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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / September 2005

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another is it a cavity post...

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XYZ - 05 Sep 2005 01:42 GMT
hmm..  my situation is a little different than darkwings

i went to the dentist on friday for a cleaning. one of my bottom molars had
been hurting on and off for the past 6 months. after the cleaning, the
hygeinist prodded around checking for cavities when i noticed she hit the
molar that was bothering me more than a few times, and one time it seemed
like it was stuck in there (it seemed think she almost took her hand off the
tool and it stuck there for a second) she didn't really say anything except
"hmmm.."  and then she left and the dentist came in to give me about a 45
second check-up and said everything was fine. i didn't really ask about the
tooth since he said everything was ok, but now a few days later the tooth is
still bothering me and i'm wondering the dentist overlooked it? and if i
should go through the hassle of going back to the office.  any opinions??

thanks- krista
Joel344 - 05 Sep 2005 02:59 GMT
I would definitely go back .... there could be huge trouble a brewin
... fluoride makes enamel so hard that we occasionally miss cavitie
.. while inside the entire tooth can be rotting away .... root cana
.. post .. .crown .... Ugh!

Joel M. Eichen DD

--
Joel34
XYZ - 05 Sep 2005 14:10 GMT
eeek!  way to scare the crap outta me :)  an xray would show if there was a
big underlying problem right?

> I would definitely go back .... there could be huge trouble a brewin'
> ... fluoride makes enamel so hard that we occasionally miss cavities
> .. while inside the entire tooth can be rotting away .... root canal
> .. post .. .crown .... Ugh!
>
> Joel M. Eichen DDS
Joel M. Eichen - 05 Sep 2005 21:02 GMT
Often times YES .. .and its better to be safe than sorry when trying
to prevent root canals!

>eeek!  way to scare the crap outta me :)  an xray would show if there was a
>big underlying problem right?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Joel M. Eichen DDS
Peter Meiers - 05 Sep 2005 17:13 GMT
> ...
> .... fluoride makes enamel so hard that we occasionally miss cavities

What has "hardness" to do with acid resistance?
It would only have a meaning for bacteria dancing around and singing "If
I had a hammer ..."

Peter
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 18:56 GMT
> > ...
> > .... fluoride makes enamel so hard that we occasionally miss cavities
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Peter

JME is right, if perhaps loose with his terminology. Since the use of
fuoride to combat carious attack, the bacteria have taken to attacking
deep inside the fissures and grooves that naturally criscross the
occlusal surface of teeth. This causes deep and latreally spreading
caries that are not necessarily visible on the surface of the tooth. The
DiagnoDent was developed chiefly to sniff out this type of caries, I
think.

Cheers
SP
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XYZ - 05 Sep 2005 19:33 GMT
> JME is right, if perhaps loose with his terminology. Since the use of
> fuoride to combat carious attack, the bacteria have taken to attacking
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Cheers
> SP

hmm..that's interesting.  i just did some googling on the diagnodent.  are
the readings really 90% accurate?  i wonder if i should try to seek out a
dentist w/ one... maybe that could explain why i have pain in a couple teeth
but keep getting "cavity free" checkups from my technologically slow
dentist? i do have lots of little shadows, pits and grooves on my teeth.
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 20:23 GMT
> i wonder if i should try to seek out a
> dentist w/ one... maybe that could explain why i have pain in a couple teeth

Why not just ask him to buy one? Or get a second opinion. You really
can't lose by talking to your present dentist and ask him to reassess.
SP
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Joel M. Eichen - 05 Sep 2005 21:05 GMT
>> i wonder if i should try to seek out a
>> dentist w/ one... maybe that could explain why i have pain in a couple teeth
>
>Why not just ask him to buy one? Or get a second opinion. You really
>can't lose by talking to your present dentist and ask him to reassess.
>SP

Or .. .the poor man's Daignodent ... the SSW (White) Fissurotomy bur!.

Joel
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 23:06 GMT
> >Why not just ask him to buy one? Or get a second opinion. You really
> >can't lose by talking to your present dentist and ask him to reassess.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Joel

True enough
SP
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cozyhomelife - 08 Sep 2005 14:51 GMT
I had the same kind of thing going on with my dentist.   I went in with sore
teeth that I even told him about and he kept telling me everything is fine.
I finally went to another dentist and he did find all kinds of problems with
the very teeth I was suspicious of without me even telling him.   I only had
2 worked on at once, but by now, it's not sure if the crown on the tooth
that actually had cracked will work without the  root canal.   If the other
dentist had paid attention when I told him YEARS ago that I couldn't chew on
it, that tooth could have been fixed with a better chance.    If your
dentist is missing things that even you suspect, get a second opinion fast,
before your teeth end up further gone, like I did.    I had been telling him
for years that when I bit down on that tooth, it felt soft like it wouldn't
hold up to biting on something.  Later, when it actually cracked and I told
him that if I so much as got a rice krispy between it and bit down, that the
pain was so sharp I would scream out, he just said, "sometimes teeth act
like that".   Now, if only I had had a good dentist when it was just feeling
like it wasn't going to hold up.   Oh, and it had  filling, which had rotted
out more under it.
    It was that tooth that is wearing a temporary crown that bugs me enough
that I came here to here opinions about, which I'm very grateful for.
   I had just had another cavity/problem free checkup from the other
dentist, and I KNEW I had more than one problem which he dismissed, even
after I told him I couldn't chew on it, or why does this area look like
blah, blah.    I came home from that appointment and got a magnifying mirror
and looked in my mouth _again_.   Yea, still there, the old silver cavities
that looked chipped around the edges on several teeth that he didn't even
mention anything about.   I remember him saying the word 'watch' to the girl
to write down about several teeth.   Now I have to wonder why they are
watching them, what for?  For them to need to be pulled?   Because they sure
didn't bother to fix anything, just waiting for them to get WORSE.    So, I
went to the other dentist, first thinking of the tooth that made me scream
when I bite on it by mistake, with a little plastic prod that he told me to
softly bite on, he found the bad crack in a few minutes.    I was really not
surprised to hear the news.   Then he said, but... it would be good if you
came in for a complete workup..because I really can't tell you all the
problems I'm seeing at this time.   You know, I really wasn't surprised
again.     It is true that I dislike the woman who runs the office for her
zeal in pushing you to try to get it all done at once, but nevertheless, I
believe all those things are wrong, because I was seeing them in the mirror
myself before I ever saw him.   SO!   What I mean is, if you know something
is wrong and he's missing it, don't wait, like I did, because the problem
keeps getting worse over time.

Signature

Happiness doesn't come from having things, it comes from *having things you
can find* :)

>
> > JME is right, if perhaps loose with his terminology. Since the use of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> but keep getting "cavity free" checkups from my technologically slow
> dentist? i do have lots of little shadows, pits and grooves on my teeth.
Joel M. Eichen - 08 Sep 2005 15:09 GMT
>I had the same kind of thing going on with my dentist.   I went in with sore
>teeth that I even told him about and he kept telling me everything is fine.

YUP....

>I finally went to another dentist and he did find all kinds of problems with
>the very teeth I was suspicious of without me even telling him.   I only had
>2 worked on at once, but by now, it's not sure if the crown on the tooth
>that actually had cracked will work without the  root canal.   If the other
>dentist had paid attention when I told him YEARS ago that I couldn't chew on
>it, that tooth could have been fixed with a better chance.

YUP, we got to listen to our patients ... thanks for the reminder.

>   If your
>dentist is missing things that even you suspect, get a second opinion fast,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>pain was so sharp I would scream out, he just said, "sometimes teeth act
>like that".  

Exactly. A cracked tooth can often not be detected but the patient
always knows!

> Now, if only I had had a good dentist when it was just feeling
>like it wasn't going to hold up.   Oh, and it had  filling, which had rotted
>out more under it.

Or, the enamel was already cracked ... possibly the damage was ALREADY
done.

>     It was that tooth that is wearing a temporary crown that bugs me enough
>that I came here to here opinions about, which I'm very grateful for.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>mention anything about.   I remember him saying the word 'watch' to the girl
>to write down about several teeth.

The shampoo girl?

>   Now I have to wonder why they are
>watching them, what for?  For them to need to be pulled?  
WATCH for the patient to get ...... better insurance .....  better job
........ etc.

> Because they sure
>didn't bother to fix anything, just waiting for them to get WORSE.    So, I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>problems I'm seeing at this time.   You know, I really wasn't surprised
>again.     It is true that I dislike the woman who runs the office for her

What is HER relationship to the doctor, and where do they prefer to
have dinner?

>zeal in pushing you to try to get it all done at once, but nevertheless, I
>believe all those things are wrong, because I was seeing them in the mirror
>myself before I ever saw him.   SO!   What I mean is, if you know something
>is wrong and he's missing it, don't wait, like I did, because the problem
>keeps getting worse over time.

Good diagnosticians are KEY!

Joel M. Eichen DDS
Peter Meiers - 05 Sep 2005 20:24 GMT
Hi Stovepipe,

> JME is right, if perhaps loose with his terminology. Since the use of
> fuoride to combat carious attack, the bacteria have taken to attacking
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> DiagnoDent was developed chiefly to sniff out this type of caries, I
> think.

I still doubt that fluoride has much to do with that. Couldn´t it be
that a cavity starts in (and spreads into the tooth from) a small area
at a distal or mesial surface where it can´t be seen easily because
maybe two molars are too close to another and hide the initial lesion?
No matter what the fluoride status of such a tooth is.

What facts would favor a fluoride involvement?

Cheers,
Peter
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 20:34 GMT
> What facts would favor a fluoride involvement?

The fluoride is NOT involved, AFAIK. Deep in the pits and fissures is
the only area of the tooth (apart from the interproximal, as you said)
that isn't effectively covered by fluoride. So that is where the caries
starts. So fluoride has had the effect of forcing the bacterial to go
deeper into those fissures to survive. I don't really think that
fluoride has altered the bacteria to any degree, but I don't know that
for certain.

Cheers back at ya, PM!
SP
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Joel M. Eichen - 05 Sep 2005 21:06 GMT
>Hi Stovepipe,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>that a cavity starts in (and spreads into the tooth from) a small area
>at a distal or mesial surface where it can´t be seen easily because

Nope, good guess but wrong. Dentists are aware of the triangular
shaped carious lesion that occurs when what you describe happens.

This is why we take bite-wing x-rays ... to detect exactly what you
described.

Joel

>maybe two molars are too close to another and hide the initial lesion?
>No matter what the fluoride status of such a tooth is.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Cheers,
>Peter
Joel M. Eichen - 05 Sep 2005 21:04 GMT
>> ...
>> .... fluoride makes enamel so hard that we occasionally miss cavities
>
>What has "hardness" to do with acid resistance?

Glad you asked. The way teeth form is from "lobes." Four lobes, or
cusps come together but unfortunately there is a teensy space betweeen
the lobes or cusps. Well to the bacteria that's like an Interstate
highway!

So they percolate inside and attack the softer, inner structure.

Teeth almost never decay through the tops of cusps ... .they can decay
through the sides of teeth where enamel is thinner.

Joel

>It would only have a meaning for bacteria dancing around and singing "If
>I had a hammer ..."
>
>Peter
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 04:19 GMT
> hmm..  my situation is a little different than darkwings
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> thanks- krista

You paid for a cleaning and an exam. I would phone and ask to speake to
the hygienist who treated you. Ask her to talk to the dentist, so when
he has you back in, you don't pay for it. This is a subtle way for you
to tell them to get their communication act together. There is no one
who can know the mouth like the person who does the cleaning. So the
hygienist saw things that she should have told the dentist to check.
Otherwise, what is the use of him coming in to see you at all?

I think you deserve to have that tooth checked and a real diagnosis
posed on it.

JMO
SP
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XYZ - 05 Sep 2005 14:13 GMT
> You paid for a cleaning and an exam. I would phone and ask to speake to
> the hygienist who treated you. Ask her to talk to the dentist, so when
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> JMO
> SP

thanks for the response.  it was definitely odd she didn't say anything to
the dentist about it, but i guess a big part is my fault for not speaking up
and just asking about it.  i'll definitely go back to have it checked.  will
it seem weird though if i call and ask to speak to the hygienist?  i dont
want her to think i'm getting her in trouble or something.  sigh.
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 17:49 GMT
> thanks for the response.  it was definitely odd she didn't say anything to
> the dentist about it, but i guess a big part is my fault for not speaking up
> and just asking about it.  i'll definitely go back to have it checked.  will
> it seem weird though if i call and ask to speak to the hygienist?  i dont
> want her to think i'm getting her in trouble or something.  sigh.

Then ask to speak to the dentist. The whole point is to get them to
communicate and get your tooth fixed.
SP
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Joel M. Eichen - 05 Sep 2005 21:08 GMT
OK I am missing something ... why aren't they talking? How long have
they been going out and does the dentist's wife know about this yet?

Joel

>> thanks for the response.  it was definitely odd she didn't say anything to
>> the dentist about it, but i guess a big part is my fault for not speaking up
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>communicate and get your tooth fixed.
>SP
Stovepipe - 05 Sep 2005 23:06 GMT
> OK I am missing something ... why aren't they talking? How long have
> they been going out and does the dentist's wife know about this yet?
>
> Joel

Maybe that _is_ the problem: maybe they're married when they should be
seeing mistresses and lovers in secret. So they're in a love spat, and
so they're not communicating. Maybe they're secretly part of an
underground terrorist organization bent on fluoridating water based
interior house paints...

Ya gotta consider these things...

SP
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Joel M. Eichen - 06 Sep 2005 04:28 GMT
>> OK I am missing something ... why aren't they talking? How long have
>> they been going out and does the dentist's wife know about this yet?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>SP

Yup, there is more than meets the eye ... ALWAYS.
Joel M. Eichen - 06 Sep 2005 12:21 GMT
>>> OK I am missing something ... why aren't they talking? How long have
>>> they been going out and does the dentist's wife know about this yet?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Yup, there is more than meets the eye ... ALWAYS.

Ummmmm. Those dental hygienists!
 
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