors didn't know it could break down the body over the course of a few months, slowly, insidiously, irreversibly.
Above all, no one knew how to stop its deadly progress, as it cut off her hearing, her speech, her vision, reducing her body to a withered shell.
Today, because of Karen, the world knows so much more.
Quicksilver, as mercury is called, has long played a sinister game of seduction with science. One of the world's oldest metals, it comes in various forms -- some that heal, some that kill. Dimethlymercury, a colorless liquid that looks like water but is three times heavier, is far more toxic than other forms -- the kind used in thermometers and batteries and medicine. It's made purely for research and is rarely used.
Aug. 14, 1996. Just one shimmering drop. Now, six months later, Karen's body was riddled with it.
Karen was the one who remembered the spill. It nagged away at her in the hospital as she underwent CT scans and spinal taps and tests for everything except chemical poisoning.
But I work with mercury, she said. Shouldn't I be tested for the bad stuff?
The results plagued the doctors even more: Why had it taken so long for the symptoms to show? What kind of brain damage had already occurred? Had anyone else been exposed? Was she contagious?
And the question that still stings Leon's heart, the one that still seems almost obscene: "Does your wife have any enemies?"
"Enemies!" he whispers incredulously through tears. "Karen didn't have enemies. Everyone loved her."
She was easy to love, this tall athletic woman with the deep infectious laugh. Comfortable to talk to. Always there for students, colleagues and friends.
And for Leon.
In some ways, they seemed an unlikely match: Leon, 40, the son of a Vermont dairy farmer who decided early on that masonry was more profitable than milking cows, and Karen, 48, the daughter of a chemist, the brilliant teacher and scholar. They had an easy comfort with each other. She would watch him coach Charlotte's basketball team; he would accompany her on lecture trips to Italy, Norway and Hawaii.
"She was always interested in what I was doing," he says often, as if he somehow has to explain.
He always knew her work was important but, since the accident, he has made an effort to really understand it. Today, he can recite her resume almost by heart: the awards she won as a doctoral student at Columbia, where her research on platinum was considered the most exciting of its kind, the Women in Science mentoring program she started at Dartmouth, the $7 million federal grant she won to study toxic metals.
She didn't talk much about work at home, except the grant, the largest in the college history. "She was so proud of that," he says.
The mercury research she was doing with Harvard and MIT was just something on the side, Leon explains. Chromium was Karen's real area of expertise.
He shakes his head at the irony. Who could have imagined that the builder would eventually learn more than the scientist about the perils of dimethlymercury?
Others were learning, too. At Dartmouth Medical Center, Dr. David Nierenberg scoured the medical literature for clues about how to treat his colleague and friend. A mile away in his campus office, two doors down from Karen's, John Winn, head of Dartmouth's chemistry department, grabbed every paper on mercury he could find.
The more her colleagues read, the more their hearts sank.
There was only one documented case of dimethlymercury poisoning this century, a Czech chemist in 1972 who had suffered the same symptoms as Karen and died. A handful of people had been exposed directly to pure methlymercury, another toxic mercury compound, and died. More well-known mercury poisoning epidemics, like those in Iraq in the 1970s and Japan in the 1950s, involved exposure to foods contaminated by methylmercury.
There was no telling if dimethlymercury would act the same way.
Karen herself was beginning to understand. There was a desperate look on her face as she pointed to the clock when it was time to take her pills. Still, she kept up a brave face, kept saying not to worry.
"Even if I don't fully recover, maybe I'll get well enough to ride again," she whispered to her horse-riding friend and fellow scientist, Jacqueline Sinclair.
And when the hospital psychologist asked if she was depressed, she smiled. Wouldn't you be? she replied.
That was Jan. 31, three days after the diagnosis. A week later, Karen was transferred to Massachusetts General Hospital for a massive blood transfusion that nearly killed her.
Leon was pacing at home again, torn between honoring his wife's wish not to alert her parents and the feeling that she was sinking faster than she knew.
The phone rang. The nurse said Karen wanted to talk to her son.
From her hospital bed, the mother struggled. She drooled and moaned and the words just wouldn't come. Ashley waited uncomfortably. He didn't like the sounds. He didn't like the silence.
"Hi, Mom," he coaxed, loud so she might hear. It was useless. The nurse ended the torture and took the phone.
"She just wanted to say goodnight," Ashley says, bowing his head to hide the tears when he remembers the last time he talked to his Mom. "She couldn't even say goodnight."
Others remember final moments, too, although everything was happening so fast they didn't seem like goodbyes at the time. But friends could see the toll on the scientist's mind and body. They could see her faith fading, even as she continued to talk about being back on her feet for her new spring course. The day the ambulance came to take her to Massachusetts, she cried uncontrollably.
"I think that's when she knew," says Nadia Gorman, remembering how she tried to comfort her friend and colleague as she wondered if she would ever talk to her again. "There was a feeling of total tragedy in the air."
In the ambulance, Karen told Cathy Johnson for the first time in their 15-year friendship that she loved her. In the hospital, she struggled to point to the letters "N" and "H" on her alphabet board. Leon nodded. He promised that, whatever the outcome, he would take her home, to New Hampshire.
"As a nonscientist, I couldn't comprehend it all," says Provost Jim Wright, Karen's friend and former boss. "And the scientist I had been accustomed to turn to for answers was not available to help me."
Doctors didn't have answers either. They turned to Thomas Clarkson at the University of Rochester in New York, who had set up clinics in Iraq during the epidemic there in the 1970s, when hundreds of people died after eating mercury-poisoned bread.
His lab stopped everything to help, testing Karen's hair and blood samples, ordering a batch of dimethlymercury to begin its own tests.
"I felt such a sense of helplessness," Clarkson says. "Here was one of the world's most distinguished scientists, and I was looking at this woman dying realizing there is nothing the scientific or medical communities can do."
Karen's lab was shut down. Her family, students and co-workers were tested. Her hospital room was checked for airborne mercury from her breath. Federal environmental and health agencies were alerted, as was the state health department. Her car and clothes and house were sniffed with mercury-detectors.
E-mails flew around campus, and around the country. Students emptied libraries of books on mercury, staying up all night to translate obscure research papers, seizing on any sliver of information they could find.
"There would be this elation when we found a study about someone that had been cured," Gorman says, "then crying when we read that the end point for those who went into a coma was death."
Scientists and doctors around the world offered their services.
"It was an extraordinary outpouring," Nierenberg says.
But Karen was slipping too fast to appreciate it. Ten days after the diagnosis, on Feb. 7, she fell into a coma in Massachusetts. Leon told the doctors he was taking her home.
Back at Dartmouth Hitchcock, her family kept vigil by her bedside, her parents and sister talking to her as her body thrashed and moaned. Leon plastered the walls with cards and photographs: Karen on the golf course, at Disney World with the kids, lunch with her friends Cathy and Nadia, shaking hands with President Clinton at graduation ceremonies in 1996.
Just a tiny drop of poison. And she was fighting it with all her might.
It became too difficult for the children to visit. Even friends stayed home, waiting for the phone call that would tell them it was over.
Her husband stroked her face. Her sister and her best friend washed her hair. Doctors tried treatments never attempted on humans before.
But they couldn't save her from the poison. On June 8, it took her life.
"She didn't suffer," Ashley told his eighth-grade class the next day. "She just stopped breathing."
It was 10 months since she had spilled the drop in the lab, four months after she had slipped into a coma.
Karen Wetterhahn's death was as extraordinary as her life and, in many ways, just as important. Perhaps she had an idea that it would be.
While she could still speak, she urged doctors and scientists to learn everything they could from her accident and to warn the world about the dangers.
The world has already learned so much. It learned that the gloves that were supposed to protect her actually acted as a conductor to the poison. It learned that dimethlymercury, so easy to order in research catalogs, is more deadly than anyone had imagined. Saddest of all, it learned that by the time the symptoms showed, it was too late.
There is much more to learn, as scientists and doctors study her case. There will be studies and papers, symposiums and tributes. There may even be new federal regulations and mandatory blood tests for scientists who work with heavy metals. There is talk of banning dimethlymercury for good. And talk of turning her hospital room into a nurses' lounge and naming it for Karen.
Her funeral took place on a hot summer day to the strains of a flute and a choir singing "Be Not Afraid."
In the packed college chapel, the sense of betrayal was as powerful as the sense of loss. Colleagues wept as they eulogized a modern-day Madame Curie who had sacrificed her life to her cause.
What good was pushing back the boundaries of human knowledge, they cried, if they had to bury one of their own?
Alone and bewildered, Leon sat in the front pew, looking out of place in his dark funeral suit, tears streaming down his face.
It all seemed like a dream, he says later. No, he corrects himself -- a nightmare.
He still wakes in the middle of the night and wonders if it's true, or if Karen is just off on another trip. He still half expects her to come striding through the door with her laptop and her notes and her big, big smile to rustle up some tacos for dinner.
He picks up the picture of Karen working in her lab, a study of intensity in her goggles and gloves, staring at her test tubes and vials.
"She loved her work," he says. "It made her happy."
She couldn't have known the risks. She couldn't have known how bad the bad stuff really was. Truth is, no one knew.
Just a tiny drop of liquid. Sweet-smelling. Dense. Deadly.
[ASSOCIATED PRESS, LYME, N.H., September 13, 1997
george1234 - 12 Sep 2005 18:52 GMT >... >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent >gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced >intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery" I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her to eat tomatoes before she wakes up
dr shad j lewis (via google) - 12 Sep 2005 19:59 GMT yawn
Clinton - 12 Sep 2005 22:14 GMT > yawn Before one can be bored , they first have to be able to comprehend what is being said.
LadyLollipop - 12 Sep 2005 23:36 GMT billkatz - 12 Sep 2005 20:53 GMT > I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her > to eat tomatoes before she wakes up It could be some of those new fangled Faradic tomatoes you know...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15621102.200.html
LadyLollipop - 12 Sep 2005 23:45 GMT >> I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her >> to eat tomatoes before she wakes up > > It could be some of those new fangled Faradic tomatoes you know... > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15621102.200.html It could be that the dentists here could care less if anyone suffers with:
Trigeminal neuralgia
http://www.tna-support.org/newlook/definition.htm
Trigeminal neuralgia (TN) is not fatal, but it is universally considered to be the most painful affliction known to medical practice.
Their response is jokes and
yawn.
LadyLollipop - 12 Sep 2005 23:35 GMT "george1234" <george1234pds@excite.com> wrote in message
Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Sep 19, 12:52 pm).
I see, another one of those chicken posters who is afraid of having his posts to be archived.
Translation.
I am a troll, here to harass.
news:r1gbi193cqfonpcc9quoa679isi8ivks55@4ax.com...
>>... >>traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her > to eat tomatoes before she wakes up The problem is the usual one, you snipped and pick out a certain part, so you could belittle.
So very typical.
So exactly which part of Trigeminal neuralgia, do you find, funny?
Did you find the jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve, to be funny?
Did you note that replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem?
Did you note Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown?
I thought not. None of that matters to you, you are just a troll, here to harass. http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html
Trigeminal neuralgia linked to amalgam fillings JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA. Dr. William Cheshire, a physician at the Mayo Clinic, reports on a case where a woman's trigeminal neuralgia (tic douloureux) was traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery". The jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve. Replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown. Cheshire, William P., Jr. The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia. New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 (correspondence)
george1234 - 13 Sep 2005 15:31 GMT >I am a troll, here to harass. Sorry to hear that.. do you know How to plok you in agent?
LadyLollipop - 14 Sep 2005 00:54 GMT I see you you didn't post what I wrote, you are very dishonest.
What I wrote was:
"george1234" <george1234...@excite.com> wrote in message
Note: The author of this message requested that it not be archived This message will be removed from Groups in 6 days (Sep 19, 12:52 pm).
I see, another one of those chicken posters who is afraid of having his posts to be archived.
Translation.
I am a troll, here to harass.
Now back to the subject:
Some of you seem to thing this subject is funny, it is NOT! I did a bit of searching, this is from previous posts, some do not have the URL's.
http://tinyurl.com/abwro
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/00n_1665/00N-1665-EC-07.html
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html
Trigeminal neuralgia linked to amalgam fillings JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA. Dr. William Cheshire, a physician at the Mayo Clinic, reports on a case where a woman's trigeminal neuralgia (tic douloureux) was traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery". The jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve. Replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown. Cheshire, William P., Jr. The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia. New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 (correspondence)
Ortendahl TW, Hogstedt P & Holland RP. Mercury vapor release from dental amalgam in vitro caused by magnetic fields generated by CRT's and electrical cutting procedures. Swed Dent J 1991 p 31 Abstract 22
ABSTRACT: "People working in front of a cathode-ray tube screen (CRT) and who report they are negatively affected, sometimes complain about symptoms often related to "Oral galvanism". Another group of workers, occupationally exposed to magnetic fields, are divers, welding and cutting electrically under water. It has been repoerted (Ortendahl et.
al. J. Undersea Biomed Res 1988;15:443-456) that the magnetic field flux density intraoraly at a certain current and with a specific distance relation between the oral cavity and the electric cord was 1.12 mT with a specific frequency spectra. Exposure of amalgam specimens to a magnetic field with 1.15 mT (50 Hz) caused and chemical
changes on the surfaces of the dental amalgams. Therefore, the aim of the study was to analyze if work in front of a CRT-screen would have any influence on the mercury vapor release from dental amalgam. The aim was also to analyze if a magnetic field with a complex frequency spectra and a flux density of 1.15 mT would influence the mercury vapor release. Materials and Methods: 5 CRT-screens were selected as sources for the magnetic field exposure. The criterias for the selection of screens were: 1 occurring frequently in swedish officies,
2. compensated and uncompensated screens with respect to the magnetic fields. From three types of dental amalgams, representative to swedish
dentistry, cylindrical amalgam specimens were prepared and were immersed in artificial saliva in an electrolytic cell. The electrolytic cells were located exactly in front of the CRT-screens with a distance amalgam - CRT-screen of 50 cm during 6 hours. On a specific electrolytic cell, coils were adapted and supplied with a current to the electrical cutting situation. The created field had a complex frequency spectra in order to create a more realistic simulation of the in vivo situation than the earlier used 50 Hz field.
The mercury vapor release (Hg0) was registered continously and were determined by a gold-foil mercury vapor analyzer (Jerome 411). As control served amalgam specimens, not exposed to a magnetic field but immersed in the artificial saliva and a reference group which were not exposed to either the magnetic fields or artificial saliva.
Results and Conclusion: 2 of the CRT-screens significantly increased the mercury vapor release from all three types of amalgam. One of these two screens were compensated and one were uncompensated. The magnetic fields which were supposed to simulate the electrical cutting situation did not cause any increased mercury vapor release. The study was supported by The Swedish Work Environmental fund."
Newsgroups: alt.health.dental-amalgam, sci.physics.electromag, sci.med.dentistry From: Jim Barron <jdbar...@cphl.mindspring.com> - Find messages by this author Date: 1997/09/22 Subject: Re: Amalgam in EM field Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original
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Harry H Conover wrote:
> p...@tcp.co.uk wrote: > : [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > magnetic fields from CRT deflection yokes as the like would be...ah... > more or less insignificant? Actually it doesn't seem strange at all: Since no one has apparently scientificly studied this effect, your idea that the effect should be linearly related to the strength of the EMF field is ONLY a **conjecture**. Many biological effects are NOT linear and, without scientific experiments or good theoretical basis for believeing that the effect IS linear (or at least steadily increasing) the "jury is still out". I *DO* know that I DO have currents in my teeth (measured at up to 400 mV) and that they are very strongly affected by magnetic fields (on of the reasons I have been so absent from this group is that I have been unable to sit in front of my CRT monitor for more than a very short period without severe problems from the currents in my teeth (which problems markedly reduced each time a quadrant of fillings was removed - only one left to go!)
- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
> : It has been repoerted (Ortendahl et. > : al. J. Undersea Biomed Res 1988;15:443-456) that the magnetic field [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > why monitor design focuses on protecting the monitor functioning from > the effects of the environment, and not the converse. This is grossly oversimplistic. EMFs have many important properties OTHER than just strength (frequency, variable or constant, etc.) any of which could possibly be just as, or even more, important than mere strength.
> This would, of course, not be the case if you were running your computer > from a DC battery pack on an isolated mountain peak in the Andes, in which > case the computer monitor just might be the prime contributor to the EM > environment. Interestingly enough I can work at my PORTABLE computer (which has a liquid crystal display, hence no CRT tube (and no variable EMF)) for many hours a day for days on end with NO problems whatsoever. But a few hours in front of a CRT tube would be devestating (FORGET about sleeping!)
Short of this somewhat idealistic situation, ED radiation
> from the computer monitor is totally lost in the backgound noise (at > least from galvanic action considerations.) If this is SO (and my experience indicates that you are just GUESSING (incorrectly!) on this one) perhaps you could explain why the hairs on the back of my hand stick straigt out when they get near my monitor? And they DON'T in the same area when the monitor is off?
> Sorry, I just don't buy it! You have, or course, a right to your OPINION. But an opinion with NOTHING to back it up means little.
If you believe your computer monitor is the
> source of your health problems, the problem is a personal, internal one, > and not something to be blamed on technology. Perhaps "I think" might be more appropriate than "is"?
- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
> Repreating my previous advice: If you suffer from problems like this, > consider a program that exposes you to actual pain or psychological [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > have posted it. It's simply that some people do need a 'wakeup > call.' I would suggest that the reason you receive what you perceive as "hate mail" is that 1) you seem to express an (apparently) unjustified certainty on things about which you give no sound basis for your *opinion* AND 2) you, in effect, "blame the victim" for his/her problem. (Easy to do when it's not YOUR problem!) Such dogmatic attributions of problems to "psychogenic" origins (all too common in medicine and almost invariably WRONG (vitrually every medical problem was attributed to "psycogenic" origins at some point (before it was eventually understood)). Some amount of reactive animosity is, IMHO understandable, although not the most effective or desireable reaction.
IME (in my experience), angry replies are usually a result of the WAY and MANNER in which ideas were expressed (inappropriate certainty, disparaging other's valid observations, etc.) rather than to the ideas themselves.
Also consider that, in the case of amalgam, those who, for MANY good reasons, feel that they have been systematically poisioned by a profession that has studiously avoided adequately investigating the amalgam safety issue for well over a century, have a good deal of understandable resentment, distrust and anger. Sometimes we forget that a lot of dentists have been "victimized" with the same hogwash that has been fed to patients. (But we DO feel that they were a lot more gullible than is really justifiable.)
jdbar...@mindspring.com
(another poster wrote)
Watch the tooth voltage readings. Most millivolt meters will measure voltages when the probes are put in the mouth. Saliva is a good electrolyte and when combined with fillings and meter probes forms a very effective battery.
Newsgroups: alt.health.dental-amalgam, sci.physics.electromag, sci.med.dentistry From: micromercur...@geocities.com - Find messages by this author Date: 1997/09/22 Subject: Re: Amalgam in EM field Reply to Author | Forward | Print | View Thread | Show original | Report Abuse
Harry H Conover wrote:
> Harry C. > p.s., I received several 'hate mail' articles after my past post. I > wonder how many more this one will attract? Realize, if I > considered what I am posting to be bad advice, I truly wouldn't > have posted it. It's simply that some people do need a 'wakeup > call.' Please do a search there is more on CRT its a matter of the frequency given off, there was only one computer that did not produce this effect and it was an IBM model.
Below the symptoms are no different its just a matter of time, if only we could all wake up.
Regards micromercurial http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/2888/
Scientist Karen Wetterhan 1949 - 1997
Mercury Changed Scientist's Life
It was just a drop of liquid, just a tiny glistening drop. It glided over her glove like a jewel.
Scientist Karen Wetterhan knew the risks: The bad stuff kills if you get too close.
She took all the precautions working with mercury in her Dartmouth College lab -- wearing protective gloves and eye goggles, working under a ventilated hood that sucks up chemical fumes.
So on that sunny day in August, when she accidentally spilled a drop, she didn't think anything of it. She washed her hands, cleaned her instruments and went home.
It was just a drop of liquid, just a tiny glistening drop.
At first, friends thought she had caught a stomach bug on her trip to Malaysia. It wasn't until she started bumping into doors that her husband, Leon Webb, began to worry. Karen, always so focused, always so sure of her next step, was suddenly falling down as if she were drunk.
In 15 years together, she had never been sick, never stopped working, never complained. Leon was stunned when she called for a ride home from work.
Over lunch a few days later, Karen confided to her best friend, Cathy Johnson, that she hadn't felt right for some time. Words seemed to be getting stuck in her throat. Her hands tingled. It felt like her whole body was moving in slow motion.
"Karen," Johnson said as she drove her back to the college, "we've got to get you to the hospital."
"After work," Karen promised, walking unsteadily into the Burke chemistry building for the last time.
That night, Leon drove her to the emergency room. It was Monday, Jan. 20, 1997, five months since she had spilled the drop in the lab.
Just a single drop of liquid. Yet somehow it had penetrated her skin.
By the weekend, Karen couldn't walk, her speech was slurred and her hands trembled. Leon paced the house. "Virus" seemed an awfully vague diagnosis for symptoms that were getting worse every day.
"It's mercury poisoning," Dr. David Nierenberg said. "We have to start treatment immediately."
Leon hung up with relief. At last, they understood the problem. Now maybe they could fix it.
It seemed impossible to believe that anything could be wrong with Karen Wetterhahn, one of those quietly impressive individuals whose lives seemed charmed from the start.
Serious and hardworking, she excelled at everything she turned to -- science or sailing or skiing. She grew up near Lake Champlain in upstate New York in a family so close that when she and her only sister became mothers, they named their daughters after each other: Charlotte and Karen.
Karen was always the brilliant one of the family, the one who would do great things. And she did, becoming the first woman chemistry professor at Dartmouth, running a world-renowned laboratory on chromium research, devoting herself to her work.
It was important work, the kind that could lead to cures for cancer and AIDS. Karen thrived on it. She loved nothing more than experimenting with a chemical, figuring out its bad side and how it breaks down living things.
In the often cutthroat world of scientific research and ideas, where work is judged in academic journals and egos are as enormous as intellects, Karen stood out. Other professors would send their students to her office just to meet her. Talk to Karen, they would say.
See how you can balance the demands of work and life and still be on top of your field.
The only place on Earth more precious than her lab was the dark cedar house that Leon, a mason, had built with his own hands. Home was Karen's haven, her retreat from the rarefied halls of Ivy League academia.
Here, in the pretty village of Lyme, at the top of a hill at the end of a dirt road, she would listen to rock music -- heavy metal was her favorite -- and tend her garden.
Here, science came second to 12-year-old Charlotte's baby rabbits, 14-year-old Ashley's mountain bikes, Todd the goat and Dillon the pony.
At home, she would throw great neighborhood parties by the pool, or gather up the family and drag them off to the golf course, or the tennis court, or Ashley's hockey game.
"We never knew she was a world-famous scientist," one neighbor said afterward. "She was just Char and Ashley's mom."
Mercury poisoning.
Karen beamed when she heard the news. Finally, something she understood. Something she could explain. They would feed her fat white nasty-tasting pills that would flush the poison out of her system.
Science would cure her, she told her husband, giddy with excitement as she sat in bed surrounded by her children and her notes.
"Karen was happy, so I was happy," Leon says now. "We just didn't know."
How could they have known? Back in January, virtually nothing was known about the extraordinary dangers of dimethylmercury, the rare man-made compound Karen had spilled. Scientists didn't know it could seep through a latex glove like a drop of water through a Kleenex. Doctors didn't know it could break down the body over the course of a few months, slowly, insidiously, irreversibly.
Above all, no one knew how to stop its deadly progress, as it cut off her hearing, her speech, her vision, reducing her body to a withered shell.
Today, because of Karen, the world knows so much more.
Quicksilver, as mercury is called, has long played a sinister game of seduction with science. One of the world's oldest metals, it comes in various forms -- some that heal, some that kill. Dimethlymercury, a colorless liquid that looks like water but is three times heavier, is far more toxic than other forms -- the kind used in thermometers and batteries and medicine. It's made purely for research and is rarely used.
Aug. 14, 1996. Just one shimmering drop. Now, six months later, Karen's body was riddled with it.
Karen was the one who remembered the spill. It nagged away at her in the hospital as she underwent CT scans and spinal taps and tests for everything except chemical poisoning.
But I work with mercury, she said. Shouldn't I be tested for the bad stuff?
The results plagued the doctors even more: Why had it taken so long for the symptoms to show? What kind of brain damage had already occurred? Had anyone else been exposed? Was she contagious?
And the question that still stings Leon's heart, the one that still seems almost obscene: "Does your wife have any enemies?"
"Enemies!" he whispers incredulously through tears. "Karen didn't have enemies. Everyone loved her."
She was easy to love, this tall athletic woman with the deep infectious laugh. Comfortable to talk to. Always there for students, colleagues and friends.
And for Leon.
In some ways, they seemed an unlikely match: Leon, 40, the son of a Vermont dairy farmer who decided early on that masonry was more profitable than milking cows, and Karen, 48, the daughter of a chemist, the brilliant teacher and scholar. They had an easy comfort with each other. She would watch him coach Charlotte's basketball team; he would accompany her on lecture trips to Italy, Norway and Hawaii.
"She was always interested in what I was doing," he says often, as if he somehow has to explain.
He always knew her work was important but, since the accident, he has made an effort to really understand it. Today, he can recite her resume almost by heart: the awards she won as a doctoral student at Columbia, where her research on platinum was considered the most exciting of its kind, the Women in Science mentoring program she started at Dartmouth, the $7 million federal grant she won to study toxic metals.
She didn't talk much about work at home, except the grant, the largest in the college history. "She was so proud of that," he says.
The mercury research she was doing with Harvard and MIT was just something on the side, Leon explains. Chromium was Karen's real area of expertise.
He shakes his head at the irony. Who could have imagined that the builder would eventually learn more than the scientist about the perils of dimethlymercury?
Others were learning, too. At Dartmouth Medical Center, Dr. David Nierenberg scoured the medical literature for clues about how to treat his colleague and friend. A mile away in his campus office, two doors down from Karen's, John Winn, head of Dartmouth's chemistry department, grabbed every paper on mercury he could find.
The more her colleagues read, the more their hearts sank.
There was only one documented case of dimethlymercury poisoning this century, a Czech chemist in 1972 who had suffered the same symptoms as Karen and died. A handful of people had been exposed directly to pure methlymercury, another toxic mercury compound, and died. More well-known mercury poisoning epidemics, like those in Iraq in the 1970s and Japan in the 1950s, involved exposure to foods contaminated by methylmercury.
There was no telling if dimethlymercury would act the same way.
Karen herself was beginning to understand. There was a desperate look on her face as she pointed to the clock when it was time to take her pills. Still, she kept up a brave face, kept saying not to worry.
"Even if I don't fully recover, maybe I'll get well enough to ride again," she whispered to her horse-riding friend and fellow scientist, Jacqueline Sinclair.
And when the hospital psychologist asked if she was depressed, she smiled. Wouldn't you be? she replied.
That was Jan. 31, three days after the diagnosis. A week later, Karen was transferred to Massachusetts General Hospital for a massive blood transfusion that nearly killed her.
Leon was pacing at home again, torn between honoring his wife's wish not to alert her parents and the feeling that she was sinking faster than she knew.
The phone rang. The nurse said Karen wanted to talk to her son.
From her hospital bed, the mother struggled. She drooled and moaned and the words just wouldn't come. Ashley waited uncomfortably. He didn't like the sounds. He didn't like the silence.
"Hi, Mom," he coaxed, loud so she might hear. It was useless. The nurse ended the torture and took the phone.
"She just wanted to say goodnight," Ashley says, bowing his head to hide the tears when he remembers the last time he talked to his Mom. "She couldn't even say goodnight."
Others remember final moments, too, although everything was happening so fast they didn't seem like goodbyes at the time. But friends could see the toll on the scientist's mind and body. They could see her faith fading, even as she continued to talk about being back on her feet for her new spring course. The day the ambulance came to take her to Massachusetts, she cried uncontrollably.
"I think that's when she knew," says Nadia Gorman, remembering how she tried to comfort her friend and colleague as she wondered if she would ever talk to her again. "There was a feeling of total tragedy in the air."
In the ambulance, Karen told Cathy Johnson for the first time in their 15-year friendship that she loved her. In the hospital, she struggled to point to the letters "N" and "H" on her alphabet board. Leon nodded. He promised that, whatever the outcome, he would take her home, to New Hampshire.
"As a nonscientist, I couldn't comprehend it all," says Provost Jim Wright, Karen's friend and former boss. "And the scientist I had been accustomed to turn to for answers was not available to help me."
Doctors didn't have answers either. They turned to Thomas Clarkson at the University of Rochester in New York, who had set up clinics in Iraq during the epidemic there in the 1970s, when hundreds of people died after eating mercury-poisoned bread.
His lab stopped everything to help, testing Karen's hair and blood samples, ordering a batch of dimethlymercury to begin its own tests.
"I felt such a sense of helplessness," Clarkson says. "Here was one of the world's most distinguished scientists, and I was looking at this woman dying realizing there is nothing the scientific or medical communities can do."
Karen's lab was shut down. Her family, students and co-workers were tested. Her hospital room was checked for airborne mercury from her breath. Federal environmental and health agencies were alerted, as was the state health department. Her car and clothes and house were sniffed with mercury-detectors.
E-mails flew around campus, and around the country. Students emptied libraries of books on mercury, staying up all night to translate obscure research papers, seizing on any sliver of information they could find.
"There would be this elation when we found a study about someone that had been cured," Gorman says, "then crying when we read that the end point for those who went into a coma was death."
Scientists and doctors around the world offered their services.
"It was an extraordinary outpouring," Nierenberg says.
But Karen was slipping too fast to appreciate it. Ten days after the diagnosis, on Feb. 7, she fell into a coma in Massachusetts. Leon told the doctors he was taking her home.
Back at Dartmouth Hitchcock, her family kept vigil by her bedside, her parents and sister talking to her as her body thrashed and moaned. Leon plastered the walls with cards and photographs: Karen on the golf course, at Disney World with the kids, lunch with her friends Cathy and Nadia, shaking hands with President Clinton at graduation ceremonies in 1996.
Just a tiny drop of poison. And she was fighting it with all her might.
It became too difficult for the children to visit. Even friends stayed home, waiting for the phone call that would tell them it was over.
Her husband stroked her face. Her sister and her best friend washed her hair. Doctors tried treatments never attempted on humans before.
But they couldn't save her from the poison. On June 8, it took her life.
"She didn't suffer," Ashley told his eighth-grade class the next day. "She just stopped breathing."
It was 10 months since she had spilled the drop in the lab, four months after she had slipped into a coma.
Karen Wetterhahn's death was as extraordinary as her life and, in many ways, just as important. Perhaps she had an idea that it would be.
While she could still speak, she urged doctors and scientists to learn everything they could from her accident and to warn the world about the dangers.
The world has already learned so much. It learned that the gloves that were supposed to protect her actually acted as a conductor to the poison. It learned that dimethlymercury, so easy to order in research catalogs, is more deadly than anyone had imagined. Saddest of all, it learned that by the time the symptoms showed, it was too late.
There is much more to learn, as scientists and doctors study her case. There will be studies and papers, symposiums and tributes. There may even be new federal regulations and mandatory blood tests for scientists who work with heavy metals. There is talk of banning dimethlymercury for good. And talk of turning her hospital room into a nurses' lounge and naming it for Karen.
Her funeral took place on a hot summer day to the strains of a flute and a choir singing "Be Not Afraid."
In the packed college chapel, the sense of betrayal was as powerful as the sense of loss. Colleagues wept as they eulogized a modern-day Madame Curie who had sacrificed her life to her cause.
What good was pushing back the boundaries of human knowledge, they cried, if they had to bury one of their own?
Alone and bewildered, Leon sat in the front pew, looking out of place in his dark funeral suit, tears streaming down his face.
It all seemed like a dream, he says later. No, he corrects himself -- a nightmare.
He still wakes in the middle of the night and wonders if it's true, or if Karen is just off on another trip. He still half expects her to come striding through the door with her laptop and her notes and her big, big smile to rustle up some tacos for dinner.
He picks up the picture of Karen working in her lab, a study of intensity in her goggles and gloves, staring at her test tubes and vials.
"She loved her work," he says. "It made her happy."
She couldn't have known the risks. She couldn't have known how bad the bad stuff really was. Truth is, no one knew.
Just a tiny drop of liquid. Sweet-smelling. Dense. Deadly.
[ASSOCIATED PRESS, LYME, N.H., September 13, 1997
george1234 - 14 Sep 2005 15:57 GMT >I see, another one of those chicken posters who is afraid of having his >posts to be archived. Do you believe name calling over such a trivial choisce of usenet options supports your position?
If you note there is a direct counter to your observation in an adjacent response. How do you account for the difference in observations? In one case we have acid tomatoes conspiring with amalgam and gold to produce shocks, and in the other we don't..
Reflection on this counter example, may give you a clue as to why your position is treated as a less than serious, it is countered by observation.
LadyLollipop - 14 Sep 2005 17:08 GMT >>I see, another one of those chicken posters who is afraid of having his >>posts to be archived. > > Do you believe name calling over such a trivial choisce of usenet > options supports your position? I believe in calling a spade a spade.
> If you note there is a direct counter to your observation in an > adjacent response. How do you account for the difference in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > position is treated as a less than serious, it is countered by > observation. #1. You would do well to note, it was NOT *my* position.
#2 The problem with this newsgroups and others, they wish to personally trash the poster.
#3 That is VERY childish.
#4. Your post was RUDE, uncalled for, and disrespectful
The difference for the direct counter was
the sake of an *argument*
In FACT the problem is MOST serious.
The FACT is, most dentists, and those brain washed by *organized medicine and dentistry*, here laugh at SERIOUS problems.
The FACT is Trigeminal neuralgia, is VERY VERY painful, and ANY one who laughs and makes jokes about it is D E S P I C A B L E!!!!!!!
george1234 - 14 Sep 2005 17:54 GMT >> Do you believe name calling over such a trivial choisce of usenet >> options supports your position?
>I believe in calling a spade a spade. >#4. Your post was RUDE, uncalled for, and disrespectful Reflect on the juxtoposition of these two statements, Ace;)
Back on topic, you have not adressed the problem of contradictiory evidence. Do you believe as Clinton does that amalgam is not the source of the problem, and that there are other elements to the cited case?
LadyLollipop - 14 Sep 2005 18:49 GMT >>> Do you believe name calling over such a trivial choisce of usenet >>> options supports your position? > >>I believe in calling a spade a spade. >>#4. Your post was RUDE, uncalled for, and disrespectful #1 It is most impolite to snip in the middle of a post.
> Reflect on the juxtoposition of these two statements, Ace;) What is a juxtopostion?
> Back on topic, you have not adressed the problem of contradictiory > evidence. Wrong. I did address it, you very impolitely, snipped it.
Here it is again: *The difference for the direct counter was
the sake of an *argument*
== I am not interested in any *argument*
Do you believe as Clinton does that amalgam is not the
> source of the problem, and that there are other elements to the cited > case? I agree with Clinton.
However what you twisted above is NOT what Clinton said.
You are a VERY DISHONEST PERSON!!!
Here is what Clinton said:
You moron. Every configuration of amalgam placement is different. the chemical concentration/condensation of the amalgam and or crown could be different. The placement, paths of saliva conduction, saliva ph, and acidic breakown from bacteria as well as mineral/acid interactions from local tooth loss, or even immune system interaction and or crevice corrosion (which is real and can create strong acids simple from scavanging mechanisms in sealed or statica areas near the amalgam) couild all create various different states of chemical breakdown and galvanic interaction. gold will even interact with amalgam if they are separated by cement. Once corrision sets in high copper amalgams it is also exponential with depth and certainly would result in a wide variety of states of galvanic interaction. Only in your dipsidoddle dumbass world does you "counter example prove anything. In fact even the manufactuing sheets warn agains placing gold near amalgams. It should give anyone chills that someone like you is handling and placing a Hg material in their children and makes monkies out of people like my who ever put any trust in their dentist or thought they would have enough remedial intellegience to appreciate the basic dangers of the toxic material they were handling.
> On the face of it, that would eliminate the galvanic reaction between > gold and amalgam. On the face of it proves your a simpleton. Simpletons shouldn't handle or regulate Hg containing products
dr shad j lewis (via google) - 15 Sep 2005 01:51 GMT This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown.
Replace amalgam with composite - symptoms stop.
Replace amalgam with porcelain crown, symptoms stop.
Replace gold crown with porcelain, and LEAVE AMALGAM - symptoms stop.
Prove it wrong. Lady Lollipop.
How many licks does it take to get to the center of your tootsie?
carabelli - 15 Sep 2005 02:24 GMT > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How many licks does it take to get to the center of your tootsie? Can't post a lemniscate in this format
carabelli
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 02:37 GMT > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Prove it wrong. Lady Lollipop. I don't know what in the heck you and george are blabbering about. For one thing replacing the gold could STOP the galvanic action but by that time the amalgam could have corroded from the galvanic action and releasing much more Hg since corrosion is exponential with depth. Why would you keep such a filling in the patients mouth even if the electrical jolts ceased, unless you had a completely false conception of the stablility of amalgam.
Ask yourself this simple question. If amalgam and gold/ or another amalgam were placed in such a way to dissipate electrical jolts which would have a cetain amount of energy, where is that energy coming from. In other words if you can take two dissimilar materials and place them together to supply a 'biological" circuit with energy, why should the two materials be structurally unaffected. That would be energy for nothing. The STRUCTURE of the materials is always affected unless you belive in free energy.
Second any two dissimilar materials or amalgam could cause such a problem. And obviously amalgam by itself can breakdown, chemically without generating electricity in a galvanci type of circuit, or even withot galvanism being involved. Crevice corrsion is one mechanism.
that was just an extreme example exacerbated when the patient eats acid which probably also affect the galvanic reaction/corrosion rate, and electrical properties of the gold/amalgam- to get the point across that amalgam is not an inherently stable material. Kinda of like saying, look, electricity must be real because this tree was just vaporized with a lighting bolt. Pointing out that in many cases lightining doesn't srike, doesn't mean the concept of electricity is now invalid whenever there isn't a thunderstorm.
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 02:42 GMT > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > How many licks does it take to get to the center of your tootsie? Dam, I just wrote a long response which got lost by Google. Cetainly the amalgam could have already corroded and be releasing higher levels of Hg, even if replacing the gold stops the electrical reaction. Why keep the amalgam in. Two dissimiarl materials will not maintain their orginal structure and still supply energy in a galvanic type circuit indefintely. That would be energy for nothing. The point is that to be involved in this type of reaction clearly shows the amalgam is not inherently stable.
LadyLollipop - 15 Sep 2005 03:40 GMT > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. Sad that you think it funny.
> Replace amalgam with composite - symptoms stop. > > Replace amalgam with porcelain crown, symptoms stop. > > Replace gold crown with porcelain, and LEAVE AMALGAM - symptoms stop. That wasn't mentioned, but the problem is, the VERY clear.
There is a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent gold-alloy crown, dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential.
He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown. Cheshire, William P., Jr. The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia. New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 (correspondence)
<remainer snipper>
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 04:01 GMT > > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. > > Sad that you think it funny. the other thing that pisses me off is by pretending amalgam was inert for so long, jokers like this think (thought and still think), it doesn't matter the way you put the amalgam in or other factors such as adjacent metals. Gee if amalgams stable I can just stick it in even if it isn't mixed right and who cares if its next to gold. Hg will never come out of the filling?
And then people like me have to spend years backtracking only to find some Jackass thought amalgam was some magic material that it didn't matter how the **** you install it.
They even have Q/A sites on how did build fillings with different types of amalgams for better material properties. (Loud buzzing sound) wrong answer, that's a setup for corrosion.
LadyLollipop - 15 Sep 2005 04:37 GMT >> > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > types of amalgams for better material properties. (Loud buzzing sound) > wrong answer, that's a setup for corrosion. One word for them,,,,,,,PATHETIC!
Robert Morien - 15 Sep 2005 05:41 GMT > >> > This is funny. Amalgam filling and gold crown. > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > One word for them,,,,,,,PATHETIC! and yet you never harass anyone.
billkatz - 15 Sep 2005 12:49 GMT Metals are rated on what is called a Scale of Nobility, which simply means the materials ability to resist corrosion. There is also a chart called the Galvanic Series which shows the electrical potential of metals. A more noble metal is one that has a neutral or negative electrical potential. It will not generate a flow of positive ions. The most noble metals are graphite, platinum, gold, silver and mercury; respectively in that order.
The reverse of this are the least noble metals, which have a high positive charge, and which will generate an electrical current. These materials include such metals as cadmium, beryllium, zinc and magnesium, again in that order.
Galvanism (electricity produced by chemical action) in this case simply refers to the flow of electrons when two dissimilar metals are mated together. Creating an amalgam of mercury and silver or by placing gold in proximity does not create galvanism. A metallurgist will tell you that your theory is hogwash because you've blended the most noble of metals. Blending mercury and cadmium, on the other hand, would cause this reaction even though you wouldn't have a stable compound.
Dentists have to pass numerous chemistry classes before they become licensed. Amalgamists, obviously, -- don't!
W_B - 15 Sep 2005 16:22 GMT >The >most noble metals are graphite, platinum, gold, silver and mercury; >respectively in that order. Graphite ? isn't that carbon ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
billkatz - 15 Sep 2005 17:19 GMT > Graphite ? isn't that carbon ? Graphite is always included as first in the cathodic or "noble end" of the Galvanic Table due to its properties. Graphite is also an inherent part of many alloys and plays a crucial part in many superconductors. (Of course, mercury is a superconductor too, at 4 Kelvin.)
Lets see what kind of sh*t they can start with that <LOL>
W_B - 15 Sep 2005 17:52 GMT >> Graphite ? isn't that carbon ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Lets see what kind of sh*t they can start with that <LOL> Knew about graphite as cathode, but calling it a noble metal ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
billkatz - 15 Sep 2005 20:07 GMT > Knew about graphite as cathode, but calling it a noble metal ? My bad :) I'll proofread next time!
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:48 GMT >>> Graphite ? isn't that carbon ? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Knew about graphite as cathode, but calling it a noble metal ? Sir Graphite to you.
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:47 GMT >>The >>most noble metals are graphite, platinum, gold, silver and mercury; >>respectively in that order. > >Graphite ? isn't that carbon ? Graphite in the mouth produces untold suffering ..........
Its carbon meaning it has a postive valence making it a metal.
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 17:04 GMT Creating an amalgam of mercury and silver or by placing gold
> in proximity does not create galvanism. A metallurgist will tell According to you galvansim can't occur between amalgam and Gold.
Well,
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ada/jada/2003/00000134/00000011/art00007
Remember to inform the JADA of that. By the way amalgam also contains numerous other metals including zinc and copper, in significant amounts. (especially the newer forumaltions)
Now back to the main point, IF the phenommena above occurs and energy is being generated then that means a change in chemical structure is occuring. You don't get elecrtical shocks by having an amalgam next to gold and then say, but if we remove them after years of this kind of phenomena they will be just like new!
you
> that your theory is hogwash because you've blended the most noble of > metals. Blending mercury and cadmium, on the other hand, would ARe you seriously going to say that galvansim DOESN'T occur with dental materials. By the way amalgam also releases large amounts of Hg vapor. Didn't they also use gold to mine for Hg!
W_B - 15 Sep 2005 17:38 GMT >Didn't they also use gold to mine for Hg! Like most things, you have that backward *and* incorrect.
Hg was used in the processing of Au and Ag ore to separate out the metals. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 17:48 GMT > >Didn't they also use gold to mine for Hg! > > Like most things, you have that backward *and* incorrect. > > Hg was used in the processing of Au and Ag ore to separate > out the metals. Who give a ****, that was just put in jokingly as an aside. the point is the linked article. Lets see who should I take more serously , someon who doesn't believe in evolution or someone who doesn't even know if amalgam is a conductor
billkatz - 15 Sep 2005 17:48 GMT > Remember to inform the JADA of that. By the way amalgam also > contains numerous other metals including zinc and copper, in > significant amounts. (especially the newer forumaltions)
> Now back to the main point, IF the phenommena above occurs and > energy is being generated then that means a change in chemical > structure is occuring. You don't get elecrtical shocks by having > an amalgam next to gold and then say, but if we remove them after > years of this kind of phenomena they will be just like new! Mixing silver, mercury and small amounts of copper (another noble metal) and zinc is not the same as nickel and cadmium. Take a voltage meter and put it in your mouth. There won't be any.
> Didn't they also use gold to mine for Hg! No, you have that assbackwards too.
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 18:06 GMT > > Remember to inform the JADA of that. By the way amalgam also > > contains numerous other metals including zinc and copper, in [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > metal) and zinc is not the same as nickel and cadmium. Take a voltage > meter and put it in your mouth. There won't be any. 1. Actually as WB pointed out they already did that on the discovery channel and they foung a voltage between amalgam and gold.
2. i don't have amalgam for obvious reasons
3. Amalgams can contain a lot of copper up to 10% nor is the concentation of metals always uniform on the surface.
4.
> > Didn't they also use gold to mine for Hg! > > No, you have that assbackwards too. Hey listne you smug twit. i threw that in as a joke. Why don't you comment on the cited article you twitbrained jackass. What kind of an idiot thinks they can insult someone when they are clearly condradicted by a cited article in the next link and doesn't have to comment on the article. You think galvansim doesn't occur. Google amalgam and galvansim moron. Who gives a sh.t about your electronegativity table
billkatz - 15 Sep 2005 20:06 GMT > Hey listne you... <snip>
Anger management problems??? <LOL>
People have lived with amalgams for over a hundred years and they'll continue to do so, with or without your consent. ;*P
If a person is suffering from a significant electric shock or current; it can be easily measured by any sane person at home with a meter. The reason I find your posts so amusing is because they border on the hysterical. Walk down the street and of every ten adults you pass, at the very minimum, three will have amalgam fillings and metal crowns. You see them suffering from this form of electro-shock therapy? NO! What does concern me is that someone will try to get some perfectly healthy teeth ripped out because they've read this endless drivel of yours. That *is* a concern.
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 21:19 GMT > > Hey listne you... > <snip> > > Anger management problems??? <LOL> That' right hg does make you angry you lucky heatlthy,ignorant ..I'll skip the rest of what i was going to say.
> People have lived with amalgams for over a hundred years and they'll > continue to do so, with or without your consent. ;*P Twit brained response
> If a person is suffering from a significant electric shock or current; > it can be easily measured by any sane person at home with a meter. Can you refer to the quoted article on galvansim I linked to. Do you like to repeatedly make a jackass out of yourself in public? I guess some people do!
The
> reason I find your posts so amusing is because they border on the > hysterical. You wouldn't be laughing if you'f been poisoned by mercury then had an infection that took away a lot of your jaw. I'm, going to post my CT scan so everyone can see how hilarious this is. The reason I find YOUR posts hysterical is because you seem so feeblemend yet confident you know about amalgamyou remind of the 100,000 of dentists who are the same. if you were a dentist I'd run the other way. you actually do remind of my old dentist, always ready with a joke, thought amalgam probably was inert and a little slow.
>Walk down the street and of every ten adults you pass, at > the very minimum, three will have amalgam fillings and metal crowns. How did you do on reading comprhension in school? Why don't you read the quoted reference. You didn't even read it did you. Galvansin yes or no? Who cares what happens most of the time, and who cares if people are being shocked (of course it is important to those it happens to). Its the ability of amalgam to interact electrivally/chemically that is at issue. Over time all amalgams will release Hg and corrode. They lose a lot of material. that *is* universal. if you say you've got a univeral equation to set the limits on that under all conditions over several decades your full of **** and i've got a nobel prize for you! You can't even characterize the phase changes or vapor pressure of amalgam. Adn if you say you've gone out and done studies on people experienceing electric effects your also full of ****.
Obviously most poeple don't have their amalgams placed in identicalmanner under identical condition and most don't expierence electric shocks. Most may even have amalgam behave in a "relatively" stable manner. Regardless going by what you percieve "happens most the time" is not a scientific argument. In fact it's the most primative form of reasoning there is. It makes you the intellectual equivalent of a monkey. Is this how you go through life or can you actually think things through theoretically without following what the other "monkeys" are doing.
> You see them suffering from this form of electro-shock therapy? NO! > What does concern me is that someone will try to get some perfectly > healthy teeth ripped out because they've read this endless drivel of > yours. That *is* a concern. Oh please, can the fake concern. And that is so stupid. if someone was having electrical shocks from thier amalgam, they would know. Otherwise they wouldn't be concerned at all. As far as amalgam being unstable, IT IS SOME OF THE TIME IN SOME Cases you scientifically simpleminded conformist intellectually ignorant, lazy twit.
It's the largest source of elemental Hg under *ideal* circumstances. Remember the article in the NEJM or did that go in one ear/out the other.
You also managed to mischaracterize what I said again. Getting to be a real habit of yours along with the unsubstantiated, lame, half simplified scientific counter arguments which always coincide with 'what I observe to be true'/ which then with a simple multimeter measurement or linked article in the JADA is subsequently shown to be false.
Notice how in a few posts suddenly we've gone from stilted lectures on electronegativity to an attack post completely deviod of any science which ignores obvious scientific links, and is chocked full of smug-self assured opinion and bigoted innuenendo based on what you think happens to "the group" and what other people say.
Again, my point is that electrically phenoma when it occurs will be accmpanied by strucural changes. I.E replacing the crown is half the problem if the amalgam is corroding. AND CORROSION products can increase drasitcally with corrosion depth. (Don't make me quote an article on that either, look it up yourself.)
dr shad j lewis (via google) - 15 Sep 2005 22:16 GMT For your information - Mercury does not cause infections.
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 22:25 GMT > For your information - Mercury does not cause infections. Actually it can damage bone, especially the marror which can allow infection to set in. In fact Hg vapor can cause teeth to loosen. We had a disussion on this before in Sci.med.
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:50 GMT >> For your information - Mercury does not cause infections. > >Actually it can damage bone, especially the marror which can allow Actually the marror is chopped apples and nuts with some honey mixed in .........
It causes infected teeth so Clinton must mean the chewable marror.
Joel
>infection to set in. In fact Hg vapor can cause teeth to loosen. >We had a disussion on this before in Sci.med. LadyLollipop - 16 Sep 2005 01:34 GMT > For your information - Mercury does not cause infections. For YOURS, it POISONS, including AMALGAMS!
dr shad j lewis (via google) - 15 Sep 2005 22:17 GMT Besides, why so hostile?
Why the name calling, clinton?
Clinton - 15 Sep 2005 22:41 GMT > Besides, why so hostile? > > Why the name calling, clinton? Well, because I can still feel the effects from the amalgam/infection in the jaw, and that stuff really does make you mad! especially when it methylates! You know when you are poisoned by hg to a signifcant degree the symptomatic anger really never does go completely away. Then when I read what people say about amalgam and i know the domino effect it can have on your health (in certain cases. I'm not arguing that most people "seem" to be "relatvely" healthy with amalgam), it makes me even madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my dentist and others just had common sense about amalgam!
george1234 - 15 Sep 2005 23:23 GMT >>... it makes me even >madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my >dentist and others just had common sense about amalgam! So... when did you get amalgam. IIRC, that's all that was available in the 60's when I first got my cavites filled. Was there an alternative available when you first got your teeth fixed?
Clinton - 16 Sep 2005 00:10 GMT > >>... it makes me even > >madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the 60's when I first got my cavites filled. Was there an alternative > available when you first got your teeth fixed? My dentist removed my records so i can't figure out exactly when he placed my first fillings. (which in fact were the ones that "corroded" after about 8-9 years). Probably they were placed between 80-82. I can't really remember if alternatives were available then because I was too young but no one I knew talked about anything else.
Interestingly the actual material used was valiant phd which was a newer non-gamma2 formulation introduced in the 70's composed of copper and palladium.
billkatz - 16 Sep 2005 00:17 GMT Clinton,
I'm not trying to patronize or belittle you or anyone else who's sick.
If you tell me that your teeth came loose, I believe you. If you tell me that you abscessed and you had to fight horrible infections, I believe you. If you tell me that you lost part of your jaw from it, I believe you. If you tell me that you have heart disease, I'll believe you.
So, please, in all frankness, accept my apology. I clearly understand where you're trying to point me to and I by no means hold any name calling to heart. Aside from the evidence you propose to us, can you please describe the progression of what happened to you? Did you have any symptoms? Did this happen suddenly or over time?
Clinton - 16 Sep 2005 00:30 GMT > Clinton, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So, please, in all frankness, accept my apology. I clearly understand Thanks for your apology.
> where you're trying to point me to and I by no means hold any name > calling to heart. Sometimes the best way to make these issues interesting is to argue a little. otherwise people tend to doze off.
Aside from the evidence you propose to us, can you
> please describe the progression of what happened to you? Did you have > any symptoms? Did this happen suddenly or over time? Sure, absolutely. Actually I already discussed some of it on Sci.med so I hate to bore people with the same thing over and over, however I never went into that much detail... I'll write up a summary of the symptoms when I get a chance. The progression spans 3 decades from the 80's to the 2000's. Today I'm typed out!
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:53 GMT >My dentist removed my records so i can't figure out >exactly when he placed my first fillings. REPLY
In many cases I recommend KEEPING the records ... and REMOVING the patient.
Joel
Steven Fawks - 16 Sep 2005 13:20 GMT > My dentist removed my records so i can't figure out > exactly when he placed my first fillings. (which in fact were the ones > that "corroded" after about 8-9 years). Probably they were placed > between 80-82. I was early into posterior composite placement and I didn't start using the material until '83 and didn't switch until '85.
Before posterior composites the only other option was gold (a very good option, just quite expensive for a kid likely to get more decay on the same tooth and require wrecking an expensive inlay for a larger one)
Fawks
W_B - 16 Sep 2005 16:16 GMT >> My dentist removed my records so i can't figure out >> exactly when he placed my first fillings. (which in fact were the ones [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Fawks G.V. Black... extension for prevention. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Clinton - 16 Sep 2005 20:08 GMT > > My dentist removed my records so i can't figure out > > exactly when he placed my first fillings. (which in fact were the ones [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Fawks Well there you, have it. In the late 70's early 80's it would be either amalgam or gold. It would be interesting to know exactly how many people did get gold then. Of course from the perspective of the amalgam issue, the irony is that if you didn't get all gold restorations the potential for Gold to interact with amalgam is there. I.E for some people gold and amalgam would be worse than just amalgam, as documented in this thread. And of course, assuming a kid is aware of all these issues just convincing their parents to get only gold fillings could be a very difficult task (epecially if your brothers or sisters then decided they wanted only gold fillings too!) so you would end up with amalgam anyway!
billkatz - 16 Sep 2005 22:50 GMT > Well there you, have it. In the late 70's early 80's it would be > either amalgam or gold. It would be interesting to know exactly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > brothers or sisters then decided they wanted only gold fillings too!) > so you would end up with amalgam anyway! So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. Were there symptoms? Were there warning signs? You indicated that you've battled with this for decades. How did this manifest itself and what treatment did you seek?
Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 06:02 GMT > So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know > there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. That's a good question because I'm still trying to figure out if it was a bad capsule, or another normal mechanism of amalgam breakdown.j Recently the manufacuter themselves said that certain capsules were faulty see:
http://www.brooks.af.mil/dis/HOT/valiantphd.htm
Were
> there symptoms? Were there warning signs? You indicated that you've > battled with this for decades. How did this manifest itself and what > treatment did you seek? In hindsight it is true there were warnings signs though at the time it was difficult to realize. yes there absolutely are many symptoms, however they are subtle and even puzzling at first and only gradually worsen over time. The Hg victim though is only vaguely aware of what is occuring In fact the symptoms are so numerous it is difficlut to describe them all. Here is some history:
Around 12-14 develop strange stains on the front tooth.
At 16 during a 3 week period (which cancelled doctor checks show was a couple weeks after a dental appiontment) I experienced unexplained frequent urination. (In hindsight this was really the first unequivocal sign of Hg poisoning).
At 18 my German teacher, who is more familiar with the students because you stay in that class with the same teacher for 3 years pulls me aside after a few missed assignements and says: Something is really wrong. Your a good student. I responed kind of amused and unseriously (like a typical teenager), well i'm not doing drugs and of course I missed a few assignments which is why I didn't do well on the test. No she ,says I dont't think your taking drugs and it's not about missing a few assignments, something is really wrong.
(She was pretty smart because she had gotten one of those oxford type scholarships to study languages and was in HS because it ws hard to find jobs were you could teach languages. In retrospect this was the first, most perceptive and the only clear warning I ever recieved from anyone except myself about what was coming. (tragically she died in a car accident a few years later at 40) )
Overall though I was still very healthy and mentally unaffected. and luckily things seemed okay for a few years into college and whatever "symptoms" I may have had from before seem to normalize, (maybe an oxide layer temporatly builds up on the corroding filling or something). But then symptoms did returen and things did get noticeably worse for me at the end of my junior year. Though I thought it was just "a repeat of what had happened before" maybe due to the stress of approaching graduation. But I clearly seemed to become more absent-minded/forgetful (even to myself). I felt more hassled. I seem to develop some kind of heartburn after eating certain foods, like chicken (which contains sulphur). the frequent unexplained urination returns to where I get checked for diabetes. People start to treat me with a little less respect, saying things like, well, your a member of the honor society so you must be smart! I notice that when I watch TV it becomes more difficult to remember what the commentator has said for the first sentence. When I read it becomes harder to remember the information at the beginning of the sentence for long sentences. Especailly long sentences.
For example the sentence:
Given the weigted average of the two systems and the the statisticall average, we can then employ fermov's theroem and integrate to find the resultant vector which interestingly has a unique value for all systems.
By the time I read the word "unique" I have forgotten everyting before the first comma!
I gain a substaintal amount of weight for a brief period, but then mysteriously when it goes back down in my senior year my cholestorel is still high (which in hindsight is a natural reaction to heavy metals). In techincal writing I seem to struggle to find the right words and what I write is uncharacteristcally bland. I seem to have more trouble analyzing the grammer which is strange because I good always do that before (and my roomate has no trouble) While compared to the peers in my class before I was doing very well know my relative grades start to slide. I actually get D's on a few tests, almost fail one badly even miscalculating the time I had by 20 minutes. When before I was good at chess I struggle to beat people I could easily beat before. I have trouble getting a high score on Tetris. It's like I'm not moving or thinking fast enough to get to the highest level! I actually fail an analytical/memory based standardized test my senior year in contrast to the other sections leaving one puzzled teacher to ask if I had gotten out of step ( by mismatching the answers with the question numbers)because everyhone who did good on the other sections before always did well on that section!
At this point as I said suspicious of either diabetes or even some toxic effect I get tested for lead, since my dad used it a lot and checked for diabetes. both come back negative, but one blood test is curious in addition the the cholesterol, my A/G ratio is elevated (which can be a sign of kidney function changes such as from Hg). The day of graduation I am so out of it I actually walk right into a clear plastic wall I didn't see in one of the dorms, leaving some of the amused parents to wonder why graduates are walking into walls!
Soon after College in graduate school i become very exhausted and my memory worsens. Forget demanind analytical/memroy tests (actually along with spatical tests and coordiantion tests one of the most sensitive indicators of Hg poisoning) , Now looking at the verbal section of a test I did a year ago I have apparent trouble remembering the whole passage, leading me to think that "It was lucky I took that test last year". How niave of me! the frequent urination (probably due to build of Hg in the pituary which regulates kidney concentration) becomes very bad, but another trip to the doctor and no explanation, though a thyroid test (done at my insistence) mysteriosly shows low thyroid even though funtion, based on a psa seems "normal". I become more depressed. My performance on tests becomes medicore especailly compared to "peers" in Graduate school who I had done a lot better than as undergraduates. Not because of school because I am still doing okay but in general, but for some reason I start to read books about suicide (which is really out of character for me, since I inherited what you would call "happy genes" from my parents. I even by a copy of 'final exit'. Realizing I am very tired (and thinking I am burned out and 'need a break' since I went directly to grad school),I try to cut course load and one puzzled professor asks if school is just a hobby becaue from before and your test scores we know you can do the work. They agree to cut my course load thought. Still thinking I am "burned out/exhausted" and not sure why I feel so crappy ( i actually remark to my parents i feel like total sh.t and like "an old man", and with a worsening memory i leave graduate school. (Myself actually. I was never forced to leave)
I then get a job as a cashier but by then there are personality changes too at this point from the Hg, which (in hindsight) uncharactersitcally for me causes me to argue more with the Boss than should be (like a hatter) or not take orders well.
(At this stage in hindsight clear changes in persoanlity are occuring from Hg in how I relate to others. This is a total reveral from just 6 years earilier where I would take direction very well and people would say things to me like. Clinton. you always know just the right thing to say. Or , that was a good excuse you gave to the Boss. "i forget what you said but it sounded good.")
Anyway, On the checkout lines they test your overall efficeny, because the scanner is hooked up to a computer. Slowing down physically from the Hg, my Boss calls me into the office one day and says, your PLU (efficeny) is the lowest here! That seems odd I say, I was actually one of the faster workers 6 years before at a Pizza restuarnt. No ,she says, your PLU was the slowest in THE HISTORY OF THE STORE!
However all this would pale to what would come next...to be continued
LadyLollipop - 17 Sep 2005 06:22 GMT I understand, Clinton, it is very hard to tell, it all seems to blend together, it is hard to tell what it happening to you, hard to describe, words seems so vague. You think, what on earth is happening to me? It happened to you at a much younger age, than me, than is even worse. What is so bad, is no one knows what to look for. Don't stress yourself in trying to describe it, in the end, you will most likely be made fun of.
Thanks you for your efforts. I wish you luck if you continue.
AND
I will be VERY UPSET if the dentists here, or anyone makes fun in any manner.
PLEASE, PLEASE, be respectful and DO NOT DO THAT ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know >> there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. [quoted text clipped - 152 lines] > > However all this would pale to what would come next...to be continued Joel M. Eichen - 17 Sep 2005 08:50 GMT >> So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know >> there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >breakdown.j Recently the manufacuter themselves said that certain >capsules were faulty see: REPLY
I heard there have been reports of near death due to bad capsules. What do you think?
Joel
>http://www.brooks.af.mil/dis/HOT/valiantphd.htm LadyLollipop - 17 Sep 2005 09:03 GMT >>> So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know >>> there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Joel I think, you should shut up, real fast.
I don't think you should need to be told twice.
Got that, Joel?
>>http://www.brooks.af.mil/dis/HOT/valiantphd.htm Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 09:37 GMT > >>> So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I > > > > REPLY [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Got that, Joel? Too bad being from Philly Joel doesn't employ the wise ways of his towns most famous personality. Benjamin Franklin.
Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 09:47 GMT > Too bad being from Philly Joel doesn't employ the wise ways of > his towns most famous personality. Benjamin Franklin. What Franklin might say:
"There are lazy minds as well as lazy bodies"
"A lie stands on one foot, but the truth stands on two"
"The doors of wisdom are never shut"
or perhaps
"An empty bag cannot stand upright"
Joel M. Eichen - 17 Sep 2005 11:19 GMT >> Too bad being from Philly Joel doesn't employ the wise ways of >> his towns most famous personality. Benjamin Franklin. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >"An empty bag cannot stand upright" REPLY
Thank you kind Sir!
W_B - 19 Sep 2005 19:29 GMT >"An empty bag cannot stand upright" How about: "an empty wagon makes a hellofalotta noise" ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 09:26 GMT > >> So, Clinton, in your own words, how did this happen to you? I know > >> there are several people, including myself who'd like to know. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Joel Actually I heard some bad capsules even leaked vapor into the office and that some dentists got it from the capsules so they sued the manufacturer themselves. But regardless of the obvious fact that poorly mixed capsules and bad equipment is sometimes used, amalgam itself is also an inherently unstable material. The point I was making before is that I hope it isn't a bad capsule (I'm still considering sueing the practice) because that would be even more sensless (though a easier to prove in court). Actually I still have to get my records and a statemenent for mthe dentist who removed the amalam in CA becaue I wasn't savy enough to get that or save the capsule when i had the amalgam removed, though the dentist indiated the amalgma was bad and had a tremendous amount of decay above it.
I'd also challenge Joel to point to one clincal study of long term stability of Valiant Phd. The longest I could find was someting like 2 years in a small sample, yet this "proves" safety!
Joel M. Eichen - 17 Sep 2005 11:21 GMT >I'd also challenge Joel to point to one clincal study of long term >stability of Valiant Phd. The longest I could find was someting like >2 years in a small sample, yet this "proves" safety! Sorry my friend, I have no interest in this topic or in proving anything. I am reading it to see what you have to say.
Joel
Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 13:47 GMT > >I'd also challenge Joel to point to one clincal study of long term > >stability of Valiant Phd. The longest I could find was someting like [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Joel Well, the story contiues as follows:
Hg poisoned Part 2!
my last post covers the effects of Hg pretty well from the mid 80's to 90's.
So I was suddenly working as a cashier after having a promising career in science and even doing poorly! How could this be! but what was also amazing (in hindsight) was my difficultyt with making change or let's say simple change world problems. A few years before I had been getting A's in calculus. However, the mind always covers up it's weakness. thus the victim is really the biggest fool of all.
So I left that job which was dead ended anyway (actually I was fired) and decided what I needed was a change. Actually I thought vaguely if I was going to get sicker, or whatever was going on persitsted I might as well travel a little to shake things up. so I moved to California.
There I did find jobs in Engineering but the symptoms I described persisted and gradually worsened. Also there were a string of incidents which illustrate how Hg causes rage and were very out of character.
1. One time in the Laundry room in my apartment complex, someone removed my clothes from the dryer, before i got there. I became very angry and even threatened to call the manager, going into a two minute tirade! They were nonplussed!
2. One time at a gas station someone was filling up the gas with thier car running. I started yelling at the person, saying why don't you cut the engine. The station manager actually tried to calm me down a little when I complained while paying my gas bill in the office..
3. I got into an unusal number of arguments with telemarketers, door to door salespeople and even confrontations with people standing on the street.
4. At work one time someone saw one of my Faxes, with some wording they didn't like (a curt response to an obnoxious sales rep) and they took it to the boss. Actaully they had no business looking through everyone elses faxes and claimed they "read it by accident". I remember getting really angry at this person and chewing them out for like 10 minutes in front of everyone in the office. I also at the time had difficulty making good judgement about the ethics of the situation. In retrospect Hg was affecting my ability to think clearly and quicly, to make situational judgements and was causing my anger to get out of control. luckily under "normal circumstances" I am a very calm person, so people thought I was just a bit of a hot head, but if my true nature had been to get angry , with the addedd effect of the Hg I don't know what would have happened
Apparently the Hg also effects coordiantion. On one incidence where I had to rent a car ( actaully on another job just before I got to CA) the person I was driving with asked if I had been driving that long. yes I responded for quite a while. Why do you ask?
In California one time I was soldering something in the manufacturing section for a project. One of the Employees came over, and commented, when you solder YOUR hands are shaking! That's crazy I thought! Not more than anybody elses would.
Well the symptoms continued (whatever they were) and I also noticed that I was starting to get a little shyier or more self-consious. Ater a while I really noticed that myself even in the state I was in. And the frequent urination, sometimes over 30 times a day. It hadn't let up since college and continued, even though i had tried every treatement i could think of.
What really got me though was that some of the symptoms seemed to get worse after I ate certain foods like spaghetti. What could it be I thought/ food allergy, I had considered cotten or polyester or even nutrasweet allergy before. (several years before I had also tried a whole array of vitamens and supplements like chloine in case i had a nutritional deficincy. With no effect.normally i didn't try anything other than what I bought at the grocery store). Maybe it was the cholrine or fluoride in the water! At this point it was 97 about 5 years after the beggining of significant symptoms!
I tried making some water without fluoride or chloride. Okay i left it open in the refrigerator where i read it would evaporate off on the internet. bizzarley it did seem to have a slight effect on the symptoms as opposed to ordinary water, but that really threw me because why would the TYPE of water or what I ate have any effect.
So Then that day i sat down I considered what I knew. Because it isn't WHAT you know the matters. The MOST powerful form or reasoning is deduction. It's what you can eleminate that counts!. And what remains no matter how "unlikely" that is the truth!
It wasn't cancer, or I would be dead, it seemed related to thyroid by it wasn't a primary thyroid problem. I had moved across the country so it couldn't be the environemtn. It could'nt be stress form school or job, since I was working and had graduated. And WATER has an effect. Then I realized in a split second what was happening..it wasn't what I was drinking or eating or what was in my environment, it wasn't "stress or an allergic reation" it was what ws IN my mouth. And the only thing there was a filling. MY GOD, it was the filling!
But what was in a filling? Steel, Nickel. It looked solid but I supposed some kind of metal could come off it, and certainly some metals could caused allergic reactions.
All this had occured without the help of doctors, whose tests had all been inconclusve or negative and I had never even heard of the Amalgam controversy, so then that day in 97 I went to the internet to see what was in those fillings....
Well, I soon discovered they were not fillings, they were "amalgams". So I looked up amalgam. What I saw in one instant fit all the puzzle pieces of nearly 5 years of suffering together at once. The 'amalgams' as they called them actually contained almost 50% Hg , one of the most deadly toxins known! Immediately i made an appointment to see the doctor and dentist!
to be continued...........
Clinton - 17 Sep 2005 16:09 GMT > Immediately i made an appointment to see the > doctor and dentist! > > to be continued........... Hg poisoned! Part 3
So get into the doctors office and I tell this long story. Finally I conclude. I think it is the filling because the symptoms fit. "That absolutely cannot be the case!". Replied the doctor. "Well why I asked?" "Fillings do not contain Hg!" he replies.
"Then what do they contain?" "I don't know he said but it is NOT Hg!"
Well, I said, I want to get tested anyway. So he said Ok, but why not test for everything if you are suspicous maybe its something else. We'lltest for Hg, Copper and a whole bunch of other metals.
Unfortunatley he did not order a urine test, the most accurate marker or a challenge test (which would be dangerous anyway). So I forget what the levels of Hg were which wouldn't account for methyl Hg but they were supposedly normal. However, the levels of copper in the blood came back high, measured twice! I understood immediately that the test may have difficulty measuring the Hg burden but that the copper was comming off the filling ( a high copper non-gamma 2)
So actually previously I had gone to the dentist to make an appiontement to get my fillig removed no matter what the doctor had said. he says I need an x-ray. He looks at the x-ray and says, your filling looks fine. I.E no decay. Well I go, I think there may be a problem with Hg I want it replaced anyway. So I actually forgot what he said but he's proably like, if you like the look of composite better that is ok with me.
So after a couple weeks I go into the dentists office. Great I think. If it is the filling and i get it removed I could be cured in a few weeks! So we set up to replace some filling. He wants to do a small one first but I am only interested in two particular old fillings because they are bigger, and I remember that they are the only fillings placed before the symptoms started. No i said, do these two!
So he goes in, and he' drilling and his assistant is leaning over, and I'm thinking, this guy seems to work faster than my other dentist. Well they drill it out and are doing all the water cooling and suction i told them too ( i didn't ask for a mask) and his assistant leans over again and her eyes kind of pop out a little. Then the guy does some more work for a while and says okay sit up. Well I said okay we're taking a break becaue my other dentist never finished that quick! No he says it over. "There was a tremendous amount of decay above one filling and it had gotten to the root which he treated with something to prevent it from dying." " Insuarnce he say's is going to pay for replacing THAT filling. YOu won't have to pay for it!" Gee I guess i must be psychic how did I know there was problem with that filling!
So I leave the office actaully with some amalgams still in figuring that if these were the problems one I could recover in a couple weeks.
But will I recover in he next few weeks, or the next year or the next few years.
TBC.......
Clinton - 19 Sep 2005 06:33 GMT > > Immediately i made an appointment to see the > > doctor and dentist! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > TBC....... Amalgam nightmare part 4.
Well, in fact soon after the appointment, probably within one or two days I did feel some positive affect. Let's say I could tell that something having a negative affect was removed. However, basically all the mental symptoms persisted as well as the physical symptoms. After about 2 weeks though i could tell there was definitely some tangible positive affect.
After about a month there was definitely some improvement, enough for me to realize that I was correct to remove the filling. For example I was able to finish the word jumbles in the paper quicker. However, the majority of the effects still remained, and I began to realize how deep in the hole I really was. I.E. how bad it really was. My idea that I would recover in a few weeks or months to my pre-poisoned self was unrealistic.
Over the course of a year I definitely made improvement, and slowly, in linear fashion the frequent urination went down to the point where after about 14 months it was back to normal. ( Since that time I never had a recurrence of that symptom) That also made it obvious to me that the amalgam was the cause, (apparently Hg buildup in the pituitary affects the water concentration of the kidenys by affecting the dieuretic hormone, causing the problem.) So finally that medical mystery was solved. Thank God.
But a lot of the Hg effects persisted. I.E the neurological affects
Also the recovery is very cyclical where, you feel better for a few hours or a day, then worse, and then better. Even though, overall though you improve so that you when you feel the best it is better than you previous best.
This went on for another 2 years and basically I made some improvement, but it was much less than I had hoped, maybe about 20-40%, and in some areas, like spatical reasoning I was still severly affected even though there was improvement.
I became very upset, even more than before, because I had improved enough to realize that the filling was the cause, but I was still poisoned enough to make me think I would never recover. This was more upset than i had been before, when I had been in a niave hg posioned trance.
i also kept my other few amalgams in during this time because I was sure that the ones i had removed had been the "problem fillings" and I didn't want to expose myself to more hg while there was constant measurable improvement, which there was, even as slow as it was. So even at that point i realized that normally amalgam givess off (significant but small amounts of Hg) and didn't expect that the other fillings would have a big affect if removed since they weren't the "problem fillings" put in before my symptoms started.
(Interestingly i ws in the Bay area during this time. And 1) it turns out that San Jose has a large Hg mine and they would run articles about hg in the bay and hg mining regularly in the SAn JOse mercury news. Also I new that my prevous dentist had disappeared but I didn't know where too. It turns out he was a short distance away, in SF dying of Aids (which I didn't know). IN my Hg poisoned state, if i had known that he was in SF, I could have easily taken the train into SF to confront him. Who knows what would have happened or what my reaction would have been.)
So now, During this time I also became aware that something else have been going on. In fact I had develped a jaw infection which had entered the sinus near where the filling was installed and extending throuth the jaw. The dentist who removed the filling was not aware of this because only a CT scan could show this and his work was limited to the tooth. (I.E. he couldn't see the jaw and the sinus). This caused me to not feel that good in the bay area where the airquality is poor and I noticed the difference when I drove downto SAnta Cruz or visited the east coast.
So realizing that I was Hg poisoned, and felt better in fresh air. (for all i knew maybe fresher air helped to detoxify) i moved back to the EAST Coast.
to make a long story short then, when I got back I did continue to improve and had the other amalgams removed too (apparently some of the had nasty decay under them too). I finally went over to the old dentists office (the office where my dentists records where stored by the the person who bought his practice). Amazingly my records had been removed nearly 6 years before while my sisters and mothers were there. Did the dentist "know" he had messed up. Also another dentiststold me this story about how my dentist had gotten into a fight with his associate, nobody new where he was , he had to be locked out of the practice and one of his holdover employess fired. When i contacted his old associate his simply said that "they had left on bad terms".
My jaw infection got worse to the point where I had a (mainstream) OS do surgery but apparently the bone was soft and the bone was infected. When he extracted a tooth without cleaning it out he spread the infection. So then I got very sick after about six months because the of this hidden infection spreading. (This really wasn't his fault because the bone had been damaged and set up for infection by the large amount of hg leaking from the filling). i am still sick from it and getting treatment and as SB can attest there is a lot of damage to the jaw. I did make a lot of improvement in Hg symptomology howener when another OS cleaned out a huge pockedt of bacteria (probably laced with Hg) near the first filling ot where after about a year I am the best mentally I have been in about 17 years. But now because the jaw infection is chronic and diffictult to treat, that may end up being the worst damage from the hg.
End of story
LadyLollipop - 19 Sep 2005 07:07 GMT >> > Immediately i made an appointment to see the >> > doctor and dentist! [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > End of story Wow, and thank you, Clinton for taking the time for telling us your story.
At this time. let me say. I had surgery on my neck, last Jan. Several spurs were removed, however the pain is now back, they say there are no more spurs, it appears there is arthritis in the neck, but I do not have it anywhere else, that's very strange, and the pain is only on the one side, where I had the cavitation cleaned. So, I am not all together convinced it is all arthritis. Perhaps that jaw bone has been damaged? At any rate, I am seeing a neurologist. I had a nerve block that did not work. What is next? I do not know.
Like you, I get very sick and tired of all the excuses and jokes, after all we have suffered.
Thanks, again, Clinton.
Best to you,
Jan
Clinton - 19 Sep 2005 08:57 GMT > At this time. let me say. I had surgery on my neck, last Jan. Several spurs > were removed, however the pain is now back, they say there are no more > spurs, it appears there is arthritis in the neck, but I do not have it > anywhere else, that's very strange, and the pain is only on the one side, > where I had the cavitation cleaned. So, I am not all together convinced it > is all arthritis. Perhaps that jaw bone has been damaged? There are a lot of cases where people with amalgam problems have developed infection in the jaw nearby. In fact I understand in many cases the amalgam residue is embedded in the jaw when the amalgam is removed. The thing is, that normally the jaw is pretty good at containing infection, but Hg seems to have the ability to damage the bone and bypass the jaws defenses letting the infection in (when it really leaks out of the filling in large amounts). Now I know many people who have jaw infections of the ostemyletic/osteonectrotic type (most not attributed to amalgam though a few are) who THEN develop systematic problems and feel the infection once established in the jaw can spread to other bones/joints, even if the areas of jaw infection are scraped out because it is very difficult to get all the infectin and it tends to recur. Antioboitic treatment can then be beneficial.
LadyLollipop - 19 Sep 2005 09:15 GMT >> At this time. let me say. I had surgery on my neck, last Jan. Several >> spurs [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > are scraped out because it is very difficult to get all the infectin > and it tends to recur. Antioboitic treatment can then be beneficial. I hear you. Blood work shows no sign of infection, that's the problem, however, I have a very understanding young doctor who will listen to me, so I will indeed run this by him again and see what he thinks at this point.
Thanks,
Clinton
Clinton - 20 Sep 2005 00:02 GMT > > are scraped out because it is very difficult to get all the infectin > > and it tends to recur. Antioboitic treatment can then be beneficial. > > I hear you. Blood work shows no sign of infection, that's the problem, > however, I have a very understanding young doctor who will listen to me, so > I will indeed run this by him again and see what he thinks at this point. Actually this problem is discussed on the OM lists a lot. Some infections located in the jaw and sinus actually create biofilms so it is notoriously hard to culture them in the blood. C-protein and sedimenation tests also come back negative at least half time. One reason is when the infection becomes "chronic" your immune system stops responding. So it may be worth your time to research this area more in depth.
> Thanks, > > Clinton LadyLollipop - 20 Sep 2005 01:52 GMT >> > are scraped out because it is very difficult to get all the infectin >> > and it tends to recur. Antioboitic treatment can then be beneficial. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > immune system stops responding. So it may be worth your time to > research this area more in depth. OM lists??
>> Thanks, >> >> Clinton Robert Morien - 20 Sep 2005 05:47 GMT > >> > are scraped out because it is very difficult to get all the infectin > >> > and it tends to recur. Antioboitic treatment can then be beneficial. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >> > >> Clinton to port or starboard?
Clinton - 20 Sep 2005 10:34 GMT time to
> > research this area more in depth. > > OM lists?? Lists that deal with osteomyletis and osteonecrosis. it is not necessary to have "osteomyletis" for the list to be relevant because jaw bone infections are discussed in general.
The main problem is that many types of chronic bone infection are not easy to diagnose with imaging or blood studies and some feel the effects may become systemic. One of the forums is:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/jawosteo/start
LadyLollipop - 20 Sep 2005 21:02 GMT > time to >> > research this area more in depth. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://forums.delphiforums.com/jawosteo/start Thanks again, Clinton,
Jan
LadyLollipop - 16 Sep 2005 02:59 GMT >>>... it makes me even >>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the 60's when I first got my cavites filled. Was there an alternative > available when you first got your teeth fixed? You should learn the history of amalgams and the FACT it should have NEVER been used!!
http://www.wholisticresearch.com/info/artshow.php3?artid=20
Peter Bowditch - 16 Sep 2005 08:55 GMT >>>>... it makes me even >>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://www.wholisticresearch.com/info/artshow.php3?artid=20 So what should have been used in 1830, Jan? Polyurethane? Depleted uranium? Wood? Mild steel? Gutta percha? Solder? Ammonium nitrate?
Suggestions, please, not just dismissal of one alternative.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 16 Sep 2005 21:50 GMT >>>>>... it makes me even >>>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Suggestions, please, not just dismissal of one alternative. NOT mercury!!!!!!!
<snip proven lying websites and spam>
Peter Bowditch - 17 Sep 2005 02:03 GMT >>>>>>... it makes me even >>>>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >NOT mercury!!!!!!! I asked for a suggestion. A "not" is not a suggestion. What you said made as much sense as saying that your suggestion of what to use is "not seaweed", "not testosterone", "not petrified wood", "not George W Bush's DNA", "not Las Vegas casino chips", "not the headlight switch from a Honda Civic", or "not a first folio edition of Shakespeare".
In any case, nobody has ever suggested using mercury as a restorative material for teeth. It is a liquid at body temperature (despite what some anti-mercury loons say), so it would run out if you tilted your head. How you would use it to fill top teeth is a mystery.
There is an infinite number of things which would not be suggested. Please tell us what you would suggest.
><snip proven lying websites and spam> No proof of lies, and no spam. Poor, sad Lollypoop.
 Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
billkatz - 17 Sep 2005 03:01 GMT > There is an infinite number of things which would not be suggested. > Please tell us what you would suggest. People like that can't. Most have not been to the dentist in many, many years.
NASTY!
LadyLollipop - 17 Sep 2005 06:01 GMT >>>>>>>... it makes me even >>>>>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I asked for a suggestion. Frankly, I could care less what you asked for.
A "not" is not a suggestion. What you said
> made as much sense as saying that your suggestion of what to use is > "not seaweed", "not testosterone", "not petrified wood", "not George W [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There is an infinite number of things which would not be suggested. > Please tell us what you would suggest. NO.
>><snip proven lying websites and spam> > > No proof of lies, and no spam. Poor, sad Lollypoop. Your Lies and spam have been proven on MHA.
I see, you are lying again, calling names again, as well as stalking me.
Just one example of your many LIES is proven here.
http://tinyurl.com/bfy38
<snip proven lying websites + spam
Peter Bowditch - 17 Sep 2005 14:31 GMT >>>>>>>>... it makes me even >>>>>>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Frankly, I could care less what you asked for. I know that. I just wanted to illustrate your inability to talk sensibly about amalgam.
> A "not" is not a suggestion. What you said >> made as much sense as saying that your suggestion of what to use is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >NO. So you have no suggestion of an alternative to amalgam which would have been available in 1830, or 1930, or ...
I thought not.
>>><snip proven lying websites and spam> >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >http://tinyurl.com/bfy38 There are no lies there. If you think that there are, please list them.
><snip proven lying websites + spam >  Signature Peter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
LadyLollipop - 18 Sep 2005 05:32 GMT >>>>>>>>>... it makes me even >>>>>>>>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I know that. I just wanted to illustrate your inability to talk > sensibly about amalgam. Yes, I can see you are stalking me and coming here to LIE, since I have said PLENTLY, sensibly, over the years about amalgams.
>> A "not" is not a suggestion. What you said >>> made as much sense as saying that your suggestion of what to use is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I thought not. I could care less what you think.
>>>><snip proven lying websites and spam> >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > There are no lies there. Satan causes people to lie whenever he can.
Genesis 27:19-20, 24. Jacob had to lie again to cover up his first lie
If you think that there are, please list
> them. They are clearly listed, in the URL above.
They have been listed over and over, YOU never could show proof of your claims.
You are in FACT a proven liar.
No need to bring this group into you lying mess over on MHA.
However since you asked.
http://tinyurl.com/9gncq
Now, I suggest, you stop stalking and lying further.
>><snip proven lying websites + spam <snip proven lying websites + spam>
W_B - 16 Sep 2005 15:54 GMT >>>... it makes me even >>madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the 60's when I first got my cavites filled. Was there an alternative >available when you first got your teeth fixed? Gold. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:51 GMT >> Besides, why so hostile? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >in the jaw, and that stuff really does make you mad! especially when it >methylates! Even worse, on occasion it methylmethacrylates .........
> You know when you are poisoned by hg to a signifcant degree >the symptomatic anger really never does go completely away. Then when I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >madder!!, to realize that all this wouldn't have happened if my >dentist and others just had common sense about amalgam! LadyLollipop - 16 Sep 2005 01:37 GMT > Besides, why so hostile? > > Why the name calling, clinton? You might ask that of the other dentists here!
Joel M. Eichen - 16 Sep 2005 02:49 GMT >> Remember to inform the JADA of that. By the way amalgam also >> contains numerous other metals including zinc and copper, in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Mixing silver, mercury and small amounts of copper sounds like a good recipe for an amalgam!
> (another noble >metal) and zinc is not the same as nickel and cadmium. Take a voltage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >No, you have that assbackwards too. LadyLollipop - 16 Sep 2005 00:02 GMT > Metals are rated on what is called a Scale of Nobility, which simply > means the materials ability to resist corrosion. There is also a chart [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Dentists have to pass numerous chemistry classes before they become > licensed. Amalgamists, obviously, -- don't! NOW, if they only had to pass a HONESTY test!!!!
What you left out!
****The fluids of the mouth that act as electrolytes are the saliva****
WHICH IS WHAT CLINTON ALREADY SAID!!!!!!!!!
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/galv.html
http://www.testfoundation.org/Gold-Amalgam.htm
GOLD-AMALGAM IN CONTACT
Citations from literature
Edited and translated by
Mats Hanson
# ... it is evident that metallic contacts between gold fillings and silver amalgam fillings must be considered malpractice since under such conditions a direct local element is formed with corresponding voltages and corrosive conditions (Reply from Bundesgesundheitsamt 14.02.1980 to an inquiry from the consumer organization Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Verbraucher, Bonn)
#This amalgam is destructive to gold fillings and plate. The strong affinity of gold for mercury, renders this amalgam destructive to gold fillings or plate. I have seen in several instances the teeth which were clasped to secure the plate, filled with mercurial paste, and in each instance the clasp was literally eaten off at this point. To demonstrate this effect, we need only rub a piece of gold with the amalgam, when the surface will immediately become white to the extent that the amalgam of gold is formed. This amalgam like that of silver is oxydable and easily removed; gold plugs and plate are not only subject to this destructive process, from actual contact of the amalgam in its primitive form, but several salts formed from the oxydation of these cement fillings, and which are held in solution by the saliva, are also destructive to gold. Westcott: Report on Mineral Paste, The American Journal of Dental Science vol IV, 1844, 175-193
#Occasionally, a gold inlay is placed in contact with an adjacent proximal amalgam restoration, or an amalgam filling is placed in an opposing tooth, or perhaps a gold clasp touches an amalgam restoration. All such procedures are almost sure to cause a corrosion of of the amalgam, since an electrocouple with considerable elevtromotive force is produced between the gold alloy and the amalgam (approximately 500 millivolts). Mercury is sometimes found in the gold alloy, which is thereby weakened. Such a condition is always a hazard to the health of the patient. When couples of this nature are studied under laboratory conditions, the amalgam corrodes, regardless of a polished surface or a protective tarnish film. (The Science of Dental Materials, E.W. Skinner, 3:e ed. 1948, W.B. Saunders Co, Phil. & Lond.) (Changed in the next edition to: such conditions should be avoided)
#...older man, who besides many amalgam fillings, had a gold crown in his mouth, something dentistry considers not allowable because of the possible galvanic processes, but dentists often ignore in practice. 11,2 µg Hg in 780 cm3 urine (14,4 µg/l). He had had stomatitis for several years and also other symptoms indicating mercury poisoning. (Stock A & Cucuel F der Quecksilberhalt der menschlichen Ausscheidungen und des menschlichen Blutes. Zeitschr angew. Chemie 47, 1934, 641-7)
#Amalgam and gold close together is, because of the then occurring electrolytic degradation process in the mouth, especially dangerous and should be avoided. (Stock A. Die Gefährlichkeit des Quecksilberdampfes und der Amalgame, Zeitschr angew. Chemie 39, 1926, 984-989)
#One should especially avoid placing amalgam plombs in the vicinity of metals (genuine gold fillings, gold bridges and bridges and plates of false gold). In such cases electrolytic currents will occur, which also degrade the deeper parts of the amalgam fillings and can cause the evaporation of larger amounts of mercury. (F. Gradewitz, (dentist) Zeitschr angew. Chemie 39, 1926 788-9)
#The erratic variation of current that we found when we plotted the Evans diagrams of gold alloy coupled with an amalgam alloy also can be explained as a succession of deterioration and reconstruction of the corrosion film. Our conclusion is that a clinical amalgam restoration in contact with a gold crown, could corrode continously at a high rate. (Study of the electrochemical behavior of gold dental alloys. Brugirard J, Bargain R, Dupuy JC, Mazille H & Monnier G Study of the electrochemical behavior of gold dental alloys J. Dent. Res 52, 1973, 828-836)
#Cracks in gold crowns cemented on amalgam.... explanation can be mercury diffusing into the grain boundaries in regions where there was contact between amalgam and gold. In this study corrosion products derived from amalgam were identified in the main cracks.... The small area of amalgam exposed to the oral cavity through the cracks will give a small anode and a big cathode, and this will cause accelerated corrosion of the amalgam. The corrosion causes the release of metallic ions, which can cause problems for some individuals. In this case the gold crowns were obtained from patients with symptoms such as a metallic taste from the teeth before extraction. It is not known how common cracks in gold crowns are, but we believe that many cracks have not been detected simply because no one has looked for them. (Ode'n A & Tullberg M, Cracks in gold crowns cemented on amalgam restorations Acta Odont Scand 43 1985 15-17)
#Gold and amalgam placed in contact in the oral cavity will cause galvanic currents and increased corrosion of the amalgam, with release of metal ions. The corrosion of the amalgam may reduce its strength and cause increased marginal breakdown of the filling. The electric currents and possibly also the release of metal ions may cause oral discomfort in certain individuals.... In clinical use, an amalgam restoration may come into contact with a crown or a bridge several times larger, which must be regarded as particularly unfavorable. (Holland, R.I. Galvanic currents between gold and amalgam Scand. J. Dent. Res. 88, 1989 269-272).
# Contact between two different alloys thus enhance corrosion. Under such circumstances a galvanic element in the mouth is formed where the two metals constitute the poles and the saliva the electrolyte. Galvanism, electrocorrosion are different names for the same phenomenon. A gold restoration, repaired with amalgam, causes considerable corrosion, especially of the amalgam and produces noticable changes in the amalgam and also in the gold. An amalgam post under a gold crown also leads to corrosion. Thus, amalgam should not be used to fill cavities in the presence of gold at the cavity margin or occlusally afte endodontic treatment through a gold crown. If it should be necessary to use amalgam for this purpose because of difficulties to introduce some othe material, (e.g. composites), it should be non-gamma2-amalgam, since this corrodes slightly less than other amalgams. If there is a contact between two different amalgam types, a non-gamm2 and one of another type, the older type corrodes extensively. I a gold crown is prepared on an amalgam core, changes on the inner surface can be recognized with the naked eyes. Mixing different types of metals in the same oral cavity should, if possible, be avoided. (Söremark, R. Biological aspects of dental materials, Compendium, inst. Prostetics, Dept of Dent, Karolinska Inst. Sth).
# In the laboratory and clinically we study the proneness to corrode when commonly used dental alloys are combined. The results show very large differences in corrosion rate between different combinations. The conclusion is that certain dental alloys should not be combined in the same mouth (Söremark, R. Oral Galvanism - vad är det?, KI-Journalen (Karolinska Inst.) no.1 1982 17-17)
# Two or more metals, in the same environment, may cause electrochemical processes such as galvanic cell corrosion and currents. Several investigations have shown that the use of different metals as restorative materials in the same mouth can cause not only symptoms of 'galvanic pain' and patological lesions on the soft tissue, but also deterioration of the used materials and distribution of corrosion products into the tissues.
Cast gold alloy and amalgam are often used for dental restorations in the same mouth. Galvanic corrosion resulting from contact between amalgam and gold has been studied by several workers. Schoonover & Souder reported that gold tarnished and amalgam corroded, when they were placed in contact and kept in a sodium cloride solution for six months.
..In spite of these established facts and the oral symptoms caused by electrochemical effects, it is still common practise to mix different alloys as restorative materials in the same mouth and even in the same tooth. (Arvidson K., In vitro corrosion studies of a dental gold alloy in contact with cohesive gold and amalgam Swed. Dent J. 68 1975 41-45).
# Mixing different restorative alloys may give rise to electrochemical processes, such as currents and galvanic corrosion, causing more or less pronounced destruction of the alloys, and pathologic changes in the surrounding soft tissues. As a consequence, restorations of gold and amalgam, in contact with each other, have been contraindicated. (Arvidson, K. Corrosion studies of a dental gold alloy in contact with amalgam under different conditions Swed Dent J 68 1975 135-139).
#Although dissimilar metals not in contact have received most attention, it is not uncommon to find two or more dissimilar metals so placed in the oral cavity as to be in direct contact with or in close proximity to each other. Such a practice will most certainly be conductive to galvanic action, as will be demonstrated by experiments to be described later in this paper. ... polished amalgam disks and plates of a dental gold alloy...If, however, the above mentioned metals are placed in contact with or in close proximity to each other, for example separated by a liquid film, corrosion of one or both of the metals does occur. In dental practice, examples which fulfil the requirements for this typ of galvanic action are 1. two metals connected by bridgework; 2 two metals in corresponding upper and lower teeth, and 3; two metals next to each other in adjacent teeth.... A polished amalgam disk and a plate of dental gold were so arranged in a 1 percent solution of sodium chloride that contact between them could be periodically interrupted each minute. Corrosion of the amalgam began immediately...amalgam and gold in contact...Corrosion began immediately on the surface the amagam. A white flocculent precipitate was formed. After approximately six months, the amalgams and gold were removed from the solution and examined. The amalgams were badly corroded and contained many pits, which were distributed at random over the surface. In some, cases, pits were found on the side of the amalgam not in contact with the gold alloy. Corrosion was most severe on the amalgam at the points where the edges of the gold came in contact with the amalgam.
#Dissimilar metals i contact constitute a hazard and should be examined for evidence of corrosion... The possibility that the patient may be allergic to metal ions formed from corrosion cells should be considered whenever disturbances are thought to arise from the presence of dissimilar metals or from a corroding amalgam. ...in some cases, corrosion was so severe that the amalgam had apparently lost much of its strength and could be crumbled between the fingers. (Schoonover IC & Souder W, National Bureau of Standards, USA, Corrosion of dental alloys J. Amer Dent a.s 28 1941 1278-1291).
# The third effect that has been reported was the corrosion of restorations due to galvanic current. The potential difference between gold and amalgam in saliva has been reported to be as great as 0.5 volts and some corrosion of amalgam is considered possible. Schoonover and Souder have reported that gold restorations were corroded by mercury released from amalgam fillings because of an electrochemical reaction. Since then most dental textbooks have recommended against the use of gold in contact with amalgam in the mouth. It is a fact, however, that many dental clinicians are routinely using them in contact with each other. Thus, there seems to be some discordance between past basic experiments and clinical practice. (Fusayama T et al Corrosion of gold and amalgam placed in contact with each other, J. Dent. Res 42 1963 1183-1197).
#Finally we strongly recommend the absolute avoidance of contact between metals with large potential differences like gold alloys and silver amalgam. (Laetzsch E Ist es bei zahnärztlich-prothetischen Behandlungen erforderlich, einen einheitligen metallischen Werkstoff anzuwenden? Dtsch Stomatol 22 1972 183-188)
# The placement of an amalgam restoration adjacent to a gold inlay seems to be contraindicated. Phillips Elements of Dental Materials WB Saunders Co 1977
# If two fillings, wet with saliva, are connected through an ordinary microammeter or galvanometer... Early workers reported such currents to be as much as 50 microamperes, and even much more in some cases. These facts indicate that contacts between metallic fillings in place in teeth, must be avoided. If necessary a plastic plug may be inserted in one of them at the point of contact.....The many case histories that have been reported in the literature lead one to conclude that serious pathologic conditions in the oral cavity have been caused by metallic dental fillings. There appears to be no evidence that such conditions are caused directly by the electric current. However, if the subject happens to exhibit hypersensitivity to certain metallic ions supplied by the dental fillings, then, since the electric current hastyens the solution of the fillings and assists in transporting the ions to and through the tissues, it may exert an indirect detrimental effect on the subject. Schriever W & Diamond LE J. Dent Res 31, 1952, 205-229
# The presence of silver-tin-amalgam in the immediate neighborhood of gold will enhance the corrosion of the amalgam. Harndt E Dtsch Zahärztl Wschr 33 1930 564
#On examination of mouths, it was found, for example, that if the patient has gold and amalgam in his mouth, the amalgam acts as the positive pole, giving out calcium (from the tooth; transl. comment.) and producing decay. Gradually, the amalgam itself is destroyed....When two contigous teeth, or two corresponding upper and lower ones, contain different metals, they are liable to destruction. Wakai E JADA 23 1936 1000-6
# When amalgam is brought into contact with a plate of dental gold alloy in a 1 % sodium chloride solution at 37 degrees a very severe corrosion occurs which after a few days results in formation of substantial amounts of corrosion products.....in addition to the loose, powderlike corrosion products, minute drops of mercury. Jörgensen, K.D. Acta Odont Scand 23 1965 347-8
george1234 - 15 Sep 2005 13:45 GMT >"george1234" <george1234pds@excite.com> wrote in message
>> Back on topic, you have not adressed the problem of contradictiory >> evidence.
>Wrong. I did address it,.. >Here it is again: >*The difference for the direct counter was >the sake of an *argument* >I am not interested in any *argument* That's not adressing the question, that's misdirecting and ignoring the question
To restate: how do you adress the contradictory evidence of amalgam filling over a gold crown that does not produce the symptoms you describe ( electric jolts to the jaw)?
And do please refrain from name calling , it makes you look floolish
george1234 - 13 Sep 2005 17:49 GMT >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent >gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced >intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery". OK... let;'s stipulate this is a fact for sake of argument.
Now let's look at contradictory evidence. I have a large amalgam filling ( tooth 2) over a gold grown ( tooth 30 and 31). They've been ther for about 25 years, and I never experienced the symptoms you describe.
On the face of it, that would eliminate the galvanic reaction between gold and amalgam.
( I know i'm going to regret this)
carabelli - 13 Sep 2005 18:57 GMT > >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent > >gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ( I know i'm going to regret this) Obvioiusly, you're in denial.
carabelli
Clinton - 14 Sep 2005 16:32 GMT > >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent > >gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ther for about 25 years, and I never experienced the symptoms you > describe. You moron. Every configuration of amalgam placement is different. the chemical concentration/condensation of the amalgam and or crown could be different. The placement, paths of saliva conduction, saliva ph, and acidic breakown from bacteria as well as mineral/acid interactions from local tooth loss, or even immune system interaction and or crevice corrosion (which is real and can create strong acids simple from scavanging mechanisms in sealed or statica areas near the amalgam) couild all create various different states of chemical breakdown and galvanic interaction. gold will even interact with amalgam if they are separated by cement. Once corrision sets in high copper amalgams it is also exponential with depth and certainly would result in a wide variety of states of galvanic interaction. Only in your dipsidoddle dumbass world does you "counter example prove anything. In fact even the manufactuing sheets warn agains placing gold near amalgams. It should give anyone chills that someone like you is handling and placing a Hg material in their children and makes monkies out of people like my who ever put any trust in their dentist or thought they would have enough remedial intellegience to appreciate the basic dangers of the toxic material they were handling.
> On the face of it, that would eliminate the galvanic reaction between > gold and amalgam. On the face of it proves your a simpleton. Simpletons shouldn't handle or regulate Hg containing products
george1234 - 14 Sep 2005 17:51 GMT > Every configuration of amalgam placement is different. So you sddispute the OP's position that amalgam is the problem. This argiument suggests dsomething else is the problem
W_B - 13 Sep 2005 17:34 GMT >I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her >to eat tomatoes before she wakes up Snooze.... --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Stovepipe - 14 Sep 2005 04:52 GMT > >... > >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her > to eat tomatoes before she wakes up Gentlemen, we can rebuild her....we HAVE the technology.... better than she was b/4... better.... stronger.... faster!!!!!
and the voltmeter shoots up to 60Volts.
SP
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LadyLollipop - 14 Sep 2005 05:54 GMT >> >... >> >traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> I'd call that a wake up call... now the only problem is how to get her >> to eat tomatoes before she wakes up <snip>
The problem is the usual one, you snipped and pick out a certain part, so you could belittle.
So very typical.
So exactly which part of Trigeminal neuralgia, do you find, funny?
Did you find the jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve, to be funny?
Did you note that replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem?
Did you note Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown?
I thought not. None of that matters to you, you are just a troll, here to harass. http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html
Trigeminal neuralgia linked to amalgam fillings JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA. Dr. William Cheshire, a physician at the Mayo Clinic, reports on a case where a woman's trigeminal neuralgia (tic douloureux) was traced to a galvanic reaction between an amalgam filling and an adjacent gold-alloy crown. Consumption of tomatoes and other acidic foods produced intense jolts described as being like those of an "electrical battery". The jolts in turn resulted in excruciating pain in the trigeminal nerve. Replacing the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire points out that dissimilar metals in contact with saliva can form a galvanic cell which can generate electrical currents with several hundred millivolts of potential. He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his patient's neuralgia may well have been triggered by the galvanic reaction between the amalgam filling and the gold crown. Cheshire, William P., Jr. The shocking tooth about trigeminal neuralgia. New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 (correspondence)
> SP Stovepipe - 14 Sep 2005 13:55 GMT > He points out that many patients with trigeminal neuralgia > describe their pain in terms of "electrical" jolts and concludes that his [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 342, June 29, 2000, p. 2003 > (correspondence) This article would be interesting to get a hold of... Does anybody out there get the NEJM?
Thanks SP
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Doc Holiday - 13 Sep 2005 08:03 GMT > Replacing > the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the > amalgam filling and the gold crown. cut
Actually he made the wrong conclusion :)
He should have left the amalgam filling and change the gold crown with a ceramic crown which would have had the same effect...
Doc
LadyLollipop - 13 Sep 2005 08:58 GMT >> Replacing >> the amalgam filling with a composite resolved the problem. Dr. Cheshire [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Doc So you say, and you were a doctor at Mayo's when?
Peter Meiers - 13 Sep 2005 19:20 GMT Doc Holiday schrieb:
> Actually he made the wrong conclusion :) > > He should have left the amalgam filling and change the gold crown with a > ceramic crown which would have had the same effect... He _could_ have left ...
Wyatt Earp
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