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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005

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Defibrillator/Pacemaker .... SUE, please explain

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Joel344 - 17 Aug 2005 12:17 GMT
Are they the same?

I know that an AED, an external defibrillator is the thing with th
paddles and the STAND CLEAR warning. But are these defibrillator
pacemakers?

Joel

PS~ Sue works in thsi field.

**

Posted on Wed, Aug. 17, 2005

M O R E   N E W S   F R O M    
• Medical Equipment
• Guidant
• FDA
• Medicine
• Healthcare Industry

Defibrillator cases generate questions

Consumer groups don't like how the FDA oversees recalls by companies o
medical devices and drugs.

By Rick Callahan

Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS - Joyce Tierney and her daughter, Heidi, were rolled of
to surgery one morning two years ago just days after learning they ha
the same serious heart condition.

They emerged with implanted defibrillators that smoothed their errati
heartbeats with periodic jolts of electricity.

All was well until June, when Joyce Tierney, 47, received soberin
news: The mother of five from Montpelier, Ind., was among nearly
quarter-million Americans whose defibrillators have been recalled thi
year due to defects that could cause them to malfunction.

She said she began to wake up at night, "thinking it was a bad dream."

Since January, Indianapolis-based Guidant Corp. and the nation's tw
other primary defibrillator-makers - Medtronic Inc., of Fridley, Minn.
and St. Jude Medical Inc., of Little Canada, Minn. - have issued recall
or safety warnings affecting about 214,000 defibrillators.

The volume of recalls has raised questions about regulatory oversigh
and how companies alert doctors and patients about potential defects.

Consumer groups say the recalls highlight what they call the Food an
Drug Administration's cumbersome, hands-off process for handlin
recalls of medical devices and drugs.

Sidney Wolfe of the consumer watchdog group Public Citizen said th
FDA's recall process essentially relies on firms to tell the agenc
about potentially defective products.

"All too often, recalls are started late, are done dangerously slowly
and, even after they're done, they aren't as complete as they shoul
be," Wolfe said.

Guidant has acknowledged waiting three years before telling abou
24,000 patients and their doctors about an electrical-system defec
with its Ventak Prizm 2 DR Model 1861, which was recalled June 17 an
was linked to two patient deaths.

FDA spokeswoman Julie Zawisza said the agency rarely orders recalls
preferring to work with companies to assess the risks posed by
product. "It's a judgment call," she said.

That's little consolation to thousands of patients like Tierney, whos
Guidant implant was swapped with a new Guidant model during outpatien
surgery in June. Her daughter's defibrillator, also a Guidant model
was not one of those recalled.

Use of implanted defibrillators in the United States has grown fro
about 21,000 in 1995 to more than 250,000 this year, largely because o
advances in technology and surgical techniques, according to the Hear
Rhythm Society, a group of cardiac-care specialists based i
Washington.

Fred McCoy, president of Guidant's Cardiac Rhythm Management division
said the company's engineers have worked to ensure the safety an
quality of its products. The company said Aug. 1 that it had receive
FDA approval to relaunch its top-selling implantable defibrillator, th
Contak Renewal 3, which was recalled June 24 because of a faulty switch

--
Joel34
ares - 23 Aug 2005 03:05 GMT
I just finished CPR class again and they showed the AED but forgot to find
out when you are supposed to use it; is it when you have a breathing patient
without a pulse?
ares

> Are they the same?
>
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
> Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12
> View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2687
Joel344 - 23 Aug 2005 11:27 GMT
NOPE!

One cannot be "breathing" yet have no pulse. This is impossible.

But the automated defibrillators will not allow you to make that letha
mistake! They monitor the heart for proper conditions before the
announce the "STAND CLEAR."

CPR is about A-B-C.

FIRST, send someone to call for help.

STEP TWO:

A is airway .... which is number one with dentistry. The airway ca
become blocked say from an impression with alginate that goes awry. S
be aware about clearing the AIRWAY.

B is breathing. This is where the CPR begins. One must always ventilat
the lungs to exchange gasses. If a patient IS breathing on his own, the
the "B" part is no problem.

Backtracking, always ASK first, "Are you okay?" If the person i
conscious and says YES or NO, do not begin CPR. They have signed yo
off as a possible resusitator!

C is cardiac. If there is no heartbeat (pulse) there can be n
breathing, and the airway part is moot. So the CPR addresses th
cardiac portion as well.

This is where I disagree with the AHA as to how effective CPR ca
perfuse the brain of a person with a non-beating heart. Still ,there i
no choice other than waiting for the rescue team. Well today the AED i
the other choice. For a patient with a non-beating heart, that ca
often make the difference!

I did an interesting study a while back. I took various CPR courses al
in one month and I compared them. Very interesting!

Joe

--
Joel34
jshafer817 - 23 Aug 2005 14:07 GMT
MY grand father has both, he is 80 years old. The pacemaker\defibulato
communicate together preventing both ever being used at the same time
One will slow the heart down, and one can keep it going withou
skipping a beat.

I think.

=

--
jshafer81

Justin Shafer
Onsite Dental Systems
2232 Solona St.
Fort Worth, TX. 76117
(817) 909-4222
jshafer817@comcast.ne
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT
jshafer817 Wrote:
> MY grand father has both, he is 80 years old. The pacemaker\defibulato
> communicate together preventing both ever being used at the same time
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> =)

Hi Justin

It is likely that your grandfather has only one device.  It sounds lik
you are describing the antitachycardia and defibrillation therapies o
an* implantable* cardioversion defibrillator (ICD)

Our ICD will "sense" a fast rhthym and will attempt to correct thi
before this ever progresses into a lethal arrhythmia called ventricula
fibrillation

The device can deliver the following therapies as needed (and dependin
upon how the physcian programs the device):

-*antitachycardia pacing* (slows fast heart beat

-*cardioversion* (provides a stronger impulse if the antitachy pacin
is unable to correct the fast rhythm)  

-*defibrillation  *(to correct ventricular fibrillation which is
lethal arrhythmia that will result in death if not corrected

-*bradycardia pacing*  (will provide pacing for a slow heart beat

It is likely that your grandfather either sufferred from a myocardia
infarction (heart attack) in the past or suffers from a congenita
heart defect that makes him more vulnerable to experiencing letha
arrhythmias and sudden cardiac death

My guess is he has had at least one MI in the past

Vice president Cheney also has an ICD

For more information please visi
http://tinyurl.com/bp2s

If you have any questions please feel free to ask

Su

--
Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 20:51 GMT
P.S. To Justin... or your grandfather suffers from congestive hear
failure

--
Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:06 GMT
>P.S. To Justin... or your grandfather suffers from congestive heart
>failure.

Lovely.

An internet diagnosis.

How can you be so sure ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:35 GMT
W_B Wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:51:51 GMT, Sue <S.C.MADDEN@COMCAST.NET>wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAG
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W-B

Sorry.  I am not trying to diagnose Justin's grandfatehr.  ICDs ar
reimbursed but cost somewhere ~$40,000.  These are not prescribe
l;ightly

To my knowledge and i belive I am correct.  I will verify. The onl
people who can receiev ICDs and be reimbursed via insuranceh are peopl
who are at high risk for sudden cardiac death (SCD).  I suppose someon
who is extremely wealthy and paranoid can convince their physician t
implant one but I have never heard of no cases like this

The people who get ICDs have one or more of the following risk factors

-previous MI

-congenital heart defect that predisposes that person to potentia
lethal cardiac arrhythmia (Example: Long Qt Syndrome

-advanced symptomatic congestive heart failure (Class III CHF patient
are more suscpetible to SCD than Class IV)

I will check this out for sure because we are working to increas
reimbursement opportunities, but this is my "working" knowledge as o
today

So now on my list to check

-who gets IC

-% survival estimates for CPR versus CPR + AE

Later then

Su

--
Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:35 GMT
uggh... sorry so many typos!  I hope you can make out what I wrote.

Su

--
Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:55 GMT
>uggh... sorry so many typos!  I hope you can make out what I wrote.
>
>Sue

Yeah, I just skipped the whole thing...
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:07 GMT
W_B Wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:35:44 GMT, Sue <S.C.MADDEN@COMCAST.NET>wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAG
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sorry you skipped it.  I guess that is why you thought I was trying t
diagnose Justin's grandfather.  If you had read it, you would have
understood that I was not making a diagnosis

Su

--
Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 22:17 GMT
>W_B Wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Yeah, I just skipped the whole thing...
>> --

>Sorry you skipped it.  I guess that is why you thought I was trying to
>diagnose Justin's grandfather.  If you had read it, you would have
>understood that I was not making a diagnosis.
>
>Sue

The first amendment gives you the right to speak freely.

It does *not* give you the right to be heard or to make
anyone listen.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:31 GMT
W_B Wrote:

> >W_B Wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
W_B,

I do not expect to "make" anyone do anything.

You are free to exercise your rights. I am free to
exercise mine.  

Sue

Signature

Sue

Tom - 24 Aug 2005 21:12 GMT
>>W_B Wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>It does *not* give you the right to be heard or to make
>anyone listen.

Hey.. surprise surprise.. usenet is not America.. bozo.

Tom
Sue - 24 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT
Reply to Tom.  "Usenet is not America... Bozo"Is W_B always this crank
or what? :-

--
Su
Tom - 28 Aug 2005 23:15 GMT
>Reply to Tom.  "Usenet is not America... Bozo"Is W_B always this cranky
>or what? :-)

OK... point taken  :-)

Tom
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 22:03 GMT
W_B

Sorry again.  I am not a doctor and I do not diagnose patients.  M
comments were made based upon who is indicated for ICD (vi
reimbursement guidelines)

Here is more information that explains

"Until recently, the only people who qualified for an ICD eithe
suffered from potentially lethal abnormal heart rhythms, or ha
survived a previous cardiac arrest. But in recent years, officia
guidelines have extended their use to include many patients who ar
deemed likely to suffer heart failure. Over the past seven years, th
number of people receiving ICDs in the United States has increase
nearly fivefold.

'_http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/pf/435014a_pf.html_
(http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050502/pf/435014a_pf.html
The above article talks about the debate about who should get an ICD
It paints the medical device industry as being opportunistic (a
usual). We want to sell as many as we can. We do not care if th
patient truly needs one. (uggh!!!!

You have no idea how many caring people are involved in research an
development of these devices and how our company makes marketin
decisions.  Of course we are smart business people and do what we ca
to maximize profits where we can, but not at the expense of th
patient

The media likes to portray otherwise.  

We care about patients. Under and overtreatment decisions ar
determined by the physician, not us

We are also very conscious of overall medical costs.  We  are workin
to minimize overhead costs for these sorts of devices, but it i
difficult

There are so many factors involved

Su

--
Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 22:16 GMT
And this has *what?* to do with dentistry...?

A rhetorical question to be sure...

>W_B,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>number of people receiving ICDs in the United States has increased
>nearly fivefold."

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:03 GMT
Joel344 Wrote:
> NOPE
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Joel
Thanks Joel.  Exactly right

CPR = ABC as you described. Approximately 80% of the people who receiv
CPR alone will die

An AED that can provide EARLY defibrillation greatly increases one'
chance for survival.

I will check back later wite the statisitcs

Su
P.S. You are right about the breathing and pulse. But have you eve
studied or heard about PULSELESS ELECTRICAL ACTIVITY (*PEA*
ELECTRO-MECHANICAL *DISSOCIATION* (EMD)?

(if so, maybe we can discuss this  on another thread at another time

--
Su
Sue - 23 Aug 2005 21:07 GMT
P.S.  Since I cannot edit my typos.  Please disregard exact stat
regarding CPR and survival rates until I can find verifcation of th
correct stats.Su

--
Su
W_B - 23 Aug 2005 21:54 GMT
How about we just disregard you entirely ?

>P.S.  Since I cannot edit my typos.  Please disregard exact stats
>regarding CPR and survival rates until I can find verifcation of the
>correct stats.Sue

--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Administrator - 28 Aug 2005 23:45 GMT
W_B Wrote:
> How about we just disregard you entirely ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Hey W_B, she is exactly right. He does have congestive heart failure..

U need a chill pill..

Signature

Administrator

A+ N+ MCP2000 Microsoft Certified Professional and Red Hat Linux
Certified Technician
Justin Shafer
Onsite Dental Systems
Fort Worth, TX.
8179094222
'
' (http://tinyurl.com/5jhcs)

Sue - 30 Aug 2005 17:49 GMT
Justin wrote: He does have congestive heart failure..

REPLY.

Justin,
If your grandfather suffers from congestive heart failure
and he has an ICD, I would be curious to know what
device he has.  Medtronic has a device called the Insync
ICD.  This device not only provides all of the therapies
I described previously (defibrillation, etc), but it also
applies a special type of pacing.  This pacing is called
biventricular pacing whereby the left and right ventricles
are paced together.

In advanced CHF, the heart becomes enlarged due to
remodelling of the cardiac tissue. As the heart remodels,
some people develop an electrical conduction problem
called left bundle branch block (LBBB).  When this occurs,
there is a delay between the contraction of the left and right
ventricles resulting an uncoordinated (asynchronous)
contraction. This asynchronous contraction is much
less efficient than a coordinated (synchronous) contraction.

We have found that if we can coordinate this pattern by
pacing the left and right sides together, heart failure
symptoms can be improved dramatically for many
patients.  We suspect that this therapy also effects some
reverse remodelling as it unloads the heart of the "extra
work" that the uncoordinated pattern creates.

I (along with 100s of others) worked on the research
& development of this technology.  I am really proud
of this technology.  

Of course, we were not the only ones working on it.  Our comepetitors
were too.   But the the really neat thing is,
we (collectively speaking) now have a new treatment for
heart failure that in some patients dramatically improves
the quality of their lives!

In the past, heart failure was managed solely through drug
therapy.  

Note: BiV pacing  does not replace drug therapy and is not
considered a cure. However it has been considerd a tremendous  
breakthrough for cardiologists managing heart failure patients
and for patients whose symptoms have kept them for the most
part, bed-ridden.  For some it has been like a miracle.  

Unfortunately not all patients respond to BiV pacing.  We are
working to  determine why some respond so dramatically
and other less so.  There are so many factors involved (heart failure
etiology, whether or not LBBB is present, atrial ventricular interval..
so much more..)

But it is interesting and fulfilling research as we can actually
see the benefits for many patients.  -Sue

Signature

Sue


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