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Medical Forum / General / Dentistry / August 2005Rod Kurthy's Deep Bleaching Technique
Rod Kurthy wrote about his deep bleaching technique. Anyone see Rod's DVD? Joel ** ROD Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 12 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by ambergambler I think it's an extremely interesting development in the case o tetracycline staining - a lot more conservative (and obviously cheaper) than the alternatives. Rod, if you're still around - roughl in what percentage of cases of tetracycline staining does the dee bleaching technique prove successful? ROD REPLIES, Well, of course, since there are so many now using the technique, can't speak for other than what I have seen in my own practice, wha I've seen on DentalTown, the calls I've received, and emails Is there a way to post pics here? As you know, color is not always the only problem regardin tetracycline stained teeth. Sometimes the enamel is significantl thinner, especially in the cervicals, and more so in the lower anterio cervicals. So it depends on what your definition of successful is. The funny thin is that I always warn docs NOT to tackle a tetracycline case as thei first case. I suggest they get a few more typical cases under thei belts first. But do they listen to me????? Noooooooo. LOL!! Any of yo who follow this on DentalTown at all have seen at least a dozen Townie post that they're starting their first Deep Bleaching case, and tha even though they know that I've said NOT to start on a TCN case they're doing it anyway. And they always basically say they're nervou about it. Most of them have come back with photos and incredible stories. I don' remember one who has said it was a failure. Some are more dramatic tha others, but all that I can remember have said that they patients wer totally blown away. I just got an email about five days ago from a dentist who just did hi first TCN case and said that he had some disappointment. He said tha the patient was absolutely ecstatic with the results, but that h didn't think that the results looked as good as the ones he's see posted by dentists on DentalTown. I asked if he'd read my book, and h said he had. But when I started asking him questions about what he did he'd not followed many of the recommendations. He only had the patien bleach at home for 2 weeks. TCN I recommend a minimum of three weeks He did not use the products I recommend, and this will have the mos effect on a TCN case (relates to a longer time of oxygen release). So he basically said he needed to read the book again. He said tha even though the patient was extremely happy, that he wanted to do eve better, so he's gonna start the case all over again. I asked him t forward me pics, but he said he's not good at getting pics int emails. So yes, so far, that I know of at least, the results have been reall amazing with tetracycline. Oh, I just remembered one other -- I did have one Townie post that h was upset with the results he'd achieved with a TCN case. He went o and on how the cervical color was still dark, etc. He did happen t mention that the patient, however, was very happy. I urged him to pos the before and after pics, and I personally thought the results wer great. You couldn't even see the cervicals when the patient smiled What a HUGE difference. This patient had extremely thin enamel in the lower anterior cervica area. Anyway, a number of posters came on and said that they'd call th results a resounding success, given what the patient started out with This Townie did sorta change his mind and say 'yeah, the patient DOE look much, much better, but I had hoped that there wouldn't be any mor discoloration at all". So point is that this technique achieves what never could be achieve in this amount of time before, but you'll still usually see some bit o cervical discoloration. Bottom line is that it's really not noticable t the patients, and usually not noticable in their typical smile. Obviously I love being able to change the appearance of patients smiles, but there's just something incredible about being able to do this change on someone who genuinely had a smile that was tetracycline stained. Each one of these patients will usually end up telling me their very personal story of how their Snickers Bar smile affected them during their lifetime. Very, very emotional. Rod  SignatureJoel344 nice to see you back I've seen his advertising DVD not impressed I've also seen his results and the photos he takes are not consistant so it ia hard to tell what the results are. I know he cuts the trays a certain way to maintain the bleach next to the tooth. BTW I was etching enamel for bleaching way before ROD came up with his system. After walking around for a few months with etched enamel I had to ask a colleague to polish the roughness away. Rod just covers this up with resin so I do nor understand how that enamel ever becomes smooth on its own. from the dvd you cold tell that he is just a huge show off and only interested in selling his "BOOK", etc.... Hey Alex, you may have just earned a Sunday afternoon irate and rude telephone call from RK. He is another reason to stay away from DT. Can you spell salesman? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. .................................................... ...................... > nice to see you back > I've seen his advertising DVD not impressed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from the dvd you cold tell that he is just a huge show off and only > interested in selling his "BOOK", etc.... That's a funny comment ........ and an "in" joke. Somehow Rod Kurthy and I get along okay. I still do not know why either. I generally agre with Steve, but when it comes to Rod, I keep looking the other way! (I am trying to expand that philosophy elsewhere too). Joe -- Joel34 I do not take phone calls from salespeople. I've trained my staff to say "Dr Vasserman is a very busy man his time is precious". When I see a salesman coming such as the phone recruits asking to switch service, I walk out and sit in the waiting room as if I was a patient. My staff does not give me away. It's very funny. I've had sales people sit an hour before they gave up. > That's a funny comment ........ and an "in" joke. Somehow Rod Kurthy > and I get along okay. I still do not know why either. I generally agree [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 > View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2616 How about when he calls your emergency pager number on Sunday afternoon to bitch at you? You return the call thinking it is one of your patients traveling out the immediate area, and find yourself talking to RK, who is bitching because you may have cost him a sale by saying something on SMD 4 months earlier. If you are interested, it was for referring to him as a "salesman from DT". Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >I do not take phone calls from salespeople. > I've trained my staff to say "Dr Vasserman is a very busy man his time [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 >> View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2616 Steve, that's funny. There are MANY salemen from DT. Joe -- Joel34 Most of what pretends to be discussion over at DT is really just an effort to sell stuff. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > > Steve, that's funny. There are MANY salemen from DT. > > Joel Absolutely correct! Joe -- Joel34 Hmmm....I wonder why I'm not on that list. ;-) Fawks > Absolutely correct! > > Joel > How about when he calls your emergency pager number on Sunday afternoon to > bitch at you? You return the call thinking it is one of your patients > traveling out the immediate area, and find yourself talking to RK, who is > bitching because you may have cost him a sale by saying something on SMD 4 > months earlier. If you are interested, it was for referring to him as a > "salesman from DT". I'll hang-up. Then send his phone number to a telemarketer. > -- > ~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >> Joel344's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=12 > >> View this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2616 Rod is like the USED car salesman in Middle America. HOLY MOLY. The Music Man all over again. Be sure you buy his books now. I am not sure why, but I kind of like Rod. I see two different Rods .... one the dentist ..... and the other the salesman! And as salesman he is so funny. His DVD is hilarious! And as always, there are kernels and nuggets in there. I admire his bravado! I mean you can shout to his face how he is something else and it never phases him. If anything it energizes him. Its a POSITIVE approach to something that can be a little tawdry. Joel SignatureJoel344 I missed his DVD but I get all of the other dental crap but others complained about not getting it. He doesn't care for me much and after threatening to sue me for exercising my first amendment rights of free speech I think he is all bluster. His techniques and his books are nothing stupendous but to the young and unsophisticated crowd at Dental Town it must look good. Fools that they may be to swallow his hyper-exaggerated salesmanship - HOLY MOLY....YOU GOTTA READ THIS!!!! Flap How, when and why did he threaten to sue you? What did you say? Some months ago. About the time he was sending out the DVD and he was getting involved with some new venture - which he now has apparently backed away from. He took exception to a post I made on my other blog site and told me to take it down and he was forwarding this matter to his attorney. I essentially told him to pound sand. He was wrong on the law and his attorney probably told him so. But, if they want to sue I am sure my daughters would love to take him for 100K attorneys fees after his sorry asrse loses. But, it is BS like this that intimidates dentists and manufacturers off of Dental Town. I thought this stuff stopped after school... Yeah, that is what I thought too. Nobody likes a bully - like Rod Kurthy! Joel, didn't Steve or somebody at SMD have a problem with Kurthy? > Nobody likes a bully - like Rod Kurthy! To me, it's not about Rod's personality, but about whether or not the deep bleaching technique works in cases where bleaching doesn't usually work (e. g. tetracycline staining), as a more conservative treatment option.... so what's the general take on this one? Has anyone around here actually tried it and if so, what's the verdict? How do you measure success in these cases? Photos published on the internet? Hardly. There have been no controlled studies that have been published using a control versus "deep bleaching" (at least that I have seen). In fact, the term "deep bleaching" is hard to define since different materials are used and Rod has not subjected his protocol to any controlled peer reviewed studies. Major issues in bleaching cases are always sensitivity and color relapse. Anecdotal conversations I have had with my colleagues and my clinical experience paint an uncertain to a sometimes good prognosis for deep tetracycline staining and any long lasting bleaching (whitening). But, the patient must continually refresh the result when there is relapse. And sensitivity.... well that is a problem and another post. Flap And in cases, I head of practitioners prescribing steroids for the severe pain that follows. Where there's pain, there's inflammation. Where there's inflammation, there's some sort of destruction going on. I can't see using phosphoric acid all over the front surfaces of teeth ....... Joe -- Joel34 Off label use? spotted on http://members5.boardhost.com/CosmeticDental/ : "can anyone give me some advice please.. my teeth are very discolored due to antibiotics as a child.. my dentist tells me that there was a certain antibiotic that caused this and i'd obviously had it a few tims so my permanent teeth are very discoloured.. what are my options? everthing seems so expensive but the problems always weighed me down, i never smile in a photo and am so very self consious its getting worse as i get older and my confidance is so low... please help " So what's the answer? Mortgage your home and get a ton of veneers? If there's a better solution, it may be worth a try in my book... but the mainstream opinion seems to be that deep bleaching is likely to result in too much sensitivity and requires too much maintenance to make it worthwhile? So - back to the original question - does deep bleaching work - and are there a lot more sensitivity issues involved than with ordinary bleaching? Depends upon your case. There is sensitivity involved with bleaching. Can be painful too, depending upon the technique used. What have other dentists told you? Flap http://flapsblog.com I didn't pay any close attention to the phosphoric acid component (in fact, I missed it... then again, I'm only marginally interested in cosmetic dentistry)... The truth be told, I'm sick and tired of cosmetic dentistry. It's unbelievably boring, unless done for good reasons (err, OK, it's profitable ;-) - I rest my case). (BTW, did anyone else notice the death of the minimum age for cosmetic dentistry thread on DT - the "eerie silence" one about 8 veneers for a 15-year old?) What's DT? Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... >I didn't pay any close attention to the phosphoric acid component (in > fact, I missed it... then again, I'm only marginally interested in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > death of the minimum age for cosmetic dentistry thread on DT - the > "eerie silence" one about 8 veneers for a 15-year old?) >What's DT? Delirium Tremens -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com aptly described Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > >>What's DT? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Take out the G'RBAGE > wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Ok, Joel Here is the "deep bleaching technique" that Flap obtained from the IDF and ADA sites. I posted it at my old blog site http://flapsblog.blogspot.com/2005/01/deep-bleaching-protocol.html Deep Bleaching Protocol There has been a great deal of discussion regarding "DEEP BLEACHING". Here is the protocol: A Protocol for Deep Bleaching: 1. Appt 1 - make trays (but with VERY specific instructions that do NOT allow leakage of whitening gel) 2. Appt 2 - in-office whitening (50% of manufacturers' recommended time) - delivery of trays 3. Patient wears trays for 14 nights straight 4. Patient uses whitening toothpaste 5. Appt 3 - Full in-office whitening after etching each tooth for 3 secs - Sealing of enamel - Pain RX for 24 hr zingers that will drive them to their knees Now, you be the judge on whether this is worth charging the patient twice as much and perhaps damage pulp vitality and/or other restorations. Most dentists charge $1,100 - $1,500 for this procedure. Now, the problem with Rod is that he keeps modifying the technique on Dental Town and there are pages and pages of threads about the changes of materials, etc. I imagine this is malpractice. There is no "sealing" of enamel procedures in dentistry. RE: 5. Appt 3 - Full in-office whitening after etching each tooth for 3 secs - Sealing of enamel - Pain RX for 24 hr zingers that will drive them to their knees -- Joel34 Well, I wouldn't have it done to my teeth. Regular tray bleaching at home is enough sensitivity for me after a few days. My vanity for white teeth does not make me a glutton for punishment. Flap http://flapsblog.com > Well, I wouldn't have it done to my teeth. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com Does not anybody make a trough at the gingival margin on the models before sucking down the tray??? It makes a knurl all around the tray to keep the stuff in. We STILL do this and we DON'T have any of these break-back pain cases. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH I use a Drufomat high heat and high pressure laminating machine to make the trays or have the labs do it for me. Good adaptation and judicious trimming seems to work for me. Flap http://flapsblog.com > I use a Drufomat high heat and high pressure laminating machine to make > the trays or have the labs do it for me. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com 'K... thanks for the info. All I know is that we make pockets on the model teeth using lab flowable composite and we make the seal by troughing the gingival silhouette on the model and we don't get much sensitivity at all. Maybe we're just lucky. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Not lucky at all,,,,, you just happen to know how to do it right. Signature--------------============-------------========= Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan USA ................................................................. This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. /////////////////////// >> I use a Drufomat high heat and high pressure laminating machine to make >> the trays or have the labs do it for me. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks > SP EXACTLY ! ! ! ! Signature--------------============-------------========= Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan USA ................................................................. This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. /////////////////////// >> Well, I wouldn't have it done to my teeth. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > We STILL do this and we DON'T have any of these break-back pain cases. > SP > Most dentists charge $1,100 - $1,500 for this procedure. > > Now, the problem with Rod is that he keeps modifying the technique on > Dental Town and there are pages and pages of threads about the changes > of materials, etc. I'd rather try DrS's solution (albiet it can probably take months) SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Bleach with 10% in well flitted custom trays over a very long time. Sensitivity is rare at that concentration. I have had patients bring teeth from medium tetracycline stains to B-1 given enough effort. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Depends upon your case. There is sensitivity involved with bleaching. > Can be painful too, depending upon the technique used. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com Steve, I have had patients using this 10% concentration quit after a few weeks due to sensitivity. It depends upon the patient. I have seen in-office Zoom patients with zinging teeth for a week after where I had to prescribve pain medication (but no cortico-steroids). Flap http://flapsblog.com Sensitivity after bleaching is NOT due to bleaching enamel. IT is due to bleaching dentin which freshly exposed. Abfraction lesions. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com > Sensitivity after bleaching is NOT due to bleaching enamel. IT is due to > bleaching dentin which freshly exposed. Abfraction lesions. Agreed. Another thing we do is trough the enamel ABOVE an exposed dentin at the cervical. This will leave a gap of a couple of mm between the trough and the gingival margin. This way the stuff never gets there. And, you know what? The cervical enamel gets bleached just the same. It must diffuse through the enamel rods or whatnot. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >I have seen in-office Zoom patients with zinging teeth for a week after >where I had to prescribve pain medication (but no cortico-steroids). > >Flap Haven't had that in my Zoom! cases. Any sensitivity is easily treated with Discus' Relief Potassium nitrate, and NaF -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com > So what's the answer? Mortgage your home and get a ton of veneers? If > there's a better solution, it may be worth a try in my book... but the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So - back to the original question - does deep bleaching work - and are > there a lot mo If you read Dr S's blurb, it would seem that it does work when done well with nine or ten percent solution. I don't think DrS is trying to pull the wool down over anyone's eyes. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Agreed. Flap http://flapsblog.com Joel, Buy Rod's book and he will tell you etching the teeth is NOT a big deal in his technique. God knows his technique over at the White Meat other site changes from week to week. Guess it stimulates repeat buying of the books. I would dispute that. I have seen what phosphoric acid does and I understand what the chemical process is. As Shad relates, there is no accepted use for running phosphoric acid over people's teeth for cosmetic whitening. Phosphoric acid demineralizes teeth. I imagine Rod does not call it phosphoric acid, perhaps he calls it "etchant" or something! Joel SignatureJoel344 Ok, let me find you the technique as put forth by Dr. Rod Kurthy. I have it on one of my blog posts and will find the link. Flap http://flapsblog.com He is doing 2 in office procedures and 14 days of trays. I seriously wonder how patients tolerate the sensitivity. That is why Rod Kurthy is developong a technique with a different material made by a different company for which he is developing materials. But, it is all kind of cryptic since he holds no patent rights on any of this. Supposedly, this will come out in January 2006. Flap http://flapsblog.com Of course. What is the price of bleaching teeth for a prolonged period of time? PAIN and SENSITIVITY. And you don't have to buy Rod Kurthy's book to know that. I have had lots of patients decide to go from very dark to very bright tooth values. Keep the concentration at 9% or 10% for these patients, and make them wait a few weeks between dispensing more chemistry. There will be no sensitivity unless they are clenching all night long. Signature--------------============-------------========= Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan USA ................................................................. This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. /////////////////////// > Of course. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And you don't have to buy Rod Kurthy's book to know that. I do not agree. A number of my patients have reported sensitivity with only limited application of bleach material. For example, one hour or two. I do not recommend overnight wearing of trays unless it is inadverdent. There is no indication for overnight use with carbamide peroxide. The patient can do it but why? Flap http://flapsblog.com > > Nobody likes a bully - like Rod Kurthy! > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > option.... so what's the general take on this one? Has anyone around > here actually tried it and if so, what's the verdict? Never tried RK technique. We've been told that bleaching Tet stains, when it _does_ work, is a month to six weeks on well-fitting trays with quite powerful stuff (at least 11 percent). Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH Yes, and I have done it and the sensitivity will drive you mad. With stronger bleach and an in-office component....owwwie. Flap http://flapsblog.com Intact enamel will not hurt from bleaching. Early abfraction lesions will hurt badly when bleached. Signature--------------============-------------========= Stephen Mancuso, D.D.S. Troy, Michigan USA ................................................................. This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. /////////////////////// > Yes, and I have done it and the sensitivity will drive you mad. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com Dr Steve, That has NOT been my experience, nor the experience of many of my colleagues. Sensitivity is a problem with bleaching vital teeth regardless of abfraction or not. Flap http://flapsblog.com Look more closely. Unless you are using heat (like we did in the 1980's), intact enamel should not hurt. I suppose if you did it every day for 6 months straight, it might hurt, but I would suspicious. It is the Dentin which hurts. Signature~+--~+--~+--~+--~+-- Stephen [What's a Temporary?], D.D.S. Michigan, USA .................................................... This posting is intended for informational or conversational purposes only. Always seek the opinion of a licensed dental professional before acting on the advice or opinion expressed here. Only a dentist who has examined you in person can diagnose your problems and make decisions which will affect your health. ...................... > Dr Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com Thanks Steve. I have simply been swamped with work. Do you have a reference paper link regarding the biological mechanism of vital bleaching sensitivity? Flap http://flapsblog,com Gee Flap, I'm flattered that you follow me so closely. As far as my threats to Flap, yes, can't deny it. He can ethically give all the opinions he likes, but when he LIES in public, that is quite a different thing. He said on his blog (I still don't know what the heck a blog is) that the majority of dentists who've gotten my book and tried Deep Bleaching have said something to the effect that it is a fake. I challenged him to show me. I suggested that he go over to DentalTown (yeah, that childish place where so many dentists hang out) and look up the over 300 threads where Deep Bleaching is discussed. Just like here, you can't filter out unwanted comments. And believe me, is someone pays for my book and doesn't like the results, DentalTown would be a good place to ***** about it. Ever see anyone do this? Hundreds and hundreds of dentists have made thousands of comments, and many have shown their own photos. So where does Flap get off saying something that is not the case -- NOT simply an opinion, but a false statement. Yeah, I don't mind saying that it irked me big time. And yes, I did submit it to my attorney. He said that I just needed to ignore it, and that though it was an improper statement, the hassle of doing something about it would not be worth it. You guys seem to think that it irked me simply because it might affect sales. Gimme a break. You really think that this thing actually would have any real negative effect? It's the principle of the thing. Now, as far as Alex's claim that my photos don't show what they need to, why not take a look at the thread he's talking about. He made a number of statements he just couldn't back up. We kept asking him to show us examples of what HE was bragging about -- and the best he could do was totally shot down -- because here he was complaining about others and how they didn't have the proper shade guides in the photos, etc., and he actually showed us the most ridiculous photos with ridiculous shade guides. Point is that some docs where excited about some results they'd had, and put up some photos. They talked about how excited the patients and staffs were. So Alex had to then come on and try to put them down. And of course, that made me pretty pissed off. Why try to put down things like that when dentsits, staffs and patients were so excited. Sure, I did it to jack up sales, right? So then we asked Alex to put up or shut up -- and he couldn't. Imagine that. As far as Dr. Steve and my call to him. Yes, I did call him, and he's had the greatest time talking about it over and over. So Steve, you don't think it's right for me to make a PERSONAL phone call to you, but you think it was OK for you to blast me on a forum, without knowing me or anything about the topic you were discussing? At least I contacted YOU in private. I simply asked you why, since you didn't even know me, you felt compelled to blast me like you did in public. I think that's fair. And if you remember, I appologized for bothering you with the phone call. I've been active in advancing dentistry now for 29 years. I've developed numerous techniques and performed numerous clinical studies. I've published many articles. And how much do you think I was ever paid for that? ZERO. And that was fine by me. I did it because of my enjoyment regarding all these things. Then when DentalTown started, I tried helping as many Townies as I could with various things such as marketing their practices. It's pretty upsetting to hear from well-meaning good dentists who just can't seem to make their practices work. After a while, many started asking me to write this all down in a book. My wife and I had only one financial concern when I was going to self-publish that book -- and that was that we hoped we'd not lose too much on it. Each and every book I've ever written has been at the strong request of many, many dentists. And all of a sudden, yes, some of them actually became popular. Gee, imagine that. Actually making some money by selling something that helps people. I guess none of you charge for your dentistry either. And when I do get miffed, it's not because of any worry about book sales. The things that my books teach (which none of you would know the first thing about, having never read one) are things that I am very passionate about, and that have helped other dentists over and over. If these topics had not helped so many dentists, I'd never have taken the time to write them. You guys just don't get it. Why not try simply writing something to make money. Go ahead, try it. It doesn't work. The passion needs to come first. The project needs to be done for the right reason, and that is NOT simply making money. But go ahead, just rattle off all this stuff you're assuming and telling each other that you're right. And I'll continue loving and being totally enthusiastic about dentistry, and instead of spending my time *****ing and moaning like you guys do, I'll be out there trying to make a difference. Hey Joley. None of this was meant for you. You're different than these guys. You look into things to genuinely try to figure them out. You don't go looking to destroy things without a real reason. You ask questions that make us think. These other folks on here simply love to gang up on something without even understanding what the heck they're talking about. Sad. What negative energy. So yes, if being totally enthusiastic about the things I've been able to do in dentistry, and the many dentists I've been able to help along the way, and being enthusiastic about the things I've written books about means I'm a salesman, then I'll take that as a compliment. Rod SignatureRod By the way, the Deep Bleaching Technique has NOT changed. Please show me an example of where it has. Products have changed, and there have been discussions about that. But the technique has not changed at all. And as far as etching goes, I never claimed to have been the first to do this. They used to etch teeth for a full minute. Right in my book it states that etching doesn't do much, and is the least important thing in the technique. But for some reason, many have grabbed on to this saying that it's the magic bullet in my technique. And also -- the pain that can bring you to your knees is not a factor of Deep Bleaching, but rather the in-office power bleaching. On one thread Louis Malcmacher (a popular speaker for Den-Mat) brought up how many posts there had been about sensitivity during Deep Bleaching causes. But he didn't do his homework. I directed him back to those same posts, and showed how each and every one was regarding the very first in-office bleaching visit, with the Den-Mat system. I showed him that this is absolutely no different than what Den-Mat routinely recommends (there is no etching, etc.), except that this was for only HALF the time Den-Mat recommends. He never replied. The point is that yes, bleaching does cause sensitivity in some patients. We've all seen that. The biggest reactions are on the very first visit, and as I said, there is NOTHING different on the first visit of Deep Bleaching than the regular in-office protocol of any bleaching product manufacturer. Oh, and yes, I AM working on a bleaching product that will give those WOW results withtout acute sensitivity. Every meeting I go to, dentists come up to me and ask what to do about the sensitivity, and the vast majority do not have my book and have not done a Deep Bleaching case. They ask me to try to figure something out. I get request for help on DentalTown, via phone calls and emails. But just watch. If I come out with a bleaching product that gets teeth just as white, but does't cause pain, I'll just bet that none of you (except for Joel) will applaud me for this breakthrough, and instead simply paint me as a money-grubbing salesman. Again, success starts out with wanting to help and being passionate about what you do. The rest follows. And there are always bystanders pointing fingers. Just trying to be complete in my reply. Hey, glad to entertain you guys. HOLY MOLY! Rod SignatureRod This is true ..... as stated, Rod has come up with some pretty good stuff. I am not on board with Rod's bleaching technique, but perhaps its because I do not have the opportunity to try it for myself. My general philosophy is to not allow any phosphoric acid (etchant) to be applied anywhere where it is not medically (dentally) needed. This means I am very concerned about dental assistants who slosh the stuff all over the labial surfaces of the teeth. Where does this come from? Ever have a new kitchen put in? You should not use Ajax or Old Dutch Cleanser on the counter tops. Okay, say you spill grape juice and it penetrates very deeply. You must remove it. Still you use the least invasive material to lift it back out. That's my thinking ... but I am willing to learn! Joel SignatureJoel344 Rod Kurthy, All bluster and NO substance. HOLY MOLY! Call me a LIAR if you want. You sound like the Moveon.org folks calling President Bush a liar at least 10 times a minute. My opinions are my opinions and just that. Read if you want and comment too. But, you seem to prefer the confines of Dental Town where your minions can support you when you are called out on something. It seems to me when someone does not kiss your posterior you attack them. Notice I did not call you a liar. By the way, the threads on Deep Bleaching and this new product you are involved(?) with are so convoluted that the folks at Dental Town are complaining... and No I am not going to reproduce the threads here. If the readers here want to read them they can go over to Dental Town and see for themselves. If you do not know what a blog is then you really need to get around more. Hey, has DenMat sued you yet over those scandelous and off the wall comments you made about their customer service over at Dental Town? Flap http://flapsblog.com [snip] >Notice I did not call you a liar. Me neither, all I did was refer to his as a salesman,,,,,,, afterall he was and still is selling books. I don't know if he sells DVD's as well. I don't mind if he wants to sell lots of books and DVD's. All power to him. But, if you are selling stuff, admit it. If his books help other dentists provide better care, I hope he sells a truck-full of books. Just don't tell me how he does this at a loss, out of the goodness of his heart. One can sell lots of stuff and still be helping mankind. Just admit it. http://www.dentaltown.com/idealbb/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=32681&num=50&s essionID={368D7DCA-4501-480C-992E-F8B3D3E19BF9}&pageNo=1 >Holy Cow! I just finished perusing the site for the first time. I can't believe the bile coming out of there regarding dentaltown. This Steve Mancuso character goes out of his way to sling mud and vile at us Townies. IMHO, the site is difficult to read and does not flow well. Does that sound like something I would have done? >http://www.dentaltown.com/idealbb/view.asp?mode=viewtopic&topicID=32681&num=50&s essionID={368D7DCA-4501-480C-992E-F8B3D3E19BF9}&pageNo=1 REPLY: Definitely not! That Steve Mancuso ... he is always a gentleman ...... (That is borrowed from what we always say about Steve Bornfeld). Joel Dr. Steve writes, quoting, Holy Cow! I just finished perusing the site for the first time. I can't believe the bile coming out of there regarding dentaltown. This Steve Mancuso character goes out of his way to sling mud and vile at us Townies. IMHO, the site is difficult to read and does not flow well. Steve writes, Does that sound like something I would have done? SignatureJoel344 JOEL I can't believe we now have to deal with this guy on SMD. It was so nice not to have to see his long defensive salesman's posts. It's like the door to door salesman that just won't leave. Alexander Vasserman DDS Wrote: > JOEL > I can't believe we now have to deal with this guy on SMD. > It was so nice not to have to see his long defensive salesman's posts. > It's like the door to door salesman that just won't leave. So Alex, you think you should be able to simply have entire thread that do nothing but provide this crap about me, and I should no respond? That is exactly what I'd expect from you. What in the worl have you ever contributed to dentistry that makes you so above mos dentists anyway? Care to give me a list of your accomplishments tha have benefitted dentistry and the patients we serve? I bet it will b just as long as the book on Italian WWII heros. No, I dont' plan on sticking around routinely here. The negativity i just too much. Hey, do you EVER say anything nice about anything o anyone? I've gotten some nice private messages here, and I lov reading Joel's stuff. He is far more brilliant than most of you eve understand. So from time to time I look in to get my Joel fix. But if you have any particular business with me that you want to finis here on this forum, I'm happy to stick around until we're done. Otherwise, I think I've addressed all I need to, unless anyone ha anymore discussion that needs a response. Otherwise I'll not butt in again for a while. Aside from all the above, I'd just like to make an observation tha really is meaningless, but something that I happened to think about. This forum -- DentalTown -- and genX are soooo different from eac other. It's amazing. And I think that this is a good thing and ver necessary. The ability to get together with other docs is fantastic. I've been practicing for over 27 years and doing reseach for over 29. Years ago, it got pretty lonely out there, and when questions came up nobody to trust to ask. That's changed. I do wish everyone here, (even Flap -- OMG, can't believe I said that the very best with this forum. On DentalTown I have always stood u for this forum and suggested that though it's obviously not exactly th forum for me, it is nonetheless a benefit for many. Ro -- Ro I just re-read my last post and it occured to me that it might sound like I was addressing this entire forum when I said, " Hey, do you EVER say anything nice about anything or anyone?" I want to make it clear that this was directed specifically to Alex Rod SignatureRod > Alexander Vasserman DDS Wrote: > JOEL > > I can't believe we now have to deal with this guy on SMD. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Rod-- >Rod-------------------------------------------------------------------- - >---Rod's Profile: http://dentalcom.net/forum/member.php?userid=253View >this thread: http://dentalcom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2616 Well, FWIW, Alex has contributed much advice on the SMD forum, and I am definitely one recipient. He may not have your volume of research under his belt, but he _does_ contribute quite allot here. Re the DrSteve thread on your Forum: Those who know DrS here on the SMD appreciate him deeply, as he is always willing to give of his knowledge and experience. There have been many times over the past year and a half where his inputs have saved a treatment from being referred out of my little shop. He is HUMAN, with his own set of pet peeves, preferences and prejudices, just like ALL OF US. The point is that he sincerely believes in what he is doing for his patients, just like _you_ do. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you two are actually more alike in your approaches to dentistry than either of you realize. You might want to check each other out on more neutral ground, like say, at a conference. In regards to phoning him on a Sunday, being a dentist, I think it would have been more appropriate to phone his secretary and ask for a telephone conference. He would have been in a 'dentistry' frame of mind instead of a 'father' one. Unfortunately, I personally don't know you or your work. While I _am_ a registered Townie (stove99pipe), I only went over there a couple of times for something very specific: profound dissatisfaction with the Biolase Laser. I found no one in that discussion group with whom I could hosestly voice my problems and ask for solutions; they were all singing the praises of the machine as if Biolase could do no wrong. I didn't stay, as I didn't want to get banned from DT. This leads me to the two major criticisms of DT that I may suggest you have over there: lack of objectivity and nondisclosure (in some forums), and being web based (too slow for non-highspeed connections). The disclosure issue may apply here as well, I am fully aware. That said, there is allot of good info being transmitted amoung yourselves as well, and I do read your DT magazine when it comes (Canadian delivery is iffy at times). I particularly appreciate the short blurbs describing some technique or other, even if one of the goals is to announce an upcoming seminar. That happens elsewhere as well. So what's the point? Just that there are allot of good heads here in this forum, you'd be surprised; and if you hung around a bit more, you might find some interesting stuff. It loads allot faster that your web-based forum does as well. And yes, Joel always has some really cool stuff to report. And by all means 'drop in' often, as I would like to at least hear what you have to say. Thank You. SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >> Alexander Vasserman DDS Wrote: > JOEL >> > I can't believe we now have to deal with this guy on SMD. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >to check each other out on more neutral ground, like say, at a >conference. Forgive me for having doubts on that one. >In regards to phoning him on a Sunday, being a dentist, I think it would >have been more appropriate to phone his secretary and ask for a >telephone conference. He would have been in a 'dentistry' frame of mind >instead of a 'father' one. Well,,,, um,,,, I doubt he would have approached it any other way. >Unfortunately, I personally don't know you or your work. While I _am_ a >registered Townie (stove99pipe), I only went over there a couple of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >the praises of the machine as if Biolase could do no wrong. I didn't >stay, as I didn't want to get banned from DT. Some of my postings to DT (years ago) were purged out the record there. >This leads me to the two major criticisms of DT that I may suggest you >have over there: lack of objectivity and nondisclosure (in some forums), >and being web based (too slow for non-highspeed connections). Last time I checked in (one time this year--just recently) the pages loaded very fast. A big improvment. >The disclosure issue may apply here as well, I am fully aware. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Thank You. >SP > >This leads me to the two major criticisms of DT that I may suggest you > >have over there: lack of objectivity and nondisclosure (in some forums), > >and being web based (too slow for non-highspeed connections). > > Last time I checked in (one time this year--just recently) the pages > loaded very fast. A big improvment. Yessuh... they do load faster, but they are still charged with graphics for every poster plus all the HTML that goes into a heavily linked page. You have to admit: it is _nothing_ like UseNet for ease of access. Cheers SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >Alexander Vasserman DDS Wrote: >> JOEL [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >have benefitted dentistry and the patients we serve? I bet it will be >just as long as the book on Italian WWII heros. We really do not need racial slurs on a public forum. I have never picked on RK's ethnicity. Does the above paragraph mean that RK is far superior to any other dentist and should therefore never be criticized? I have heard that same arguement in each of his attacks against me. Rather entertaining if it wasn't for the number of fresh new dentists who figure he must be right since he has so many postings on DT. >No, I dont' plan on sticking around routinely here. The negativity is >just too much. Hey, do you EVER say anything nice about anything or >anyone? I've gotten some nice private messages here, and I love >reading Joel's stuff. He is far more brilliant than most of you even >understand. So from time to time I look in to get my Joel fix. We all love Joel. He knows it, too. We might disagree wtih Joel's style of posting, but we love the man, his courage, his tenacity, his honesty, his ambition, his character, etc. >But if you have any particular business with me that you want to finish >here on this forum, I'm happy to stick around until we're done. >Otherwise, I think I've addressed all I need to, unless anyone has >anymore discussion that needs a response. I think we would all be smart to stop contributing to this thread. Myself included. Just wish RK would promise not to try to blacken my name on DT again. >Otherwise I'll not butt in again for a while. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for this forum and suggested that though it's obviously not exactly the >forum for me, it is nonetheless a benefit for many. One big difference with SMD and IDF, genX, DT. etc, is that we welcome discussion with non-dental professionals. >Rod You mean like a USED car salesman. Now I know why when I attended dental school in the 1970's it was considered unethical to advertise at all. Or to claim superiority of technique or material. This prohibition was a result of the type of crap that Rod Kurthy exudes. Is his advertising (oh, I mean marketing) false and misleading? Caveat emptor is all I can say. Oh, the good old days. Yes, Alexander we may have to put up with Rod and other dentist salesmnn. At least here at SMD his claims can be vetted. At Dental Town no criticism of Rod or the other 200 or so regulars is allowed. Ask Steve. Flap http://flapsblog.com Well Flap, Caveat emptor just doesn't fit. The following is the definition of caveat emptor -- "the commercial principle that the buyer is responsible for making sure that goods bought are of a reasonable quality, unless the seller is offering a guarantee of their quality." And in this case, this used car salesman DOES guarantee the quality, and gee, he says it right out front, right on his DVD to the world. Imagine that! So better think of some other cute phrase. Flap Wrote: > You mean like a USED car salesman. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://flapsblog.com SignatureRod Rod Kurthy, It is the correct phrase. Cute? If you think so. Caveat Emptor = Let the Buyer Beware. "Caveat emptor is Latin for "let the buyer beware". Before statutory law, the buyer had no warranty of the quality of goods. In many jurisdictions, the law now requires that goods must be of "merchantable quality". However, this implied warranty can be difficult to enforce, and may not apply to all products. Hence, buyers are still advised to be cautious. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor Caveat Dentist. Let the Dentist Beware. If the Shoe Fits, Rod. Flap http://flapsblog.com >You mean like a USED car salesman. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >http://flapsblog.com Indeed, check out the thread based on my complaint about being called by RK on a Sunday afternnon on my emergency dental number so he could harass me about a NG posting made so many months before, that I had basically forgotten typing it. The responses in support of his statement were entertaining. >>You mean like a USED car salesman. >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > harass me about a NG posting made so many months before, that I had > basically forgotten typing it. You're kidding, right? It's for reasons like that why I choose to maintain anonymity on the internet. If anybody needs to contact me via e-mail, I have an anonymous e-mail that I can send and receive messages from. Although, it's rare that I ever use my real name there either...unless I've known someone for awhile. >> Indeed, check out the thread based on my complaint about being called >> by RK on a Sunday afternnon on my emergency dental number so he could [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >can send and receive messages from. Although, it's rare that I ever use my >real name there either...unless I've known someone for awhile. Same here. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Kill this thread. -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com Why? >Why? Why not ? -- W_B Take out the G'RBAGE wubbabubbazG@RBAGEyahoo.com And give into the satisifaction? >>>You mean like a USED car salesman. >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >You're kidding, right? It's for reasons like that why I choose to maintain >anonymity on the internet. I wish I was kidding. After that, I figured the hell with DT and stopped visiting there. Howard called my office personality one time, (prior to this). His behavior surprised me just as much. >>>>You mean like a USED car salesman. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > stopped visiting there. Howard called my office personality one time, > (prior to this). His behavior surprised me just as much. Nothing he might've said would surprise me about the guy. I hate this personal bashing. I wis you guys could resolve your differences Rod is not a used car salesman. He genuinely cares about dentists and patients. Rod is not perfect in his temperment, but if you knew him, you would understand that his motives are not simpl to profit himself. I am sorry if you caught the non-perfect side of Rod. (His temper can get the best of him at times). I wish you could just get to know him as a friend and you would truly see what he is about I am also sorry if you had bad experiences on DT. I ca understand that frustration as well, but in reality main goal of DT are to benefit dentists and dental professionals I agree that some of the advertising biases over there can get tiring and old at times, but the reality is that this advertising fund the board,the magazine and all of the other activities they offer It is a private business so if they make a profit...so what? Mor power to them, I say Oh well. I know you are never going over there. Your opinion are set. That is fine and that is certainly your perogative! However I really hate to see you continue to bash well-meaning people like Rod Kurthy. I wish you guys could just move beyond past grievances. I know RK is game to do so, but I do not know most of the sci med people at all I hope we can all get along Su Su -- Su > I wish you guys could just move beyond past grievances. I know > RK is game to do so, but I do not know most of the sci med people > at all. Hello Sue! Are you related to RK or to DT? Just curious. Cheers, Signature. Amatus . > > I hate this personal bashing. I wish [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Sue > I really hate to see you continue to bash well-meaning people like Rod >Kurthy. I wish you guys could just move beyond past grievances. I know >RK is game to do so, but I do not know most of the sci med people at >all.I hope we can all get along.SueSue-- IIRC, it was Dr. Kurthy who came in with guns blazing over something that Alex V. said. He could have allowed Alex to voice his opinion and then done the same and left it at that. Dr. Kurthy has been in research for 29 years. That is very commendable. We need professionals like him to iron out the big questions. -BUT- This does NOT mean he has licence and monopoly on dental _truths_. There are some enormously talented wet-finger dentists in this gang, and they all have above-average communications skills. This means that they would be excellent professors or clinicians in thier own rights. Perhaps, just perhaps, Rod Kurthy should hang around here for more that just a 'Joel Fix'. Perhaps he could learn communications skills from some of the regulars here. Finally, Sue, it takes two sides to have a war. If Dr. Kurthy is so experienced in dealing with dentists as a lecturer and teacher, I think he should have shown that by his own example. Thanks SP SignatureFinally: take out the TRASHH >I hate this personal bashing. I wish >you guys could resolve your differences. > >Rod is not a used car salesman. He genuinely >cares about dentists and patients. That is great! >Rod is not perfect in his temperment, but if you knew >him, you would understand that his motives are not simply >to profit himself. I am sorry if you caught the non-perfect >side of Rod. (His temper can get the best of >him at times). Temper is part of a man. It is an integral part of the personality. How one reacts to stress and to frustration says a lot about a person. >I wish you could just get to know him as a friend and you >would truly see what he is about. So,,,,,,,,,,,, I assume you know him IRL? >I am also sorry if you had bad experiences on DT. I can >understand that frustration as well, but in reality main goals >of DT are to benefit dentists and dental professionals. Not so much a problem *on* DT as a problem being called IRL by the owner of the site and by a prominent poster of the site. >I agree that some of the advertising biases over there can get >tiring and old at times, but the reality is that this advertising funds >the board,the magazine and all of the other activities they offer. But,,,,,,,,,,,,, the advertising is enough to totally taint the experience. Take the "magazine" for example. I cannot remember one article or discussion appearing without a matching paid advertisement. It is possible there have been some more recently, as I do not open the "magaxine" any more. >It is a private business so if they make a profit...so what? More >power to them, I say. I have no objection to making a profit, so long as it is clear that is the goal. >Oh well. I know you are never going over there. Your opinions >are set. That is fine and that is certainly your perogative!! > >However I really hate to see you continue to bash well-meaning >people like Rod Kurthy. >I wish you guys could just move beyond past grievances. I know >RK is game to do so, but I do not know most of the sci med people >at all. I already said I would like to drop it. I try hard to not use his full name in anything that might be read out of context and misinterpreted so that any lay-people doing a search for his name would not pull up my posts out of the context of the entire discussion. >I hope we can all get along. > >Sue > >Sue I wish both of you Sue's <VBG> well. Thanks Dr. Steve My best to you as well I don't know what IRL is, but I do not know Rod personally. I hav nothing against him, but I can understand your frustration. I would b very angry if someone called my business (or my home for that matter just to chew me out. I think it is wonderful that you are able to no hold an extreme grudge. I belive that is a healthy way to live *My Impression:* I see Rod as a guy who is very enthusiastic about hi work. He has always treated me respectfully on the boards except in th very beginning when I was a complete PITA on DT because I saw him as pompous salesman & self-promoter and bully. He started chewing ou someone else who did not deserve it. I got really angry and just like little kid, I wanted to KICK HIM Yet, these 2 people have since made up and I realized that it was that over-reacted. I also came to see Rod in a new light. He is jus a guy who is very passionate about what he does. He has worked hard t successfully bond with people on DT and to promote his DB and marketin books etc. He sees this as a win-win. He is proud of his works. He is not trying not "dupe" people. He genuinely wants to see othe dentists succeed and he genuinely cares about his staff and hi patients. He is a family man who cares deeply about wife and his kids So from that regard, he really is no different from many good folks. Yet like anyone else, he is not perfect in his temperment. (Maybe I a being completely snowed, but I really do not think so) In any regard, I have learned through DT, that online conflict reall stresses me out. Joel has remarked that SMD is much better than DT i that regard, so I was really excited to see all of the SMD folks here My interest in dentistry stems from my volunteer work for our MN Denta Association and GKAS program. I am interested in dental access issues I hope that my presence as a non-dental professional does not push an good people away OK. Time to get back to my FT job (Medtronic). Take care & bes wishes Sincerely Su Dr. Steve Wrote: > On Thu, 18 A |
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