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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005

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This Commerical Building Is Perfect For A Dental Office

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Joel344 - 12 Aug 2005 11:56 GMT
.

Neighborhood view .......

.

[image: http://photos22.flickr.com/25307980_303b4a3b45_o.jpg]

.

Unusual commercial building ....... 105 feet deep, but only 5 fee
wide!
Perfect for a dental office .....

.

[image: http://www.seechinatown.com/thin/x360-33a.jpg]

.

--
Joel34
Flap - 12 Aug 2005 17:37 GMT
Flap had an assignment in a converted house, completely remodeled.

Very cool and comfy.

Only three treatment rooms but was a nice private office in Santa Maria.
Bill - 12 Aug 2005 18:53 GMT
> ..
>
> Neighborhood view .......
>
> [image: http://photos22.flickr.com/25307980_303b4a3b45_o.jpg]

This looks very much like old Philly.  Just three days ago I hiked
around a neighborhood that looked like this one, within walking
distance of Ben Franklin's house and Independence Hall:

http://tinypic.com/adp0tz.jpg

Lots of very gentrified, upscale townhomes with this architectural
style are found not far from the waterfront where the Olympia and
Becuna are berthed.

http://tinypic.com/adp6dl.jpg

- dentaldoc
Joel344 - 13 Aug 2005 00:04 GMT
Beautiful photos, Bill. Is that film or a digital camera?

The second photo is Olympia, Admiral Dewey's flagship from the  
Spanish American War (1898). Becuna is a submarine visible in
the lower left corner.

The big building above the ships is the U.S. Customs House. I was
inside once. I had imported lots of denture teeth in a previous life
and needed an Importer's Bond.

I have made your links visible by adding the

[ i m g ] and [ / i m g ] tags,

..without the spaces, of course! These are vBulletin tags.

Joel

Bill Wrote:
> > ..
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> - dentaldoc

Signature

Joel344

Bill - 13 Aug 2005 17:35 GMT
Joel wrote:

"The second photo is Olympia, Admiral Dewey's flagship from the
Spanish American War (1898). Becuna is a submarine visible in
the lower left corner."

Did you say Becuna? Here's the Becuna! (Surely a camera maniac like me
wouldn't take pictures of only ONE vessel, even if it's the victor of
Manila Bay . . . )

http://tinypic.com/aevew0.jpg

Does this make the link visible? here:

[IMG]http://tinypic.com/aevew0.jpg[/IMG]

- dentaldoc
Bill - 13 Aug 2005 17:48 GMT
Joel wrote:

"Beautiful photos, Bill. Is that film or a digital camera?"

These pics were taken with a digital camera. As a matter of fact, when
I uploaded these pics to tinypic.com, the JPEGs included the EXIF
information with the pictures. If you have image viewing software that
can display the EXIF info (I use the free Irfanview software from the
Web) it will tell you the camera make and the date of the picture
(assuming the photographer remembered to set the date on his camera).
It will also tell a lot about the focus and exposure -- more than most
folks would want to know.

I usually crop and adjust contrast in Irfanview before printing or
posting pictures. It fools people into thinking I know how to take
pictures, which is fine with me.  :-)

- dentaldoc
Bill - 13 Aug 2005 18:29 GMT
Joel wrote:

http://tinypic.com/adp6dl.jpg

"The big building above the ships is the U.S. Customs House. I was
inside once. I had imported lots of denture teeth in a previous life
and needed an Importer's Bond."

I didn't know you were an importer. Although I "import" dental supplies
from Chicago Dental Supply way out in Illinois, I don't think that's
quite the same thing.  ;-)

Didn't the Italians used to make a lot of denture teeth? And the Swiss
as well, and of course, the Germans?

Speaking of custom houses, hiking around Old Philadelphia I also
encountered the early-1800s Greek Revival-style building for the Second
Bank of the United States. I understand that after President Jackson
opposed the national bank, this classic building was used as the
Philadelphia Customs House for much of the 19th Century. An impressive
structure, but not nearly as big as the 20th-Century building you
entered for the importer's bond. I guess bureaucracy grows as time goes
by!

http://tinypic.com/aewndl.jpg

[IMG]http://tinypic.com/aewndl.jpg[/IMG]

- dentaldoc
Vaughn - 13 Aug 2005 19:18 GMT
> Joel wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Speaking of custom houses,

    Speaking of Customs houses, as a test of your history (or Googling) skills:
What former US President was once honcho of the New York Customs house (before
he was President) and was such a rascal that he was kicked out by the then US
President in an attempt to reform the place?

Vaughn
Joel344 - 13 Aug 2005 23:28 GMT
The Second Bank is an interesting building. It was formerly the
National Portrait Gallery. The First Bank is very interesting and
imposing as well.

The entirte monetary history of the U.S. is wound up in the
Second Bank. Nicholas Biddle was another historic figure of the
times. The Biddles are still quite active in the Philadelphia
Quaker community.

Joel

Signature

Joel344

Joel344 - 13 Aug 2005 23:37 GMT
DentalDoc Wrote:

> Joel wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Does this make the link visible? here:

Yes, we can see the photo of the Becuna. Its very crisp and clear
There are a number of interesting spaces within Admiral Dewey'
flagship, U.S.S. Olympia. One is the sick bay, complete with a denta
chair and some primitive (circa 1898) dental instruments. Hey! I stil
got some of those instruments!

Joe

--
Joel34
Joel344 - 13 Aug 2005 23:41 GMT
Biography of James Garfield
As President, Garfield strengthened Federal authority over the New Yor
Customs
House, stronghold of Senator Roscoe Conkling, who was leader of th
Stalwart ...
www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jg20.html - 35k - Cached
Similar pages

Welcome to The American Presidency
Chester Arthur was elected vice president on the ticket with James A
Garfield in
.. In 1871, Arthur became the collector of the New York Customs House
..
ap.grolier.com/article?assetid=atb048b01
templatename=/article/article.html - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Chester A. Arthur
President Grant in 1871 appointed him Collector of the Port of Ne
York.
Arthur effectively marshalled the thousand Customs House employee
under his ...
clinton4.nara.gov/WH/glimpse/presidents/html/ca21.html - 15k - Cached
Similar page

--
Joel34
Bill - 14 Aug 2005 00:18 GMT
Joel wrote:

"There are a number of interesting spaces within Admiral Dewey's
flagship, U.S.S. Olympia. One is the sick bay, complete with a dental
chair and some primitive (circa 1898) dental instruments. Hey! I still
got some of those instruments!"

I think I do too -- but I only bring them out for special patients!
;-)

- dentaldoc
Vaughn - 14 Aug 2005 02:52 GMT
> There are a number of interesting spaces within Admiral Dewey's
> flagship, U.S.S. Olympia. One is the sick bay, complete with a dental
> chair and some primitive (circa 1898) dental instruments. Hey! I still
> got some of those instruments!

    It is amazing how some technology changes slow enough that stuff from 100
years ago is quite recognizable.  I also had a chance to wander around the
Olympia a few decades ago.  At that time, I was a US Navy nuclear reactor
operator on a Polaris submaring, but the Navy insisted that I know a lot about
the steam plant that my reactor powered.  I could trace all of the main pipes in
that old coal engine room and tell you the functions of most of the equipment.
A steam plant has to have certain things or it just ain't a steam plant.  Coal,
nuclear, it is all much the same.

    I'll bet that I could make myself quite useful in that old engine room.  Do
you think you could function in a 100 year-old operatory?

Vaughn
Bill - 14 Aug 2005 01:01 GMT
At first, I think of Chester Arthur. But now I'll have to go look it up
to see how far off I was.

- dentaldoc
Vaughn - 14 Aug 2005 02:26 GMT
> At first, I think of Chester Arthur. But now I'll have to go look it up
> to see how far off I was.

    Bingo!

    The really strange thing about him is that after abusing the spoils system
at the Customs House enough to make himself infamous on a national level, he
accidently became President and then invented the Civil Service which
effectively ended the spoils system.

Vaughn
Bill - 14 Aug 2005 22:10 GMT
"  The really strange thing about him is that after abusing the spoils
system
at the Customs House enough to make himself infamous on a national
level, he
accidently became President and then invented the Civil Service which
effectively ended the spoils system."

______________

They say that familiarity breeds contempt. Maybe Arthur was so familiar
with the spoils system that he developed a lot of contempt for it!

Why not? By the time you're President, you don't have to worry about
climbing the next step up the ladder.

- dentaldoc
Vaughn - 15 Aug 2005 01:30 GMT
> Why not? By the time you're President, you don't have to worry about
> climbing the next step up the ladder.

    I like to think that we was a scroundrel that somehow saw the light and
became a reformer, but the other possibility is that he already "had his" and
that there was some baser, perhaps political, reason for his actions.

Vaughn
Bill - 15 Aug 2005 19:40 GMT
   I like to think that we was a scroundrel that somehow saw the light
and
became a reformer, but the other possibility is that he already "had
his" and
that there was some baser, perhaps political, reason for his actions.

Vaughn

_____________

Could be! You never know about politicians.

- dentaldoc
StovePipe - 13 Aug 2005 00:22 GMT
> http://tinypic.com/adp6dl.jpg

Howdy, Bill. These are some of the best wide angle photos I've seen yet
from a digital camera: NO distortion at all around the edges.

So tell me: what is the camera you are using?

Thanks

BTW: here are some of my friends gathered to wish me a happy birthday in
front of my clinic.

http://archiv.radio.cz/pictures/mmf/demonstrace010.jpg

--NOT!--      :-/
SP

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Bill - 13 Aug 2005 18:01 GMT
BTW: here are some of my friends gathered to wish me a happy birthday
in
front of my clinic.

http://archiv.radio.cz/pictures/mmf/demonstrace010.jpg

--NOT!--      :-/
SP

I didn't know that McDonalds's now sells doughnuts!  ;-)

- dentaldoc
Bill - 13 Aug 2005 19:14 GMT
Bill <dental...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://tinypic.com/adp6dl.jpg

Howdy, Bill. These are some of the best wide angle photos I've seen yet

from a digital camera: NO distortion at all around the edges.

So tell me: what is the camera you are using?

Hey, StovePipe!

I'm using a Gateway DC-M50 5-megapixel camera. This is exactly the same
model as the Argus 3810, with a different nameplate. (I have one of
each -- one purchased off the shelf in 2003 at full retail, the other
"used" on eBay for UNDER $100. I saw one go on eBay for about $75
later.)

As far as wide-angle goes, it appears to me that when the optical zoom
(not digital zoom!) is used on a digital camera, it narrows the actual
taking angle of the lens, so any edge distortion should be reduced. I
use the optical zoom feature of my digital cameras a lot, but not the
digital zoom.

Also, by cropping the top and bottom from the original photo, it can
make the resulting picture seem to be VERY wide angle. I crop most of
my photos using Irfanview, which like most good image-manipulation
software (a poor man's Photoshop) allows the user to crop, brighten,
adjust colors and contrast, and the like.

It's amazing what you can do on a computer these days and I'm not even
an expert.

This model digital camera tends to underexpose, but its exposure
compensation feature allows you to adjust for more exposure, or less,
too. The flash is far too weak, in my opinion, so I always use a Kodak
or HP camera for flash shots.

Where this model shines is in its ability to take very close-up
pictures without flash:

http://tinypic.com/aexp1g.jpg

I use it in the office as an el-cheapo way to get photos of teeth. It's
also good for taking close pictures of crowns and dentures to show the
labs where I want the margins improved and so on. Wal-Mart across the
street makes prints very economically. Wal-Mart and its competitors
also provide cheap hard-copy prints you can order online.

Outdoors, the 5-MP capacity allows for substantial cropping on the
computer without visible loss of picture clarity. The lens seems to be
nice and sharp.

I'm sure other, more expensive models would do as well.  ;-)

By the way, I upload these JPEGs with the EXIF info still attached. If
you download the picture to your computer, many image-viewing programs
(like Irfanview) will allow you to see the EXIF info. That will tell
you the date, the model camera, the exposure, and all sorts of
shutterbug information, on each and every photo.

And to think that the electronic revolution is just starting . . .

- dentaldoc
StovePipe - 14 Aug 2005 00:18 GMT
> Bill <dental...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > http://tinypic.com/adp6dl.jpg
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> "used" on eBay for UNDER $100. I saw one go on eBay for about $75
> later.)

A-Ha... I should have told YOU that. This is the exact same camera I
asked you about last year. It would have been much better than the
little HP that we took down South.

> As far as wide-angle goes, it appears to me that when the optical zoom
> (not digital zoom!) is used on a digital camera, it narrows the actual
> taking angle of the lens, so any edge distortion should be reduced. I
> use the optical zoom feature of my digital cameras a lot, but not the
> digital zoom.

OK... digital zoom cuts down on the pixelisation I guess...

> Also, by cropping the top and bottom from the original photo, it can
> make the resulting picture seem to be VERY wide angle. I crop most of
> my photos using Irfanview, which like most good image-manipulation
> software (a poor man's Photoshop) allows the user to crop, brighten,
> adjust colors and contrast, and the like.

I could do that on the Mac, Yes. It's just that your pics really look
like the viewer is RIGHT THERE in the photo. When I get some of my pics
from down South up, you'll see that they are NOT as inviting. I _will_
try cropping them, though.

> It's amazing what you can do on a computer these days and I'm not even
> an expert.

That may be, but you have a good eye. That is the most important part.

> This model digital camera tends to underexpose, but its exposure
> compensation feature allows you to adjust for more exposure, or less,
> too. The flash is far too weak, in my opinion, so I always use a Kodak
> or HP camera for flash shots.

OK. So you'd travel with more than one camera. Got it.

> Where this model shines is in its ability to take very close-up
> pictures without flash:
>
> http://tinypic.com/aexp1g.jpg

That is AMAZING.... such detail. And of course, have to ask: is that a
real (discontinued) coin?

It's been years since I was there, but I believe in Jamaica, they still
have a 2 cent coin.

> I use it in the office as an el-cheapo way to get photos of teeth. It's
> also good for taking close pictures of crowns and dentures to show the
> labs where I want the margins improved and so on. Wal-Mart across the
> street makes prints very economically. Wal-Mart and its competitors
> also provide cheap hard-copy prints you can order online.

Well you're doing really well: my Fuji 6900S with the close up lenses
cost about 1200$ CDN in 2001. AFAICS, you're miles ahead with this
camera for dental applications. If you can plug it directly into a TV to
show your patients, that would be fantastic.

> Outdoors, the 5-MP capacity allows for substantial cropping on the
> computer without visible loss of picture clarity. The lens seems to be
> nice and sharp.
>
> I'm sure other, more expensive models would do as well.  ;-)

And you'd be more heart broken when you dropped them!

> By the way, I upload these JPEGs with the EXIF info still attached. If
> you download the picture to your computer, many image-viewing programs
> (like Irfanview) will allow you to see the EXIF info. That will tell
> you the date, the model camera, the exposure, and all sorts of
> shutterbug information, on each and every photo.

I'm gonna try that with ImageViewer on the Mac.

> And to think that the electronic revolution is just starting . . .

Well, you are skimming the best buys off the top of the revolution in a
most intelligent way. Keep looking at the maker of your cheap I/O
camera. They are coming out with some really good compromise apparatus.

> - dentaldoc

Thanks, Bill!
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Bill - 14 Aug 2005 22:45 GMT
Bill had written:
> Where this model shines is in its ability to take very close-up
> pictures without flash:

> http://tinypic.com/aexp1g.jpg

"That is AMAZING.... such detail. And of course, have to ask: is that a

real (discontinued) coin?"

Yep! I got it on eBay:

http://tinypic.com/ak8x7s.jpg

The 2-cent coin was never very popular so it was discontinued after a
few years in the 1800s. (They even made a 3-cent coin back then, but it
met the same fate.)

And I gotta tell you --- in order to look good, a lot of photographers
like me will take five or six shots of a subject, and then only show
you the best one! Just like the porcelain salesmen who send other
dentists all that junk mail promoting their veneers and so on. Do we
ever see their failed cases in full color? Naw, didn't think so.  ;-)

And altering the brightness and contrast on the computer surely helps
my pics, too.

"Well you're doing really well: my Fuji 6900S with the close up lenses
cost about 1200$ CDN in 2001. AFAICS, you're miles ahead with this
camera for dental applications. If you can plug it directly into a TV
to
show your patients, that would be fantastic."

I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
applications.

There is indeed a means to plug many digital cameras into a TV. But in
my oh-so-humble opinion, your use of your battery-powered intraoral
camera seems more immediate and effective with patients. As my digital
camera is not a dental model, I have to take several pictures and then
crop and brighten them on the computer to get shots good enough to
print. Your intraoral setup lets them see things right away.

"Well, you are skimming the best buys off the top of the revolution in
a
most intelligent way. Keep looking at the maker of your cheap I/O
camera. They are coming out with some really good compromise
apparatus."
________

Yes, I'm amazed at the innovations of the whole RF Lab company. It
seems every year they have something newer and better. And -- they're
the only company that even comes close to my price range.

Best Regards,
dentaldoc
kureforcrohns@sbcglobal.net - 15 Aug 2005 00:21 GMT
> "That is AMAZING.... such detail. And of course, have to ask: is that a
>
> real (discontinued) coin?"
>
> Yep! I got it on eBay:

As a matter of information, if you see a five cent liberty nickel dated l913
on E-Bay, be sure to bid.
Liberty nickels were discontinued in l912 for Jefferson nickels, but somehow
5
were minted in l913.      Four have been accounted for, but the fifth is
still out there somewhere.   Starting bid might be 1 million, but be certain
it is not a counterfeit.
Gail   (who is looking for it)
Bill - 15 Aug 2005 19:44 GMT
Gail wrote:

As a matter of information, if you see a five cent liberty nickel dated
l913
on E-Bay, be sure to bid.
Liberty nickels were discontinued in l912 for Jefferson nickels, but
somehow
5
were minted in l913.      Four have been accounted for, but the fifth
is
still out there somewhere.   Starting bid might be 1 million, but be
certain
it is not a counterfeit.
Gail   (who is looking for it)

__________________

I've been looking for it too -- since the late fifties! Haven't found
it yet.

I'm also keeping my eyes open for a 1943 cent that's NOT made of
steel..;-)

- dentaldoc
StovePipe - 15 Aug 2005 02:11 GMT
> I gotta tell you --- in order to look good, a lot of photographers
> like me will take five or six shots of a subject, and then only show
> you the best one! Just like the porcelain salesmen who send other
> dentists all that junk mail promoting their veneers and so on. Do we
> ever see their failed cases in full color? Naw, didn't think so.  ;-)

True....
> And altering the brightness and contrast on the computer surely helps
> my pics, too.
[snip]
> I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
> applications.

Oh, I don't know... it was not designed for that; it was designed to be
versatile, that's all.

> There is indeed a means to plug many digital cameras into a TV. But in
> my oh-so-humble opinion, your use of your battery-powered intraoral
> camera seems more immediate and effective with patients. As my digital
> camera is not a dental model, I have to take several pictures and then
> crop and brighten them on the computer to get shots good enough to
> print. Your intraoral setup lets them see things right away.

True, but if you want to keep the images, you have to jump through a few
hoops.

[snip]

> Yes, I'm amazed at the innovations of the whole RF Lab company. It
> seems every year they have something newer and better. And -- they're
> the only company that even comes close to my price range.

You hit it right on the head again: PRICE RANGE. They've seemed to take
a look at the market and say: we'll develop for those who simply can't
or won't jump on the traditional bandwagons.

> Best Regards,
> dentaldoc

Thanks, Bill
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 15 Aug 2005 19:26 GMT
>> I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
>> applications.
>
>Oh, I don't know... it was not designed for that; it was designed to be
>versatile, that's all.

Well Fuji 9 is definitely suitable for dental applications.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 16 Aug 2005 04:25 GMT
> >> I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
> >> applications.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Yes, but Fiji 9 won't take pictures. Similarly my Fuji 6900S with three
close up lenses is a real b--ch to cram into an Occ of a lower second
molar.

SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 16 Aug 2005 15:22 GMT
>> >> I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
>> >> applications.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>SP

Is Fiji 9 near the bikini islands ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 17 Aug 2005 04:38 GMT
> >> >> I'm sure that your Fuji is much more appropriate for dental
> >> >> applications.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Well, I know that Fiji 6900S is where allot of porn films are made...
They still don't allow picture taking on Fiji 9. They're all converted
to Jedi Knight-ism.

SP
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 15 Aug 2005 17:45 GMT
>> http://tinypic.com/aexp1g.jpg
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It's been years since I was there, but I believe in Jamaica, they still
>have a 2 cent coin.

The Bahamas has a $3 bill, no kidding.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 15 Aug 2005 18:14 GMT
> >> http://tinypic.com/aexp1g.jpg
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Take out the G'RBAGE
> wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com

Well, have to figure they need it.
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Vaughn - 15 Aug 2005 22:29 GMT
>> The Bahamas has a $3 bill, no kidding.

    I have been to the Bahamas exactly twice, and the second time was
accidental.  Don't know what they charge now, but the airport used to charge you
a $5.00 "Port Tax" as you left the country.  That was the only bargain I ever
found in the Bahamas.  We would have paid much more for the privilege of
leaving.
W_B - 15 Aug 2005 22:59 GMT
>>> The Bahamas has a $3 bill, no kidding.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>found in the Bahamas.  We would have paid much more for the privilege of
>leaving.

No doubt.

We only went once and almost became stranded at the airport
because it was the start of Junkanoo (sp?)
We were delayed over 3 hours.

There was a british jet on the tarmac that had been loaded and
ready to go for 6+ hours. (so it was said, the jet was there)

Sometimes they take the "no problem, mon" thingy a little too far.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 16 Aug 2005 04:25 GMT
> No doubt.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sometimes they take the "no problem, mon" thingy a little too far.
> --
Question for yourself and Vaughn. Apart from the airport situation, what
else did you find objectionable?

Thanks
SP

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Vaughn - 16 Aug 2005 11:29 GMT
> Question for yourself and Vaughn. Apart from the airport situation, what
> else did you find objectionable?

     Because (first of all) there is little there that I want.  Once I have
driven around and seen the scenery (which is very nice), I am pretty much done.
I understand that this is a personal thing that may not apply to others, I just
have little interest in fishing, gambling, or baking on a beach.

   The whole place seems to be set up specifically to separate the white guy
from his money.  We found prices to be outlandish for anything that was not
negotiated in advance, particularly food.  In spite of the high prices, trying
to do buisness is a real experience.  Nothing is to be taken for granted,
especially anything that has a time attached, like opening hours for a business.

    I will give you a specific incident that shows the attitude of the locals
to outsiders.  As I said earlier, there was (in the 70's) a $5.00 "port tax" as
you left.  There were two young ladies ahead of us in line.  The clerk told them
"10 dollars please".  They EACH handed the man $10.00 which he accepted without
a blink.  I and my wife were next in line; he said "10 dollars please" and I
handed him $10.00 bor the both of us, he accepted without a blink.  That guy
probably based his entire career on clipping unknowing tourists and likely hated
all of us.

    They can keep the place.

    You know a lot more than us about living in the islands and I (for one)
would appreciate hearing what you think of life there.

Vaughn

> Thanks
> SP
StovePipe - 17 Aug 2005 04:38 GMT
> > Question for yourself and Vaughn. Apart from the airport situation, what
> > else did you find objectionable?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> others, I just have little interest in fishing, gambling, or baking on a
> beach.

OK, there is no gambling or even high nite-life on my Dad's little
island. There is not even local television, and quite a few houses and
little shacks have sattlight dishes. I would mention it, but my Dad is
pretty tense about this internet stuff and the lack of security, so I
won't mention it by name, at his request. Suffice it to say it is quite
far South, and it has a really good breeze, so even in summer, sleeping
is not too bad (as long as we stayed down stairs). There are  not very
many big planes that land there, as it is not on the radar of the tour
agencies, and that is good, as most of the islands generate their
electricity by Diesel (sp?) petrol power. There are generating plants
spaced in different parts of the island so as to not need alot of high
tension wires. (Very loud, very smoky, often quite poorly placed). The
island is getting dirtier, and IMO, the quality of accomodation is going
down. Some of my fondest memories as a youth are running around that
island on foot and hitchhiking, all from the immense guesthouse we
stayed in on a semi-permanent basis. I saw it when we went back this
year and I was heart-broken: in ruins, all the trees and immense garden
torn away to put up walls for the hotel next door. We used to look for
lizards and spiders in that garden. Access to the beach that was within
walking distance has been blocked. I honestly wish I hadn't gone to see
it.

There are still beaches that are relatively untouched, and they make for
good snorkeling fare for the kids. I bought them masks and snorkels, and
if I'd had the $$$, I'd have bought them fins for going to and coming
back from the reefs, as the undertow out there is quite strong. This is
because of the confluence of two different currents. Even so, the kids
fared well. I was so out of shape that they were zooming ahead of me
wherever we went in the water: quite unnerving for me, as if they got
into trouble, I wouldn't have been close. I have to accept that it is
THEM who will aid ME if anything happens, as they can already run rings
around me in the water at eight and ten years of age. I was lucky in
that I found a Dacor mask with a broken fastening on one side of the
mask and it worked fine for me with an elastic around my head. (Not
pretty, no snorkel, Jacques Cousteau I was _not_.) It was a lucky break,
and I say a small octopus slide out of one side of a rock and in the
other side. The kids missed it: one of those things where you had to be
looking in the right direction at the right time already.

There _is_ fishing, but we prefered to go see the big fish in the
national aquarium. That is a blast at feeding time. They feed them
pieces of squid. I got some pictures: the little fish and the little
sting rays tore it apart; the nurse sharks and the barracuda didn't even
move toward it. Strange. Maybe they don't feed every day, or maybe their
food has to be living to be of intrest to them. I don't know.

There is also some scuba diving, but I didn't have the $$$. I used to
dive when we were younger.

You have to understand we were in my Dad's little place on the island,
which was designed for two to four, and we were six: us four and my Mom
and Dad. We cooked for ourselves and we made do with what was available.
My Dad always used his Coleman stove, as it was much cheaper than the
stove. I brought six packages of whole wheat spagetti and numerous Knorr
soups and dried veggies and other dry foods. We ate often in the local
fast food (chicken, mostly, as beef comes from New Zealand and is $$$).
I would not order anything, and would only eat the kids' leftovers. That
was quite enough. Sadly, the fast food containers are ending up on the
beaches and in the water. I picked up quite a few in the water and on
the beach. In this way, becoming once more a part-time garbage
collector, as in my University days, I found a beat up but servicible
underwater mask. We did our laundry at the local laundromat, and there
as well, the people were surprised to see a white tourist there, and had
no end of questions and advice.

Because we had no car, and went on foot to the beach each day (a couple
of Km away, and enduring barking dogs in their compounds all along the
route) we didn't see too much of the island. We took the public busses
to the local stadium for different activities, and we took the bus tour
of the island as well (made by the public bus company). It is quite
mountainous, and the farm land is all quite far from the 'city' but it
is nothing like Jamaica, and not nearly as rich in arable land.

We had to take showers down at the beach, as that was the only place
that had good running water. We had running water, of course, but not
enough pressure for a good shower. At the beach, the shower water wasn't
heated, but it was warm enough anyway. Most places like my Dad's have
solar heating tanks on the roof, and that's it for hot water.

>     The whole place seems to be set up specifically to separate the white
> guy from his money.  We found prices to be outlandish for anything that
> was not negotiated in advance, particularly food.  In spite of the high
> prices, trying to do buisness is a real experience.  Nothing is to be
> taken for granted, especially anything that has a time attached, like
> opening hours for a business.

Here, the place has its tourist attractions as well, but if you want to,
you could eat at the supermarket deli like we did often. The local
constuction workers always had those styrofoam boxes at lunchtime, and I
asked them were they got them. That's how we found out there was a local
'supermarket' with the steamtables. There are quite a few taxidrivers
who will give you a tour or organize an activity for you that has more
of a local flavor. Speaking of locals, they are quite friendly for the
most part. We were constantly being asked where we were going and
whether we knew the way to get there. We took the bus to the aquarium
mentioned above and it seems we got on the wrong bus. I asked the driver
to give us a shout when we were nearing the aquarium. We needed this,
you see, as the busses are so jam packed that you can't see where you
are going at all. Even so, nobody smells. They are an immensely proud
and cleanly  and well dressed and groomed people, even if they live in
little houses with only one or two lights (often over the kitchen table
where the kids do their homework. Speaking of which, the literacy rate
is quite high).

Anyway, everybody, including the driver, told us that this bus didn't
really go anywhere near the aquarium, but it was starting to rain
(always a short-lived but torrential flood, like in Jamaica), so hurry
up and get on, and we'll think of something. So, every time someone got
on the bus I heard "masdmfasdlfj go to sdfmdlfkfj National Aquarium
sdlfdfsferr ???", so I knew he was asking the folks if they knew any way
to get us there. Finally, after we were quite a ways inland and quite
high up in the mountains, _way_ past the airport, he said, "Follow Mr.
Banks, here, and he'll show you where to go." They pushed us forward
toward the exit. If they didn't, we'd still be jammed in there.

Everybody waved us goodbye, and Walter Banks (at least 6ft 5in) trekked
us through at least 2 km of mountain roads (no sidewalks) to get to
another bus that went to the Aquarium. He waved to everybody he passed
and encouraged us to do the same. I guess country folk are the same all
over the world. I tried to give him 5$ local to compensate him (I know
he went out of his way) but he politely refused. I grabbed his hand and
forced it in. "Thanks, Mr. Banks, hope I can return the favor some
time."
"You Canadian, right"
"Yes"
"Pffft... How can you live there? I picked tobacco near Hamilton (You
know Hamilton?) for two seasons. That was enough of Canada for me."
"Well, I guess it depends on what you're used to.."
"Now go get the Bus over yonder... Tell 'im not to charge you more than
1.25$ per person"

So, we got on that bus, went about 2 km, and he then pulled off into a
field under a tree, turned off the motor, and left the bus.... After
about 10 minutes (or so, I didn't have a watch) I asked the lady behind
me if this was normal. She didn't seem to know how to answer this
question, so I let it go. A few minutes later, I asked the meter maid
(who handled the fares) and she just made like she didn't hear me. When
he came back, I asked the driver about it, and had to ask him three
times to repeat the reply:

"We work on a per time basis, Sir."

OK, so he didn't want to be early. We just had to be patient. So, after
boomeranging inland over twice the distance necessary, walking in the
(by then) hot sun, we finally found ourselves at the National Aquarium,
just in time for lunch. Only, the little restaurant was closed, as the
attendant was busy cleaning up a spill of animal food down the street a
bit. So, we started our tour, munching on the granola and oatmeal bars I
packed into my backpack, and drank our bottles of tap water and went in
for lunch after the feeding spectacle in the early afternoon. The kids
ordered chicken (what else?) nuggets that were baked and not fried,
mashed potatoes and apple pie. I ordered nothing. I finished the kids'
food again and we re-did the tour of the various aquarium buildings
backwards, as there was a group of day-care kids coming in and already
were terrorizing the turtles and the sting rays. These last are like
puppy dogs: they come into a very shallow area of the pond when the
attendant calls them, get fed from the hand, and get patted on the back
before taking off into the circular pond area again, where they go
'round and 'round; I remember when I was taking diving lessons when
younger, they would come and sit on your head. They wanted the bubbles
coming out of your regulator and they passed them through their gills.
Very gentle and friendly creatures, who don't deserve the name 'sting
ray'. I've never heard of anybody getting stung, even when they stepped
on one resting in the underwater sand.

Good thing, we did the tour backwards, as the octopus (about 1.5 feet
long, I think; quite small, at any rate) was just coming back out from
under its rock. It really did react to loud sounds and sudden movements,
as we found out. So I admonished the kids to whisper, and I got a short
film on the pee-fart  HP digital camera. The day-care kids must have
banged on the glass and frightened it. One big regret I had was taking a
256K card for the camera ($$$). It wasn't nearly enough, especially when
we saw that the films were better than the still pics. I regret not
seeking out the camera that Bill has. It would have been so much better,
cropped photos or no.

>      I will give you a specific incident that shows the attitude of the
> locals to outsiders.  As I said earlier, there was (in the 70's) a $5.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> accepted without a blink.  That guy probably based his entire career on
> clipping unknowing tourists and likely hated all of us.

That guy should have been reported. I cannot believe the local tourist
board would condone that sort of thing, knowing what negative criticism
it engenders.

We didn't take many taxis, but when we did, the driver told us in
advance what it would cost. There were no meters, but at least you knew
where, you stood. They invariably had a story to tell to the tourists, a
suggestion as to where to eat or what might be interesting to see, and
they gave you their card in case you needed them again. This happened
most times. There were a few duds, but I only had to argue over a price
once. "It is nighttime and this is a van, Sir, so there is a three
dollar sircharge". I objected. He wouldn't budge. I gave him the money
with and asked for change. He hesitated before giving me the last 2$,
thinking it would be his tip. I whisked it out of his fingers saying,
"you should petition the government to lift the sircharge; it's killing
your industry."

Thanks, bye.
Yeah Mon

I didn't ask for his card, and he didn't offer it.
>      They can keep the place.

If you want the confort of big hotels and the luxury of not having to
figure out what you're gonna do today, where and what you're gonna eat
and you need a nice night life, and how you're gonna get there and back,
then my Dad's island is not your cup of tea. Of course, if you're rich
and you can rent a car, that changes everything.

But, I think you can see, at _our_ stage of the game, with young kids
(for whom my goal was their experiencing a bit of the world as _I_ had
done at their age) it was great. _I_ didn't mind the inconveniences one
iota, but my wife did. She was ready to come home and 'rest' from all of
that. Have to admit, for the dude or dudette who wants to veg out and
have all the activities laid out for them, that isn't the place. If,
like me, you find getting lost on a public bus system, in the middle of
nowhere, with enough granola bars and water to tough out the whole day,
if needs be- fun and adventurous, then this little island is really OK.
Hell, we _never_ felt unsafe.

We went into town once. Cobblestones, old 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th
century buildings side by side, no real plan to it all, dirty sidewalks,
clean sidewalks, garbage on some corners, a bum asleep in front of the
pharmacy, very well dressed, handsome and pretty black people stepping
around him, ringing cellphones, sattlight radio blaring from an eatery
(not much Rasta/Reggae to be seen or heard) a real culture shock for we
who had become used to a slower daily pace by then. We asked a lady who
looked like she worked in a bank where the Farmers Exchange was. This
was the local name for the big department store in the middle of town
where all the luxury items were found, and you could buy items and
liquor duty-free and have them sent to your flight (Usually you took
them at the same time you ordered them and there was a bag around them
that was sealed).

"You wan' de Maaket?"
"If you please, Ma'am."
"I goin' dat way. You Canadian?"
"Why yes, but how did you-"
"Jus' follow, for I be late."
"Very good, Ma'am."

So she litterally cut a swath through the seemingly immovable crowd
seemingly all going the opposite way, seemingly hostile, but really
uncomplaining and sometimes smiling as we went through, and we had to
run at times to keep up with her... Why do I always seem to get these
six footer sprinters to ask directions of?...Puff Puff Puff...

"C'mon, kids, try to keep up with the lady..." Of course they were
distracted by the tail end of a parade celebrating who knows what, and
all the kids their ages were in costume.

We finally got there, and my little girl got her "gold" ankle bracelet,
and my little guy got a water Frisbee (smaller than regulation, solid
and curved on the bottom like a flying saucer would be, made to skim
over the water). We had more fun outta those two Frisbees than you would
believe (they came in pairs) and they made us more friends than anybody
could ask for.
>      You know a lot more than us about living in the islands and I (for
> one) would appreciate hearing what you think of life there.

Wherever we went, the locals would hear my wife speaking Quebecois
French, me speaking English, and the kids answering me in their mother's
tongue, and they would stop and listen. Often, on the bus, as soon as
the kids opened their mouths, the general cacaphony would stop so as to
hear them talk. Many would ask what we were speaking, and they would
laugh when I told them I was speaking English. Some of the kids had fun
trying to guess what language they were speaking. Some asked how to say
"hello" in French.

> Vaughn
>  
As far as business goes, the hours are posted on the outsides of all
shops and commercial enterprises, and I think they are mostly respected.
There must be quite a bit of business, as the local yellow pages is
quite thick. I would go there to practice Dentistry in a minute, if I
were single without kids. As it is, I don't think I'd make much money
(not that I'm making any here but still...).

I realize, my dear Vaughn, that I haven't even come close to answering
your question in the true Michelin Tourist Guide fashion. If you have
any specific questions, I'll try to come down out of the clouds.

Thanks
SP

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

--
Finally: take out the TRASHH

Vaughn - 17 Aug 2005 11:28 GMT
> I realize, my dear Vaughn, that I haven't even come close to answering
> your question in the true Michelin Tourist Guide fashion. If you have
> any specific questions, I'll try to come down out of the clouds.

    No, you answered it very well.  Thank you much for taking the time.  I
suspect that I could come to love the islands, but one has to take time to get
to know the place; the real place, not the place that is part of the tourist
economy.  I have little use of all-inclusive resorts, but the areas of the
islands that I have seen so far---the hostile part where everything is rigged
against the tourist---is not fun.  We are scheduled for our second cruise late
this summer and in some ports we may not even got off the ship.

Thanks
Vaughn
StovePipe - 17 Aug 2005 15:51 GMT
>      No, you answered it very well.  Thank you much for taking the time.  I
> suspect that I could come to love the islands, but one has to take time to get
> to know the place; the real place, not the place that is part of the tourist
> economy.  

See, that's it: we never saw the islands from the strictly tourist point
of view. We were strictly tourists in central and south Florida, of
course, as we have no pied a terre there, but Florida people were always
decent, in my experience. Most we would meet were not from there. That
makes for a more sympathetic clan of clowns.

>I have little use of all-inclusive resorts, but the areas of the
> islands that I have seen so far---the hostile part where everything is rigged
> against the tourist---is not fun.  We are scheduled for our second cruise late
> this summer and in some ports we may not even got off the ship.

Try lugging a small back pack with stuff to eat/drink. If you don't like
the local fare, you can always pull it out. If they are gong to soak you
for the sites of interest, well, there are some of those on my Dad's
island as well, as we simply couldn't afford them. As far as avoiding
the tourist traps goes, there may be some tourist groups on UseNet that
could help. You could try downloading the full list of groups available
on your server and searching for tourist, or Google Groups'ing on the
specific port names where you will drop anchor.

The best would be to have friends who are travel agents or work in the
airlines.

Cheers
SP

> Thanks
> Vaughn

Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Bill - 18 Aug 2005 06:47 GMT
Wow, what an adventure! I hope the kids were able to take it all in. It
must have been fascinating for them to see other people who were
interested in their ability to speak Quebecois French! Probably that
wasn't a frequent occurrence on a bus for locals on the island.

Between the buses, the hikes, and the aquarium it sounds like a ball.
And I love granola bars too.

- dentaldoc
StovePipe - 27 Aug 2005 07:17 GMT
> Wow, what an adventure! I hope the kids were able to take it all in. It
> must have been fascinating for them to see other people who were
> interested in their ability to speak Quebecois French! Probably that
> wasn't a frequent occurrence on a bus for locals on the island.

They did love it, yes. And at eight and ten, they will (hopefully)
remember some of it.

> Between the buses, the hikes, and the aquarium it sounds like a ball.
> And I love granola bars too.

Well.... you'd have gotten pretty tired of them by the end of the
stay...

> - dentaldoc

Cheers
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

Sue - 27 Aug 2005 13:48 GMT
This is a great thread.  Thank you.  Very enjoyable reading! -Su

--
Su
Amatus Cremona - 18 Aug 2005 13:04 GMT
> OK, there is no gambling or even high nite-life on my Dad's little
> island. There is not even local television, and quite a few houses and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is not too bad (as long as we stayed down stairs). There are  not very
> many big planes that land there, as it is not on the radar of the tour

Nice story, thanks.

Signature

/

Amatus

/

>
>> > Question for yourself and Vaughn. Apart from the airport situation,
[quoted text clipped - 297 lines]
> Thanks
> SP
W_B - 16 Aug 2005 15:27 GMT
>> No doubt.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

How about $6.50 for a bad burger, bag-o-chips, and a quarter pickle.
And that was in the late 80's.

Food is expensive there.

I would go back but go to an 'all inclusive' resort.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 17 Aug 2005 04:38 GMT
> >> --
> >Question for yourself and Vaughn. Apart from the airport situation, what
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I would go back but go to an 'all inclusive' resort.
> --

'K... You have to realize that all food exept sea food and chicken is
expensive down there as it all is imported. Of course that should incite
them to do a better than average job, so I can see your point. When I
was young, we _never_ went down South without a bag full of snacks and
food that could be eaten out of the package, but I know that mode of
tourism is not for everybody. I don't mind it, neither did the kids, but
my wife hates it.

I think the idea of an all inclusive can be good, as can house swapping
or staying is guest houses, if they exist where you're going.

Thanks

SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

StovePipe - 16 Aug 2005 04:25 GMT
> >> The Bahamas has a $3 bill, no kidding.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bargain I ever found in the Bahamas.  We would have paid much more for the
> privilege of leaving.

Question for yourself and W_B: what is so bad about the Bahamas? I've
never been, but you are making the place sound really terrible.

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

W_B - 16 Aug 2005 15:25 GMT
>> >> The Bahamas has a $3 bill, no kidding.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Thanks
>SP

The place is beautiful, the people are on 'island time'.
"No problem, mon".

There is a good vanilla flavored liquor called Nassau Royale
that is quite interesting.

I would go back, but stay somewhere else.
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Vaughn Simon - 16 Aug 2005 18:16 GMT
> There is a good vanilla flavored liquor called Nassau Royale
> that is quite interesting.

    You can buy that stuff here in Florida, but apparently not in all of
the rest of the US.  I have to ship some to my daughter in CA occasionally.

Vaughn

    Will poofread for food.
W_B - 16 Aug 2005 19:41 GMT
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:25:24 -0400, stove99pipeTRA@SHHyahoo.ca (StovePipe)
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>     You can buy that stuff here in Florida, but apparently not in all of
>the rest of the US.  I have to ship some to my daughter in CA occasionally.

Have found it in other states.

>Vaughn
>
>     Will poofread for food.

You gonna starve to death man... <G>
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
Joel344 - 17 Aug 2005 02:13 GMT
Poofread ........

That's about the "Poof the Magic Dragon" song, right?

Joel

--
Joel34
Vaughn - 17 Aug 2005 02:32 GMT
> That's about the "Poof the Magic Dragon" song, right?

    Let me get this straight...  You mean the one who lived by the sea?
W_B - 17 Aug 2005 15:13 GMT
>> That's about the "Poof the Magic Dragon" song, right?
>
>     Let me get this straight...  You mean the one who lived by the sea?

The very same one who frolicked in the autumn mist in a land called honah lee ?
--

W_B
Take out the G'RBAGE
wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com
StovePipe - 17 Aug 2005 04:38 GMT
> The place is beautiful, the people are on 'island time'.
> "No problem, mon".
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I would go back, but stay somewhere else.
> --

'K, got it.

Thanks
SP
Signature

Finally: take out the TRASHH

 
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