Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005
NTI opinions
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LurfysMa - 18 Aug 2005 22:37 GMT I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly:
1. Supraeruption. She felt that the teeth that do not touch would eventually start to erupt. I told her about the web site and even printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth.
2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over time.
3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more risky/unknown.
4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later.
I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did not believe it.
Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners?
W_B - 18 Aug 2005 22:53 GMT >I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was >pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She >felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth. Teeth don't super-erupt from using an NTI. 1) It is not worn 24/7 2) You take it out to eat, which stimulates the periodontal ligaments, and prevents super-eruption.
>2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to >align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That >could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over >time. Totally bogus. The NTI prevents clenching entirely when constructed correctly.
>3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more >risky/unknown. It is much more effective than the full arch splint. The full arch splint only allows the patient to clench *harder* ! No risk, very little unkown about the NTI.
>4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of >supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later. Bullsh*t. (BTW it's called 'intrusion' and doesn't happen with the NTI)
>I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did >not believe it. Then tell her to contact Dr. Boyd and ask for a sample and she can make one for herself. It's about normalizing the musculature.
>Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and >looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the >entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists >within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners? Slow to adapt, set in their ways, etc... Most of us were taught based on incorrect theories. Some find it tough to discard such ingrained dogma.
The NTI works, period. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Amatus Cremona - 18 Aug 2005 23:04 GMT >I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was > pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: Time to change?
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>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was > pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists > within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners? Fawks - 19 Aug 2005 03:28 GMT Tim Dixon - 19 Aug 2005 02:23 GMT This is not unusual at all. Your current dentist just doesn't know that the appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than just leaving you alone. The database you searched is not all inclusive of every NTI provider in the USA. Those listed have opted to be listed, but there is probably another 8 to 10,000 more that are not. If you give me your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you someone closer.
>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was > pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists > within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners? LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 06:38 GMT >This is not unusual at all. Your current dentist just doesn't know that the >appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you >someone closer. I'm in Palo Alto, California. ZIP codes around here are 94301, 94307, 94310, 94308, 94303, 94304, 94305 (Stanford), & 94309.
Thanks
>>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was >> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists >> within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners? Joel344 - 20 Aug 2005 10:06 GMT Tim Dixon, Dr. Steve Fawks, Dr. Steve Mancuso, W_B (dentist), too many others to name ....... they are reporting that the therapy described, NTI is simple and effective. This means they report that patients with symptoms appear to progress to PATIENTS WITHOUT SYMPTOMS, which is our clinical goal .....
Joel M. Eichen D.D.S.
 Signature Joel344
LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 18:09 GMT >Tim Dixon, Dr. Steve Fawks, Dr. Steve Mancuso, W_B (dentist), too many >others to name ....... I'm not sure which part of my post you are replying to. If it was why there are so few dentists using the NTI, I was referring to the referral list on the NTI website. I am aware that many posters in this ng claiming to be dentists advocate the NTI. I don't doubt that they are, in fact, dentists, but unless they are within 30 minutes or so, they are not too useful to me.
>they are reporting that the therapy described, >NTI is simple and effective. This means they report that patients with >symptoms appear to progress to PATIENTS WITHOUT SYMPTOMS, which is our >clinical goal ..... My question is, which symptoms. I don't have headaches. Never have. I have fractured teeth. Over the last 15 years or so, I have had 2-3 root canals that I was told were because of vertical fractures that went all the way to the root. Most likely cause, bruxism.
Three years ago, I lost a tooth (#15) because it had become loose and then infected. It had had a root canal some time earlier. This was also attributed to bruxism.
Now a few days ago, the gold crown on #19 fell out at breakfast. Fractured just below the gum line. It also had a root canal previously. Tooth cannot be saved. I am looking at another extraction and, since it is not the last tooth, as #15 was, either a bridge or an implant. Again, most probable cause, bruxism.
About 15-20 years ago, I started fracturing teeth vertically and getting root canals. The dentist at that time (I have since moved), blamed bruxism and gave me a hard plastic night guard. There were no more fractures. I was a happy camper.
Within the the past 4 years, I have lost 2 teeth to extractions. The cause is again bruxism. So, either the night guard is no longer working, or it is not working well enough.
Two different dentists (actually 4, counting their associates) have told me that the likely cause is bruxism and all of them recommend the full night guard (hard plastic). All four expressed concerns about the NTI. I even printed up several pages from the web site to show them and they say it is not recommended.
My current dentist gave me two printouts from the Patterson Dental Supply -- one for the NTI and one for a plastic nightguard similar to the one I already have. It's not that they haven't heard of the NTI. They have. They just don't like it.
My dentist even brought the orthodontist from next door over to talk to me. She also recommended the regular nightguard over the NTI.
I would like know what to believe. I don't doubt that the dentists here are telling the truth, but I have 4-5 dentists who are telling me otherwise. It's disturbing.
Interestingly, I have almost no wearing down of my teeth. I just fracture them. One dentist told me that he had never seen anyone with stronger (more overdeveloped) jaw muscles. Apparently, I am clenching more than grinding, right?
The other thing that is somewhat unsettling is the tendency of some people here to evangelize and/or be dismissive. I am trying to find out what is the best for my. I am open to the possibility that my dentists are simply resistant to a new idea. But I would like some hard data. When I ask for it, I get a bit of an attitude. This does not lead me to believe that the device is effective. Objective scientists accept all criticism and respond objectively. True believers rant and counter-attack. Many on this NG tend to the latter.
Bill - 21 Aug 2005 03:13 GMT Lurfysma wrote:
"Over the last 15 years or so, I have had 2-3 root canals that I was told were because of vertical fractures that went all the way to the root. Most likely cause, bruxism.
Three years ago, I lost a tooth (#15) because it had become loose and then infected. It had had a root canal some time earlier. This was also attributed to bruxism."
With these symptoms, it would be prudent to have a anti-bruxism appliance.
"Now a few days ago, the gold crown on #19 fell out at breakfast. Fractured just below the gum line. It also had a root canal previously. Tooth cannot be saved. I am looking at another extraction and, since it is not the last tooth, as #15 was, either a bridge or an implant. Again, most probable cause, bruxism.
About 15-20 years ago, I started fracturing teeth vertically and getting root canals. The dentist at that time (I have since moved), blamed bruxism and gave me a hard plastic night guard. There were no more fractures. I was a happy camper."
So far, so good. This would seem to indicate that the hard plastic guard had a very positive effect. (The NTI is also hard plastic.)
But the following part is a bit confusing:
"Within the the past 4 years, I have lost 2 teeth to extractions. The cause is again bruxism. So, either the night guard is no longer working, or it is not working well enough.
Two different dentists (actually 4, counting their associates) have told me that the likely cause is bruxism and all of them recommend the full night guard (hard plastic)."
Do I understand this passage correctly -- that you already have a full-mouth night guard that is not working well enough, so they are recommending the same? I don't understand that.
"It's not that they haven't heard of the NTI. They have. They just don't like it."
WHY don't they like it? If you read W_B's message earlier, that addressed the concerns that many dentists had in the 1990s when the NTI was new. Many dentists had concerns like that. (I know, I was one of them!) But now we know better, due to many years of research and experience. (See the NTI website.)
"My dentist even brought the orthodontist from next door over to talk to me. She also recommended the regular nightguard over the NTI."
Orthodontists do not receive training or education in the NTI in school, so it is unfamiliar to them. Orthodontists move teeth, but do not generally use ANY sort of guard, as that is usually left for the general dentist to make.
Orthodontists are wonderful resources for information on tooth movement, but the use of nightguards, whether full-coverage or the NTI, falls outside their area of experience.
"I would like know what to believe. I don't doubt that the dentists here are telling the truth, but I have 4-5 dentists who are telling me otherwise. It's disturbing."
Of course it's disturbing. I'll bet that the dentists who are telling you otherwise have no real experience in NTI use or construction. Standard dental education usually covers only the old standard type of nightguard, because when the dental professors went to school twenty or thirty years ago, the NTI did not yet exist.
Back then, the old type of nightguard was all we had, so we had to use it. There was no choice. But as time went on, too many patients still had problems like yours. The development of the NTI was an improvement on the quest to treat such problems.
Now we have a choice in designs for bruxism appliances. The question is which of the two major designs is best for you? You have already tried one, yet you still have catastrophic fractures. Do you think it is time to try the other design? Are there really any technical or dental reasons not to?
There is no evidence that the old full-mouth nightguard can lessen clenching the way it can lessen grinding. There is a LOT of evidence that the NTI can lessen both problems.
In fact, there is evidence that the full-mouth guard actually allows for an increase in clenching, as the back teeth can grip and clench on the plastic. Since the NTI does not allow the back teeth to contact when it is worn, the back teeth cannot clench.
If there are any actual reasons not to try the NTI, please post them here -- I'm sure that W_B and others will be able to address each point one by one. Or, just check at the NTI website, as these questions have been asked and addressed many times before.
"Interestingly, I have almost no wearing down of my teeth. I just fracture them. One dentist told me that he had never seen anyone with stronger (more overdeveloped) jaw muscles. Apparently, I am clenching more than grinding, right?"
That's very insightful of you -- some dentists miss this important point. Grinding can result in worn-down teeth, with bad fractures. Clenching can result in almost no wear on the teeth, but with bad fractures.
So if the problem is suspected to be clenching, what can be done?
Some sort of appliance is needed to stem the tide of fractures. The NTI is not just an appliance, but is more of a supervised treatment program, as the positive changes in clenching may require periodic adjustment of the appliance. A good dentist familiar with the NTI system should be able to help you.
Best regards, - dentaldoc
Tim Dixon - 20 Aug 2005 14:04 GMT >>This is not unusual at all. Your current dentist just doesn't know that the >>appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I'm in Palo Alto, California. ZIP codes around here are 94301, 94307, > 94310, 94308, 94303, 94304, 94305 (Stanford), & 94309. Below is a list of NTI providers within a fairly short distance of you. Surely you can find one to help you. Good luck, and keep us posted.
JAMES LAUGHLIN, DDS PALO ALTO CA 94304
JOSEPH KRAUSS , DDS PALO ALTO CA 94304
Amy Guthrie, DDS, Palo Alto, CA 94301
MARLY KAYSER SNEHA REDDY, DDS REDWOOD CITY CA 94061
NAZILA DOROODIAN ATHERTON DENTAL ATHERTON CA 94027
ELIZABETH P. DOI DDS MENLO PARK CA 94025
GARY SEVELY SUNNYVALE DENTAL OFFICE SUNNYVALE CA 94087
WILLIAM MILLER, DDS WILLIAM MILLER, DDS SUNNYVALE CA 94087
>>>I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was >>> pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -- Joel344 - 20 Aug 2005 14:34 GMT I used to recommend the regular marshmallow in place of the NTI fo people who did not want to get standard one from the dentist. I no recommend the yellow Easter chick peep as it looks less ridiculous tha the marshmallow.
Well, a little less ridiculous.
Either one will keep your teeth slightly apart except when you ar using them for chewing and that's my point.
WHAZZA peep anyway?
See a closely associated thread here somewhere ..... search for "peeps unless you are on MSN in which case every thread will be included, e pEePs?
Joe
-- Joel34
LurfysMa - 20 Aug 2005 18:10 GMT >>>This is not unusual at all. Your current dentist just doesn't know that the >>>appliance she thinks will work, will actually cause you greater harm than [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >WILLIAM MILLER, DDS WILLIAM MILLER, DDS SUNNYVALE CA 94087 Thanks for the list. Amy Guthrie was the one who was listed on the NTI website. The others were not. I have an appointment to see her next week. We'll see what she says.
StovePipe - 20 Aug 2005 15:42 GMT > The database you searched is not all inclusive of > every NTI provider in the USA. Those listed have opted to be listed, but > there is probably another 8 to 10,000 more that are not. If you give me > your zipcode or area (in e-mail if you prefer) I will see if I can find you > someone closer. That is true... You have to ask them to include you on their site, and most don't even bother. SP
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StovePipe - 20 Aug 2005 14:50 GMT > I just returned from talking to my dentist about the NTI. She was > pretty much opposed to it. Her objections were mainly: This is coming to you from the viewpoint of a practitioner who prescribes and places NTI's and wears one himself (as do most of the dentists who prescribe them here:
> 1. Supraeruption. She felt that the teeth that do not touch would > eventually start to erupt. I told her about the web site and even > printed out a couple of pages, but she did not see it that way. She > felt more comfortable with something that touched all teeth. There will be no supraeruption if teeth contact maximally in every twenty-four hour period. Theoretically, you could wear a day appliance and a night appliance, 24/7, minus the time you take for eating, and as long as you took it out for eating, you would not have any supereruption. In practice, nobody keeps their appliances in for so long a time. Therefore, you don't need to worry about supraeruption.
When the back teeth touch, we clench harder. When only the front teeth touch, we mostly have an inhibitory reflex. Try it yourself: crunch a pencil with your back teeth. You don't even have to do it to know that you can easily do so, as you did way back when in school. Now try the same thing with your front teeth: It is allot harder. Your reflexes are trying to protect your front teeth from damage. This is because the front teeth are not designed to clench down on. We have evolved reflexes to prevent too much damage being done when biting too hard on the front teeth. This is why the NTI is designed as it is.
> 2. Jaw positioning. She said that the NTI forces the front teeth to > align tip-to-tip, rather than the lower being inside the upper. That > could cause strain on the jaw and/or changes to the occlusion over > time. Personally, I wish this were true! ;-) I would have less problems with snoring and apnea (my wife assures me I still snore with a volume to bring the house down, and I still kick my feet in bed). The truth is that the muscles find themselves relaxing and bringing the mandible to a 'relaxed muscle' position, and so there is no strain on the jaw, and the changes to the occlusion are interferences that should be adjusted.
> 3. It is no more effective than the full splint and more > risky/unknown. On the contrary, all of the patients that I had on full splints were re-issued NTI's at no additional charge, and all report feeling an new relaxed feeling about the head and neck in the morning, and that means that the muscles were finally allowed to relax at night. This makes it much more effective than the traditional splints. All traditional splints do is shield you from damaging your teeth as you clench. They allow you to clench with more force, and so the muscles never get a chance to relax.
> 4. It could even cause the upper teeth to recess (the opposite of > supreerupt, I forget the term she used) requiruing orthodontia later. This is patently untrue. This doesn't happen at all. You would need alot more force directed along the axis of a tooth to produce intrusion, and you cannot get that with the NTI. I have never seen this, and I have not experienced it myself at all. Your dentist is proposing questions and hypotheses, and that is good. She is ignoring what is known about the NTI, and the responses to her queries and that is not good.
> I told her about the claims about anterior deprogramming and she did > not believe it. Does she have a particular background that gives here a 'right' not to believe it? She obviously has a right to limit what she will and will not do for her patients. Perhaps you, on the other hand, need to find a dentist who is willing to invest some time in learning what this device is and what it will do. Ideally, your dentist should make one for him or herself, and then start doing it for his/her patients.
> Thinking I would get another opinion, I went to the NTI website and > looked for local dentists. Interstingly, there is only one in the > entire area (I checked 9-10 zip codes), yet there are 100 dentists > within 2 miles of my home. Why so few practitioners? It is not a concept that has caught on in the mainstream yet, though it is one that should be taught in the schools. I think that we will have wait for a changing of the guard in the dental schools before it becomes mainstream.
HTH SP
 Signature Finally: take out the TRASHH
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