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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005

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NTI opinions

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LurfysMa - 18 Aug 2005 22:37 GMT
I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:

1. Supraeruption. She felt that the teeth that do not touch would
eventually start to erupt. I told her about the web site and even
printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She
felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth.

2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to
align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That
could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over
time.

3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more
risky/unknown.

4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of
supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later.

I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did
not believe it.

Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and
looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the
entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?
W_B - 18 Aug 2005 22:53 GMT
>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
>pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She
>felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth.

Teeth don't super-erupt from using an NTI.
1) It is not worn 24/7
2) You take it out to eat, which stimulates the periodontal
    ligaments, and prevents super-eruption.

>2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to
>align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That
>could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over
>time.

Totally bogus.
The NTI prevents clenching entirely when constructed correctly.

>3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more
>risky/unknown.

It is much more effective than the full arch splint.
The full arch splint only allows the patient to clench *harder* !
No risk, very little unkown about the NTI.

>4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of
>supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later.

Bullsh*t.
(BTW it's called 'intrusion' and doesn't happen with the NTI)

>I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did
>not believe it.

Then tell her to contact Dr. Boyd and ask for a sample and she can
make one for herself.
It's about normalizing the musculature.

>Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and
>looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the
>entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
>within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?

Slow to adapt, set in their ways, etc...
Most of us were taught based on incorrect theories.
Some find it tough to discard such ingrained dogma.

The NTI works, period.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 18 Aug 2005 23:04 GMT
>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:

Time to change?

Signature

.

Amatus

.

>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
> within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?
Fawks - 19 Aug 2005 03:28 GMT
Yes indeed!

Fawks
Tim Dixon - 19 Aug 2005 02:23 GMT
This is not unusual at all.  Your current dentist just doesn't know that the
appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than
just leaving you alone.  The database you searched is not all inclusive of
every NTI provider in the USA.  Those listed have opted to be listed, but
there is probably another 8 to 10,000 more that are not.  If you give me
your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you
someone closer.

>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
> within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?
LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 06:38 GMT
>This is not unusual at all.  Your current dentist just doesn't know that the
>appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you
>someone closer.

I'm in Palo Alto, California. ZIP codes around here are 94301, 94307,
94310, 94308, 94303, 94304, 94305 (Stanford), & 94309.

Thanks

>>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
>> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
>> within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?
Joel344 - 20 Aug 2005 10:06 GMT
Tim Dixon, Dr. Steve Fawks, Dr. Steve Mancuso, W_B (dentist), too many
others to name ....... they are reporting that the therapy described,
NTI is simple and effective. This means they report that patients with
symptoms appear to progress to PATIENTS WITHOUT SYMPTOMS, which is our
clinical goal .....

Joel M. Eichen D.D.S.

Signature

Joel344

LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 18:09 GMT
>Tim Dixon, Dr. Steve Fawks, Dr. Steve Mancuso, W_B (dentist), too many
>others to name .......

I'm not sure which part of my post you are replying to. If it was why
there are so few dentists using the NTI, I was referring to the
referral list on the NTI website. I am aware that many posters in this
ng claiming to be dentists advocate the NTI. I don't doubt that they
are, in fact, dentists, but unless they are within 30 minutes or so,
they are not too useful to me.

>they are reporting that the therapy described,
>NTI is simple and effective. This means they report that patients with
>symptoms appear to progress to PATIENTS WITHOUT SYMPTOMS, which is our
>clinical goal .....

My question is, which symptoms. I don't have headaches. Never have. I
have fractured teeth. Over the last 15 years or so, I have had 2-3
root canals that I was told were because of vertical fractures that
went all the way to the root. Most likely cause, bruxism.

Three years ago, I lost a tooth (#15) because it had become loose and
then infected. It had had a root canal some time earlier. This was
also attributed to bruxism.

Now a few days ago, the gold crown on #19 fell out at breakfast.
Fractured just below the gum line. It also had a root canal
previously. Tooth cannot be saved. I am looking at another extraction
and, since it is not the last tooth, as #15 was, either a bridge or an
implant. Again, most probable cause, bruxism.

About 15-20 years ago, I started fracturing teeth vertically and
getting root canals. The dentist at that time (I have since moved),
blamed bruxism and gave me a hard plastic night guard. There were no
more fractures. I was a happy camper.

Within the the past 4 years, I have lost 2 teeth to extractions. The
cause is again bruxism. So, either the night guard is no longer
working, or it is not working well enough.

Two different dentists (actually 4, counting their associates) have
told me that the likely cause is bruxism and all of them recommend the
full night guard (hard plastic). All four expressed concerns about the
NTI. I even printed up several pages from the web site to show them
and they say it is not recommended.

My current dentist gave me two printouts from the Patterson Dental
Supply -- one for the NTI and one for a plastic nightguard similar to
the one I already have. It's not that they haven't heard of the NTI.
They have. They just don't like it.

My dentist even brought the orthodontist from next door over to talk
to me. She also recommended the regular nightguard over the NTI.

I would like know what to believe. I don't doubt that the dentists
here are telling the truth, but I have 4-5 dentists who are telling me
otherwise. It's disturbing.

Interestingly, I have almost no wearing down of my teeth. I just
fracture them. One dentist told me that he had never seen anyone with
stronger (more overdeveloped) jaw muscles. Apparently, I am clenching
more than grinding, right?

The other thing that is somewhat unsettling is the tendency of some
people here to evangelize and/or be dismissive. I am trying to find
out what is the best for my. I am open to the possibility that my
dentists are simply resistant to a new idea. But I would like some
hard data. When I ask for it, I get a bit of an attitude. This does
not lead me to believe that the device is effective. Objective
scientists accept all criticism and respond objectively. True
believers rant and counter-attack. Many on this NG tend to the latter.
Bill - 21 Aug 2005 03:13 GMT
Lurfysma wrote:

"Over the last 15 years or so, I have had 2-3
root canals that I was told were because of vertical fractures that
went all the way to the root. Most likely cause, bruxism.

Three years ago, I lost a tooth (#15) because it had become loose and
then infected. It had had a root canal some time earlier. This was
also attributed to bruxism."

With these symptoms, it would be prudent to have a anti-bruxism
appliance.

"Now a few days ago, the gold crown on #19 fell out at breakfast.
Fractured just below the gum line. It also had a root canal
previously. Tooth cannot be saved. I am looking at another extraction
and, since it is not the last tooth, as #15 was, either a bridge or an
implant. Again, most probable cause, bruxism.

About 15-20 years ago, I started fracturing teeth vertically and
getting root canals. The dentist at that time (I have since moved),
blamed bruxism and gave me a hard plastic night guard. There were no
more fractures. I was a happy camper."

So far, so good. This would seem to indicate that the hard plastic
guard had a very positive effect. (The NTI is also hard plastic.)

But the following part is a bit confusing:

"Within the the past 4 years, I have lost 2 teeth to extractions. The
cause is again bruxism. So, either the night guard is no longer
working, or it is not working well enough.

Two different dentists (actually 4, counting their associates) have
told me that the likely cause is bruxism and all of them recommend the
full night guard (hard plastic)."

Do I understand this passage correctly -- that you already have a
full-mouth night guard that is not working well enough, so they are
recommending the same? I don't understand that.

"It's not that they haven't heard of the NTI.
They have. They just don't like it."

WHY don't they like it? If you read W_B's message earlier, that
addressed the concerns that many dentists had in the 1990s when the NTI
was new. Many dentists had concerns like that. (I know, I was one of
them!)  But now we know better, due to many years of research and
experience. (See the NTI website.)

"My dentist even brought the orthodontist from next door over to talk
to me. She also recommended the regular nightguard over the NTI."

Orthodontists do not receive training or education in the NTI in
school, so it is unfamiliar to them. Orthodontists move teeth, but do
not generally use ANY sort of guard, as that is usually left for the
general dentist to make.

Orthodontists are wonderful resources for information on tooth
movement, but the use of nightguards, whether full-coverage or the NTI,
falls outside their area of experience.

"I would like know what to believe. I don't doubt that the dentists
here are telling the truth, but I have 4-5 dentists who are telling me
otherwise. It's disturbing."

Of course it's disturbing. I'll bet that the dentists who are telling
you otherwise have no real experience in NTI use or construction.
Standard dental education usually covers only the old standard type of
nightguard, because when the dental professors went to school twenty or
thirty years ago, the NTI did not yet exist.

Back then, the old type of nightguard was all we had, so we had to use
it. There was no choice. But as time went on, too many patients still
had problems like yours. The development of the NTI was an improvement
on the quest to treat such problems.

Now we have a choice in designs for bruxism appliances. The question is
which of the two major designs is best for you? You have already tried
one, yet you still have catastrophic fractures. Do you think it is time
to try the other design? Are there really any technical or dental
reasons not to?

There is no evidence that the old full-mouth nightguard can lessen
clenching the way it can lessen grinding. There is a LOT of evidence
that the NTI can lessen both problems.

In fact, there is evidence that the full-mouth guard actually allows
for an increase in clenching, as the back teeth can grip and clench on
the plastic. Since the NTI does not allow the back teeth to contact
when it is worn, the back teeth cannot clench.

If there are any actual reasons not to try the NTI, please post them
here -- I'm sure that W_B and others will be able to address each point
one by one. Or, just check at the NTI website, as these questions have
been asked and addressed many times before.

"Interestingly, I have almost no wearing down of my teeth. I just
fracture them. One dentist told me that he had never seen anyone with
stronger (more overdeveloped) jaw muscles. Apparently, I am clenching
more than grinding, right?"

That's very insightful of you -- some dentists miss this important
point. Grinding can result in worn-down teeth, with bad fractures.
Clenching can result in almost no wear on the teeth, but with bad
fractures.

So if the problem is suspected to be clenching, what can be done?

Some sort of appliance is needed to stem the tide of fractures. The NTI
is not just an appliance, but is more of a supervised treatment
program, as the positive changes in clenching may require periodic
adjustment of the appliance. A good dentist familiar with the NTI
system should be able to help you.

Best regards,
- dentaldoc
Tim Dixon - 20 Aug 2005 14:04 GMT
>>This is not unusual at all.  Your current dentist just doesn't know that the
>>appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm in Palo Alto, California. ZIP codes around here are 94301, 94307,
> 94310, 94308, 94303, 94304, 94305 (Stanford), & 94309.

Below is a list of NTI providers within a fairly short distance of you.  Surely you can find one to help you.  Good luck, and keep us posted.

JAMES LAUGHLIN, DDS PALO ALTO CA 94304

JOSEPH KRAUSS , DDS PALO ALTO CA 94304

Amy Guthrie, DDS, Palo Alto, CA 94301

MARLY KAYSER SNEHA REDDY, DDS REDWOOD CITY CA 94061

NAZILA DOROODIAN ATHERTON DENTAL ATHERTON CA 94027

ELIZABETH P. DOI DDS MENLO PARK CA 94025

GARY SEVELY SUNNYVALE DENTAL OFFICE SUNNYVALE CA 94087

WILLIAM MILLER, DDS WILLIAM MILLER, DDS SUNNYVALE CA 94087

>>>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
>>> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> --
Joel344 - 20 Aug 2005 14:34 GMT
I used to recommend the regular marshmallow in place of the NTI fo
people who did not want to get standard one from the dentist. I no
recommend the yellow Easter chick peep as it looks less ridiculous tha
the marshmallow.

Well, a little less ridiculous.

Either one will keep your teeth slightly apart except when you ar
using them for chewing and that's my point.

WHAZZA peep anyway?

See a closely associated thread here somewhere ..... search for "peeps
unless you are on MSN in which case every thread will be included, e
pEePs?

Joe

--
Joel34
LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 18:10 GMT
>>>This is not unusual at all.  Your current dentist just doesn't know that the
>>>appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>WILLIAM MILLER, DDS WILLIAM MILLER, DDS SUNNYVALE CA 94087

Thanks for the list. Amy Guthrie was the one who was listed on the NTI
website. The others were not. I have an appointment to see her next
week. We'll see what she says.
StovePipe - 20 Aug 2005 15:42 GMT
> The database you searched is not all inclusive of
> every NTI provider in the USA.  Those listed have opted to be listed, but
> there is probably another 8 to 10,000 more that are not.  If you give me
> your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you
> someone closer.

That is true... You have to ask them to include you on their site, and
most don't even bother.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 20 Aug 2005 14:50 GMT
> I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was
> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:

This is coming to you from the viewpoint of a practitioner who
prescribes and places NTI's and wears one himself (as do most of the
dentists who prescribe them here:

> 1. Supraeruption. She felt that the teeth that do not touch would
> eventually start to erupt. I told her about the web site and even
> printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She
> felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth.

There will be no supraeruption if teeth contact maximally in every
twenty-four hour period. Theoretically, you could wear a day appliance
and a night appliance, 24/7, minus the time you take for eating, and as
long as you took it out for eating, you would not have any
supereruption. In practice, nobody keeps their appliances in for so long
a time. Therefore, you don't need to worry about supraeruption.

When the back teeth touch, we clench harder. When only the front teeth
touch, we mostly have an inhibitory reflex. Try it yourself: crunch a
pencil with your back teeth. You don't even have to do it to know that
you can easily do so, as you did way back when in school. Now try the
same thing with your front teeth: It is allot harder. Your reflexes are
trying to protect your front teeth from damage. This is because the
front teeth are not designed to clench down on. We have evolved reflexes
to prevent too much damage being done when biting too hard on the front
teeth. This is why the NTI is designed as it is.

> 2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to
> align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That
> could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over
> time.

Personally, I wish this were true! ;-) I would have less problems with
snoring and apnea (my wife assures me I still snore with a volume to
bring the house down, and I still kick my feet in bed). The truth is
that the muscles find themselves relaxing and bringing the mandible to a
'relaxed muscle' position, and so there is no strain on the jaw, and the
changes to the occlusion are interferences that should be adjusted.

> 3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more
> risky/unknown.

On the contrary, all of the patients that I had on full splints were
re-issued NTI's at no additional charge, and all report feeling an new
relaxed feeling about the head and neck in the morning, and that means
that the muscles  were finally allowed to relax at night. This makes it
much more effective than the traditional splints. All traditional
splints do is shield you from damaging your teeth as you clench. They
allow you to clench with more force, and so the muscles never get a
chance to relax.

> 4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of
> supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later.

This is patently untrue. This doesn't happen at all. You would need alot
more force directed along the axis of a tooth to produce intrusion, and
you cannot get that with the NTI. I have never seen this, and I have not
experienced it myself at all. Your dentist is proposing questions and
hypotheses, and that is good. She is ignoring what is known about the
NTI, and the responses to her queries and that is not good.

> I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did
> not believe it.

Does she have a particular background that gives here a 'right' not to
believe it? She obviously has a right to limit what she will and will
not do for her patients. Perhaps you, on the other hand, need to find a
dentist who is willing to invest some time in learning what this device
is and what it will do. Ideally, your dentist should make one for him or
herself, and then start doing it for his/her patients.

> Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and
> looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the
> entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists
> within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?

It is not a concept that has caught on in the mainstream yet, though it
is one that should be taught in the schools. I think that we will have
wait for a changing of the guard in the dental schools before it
becomes mainstream.

HTH
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

 
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