Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005
Defibrillator/Pacemaker .... SUE, please explain
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Joel344 - 17 Aug 2005 12:17 GMT Are they the same?
I know that an AED, an external defibrillator is the thing with th paddles and the STAND CLEAR warning. But are these defibrillator pacemakers?
Joel
PS~ Sue works in thsi field.
**
Posted on Wed, Aug. 17, 2005
M O R E N E W S F R O M • Medical Equipment • Guidant • FDA • Medicine • Healthcare Industry
Defibrillator cases generate questions
Consumer groups don't like how the FDA oversees recalls by companies o medical devices and drugs.
By Rick Callahan
Associated Press
INDIANAPOLIS - Joyce Tierney and her daughter, Heidi, were rolled of to surgery one morning two years ago just days after learning they ha the same serious heart condition.
They emerged with implanted defibrillators that smoothed their errati heartbeats with periodic jolts of electricity.
All was well until June, when Joyce Tierney, 47, received soberin news: The mother of five from Montpelier, Ind., was among nearly quarter-million Americans whose defibrillators have been recalled thi year due to defects that could cause them to malfunction.
She said she began to wake up at night, "thinking it was a bad dream."
Since January, Indianapolis-based Guidant Corp. and the nation's tw other primary defibrillator-makers - Medtronic Inc., of Fridley, Minn. and St. Jude Medical Inc., of Little Canada, Minn. - have issued recall or safety warnings affecting about 214,000 defibrillators.
The volume of recalls has raised questions about regulatory oversigh and how companies alert doctors and patients about potential defects.
Consumer groups say the recalls highlight what they call the Food an Drug Administration's cumbersome, hands-off process for handlin recalls of medical devices and drugs.
Sidney Wolfe of the consumer watchdog group Public Citizen said th FDA's recall process essentially relies on firms to tell the agenc about potentially defective products.
"All too often, recalls are started late, are done dangerously slowly and, even after they're done, they aren't as complete as they shoul be," Wolfe said.
Guidant has acknowledged waiting three years before telling abou 24,000 patients and their doctors about an electrical-system defec with its Ventak Prizm 2 DR Model 1861, which was recalled June 17 an was linked to two patient deaths.
FDA spokeswoman Julie Zawisza said the agency rarely orders recalls preferring to work with companies to assess the risks posed by product. "It's a judgment call," she said.
That's little consolation to thousands of patients like Tierney, whos Guidant implant was swapped with a new Guidant model during outpatien surgery in June. Her daughter's defibrillator, also a Guidant model was not one of those recalled.
Use of implanted defibrillators in the United States has grown fro about 21,000 in 1995 to more than 250,000 this year, largely because o advances in technology and surgical techniques, according to the Hear Rhythm Society, a group of cardiac-care specialists based i Washington.
Fred McCoy, president of Guidant's Cardiac Rhythm Management division said the company's engineers have worked to ensure the safety an quality of its products. The company said Aug. 1 that it had receive FDA approval to relaunch its top-selling implantable defibrillator, th Contak Renewal 3, which was recalled June 24 because of a faulty switch
-- Joel34
ares - 23 Aug 2005 03:05 GMT I just finished CPR class again and they showed the AED but forgot to find out when you are supposed to use it; is it when you have a breathing patient without a pulse? ares
> Are they the same? > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 > View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2687 Joel344 - 23 Aug 2005 11:27 GMT NOPE!
One cannot be "breathing" yet have no pulse. This is impossible.
But the automated defibrillators will not allow you to make that letha mistake! They monitor the heart for proper conditions before the announce the "STAND CLEAR."
CPR is about A-B-C.
FIRST, send someone to call for help.
STEP TWO:
A is airway .... which is number one with dentistry. The airway ca become blocked say from an impression with alginate that goes awry. S be aware about clearing the AIRWAY.
B is breathing. This is where the CPR begins. One must always ventilat the lungs to exchange gasses. If a patient IS breathing on his own, the the "B" part is no problem.
Backtracking, always ASK first, "Are you okay?" If the person i conscious and says YES or NO, do not begin CPR. They have signed yo off as a possible resusitator!
C is cardiac. If there is no heartbeat (pulse) there can be n breathing, and the airway part is moot. So the CPR addresses th cardiac portion as well.
This is where I disagree with the AHA as to how effective CPR ca perfuse the brain of a person with a non-beating heart. Still ,there i no choice other than waiting for the rescue team. Well today the AED i the other choice. For a patient with a non-beating heart, that ca often make the difference!
I did an interesting study a while back. I took various CPR courses al in one month and I compared them. Very interesting!
Joe
-- Joel34
jshafer817 - 23 Aug 2005 14:07 GMT MY grand father has both, he is 80 years old. The pacemaker\defibulato communicate together preventing both ever being used at the same time One will slow the heart down, and one can keep it going withou skipping a beat.
I think.
=
-- jshafer81
Justin Shafer Onsite Dental Systems 2232 Solona St. Fort Worth, TX. 76117 (817) 909-4222 jshafer817@comcast.ne
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT jshafer817 Wrote:
> MY grand father has both, he is 80 years old. The pacemaker\defibulato > communicate together preventing both ever being used at the same time [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > =) Hi Justin
It is likely that your grandfather has only one device. It sounds lik you are describing the antitachycardia and defibrillation therapies o an* implantable* cardioversion defibrillator (ICD)
Our ICD will "sense" a fast rhthym and will attempt to correct thi before this ever progresses into a lethal arrhythmia called ventricula fibrillation
The device can deliver the following therapies as needed (and dependin upon how the physcian programs the device):
-*antitachycardia pacing* (slows fast heart beat
-*cardioversion* (provides a stronger impulse if the antitachy pacin is unable to correct the fast rhythm)
-*defibrillation *(to correct ventricular fibrillation which is lethal arrhythmia that will result in death if not corrected
-*bradycardia pacing* (will provide pacing for a slow heart beat
It is likely that your grandfather either sufferred from a myocardia infarction (heart attack) in the past or suffers from a congenita heart defect that makes him more vulnerable to experiencing letha arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death
My guess is he has had at least one MI in the past
Vice president Cheney also has an ICD
For more information please visi http://tinyurl.com/bp2s
If you have any questions please feel free to ask
Su
-- Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT P.S. To Justin... or your grandfather suffers from congestive hear failure
-- Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:06 GMT >P.S. To Justin... or your grandfather suffers from congestive heart >failure. Lovely.
An internet diagnosis.
How can you be so sure ? --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:35 GMT W_B Wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:51:51 GMT, Sue <S.C.MADDEN@COMCAST.NET>wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Take out the G'RBAG > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W-B
Sorry. I am not trying to diagnose Justin's grandfatehr. ICDs ar reimbursed but cost somewhere ~$40,000. These are not prescribe l;ightly
To my knowledge and i belive I am correct. I will verify. The onl people who can receiev ICDs and be reimbursed via insuranceh are peopl who are at high risk for sudden cardiac death (SCD). I suppose someon who is extremely wealthy and paranoid can convince their physician t implant one but I have never heard of no cases like this
The people who get ICDs have one or more of the following risk factors
-previous MI
-congenital heart defect that predisposes that person to potentia lethal cardiac arrhythmia (Example: Long Qt Syndrome
-advanced symptomatic congestive heart failure (Class III CHF patient are more suscpetible to SCD than Class IV)
I will check this out for sure because we are working to increas reimbursement opportunities, but this is my "working" knowledge as o today
So now on my list to check
-who gets IC
-% survival estimates for CPR versus CPR + AE
Later then
Su
-- Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:35 GMT uggh... sorry so many typos! I hope you can make out what I wrote.
Su
-- Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:55 GMT >uggh... sorry so many typos! I hope you can make out what I wrote. > >Sue Yeah, I just skipped the whole thing... --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:07 GMT W_B Wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:35:44 GMT, Sue <S.C.MADDEN@COMCAST.NET>wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Take out the G'RBAG > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Sorry you skipped it. I guess that is why you thought I was trying t diagnose Justin's grandfather. If you had read it, you would have understood that I was not making a diagnosis
Su
-- Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 22:17 GMT >W_B Wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Yeah, I just skipped the whole thing... >> --
>Sorry you skipped it. I guess that is why you thought I was trying to >diagnose Justin's grandfather. If you had read it, you would have >understood that I was not making a diagnosis. > >Sue The first amendment gives you the right to speak freely.
It does *not* give you the right to be heard or to make anyone listen. --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:31 GMT W_B Wrote:
> >W_B Wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com W_B,
I do not expect to "make" anyone do anything.
You are free to exercise your rights. I am free to exercise mine.
Sue
 Signature Sue
Tom - 24 Aug 2005 21:12 GMT >>W_B Wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >It does *not* give you the right to be heard or to make >anyone listen. Hey.. surprise surprise.. usenet is not America.. bozo.
Tom
Sue - 24 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT Reply to Tom. "Usenet is not America... Bozo"Is W_B always this crank or what? :-
-- Su
Tom - 28 Aug 2005 23:15 GMT >Reply to Tom. "Usenet is not America... Bozo"Is W_B always this cranky >or what? :-) OK... point taken :-)
Tom
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:03 GMT W_B
Sorry again. I am not a doctor and I do not diagnose patients. M comments were made based upon who is indicated for ICD (vi reimbursement guidelines)
Here is more information that explains
"Until recently, the only people who qualified for an ICD eithe suffered from potentially lethal abnormal heart rhythms, or ha survived a previous cardiac arrest. But in recent years, officia guidelines have extended their use to include many patients who ar deemed likely to suffer heart failure. Over the past seven years, th number of people receiving ICDs in the United States has increase nearly fivefold.
'_http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/pf/435014a_pf.html_ (http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/pf/435014a_pf.html The above article talks about the debate about who should get an ICD It paints the medical device industry as being opportunistic (a usual). We want to sell as many as we can. We do not care if th patient truly needs one. (uggh!!!!
You have no idea how many caring people are involved in research an development of these devices and how our company makes marketin decisions. Of course we are smart business people and do what we ca to maximize profits where we can, but not at the expense of th patient
The media likes to portray otherwise.
We care about patients. Under and overtreatment decisions ar determined by the physician, not us
We are also very conscious of overall medical costs. We are workin to minimize overhead costs for these sorts of devices, but it i difficult
There are so many factors involved
Su
-- Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT And this has *what?* to do with dentistry...?
A rhetorical question to be sure...
>W_B, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >number of people receiving ICDs in the United States has increased >nearly fivefold." --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:03 GMT Joel344 Wrote:
> NOPE > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Joel Thanks Joel. Exactly right
CPR = ABC as you described. Approximately 80% of the people who receiv CPR alone will die
An AED that can provide EARLY defibrillation greatly increases one' chance for survival.
I will check back later wite the statisitcs
Su P.S. You are right about the breathing and pulse. But have you eve studied or heard about PULSELESS ELECTRICAL ACTIVITY (*PEA* ELECTRO-MECHANICAL *DISSOCIATION* (EMD)?
(if so, maybe we can discuss this on another thread at another time
-- Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:07 GMT P.S. Since I cannot edit my typos. Please disregard exact stat regarding CPR and survival rates until I can find verifcation of th correct stats.Su
-- Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:54 GMT How about we just disregard you entirely ?
>P.S. Since I cannot edit my typos. Please disregard exact stats >regarding CPR and survival rates until I can find verifcation of the >correct stats.Sue --
W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Administrator - 28 Aug 2005 23:45 GMT W_B Wrote:
> How about we just disregard you entirely ? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Hey W_B, she is exactly right. He does have congestive heart failure..
U need a chill pill..
 Signature Administrator
A+ N+ MCP2000 Microsoft Certified Professional and Red Hat Linux Certified Technician Justin Shafer Onsite Dental Systems Fort Worth, TX. 8179094222 ' ' (http://tinyurl.com/5jhcs)
Sue - 30 Aug 2005 17:49 GMT Justin wrote: He does have congestive heart failure..
REPLY.
Justin, If your grandfather suffers from congestive heart failure and he has an ICD, I would be curious to know what device he has. Medtronic has a device called the Insync ICD. This device not only provides all of the therapies I described previously (defibrillation, etc), but it also applies a special type of pacing. This pacing is called biventricular pacing whereby the left and right ventricles are paced together.
In advanced CHF, the heart becomes enlarged due to remodelling of the cardiac tissue. As the heart remodels, some people develop an electrical conduction problem called left bundle branch block (LBBB). When this occurs, there is a delay between the contraction of the left and right ventricles resulting an uncoordinated (asynchronous) contraction. This asynchronous contraction is much less efficient than a coordinated (synchronous) contraction.
We have found that if we can coordinate this pattern by pacing the left and right sides together, heart failure symptoms can be improved dramatically for many patients. We suspect that this therapy also effects some reverse remodelling as it unloads the heart of the "extra work" that the uncoordinated pattern creates.
I (along with 100s of others) worked on the research & development of this technology. I am really proud of this technology.
Of course, we were not the only ones working on it. Our comepetitors were too. But the the really neat thing is, we (collectively speaking) now have a new treatment for heart failure that in some patients dramatically improves the quality of their lives!
In the past, heart failure was managed solely through drug therapy.
Note: BiV pacing does not replace drug therapy and is not considered a cure. However it has been considerd a tremendous breakthrough for cardiologists managing heart failure patients and for patients whose symptoms have kept them for the most part, bed-ridden. For some it has been like a miracle.
Unfortunately not all patients respond to BiV pacing. We are working to determine why some respond so dramatically and other less so. There are so many factors involved (heart failure etiology, whether or not LBBB is present, atrial ventricular interval.. so much more..)
But it is interesting and fulfilling research as we can actually see the benefits for many patients. -Sue
 Signature Sue
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