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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / October 2005Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams
It appears that many dentists are only able to discuss the electrical behavior of dental amalgams in terms of "galvanic activity" (after Luigi Galvani, who did some pioneering work in electrolysis). However, it has been known for more than 150 years that when an electrical conductor moves in an electromagnetic field then an electrical potential is induced in the conductor, and that when a stationary conductor is subjected to a varying electromagnetic field then an electrical potential is again induced in the conductor; and it is not necessary in either case for there to be any electrolysis taking place in order for this to happen. (It was Michael Faraday who demonsrated the laws of electromagnetic induction in the 1830s.) The materials used in restorative dentistry are not exempt from the laws of nature. Does anyone know if it is possible to determine whether or not certain types of electromagnetic field are able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads as a result of faradaic activity in the amalgam fillings in their teeth? Keith P Walsh PS, for a definition of the word "faradaic" go to: http://www.allwords.com/word-faradaic.html > Does anyone know if it is possible to determine whether or not certain > types of electromagnetic field are able to dissipate electrical energy > through the nerves in people's heads as a result of faradaic activity > in the amalgam fillings in their teeth? So you state a thesis and want others to validate it for you? Robert Morien wrote: > > Does anyone know if it is possible to determine whether or not certain > > types of electromagnetic field are able to dissipate electrical energy > > through the nerves in people's heads as a result of faradaic activity > > in the amalgam fillings in their teeth? > > So you state a thesis and want others to validate it for you? There are people who postulate that the type of metal amalgam which is formed by mixing liquid mercury with grains of a solid metal alloy at room temperature and allowing the mixture to harden is a suitable material for dentists to use for placing fillings in their patients' teeth. I am certain that it is incumbent upon these people to have first taken all reasonable steps to demonstrate that such a material is not able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads as a result of its electromagnetic (or "faradaic") behavior. Do you know if any of them ever have? Keith P Walsh PS, for a definition of the word "faradaic" go to: http://www.allwords.com/word-faradaic.html >able to >dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads Always like this particular 'scientific' lingo... >the nerves in people's heads Which ones ? They all have names. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com <ahem.. caugh... caugh...> Well... just off the tippy top of my unusually flat head, I'd say that the 2nd and 3rd divisions of the Trigeminal (Cranial Nerve V) would be a good place to start... Then we could put pipette electrodes into the Mesencephalic Neucleus of CN V and measure the activity there as well... So... who amoung alla' youse wanna get their haid drilled jes' behind and above the ears...?.... ;-) SP  SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> >able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >SP Too late, already been done. <g> -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >So... who amoung alla' youse wanna get their haid drilled jes' behind > >and above the ears...?.... ;-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > W_B So was it 350 mV???? SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >So... who amoung alla' youse wanna get their haid drilled jes' behind >> >and above the ears...?.... ;-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >So was it 350 mV???? >SP Could only get 349mV -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B Wrote: > Could only get 349mV > -- > > W_B > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I get FM radio on mine ;) Signaturebillkatz >W_B Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I get FM radio on mine ;) Dang, I need a better tin foil hat... -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Shhhhh! Don't tell anybody! http://zapatopi.net/afdb/ "An Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie (AFDB) is a type of headwear that can shield your brain from most electromagnetic psychotronic mind control carriers. AFDBs are inexpensive (even free if you don't mind scrounging for thrown-out aluminium foil) and can be constructed by anyone with at least the dexterity of a chimp (maybe bonobo). This cheap and unobtrusive form of mind control protection offers real security to the masses. Not only do they protect against incoming signals, but they also block most forms of brain scanning and mind reading, keeping the secrets in your head truly secret. AFDBs are safe and operate automatically. All you do is make it and wear it and you're good to go! Plus, AFDBs are stylish and comfortable." >Plus, AFDBs are stylish and comfortable." I love it ! -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Sounds like the world should be pretty perfect, where everybody can control incoming signals. Should come with a guarantee, and the stock would go up, up, for Reynolds, especially the heavy duty. And to think my tin foil is sitting idle on the shelf. Gail "billkatz" > Shhhhh! Don't tell anybody! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can shield your brain from most electromagnetic psychotronic mind > control carriers. "billkatz" > Shhhhh! Don't tell anybody! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can shield your brain from most electromagnetic psychotronic mind > control carriers. COMMENT. Re: AFDB Is this related to ABFD? :-) Be a proud supporter of the American Board of Family Dentistry. I you're not a member yet please become one. www.theabfd.com Check it out! (Yes. This is a nonpaid advertisement. ABFD is non profit organization o caring dentists) -- Su Another good link: (Institute of Family Dentistry) www.family-dentist.org/familydentistryspeaker.htm Sue SignatureSue >"billkatz" >> Shhhhh! Don't tell anybody! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >(Yes. This is a nonpaid advertisement. ABFD is non profit organization of >caring dentists). Post it again and you will be reported for spam. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Shhhhh! Don't tell anybody! In a past life I was involved with the testing of computers and other electronic devices to ensure they meet EEC and FCC emissions standards. We always took a roll of aluminium foil along with us when we went dow the salt mine. We used it to cover holes and slots in the equipment cases temporarily to see if they were the source of stray emissions. It works! > Robert Morien wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > http://www.allwords.com/word-faradaic.html You're still trying to get people to prove your thesis. Which isn't their responsibility. Can you prove your thesis without using lolly logic? >> Robert Morien wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > their responsibility. Can you prove your thesis without using lolly > logic? Oh my, Robert is still having a lolly fix,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He isn't intersted in the subject of *dental amalgams* *What* is his interest here? > >> Robert Morien wrote: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > *What* is his interest here? Oh my, Lolly is still having a Robert fix........ >> >> Robert Morien wrote: >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Oh my, Lolly is still having a Robert fix........ I see you still can't answer the question. > >> >> Robert Morien wrote: > >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > I see you still can't answer the question. And you as of this moment haven't provided the proof of that unsubstantiated press release you were spamming as part of your agenda. You're going to have to do better than this lolly, there are so many other tactics that you have yet to explore...I do enjoy your attempts at making yourself the victim though. >> >> >> Robert Morien wrote: >> >> >> > In article [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > And you as of this moment haven't provided the proof of that > unsubstantiated press release you were spamming as part of your agenda. Old news, Robert. You seem to be long on questions, here and short on answers. What is your interest here on the dental newsgroup? > You're going to have to do better than this lolly, there are so many > other tactics that you have yet to explore...I do enjoy your attempts at > making yourself the victim though. What is your interest here on the dental newsgroup? > >> >> >> Robert Morien wrote: > >> >> >> > In article [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > You seem to be long on questions, here and short on answers. As are you lolly, as are you. > What is your interest here on the dental newsgroup? To abuse spammers > > You're going to have to do better than this lolly, there are so many > > other tactics that you have yet to explore...I do enjoy your attempts at > > making yourself the victim though. > > What is your interest here on the dental newsgroup? To abuse spammers. Do you feel abused? > I am certain that it is incumbent upon these people to have first taken > all reasonable steps to demonstrate that such a material is not able to > dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads as a > result of its electromagnetic (or "faradaic") behavior. > > Do you know if any of them ever have? I'm an electronic engineer so perhaps I can comment... Which magnetic field you are worried about? I think the Earths magnetic field is about 4x10^-5T and other magnetic fields from power lines are typically lower than that. However fields of 20T - that's 500,000 times as strong don't appear to cause any ill effects on patients subjected to NMR scans. If the problem you describe exists thet would expect them to complain of pain in the teeth if they move while being scanned - I know they are told to stay still but some must sneeze or swallow occasionally! What about pilots? They fly at hundreds of miles an hour through the earths magnetic field for perhaps 20-30 years of their life. I've not heard of any claims that this mechanism is making them ill or loose their teeth. I forgot about copper braclets. Those are claimed to give health benifits yet are subject to the same magnetic field as a metal tooth of filling. Worse, a gold ring represent a "shorted turn" and in theory that can cause high currents to flow (High being a relative term). >I'm an electronic engineer so perhaps I can comment... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of pain in the teeth if they move while being scanned - I know they are told >to stay still but some must sneeze or swallow occasionally! If you knew your subject better you would appreciate that the excitation of the nuclei of atoms in NMR procedures is not simply dependent upon field strength. The field strength influences the frequency at which the targeted nuclei will resonate, but the frequency of the incident radiation must also match this "resonant" frequency in order to produce the required excitation. The variation of resonant frequencies for varying field strengths is different for the nuclei of different elements. In fact, each element (more accurately, each isotope of each element) has its own characteristic profile of "resonant" frequencies (called Larmor frequencies after the British scientist Sir Joseph Larmor (1857-1942)). A table of NMR frequencies at different field strengths for different elements can be found on the website of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology at: http://web.mit.edu/speclab/www/nmrfreq.html You can see that the field strengths for this table have actually been chosen to match with convenient values of Larmor frequencies for hydrogen - H(1). So, for argument's sake, if an NMR scan was set up with a field strength of 5.8717 Tesla and a frequency of incident radiation of 250 MHz, then you would expect the hydrogen nuclei in the region of the body under examination to "resonate" accordingly. However, you would not expect the nuclei of the mercury, silver or tin atoms in your amalgam fillings to resonate significantly at all. This is not because the field strength is not great enough. It is because the Larmor frequencies of Ag(107), Ag(109), Sn(115), Sn(117), Sn(119), Hg(119) and Hg(201) at this field strength are 10.116, 11.630, 81.749, 89.063, 93.181, 44.568, and 16.499 MHz respectively, and not 250MHz. The Larmor frequencies for these nuclei will always be different from that of hydrogen, whatever the strength of the field. And it is therefore possible to ensure that only hydrogen nuclei are excited in an MRI procedure simply by determining that the incident radiation matches the Larmor frequency for H(1) at the chosen field strength. Do you think that it should be possible to determine whether or not the nuclei of the atoms in amalgam fillings are excited by the electromagnetic fields associated with visual display units, electrified railway lines, cellular telephones, etc., etc., etc.? Keith P Walsh >>I'm an electronic engineer so perhaps I can comment... >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >Keith P Walsh Hey, CWatters! Where are you? I thought we had a dialogue going here. Have you gone all shy on us? Well, it wouldn't surprise me if you did. I think you made a real schoolboy error. I think that your previous contribution stongly implied that in your opinion if it is demonstrated that a material does not resonate in an elctromagnetic field of a certain strength then it must be correct to presume that it will not resonate in any field of a lesser strength. Not so. It isn't that simple. (Nature rarely is.) If you followed my last message you will appreciate now that a material will resonate in an electromagnetic field of any field strength (no matter how small) if the frequency of the incident radiation matches the resonant frequency (or frequencies) for the material corresponding to that field strength. Don't be too embarrassed. Your mistake is a common one. And it explains why our understanding of the electromagnetic behavior of dental amalgams should be based on the results of scientifically conducted investigations rather than on the unsubstantiated guesswork of well-meaning but only partially informed "professionals" such as yourself. You see, when it comes to the electromagnetic behavior of dental amalgams the dentists who frequent this newsgroup are just as ignorant as you are (if not more so). So when you announce yourself as an "electronic engineer" and start telling them things that they want to hear there is a danger that they will automatically assume that you know what you are talking about. Let's stick to science. Metal amalgam fillings are placed in children's teeth. The electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams should therefore have been measured. And the results should be available. Would you not agree? Keith P Walsh PS, some of the basic principles of NMR technology are expained at: http://members.aol.com/logan20/theory.html - and further enquiries regarding the electrical properties of dental amalgams can be found at: http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm > Hey, CWatters! > Where are you? > I thought we had a dialogue going here. > Have you gone all shy on us? Nope. I've away been taking my kids on a steam train ride I got better things to do with my life than worry about my fillings. If you worry so much the stress will get you if the fillings don't. > I think that your previous contribution stongly implied that in your > opinion if it is demonstrated that a material does not resonate in an > elctromagnetic field of a certain strength then it must be correct to > presume that it will not resonate in any field of a lesser strength. Well actually I missunderstood your original post. I thought you were mainly interested in low frequency magnetic fields from things like power lines or monitors because you were talking about physical movement within a field. I was talking about movement within the intense "DC" magnetic field used in scanners not the RF excitation field. I understand and agree with your point about the frequency being tuned for hydrogen and not mercury. > Don't be too embarrassed. Oh I'm not. You? > > The electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams should therefore > have been measured. Some work has been done.. http://www.eatingalive.com/windham/windhamB.htm > And the results should be available. > > Would you not agree? I agree. Colin Faradaic activity I can live with. Its Pharasaic activity that gets me wondering ..... -- Joel34 >> > The electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams should therefore >> have been measured. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I agree. Colin, Thank you for your further contribution. The following is from the website of the Gore electronics company: "If you can describe the permittivity, permeability and conductivity of a material, you can describe completely how electromagnetic energy behaves within that material. " See: http://www.gore.com/en_xx/products/electronic/emi/electromagnetic_material_chara cterization.html Permittivity is measured in farads per metre, permeability in henry per metre, and conductivity in siemens per metre. Do you know of any reason why it should not be possible to measure these properties for a typical dental amalgam? Keith P Walsh PS, If you were ever to stand back and allow an ignorant dentist to place amalgam fillings in the teeth of those kids of yours then in my opinion that would make you just as ignorant as your own parents. In recent years many millions of dollars have been spent on attempting to prove that the causes of so-called "psychiatric" conditions such as "schizophrenia", "paranoia", "sress" and "depression", etc., are "genetic". So far without success. I've noticed that there is something other than genes which silly parents pass on to their children who then grow up to be unhappy - a neglect for their teeth (usually coupled with the sheep-like acceptance of the notion that there is "nothing wrong" with amalgam fillings.) Most of us have grown up in a society where having great clumps of mercury amalgam placed in our teeth is the norm. What means do we have of determining that our anxieties, fears, listlessnesses and lack of confidence are not caused by the electrical behavior of these fillings? Scientific investigation. That's what. It is the natural function of the human neurological system to transmit signals in the form of tiny electrical currents. However, it is not the natural function of the human neurological system to be permanently dissipating the electrical energy generated by metal amalgam fillings in teeth. Amalgam fillings are placed in children's teeth. The electrical and electromagnetic properties of amalgam s should therefore have been measured. And the results should be available. Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? carabelli >Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? > >carabelli I think that you may have mis-interpreted my point. Parents don't pass on their neglect for their teeth in their bodily fluids. They pass it on in their ignorance. Metal amalgam fillings are placed in children's teeth. The electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams should therefore have been measured. And the results should be available. Would you not agree? Keith P Walsh carabelli Wrote: > Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? > > carabelli Nope, but AFDB's do greatly improve your cell phone reception -AND nobody will stop and ask you for directions ;* -- billkat >carabelli Wrote: >> Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Nope, but AFDB's do greatly improve your cell phone reception -AND- >nobody will stop and ask you for directions ;*) I am trying to find out what the electromagnetic properties of a typical dental amalgam are. Do you have anything intelligent to contribute? Keith P Walsh > >carabelli Wrote: > >> Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Keith P Walsh Why not just go to your local college physics dept and ask for some help? Keep us informed. Keith P Walsh Wrote: > I am trying to find out what the electromagnetic properties of a > typical dental amalgam are. > > Do you have anything intelligent to contribute? > > Keith P Walsh OK, let's try this. Amalgam is a metallic compound but because of the high resistance of amalgam, it cannot truly be classified as a conductor. If a current of any significance passed regularly through, or was generated by your fillings, you'd feel heat. In fact, I'd imagine that they'd get rather toasty in no time at all because of resistance levels of amalgam. As far as magnetic or electromagnetic properties are concerned... Lousy too. You can verify this by taking a magnet and trying to stick it to one of your fillings (but please, send along a picture ;*> ). What can happen: Underwater welders have been known to complain of metallic taste in their mouths. This is because they're being exposed to massive amounts of EM radiation from the welder. The taste of metal is the 'canary in a coalmine effect' which affects a lot more than your fillings. Studies show that long term exposure to EM radiation (such as living under power lines) isn’t good for you either. Is the amalgam the fault here? NO! Exposure to massive amounts of EM radiation is dangerous and one’s fillings are not the source. FWIW, here’s something for others to ponder on: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html I’m not going to convince you about anything and I’m not really trying to either. What worries me is that someone else living or working in an environmentally detrimental situation will try to blame the problem on their fillings. That’s just wrong. Signaturebillkatz > Keith P Walsh Wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > any significance passed regularly through, or was generated by your > fillings, you'd feel heat. Keith didn't say anything about the current. He only said that the amalgam generated .35 volts. Heat dissipated would be V*V/R, so remember for a given voltage the greater the resistance of the amalgam actually the less heat is generated! In fact, I'd imagine that they'd get rather > toasty in no time at all because of resistance levels of amalgam. Based on the hypothesis of .350 Mv? Gee all I need to do is hook a 9v battery to a radiator with a whole lot of resistance and good bye heating bill! Could a voltage appear across the nerves, and what would the resistance of the nerves Be compared to that of the amalgam in the voltage divider? > What can happen: Underwater welders have been known to complain of > metallic taste in their mouths. This is because they're being exposed > to massive amounts of EM radiation from the welder. The taste of metal > is the 'canary in a coalmine effect' which affects a lot more than your > fillings. Studies show that long term exposure to EM radiation (such as > living under power lines) isn't good for you either. I looked for this, but amazingly many sources on the web try to claim that power lines are safe! Can you site the relvant studies? > the fault here? NO! Exposure to massive amounts of EM radiation is > dangerous and one's fillings are not the source. YOu can't deny however that if fillings were good conductors they would concentrate the effect of external EM fields more around the fillings. > FWIW, here's something for others to ponder on: > http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html Quackwatch is full of misinformation about amalgams. Why is this suddenly an authorative source? Because some opportunist suddenly decided they were an expert on 500 different subspecialties and could gain by putting up a pro-industry site and calling it quackwatch? It's full of inaccuracies. Try Haley's site, much more accurate and he actually has a scientific background unlike these jokers. > Keith didn't say anything about the current. He only said > that the amalgam generated .35 volts. Heat dissipated would be V*V/R, > so remember for a given voltage the greater the resistance of the > amalgam actually the less heat is generated! Any reference to heat in this context is a wind-up. Any voltage produced is likely to be between the filling and the surrounding material NOT within or accross the filing. Even then a figure of .35V is likely to be the open circuit voltage - the mechanisim causing the voltage is unlikely to be able to support any significant current flow - at least as far as heating is concerned. Even then a figure of .35V is > likely to be the open circuit voltage - the mechanisim causing the voltage > is unlikely to be able to support any significant current flow - at least as > far as heating is concerned. I suppose it could be possible for voltage to somehow affect the nerves alone. I.E theoretically is it absolutely necessary to have current move through the nerves for them to be affected? Maybe there could be some polarization induced in the nerves or something. yup SignatureJoel344 > yup > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 > View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2752 Ever seen someone touch a (high voltage) tesla coil. i wonder how that works! clintonz@prodigy.net Wrote: > > yu > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ever seen someone touch a (high voltage) tesla coil. i wonder how tha > works! Ever seen anybody pee on electric fence -- Su >> Ever seen someone touch a (high voltage) tesla coil. i wonder how that >> works! >Ever seen anybody pee on electric fence? You go first. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B Wrote: > On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:46:14 GMT, Sue <s.c.madden @comcast.net="" > wrote [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Take out the G'RBAG > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com I did.... and.... I used to be a man </s.c.madden -- Su > clintonz@prodigy.net Wrote: > > > yup [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > works! > Ever seen anybody pee on electric fence? My point was that a tesla coil although a very high voltage would just produce a wierd sensation, but no shock. As for the fence, i do know someone invented a water gun people "cattle prod". The idea is that the water stream conducts so two streams shot out from two electrods could generate a shock. I hope this doesn,t happen in reverse with the electric fence! >> clintonz@prodigy.net Wrote: >> > > yup [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > > Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 >> > > View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2752 SOMEONE WROTE, >> > Ever seen someone touch a (high voltage) tesla coil. i wonder how that >> > works! >> Ever seen anybody pee on electric fence? REPLY Nah, we have very few of these in the city ...... I mean fences ... we got plenty of peers (peers). >My point was that a tesla coil although a very high voltage would >just produce a wierd sensation, but no shock. CWatters Wrote: > <clintonz @prodigy.net=""> wrote in messag > news:1125593359.559431.254690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com.. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > least a > far as heating is concerned. I have question. Bill K says the resistance of the amalagm material i extremly high. Keith said the amalgam generated .35V. SWatters say the mechanism supplying the voltage is unlikely to support an significant current flow If voltage = current x resistanc ..you must have at least some current, correct ..even if the resistance is really high... or am I missing something Does overall impedance come into play here Thanks -Sue </clintonz -- Su > I have question. Bill K says the resistance of the amalagm material is > extremly high. Keith said the amalgam generated .35V. SWatters sayd [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ..you must have at least some current, correct? Yes but not enough to cause heating. > CWatters Wrote: > I have question. Bill K says the resistance of the amalagm material is > extremly high. Keith said the amalgam generated .35V. SWatters sayd > the mechanism supplying the voltage is unlikely to support any > significant current flow. > > If voltage = current x resistance > ...you must have at least some current, correct? V=RI, but notice that I=V/R! Thus for a given constant voltage, say .35V, notice that the GREATER the resistance the LESS the current! Power equals Voltage times resistance. Lets solve for P. P=VI. Well, we know that I=V/R, therefore P=V(V/R)=V*V/R. I.E the power dissipated is less for a larger resistance! P also = I(I)*R, so for a given current increasing resistance increases power. A source which maintains a constant current behaves very differently than a source which maintains a constant current! > ...even if the resistance is really high... or am I missing something? if i understand correctly, CW is even trying to say that the voltage will not appear across the filling! If something is creating voltage outside of the filling, maybe there is a voltage difference BETWEEN an amalgam and gold, he may mean that voltage would appear across human tissue before it would appear directly across the filling, which still has a relatively low comparative resistance within the total biological circuit. We have to be careful about exactly where the voltage source is before we apply V=RI > Does overall impedance come into play here? Once you identify the voltage source, the overall impedance of the circuit it is connected to will be important. For example the resistance of air is infinite. An unconnected battery, connected to the air, puts 9v across the air. However I=V/R = 9/infinity = 0 and as you know no current flows! >A source which maintains a constant current >behaves very differently than a source which maintains a >constant current! !!!!!! SignaturePeter Bowditch aa #2243 The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com Peter Bowditch Wrote: > >A source which maintains a constant current > >behaves very differently than a source which maintains a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com I think he meant to say: A source which maintains a constant current behaves very differently than a source which maintains a constant "voltage!" (I do not want to put words into his mouth though). -Sue SignatureSue > Peter Bowditch Wrote: > > > > >A source which maintains a constant current > > >behaves very differently than a source which maintains a > > >constant current! he meant to say: A source which maintains a constant current > behaves very differently than a source which maintains a constant > "voltage!" Yes , in network theory one would be called an ideal voltage source while the other would be termed an ideal current source. A 9V battery is the first, because we cannot be sure how much current a given ciruit will demand from it. If the circuit demands too much current (exceeding the battery current rating) it may also cease to function as an ideal voltage source. Re: Fillings. BILL - You are right. This sounds like quack quack quack. ********************************************** JoeLY & Letsconnect- You are too funny! :-) Clintonz@prodigy & Peter - I had written out a long post about impedance and resistance... but it got eaten. Maybe i can recreate it tomorrow.... but it did not relate to amalgam so maybe not. It was not important. Take Care SMDers and Comrades. Thanks for the discussion. Later then, Sue SignatureSue A few typos here see [correction] > Power equals Voltage times resistance [Current]. Lets solve for P. > P=VI. Well, we know that I=V/R, therefore P=V(V/R)=V*V/R. I.E [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > behaves very differently than a source which maintains a > constant current! [Voltage] clintonz@prodigy.net Wrote: > Based on the hypothesis of .350 Mv? Gee all I need to do is hook > a 9v battery to a radiator with a whole lot of resistance and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > subspecialties and could gain by putting up a pro-industry site > and calling it quackwatch? You see, that's the problem. I said significant and this "hypothesis" of 350Mv is NOT significant. The human body is constantly bombarded by external sources of voltage and EM that far outweigh this 'Faradic theory'. If there was any *significant* current within or passing through the filling, you'd feel heat dissipation. In other words, depending on the atmospheric conditions (and what you had for lunch), you'll probably generate about as much current by farting in a pair of polyester pants. :P As far as Quackwatch goes, I'm not going to argue their intentions but in the same light you describe, there's the other side of the coin. People like Hal Huggins keep pumping out this stuff and they make some real $$$ from it. Huggins' license was revoked due to gross malpractice back in 1996. (http://www.hugnet.com) Why was his license revoked? Was it because he discovered some secret conspiracy? Was it because he stepped on someone’s toes? NO. It was because of gross malpractice. The type stuff you're describing right here. There's no conspiracy. These are medical professionals and they know what they're doing. If amalgam was a true health hazard as some here claim, they (the FDA) would put out a public alert. Nobody’s trying to hide anything. Again, and for some reason this has totally gone by some --- I’m not going to convince you about anything and I’m not really trying to either. What worries me is that someone else living or working in an environmentally detrimental situation will try to blame the problem on their fillings. That’s just wrong. Signaturebillkatz > clintonz@prodigy.net Wrote: site > > and calling it quackwatch? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > theory'. If there was any *significant* current within or passing > through the filling, you'd feel heat dissipation. How strong are most external EM fields anway? You think a nerve gets > 350mv from external fields? I really haven't run the numbers. (i still don't even know the resistance of amalgam or its permativity). > As far as Quackwatch goes, I'm not going to argue their intentions but > in the same light you describe, there's the other side of the coin. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it because he discovered some secret conspiracy? Was it because he > stepped on someone's toes? NO. It was because of gross malpractice. Huggins license was reinstated I believe. And who revoked it. The dental board, dominated by guess who? Dentists! Why was it revoked? I haven't researched the case but probably because the dental board asserted that he could not make medical claims about removing amalgams curing diseases. That may be a valid point but interestingly this has nothing to do with the potential toxicity of amalgam and is quite a hypocritical stand since the ADA claims it owes no care of legal responsability for the effects of amalgam, nor does it feel it has to prove safety. (Amalgam was grandfathered in) > The type stuff you're describing right here. Woa, there. What type of "stuff". I am merely pointing out that theoretically .350 V does not necessarily equal a large current! > There's no conspiracy. These are medical professionals and they >know > what they're doing. ARe you talking about faradiac behavior or amalgam in general? >If amalgam was a true health hazard as >some here claim, they >(the FDA) would put out a public alert. >Nobody's trying to hide anything. Many European countries have put out warnings for amalgam. GEEz amalgam is the largest source of elemental Hg. but thats fine and dandy with you because the government says so! I also hope you don't grind your teeth! >Keith P Walsh Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Amalgam is a metallic compound but because of the high resistance of >amalgam, it cannot truly be classified as a conductor. Would you be able to quote me a value for the electrical resistivity of a typical dental amalgam? Keith P Walsh >>Keith P Walsh Wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Would you be able to quote me a value for the electrical resistivity >of a typical dental amalgam? Hey billkatz, where are you? Don't go all shy on us. You said something interesting here. You said, "because of the high resistance of amalgam, ..." How do you know that the resistance of amalgam is "high"? Do you know someone who has measured it? "High" compared with what? The electrical resistivity of a material is measured in the SI units of ohm-metres. Can you quote me a value for a typical dental amalgam which is backed up by suitable references to verifiable scientific measurements? Or are you just guessing? Keith P Walsh PS, further enquiries concerning the electrical properties of dental amalgams can be found at: http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm 350 mV? >>>Keith P Walsh Wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm Keith P Walsh Wrote: > Hey billkatz, where are you? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/intro.htm You've been playing with the Ohm meter again... Haven't you? Signaturebillkatz >Keith P Walsh Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >You've been playing with the Ohm meter again... Haven't you? I'm getting the distinct impression that when it comes to the electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams you're just as ignorant as everyone else. Are you saying that the SI unit of electrical resistivity is not the ohm metre? Keith P Walsh Keith P Walsh Wrote: > I'm getting the distinct impression that when it comes to the > electromagnetic properties of dental amalgams you're just as ignorant [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Keith P Walsh Nope. I'm saying that you're off on a wild goose chase. I'm saying that one's fillings won't make anyone any more crazy tha they were to begin with. I'm telling you that you may be ignoring the obvious. Good luck and happy hunting... :- -- billkat >I'm saying that you're off on a wild goose chase. >I'm saying that one's fillings won't make anyone any more crazy than >they were to begin with. >I'm telling you that you may be ignoring the obvious. I'd say that you're just making excuses for your own ignorance. It isn't obvious that the electrical potentials generated by amalgam fillings are not able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads. And it wouldn't be obvious if they did that this would not be a cause of "stress". It is the natural function of the human neurological system to transmit signals in the form of tiny electrical currents. However, it is not the natural function of the human neurological system to be permanently dissipating the electrical potentials generated by amalgam fillings. Contributors to this thread have suggested that if this happened then people would feel either "pain" or "heat" in the region of their teeth as a result. But they don't know that this is true. They're just guessing. As far as they know the result might be that those people just feel "stress". I'd say that as far as any of us knows (and that includes you) it might be possible to detect using modern instrumentation whether or not neurological function in the vicinity of teeth with amalgam fillings is any different from neurological function on the vicinity of teeth without. And in my opinion there cannot be any valid scientific argument for not trying. Would you agree? Keith P Walsh PS, it has been demonstrated that metal amalgam dental fillings generate electrical potentials witth magnitudes of up to 350 millivolts. See: http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/dutch.htm And the resting potential of the human neurological synapse is only 70 millivolts. Keith P Walsh Wrote: > I'd say that you're just making excuses for your own ignorance. > > And the resting potential of the human neurological synapse is only 70 > millivolts. Why... Thank you! <LOL> The human body constantly dissipates and accumulates electrica charges. Electrostatic discharge happens by moving around if nothin else. Plus or minus 350 millivolts is nothing. Anybody who has a goo quality meter can attest to this by holding a lead in each hand an walking on a wool carpet. Albeit, I'm rootin' for ya buddy. ;*) You seem like a nice guy, Keith. If only you could put as much ambitio into something like helping the homeless. Good Luck -- billkat > >I'm saying that you're off on a wild goose chase. > >I'm saying that one's fillings won't make anyone any more crazy than [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > But they don't know that this is true. And you don't know that it's false. > They're just guessing. And you aren't? I don't see you doing any scientific research. I don't see you tootling down to your local college physics department and asking them these questions (they might actually do some tests for you.) > As far as they know the result might be that those people just feel > "stress". But you're just guessing > I'd say that as far as any of us knows (and that includes you) it > might be possible to detect using modern instrumentation whether or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And in my opinion there cannot be any valid scientific argument for > not trying. Which brings up the point: why haven't you gone to the physics department of your local college and ask them these questions? > Would you agree? I'd agree that you've made no effort to validate your point. Why is that? > Keith P Walsh > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > And the resting potential of the human neurological synapse is only 70 > millivolts. You say potat-TOE and I say pa-TAH-toe ....... >> But they don't know that this is true. > >And you don't know that it's false. > >> They're just guessing. Joel M. Eichen Wrote: > You say potat-TOE and I say pa-TAH-toe ....... You do realize that you can get about a half a volt out of a potato don't you? Are you dentists in cahoots with the evil potato industry?? -- billkat > Joel M. Eichen Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are you dentists in cahoots with the evil potato industry??? Keith is one of those on the soapbox, waving his finger at everyone that does not pursue the line of research he deems to be penultimate. Of course he won't raise a finger to initiate research along these lines except to click his mouse. In the good ole usa, he would be a perfect dem - telling everyone how their money should be spent. He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to buckle up and do what he considers important research. Keith, KMEWA carabelli He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to buckle up and do what he considers important research. Keith, KMEWA carabelli REPLY He got up to 350 millivolts, then he quit. SignatureJoel344 >He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to >buckle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >He got up to 350 millivolts, then he quit. Yep, that 350 mV blew out his two remaining neurons. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >> Joel M. Eichen Wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >he won't raise a finger to initiate research along these lines except to >click his mouse. Keith speaks of the millivoltage in the potato. A recent vice president was interested in the millivoltage in the potatoe. Joel >In the good ole usa, he would be a perfect dem - telling everyone how their >money should be spent. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >carabelli > He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to buckle > up and do what he considers important research. > > Keith, KMEWA > > carabelli I looked KMEWA up on acronymfinder.com. There were no matches. Does anyone know what this means? Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply > I looked KMEWA up on acronymfinder.com. There were no matches. Does > anyone know what this means? > Thanks K = M = my E = enormous W = White A = You can fill in the blanks. Signature/ Amatus / > >> He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > SP Aardvark? You can't spell Aardvark? Nocturnal burrowing mammal of the grasslands of Africa that feeds on termites; sole extant representative of the order Tubulidentata Joel >> I looked KMEWA up on acronymfinder.com. There were no matches. Does >> anyone know what this means? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >You can fill in the blanks. Whew! That's a relief. I thought it was ...Ampere... Ahem... milliAmpere that is :) Joel M. Eichen Wrote: > Aardvark? You can't spell Aardvark? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > >You can fill in the blanks -- billkat > K = > M = my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You can fill in the blanks. Ah... no wonder it wasn't on acronymfinder.com Thanks SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to buckle >> up and do what he considers important research. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >SP Yes, many of us know what KMEWA means. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >>> He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to >>> buckle [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > W_B I'm stunned that acronymfinder.com hasn't listed that yet. BTW E = Entire carabelli > E = Entire I like enormous better. [grin] Signature/ Amatus / > >>>> He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > carabelli >>>> He is either too lazy, intellectually incapable, or too insincere to >>>> buckle [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >carabelli Didn't we also agree that E could = Everlovin' some time ago ? 8^]] -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >I looked KMEWA up on acronymfinder.com. There were no matches. Does > >anyone know what this means? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Thank you so much for sharing that.... :-\ I'll make sure there's a little something extra in your Xmas stocking for being so.............. what's the word....?....... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> >I looked KMEWA up on acronymfinder.com. There were no matches. Does >> >anyone know what this means? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >SP Precise ? You didn't ask what the letters stood for, you asked if anyone knew what it meant. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Precise ? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com How totally imprecisely uclearly vague of me.... 1.5 pardons SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply >> Precise ? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >1.5 pardons >SP 350 mV short. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > >> Precise ? > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Oh, DRAT.... SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply DINER: Waiter may I have 0.7 potato? WAITER: Why the strange number? DINER: I need my 350 millivolts today. Joel >Joel M. Eichen Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Are you dentists in cahoots with the evil potato industry??? > DINER: Waiter may I have 0.7 potato? > WAITER: Why the strange number? > DINER: I need my 350 millivolts today. So that's why when you get an electric shock we say you've been "fried" :-) >> DINER: Waiter may I have 0.7 potato? >> WAITER: Why the strange number? >> DINER: I need my 350 millivolts today. > >So that's why when you get an electric shock we say you've been "fried" :-) According to Keith, right! I say asparagus. >You say potat-TOE and I say pa-TAH-toe ....... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>> They're just guessing. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >I say asparagus. SP says les asperges ......... >>You say potat-TOE and I say pa-TAH-toe ....... >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> >>>> They're just guessing. > >I say asparagus. > > SP says les asperges ......... C'est bien cela... Salut! SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply "Keith P Walsh" <keith.p.walsh@btinternet.com> wrote ...... > Do you have anything intelligent to contribute? > > Keith P Walsh Oh, but I did. Somehow I'm not surprised that it escaped you. carabelli RE: Faradaic Activity in Dental Amalgams To Keith W. Sorry, I really thought this whole thread was just a spoof. Why are you studying this subject? Thanks -Su -- Su >>carabelli Wrote: >>> Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Keith P Walsh You go first. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com >Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? > >carabelli Probably only the precocious ones 8^]] -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > Do you think they can also affect our precious bodily fluids? > > carabelli Yes, Dr. Strangelove SP SignatureTake out the TRASH to reply Before I reply ... If you were to consider a filling as an aerial 5mm long... that would correspond to a frequency of about 60GHz. In other words at frequencies less than 60GHz it's not going to work very well as an aerial. Reports of people picking up FM radio stations around 100MHz are hard to credit for this reason but I guess it's not impossible. Yo dentists out there... Ever have a patient prove this by telling you what's playing on a particular radio station? Did you check? > Do you know of any reason why it should not be possible to measure > these properties for a typical dental amalgam? I've no direct experience in measuring these properties but I can't see any reasons why it should not be possible to measure them for amalgam. I imagine new materials are being tested all the time but they will probably be measured in a way that is applicable to their application. For example if you are trying to make a better capacitor you would test the properties of the material in thin sheet form. That would allow you to compare it to other materials already being used to make capacitors. > "If you can describe the permittivity, permeability and conductivity > of a material, you can describe completely how electromagnetic > energy behaves within that material" That's true in theory. In practice it can be difficult. We know a lot about the thermal properties of the air but we can't predict the weather very well. Note the remark at the bottom of the page you provided... "Testing the permittivity, conductivity, and permeability of materials can be difficult. The main problem is the lack of available standards. For example, if you wanted to develop a method to measure the dielectric constant of a material using a custom sensor, you would not be able to purchase a dielectric standard to calibrate or evaluate your test method." In addition to knowing the properties of the material you would need to know the shape of the materials and the environment in which they are located. That's likely to be the tricky part. Might be easier to do measurements on real teeth than try an predict what happens using computers. > In recent years many millions of dollars have been spent on attempting > to prove that the causes of so-called "psychiatric" conditions such as > "schizophrenia", "paranoia", "sress" and "depression", etc., are > "genetic". > > So far without success. I'm afraid that's not true.... http://stress.about.com/cs/medicalconditions/a/aa081003a.htm "Scientists report they have identified a gene that determines whether we become depressed in response to stressful life situations. The gene, known as 5-HTT, is involved in the regulation of the neurotransmitter serotonin, the same chemical affected by popular antidepressants such as Zoloft and prozac." > Yo dentists out there... Ever have a patient prove this by telling you > what's playing on a particular radio station? Did you check? That is against the ethics code! > > Do you know of any reason why it should not be possible to measure > > these properties for a typical dental amalgam? > > I've no direct experience in measuring these |
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